Attention Mr. Stern - The Big Markets will kill the NBA
by VBfan on Feb 10, 2012 10:57 AM EST
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PrintBrandon Jennings, the Milwaukee Bucks' leading scorer, told ESPN.com Thursday he will strongly consider leaving Milwaukee for one of the league's larger markets once his rookie contract ends.
The Big Markets will kill the NBA.
A 30 team league that repeatedly has the same 6 or 7 teams competing for the championship is not going to be able to attract owners & fans that will invest their money to see their teams constantly losing their top players to these big markets.
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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Not much you can do about it...
As a 27 year old, if I was big enough and skilled enough to play in the NBA, I would vastly prefer to live in a big market/big city, its just who I am.
The NBA is a stars league, and as long as free agency exists, this will be a problem. The answer to the problem? Run your team well (like San Antonio) and your stars will stay.
by Maroon and Black on Feb 10, 2012 11:19 AM EST reply actions
Run your franchise well huh?
If you can’t sign top tier FA’s
If the second tier FA’s are more than likely to not sign with you too
If the older good FA are going to chase a ring in a big city/contender
the only way to get good players is through the draft and via trades which require giving something up to get something.
If you draft well or trade for a piece, it might not be so easy to re-sign them because it’s harder for your team to do well (see above). If guys like Jennings or John Wall walk out on you than you’re f*cked and doomed to rebuild again.
Sure, the Spurs are a first class organization, but no matter how good of a franchise you are, Tim Duncan only comes around once every 15 years, let alone having 20 something teams passing up on Parker and finding Ginobli in the second round, at the right time i.e. in the Tim Duncan era.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 10, 2012 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
On top of that, teams like LA and Chicago can go deep into the luxury tax without becoming unprofitable
Small market or less desirable teams in otherwise ok markets can’t.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 10, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
I mean big market teams obviously have an advantage
But its not as bad as baseball. And because 1 player is SO important in the NBA, their ability to play where they choose for slightly less millions of dollars is really going to forever dominate the balance. Is it harder to compete as a non-Chicago/NY/LA market? Yes…but its not impossible.
by Maroon and Black on Feb 10, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
RIGHT NOW - it's not as bad as Baseball...
But it is quickly devolving into an 8 team League… JUST like Baseball…
In the not too distant future (and I mean DURING this current CBA) the only teams that will have a legitimate chance to get to the finals will be the two teams in Los Angeles, the two teams in New York, Chicago, Dallas, Boston and Miami.
The rest of the League will be not much more than a bunch of teams playing the role of the Washington Generals….
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Calling Baseball an "8 team league" is ridiculous.
Even without a salary cap, there is more parity in Baseball than in the NBA. They both have problems, but it is easier to build a contender in the MLB with an average team than it is in the NBA.
Skins rule
There is something to do about it.
Find somewhere to spend your money.
If your an owner that means getting rid of the team or letting the league take it over.
If your a fan in a smaller market vote with your feet.
Washington is the seventh largest metro area in the US based on the census, fourth largest major metro including Baltimore (based on Census' statistical areas).
The only cities that have a larger reach either by metro or statistical area are:
1. NYC (Knicks and Nets)
2. LA (Clips and Lakers)
3. Chicago (Dray’s hamburger meat)
4. Dallas (Mavs)
5. Philly (Sixers)
6. Houston (Rockets) (really booming more than us)
7. Toronto (Dinos)
Boston, the Bay, Miami, are all smaller than DC or Baltimore-DC by both measures.
I don’t think players have a problem with DC as a city. It’s franchise perception and we have to get over that hump first and foremost. In fact pretty much all these teams have a better perception than we do as a franchise, except the Clippers, but now that they’re winning too (thanks to some things falling into place), Sterling will look like a good owner now too…..
by thewiz06 on Feb 10, 2012 11:43 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
either way, Jennings is kinda trapped in Milwaukee for better or worse.
Even if he wants to force his way out, the Bucks have his number on his sophomore deal. Same with John. The only way they can get what they want perhaps, is to act like a whiny little boy every day and then it could be too much of a nuisance for their teams to ignore.
Miami and Orlando have a tax advantage and great wheather going for them
Boston has a historically great fanbase so they can squeeze more money out of a 1000 fans than we can out of 15000.
It’s not just about how much people live in the metro area.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 10, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
That also plays into it.
Even though Canada has universal health care and the US doesn’t, tax rates aren’t that different from the US..
The Heat and Magic have some advantages because there’s no state income tax, but at the end of the day those teams are also well managed which make the tax advantage a plus.
Well Managed?
Who managed to get Labron & Bosch to “take their talents to SoBe”?
Who managed to give Rashard/Gilbert the 2nd biggest salary in the NBA?
Doesn’t sound like much managing was involved.
It has more to do with Location, Location, Location.
You still need good managers to get a team in position to acquire a LeBron
you also need good managers to build up a Spurs or Sonics/Thunder team. If the Heat was still tied up in cap hell like the Knicks were for much of the 2000’s, no way LeBron could go there.
The Rashard move to Orlando was a good one at least for the first few years of that deal and he did help get the Magic (with no dominant scorer) to the Finals.
Talking about mis-management ;-)
Canada has universal health care and the US doesn’t
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 10, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
that's a big political hot button issue which we don't need here, but that's the truth.
It kinda hurts when i glance at Canadian income tax vs. USA’s and I see that their rates aren’t much different. There may not be as many loopholes for deductions though.
Only for home games (and road games in Florida)...
frankly the day a player gives a shit about state income tax when signing a free agent contract is the day pigs fly. There’s a reason players sign with the Knicks, the Lakers, and the Celtics, and state/local income taxes are not factored in at all.
by TerroristFistJab on Feb 19, 2012 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
Boston and San Fransisco both have larger TV markets
Washington is # 9 in US TV markets, with Boston, Atlanta and San Fran coming in ahead, as well as the teams listed above
Right....
And how many Baltimore residents are die hard Wizards fans? How many show up to games – buy gear – watch on TV?
I’d guess it’s not a lot.
Baltimore prides itself on being it’s OWN city… Not as a little cousin to DC.
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Yeah but if you start combining DC, You have to combine all other TV markets
San Antonio combined with Austin is much bigger than DC. Atlanta combined with Columbia and Charleston is bigger than DC and Bmore. Philly combined with South Jersey and central PA is bigger. You can’t just combine DC and Bmore (assuming everyone in Bmore is watching the wiz) and compare that to single cities around the country
San Antonio and Austin are 80 miles apart so you can make some case to combine the areas
the NYC area combines not just New York City, but also Newark NJ and the surrounding northeastern NJ counties which may associate themselves more with the NJ Devils than the NY Rangers, Bridgeport, CT (with the SW Connecticut counties), and the combined populations of Nassau/Suffolk Counties in New York, which are colloquially known as “Long Island”, though I would imagine that these counties associate themselves with NYC sports.
columbia sc is 200 miles from atlanta so in that case, Norfolk gets Wizards games too and it makes our area bigger.
I guess combining Baltimore and DC together is appropriate because both city economies are interrelated with each other, and both cities are relatively close, like Newark/NYC and Anaheim/LA among others.
Even within our area we have regionalism such as DC proper residents being “proud of being in the 202”, Montgomery County and PG County residents proud of their county, etc. I’m sure Baltimore, NYC, etc has regionalism-pride too.
True
I am the ONLY person I know in Baltimore that watches the Wiz :(
And I have a lot of friends :)
Follow me on Twitter - @CougheeMonster
by CougheeMonster on Feb 13, 2012 8:31 AM EST up reply actions
Its been a big market league forever
I would love to see some small markets have some sustained credibility, but the league has always revolved around the big markets. The great dynasties have all been big markets. Chicago, LA, Boston, New York, those are the franchises that are at the forefront of the league, and they always have been, and they always will be. The same teams winning championships has not deterred fan interest or owner investment before. 4 teams (Boston, LA, Chicago, and San Antonio) have won 39 of the last 53 league championships, almost 75%. That’s 4 teams dominating the league’s history. In fact, only has once in that span has more than 2 years passed without one of those 4 teams winning the crown. Fans have never stayed away from the game due to the same teams being good, because the same teams are always good, with a few subpar stretches every once in a while.
Good players leaving small markets to find glory in the bright lights is nothing new. It hasn’t destroyed the league for almost 60 years, and I don’t believe it will kill the league anytime soon. The big markets aren’t doing anything today they haven’t done for 50 years. The league was built on big market glory, it certainly won’t be big markets that kill the NBA.
I don’t care where Brandon Jennings plays, I’m going to watch basketball games. And if John Wall leaves for a bigger audience, I will be disappointed, but I’ll still be a Wizards fan.
by mrmadrew on Feb 10, 2012 4:16 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
The difference is
that in the “olden” days, you could draft a Super Star like Wes Unseld; and he would play his entire career in your team. You could build the team around him, and eventually acquire enough talent and become good enough to compete for the Championship…. It took 10 years for the Wizards to obtain enough talent to win the Championship with Wes.
Does ANYONE seriously believe that there is a Super Star willing to wait 10 years anymore?
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Exception to every rule . . .
San Antonio is the exception — they’re bottom 20 in terms of the size of their media market.
So smaller market teams can compete if they get lucky in the draft and use free agency to fill in around the edges. Larger market teams have more leverage in free agency. But even that isn’t entirely accurate, as the core of teams like the Lakers and Boston have been a by-product of trades, not free agency. Of course, the size of the media market influences trades — even true in the case of the Kobe draft day trade.
It won't be the size of market if Wall choose to leave
It’d be the team performance, his teammates and the fans
He’s definitely a good player who has high potential, and if he underachieve here, he will go somewhere else just to prove himself, yeah “not about basketball anymore just about proving them (us) wrong”
I would say yes
but we have a stigma as being as bad as the clippers have been historically. Toronto is the other big market team with a stigma but it’s moreso because it’s in Canada rather than because the franchise has truly been bad.
Technically, yes.
We’re 8th. But there’s not much difference between #4 (Dallas) and #11 (Miami). You’re looking at about an 800K difference on either side.
http://www.arbitron.com/home/mm001050.asp
The real differences are between everyone else and the big three.
e.g. Chicago (#3 — a little under 8 million); LA (#2 — over 10 million); and then there is the behemouth that is the NYC (#1 — 15.5 million).
Milwaukee is about one-third the size of the DC market (e.g. about 1.4 million).
It may be too late to stem the tide...
Every major Free Agent in the last several years has chosen to either leave, has been traded to, or has demanded a trade to one of the “BIG 8”….
It started with Boston trading for Kevin Garnett, and adding Ray Allen.
Pau Gasol to the Lakers
LeBron and Bosh to the Heat.
Amar’e Stoudemire to the Knicks
Carmelo Anthony demanding a trade to the Knicks.
The whole Deron Williams fiasco in Utah
The League orchestrating the trade to get Chris Paul to the Clippers
And even now – Dwight Howard wants to move to New Jersey (really New York), Dallas, LA or Chicago..
Deron Williams making noises like he wants to go somewhere else (Dallas) if the Nets can’t land Howard.
The only Super Stars that haven’t traded teams are ALREADY on big market/big city teams… (Dwyane Wade, Kobe, Andrew Bynum, etc…)
And the ONLY exception to this rule has been Kevin Durant…. who decided to re-sign with OKC rather than leave for the lights, fame and fortune of the big Cities….
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
So now name me a Super Star player still in their prime
(Super Star = multiple time All-Star, named at least once to All-NBA first or second team)
Name one that is NOT in one of the “Big 8” cities (or is not demanding a trade to one)….
Kevin Durant…. Lemarcus Aldridge….. and who else?…. Steve Nash living out his golden years in Phoenix?
Almost every Super Star in the League is already ON one of the “BIG 8” (Nowitzki, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose, Pau Gasol, Ray Allen, Amare Stoudemire, Carmello Anthony, LeBron James, Kevin Garnett, Chris Bosh, etc…. etc…. etc…..)
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
How to fix it?
The players are not gonna settle for reduced salaries. By the time that would take effect their careers would be over. Their focus is get it while the getting is good (can’t blame them).
The smaller market owners will start the process when they continue to see shrinking gates and increasing costs.
I think consolidation is coming and the smart owners are preparing while the others have their heads in the sand.
The time to start fixing it was this latest CBA. Stern & Hunter both should have been looking in the crystal ball and seeing the future of the NBA.
Contraction
It isn’t a popular alternative but it’s no use imho to have 8 to 10 good teams and 22 just to fill out a league. Why have 24 or 20 teams? More talent on each team, in any given year any team good be good and if they are bad, quickly turn things around and be good again the next year.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 11, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Unfortunately Washington might be contraction candidate.
Losing money in a good market while making a giant mess of your franchise isn’t looking good.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 11, 2012 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
If the NBA contracts, the Wizards will be on the chopping block. However,
it’s unlikely that the Wizards would be cut because DC is affluent enough to support a team monetarily, and enough season ticket holders will be on board with this team even if few folks show up.
Based on market size, Oklahoma City should be on the block too, but it has a good team, right now. Let’s see what happens after the Thunder sucks again, which will happen eventually like it does to every team.
Unlikely . . .
because of the franchise’s history in the region, the size of the media market (8th), also it’s probably a good idea from a business perspective for the NBA to maintain a presence in the nation’s federal city — as it offers easy access to federal officials and staff.
Politically difficult.
MLB ran into this same buzz-saw when they considered the possibility of contraction in the 1990s. All pro sports leagues rely on the good favor of politicians. So even if they could increase the per franchise profit margins through contraction, that is a tough way to go about it. As this past year demonstrated, it’s a lot easier to go to the talent/labor and force concessions on them. The players aren’t going to penalize the league by removing lucrative tax-breaks, public subsidies, or threaten less vigorous protection of things like the league’s intellectual property interests.
Plus the buy-out costs are likely to be substantial. Those owners whose franchises are going to be contracted, can demand a premium above any market-valuation.
Also, if that was actually on the horizon it would be a subject of CBA negotiations. It is equally doubtful that the league would be looking to sell its interest in the Hornets, as that franchise would represent a prime contraction opportunity — as it is already owned by the league.
Contraction though, would be one way to fix the disparity.
If the league could waive a wand too and cultivate more talent, that might help as well. With the international reach of the game, that might not be such an outrageous idea in 10 years. Even domestically, and even after a lock-out, the sport continues to grow in popularity.
Right, that's a very good point.
every other possibility would be exhausted first before coming to contraction. By then, the league is probably losing ton’s and ton’s of money annually and ratings are at an alltime low.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 13, 2012 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
Keep in mind
That the new CBA has basically not kicked in yet for player movement. Granted it doesn’t go nearly far enough, but the difference between 4 and 5 years combined with lesser raises should be a pretty huge deterrent to leaving. Many of the guys trying to move now are guys who have already played out a significant portion of their 2nd (1st “big money”) contract and are now less hungry for the $. Even then, when was the last time someone walked away from more than $10m-ish? The Miami 3 took slightly less, but not that significant. Sign-and-trade restrictions also help this a lot.
by Maroon and Black on Feb 12, 2012 1:18 AM EST reply actions
I still think the problem is that Super Star players are not paid enough....
The rank-and-file has skewed the salary scale to reward the NBA’s middle class players… The Mid-Level guys…
If the salaries were skewed more towards the Super Stars (and let’s face it, those are the guys that put people in the seats, and draw television viewers) – then each team would only be able to afford ONE.
For instance, say you designate ONE player on each team as the “Franchise player”.. That player’s team can offer him a 6 year contract with 10% raises, starting at 45% of the current Salary Cap number… The maximum amount of ANY other player on the team can be only 25% of the Cap number… And maximum contract lengths for Non-Franchise players is 4 years with 5% raises…
Therefore, a team could keep their own Free Agent Super Star by offering him a 6-Year deal at 45% (based on the current $58Million Cap, that would be $26.1 Million first year salary… and a 6-year $196 Million contract).
The best another team could do is offer a “Franchise” contract at 4 years, $120 Million… And if they already had their “Franchise” player, the best they could do is offer a 4-year, $62 Million contract….
Obviously there would have to be additional restrictions. A player with a “Franchise” contract could NOT be traded to a team that already has a “Franchise” player on the roster.
Would LeBron James, or Dwyane Wade, or Carmello Anthony take $134 Million less to play together?
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Oh no question that if the salary ceiling was not in place
The following players would make $50-75m a year:
LeBron
Kobe
Wade
Durant
Howard
Nash (would still be on his deal)
Maybe Carmelo
Maybe Dirk
Then the 2nd tier of All-star caliber, or slightly under would make a good chunk of $, then EVERYONE else would make like $1-2m a year tops.
I agree with the concept of a Franchise tag, or a split salary cap where 40-45% of the cap can be used on 1 or 2 players, and the rest can be used on everyone else on the roster. It prevents “superfriend” teams, spreads stars out (critical to the long-term success of the league as no stars = no interest in many cities) and doesn’t penalize teams who don’t have a “franchise” level player quite as much as a straigh franchise tag does. Either way i was shocked that something like a tag didnt go in this CBA
by Maroon and Black on Feb 12, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
That's a great idea Rook, but it would cause a lock out and that boat has just sailed.
The owners (inlcuding the smaller markets) agreed to the current deal because parity and long term attractiveness of the league was not worth losing boatloads of money if they NBA would have shut down a year or two.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 12, 2012 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
The NBA is going in that direction
and a flex cap is likely going in that direction. Over time with this CBA, the difference between the lowest and highest payroll teams will likely decrease.
Having a max level player is still the hands-down best way to be competetive
As paying LeBron $18m for $45m of production adds more value than even a superstar on a rookie contract. Seems crazy to me they didnt fix that
by Maroon and Black on Feb 12, 2012 10:32 AM EST reply actions
that's sooooo not Ernie ;-)
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
This was a MAJOR point of contension during the lockout and I think the logic is flawed
Yes historically big market teams have dominated the NBA. Boston, Chicago, and LA have won the lions share of titles. But the idea that big time players want to ditch their original teams for the big city and bright lights is bubkus. One of the best franchises over the past 10 years has been the Spurs, built well around Tim Duncan. San Antonio isn’t close to the top 10 in terms of market size. The best young team in the league is OKC, which again, is smartly managed and well built around Durant. OKC is essentially a hick town in terms of NBA standards. The Knicks, in the biggest city in the country, have basically sucked for the past 10 years.
Players, just like anyone else with a job, will stay on their originial teams if those teams/companies are successful and well managed. If executives make stupid choices that ruin the team’s success, that player will grow frustrated and leave. It’s up to the brain trust to build a solid team around Wall, and if they don’t I wouldn’t be surprised to see him walk. I would hate it, but I wouldn’t be surprised.
You also got to consider individual player’s mind sets. Durant and Duncan are very different people than LeBron/Brandon Jennings/etc in terms of ego, attention-needy-ness, etc. Let’s hope our guy is of the more humble variety.
by Ron Carlos Jeines on Feb 14, 2012 12:41 PM EST reply actions
OK - so let's emulate the Spurs
1. Build a good solid 50-55 win team around a Super Star HoF Center (but not good enough to win a title)
2. Get lucky to have said Super Star Center on your team injured one year… and go 20-62
3. Get even luckier to get the #1 pick – and draft, arguably, the best PF that has ever played the game
4. Never make a mistake in salary negotiations
5. Never make a mistake on draft night.
6. Get lucky and draft an All-Star quality Point Guard in the late first round of the draft
7. Get lucky and draft an All-Star quality Shooting Guard in the late 2nd round of the draft
8. Convince players to take less than market value to keep the franchise under the Luxury tax
Gee whiz – it’s so simple…. Why isn’t EVERYONE doing this?
OH yeah – I forgot to mention… Even if you do all that, and keep your salaries in check…. and have immense success – your team will still lose money.
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I totally agree with this, especially with the last senctence. We have to give the Spurs some crecdit too, though
4. Never make a mistake in salary negotiations
5. Never make a mistake on draft night.
6. Get lucky and draft an All-Star quality Point Guard in the late first round of the draft
7. Get lucky and draft an All-Star quality Shooting Guard in the late 2nd round of the draft
8. Convince players to take less than market value to keep the franchise under the Luxury tax
Those things would not have happend with the Wizards, even if we got as lucky as the Spurs in points through 4. The Spurs are masters in developing and guiding players, great at scouting and most importantly, players wánt to be loyal to them. That says alot about those players but it says even more about that small market franchise and the profesional climate (culture if you will) they have going on there.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 16, 2012 8:49 AM EST up reply actions
As for the Wiz
We have 7 sophomores and 3 relatively young players in AB, NY and JvM.
Only 1 of them is a legitimate lottery talent (Wall). Vesely is picked in the mid-lottery, the selection was questioned heavily by many (inlcuding you and me) and that was while the draft class was watered down significantly with a handfull of top 10 picks returning to to school.
Aperantly, Ernie hopes that 1 or 2 of those players not named Wall, will be the All Stars like Ginobli and Parker have been to complement Duncan. Considering Ted proclaimed Wall, Crawford and Blatche our ‘New Big 3’, last season, I think Ernie had his money on those guys while hoping his other draft picks could either turn out to be servicable ór be packaged and traded for 1 or 2 complementary pieces.
However, like a front office exec. said 2 weeks ago (in an article about how little talent Washington has and how it’s not developing because the franchise has a bad culture) We have a guy drafted lower than his matchup, every night, every position except our starting PG. To add to that we have some of the dumbest players ever in terms of basketball IQ.
The worst thing to me, though, is that Ted and Ernie have done next to nothing to develop and guide these players. For a guy like Seraphin to move to a completely different part of the world, become a multi millionaire and to start living on his own for the first time isn’t easy. Let alone adjust to freaking NBA! At age 21 he found himself eating at McDonalds more than he should and that’s on him but damn Ernie for not hiring the player personell to guide these kids. John had a bunch of junkfood in his closet as well and as for the basketball part. 5’9 Zon Dierden is our bigman coach….. There is no shooting coach, no defensive coordinator, no bigman coach and the medical staff continues to misdiagnose stuff for years without any accountabillity. There has been no other effort than “looking into it” to get our own D-League affiliate to nurture young prospects and insert the roles, playbook and phylosophy of the bigleague team.
I am afraid that all the luck in the world isn’t enough to get this franchise in a position like the Spurs.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Feb 16, 2012 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
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