Keep the Three Burritoes
by Unselds on Feb 7, 2012 1:43 PM EST
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Every day we have a new post about trade scenarios for Andray Blatche, Nick Young and JaVale McGee. They all sound reasonable, but it got me thinking. Before they were shipped out, Antawn Jamison, Caron Butler and Brenden Haywood were the starters.
The blow up thrust these three into the starting lineup, and gave us a chance to see what they can do. And what did we learn? None of them are starters. I would argue that JaVale and Nick are greatly diminishing their value on the open market with each passing game. So here's a thought: Why not keep them as backups?
We have been assuming that someone is going to pay these guys big money. Is that really true? We don't know of any really tantalizing offers for any of the three, and Nick got no interest as an RFA. Dray is making nowhere near max money. So if there is a way to sign them at backup prices, would you want them around?
All three are talented, but they lack one thing in common: maturity. Obviously if you get a great offer for one, you do it. But maybe as veterans they will become more mature. Whatever happens to Young and McGee this summer might be a very humbling experience for them that swallowing a spoonful of cinnemon was not.
I was all for amnestying Cheeseburger Cheeseburger Dray until I read you only get to do it once under this labor agreement. Not sure I would want to swallow that bitter pill for a contract that is nowhere near the collasal fuckup of the Arenas contract. (As an aside, can you believe the Gilbert cancer of immaturity continues to plague this team so badly?)
So is there something to be said for keeping all three? You have to wonder if this benching is making Dray work harder to lose weight and get in game shape. You also have to wonder if Nick and JaVale in small doses would contribute to a winning franchise -- albeit with smaller roles. Dray and Vale could also give you backups at two positions, and you might be able to squeeze two of the redundant Booker/Vesely/Singletons into the rotation. Replace Young and Blatche in the starting lineups with your draft picks and get one awesome free agent.
Maybe Nick and Vale will get paid. But maybe they won't. Maybe you need to hold your powder to use the amnesty later on McGee (Gulp).
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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100% agree
This is pretty much why grunfield drafted them..to be solid backups! I have always said that Ernie is a genius at drafting players who should come off the bench haha but if we could somehow find some stars or at least starters in the draft and keep “the three burritos” I think we will have a very solid team that can compete. Blatche isn’t tough enough. Nick can’t do anything but score a few jumpers and McGee can jump. All three are not mentally tough enough to lead teams and be starters.
Duck Fallas!!
by believe_the_curse on Feb 7, 2012 3:10 PM EST via mobile reply actions
You can only use the amnesty clause
On contracts that were on your books when the CBA was signed. So we couldnt amnesty whatever the new contract we might give McGee is, and there really isnt another “big” contract on the books other than Rashard who we could buy out (or allow the buyout to be a MAJOR trade chip next year).
IMO Amnesty-ing Baltche is an absolute slam-dunk no-brainer.
by Maroon and Black on Feb 7, 2012 3:28 PM EST reply actions
Ok my bad
I get it now. Still not sure it’s necessary to amnesty him. Is this contract really going to keep us from achieving our end goal?
its not his contract that's the problem
It’s his poor work-ethic and me-first attitude that need to be removes from the roster
cant you just cut a player in the nba
i know you have to pay his salary and it counts. but cant you just cut him?
by les boulez bomber on Feb 8, 2012 1:43 AM EST up reply actions
The problem with neither of them is talent
One can debate if they are starters or not but starting or as backup pieces, they are very useful and worth re-signing at the right price.
However, they also represent the everything what is wrong with this club. From low (and I mean very, very low) basketball IQ, to the off the court shaninigans varying from fighting in clubs to alter ego’s and a Michael Jackson Fro at an 80’s party. And from running back on D while your team still has the ball to completely losing Ray Allen running off screens. This team needs a fresh start, fresh blood and no just no more of the same ol’ olé.
We all know McGee has tremendous potential. We all know that Blatche can be a 18-9-3 guy with a steal and a block a night. We all know that it’s hard to find 15 starting SG’s better than Nick, eventhough he is one-dimensional. Talent has never been those guys problem. Not getting out of their own way is. Yes, maybe I am trowing them into 1 group together unfairly but still, they are the faces of the old era, simply because they were here before John and because they are under performing to a certain extend, caused by nothing but themselves.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
Too immature to accept backup roles
I can’t see Young, Blatche or McGee going back to the bench without being tremendously cancerous. Young thinks he’s worth $9 million per year. JaVale thinks he’s worth $12 million per year. Blatche already makes $7 million per year. If they already have those numbers in mind, they’ll be salty about not getting the cash and even more resentful towards reverting back to reserve roles. They have to be gone since because they were made into part of the core without earning it.
Totally agree about their potential to be cancerous
But on the other hand, imagine the team a year from now with rookies and free agents that are better than them and getting more minutes. The very problem with these three is that they are not leaders and they don’t have dominant personalities. Isn’t it possible they could be overtaken by guys who do things the “right” way on the team? It has been well covered here that even though these guys drive us nuts, getting rid of just one sets us back after years trying to develop them. Plugging in another rookie has a strong possibility of that player having the same weaknesses, and more because they are rookies. I mean, I think the benching of Blatche has seen positive results so far, and benching the other two later could do the same. We just don’t have the players to step in front of them yet.
The argumen that we "invested so much"
Is the reason people lose a lot of money in poker. People say “well, I’ve put this much in the pot, I have to keep playing.”
Did Boston invest in Sebastian Telfair and Al Jefferson? Did Miami invest in Michael Beasely? How about OKC in Jeff Green? You smile and say “see ya” when it’s time to get rid of them.
In the NBA, the only reason you want to resign your own player is because he’s better or because you can exceed the salary cap. If you can get somebody who is equally talented from another team, there’s not much reason to pick you own player. You retain your own player to show loyalty to other players/build a team spirit. That if you’re a Wizard, you’re our guy. But, I have not seen loyalty as being a particular point of emphasis in these players. None of them have talked about a home team discount. Second, you retain your own player because the fans are attached to them. Honestly, I think the Wizards fan wouldn’t shed that many tears over the departure of any of these guys. I know a few people are particularly passionate about them, but these guys have been here for a while and they lose a lot. Third, you retain your own players because they’re familiar with your system. We’re likely going to have a new coach next year and a whole new system. Given that, I don’t see any particular reason to keep any of these guys over players who have comparable skills.
To be honest, I think it’s time to get rid of all three of them, if reasonable value can be gotten back.
I hear what you're saying
But I didn’t mean that I’m nostalgic and they’re “our” knuckleheads so we don’t want to let them go. I mean a replacement if he’s a rookie will take just as long or longer to become an NBA player as these three did. By that time, John Wall will be standing on the ledge of the Verizon Center roof. I believe in addition by subtraction (see Arenas, Gilbert), but I also think this idea that they are infecting the team might be overstated.
I'm not sure I made that argument?
I said “they didn’t seem particularly loyal to the franchise” and “they lose a lot.” The second one is just true. When they have been on the team and it was winning, they were not playing. When they played, the team lost. Insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting a different result.
As for the “not particularly loyal.” None of these players have talked about giving the Wizards a discount to resign them. Reports seem to indicate both McGee and Young want to play elsewhere.
Whether or not that has caused any problems in the locker room, I can’t say. But, I don’t see any reason to make these guys “Wizards for Life.” I’d much rather have different players at this point. Not sure if I want to get rid of all of them, but at least 2 of 3 should be gone.
I don't know if we can technically amnesty McGee if we extend him or re-sign him to a new deal
The stretch provision is our best bet and that will hurt the cap too.a
We can't
the contract had be signed under the previous CBA. So, we can only amnesty his current $2.5m contract
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 8, 2012 3:19 AM EST up reply actions
Sometimes a change in scenery is best for all parties involved
and whereas I agree with you on their potential off the bench, this is one of those situations where a fresh environment is best for all parties involved. There is too much baggage at this point.
by les boulez bomber on Feb 8, 2012 1:41 AM EST reply actions
the other consideration is JW does not like any of them or want them around.
and if he is your franchise guy, it makes no sense to piss him off for something that does not matter. all three of those guys are replaceable. JW less so.
by les boulez bomber on Feb 8, 2012 1:45 AM EST reply actions
John is not the franchise player yet
He is our most important piece (and maybe our only one) but he is not our best player. He certainly hasn’t showed he is a Lebron or DHoward type of impact player who should be consulted by the GM. Plus, if we are winning it doesn’t matter if he likes his teammates.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 8, 2012 3:23 AM EST up reply actions
Not our best player?
John Wall is:
2nd in points
1st in assists
3rd in rebounding
2nd in steals
4th in blocks
I would also point out that he is the primary focus on most of the defenses we face.
Who else possibly could be our best player?
In terms of production (PER) and offensive/defensive winshare Javale is. Wall is barely above avarage in terms of PER.
On our team
Wall is 8th(!?) on winshare/48, McGee 2nd
Wall has a the second highest usage, combined with the highest turnover%, a low FG and TS percentage and an extremely low effective FG%.
Most importantly, Javale a net positive in PER differential, Wall a net negative. I don’t want to make this about Javale though, but you asked me who is the best player right now. I think it’s ludacris to say McGee is our future instead of Wall. But in terms of production RIGHT NOW, he is the more valuable player over Wall on this team.
Ow, and I think Nick Young is the primary focus of most defenses
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 8, 2012 4:03 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2012.html
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 8, 2012 4:03 AM EST up reply actions
You were expecting Wall to be like LeBron or DHoward???
by Kenny Sky Walker on Feb 9, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Yes. Not playing style of course but I expected him to have that level of star power.
It’s a star league and I thought John Wall was going to be our superstar.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 9, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
he may yet Dutch, he may yet
this month he is at 18pts/7rebs/5asst on 47%FG
Rubio’s month comes in at:
9pts/8assts/4rebs on 35%FG
remember it was only a few weeks ago half the board seemed to be wishing we could trade Wall for Rubio straight up….how about now?
What is this? Elementary school?
If Wall can’t work with players he doesn’t like (even if your perceptions are true), then he’s not truly a leader or franchise player.
by hotplate on Feb 8, 2012 8:53 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I think you're mixing up a few things
There are are two kinds of dislike: personal dislike and professional dislike. Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen personally disliked Dennis Rodman. However, they respected him professionally and could play with him. In contrast, when a player is professional disliked for his failures in a game, the superior player and the coaching staff should make a point to get rid of the player/fix the problem in his game.
I think Wall dislikes McGee’s game., not McGee himself. He’s frustrated to not have big man who knows how to move without the ball or know how to set picks. He seemed so much more comfortable with Trevor Booker, who knew how to set a screen. That’s a professional gripe. It’s “you’re not doing your job.”
I have no idea how Wall feels about all the players, but given that he managed the egos in Kentucky pretty well, I think his issues are less personal, and more professional. A lot of these guys are low basketball IQ players who don’t know how to play. Losing because you’re not as talented is tough, but losing because your guys are playing the wrong way has to eat him alive.
by GJennings on Feb 8, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If only it were so easy as "John dislikes Javale's game"
or “Dray is cancer”
Nights like last blow to smithereens the notion we have guys ready to get it done if only Javale, or Dray, or Nick werent ‘selfishly’ in the way.
Not Sure what you're saying
My argument: McGee’s game doesn’t seem to fit with Wall. He sits bad screens and doesn’t run the floor well. It frustrates Wall because McGee doesn’t do his job. It’s not a “personal dislike.” I’m not sure how last night game proved or disproved that point.
In contrast to Wall’s struggle with McGee, you saw how John plays with a player does his job against the Knicks. Trevor Booker knows how to run the pick and roll. He and John both had a great game. I’m not saying either of them has it down “perfectly.” But, Booker sets good picks. If both of them improve their mid-range shot, that’s a viable option for the Wizards.
Last night, McGee’s struggles last night were not a result of a chemistry issue with John Wall. He couldn’t stay out of foul trouble against Tyson Chandler. He had the same problem with Dwight Howard. McGee is not a particularly good defender against post players. It’s another “issue” with McGee.
As for Young, he was 3-11 with 1 assist. He played selfishly. Was his play outcome determent.. Probably not, but it supports the argument that it’s one of the causes.
It’s hard to say what would happen if McGee and Young played with a high basketball IQ and were more team oriented. At this point in their careers, I think it’s fairly unlikely to happen. However, I think with their talent level, it could have been something impressive. Unfortunately, either because of problems with our talent development or with their capacity and desire to improve their understanding of the game, this will probably never happen.
The idea that Young won't get an offer
Seems very unrealistic to think that Young won’t get any offers. I’m sure he realizes that he won’t be getting a max contract offer but there are teams who would offer him a Dray-size contract, poarticularly playoff-caliber teams who could use Nick’s shooting skills without having him be the team’s leading scorer or its number 1 scoring option. I’m thinking of teams like Utah, OKC, Boston, LAC, Miami and NY.
agree
I think the reason he didn’t get any offers had more to do with his “restricted” status than his talent. Teams knew that Wizards would match any reasonable offer, so why bother.
That theory has been tossed around a lot
I’m not sure it’s true. For example, the Clipper retained Jordan and indicated they were planning on doing so. They had a lot of room under the cap, but Golden State still chose to make an offer.
The “everybody wanted him, but they were scared off” theory didn’t apply to Jordan. Why do we keep pretending it applies to Nick Young. It’s also not like they didn’t have a decent amount of time. Nick Young signed the qualifying offer pretty late.
Nick wanted 9 million. Nobody would pay him that. That’s the most plausible explanation.
Nick wanted $9m, nobody wanted to pay that but the sense was that anyting in the neighbourrhood of $7m would be matched by the Wizards
So no offers were made.
Most likely Ernie did try to get him to agree on 5 years starting at $6m or so and Nick declined. Ernie then hoped that if Nick didn’t get anyone to offer him 4 years starting at $9m, he would go for the 5 years starting at $6 but Nick took the QO instead.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 8, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
I did, but not anymore
Nick has obviously regressed to his old self.
The coming-off-a-curl-catch-and-shoot and spot-up-corner-3 Nick Young we saw towards the end of the 09-10 season and during the 10-11 season is one I would love to re-sign.
Unfortunately he has returned to his iso-dribble-contested-brick ways from old. He is clearly playing for himself and doesn’t seem to want to be here. So now I am not willing to pay him $6m this summer anymore.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 9, 2012 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Except there were comments by Flip
That indicated the Wizards were open to a sign and trade. I think the Wizards were perfectly willing to move Young for a pick in the very deep 2012 draft or acquire other assets.
I just think it’s absurd when other teams make offers to restricted free agents to assume that they were scared off because the Wizards could match when other free agents in the exact same scenario were matched.
That's because it was the Clips
Who are notoriously cheap. I think different operating rules apply as to RFA’s from the Clippers (and same with the Hornets this coming year if they’re still owned by the league). Teams will challenge the Clippers (and they will, I believe, do so with the Hornets this year) because there is a shot that it could work. Utah and Charlotte too because they are known to be cheap and low on cash.
I think Nick’s situation is comparable to Ben Gordon a few years ago. He was a one-dimensional, flawed 2-guard who didn’t get an offer when he was an RFA, then signed the QO, and got a decently-sized (and overpaid) payday the next year.
by Kenny Sky Walker on Feb 9, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
But teams have tried to sign our restricted free agents
Bucks signed Etan Thomas.
Knicks signed Jared Jefferies.
So I don’t think teams are “scared” of us.
In contrast, Odom indicated to the Clippers that he wanted to be free of them. So they let him walk in restricted free agency. They were planning on keeping him. They ahve also resigned other restricted free agents.
But isn't $6 mil the going rate for a bench guy?
You wouldn’t pay $6 mil for Nick? Instead of 8 or 9? How about $5 mil? I’m just curious how much a sixth man is worth (and I mean reasonably, not Ben Gordon).
I think you've got to cut Dray because
he’s an idiot/cancer, do you really want JaVale’s mom around when he’s riding pine 30 minutes a game, and Nick Young is gone, gone, gone . . . for less $$ than he’s making now. He’ll be sitting the bench for somebody else next season.
With Lewis, Blatche, McGee and Nick Young gone (4 current starters, mind you)
And atleast 1 good rookie coming in, things start to look a bit better.
However, we have just to much mediocre or flat out underwhelming young talent in Crawford, Vesely, Mack, Singleton, Booker, Seraphin and Wall.
I feel that we should focus on Wall and our new rookie. The rest of our ‘assests’ should be packaged to get another lottery pick in combination with taking on a bad contract.
We have something what looks like a descent core with Wall and the two 2012 rookies. We’ll probably also have 2 or 3 remaining young players, hopefully Booker and Singleton but we have to give up something to get the 2nd lottery pick.
After that we need 1 good FA signing and 2 or 3 solid vets who can play in the rotation. Who we target here, depends on the draft but 1 thing is for sure: we are going to have to overpay bigtime to get them to sign here.
This would give us roughly 10 players and the roster can than be filled out with vet minimum dudes or D league types.
We can than really focus on developing Wall and the 2 lottery rookies and hope some of the returning ‘assets’ will catch on, if not, it’s not disasterous. We’ll still not make the playoffs or maybe just get an 8th seat but we would be crawling back to respectability and I think that’s about the best we can realistically do.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
Nobody thinks the Three Burritoes have any value as backups?
Wow. I expected more lukewarm support for them at bargain prices, including Dray who isn’t exactly breaking the bank. I don’t really buy into the notion that we would benefit from cleaning house. Either way, we really suck. And I’m just not optimistic that “the plan” will be executed correctly. Something tells me you need to keep one of these three to make all the right moves.
Not on this team, no.
Dray on the Lakers, yes
Nick on the Clippers, yes
Javale on the Wareiors, yes
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 10, 2012 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
Keeping them as backups
Assumes that we’ll have actual starters. Let’s not put the cart before the horse.
Not really
The starters come either in free agency or from our lotto picks outplaying these guys after they are re-signed.
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