Pick ONE: John Wall or Kyrie Irving?
by tw10 on Jan 6, 2012 5:26 AM EST
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I know it's early. That's why I wanted to do this poll now, because by the end of the year it may be clear who the better player will be.
For the sake of this discussion let's assume neither player will have injury problems.
Given the way our team has been playing, I dont expect Wall to run away with this vote...We haven't seen a whole lot of Kyrie, so I'm interested to see what the BF community has to say.
Please try to keep the debate civil. I feel like anyone that picks Kyrie is going to be flamed for "jumping ship". I'm sure that the members here that pick Kyrie are still dedicated Wizard fans.
Aaaaaaand to start off the debate, here's my pick and argument:
Kyrie Irving--I know, big surprise after what I said above. If John can develop a jumper, then I'm going to be wrong, and very happy at the same time. The comparisons made between Kyrie and CP3 were right...although Kyrie seems to be a bit more inclined to score. I wasn't sold on him coming out of Duke, but I've seen him play 3 times and I'm convinced he's the real deal. The vision, the speed, the moves, the jumper--it's all there. He has a nice mid-range game and can hit the 3 ball.
The more I watch Kyrie and CP3 the more I realized how much John's lack of a jumper kills him. J-Money cant be stopped on the fastbreak, but in half court sets defenders can sag off him...if his jumper improves opposing teams would have to play up on him more, and we would see John in the lane a lot more. There is no reason to believe his shot cant improve--If J-Kidd could do it after all those years Wall can too. I know he has the work ethic.
The thing is, when and if John finds his jumper, and he manages to become not just capable but a good shooter--he will fly by Kyrie in terms of productiveness.
I want John to prove me wrong. I really do. But my gut tells me Kyrie will be better in the long haul.
I wanted to say that at the end of the year it would be fair to directly compare their production. I wanted to say that Kyrie doesn't have a lot of help, like Wall--but at second glance he has a decent team around him with veteran leadership. Antawn is horrible on D but is a great pick-and-pop partner. I hate Verajao but he can finish around the hoop and rebound. Boobie Gibson, Parker, and Casspi are all solid shooters. Not an all-world team, but he has some help.
Wall has...I think we all know what Wall has around him. No need for me to go into detail.
PS--Who else wishes we had held onto Alonzo Gee? He would be starting at the 3, give us similar production to Rashard, and cost about 19 million less.
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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I always thought signing Rashard for 20-odd million was a questionable decision
But you have to pay FA to come to WAS :p
P.S. I can’t put your question into a vacuum. Give me John Wall.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jan 6, 2012 8:46 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Can't say for the long haul
But so fat this season, the difference is apparent.
Comparing the 36 minute/game statistics this season for Irving and Wall (since Wall plays significantly more minutes than Irving), Irving is clearly the better player so far.
Irving – 42% shooter, 19.7 points, 7.4 assists, 3.0 turnovers
Wall – 33%, 13.2 points, 6.2 assists, 3.5 turnovers
Now, admittedly, this is only after six games and the numbers may change dramatically as the season progresses. I don’t think we should place too much emphasis on Cleveland’s better surrounding cast of players. Before Irving arrived, it was pretty much the same bunch that compiled a worse record than even the Wizards. It seems reasonable to attribute some of Cleveland’s improved play this season to Irving (although, again, six games is clearly not enough to determine if the improvement is real). Considering though that Irving is a rookie and that he barely played last year at Duke, I’d have to think he’s more likely to achieve elite PG status than Wall, although, hopefully, both will.
Given all that
I still say John Wall will be statistically the better player every season, for most of both their careers. This season included.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
Follow @Dylan___V
by returnofswagger on Jan 6, 2012 11:32 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Kyrie's looked great - worth noting though he's played a very easy schedule so far
Give him the Wizards’ schedule, and he’s not nearly as good.
John Wall after 6 games:
19.3 ppg, 10.2 apg…
He had a 28 point game, a 29 point game, and a triple double already.
Not gonna give up on Wall yet after all he showed last season.
wall
but i did consider irving b/c i’m getting tired of having guys with elite athletic potential who never learn how to play. i’m still thinking wall puts it together, tho maybe this is out of necessity as much as anything else
by DarrellWalkerFan on Jan 6, 2012 11:56 AM EST reply actions
arent most stars born out of neccessity
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Wall and it's not even close
Much better potential. Everything that Kyrie has on Wall right now is something that Wall will improve on. Kyrie’s quickness, athleticism, etc. (things Wall are better at) are not things that Kyrie can really improve on much.
Why do this ?
I mean J Nice which by the way I got from truth about it website so their is no confusion saying I took somebody name, but really people forget so easily that Wall won rookie of the month like three or four months straight, he also put up D.Rose numbers, also was mvp at rookie challenge who also by the way broke CP3 assist record, was in top 5 if I am correct for leaders in assist. Plain and simple Wall needs better talent around him, and a good off-season at the Bullets facility where he stays down the street from just so he can be close to the gym. He has character, leadership intangibles, and heart JDuece no doubt.
by p.robb87 on Jan 6, 2012 4:46 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I'll take Kyrie
I think his upside is a prime CP3. He has the poise that guys like Wall and Westbrook lack, a jumper, and a tighter handle. He’s the most skilled Pg I’ve seen drafted since CP3.
Wall seems like he has a low BBIQ. He has poor instincts for a PG and his IQ will hold him back.
Formerly know as iNFamous SWaGG
by DMVLeGenD on Jan 7, 2012 1:16 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Exactly
People acting like he can’t be an NBA starter with exceptional stats forget he already has.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
Follow @Dylan___V
by returnofswagger on Jan 7, 2012 9:40 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I can rock with you thru the first paragraph....but I dont think wall has poor instincts or a low IQ.
Like @adamvolo said, he averaged 8 assists/per last year…and dont forget he was/is doing this all as a 20 year old.
I'm not picking Kyrie because Wall has started off slow this season
I thought Kyrie was a better prospect in college. He has Chris Paul-potential. Not a homeless man’s or even a poor man’s. Imo, his ceiling is Chris Paul.
I think people will be shocked at just good he is. What makes Paul special wasnt his incredible speed or explosiveness, it’s his feel for the game, ability to think plays ahead and the skill to execute. Kyrie has that. His game may not be as showy as Wall’s, since Wall’s game is about as subtle as a brick to the face, but Kyrie has all the ability to be one of the best all-around, efficient PGs in the game. He has the type of game that translates to wins and not just gaudy stats. Skillwise, there is nothing he cant do as a PG (except maybe the ability to post).
Formerly know as iNFamous SWaGG
john 100%
I’m shocked this is being brought up in the 7th game of the season after john just had 21 pts and 9 assist. Kyrie will be good but I HIGHLY doubt he’ll have any where near as good as a career as john. The cavs have been winning but you also have to remember that they haven’t played anyone good yet. Look at Johns first 7 games last year and tell me who had a better start. John was the first rookie since Oscar Robinson to have 8+ assist in their first 7 games. John is gonna be a MVP, and hopefully its with us
by no more kwame's in dc on Jan 7, 2012 3:25 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Kyrie
or Rubio. Wall is just out of control. Rondo without the IQ. By the time Wall develops a jumper he’ll be out of DC anyway unless we get something great with the #1 pick next year.
i cant wait till sunday
To see rubio in a full game. It seems like he gets 10 pts 7 assist a game uwt everyone on here would trade wall for him in a heartbeat. Any PG that comes here will struggle no question about. We don’t have enough shooters and our starting SF and PF suck. What more can you ask of a 21 year old with not one other shooter on the team. Rubicon is good but I wont say he’s better than wall when wall had a way stronger rookie start than him
by no more kwame's in dc on Jan 7, 2012 3:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Kyrie Irving first 7 games: 14.1 pts, 5.3 ast, 3.9 rbs, 2.9 to, .416 fg%
John Wall first 7 games: 18.4 pts, 10.3 ast, 4.3 rbs, 4.4 to, .431 fg%
by Llamaman on Jan 7, 2012 11:48 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
To compare fairly
Yes, no question, John got off to a very strong start last season. But I think the more useful comparison is to compare their first seven games this season. Before the season began, I think most here would have expected John’s stats to be significantly better than Kyrie’s because of John’s greater NBA experience. And yet that hasn’t happened, at least not yet.
To do a proper comparison, we should compare their 36 min/game stats because John’s averaging about 12 minutes more playing time per game than Kyrie (38.6 min to 26.4 min). Comparing them using their 36 min/game stats shows the following:
Kyrie Irving: FG% 42%, 19.3 pts, 7.2 ast, 5.3 rbs, 3.9 to
John Wall: FG% 36%, 14.0 pts, 6.4 ast, 4.0 rbs, 3.6 to
Except for turnovers, Irving is superior to Wall in every statistic. Again, we’re only looking at 7 games and I have no doubt these will change substantially as the season progresses. But, given these statistics, it certainly cannot be said that Wall is the clearly superior PG.
Mike is right that the Cavs have played an easier schedule but the Wizards hasn’t been an overwhelmingly tough schedule. The Nets, Bucks and Knicks don’t look to be worldbeaters and this year’s Celtics don’t seem like the Celtics of the past few seasons. Let’s revisit this a week from now after the Cavs play Portland, Utah, Phoenix, and the Lakers, all on the road, while the Wizards play Minn. and Toronto at home and the Bulls and the 76ers on the road. I think a comparison after those games will provide us with a more definitive answer, although, again, it will still be relatively early in the season.
I think comparing rookie seasons is more fair personally, but in either case seven games is a tiny sample. I don’t think using NBA stats will be that useful until we’re at least 30-40 games in.
Based on scouting reports, I would say Wall’s ceiling is way higher than Irvings, but I’ll concede his floor is a little lower.
When all is said and done I think Wall will be on top. His worth ethic leaves me little doubt that barring injury, he’ll improve greatly in the area’s he’s currently lacking. A jumper and decision making are much easier skills to learn than speed, size and athleticism.
JimmyWa11
I just don’t see the CP3 comparisons… I don’t know where people got the comparisons before the draft from and I don’t where they’re getting them now. Irving barely played at Duke. He hasn’t shown enough to even prove he’s a pass first PG. I think he’ll be good, maybe a couple all-star games but Wall is much, much better now (and even last year). Athletically, he’s 10 times better, Wall’s explosiveness is much greater, BBall IQ they seem pretty similar, and obviously Irving trumps Wall when it comes to shooting but that can be taught. But I see Wall being so much better, that Knicks game yesterday showed it and tomorrow’s matinee will give me even more to be optimistic about. GIVE ME WALL.
Follow me on Twitter: @adamvolo
lol @ shooting being taught
Yea I guess maybe he can increase the three 3-5% over the next 5 years but he’ll still have a bad shot. People don’t improve their shooting percentages that much year to year. Don’t you think they would’ve taught Shaq to shoot free throws if it were that easy?
by Ball with Wall on Jan 8, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Jason Kidd
hit 27.2% of his 3’s in his rookie year (79 games, 33.8 mpg). He is currently 3rd all time in 3 pointers made
Wow, I dunno man....
Kyrie’s very skilled as a rookie. And he’ll probably get better. But based on Wall last season and that Knick game and hoping the rest of this season is an aberration, I’ll ride with Wall. He was taking it to the rack with real authority in the Knick game. The Wiz have
to play like that consistently. The Wizards should sign Gilbert Arenas….someone should!
He’s being shunned like a D-leaguer! Wizards could use him!!!
John Wall's strength is to drive and kick
But we are not playing uptempo, we are not using the high pick and roll to enable him to play to his strengths and we are not spacing the floor for him either.
Yes, an improved jump shot could help open up the lane for him but how can the guy drive and kick when he has no one to kick to? We’re shooting 28% from 3 as a team, simply horrendous. Three guys he needs to knock down shots — Crawford, Lewis, and Mason — are shooting 18, 22 and 25 percent respectively. They’re combined 10 for 48. Blatche isn’t making a high clip of his 16 footers either and NY is hot/cold.
So, naturally, he’s not trusting his teammates, and understandably so. It would be better if he continued to create and hope his teammates start hitting some but I can understand he wan’ts to force things and get something going. His self confidence is shrinking, you can see that in his demeanor.
This team is a horrible situation for him and it is stunting his development. Sad but true.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
I posted this before but this is a scouting repor
Weaknesses: He is still a very raw player, heavily depending on his athleticism to help him get away with a number of things … As a playmaker he is much more effective in transition, once the tempo slows he struggles making reads and deliver passes … His release is a little slow, but his shooting form is decent, unfortunately at this point he is a non threat from the outside … The shooting inconsistency limits him since people back off, making his driving lanes that much more congested, forcing him to drive into heavy traffic … In pick&roll situations, he is also very shaky because defenders always go under the screen daring him to shoot, which limits the movement and action as well as his passing options … His touch around the rim is unrefined, unless he is dunking he struggles to convert on layups as well as floaters and teardrops … As a defender, he has the length, athleticism and lateral quickness to become a stopper, but at this point he is not very dedicated on that end … He takes plays off and lets inferior players get by him off the dribble … He is very turnover prone, sometimes attempting to throw passes that have no way of finding the target …
So yeah, he is still developing these weaknesses but man, do we do a bad job helping him with that by putting the team around him like I stated above and by playing a very slow halfcourt offense that is geared towards mid to long range jumpshots and iso’s. We have a lot of fastbreak points but those only occur when Wall gets a rebound himself or gets a steal. It’s almost despite of the system we play.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
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