DeMarcus Cousins, JaVale McGee And Environment
by Mike Prada on Aug 22, 2011 12:50 PM EDT
in Player Analysis
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PrintAs we should have expected, the fact that JaVale McGee and DeMarcus Cousins matched up against each other in this weekend's Goodman League vs. Drew League exhibition has reignited the conversation over reuiniting John Wall with his college teammate. Wall himself added fuel to this fire when he said this after the game on Saturday:
But when asked who the better of the big man battle between his current teammate or his former teammate at Kentucky, Cousins, Wall replied, "Former. He was a beast."
That's kick-started the McGee/Cousins debate on here, with one side arguing that Wizards fans overvalue their players and the other saying that Cousins is a ticking time bomb. Thing is, I think this discussion, while fun, doesn't have a ton of practical ramifications. We're wondering which player might end up being better, but to stretch that logically, this has morphed into a conversation over which would be better for the Wizards. This is where I think a distinction needs to be made.
We're not dealing with robots here. We're dealing with human beings whose talents are cultivated by other human beings. It's no guarantee that Cousins comes here and develops in the same way he would develop in Sacramento. Maybe his feuding with his coach becomes a bigger problem because Flip Saunders is less confrontational than Paul Westphal. Maybe he and McGee don't complement each other. Maybe he throws Andray Blatche into even more of a funk. Maybe his friendship with Wall becomes a detriment if the rest of the Wizards' locker room becomes resentful that Wall consistently defends his friend publicly while not doing the same with his other teammates. These are just a handful of potential factors that could derail Cousins here.
Of course, there are also a few reasons why Cousins might be better here too. Still, we're dealing with a ton of hypotheticals. Given Ted Leonsis' "no jerks" policy, there's reason to believe that Cousins' development wouldn't go any better here than it would in Sacramento. Cousins is probably a good kid off the court, but it's going to take a while for his on-court outbursts to be tamed, if they are tamed at all. To throw that project onto a team with plenty of other projects to solve is problematic to me. (If you're wondering whether Sacramento's situation is that different from the Wizards', my answer is no, which makes me concerned that Cousins won't reach his full potential).
Sure, McGee has his own issues too. But McGee is also already on the team. The Wizards already know what they are dealing with and have already begun the process of trying to fix McGee's bad habits. With Cousins, the Wizards would be starting over with a (potentially) even bigger undertaking. The payoff may be greater, but if there's not a great chance that payoff will be realized in this environment, it's worthless.
That's why I say I'll stick with McGee and wish Cousins the best of luck on the opposite coast. If the Kings don't want Cousins after his rookie contract is up, it might be a different story. Until then, keep environment in mind and understand that the objections to reuiniting Cousins and Wall have to do with Cousins' ability to reach his potential in D.C., not with Cousins' potential itself.
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well said
Still not in the cousins camp until that time truly presents itself
by thewiz06 on Aug 22, 2011 1:15 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Plus
People’s biggest gripe with JVM is his lack of defense and I haven’t seen Cousins play a stitch of D himself. Not to mention we’ve already got one headcase big man throwing up outside jumpers. Pass, thanks.
I just want someone better than McGee as the starting center
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 22, 2011 2:09 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
he's 23 years old
there is an excellent chance you will have a better starting Center than 2010 Javale Mcgee next season, it will be 2011 Javale Mcgee
It seems like they bring different things
Assuming they both get somewhere near their potential:
- McGee can be a defensive beast in the Camby / Chandler / whoever mode, which is very valuable to a team with other offensive stars who needs a low usage rate player that brings it with picks, blocks, boxouts, and open court finishes without eating up possessions. If Wall develops, McGee would be a nice fit since you’d presumably want to run most possession through him.
- Cousins has astonishingly smooth post moves, but will never be an athlete of McGee’s caliber. He’d fit better on a team that needs him to be an offensive centerpiece.
I’m not saying either player is at that point yet, but I don’t think you can say you’d want one over the other without more knowledge of the Wizard’s future personnel.
Why was Cousins a beast?
Other than the two offensive plays that he dominated McGee, what exactly did Cousins do in this game for beast status? His team had Durant and Wall and they only won by one. He got somewhere between 6 and 8 fouls. If he had dominated the center position, they would have won by 20.
Other than that, I think Wall’s comment lends itself to renaming the Wizards the Washington Misfits. Young, Blatche and McGee come from the Arenas era, with a different sort of an agenda. Wall is a competitor, first and foremost. It remains to be seen if the chemistry will ever work with these guys. EG doesn’t recognize this issue, but maybe Leonsis will lay into him to move Blatche and then Young if that doesn’t help.
Finally, for Cousin’s sake, the last place he should come to is DC with NY and Miami right behind.
by Izman on Aug 22, 2011 2:46 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I personally think that atleast two of them will be gone in the next 2 seasons if years if not all of them
and the worst part about the Arenas era was that they missed out on so many talented lottery picks like LaMarcus Aldridge, Joakim Noah, Eric Gordon, Al Horford, Brook Lopez, Rudy Gay etc and ended up with a random euro who ain’t even in the league anymore, Nick and Javale…
This organization missed out on all those great players wasting years on a core that won 1 playoff series against the baby bulls and didn’t win a second round game.. 5 years down the drain..
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 22, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
What?
the worst part about the Arenas era was that they missed out on so many talented lottery picks like LaMarcus Aldridge, Joakim Noah, Eric Gordon, Al Horford, Brook Lopez, Rudy Gay etc and ended up with a random euro who ain’t even in the league anymore, Nick and Javale…
I’m not following you. Are you essentially saying the worst part about the Arenas era is that they didn’t suck?
well they didn't suck but them consistently making the playoffs in the end meant nothing cause they never even won a second round game
It was similar to the Joe Johnson Hawks situation right now.. sure the team is having some success but the team isn’t exactly going anywhere.. even if Arenas never suffered that knee injury the team still would’ve never made the conference finals in the weak east.. so what’s the point of being a somewhat good team getting mediocre mid first round players going nowhere? If the team sucked a few years ago and drafted some of the players I named and still got Wall in the 2010 draft they’d be in a much better position to win in the future imo.
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 22, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
OK cool
Let me ask you a question: do you enjoy watching the current Wizards play?
If the answer is no, then it’s hard to bemoan having a competitive team.
Well to put it in a simple way
I’d rather see a terrible team that will have the opportunity to draft players who have the potential to take a franchise to contention and multiple titles then a middling team with above average veteran players whose peak isn’t higher than just being a 47 win team that is viewed as a pretender instead of a potential title winner.
The whole reason there’s a regular season is so there’s a playoff and they have the playoffs so that the best team can battle for a championship but what’s the point of a team making the playoffs when everyone knows the team won’t win a championship.
Charles Barkley actually had a very truthful quote on this subject when he referred to the Bobcats old core of Gerald Wallace, Stephen Jackson and Okafor and he basically told Jordon that even though the team WILL be competitive their ceiling as a team is just a second round exit. So the best way to build a core that CAN be contenders for a decade is to let the fans know that the team will probably suck but they’ll have the opportunity to contend for a while if a core of young stars.
Plenty of people talk about Oklahoma’s rebuild but some forget the fact that it was started by trading their old core of Ray Allen and Shard Lewis who obviously couldn’t lead a team to a title as the premier players.. just like how Arenas, Butler and Jamison couldn’t lead a team to a title. Then they sucked and got a top 10 player and local kid Durant and then traded for Jeff Green who was eventually traded for not fitting with the franchise centerpiece player…
The next season Durant averaged 20 a game and Green averaged 16 but the team only won 20 games and were in the lottery again and got the 4th pick. They chose Westbrook who has now become a top 15 player in the league and well respected but in KD’s and Westbrook’s first season the team only one 29 games.
So that was 3 straight years of being in the lottery.. now it’s 09 they draft their 2guard for the next decade Harden who had a disappointing rookie season but the team went on to make the playoffs and challenge the Lakers in a tough close series but lost and the next year Harden progresses and they go to the conference finals but traded Green for Perkins a player who fits with the KD and Westbrook duo better.
See how the Sonics (now Thunder) built their team by basically sucking for 3 years then making smart decisions in the draft to build a core that can contend for the next decade.. I’d rather have a team like that instead of a team like the 05-08 wiz and the current ATL Hawka
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 22, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
sorry I didn't notice all the errors in what I wrote
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 22, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
to put it short
I’d rather see a squad suck for 3 years and get players who can compete in the conference finals and have a bright future to possibly when multiple titles instead of a team be mediocre for 3 years and get nothing but first or second round exits and some moral victories
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 22, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds easy to say
A lot harder to live. That’s all I’m trying to get at.
If you really think the worst thing about the Arenas/Jamison/Butler years was that they didn’t completely suck, then it’s hypocritical in a way to turn around and bemoan the issues the current Wizards have.
Not disagreeing that that team should have been blown up sooner but the critique that it would have been better for them to go 20-62 every year instead is kind of hilarious to me.
Exactly
And who knows where we would’ve wound up without those injuries in 07. We were one of the best teams in the east at that time, if we could’ve kept that momentum, who knows where we would’ve wound up… Bad luck just struck at a horrible time.
But the Hawks DID rebuild through the draft.
They drafted Williams, Smith, Horford, Teague, etc. 3 of their starters were drafted…
So your saying that after all that drafting, they should just blow things up?
This is where you have to realize that not every player drafted is going to be great. The Thunder were fortunate enough to make great draft picks, so they came out of the better end. They wound up drafting a top 10 player in the league in Durant. The Hawks messed up when they didn’t pick Paul (but that’s a part of building through the draft, you can make mistakes).
The Hawks did suck for years, and they did draft good players, just not good enough players.
Not every team is going to be as fortunate as the Thunder in the draft. You can suck for years and never draft your superstar player.
well yeah the Hawks did mess up by not going with Deron Williams or Chris Paul
but those 3 hawks starters named were never projected to be superstars and they’ve always been viewed as players who COULD support a superstar caliber player.. the difference between them and the wiz now is that this team has already drafted someone who can be the best at his position (John) while Josh Smith, Horford and Teague were never viewed as those types of players. The main problem now is that management has to find players who will be able to help the team compete while complementing the franchise player like how Seattle/OKC did with Durant.
But OKC was able to get that player to run with Durant in a MUCH stronger drafted.. now this team has drafted that kid Vesely but I don’t know enough to actually speak on if I think he’ll be someone who could be a part of the main core or just a role player who complements the core like how OKC has Maynor and Ibaka as the main role players around their stars Durant and Westbrook. Supposedly this upcoming draft is suppose to be strong but I don’t know enough to speak on it.. so if Jan turns into a great role player the team could get the bigman or do swingman to be a part of the main core with John or possibly Singleton or Jan will be good enough all around players to be part of the main core.
The TrailBlazers also had a rebulid similar to this but it kinda fell apart cause 2 of their big 3 of Roy, Aldridge and Oden have had serious injuries but if not for the injuries we’d probably be talking bout the Portland rebuild also cause they drafted some very good complementing players like Wesley Matthews and Batum and traded for Gerald Wallace.
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 22, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Point is
Sucking is not guaranteed to lead to building a contender. You could suck for years and not get anywhere, it happens all the time. Let’s just hope this period of sucking we are going through right now does lead to something.
u also have a team like the spurs
who despite being really good, and aging, have drafted extremely well late in teh draft and have thus been able to aquire some great talent that has helped keep them around for the entire decade. Manu ginobli is the most notable, but he certainly isnt the only late round/2nd round pick they were able to turn into a valuable nba player.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Dynasties don't come easy. Enjoy the ride.
Our franchise last won a title in ’78. There have been plenty of years of sucking.
The sorry truth is that not a lot of teams can compete for multiple championships. Looking at NBA history, it’s basically the Celtics, Lakers, and Bulls (maybe the Spurs too). Besides those mega-market teams, you get a lot of fluctuation, with the average team really not doing all that well.
Amongst all those nice draft picks we “missed,” there were also a ton of duds. If we’d been a perennial lottery squad, we’d have a few of each.
I’d like to see the Wizards win a championship in my lifetime. But at least I got to see them be an annual playoff team for awhile. It was just nice to have a team that didn’t suck for awhile.
And the Wizards championship in 1978
came in a year when we were more “in the middle of the pack”, and so was the Thunder.
Then again, we had 22 teams in the 1977-1978 season so there would have been more parity by virtue of the fact that there were fewer teams. The best team in the NBA that year was Portland with 58 wins, and the worst team was New Jersey with 24 wins, and in the West, every team won at least 31 games that year.
Yes, the 77-78 Championship Bullets had a mediocre regular season...
But if you look at the whole decade of the 70s, I suspect that you will find the Bullets had one of the best overall won-lost records in the NBA. They were, in fact, a very good team over a fairly sustained period of time. They had made it to the Championships and fallen short previously in the decade, and sort of like 2010-11 Dallas with the addition of Tyson Chandler, the 1977-78 Bullets needed the mid-season acquisition of Bobby Dandridge to connect the existsing dots.
That is true indeed
the Bullets were the best team in the East for the 1970’s based on regular season record if I’m not mistaken. The Sonics on the other hand gradually improved over the course of the decade from expansion team to championship team in 1979.
The good thing about what we did in the Arenas era
was that we did let the core run its course.
In the 2006-2007 season it is debatable as to how far we could have gone, assuming Caron didn’t get his wrist broken and Arenas didn’t get his knee tweaked. I think we would have made at least the 2nd round and the Conference Finals were a realistic possibility.
I also think that we are thinking a bit above our heads about building a championship team, when our team can’t even perform in the regular season right now. If you can’t win games in the regular season, you’re not going to the playoffs. Also, when our team makes the playoffs, we shouldn’t try to change gears completely only because it’s the playoffs. We have to play the way that we always did in the regular season to continue winning games in the playoffs, and hopefully God will be on our side at least one year. If we’re gonna be a run and gun team which is what we seem to be looking forward to with John Wall, then we can’t just start playing half court the whole game when the playoffs start if we ever get there. Yes, Wall needs to improve in the half court too, and our whole team for that matter, but we just can’t try to do what the Celtics and Heat do to win the Eastern Conference.
I don't think the team will be run and gun
but I they can be dangerous on the fast break just cause the primary ball handler has great court vision and is hard to stop from end to end. Kinda like how Wade and Lebron are really special on the fast break cause of their passing ability and top end speed
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 22, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
ok
the weird part about both wade and lebron is that they average great stats but their teams don’t average high numbers oddly enough….
well the heat only have 3 players who consistently score in double figures
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 22, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The worst part about arenas was he put them in NBA limbo… Never bad enough to get those listed above, never good/consistent enough to truly contend.
VOID!!!
My feeling of that team
would have been to move Butler to the wing guard where he played in LA and then move Jamison to the 3 since he was shooting so many 3s and then get a real 4. Jamison was a 31/2. And some how convince Arenas he is a 1 guard. Some people might complain about the defense, but they were anyway.
by hambonejackson on Aug 22, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't go screwing with players' positions
Lots of mismatches, obviously, which cuts both ways, but thanks to the Princeton, we were better at exploiting them than our opponents.
Those teams had two problems.
First, we could never find a good Princeton center. Vlade Divac was a journeyman who became an All-Star in the Princeton. Similarly, maybe there was some no-name player out there who could have been really, really good for us, but Grunfeld couldn’t find him.
Second, we kept getting screwed by other teams’ idiot GMs. Our players’ production was largely due to the system. Other teams’ idiot GMs failed to recognize that our guys were actually only at their best in the Princeton and stole our players or forced us to overpay. They ended up screwing themselves and us, both at the same time. They ended up with cap-killing contracts on their books. We should have been able to retain key contributors like Larry Hughes and Jared Jeffries for a lot less than they ended up getting paid. (Gilbert, too, but we still would have been screwed by his injury.) It’s hard to build a contender. Add complications from other teams’ idiot GMs and it becomes all but impossible.
In a better world, maybe we could have rolled out a lineup that featured Gilbert, Larry Hughes, Caron, Antawn, and unnamed Princeton center “X”. Mix in some key contributions from guys like Antonio Daniels, Roger Mason, Jared Jeffries, Brendan Haywood, etc., and we could have been pretty damn good.
by yop32 on Aug 22, 2011 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So why was Cousins a beast?
From http://hoopspeak.com/2011/08/goodman-vs-drew-wrap-up-notes-from-northeast-dc/:
Both big men are breathtaking in person, their graceful movements appear especially surreal with such giant men. McGee caught a couple alley-oops at least a couple feet above the rim, and snatched a John Wall floater clean out of the air. Cousins, however, impressed even more. If a typical box score was available, I’ve no doubt the Kings center would have easily tallied the highest plus-minus rating. He was a bully, blasting smaller players (including McGee) out of the way and using his long arms and soft hands to gather nearly every carom (nevermind that he finished the game with seven or eight fouls). Cousins does many things well– reliable shooting form, nifty passing, exquisite footwork near the rim–but the thing that really jutted out at me was his dexterity. He has incredibly skilled hands for such a young, humongous player.
"reliable shooting form"
he spent his whole rookie year bricking shots from outside 10ft when he should have been punishing teams underneath. He also shot 30% between 3-9 feet. Maybe he reworked his J this offseason, but his shot last year was anything but reliable.
That's happy talk
Where’s the beef? How many points? How many boards? How many blocks? How could he have the highest plus-minus when Durant dominated Harden?
I think its pretty simple
Cousins is the more taleted player he has an already advanced offensive repotoire huge body and requisite nastiness.
Mcgee the waay better athlete, defensive player finisher near the basic even keeled basketball player.
But to me Mcgee will be part of a winning siuation waay before Cousins will because the things Mcgee does well teams that win big have. The Mavs won this past season with a Mcgee type center playing for them. Chandler is like an older stronger Mcgee for the most part. Not as athletic maybe not nearly the shot blocker but game is in a siomilar mode with maturity. I see Mcgee being that sorta winning cog center once he drops illusion of superstardom with the bs plays. which I’m pretty certain he will.
Cousins wants to be a 1st option for a team has the talent to be but not metality. Unless he has some sorta renaissance similar to Zach Randolph its just gonna be a big waste of talent the NBA is such a marathon it tests your mental and physical focus. and he lacks it has anger issues and aparently isn;t the most coachable guy or good teammate.
so build the team around Wall at pg and mcgee at center and I think it works. You won’t have personality conflicts with those 2 as your hubs.
If we let Mcgee go for some reason he’s gonna be a key cog for a winner in the near future.
Cousins might be in time down the road if he accepts coaching and changes his mindset towards refs and teammates.
by jazzy1 on Aug 22, 2011 3:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Cousins in his rookie year was a better scorer, rebounder, and passer than McGee after 3 seasons in the league. McGee is a good defender in a true zone scheme, but the guy I watch is bad man to man and gets pushed around by 3/4 of the league in the post.
The Wizards are bad in the half court, they just drafted another athletic big man to finish on the break. The team has absolutely no post presence on offense and marginally any on defense. They get pushed around in the post by everyone. How is it again that Cousins’ skill set doesn’t better complement what the Wiz do and do not have? PG + Post scorer is a tried and true formula.
I don’t have personal experience with the attitude side of Cousins aside from what I’ve seen on TV and Youtube. Prior to the draft I was surprised to find out he is an intelligent, quick witted, very open guy. He didn’t come across as stupid, angry, conceited, or flippant at all. It was obvious he has some temper issues to get a handle on at the NBA level, but lots of guys have a bad attitude until they are winners then it becomes “competitive fire”.
I do agree with some of the points Jazzy made here about needing that JVM skill set on a winner. Those guys are definitely hard to come by and in many comparisons I would feel the exact same way. Cousins however has so much more top end ability that I don’t think you can let that hold you back. I’d take Cousins over McGee in a heartbeat, ESPECIALLY on a young team with nothing to lose. The Wiz don’t have all the other pieces that a contender needs to make a guy like Javale worth that spot.
Caveat: I don’t know it all or pretend to and I’m interested in what people think of this point of view.
by Mixmy1200s on Aug 22, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wait
Cousins was not a better scorer. Getting more points isn’t being a better scorer when you shoot horrible percentages, which is what Cousins did.
Cousins may have been a better passer, but he turned the ball over as bad as John Wall… So yes, he will find guys better than Javale, but half of those guys he finds are on the wrong team. For the amount of turnovers he gets, his assists are irrelevant.
So let’s not put Cousins over what he really is right now. He didn’t score any better than Blatche, but you’re ready to call him a post scorer and say that we don’t have one at all…
by gray16 on Aug 22, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Thats not true though
He was a rookie last year. His assists shouldn’t just get discounted because of the TO’s. Turnovers tend to go down with experience. Shooting percentage is another thing that should probably improve with experience.
The shooting percentage is another thing that you see as fixable and should get better with a consistent role and PT.
The point is, that he clearly has more offensive moves, passing ability, and skill(more than the skill to leap) than Javale right now. He has more ability to be a perenial dominant scorer, rebounder, although not quite the defender.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 22, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
However...
Last year, Cousins fell in love with his jumper. 61% of his shots were Jumpers (82games.com) and his eFG on those shots was only 33%.
For a “post scorer”, he did very little of his scoring in the post last year.
He hasn’t shown me that he can consistently score in the post in the NBA…. but what he HAS shown me is that he can take a lot of BAD shots, and keep on shooting. So far, Cousins had proven only that he can be Andray Blatche 2.0
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
more than half of Cousins FGAs came outside the post
Demarcus was also taking over 4 shots a game outside of 10 feet whereas Mcgee barely took 1 per game there. Cousins CAN be one of if not the most dominant post player in the league…but he sure did not play like it last year
To make a better reply:
Cousins shooting over 4 per game outside 10 feet means that around 65% of his shots were from inside the post. He took over 12 per game.
Javale’s “post” scoring was limited to put backs and finishes for the most part. All that really means is one guy is predominantly a post scorer and the other isn’t a scorer at all.
by Mixmy1200s on Aug 22, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
for Cousins to take so many shots away from the basket is only possible
because he spends so much time far away from the basket despite being a giant. He should be playing like Shaq but instead he is trying to develop a midrange J. Why is that acceptable for him but not our Bigs?
Part of it is....
…that, in my opinion anyway, Cousins skillset works better on the perimeter than it does in the low block. Believe me when I say that I’m in the minority of one when I believe that, but, after watching Cuz, as a Kings fan, I believe that to be true nonetheless.
One thing I do think that people don’t understand is that Cuz’s skillset is unique for a guy his size, but, after watching him have incredible difficult getting shots off in the block in ways that a player for his size should not, it’s a lot disconcerting.
I think the bigger problem Cousins had last season was not trusting his J enough and spending too much time getting stuffed. If your point that shot selection is an issue, I agree. If you’re going to point to turnovers being a problem, that’s a given.
On the other hand, I think Cuz would be a lot better off if he used his outside shot to set up his inside game more. But one thing DeMarcus Cousins will not be like: Shaquille O’Neal. If Cuz is like anyone, it’s Pau Gasol. Pau Gasol will never be mistaken for Shaq either.
Anyway that’s my .02$.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
thanks for the 411
pretty shocking to hear someone say Cuz is more Pau than Shaq! But as you are a Kings fan, you’d know better than the majority of us
It's not that I necessarily know more than anyone else...
..it’s just that right now Cuz tends to be one of those players where many have an opinion and there is little consensus on what he can become. Any consensus that does exist tends to be that he plays too much time on the perimeter than on the block.
Check out his splits from 16-23 ft and 3-9 feet. If we can agree that most players who play on the block actually do so in the 3-9 foot range (in large part because closer than 3 feet is entirely in the lane where you can’t camp out all the time), than we will save a lot of aggravation early on. According to Hoopdata’s calculations, Cuz’s eFG% is almost 7% points better from 16-23 feet than it is from 3-9 feet.
Looking at McGee’s numbers in the same vein, McGee’s at rim numbers are 69 eFG% to Cuz’s 62%, 43% from 3-9 range and 30% for Cuz, and so on. McGee didn’t have quality numbers from either 10-15 ft or 16-23, but he didn’t take that many shot attempts from there on the season either. 80% of JaVale McGee’s looks come where his offensive strengths seem to be.
Am I a big fan of JaVale McGee? No I can’t say I am. But, on the other hand, Wizard fans have seen a lot more of McGee than I have. I don’t believe much in projecting a guy for stardom. (Which I see in a lot of fanbases. This same type of thing I think happens with Nick Young and Andray Blatche to a lesser extent.) What I think when you’re comparing DeMarcus Cousins to JaVale McGee is you’re comparing apples to oranges and expecting the effect to be similar. As we all know, that’s not the case. In fact, it’s not even possible.
I do, however, see the reasoning how Cousins might not fare well on the Wizards given his strengths & weaknesses and where the Wizards really need help. Unless Andray Blatche becomes the guy that Grunfeld thinks he will be, I don’t think the Wizards as an unit will get where they prefer to go.
My other .02$. (FWIW, I’ve enjoyed reading the debate so far.)
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I remeber ppokeyguru used to hang out around here more
Anyway, I gotta ask… You would take Cuz over Javale at this point?
And I agree, they are kind of apples and oranges at this point.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 22, 2011 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
For the Kings yes.
For the Wiz? No. But it’s definitely an eye of the beholder type deal too.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
A finisher
who works off of putbacks and passes who can only get 10 a game is better than a guy who can only get 14 a game shooting as much as Cousins did.
To put it into perspective:
Cousins had to shoot 5 more times per game to make 1 more shot per game than Javale. Cousins has a while before we can call him even a decent scorer.
So it’s more like one guy is a bad scorer and the other isn’t a scorer but doesn’t try to be one.
by gray16 on Aug 22, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would agree
if McGee would agree. He wants more touches. He has post moves. Its what he says. My feeling about him is that he will get moved and he may welcome it. There are bigger and better things out there for him. Mainly no Saunders.
by hambonejackson on Aug 22, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, I think JW has now confirmed he doesn't respect McGee
Would have been nice to defend his teammate tho.
Agreed
I’m a tiny bit troubled that Wall didn’t deflect the question and give the usual “they do different things, but they’re both great, blah, blah” answer. I see no upside to his implicitly criticizing his current teammate.
Wall could be saying things as they are to him
as someone else commented earlier.
That’s not saying that McGee isn’t a good teammate in and of itself.
And I was actually impressed with McGee’s driving ability for his height though I’d rather not see him do that unless he had to..
that was my first thought
shame no one asked Javale how he thought Jennings played.
I will take Cousins
Pair him with Wall and Singleton and take my chances.I think it would be good for Wall and Cousins if those 2 could be paired together. It sort of empowers both of them. They both play on losers and if they are together they might motivate each other.
I personally think Wall does not like playing with McGee. i don’t blame him. Pass me the McGee and then McGee brings the ball up himself, Thats selfishness at its worse. And then to watch Wall pass the ball to any one but McGee. Saying the team needs a big man. Saying that your team mate is not as good as Cousins. There are so many indications of Walls displeasure with McGee as a team mate. So I would take Cousins just for that reason.
So another way of answering, Is Cousins better for the team than McGee? If you consider Wall the team I would say absolutely yes.
I read how Cousins is this and that, but has anyone asked the players on Sacramento what they think of Cousins? To me, the issue is not the fans perception of Cousins, but the players response to him on the court.
by hambonejackson on Aug 22, 2011 4:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
True if you mean Saunders
Wall can be something of a buffer between Saunders and Cousins if there is a problem.. I don’t think Cousins is Sprewell. Cousins had his sideline blowups, but it never affected his game on the court. I think a coach can live with that.
by hambonejackson on Aug 22, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Lets give Westphal McGee
and lets see how much fun he has with him.
by hambonejackson on Aug 22, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with Hambonejackson on his second paragraph
I honestly think he feels embarrassed at times playing alongside the guy who tried to the Jordan FT line dunk at the end of a blowout loss… add into the fact that he actually he said he’d be satisfied with getting Kanter.. who’s also a center
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 22, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There's something to this though
I have been embarassed watching Mcgee. I’m sure Wall has been embarassed being on the same court with him.
Of course, success would win out. So this will all be moot if we start winning [with Javale] one day.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 22, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
maybe Wall should worry about himself for now
and be embarrassed by other players AFTER he is doing everything he can to be great….like guarding opposing PGs
so you're saying this type of play doesn't warrant embarrassment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OajjbCK-N0&feature=player_detailpage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pRvx8Hw-9Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhp3ixQX8ME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27-jM2NvBIc&feature=related
I mean this is just pathetic for a professional basketball player
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 22, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
seriously, how many layups did Wall miss last season?
Does he need to be embarassed of Mcgee while he is missing layups? I understand the notion of wall thinking javale is a crappy player and wishing someone else was on the team….i just dont see the embarrassment aspect.
Besides, all the stuff you link are things Wall is supposed to tell him not to do given Wall is The Franchise. He needs to make the players we have better not just wish they werent around.
How can Wall make a basketball player better when that player doesn't really know how to play basketball even though he's been in the league 3 years with 2 years of college
Wall missing a layup is nothing compared to what I posted.. seriously how can you make excuses for something as unacceptable as refusing to give the ball back to the guard and everything else I posted
Wall has a total of 2 yrs of nba and college experience while McGee has 5 but yet McGee gets a pass for having the lowest IQ of any center in the league while Wall is scrutinized for missin a layup.. I just can’t.. there are no words
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 22, 2011 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I'm saying Wall is very far from perfect and should worry about himself
and let Ernie care about who is on the team. Whomever Ernie decides to sign, that’s whom Wall has to play with and it is his job to make them better. Maybe even much better. THAT is what truly great, franchise guys do. Not take every opportunity they can to talk up their roommate from college or some other UK player Coach Cal wants them to push up the draft. Personally I dont like that Wall didnt say “they’re both awesome” or some such nonsense when asked about Mcgee vs Cousins, that’s what a teammate is supposed to do
by DCrez on Aug 22, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
honestly how many times did Mcgee actually bring the ball up himself?
Over the course of the entire season, how many times did that really happen? I recall Dray doing the exact same thing towards the beginning of his career and as was said above….it dissipates once the player realizes he is not league MVP material despite what he feels of himself
Cousins
I’m not sure how long Mcgee will remain uber-athletic. What’s the window before he simply doesn’t have the hops to compensate for all the other holes in his game?
Cousins will be big and mean for a long time.
The question here is “which freakshow with head issues” would you rather have? If I can’t say “someone else,” I think I’ll take whichever freakshow looks less brittle.
Cousins' occasional loss of control scares me.
I doubt there’s anyone in the Washington organization who can tame him, even Wall. He’ll grow out of it probably … someday … maybe.
But then again, I have to admit that I’m beginning to feel frustrated that McGee won’t grow out of his stubborn, childish fixation on highlight-reel play any time soon either.
All told, I think Cousins will be far the superior player, but I’d probably (at the moment anyway) take McGee.
Still leaning towards Cousins.
Seems like the choice is boiling down to: “stupid or immature?”
Gotta figure you can grow out of one but maybe not the other.
How about when he got into a fight in the locker room because Tyreke Evans
took an ill-advised 3pt to try and win the game rather than passing to Cousins underneath? Would he not have gone apeshit if Wall had taken that shot…because they played 1 season together at UK?
Locker room fights are a sore subject
Granted this is a pretty desparate attempt to find something interesting to talk about…
If we are choosing “who would you rather have…” I think I’d rather have a C or PF capable of actually winning a locker room fight.
I think my desire to talk about nutjobs is gonna get satisfied by this from AP:
WEST LINN, Ore. — A man who went to the Oregon home of Memphis Grizzlies forward Zach Randolph to sell marijuana said he was beaten with a pool cue in a dispute over the price of pot.
i'm not saying Mcgee is better than Cousins
i’m saying Cousins has enough major issues about him that I agree wholeheartedly with Mike on the subject.
damn ZBo!
by DCrez on Aug 22, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Z-Bo?
What pot dealer argues with a 6-11 260+# basketball player over price and then runs to the cops and tells them he was trying to sell pot? I don’t believe any one can be that dumb.
by hambonejackson on Aug 22, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
seriously, sounds bogus
cant imagine Snacks is still selling weed after just getting busted last year or whenever it was
This argument is void
I prefer locker room teammate fights over bar teammate fights.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 22, 2011 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Potential Chandler vs. potential Z-Bo
I’m still sticking with JVM. I want no part of Cousins.
by imperialme on Aug 22, 2011 5:53 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
thats a pretty good comparison
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Yep, that's where I come down...
As far as the pro-Cousins thing goes, we have to keep reminding ourselves that John Wall is still a kid. His Kentucky experience was so much more positive than his first year with the WIzards that you have to beleive that it is hard not for him to feel more kinship with his previous teammates.
If John Wall were a 28 year-old media savvy three time All-Star guard, then I would give more serious weight to his comments … but then again those words could be used to describe Gilbert Arenas in 2009.
As far as the Z-Bo thing goes… the whole thing has set-up written all over it.
"If John Wall were a 28 year-old media savvy three time All-Star guard, then I would give more serious weight to his comments "
wait….wouldnt his answers have less weight then, since they would be less sincere, and more media savvy?
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
The difference between Chandler and McGee
is that Chandler understands he brings nothing to offense and accepts the role of rebounder, post defender, defensive anchor and shot blocker.
McGee on the other hand wants to be an offensive player but doesn’t have the coordination, IQ, or overall basketball skill to do so.
I hate when people who don’t actually watch this team play try and portray Javale as a young Chandler type who will be selfless on offense and be a beast on defense when he sucks on both sides of the ball most of the time. All these so called “experts” say he’s a great defensive minded center when you gotta have basketball IQ to be defensive minded. I mean when I spoke on McGee with people who are unbiased (not fans of this team) who actually watched them play most would say Wall just plays with trash.. complete trash and think of McGee as nothing as a low IQ shot blocker.. which he sadly is and most would say Nick is just a low IQ scorer.. which he is. The main reasons why this team lost like 59 games cause they were the 2nd and 3rd best players on this team… but they’d be great back ups though
Even though Chandler had bad IQ coming into the league I don’t think he’s done some of the things Mcgee has done as a starter.. never seen him hang on the rim when he gets the final 2 points for a double double either.
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 22, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I really don't see this tbh...
To me, it looked like the main times Javale would take dumb shots is when he would get impatient while holding the ball in the post. If a teammate didn’t get open, he looked like he would panic and just throw up a shot to avoid a three seconds call. But as far as demanding the ball and taking a lot of shots, I don’t really see it. Heck, he averaged under 10 shots taken per 36 minutes last season, that shows no signs of a person trying to put up a lot of shots.
question
dwight howard dominates on offense at an all star level, and his only form of offense is dunking. Why do you not believe that Javale can have a GOOD offensive game (hell…decent offensive game is really anyone is looking for) especially considering his unique athleticism and physique?
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
"and his only form of offense is dunking"
you can’t be serious with that quote, have you actually seen Dwight play the last 4 years?
and I think McGee could become a 14 or 15 point a night scorer but that’s it
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 22, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I watch almost every game and to say Javale is terrible on offense is just wrong
both by the eyeball test and every stat you can find.
by DCrez on Aug 22, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
As the season went along
He made me believe a little bit more that he can contribute on offense, IF he keeps getting better.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 22, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
He could also contribute a bit more on offense than Chandler
If he works on it.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 22, 2011 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't say he was a young Chandler
I said he is a potential Chandler. These are different things.
Perfect
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 22, 2011 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Cousins is throwback player, McGee has more potential today.
The no hand checking rule makes an elite shot blocker as important as an elite low post scorer. And if the NBA changes the goaltending rule to the international style, where players can touch the ball when it’s still on the rim, then McGee can be devastating.
Both individuals
are very unstable mentally at the moment….
One joker like to post ‘plankin’ shots’ (and has fun doing that)
The other joker has the ‘misunderstood’ label to live by (by having a tat posted up on the internet)…..
Troubling to me is:
Wall didn’t really support McGee at the dunk contest
Wall didn’t really support McGee (and Blatche) by calling out his teammates
Wall didn’t rally support McGee by saying this team needs a good big the most
And now Wall didn’t really support McGee by saying that Cousins owned him by saying: “Former. He was a beast.”
This is a trend and its and it hurts team chemistry
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Aug 23, 2011 6:53 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't totally blame Wall
Maybe Javale should get the message.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 23, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
atleast John is a truthful man
to be honest, when I look back at John and DeMarcus during their Kentucky days, he never had to put up with all the garbage that he goes through with Javale and Dray, it’s obvious that Wall WANTS to win but the problem is that the guys he’s passing to just aren’t winners.
You can say what you want about DeMarcus but at least that man has an understanding of the game of basketball.. Javale on the other hand.. I’ve probably seen high school kids with better basketball IQ then him to be honest
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 23, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Cousins was HORRIBLY inneficient as a rookie
Not saying he can’t become a good player, but he has a LONG way to go. He’s NOT a good player RIGHT NOW. I’m not sure I would trade McGee for him.
Formerly know as iNFamous SWaGG
do you know how many good players were inefficienct their rookie year
Durant shot 41 percent from the field and 29 from 3
Lebron shot 41 from the field and 29 from 3
Deron Williams shot 42 percent from the field
CP3 shot 43 percent from the field and like 28 percent from 3
Melo shot 42 percent
do you realize that all these players in their rookie seasons all had to take a major role on their squads offense and adjusting to the NBA style and game is probably one of the main reason they didn’t have efficient looking stats.
and all of these players are top 10 in the league, the efficiency stat is overrated because it’s easier for players like McGee who most of their shot attempts come from dunks, putbacks and easy layups to have higher FG percentages than players who actually constantly draw attention from the opposing D. People just ignore the fact that DeMarcus was heavily relied on cause he averaged the second most points on his team behind Tyreke who missed 25 games this last season and he was actually the Kings leading rebounder his rookie year
Now everything that I’ve said doesn’t mean I’m saying they gotta trade for him, I’m just pointing out the fact that DeMarcus is easily better. just the fact that you can bring up the argument between a rookie and 3 year veteran just says that McGee isn’t that good.
How many teams wouldn’t want a 20 year old center with an already developed post game and instincts that is already a quality rebounder.. how many teams wouldn’t want that
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 23, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
and he's been better than all the players drafted before him except John
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by everybodylookin on Aug 23, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
7 footer who shot 43% with over 3 TOs per game
and had horrendous attitude issues all season. Hell they even paid his high school coach to babysit him and that wasnt enough to keep him from threatening coaches and players etc etc. Honestly he really wasnt all that great, not that he doesnt have the potential to be
Cousins wasn't all that great means McGee was pitiful and he was
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 23, 2011 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Yet McGee played better last season
so I don’t understand your logic…
If Cousins was a nobody in college, would you still feel the same way you do about him, or are you basing so much off the potential he showed at Kentucky?
How did McGee play better
McGee averaged less points, slightly less rebounds, showed significantly less basketball IQ, did not draw attention from the opposing D like Cousins, and did not consistently play well on either side of the ball.
Everything I said about DeMarcus vs. Javale doesn’t have anything to do with how he played in college NOTHING AT ALL. I didn’t base anything off potential it was mostly about how he’s simply better basketball player.
Everyone wants to reply to the post about John having to deal with those bums Javale and Dray but yet they ignoring the youtube videos displaying Cousins significantly better basketball skills than McGee
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 23, 2011 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
you ignore he is 7' and shot 43%. That's terrible.
believe me i see the same skills in Cuz you do and I absolutely think he could be one of the most dominant Bigs….but he has a long way to go and displays possibly the worst attitude of any player in the league. Those are big hurdles to overcome
Exactly
Demarcus took a lot more shots than Javale, shouldn’t he average more points? Yet, Javale was able to get his points much more efficiently than Demarcus, as Demarcus shot a horrible percentage. Plus, as has been said, Demarcus turned the ball over horribly. Factor in that Demarcus had a pretty horrible year defensively as well, and you see how he played worse than Javale.
Yeah Demacus displays more abilities than Javale, but he doesn’t play better with those abilities.
You notice all those players you posted were perimeter players?
Big men don’t start off shooting 43% and turning the ball over as much as that, they just don’t. He’s got a long way to go.
Also to close this discussion
I could post some vids of his games last season just to prove he’s better, since I know a lot of ya’ll probably did not get to see him last season constantly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nCg0M2nPfM
now do you think Javale will EVER be able to pull off some off these things DeMarcus has done in this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecsv6zJxfSM
Does anyone think Javale will EVER be able to hand out 6 assists in a game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkh3BtMJOc&feature=related
Does anyone think Javale will ever have this basketball skill in the post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB9V2VN2sME&feature=related
Does anyone think Javale will EVER learn to play positional defense like this
and Cousins has the ability to do this while Javale probably wishes he could
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 23, 2011 6:34 PM EDT reply actions
Cousins can’t do this. This. Or really not any of this.
Here is the debate… Do you take the more skilled, more intelligent player, with a severe attitude problem? The kind of attitude that can destroy a team and get a him thrown off it, one way or the other, very quickly. A guy that could potentially be an offensive post weapon rivalled by few in today’s NBA. With the refined abilties to be a very good rebounder soon. All of the positive of course depending on if he decides to step on the court in a good mood that night.
Or do you take the player with rare athleticism that can be applied on to both the offensive and defensive sides of the court. A guy that, with a little discipline, could be the best shot blocker in the league. Have an unrivaled impact on defense and on the offensive board. The guy that has the physical tools to be a good rebounder… All of the positives depending on if he can improve his basketball IQ, something that as much as Cousins’s attitude, is not a promise.
I think Javale can define a team’s defensive identity and be the ultimate anchor, like Chandler or Dwight. I think Cousins can be one of the best scoring C’s in the league, an above average rebounder, but I don’t ever see him being a great defender. So whose question marks do you like better? I like Javale’s.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 23, 2011 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
His IQ is just so low
DeMarcus has skills that he can use for the rest of his life while most of the things McGee does on court is based purely on athleticism, that’ll eventually fade away in his early 30s.
The main reason I prefer DeMarcus is cause he brings to the table what every championship team has needed the last decade to win and that’s skilled low post scoring.
Mavs had Dirk
Lakers repeated with Gasol at the 4
Celtics won with KG
Spurs had Duncan
Wade had Shaq
Pistons had Sheed
Kobe had Shaq
Javale could turn into a defensive anchor but he seems so selfish and eager to try and get silly highlights instead of learning the dimensions of the game, but this could all be different if he actually puts his physical gifts to use and develop some IQ and play within himself, but all the “potential” and “value” that’s brought up when talking bout him will just fade away in the next 2 years cause he’ll be 25 in his 5th year and if he actually doesn’t use that athleticism to become consistently productive then he’s just viewed as another serviceable big who’s only in the league cause he’s 7 feet.
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 23, 2011 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Since when is Dirk is a low post scorer?
The Mavs didnt have a low post scoring threat and they won the nba championship. The idea you must have old school post play to win in the nba is no longer valid. None of the 4 Conf Finalists (Mia-Chi,Dall-OkC) had legit low post scoring. That’s not to say you can’t win with post play or that you should not draft players with those skills…but it’s clearly no longer the only way to a Championship.
Exactly
The teams that are coming up in this league are not built around Shaq or Duncan. They are built from the perimeter, inward.
I think you need a stable of solid big men. Throw in a Javale Mcgee and thats fine. But there aren’t many Dwight Howard’s out there at this point.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 24, 2011 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Sheed too
It’s a different NBA these days with the new rules, so comparisons historically don’t do much for me.
I see your, “His IQ is just so low.” and raise you, Demarcus’s attitude is just so bad. It’s the base of this whole thing.
And I really don’t see much that Dirk, Gasol, KG, Duncan, Sheed, and Shaq had in common. And Cousins has some in common with all of them, but not a lot in common with any of them(Well maybe Rasheed). They are big men. But not similar ones. THe main contribution of all of those guys besides Shaq, was not low-post scoring anyway.
Plus, we are a different team than allllll of them. We are building around a PG. If we win a title with Wall, then our team is going to be built around him. Our offense will not be based on Demarcus Cousins. Overall, I am pretty sure the NBA is changing. Old-school post players are not something you will need to win a title.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 24, 2011 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
you do realize that all teams that were built around point guards and actually won championships also had a PF or C who was consistently good on
I think the only PG’s to actually win finals MVP are Chauncy, Isaiah, Magic,and Tony Parker
You do know Magic had Kareem right
Parker had Duncan
Chauncy had Sheed and big ben
Isaiah had Bill Laimbeer and Rodman
any team built around a PG needs a legit big for them to win championships, historically speaking.
and to address the poster talking about none of the 4 teams in the conference finals had post scorers, well the only team you can say that for is OKC, but Miami had an all star face up 4 in Bosh, Bulls brought in Boozer to be a post scorer but he failed, and I consider Dirk a post scorer cause he’s a powerforward that just has 3 point range.
Point in is that the usually NBA title winner will have reliable bigs who can score with the exception of the MJ and Pippen Bulls.
The whole reason this team drafted John is so that he could be part of a core that can compete for a title but he won’t even be able to compete in the playoffs if he isn’t put with a quality all star caliber or high big and probably a well rounded swingman.
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
there was a few errors in this
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by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the NBA is changing
Not the NBA of the 80’s and 90’s that you are talking about.
And you are agreeing, though you don’t know it.
but Miami had an all star face up 4 in Bosh, Bulls brought in Boozer to be a post scorer but he failed, and I consider Dirk a post scorer cause he’s a powerforward that just has 3 point range
You just said that none of those teams had post scoring. Simple as that.
And no Dirk is not a ‘post scorer’. The Bulls knew Boozer is not so much a post scorer, as a scoring big man. Don’t mistake a guy being able to score at 6’10"+ as a post scorer, just because he is big. Bosh is not a post player.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 24, 2011 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions
when you say "the league is changing" as in you don't need an atleast all star caliber PF or C you're wrong
Just cause there have been teams the last 5 years building their teams with perimeter players, doesn’t mean you can just win a title with just putting guys who rebound and defend at the 4 and 5. Just like the 80s and 90s this past decade of NBA title winners have had atleast all star caliber players at the 4 and 5
out of all the past 12 NBA champions 9 of those teams had HOF players at the 4 or 5
the 3 peat lakers had Shaq… a hall of famer
the Spurs had Duncan.. a hall of famer
Heat had Shaq a.. hall of famer
Celtics had Kevin Garnett.. a hall of famer
and the most recent champs the Mavs had Dirk Nowitzki a hall of famer
Now look at the 3 other squads who won titles the past 11 years with a hall of fame player at the 4 or 5
Lakers who repeated had an all star PF, Gasol and a top 5 center Bynum
04 Pistons had a multiple time defensive player of the year Ben Wallace and an all star caliber and versatile scoring PF in Rasheed
if Wall gonna have championship caliber success it probably won’t be with Dray or Javale cause the thought of them ever making an all star team is laughable and the thought of Javale ever contending for defensive player of the year is almost laughable. Well McGee could turn into a player that supports an all star caliber PF kinda like how Perkins supported KG but he has a lot of improvement to do.
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions
there were a couple errors in this too
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions
meant to put all star caliber when referring to Gasol, Bynum, Rasheed, and Ben
BRING BACK DA BULLETS
by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions
So your point is
That we will not be successful unless we obtain a HOF or close to it caliber big man? I disagree wholeheartedly.
While I am not totally sold on Javale, I think if he develops reasonably over the next, I dunno, three years, and is our best big man, then that will be enough.
I mean, according to you, OKC doesn’t really have a chance to contend right? They need to seriously shake it up. Maybe trade Westbrook for Bynum. A [player you proclaimed] top 5 center.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 24, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think OKC gonna win a title til they get a legit big that they don't have
lmao how are you gonna use one team as an example why I used 12 teams as an example. If it takes Javale 3 years to actually become productive then by that time the team probably would’ve drafted another PF or C cause you can’t just wait 3 years for an already somewhat experienced NBA player to develop, so 3 more years of Javale trying to dunk on people from the FT line and John Wall leaves to join Eric Gordon and Blake Griffin in LA… hooray
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by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
OKC beat the only playoff team with consistent low post options
the Grizz have ZBo and Gasul and could not beat an OKC whose scoring is almost all perimeter based. That’s what is happening in the nba NOW, not 10 years ago
"OKC beat the only playoff team with consistent low post options"
I guess the Magic don’t have Dwight, the Lakers didn’t have Gasol, the Spurs didn’t have Duncan, Blazers didn’t have Aldridge, the Knicks didn’t have Stat or the Heat didn’t have Bosh.
How can ya’ll seriously say guys like Bosh or Dirk aren’t guys who can score in the low post when they play the PF-C position and both were pivotal parts of their squads getting to the finals.
you do know that Memphis probably WOULD HAVE beaten OKC if they had the face of the franchise Rudy Gay.. forgot bout him?
and besides back to Javale if he is still developing when he’s in his 5th or 6th season than he probably ain’t gonna develop into the all star caliber big ya’ll think he will.
Just cause the league has become more perimeter oriented don’t mean that you just gonna be able to ditch having productive bigs on your team
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by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
and to address the person talking bout Westbrook for Bynum
I wouldn’t do it obviously cause Bynum is too injury prone but if say the Magic put Dwight on the market and they’re willing to do Westbrook, Ibaka, Sefalosha or somebody for Dwight I’d easliy do that deal cause putting the best center in the league next to arguably the best scorer is practically guaranteeing championship level success
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by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
so Memphis would have beaten OKC if they had their franchise wing player
who would have taken shots away from ZBo and Gasul in the paint?
Dirk is not a post player no matter how many times you say he is, check the stats, he scores within 10ft less than Mcgee does. Something like 70% of Dirk’s shots are Js outside of 10ft
to put this in a simple way
Wait so you don’t think the grizzlies probably could’ve beaten OKC if they didn’t have their 20 + point scorer to go along with Zach and Gasol… really?
Even if Dirk isn’t a post player, he’s a player that fits the description of someone 6’9 or taller who can play at an all star /superstar level and looking at the teams that made the playoffs most of them had guys like that who could do that.
Ya’ll seriously think that this team can just throw a center who most of the time looks like a chicken with his head cutoff out there and a PF who don’t even care and expect to win just cause the PG is good… no
Just accept the fact that this squad ain’t gonna go nowhere til they are to get a center/poweforward or versatile wing through the draft or trade.
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by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
You keep moving the goalposts
“You have to have a low post scorer.” and then “You just have to have a HOF big man,” then back to, “You have to have a low post scorer,”. And now:
get a center/poweforward or versatile wing through the draft or trade.
No duh we need to get a better PF or C or SF. That really was not your point at first.
But do you really think Cousins is the answer to this question?
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 24, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I just said DeMacus was better than javale
ya’ll keep implying as if I’m saying this team needs to trade for him when I’m simply telling why he’s better at the game of basketball.
Never said they needed a HOF big man, said they needed someone of all star caliber and that neither of the ones on this team will ever be that player
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by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is it?
“this squad ain’t gonna go nowhere til they are to get a center/powerforward or versatile wing "
Looking at last year’s PER for every player at every position, here’s how the Wizard’s ranked:
McGee 14th of the centers
Wall 23rd of the point guards
Young 25th of the shooting guards
Blatche 26th of the power forwards
The bestof our SF was 37th of all PFs
I don’t see the problem as the center. The Wiz need a defender/rebounder at the 4 and a shooter at the 3. After that, they need a lot better chemistry among the players.
by Izman on Aug 24, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
You can't judge how good a player is just by PER
and this team needs more than just a shooter at small forward they need a dynamic multidimensional player.
the only multidimensional player on this team is Wall, usually very successful teams have atleast 2 or 3 of those type of players who can play at an all star level
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by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
How can ya’ll seriously say guys like Bosh or Dirk aren’t guys who can score in the low post when they play the PF-C position and both were pivotal parts of their squads getting to the finals.
87 percent of Dirk’s shots were jumpers.
71 percent of Bosh’s shots were jumpers.
by Mike Prada on Aug 24, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
You are missing the point BIG time.
You used teams from different decades as your examples. Different Decades.
I have said like 97 times that we are talking about a different NBA. All of the players you mentioned are retired or on their very last leg.
Dallas has no post scoring at all. They do have the anti-Cousins, Tyson Chandler. Shawn Marion posted up his matchup more than anyone else in the Finals. Bosh is not a consistent post scorer, period. OKC beat a team that with your formula, should have gone much deeper. And OKC doesn’t have post scoring at all. And LA, the other team that has multiple post scorers, also didn’t get out of the second round.
Do you get my point?
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 24, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not against post players or something dumb like that
If we can obtain a solid post scorer, then fine. But I know you don’t absolutely have to have one like you are saying.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 24, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Green was suppose to be Oklahoma's big
but he was a tweener in the Jamison mold and usually you can’t win with those types and not all the players I mentioned are at the end of their careers
Aldridge is in his 5th year
Amare is in his 9th
Bosh is in his 8th
Gasol is in his 10th
and how is Bosh not a consistent scorer? 18 points a game and 49 percent from the field isn’t consistent enough? Besides he wasn’t able to score as much as he did in Toronto cause he now has to play with 2 other guys who can’t play off ball
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by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Tweeners can still win championships and be key contributors
and Shawn Marion was part of that, though yes, he is now past his prime.
But Marion can defend multiple positions
I said Jamison mold as in not able to defend the 4 and not quick enough to defend the 3
That’s one of the reasons I wasn’t sure if I’d wanted to see this team trade McGee (even though I don’t like him) for the guy from Arizona, Derrick Williams cause I wasn’t sure if he’d be able to defend either forward and defense wins championships.
If Williams was a legit 6’10 or 6’11 I’d be glad if they’d trade for him cause he could end up like Amare with better rebounding but he’s only like 6’8
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by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly, all you're really saying is that the Wizards need someone better than the current edition of Blatche or McGee
To win a championship. Which is true, except that’s like going straight from college to practicing law without going through law school and taking the bar.
by Mike Prada on Aug 24, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
pretty much
but some of these excuses for Javale are just laughable like pulling out the silly player efficiency stat lol. I just checked bball reference and saw Javale had PER of 17 and a half this year and according to that stat he played at nearly the same level that LeBron James played at during his rookie year cause his rating was 18.
When I evaluate players I just use the eyeball test and just the fact he tried to jump over James Jones to dunk from the line he gets an F which would be a PER of 5 according to wiki. With some of the stuff I’ve seen from him I wonder why he wasn’t sent to the D league his rookie year.
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by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
So lets assume he had three blocks
10 rebounds and 10 points in that game… The fact he tried one boneheaded dunk discounts allll of that?
Now lets use our immagination… Let us pretend he learns to subtract that one boneheaded move from the game, is he still a bum?
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 24, 2011 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
if he got 10 rebounds every night and learned to just use his wingspan instead of leavin his feet when anyone even raises the ball as if they're gonna shoot
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by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
We can def agree
He has learning still to do.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Aug 24, 2011 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow. This post has been a real eye-opener.
Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that the next time I see this post will be via a link in a Bill Simmons article about 5 or 6 years from now?
.
"I watch (UK) every night... I am going to support them for the rest of my life. I'm a Wildcat for the rest of my life." -- JWall, 2/8/11
I still don't see why Cousins was a beast....
Slam Online said he scored 18 points and that McGee scored 24.
Certainly, Cousins couldn’t have played much D given the opposing team scored 134 points.
In looking at the Top 10 plays, I see only one for Cuz and several for McGee.
McGee had more blocks.
How many rebounds did Cuz have?
I didnt see the game either but remember the kings-wiz game in DC?
Cousins was 1 for 75 or something and he was impressive as hell. He IS a beast and by far the best bigman prospect in the game right now.
I would trade Blatche and McGee for him if he wasnt such a winer. Its a mute debate for lots of reasons but the real point here is the lack of chemistry between Wall and McGee. Like I said, Wall has shown disrespect to Javale and I think he is right.
Wake up Javale! Pierre must die and you must recognize that Wall is your ticket to superstardom and millions of dollars. Act like it!
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Aug 24, 2011 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Wiz-Sac games?
McGee didn’t start the first game, but played 29 minutes and had 9 boards, 1 block and 13 points. He was +3.
Cuz played 23 minutes and had 5 boards, 0 blocks, 10 points and was -5.
The second game was in DC. McGee played 43 minutes, had 11 boards, 1 block and 10 points. He was +19.
Cuz played 37 minutes and had 8 boards, 1 block and 10 points. He was – 11.
Is that impressive?
I remeber that game in DC
and even though Cousins shot a mediocre FG%, he was getting around McGee whenever he wanted. It’s just that he was missing easy bunnies around the basket.
Formerly know as iNFamous SWaGG
I was at that game
Demarcus started off pretty good, looked like it was going to be a long night for Javale. But then for some reason Demarcus just started sucking, and taking bad shots. Kinda reminded me of Dray tbh.
I remember Carl Landry was lighting us up though.
But I’ll be honest, I don’t remember much of the Kings in the second half, because all I could focus on was Nick getting his 44 points.
+/- doesn't tell the whole story obviously.
but I’d have to watch the whole game again to see how well he played in context…. Also, you’ll have to see their entire body of work not just against each other. We know what McGee can do and can’t do, but we can’t say the same with DeMarcus unless we’re Kings fans.
My memory is that Demarcus misses a lot of open looks vs Javale
but the guy shoots 33% from 10-15’ so I’m thinking those are shots he missed all season.
yet Sac won all of 24 games
If they were both on the board draft day I would have taken Cousins 10x outta 10….hell, Mcgee was an unknown. But after Cousins rookie year of terrible behavior I’m pretty happy we didnt end up with him, he would have walked all over Flip and been a complete nightmare for the organization. As a ROOKIE he gets fighting mad without the touches he feels he deserves. As a ROOKIE. There is a chance he’ll get much worse before he gets better in that regard
True.
Still take my chances that he will become a star though ;-)
Thing is, we aint giving up McGee and the Kings dont seem to want to trade Cousins so its a not a debate really. To me the real significance is the Wall-McGee relationship. They are the franchise, they are the core pieces to build around. They better get on the same page for the benefit of their the team and themselves.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Aug 24, 2011 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Wall's the only legit core player on this team
when I think of players I’d consider as a core player is someone like a Miami big 3, Westbrook & Durant, Gordon and Blake, Gay & Randolph, Stat & Melo, Aldridge & Roy, Kobe & Gasol, etc. You can’t say McGee is a core player on this team cause he’s not even top 10 at his position and his position has least depth in the NBA. When you build a core it has to consist of all star caliber players and atleast 1 superstar. McGee never becoming an all star but he can become someone to complement a core as a role player just like Nick Young
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by everybodylookin on Aug 24, 2011 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
can you name 10 Cs who are definitively better than Mcgee?
better yet, can you name 10 who were better at age 23 than he is right now?
Well
McGee is not in the same talent tier with the players you mention and in that way, you are right Wall is the only legit building block.
To Ernie however, McGee is a core piece. The question is, is it good enough to have Wall and McGee as your core? To me this is exactly the reason why I wanted to move up in the draft so badly.
This is also why I tend to agree with the pro Cousins group in that Cousins’his raw talent makes him legit in itself. Thats why I said I would trade Blatche + McGee for him.
The Kings however are not trading him for the very same reason and Ernie rightfully sees McGee as an important asset. Javale might not be or become as good as Cousins could be but he’s got the potential to be a second or third tier star in this league. Make no mistake about it, thats still very very good.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Aug 25, 2011 4:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Dwight
Bynum
Noah
Lopez
Hibbert
Marc Gasol
Okafor
Cousins
Bogut
Chandler
Nene
Greg Monroe
Camby
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by everybodylookin on Aug 25, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
so I named 13 who I view are better
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by everybodylookin on Aug 25, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Dwight is in a class by himself
The rest on your list are indistinguishable from McGee going into the season. That is, McGee could be better than any of or all of them by the end of the season. The same is true for most others on the list.
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