should the Vesely pick get Ernie fired?
by everybodylookin on Feb 4, 2012 8:47 PM EST
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PrintI mean even before he was drafted it was reported that he lacked many basketball skills. He decided to use a top 10 pick on a player who has no ability on offense and was too weak to defend most PFs. He wasted a pick on a player who at his very best is a decent glue guy. With him on the floor they pretty much have to play 4 on 5 because he can't shoot or get to the basket. The only quality he has is a little bit of basketball IQ
The pick would've been much better off going with someone like Kemba/Brandon Knight to play a Jason Terry type role or Kawhi Leonard.
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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They could have just waited in the 2nd round and got the non-athletic version of Jan Vesely, Chandler Parsons.
Sadly, the wizards were one pick away from a potential superstar, Jonas V
I was hoping they could trade the pick to Houston, get their 14 and 23 picks, and get Nikola Vucevic and Kawhi Leonard. But that is wishful thinking.
Vesely might end up being a good player, but a lottery pick for him was a BIGTIME REACH
by GoWizGo on Feb 4, 2012 9:50 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
What I've been thinking since the draft
Vesely and Parson are essentially the same mold of player, except Parsons is already much more developed and can shoot.
Vesely has more potential and is more athletic and watching his Partizan games after the pick put me at ease. Problem is, he doesn’t seem to fit in with this squad like I thought he would. Wiz run no offense with him whether it be the pick and roll finish or the post up which would take advantage of his size and athleticism and create mismatches.
So, no, I don’t think Grunfield should be fired for the pick. I’m just confused as to how they planned on making him work in this offense
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
post up? He had Mo Williams alone on the block last night and chose to pass to Wall for the circus attempt rather than shoot with a 6'1" defender on him.
Is that high bball iq? I’m not sure you can assume his problems on offense are the Wiz using him incorrectly. Last night in garbage time vs the Clips deep bench he still didnt score while the game was wide open, that’s troubling.
by DCrez on Feb 5, 2012 10:18 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How bout the whole Clippers defense sagged into the paint?
Ves hit the open man. Wall drove instead.
by zeke5123 on Feb 5, 2012 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i'm talking about the 1stQ (i believe)
Ves was alone with Mo Williams on his back, if you are 7’ and dont try and score there I’m sorry but you are playing scared.
Talking about the same play.
Two men were coming at Ves. This prevented him from making the move he wanted to so he hit the open man. Good, high IQ play.
by zeke5123 on Feb 6, 2012 12:48 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Problem is, he doesn’t seem to fit in with this squad
I don’t know of any player on this squad that fits. Maybe any player in the NBA. Who would you pick that would fit?
Ernie should not be fired for this pick
Ernie should be fired because of his failure to draft/acquire inside defenders & rebounding strength. We had that need in 2009 and Ernie went for Miller & Foye. I don’t fault Ernie for passing on inside power players in 2010 to get Wall. But ignoring it again in 2011 to go for another soft athletic project was the last straw. I’m not saying Ernie’s the worst GM or that he’s never acquired a good player or made a good trade. But his overall record these past three seasons has been pretty poor. If Ted wants to reward Ernie with another contract, well, it’s his team and his money.
by Koperro on Feb 5, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
vesely alone won't get him fired
it’s just ernied
Bring in Bullets alum Mitch Kupchak Ted! He is on the hot seat for the other LA team, but he has rebuilt the Lakers team from the Shaq-Kobe era to the Kobe-Pau era.
*it’s just ernie's knack for drafting guys with great athleticism but not skills or IQ*
or getting a guy with IQ but has no skills……
Vesely is just one of many reasons to fire Ernie
I believe Vesely can carve out a niche in this league and have a pretty good career but he simply was never the core piece this team needed from the lottery this yr.
Every single move Ernie has made is defensible but non are all that great and it’s the moves he didn’t make that hurt us the most.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 5, 2012 7:00 AM EST up reply actions
With moves he didn't make I mean
getting at least 1 more core piece besides John and/or trade for one. He should have gotten 2 or 3 young studs and 3 or 4 good vets to surround them with. Both, he did not do.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 5, 2012 7:02 AM EST up reply actions
Dutch, you keep posting the same blather
There is little to be said in Ernie’s defense, but you keep yelling to get “core pieces.” Be specific. Which ones? How do you get them? We have NO assets with any trade value, except maybe Wall. Our draft position is what it is. Veseley seems dreadful, but he was ranked where we took him in most pre-draft projections. Everyone here wants better players; and I don’t doubt that even the front office does, too. But to just say that the team needs better players is not much of a revelation.
by jmuravchik on Feb 5, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
sorry but i hate the "pre draft projections" defense
You could argue Ernie’s instant love of Vesely is exactly why he was that high in the rankings, Grunfeld made no secret of his desire to draft Jan.
And even if that’s not the case, you dont pay a GM millions of dollars to just follow pre-draft rankings from internet sites.
As to other players, I havent seen much of him, but Kawhi Leonard had 15pts/6rebs/4assts on 3-3 3PT last night in win over Thunder and he’s started 13 games for the Spurs so you know he is a very good defender. He’s a guy no one would have called a reach at 6th and he plays SF.
Agree completely
Vesely is not the worst forward drafted in the first round (that prize may go to Marcus Morris) but, so far at least, he’s been surpassed by several who were drafted after him. Leonard is clearly one – and one I’d add who most of us here preferred over Vesely last June. There’s also Markieff Morris who some here thought lacked sufficient offensive skills but, again so far early in their careers, appears to be more polished than Vesely. Chandler Parsons has surprised everyone with what he’s accomplished and is clearly superior to Vesely. Bismack Biyombo has major deficiencies in his offensive game he’s making a greater contribution to his woeful team than Jan is to ours. Jon Leuer is doing well with Milwaukee. And then there’s Josh Harrellson with the Knicks and Nicola Vucevic who have both been pleasant surprises for their teams and have better overall stats than Vesely despite playing fewer minutes.
Disagree on both counts . . .
1. Vesely was projected as a potential lottery pick two years ago when the Wizards had the #1 overall. So Grunfeld’s interest isn’t the reason Vesely was ranked where he was.
2. Kawhi Leonard fell to 15th — which is pretty amazing. But still that undercuts the idea that “no one” would have called him a reach at 6th. Clearly the Spurs thought he was a great value at 15th.
I have a question though
How bad would Leonard look on this Wiz team? And how good might Vesely look on the Spurs right now? Just food for thought.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
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by returnofswagger on Feb 9, 2012 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
Well jmuravchik
before the 2010 draft I was advocating Paul George, Cousins, Cole Aldrich and Greg Monroe as high targets to get besides JW. For 2011 I had Kanter over Williams.
How we would have gotten any of them? Well, Blatche (who had some real value back then) McGee, Thorton, Young and Ross were all tradeble pieces before the 2010 draft, just like our future firsts (protected or not), we had ton’s of capspace to take on salaries.
Everybody knows it takes 1 or 2 great players (all stars) as core pieces to make a team if you can surround them with servicable pieces (non all stars). Since we can’t sign a top tier FA we have to draft them or trade them. Since we chose to rebuild through the draft I would argue that Ernie’s top priority would have been drafting those pieces. He took Wall, a no brainer at the time but failed to get that second core piece, nor did he surround them with good vets to teach the young pieces.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 5, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
Good players but
before the 2010 draft I was advocating Paul George, Cousins, Cole Aldrich and Greg Monroe as high targets to get besides JW. For 2011 I had Kanter over Williams.
I can’t see any trasaction in which we would be able to get any of them aisde from Aldrich maybe. George and Monroe are/were going nowhere and I wouldn’t want Cousins regardless.
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
by qthaballa on Feb 6, 2012 2:13 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think he was saying
That he wanted to make moves to acquire them at the time of the draft
I know
I can’t see any trasaction in which we would be able to get any of them aisde from Aldrich maybe. George and Monroe are/were going nowhere and I wouldn’t want Cousins regardless.
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
It's quite impossible to say
But the fact that he didn\t make any of those moves doesn’t mean they weren’t there.
Again, you can defend his every move as they were not that bad, but he hasn’t made any great ones (unless you think the Hinrich trade was a great one, I don’t).
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 7, 2012 5:04 AM EST up reply actions
The thing is this
You need a center piece (Wall was a no brainer in that draft)
You need corner stones (Booker, Seraphin and Crawford have proven not to be that and their draft position didn’t suggest they were either. They were just nice pick ups with an outside shot at becomming a cornerstone)
You need good vets to show them the way (we have non at the moment and the one we did have was traded away)
Ernie did some things and those were not bad moves perse, but he didn’t do what was needed.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 7, 2012 5:07 AM EST up reply actions
You're dreaming, Dutch
Thornton and Ross? You could’ve packaged them together for a 2nd round pick—if you were lucky. Nor could you have gotten a top pick for McGee or Young. They were mid-round picks, and that’s about what they are worth. Yes, blame Ernie. The team is awful. But it has no assets to speak of, so getting out of the whole we’re in is going to be a lot more difficult than you make it out.
Blatche had real value and McGee as an athletic shotblocker going into his 3rd yr did too. Both Thorton and Ross were expiring contracts and could be used in a BOYD package. That, plus the ability to absorb contracts is stuff a gm can work with.
Wether a Kings would have accepted a pre-draft proposal like Blatche (versetile 6’11 bigman, poised to breakout at the time to pair with their reigning ROY) + McGee for the #5 pick and a contract they didn’t want (Caspi for example), I don’t know, it;s impossible to say but even if Cousins would have been of the board, there were going to be good building blocks going to be available.
That kind of deals is what I was advocating at the time. With 17, 23, 56, future first (protected or not), the players discussed above and capspace, Ernie had something to work with.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 7, 2012 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not defending his moves at all
Dont make this out to be something it isn’t. Any trade scenario where the Wizards would get anyone you mentioned only exists in video games man. Point blank period. There is no way the Wizards field anything to get Hibbert, Paul George, Greg Monroe or DMC. And yes, I understand you are talking about last year.
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
I should have said 'one could defend his every move'
I don’t mean you in particular.
Ernie’s moves in the Polin era are defensible because of Polin, his moves in the Leonsis era are defensible because he created and maintained long term cap flexibility while getting younger.
But like I said, it’s the moves he didn’t make. I don’t agree that the possibilities I suggested are far fetched. Getting an unprotected first by taking on Baron Davis happened, Randy Foye and Mike Miller for a top 5 pick happened. Utah got the #12 and #3 in last yrs draft.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 8, 2012 3:44 AM EST up reply actions
I dont think he scouts well and tends to make up his mind early.
He traded the 5th pick in the draft 3 days before the draft! That’s just when everything really heats up, who knows what offers may have come had he waited- it’s not like anyone else in the league were after Miller or Foye.
He apparently had decided in 2010 that he would draft Vesely if he could. Huh? Before the combine, workouts, and an ncaa season, you already know you’ll draft a player you may have seen once? How does that work?
That’s surely how we ended up with Pech and why the fact that when Curry absolutely lit up workouts here it didnt move the needle at all.
by DCrez on Feb 8, 2012 9:26 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
should be the straw that broke the camel's back
by DCrez on Feb 5, 2012 10:14 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Ernie has made some truly bum decisions in the talent eval dept
Had Rondo in for workouts and drafted Pech. Had Curry in for multiple workouts and deemed him not ready to contribute, traded for Miller/Foyer on 1yr deals. Had Kawhi in for workouts and drafted Vesely who currently looks closer to disaster than he does solid lotto pick.
EGs gotta go
by DCrez on Feb 5, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We had Gil, so we didn’t need Rondo or Curry. Curry might have been able to play alongside Gil, but we were already good on O. We needed D and rebounding, and Curry wasn’t going to help us in those areas.
Pech was an attempt to get the Princeton center that we desperately needed. Same reasoning behind taking Dray the year before. Both picks had very low probability of working out, but they still might have given us our best odds at getting the final piece we needed to contend.
Kawhi looks good, but the Spurs are able to put players around him that allow him to play his game. Vesely would look much, much better if he were on that squad. Better than Kawhi? Who knows? I guarantee you that Kawhi would look like crap if he played here, though. We need shooters, and that’s not Kawhi’s game.
by yop32 on Feb 6, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
no more excuses for Ernest Grunfeld.
When did Ernie work Pech out? Did he ever see him in person? Rondo and Curry are awesome players we had in our gym on multiple occasions and the guy we pay to evaluate talent thought a complete and utter stiff (Pech) was preferable and that Curry wasnt ready to contribute. Curry hit more 3s than Miller and Foye COMBINED in his rookie year and would have surely contributed to that team, especially given that Gil was no longer Gil (shouldnt EG have known that too?). And he wouldnt have been on 1yr deal either.
Why is it that when Dray put up all sorts of numbers on a horrible team there was the notion that “somebody has to” and we downplayed him, but now that Ves cannot put up any numbers on a horrible team it’s his teamates fault? If Vesely is so talented, shouldnt he stand out on such a terrible team? If he was drafted to play SF, how come he hasnt logged a minute there yet? Or was EG intending him to play PF and that team would just wait the 3-4yrs it will take for him to get strong enough? Guess that coincides with Dray’s contract timeline or something?
The point is not to bash Vesely (though it may seem like it), the point is that Ernie is terrible at evaluating draft talent and he cannot be allowed to make anymore picks.
Interestingly most of his bad picks are the same kind of bad pick
Ernie drafts length and speed. Unfortunately, basketball is about much more than length and speed. But when Ernie fired Flip he said the team wasn’t running enough. Ernie clearly thinks that running is the key to winning. When has that been true? The Lakers were thirty years ago.
by ReturnofBillyJOe on Feb 6, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This.
If he had set up a wonderful talent-developing system, going for the “homerun” athlete picks makes more sense. But long-development players + no resources put into them = all failures.
And the 5th pick for Foye/Miller and the Pech pick were both so bad that they really can’t be forgiven or overlooked.
by Maroon and Black on Feb 6, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Not a shooter, but shooting is something that can be developed
In theory, at least.
Wall, Vesely, Singleton, Booker, Seraphin- if a couple of our guys develop a reasonable J, I think they’ll all look much, much better. They all have decent looking strokes and unimpeachable work ethics.
I think the lockout really hurt us this offseason. Without the lockout, I think our guys would have put more work in on their shots, maybe even with a real shooting coach. Instead, Wall was playing charity games, and Booker and Seraphin were learning new systems and how to play with new teammates overseas.
by yop32 on Feb 5, 2012 12:28 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Trading down for Walker or Knight might have improved future trade value for the Wiz
Shooting is something that can be developed, but usually a person is self-motivated to improve that skill by putting in the repetitions to improve eye-hand coordination and shooting form (“gym rat” comes to mind, a term often applied to Gilbert Arenas). Not much was mentioned on any of the local news fronts of the hours Vesely was putting in during the lockout to improve his shooting skills. Trading down for Walker or Knight (plus another one or two draft choices) MAY have duplicated some current roster skills, but it seems to me there would be more trade value to acquire some better fitting pieces for the Wizards puzzle that is still not in focus.
Vesely has offensive skills
but they are rough and he needs time to improve them. He shot 32% 3fg for Partizan. He has a shooting stroke. It will take time to work on improving it. To compare him to Gasol in size. Both were 21 when drafted,. They have about the same height and wingspan, but Vesely is just about as big as Gasol is right now, so he will bigger and stronger than Gasol.. I will venture that Vesely has all the tools to be a very good rebounder in time. I think part of the issue is that Vesely is making a transition from being a perimeter player to being an interior big. So, I am not about to fire Grunfeld for Vesely. I think he should be fired if the Wiz don’t win the draft and draft Davis to put next to Vesely. They would be perfect together. It certainly will beat watching Blatche and McGee trying to play bball with each other.
by hambonejackson on Feb 5, 2012 4:55 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
so then how come he is averaging 2pts/2rebs despite being 7' tall and supposedly a great athlete?
as a 21yr old rookie Pau averaged 17pts/9rebs! imho comparing Jan to Pau is pie-in-the-sky dreaming, at the same age Gasol’s game was years and years beyond what we’re seeing from Vesely
Ves's contributions do not end up on a stat sheet -- yet.
I see a guy who has high IQ on defense. He has active hands. He understands how to defend pick n’ rolls. He also is ~7 feet tall and athletic. You give him time to develop an offensive game. Everything else is already there, which seems harder to teach. So, you do not bitch he has not produced after twenty games. We knew he was a project. The payoff is huge — if he develops.
by zeke5123 on Feb 6, 2012 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
his defense isnt very good which is one reason his PT is decreasing
his OppPer is 23 which is downright terrible. And if he was really that athletic he’d be making more plays.
by DCrez on Feb 6, 2012 8:23 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You really think that Vesely will be as good as Gasol?
Comparing their rookie seasons, Gasol averaged 17 points and 9 rebounds a game. He also shot 70% from the free throw line. Vesely’s averaging 2.5 points, 2.5 rebounds and is shooting 22% from the free throw line. The only thing they have in common is that they’re tall guys from Europe. I think a better comparison can be made with Oleksiy Pecherov who averaged 3.6 points and 2 rebounds a game, and shot 65% from the FT line, in his rookie year despite playing less minutes per game than Vesely.
2 answer both
Gasol has always had the same role. Veselys role has changed from Partizan so its going to take Vesely a while to develop the skills to play a 4/5. i was really comparing size and pointing out that Vesely will be stronger than Gasol. Gasol gained about 30 pounds and if Vesely does, he will be about 270 pounds.How good will Vesely be? Who knows. He won’t be a bust.
by hambonejackson on Feb 5, 2012 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
After 20 games
NO one should be throwing around the word bust.
by zeke5123 on Feb 6, 2012 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
when you draft a player at SF and he shoots 22%FT and doesnt play any SF for you
even after 20 games it’s understandable to question Ernie’s thought process about the pick
Too early to say
I don’t see the comparison to Gasol but it’s definitely too early to draw any firm conclusions on Vesely’s future. I do agree that Vesely is a multi-year project who will need time to develop and that patience is called for. I hope that it doesn’t take so long that Wall decides to exit here before Vesely finally gains that needed weight and makes the development to a 4/5.
No, because everyone else would have probably picked him
That said, anyone with two brain cells to rub together could have put two and two together when they saw that he doesn’t rebound, shoot, or score very well, which I for one showed last summer in a fanshot. He has more upside than a lot of other people Ernie could have gone with, but that’s kind of his thing when it comes to picking players – go for the home run, reason be damned.
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EG went to the land of 7' skill players and drafted the only one without skills based on his perceived athleticism.
but now that he’s on an nba team, he’s arguably the 3rd or even 5th most athletic guy on his own team, let alone on an nba floor. Could be trouble.
Maybe there's hope for Jan
Remember how bad a shooter Paul George was last year. He looks somewhat decent this year.
They should have Jan watch as much Brent Barry, Shawn Marion, and Tom Chambers game film as possible. They all had unique skills that Jan should apply to his game.
definitely hope for a guy this young! no doubt.
but it’s easier to get a fatty with real basketball skills to get into shape (hello KLove) than it is to take an athlete with no skills and bring him up to nba handles and shooting. I mean it’s not like Jan is a 80%FT shooter who just needs to work on his J. Normally players that are terrible FT shooters are not considered to be good candidates to develop solid jumpshots…I guess this case is different for some reason Ernie understands
George was a good free throw shooter, though
So at least the stroke was there. Vesely’s a comically bad shooter from the line, so I don’t think it’s realistic to think that he’ll eventually develop even a passable jumper.
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by pantslessyoda1 on Feb 5, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Vesely may be a good player
But I’ll say it over and over again, he’s just a bad fit here. His game suggests he does all the things no one else on this team does and should fit like a gem, just hasn’t worked for reasons that I fail to understand.
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
he's not good a player by nba standards, has no skills.
He was the 3rd best player on his euroleague team, a league where James Gist was the MVP as I mentioned a million times before the draft. The kid cant dribble, shoot, or score and doesnt rebound either. The notion the 6th pick in the draft is so special he doesnt show up in the stat sheet is too much spin imo
by DCrez on Feb 6, 2012 8:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
Even if you’re a strict glue guy like a Battier or a Bowen, you need one above average skill, and just being able to cut off the ball isn’t enough. If Vesely could already hit a corner three or get you 9 rebounds per game when he gets starter minutes or lock down post scorers it would be a lot easier to forgive his other flaws. Right now, he’s basically Jared Jeffries with better hands.
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by pantslessyoda1 on Feb 6, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He's not going to hit jumpers
He can’t shoot. If he’s going to score, it will be inside. He has to use his height and quickness. If he can develop a hook shot or some other inside move . . . yeah he’s a bust. There’s no hope. No more kidding ourselves.
by ReturnofBillyJOe on Feb 6, 2012 6:50 AM EST up reply actions
All Rookies Get A Free Pass
For their first year. That’s why we call them rookies, but rarely throw around the word ‘sophomore’ for second-year players (outside of the rookie-sophomore game).
Singleton has a pass, Vesely has a pass, Mack has a pass. It seems like Vesely and Singleton are really going to need those passes, while Mack has surprised us a little bit. I don’t want to see anyone giving up on players that need at least a season to understand what the NBA game is.
We can pass judgment on Young, McGee and Blatche, but let any other player at least play out their rookie contract.
by dacornerstone on Feb 6, 2012 4:02 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Agreed.
As a corollary: The GM shouldn’t lose his job over those rookie picks.
If EG gets canned, it should be for the Arenas and Blatche extensions, the Pech pick, or simply the fact that the Wizards have been a terrible team for 3 straight years.
No GM will get blamed for a #18 pick (Pech) that doesn't work out
Because it’s #18. Always a crap shoot. The going expectations here about late draft picks is really out of hand.
by Kenny Sky Walker on Feb 9, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Can somebody explain to me
How the Morris twins turned out so differently? First everyone thought Marcus was the star. Then they were shocked when Markieff was drafted first. But now Markieff is succeeding and Marcus is in the NBDL. What did Phoenix see to take Markieff ahead of his twin?
by ReturnofBillyJOe on Feb 6, 2012 6:53 AM EST reply actions
he's a bit bigger and a more rugged defender/rebounder
Markieff is still undersized at PF and he has struggled lately, but he developed a midrange J last season at Kansas and it’s worked for him
by DCrez on Feb 6, 2012 8:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Playing with Nash and a bunch of shooters probably helps, too
I can’t really think of anyone who left Phoenix and played better and no one seems to go there and play worse than they were supposed to.
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by pantslessyoda1 on Feb 6, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
except for that miserable half season for Vince Carter.
But I agree, Nash is so smart.
To early to tell on Jan
No summer league, no training camp, 2 coaches, nobody with any resemblance of a game plan. Considering the above it’s a miracle these kids have won 4.
by DCPerspective on Feb 6, 2012 11:57 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Vesely is a PF
til he and the team commit to that he’s going to struggle. But that pick is a small blip on the head shakers of moves Ernie has made. Draft related move that should cost him his job is the 2009 trade for Miller and Foye instead of taking Rubio. on a team with all its best players being perimeter guys he trades for two more. never made sense. didn’t then, doesn’t now. and with Rubio showing he’s a STUD it just makes it worse.
The problem with Vesely at PF is
is that he losses his height advantage there and he isn’t strong enough to guard most PF’s. He also doesn’t rebound and has no post game.
The problem with Vesely at SF is that he can’t convert his height advantage in terms of shooting over people, because he can’t shoot. He doesn’t post up enough nor agressive enough on smaller matchup’s. In addition to not shooting over somebody, he doesn’t have the the handle to blow by someone either.
The problem with Vesely is, he has to little skill period and just a good motor and quick feet
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 7, 2012 5:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
so which could he play better in the NBA?
I’d say PF after he gets stronger and used to the banging that goes on. he’ll never be an offensive threat, but could become a decent 12-15 foot jump shooter with practice. won’t have a low post gave ever, but that just means he won’t ever be a star, but could be a decent role player. the rebounding could come with the strength and willingness to bang. but yeah all around seems like he’s the tweener that some people were scared of initially.
Agreed. Potentially a very usefull role player
But a #6 with Trevor Booker 1.01 as upside? Come on Ernie!
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 7, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
I was all for someone else getting picked at #6
could tell from the highlights and full games posted that he wasn’t really a fit at any position at this point. and not being able to shoot or dribble makes it a question of why bother?
To summarise
He has a lot of problems on the floor.
Ernie needs to go, for his entire body of work, not this one pick.
While I’m not a huge fan of the Vesely pick, I can’t knock EG too much for it. The lottery shafted us big time, and trading up seems to have had too high a price tag. In a normally stocked draft I think Ves would have gone much later, but considering many of the other players picked around Ves (Tristan Thompson, Kemba, Bismack) haven’t really been great either. Vesely does have some positives and I think he’ll be an ok glue guy in the future. The problem is we don’t need any more hustle and glue players. We need guys who can play and play right now without being total head cases.
The roster Ernie has assembled this year is deplorable. Theres 8 rookie or sophomores. 3 of which essentially play the same position (4 if you include Kevin) and all 3 (or 4) have limited offensive skill. Our “veteran leadership” consists of a max contract player who clearly has been dogging it since he got here, and two cast-off swingmen nobody wanted. Our “captain”, while skilled, seems to possess no fire or ambiton to realize his potential and has become a poster-child for this team’s struggle. Our other “core pieces” are a unapoligetic chucker and a wildy inconsistent, immature big man who has gobs of potential. After almost 10 years at the helm here, this is the best he can do? Get him out of here and bring in someone else to trim the fat and right the ship.
by Ron Carlos Jeines on Feb 6, 2012 2:54 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
ODD
He played pure 3 in europe…even shot the open jumper when had it. Here he looks like such a different player….he’s playing a pic and roll 4 and I dont think thats his game.
Watch him in europe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvrLlx1KDLE
and compare…
IMO he also looked bigger in europe but that could be relative.
by NotGivinUpOnDray on Feb 6, 2012 9:57 PM EST reply actions
I wouldn't fire Grundfeld based on Vesely alone
You can always argue that this past year’s draft was weak with no legitamate stars coming out due to the lockout. However, I would fire Grundfeld due to the fact his team building skills have diminished the past few seasons and has had some very unsuccessful drafts and even worse trades. To sum it up, he has held the position for about 10 years now and has only put together 3 teams with 40 or more wins. With a high win total of 45. He is good at keeping salaries low, which is probably a good selling point to owners, but for the fans who are funding the seed money (tickets, concessions, merchandising) it sucks! I’m definitely ready to go in another direction.
by TheRealBigMike on Feb 7, 2012 2:15 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
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