2011/12 Washington Wizards Road Map: In The Footsteps Of The Oklahoma City Thunder God
The only lightning in a bottle I want to start with when it comes to the Oklahoma City Thunder is the cook in the kitchen: Sam Presti. Much like Danny Ainge of the Boston Celtics, there was a dismantling to be done when Presti came to town. The then-Seattle Supersonics hadn't been back to the playoffs (or over .500 for that matter) since a 2005 second-round exit at the hands of the Spurs. Rather than mortgage the team's future in attempt to contend, Presti beat swords into plowshares and while some say luck was a major factor, a closer look shows that fortune wasn't paving the road for a textbook rebuild. Presti wrote it.
Getting a high lottery pick for Ray Allen is good value, although the Rashard Lewis trade seemed more like a salary dump. That is, until the Suns continued their tradition of front-office excellence and acquired the trade exception for no less than two first round picks and Kurt Thomas. Russell Westbrook was a pick that surprised most pundits, but I came across a couple of quotes while researching that should explain the surprise selection:
Coach Gregg Popovich was unimpressed with a young guard, Tony Parker from France, that they had been working out. "You're wasting my time," said Popovich to Buford and Presti. "This kid is terrible."
[Presti was] regarded as a salary cap wizard with intuitive scouting skills, plus designed the Spurs scouting database (which relies heavily on quantitative and analytical data to determine a player's worth), and is now used by other NBA teams as well.
I will translate: he didn't invent analytics, he successfully applied them to pull NBA Finals MVP Tony Parker out of the ether. When you think about the dominance of the Spurs and the reputation of their scouting department, Presti's legacy gets that much more impressive. Maybe Westbrook's success shouldn't really have surprised anyone.
But this is a Wizards blog, and as well satisfied and heartened as we are by Ernie Grunfeld's recent performance, there isn't really a GM in the NBA I'd feel completely comfortable stacking up against the Thunder god's mythos. A full resume of his tenure would be Machiavelli meets War and Peace, so I'll hit a few high points:
- Supersonics trade Ray Allen and pick #35 (Glen Davis) to the Celtics for Wally Szczerbiak, Delonte West, and 2007 #5 pick (Jeff Green)
- Supersonics trade Rashard Lewis to the Magic for a conditional second round pick and a $9 million trade exception which becomes Kurt Thomas, 2008 #18 (Serge Ibaka), and 2010 #26 (Quincy Pondexter) via trade with the Suns, Pondexter was traded along with 2010 #21 (Craig Brackins) became 2010 #11 (Cole Aldrich). Thus, Rashard Lewis, a conditional second round pick and the 2010 #21 became Kurt Thomas, Serge Ibaka, and Cole Aldrich.
- Thunder trade Johan Petro and 2009 #34 (Sergio Llull) to the Nuggets for Chucky Atkins and 2009 #26 (Taj Gibson), which became Thabo Sefolosha via trade with the Bulls
- Thunder trade rights to Peter Fehse to the Jazz for Eric Maynor and Matt Harpring
- Thunder trade 2010 #32 (Dexter Pittman) to the Heat for Daequan Cook and 2010 #18 (Eric Bledsoe), Bledsoe was traded to the Clippers for a top 10 protected first round pick, which will likely become the Clippers 2012 first round pick. Thus, 2010 #32 for Daequan Cook, and the Clippers 2012 first rounder.
- Thunder trade Jeff Green and Nenad Krstic to the Celtics for Kendrick Perkins and Nate Robinson
- Drafted Jeff Green, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, and James Harden in the lottery
There's probably plenty I'm missing, but the guy came into a floundering franchise and turned Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, Johan Petro, the rights to Peter Fehse, several high second rounders and a few low first rounders into a starting frontcourt on a Western Conference Finals squad, two key rotation players, a big man project, and a mid first rounder in likely one of the most stacked rookie classes in years. Depending on whether or not you count Cole Aldrich, the man's been Chuck Norris with a sniper rifle when drafting in the lottery.
The Thunder model requires an expert GM, so we have to put Ernie and Sam against a wall and see how they measure up. I know this is a contentious topic, so hopefully we'll bypass the worst of it and focus on Grunny's work after Ted took over. And so, a history under the new regime (brief as it is):
- Wizards trade the rights to Vladimir Veremeenko to the Bulls for Kirk Hinrich and the 2010 #17 (Kevin Seraphin), Hinrich was traded along with Hilton Armstrong to the Hawks for Jordan Crawford and the 2011 #18 (Chris Singleton)
- Wizards trade the 2010 #30 (Lazar Hayward) and #35 (Nemanja Bjelica) to the Timberwolves for 2010 #23 (Trevor Booker) and #56 (Hamady N'Diaye)
- Wizards trade Gilbert Arenas to the Magic for Rashard Lewis
- Drafted John Wall and Jan Vesely in the lottery, Shelvin Mack with the 2011 #34
Whether you like them or not, his draft holdovers are bearing fruit. Taken with his recent moves, it's one hell of a beginning, and while he's got some way to go, I have no complaints thus far. I don't know who could have done more with what he started with. For those of you who might argue he put himself in that hole, we made our run at contention and it didn't work out.
But it takes more than an expert GM merely putting the pieces together. Presti repeatedly asserted to other GMs and the media that Green, Durant, and Westbrook were sacrosanct, essential to the future of the franchise. With the rise of so-called Thunder U, a player culture quickly evolved, guided by coach Scott Brooks. Quick note on Brooks: after starting 1-12 during the 2008/09 season (the franchise's first in OKC), Presti fired then-head coach P.J. Carlesimo. The interim promotion of Brooks, a new and rabid fanbase and a young, confident, talented core with bulletproof vests straight from the GM all combined to forge a contender in the extremely competitive Western Conference.
There are a couple things we need to effectively follow this model that will all bear further scrutiny as the lockout drags on. The two I'm looking for:
1. Team culture fostered via player continuity
- Presti came out and said Jeff Green, Kevin Durant, and Russell Westbrook were the future of the franchise prior to the 2009 draft. This was in line with his goals of establishing the identity, character, and style of the team. He set those three players in stone and the young core of the Thunder delivered.
- From the Wizard's perspective, John Wall is the only bulletproof player on the roster. EG highly values Javale McGee, Ted Leonsis hosted a coming out for the new Big 3 in his blog (Andray Blatche, Jordan Crawford, and our resident Golden Boy), but while we've committed to youth and toughness we don't yet know who's going to pan out.
- As MR pointed out several weeks ago, we could really use a Nick Collison. A tough-minded veteran who can provide impact without detracting from the young guns. We're likely about to find out if this is a luxury or a necessity.
- This year's development is absolutely crucial to following the Thunder model. The sooner a hierarchy is established, the sooner we can worry about wins instead of pecking order.
2. Evolution of the 4th quarter mentality
You know, I've forgotten who mentioned this first last year, but the comment recurred often enough after halftime to make it a Bullets Forever meme:
Now that we've avoided our usual 1st and 2nd quarter collapses, if we can just avoid our customary 3rd and 4th quarter collapses we might be able to win this game.
- After he took over from P.J. Carlesimo, Brooks preached a philosophy of staying competitive into the fourth quarter. He wanted his team to be there late in games, and was less worried about things ended at the start. In other words, while experience can and will put you over the top when games get tight, until you're in those situations, you won't get the lessons you need to survive in the playoffs.
- This is where the wild inconsistency we've seen in our youth really starts to stick in our craw. Inconsistency shows up in pressure situations like nobody's business. At the same time, it should serve as a weather vane indicating who's making progress and who still needs work. Flip Saunders knows how to win in the playoffs, and now that roster is the most stable it's ever been under his tenure, he has to show these kids how to fight together and earn a W on a consistent basis.
- Win or die together. When the season ends, I want to see Gordy LeChance and Chris Chambers grinning at each other in my head while Stand By Me plays in the background when I think of the tenacity of this team. As Al-Ben Franklin-Pacino said, our guys must play, now, as a team, or be traded as individuals.
In short, the Thunder model is a Disney reality show. A bunch of talented fun-loving athletes come together in a once-proud franchise moved to a new city under an unproven yet bright young coach taking over from a grizzled and uninspired veteran helmsman while a charming whiz kid GM with new fangled ideas challenges the status quo. They go from zero to taking the reviled eventual-champion Lakers to seven games in Round One. The next year they fall in a tight five-game series to the eventual-champion Mavericks in the Western Conference Finals while introducing trouble in paradise with the Westbrook saga. It's anyone's guess when Season 3 of Disney's Thunder in Presti-dise will kick off. Can the team overcome their internal strife and emerge better than ever before, finally ready to take the crown? Tune in next season!
The Wizards get the R-rated HBO version with firearms, confrontations in the locker-room, strip clubs and hurt feelings. Beginning with strong redemption themes, the plot took a turn for the worst despite/because of the return of the team's major stars. The season ended on a down note, the owner died, a number of major players traded. Season 2 starts with a new owner, John Wall, the draft, Summer League, the Gilbert Arenas trade, court struggles, mounting injuries and tragedy in the head coach's family. Yet having a harder road every step of the way, the Wizards still find themselves in a position to forge a potent contender behind the good fortune of the draft lottery striking at just the proper time. My tastes have always been a little darker, or perhaps just being a fan of DC sports darkened my tastes. Whatever the case, I know where I'll be when play resumes.
No matter what model we follow, Flip's got his work cut out for him next season. Next week, I'll be taking a look at some of the things I'd like to see from him. Until then, comments are open, the lockout continues, and happy posting.
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Speaking of the Spurs
they traded up to get Kawhi Leonard, if either he or Markieff is better than Jan…my handle becomes “Ernie is a Bum” ;-)
No changing your handle
There IS no reset button…I’ve looked into it. The science is impossible.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 8, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I can see Javale in ten years teaching a rookie shot blocker the ropes
JM: Oh, you’re a shotblocker, all right. Just not a SUPER one.
Rookie: What’s the difference.
JM: [puts on Optimus Prime helmet and activates voice changer] PRESENTATION!
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 8, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that's definitely something I've tried to do, too
Follow me on twitter -
http://twitter.com/TheRealTPruitt
by pantslessyoda1 on Jul 8, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
needs an entry into the Urban Dictionary
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
lol can we just appreciate Vessely
because he is on this team. Also, when was the last time Spurs drafted anything more then a role player? Tony Parker? For where they are drafting , thats fine…that means successs if you have studs all around but don’t expect anything more then Leonard being a role player…
by Meraj Chowdhury on Jul 8, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Was john wall
throwing pitches for the Nats last night?
by Meraj Chowdhury on Jul 8, 2011 10:37 AM EDT reply actions
haha sorry i meant it as
a reply to DCrez as to there is no basketball due to lockout:
trying to combine all the elements with the Nats giving up an 8 run lead combining with John Wall’s awful first pitch a few weeks back
by Meraj Chowdhury on Jul 8, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
An intersting model to look at
may be the grizzles…a mix of Vets and young players
by Meraj Chowdhury on Jul 8, 2011 11:14 AM EDT reply actions
that's an equal mix of gambling and crazy...
the Charles Barkley model…I was thinking about the Grizz, actually…but like I joked a second ago, I’m not really sure what their model was
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 8, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Crazy gamble on
Z-Bo but got good home grown talent with the likes of Marc Gasol, Rudy Gay, OJ Mayo, Vasquez
by Meraj Chowdhury on Jul 8, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure you can call Gasol "home grown".....
They got Marc Gasol in a trade for which the Grizzlies were roundly criticized….
Other than his first few weeks, Vasquez has not shown much – and will probably take a much smaller role next year with the acquisition of Josh Selby and the return to health of Xavier Henry. The Griz are loaded at Guard (Conley, OJ Mayo, Tony Allen, Ishmael Smith, Henry, Sam Young, Josh Selby and Vasquez)…..
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Are the Grizzles anything like the Ruttles?
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
You could almost make the case that we've been more successful in the draft than they have
I don’t think we have anyone on the team right now other than Seraphin who’s really underperformed their draft position, while a few of our guys – Booker, McGee, Blatche (who’s got his problems but is probably more of a positive than a negative) and most likely Singleton – have looked like steals. The Thunder have done a good job of drafting and acquiring high character guys, but they really only have six guys – Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, Perkins to an extent, Collison, and Harden – who you could really consider anything more than typical role players. It actually says a lot about how good they’ve been at acquiring assets when you take into account how bad they whiffed on the Aldrich and Green picks.
Follow me on twitter -
http://twitter.com/TheRealTPruitt
True
Although I’d still be worried about his knees if I were the Thunder.
Follow me on twitter -
http://twitter.com/TheRealTPruitt
by pantslessyoda1 on Jul 8, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
That also is true
But their medical staff is thorough almost to a fault (Chandler), and the first year back from that surgery is always the worse.
Not lost on me, either.
Not sure Green was really a bust, though. Eric Maynor might be more than your typical role player, but I’ve been very happy with how EG’s projects have turned out
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 8, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't call it the right pick
Noah would have been perfect for them. But it wasn’t a disaster either.
It's also a bit premature to say anything about the Aldrich pick....
I just cannot see where anyone can say they “whiffed” on a player that only played 18 games last year.. Aldrich was behind Nick Collison, Ibaka, Nazr Mohammed and later Kendrick Perkins on the depth chart…
The Thunder are bringing their two young centers along very, very slowly (2010 First round pick, Aldrich and 2009 First round pick Byron Mullens)… It may take 2 or 3 more years to really assess whether Aldrich (and Mullins) were good picks, or not….
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
the fact he played in only 18games is exactly why people say he was a whiff.
the team was desperate for interior play and the 11th pick in the draft, a 22yr old junior, could not see the floor. That’s a pretty bad sign imo
Or we could just say they understood futility
they drafted guys they knew weren’t ready for the floor, and throwing them on the court wouldn’t make it so
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 8, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Good post
I can’t argue with much of what you say, but regarding EG, even if you ignore the pre-Leonsis era, the issue should be whether he did enough given the picks that he had. Given what we have (which is a deficit of talent), I hope he understands what we are lacking (e.g., young shooter at the 3 and a big defender/rebounder at the 4) and puts together a plan to get there (whether it is trades, FAs or future drafts).
For example, what is a realistic expectation for Vesely this year, if EG thinks he has all-star potential down the road? I say that because if Vesely doesn’t develop as EG envisions, they need to be prepared to make another move.
I hear you
Figure one of those (the shooter 3 or Serge Ibaka clone at the 4) to be addressed in next year’s draft…for the other, we’ll have to cross our fingers that EG pulls another rabbit out of a hat
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 8, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
An all-star in 3-4 years
Given that he has professional experience, he should be able to get a 15 PER over 20 minutes a game in his first season. If he can do that, Prada will be right about his D because his O isn’t going to improve too quickly.
At the 3...
…, I guess. He’d have to add a lot of muscle to be an all-star at the 4. But EG loves the guy. Maybe
he’ll be the back-up center. Of if Jeffries can guard the 2…..
Right now....
Vesely is a 3… He’s played almost exclusively the Small Forward position in Europe for the last 3 years…
As he matures, puts on muscle and bulk, he may morph into a Power Forward…. but personally, I hope not… I’d love to see the Wizards with a 6’11" Small Forward for the next 10 years…
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
by Rook6980 on Jul 8, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
It’s that Triplet Towers thing that might become a reality…
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 8, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
will he be quick enough to stay with a quick 3?
"Talent is God-given; be humble. Fame is man-given; be grateful. Conceit is self-given; be careful." John Wooden
I don't know. To me the Thunder "model" was just drafting Durant
I mean, they completely annihilated that team, lost a bazillion games, then lucked into Durant (most years, the #2 pick isn’t a superstar: Thabeet, Beasley, Turner, etc, etc). Without Durant, that’s a 30-win team, right? This is the sans-Durant lineup:
PG: Westbrook/Maynor
SG: Harden/Robinson
SF: Sefalosha/Cook
PF: Ibaka/Collison
C: Perkins/Mohammed
That’s kind of lousy, and shows just how good Durant is. Presti has done a nice job with some draft picks, but other than that, I’m not really that impressed. If Wall gets as good as Durant, Ernie will look pretty smart too — in that sense, I’d like to follow the Thunder model.
by steadyhand on Jul 8, 2011 11:40 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think you underestimate Westbrook and Harden
That’s definitely a playoff team.
by Mike Prada on Jul 8, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe
I do like a lot of those guys, but I just don’t see enough offense there. OTOH, with Durant, they don’t need it, so that’s probably not a fair evaluation — they would have built differently. Presti has done a nice job, I just don’t have the same awe of the OKC model as others seem to. If Portland had drafted Durant, and Oden had broken down in OKC, we’d likely be having this conversation about the Portland model instead.
Take Kobe off the Lakers
And they don’t look very good either. I think the challenge of a GM isn’t just finding the superstar, but finding the right pieces to put around him. The success of the Thunder rebuild has been the ability to get players who fit around Durant. It’s what makes Presti a successful GM and Kevin McHale largely a failure.
by GJennings on Jul 8, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure
But OKC hasn’t made it past the second round with one of the top 5 players in the league. Seems like the pieces aren’t all there yet (or haven’t developed yet, at least).
Really though, I just don’t quite see how this is a replicable model:
Step 1: Gut your roster.
Step 2: Draft a top 10 scorer of all time.
Step 3: Put decent young guys around him. (Note: Draft another all star the next year.)
Step 4: Contend for years to come!
by steadyhand on Jul 8, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What?
OKC hasn’t made it past the second round
They lost to the Mavs in the WCF, no? Round 3?
As far as the parallels to our situation:
Step 1: Gutted our roster.
Step 2: Drafted a top 10 PG of all time.
Step 3: Putting decent young guys areound him. (Jury out pending breakout year)
Step 4: Does this sound completely alien?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 8, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
And they went from cellar
to pushing the eventual champions to seven and six games respectively, those are some massive leaps.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 8, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
heh, whoops...I'm sick!
Wicked head cold! Mulligan!
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 8, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
AND I didn't even put in
surviving from Round 1 to Round 3…jeez
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 9, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Oops
My bad. Felt like a 2nd round exit, because their 2nd round opponent was the 8 seed and then they got taken down quickly.
Yes, we’re TRYING to do the same thing. I was attempting to ironically say that it’s not a strategy so much as seriously lucky (and skilled TOO). Every team is trying to draft all world players and all stars. It’s very lucky to strike gold the way OKC has with Durant and Westbrook (but more so Durant). Saying “let’s do that” is like a bowling coach nodding sagely and saying “you should knock down all the pins on the first throw, in each frame”.
The jury is also out on whether Wall will be a top 10 pg. That’s quite a proclamation at this point.
Re: Wall, I'm an optimist :)
I’m trippin’ today, too…
Their team is more than Durant and Westbrook (who Presti deserves credit for drafting…unless you think it’s purely luck that Presti championed Tony Parker even when the Great Greg told the kid he was wasting his time).
I would also agree with you that the draft is too often a gamble, but as any bowling coach would tell you, it’s all about technique. And rocketing up from a glorified intern to head of the Spurs scouting department during their golden age and instituting analytics as a legitimate option signifies some serious technique. He’s definitely not always right…but is he right more often?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 9, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Lottery luck played a big role
OKC has had 3 top 3 picks during these recent years. The Wizards have had only 2 top 3 picks since the lottery was started back in 84.
And was the Ray Allen for Jeff Green deal actually a good one for Seattle/OKC? Allen turned out to have a lot left in the tank.
And the ultimate good luck was that OKC got the second pick rather than the first that year. I’m pretty sure they would have taken Oden #1. At the time, there was much concern about Durant’s benchpress performance at the combine. Turns out, that not a whole lot of bench pressing occurs out on the court.
Ray Allen for Jeff Green a good deal for OKC?
Absolutely. A high-ish lottery pick for a team needing to jettison the old guard and rebuild? Speaking of the rebuild, nobody could have predicted the Thunder would be so relevant, so quickly. Therefore, Allen’s ‘a lot left in the tank’ would be useless and wasted on a team not concerned with contending for years down the road. And as Mike stated above, Jeff Green turned into Kendrick Perkins.
Re: getting the #2 instead of the #1 that year, how does Memphis feel about Hasheem Thabeet versus Blake Griffin or James Harden? You work with what you have, and Presti got the right value, but as I said about Ainge, sometimes it’s smarter to be lucky than it’s lucky to be smart.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 8, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Not only was the blow up of the Supersonics roster a good thing from hindsight and necessary too regardless of the relocation situation,
but who could have predicted that the chemistry of the core between KD and Westbrook would have been as good as it was this soon?
A little off topic but, What is Xavier Henry's deal?
I know he got hurt early in the season and had the contract dispute before signing. Memphis obviously was fine without him and he wasn’t playing much before the injury anyway. I loved him coming out of Kansas and was hoping we could take him to pair with Wall. You think there is any chance Memphis would consider trading him so they can free up some more money to sign Gasol? Not sure where we would put him if we resign Young but im all for collecting talent right now and seeing what sticks.
The only way I see them comfortable with letting Henry go
is if they resign Mayo to a very reasonable deal and Josh Selby shows some promise. Even then, they’re more likely to deal Sam Young before letting X go.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 8, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
He's there?
In Ernie’s draft summation?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 9, 2011 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL
Stop insulting OKC by comparing them to the wiz….lol….seriously, while it’s good to compare, I don’t see any similarities, except when brooks seemed to be unable to make the right coaching decisions when needed.
I likes me some discussion.
I don’t see any similarities
Please detail the mechanics of the Thunder’s construction as you see them and I can offer you a meaningful response.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 9, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the Presti adulation gets a little heavy around here sometimes.
Yes Green was a whiff. Just because he turned into Perkins (the value of which is still up in the air) doesn’t excuse the pick. Otherwise Michael Jordan made a good choice with Kwame (who turned into Butler). And Ray Allen plus Glen Davis for Green doesn’t look like an amazing trade to me.
Giving him credit for Durant is no different than giving EG credit for Wall.
Westbrook is certainly a talent but it remains to be seen whether he can fit.
While Harden is a good player, is he better than Tyreke Evans or Steph Curry, each picked after him? Or even Jennings?
by MR on Jul 8, 2011 11:20 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
The point is
The Thunder made the conference finals this year and look like a team that has a great chance to win an NBA title in the next 2-3 years, and every major player on that roster is there because of Presti’s decisions.
So other "gods" include
Donnie Nelson
Mitch Kupchak
Otis Smith
Danny Ferry
Joe Dumars
Rod Thorn
Billy King
John Paxson
by MR on Jul 8, 2011 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
It's about more than just Presti
But even so, Presti hasn’t really made a bad signing. He created an environment where a fairly unique player culture was able to evolve. If you want to be super literal, I don’t see a black mark on his record, and isn’t a god relatively infallible?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 9, 2011 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Black marks
He traded away Beaubois and Glenn Davis.
He drafted Green, who even this Hoyas fan thought would be a lousy pro. He drafted two tweener fwds in the top 5 of the same draft.
He hired PJ Carlesimo, a terrible fit. He fired his hand picked head coach after one year.
He drafted Byron Mullens, Aldrich.
He passed on Tyreke Evans and Steph Curry.
by MR on Jul 9, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Beaubois has hardly contributed any more than Mullens has. Glen Davis was Danny Ainge’s pick, who is money in the later selections.
Sure Noah would have been a better pick. The other tweener you’re referring to is Kevin Durant…Presti likely thought he had his SF/PF combo of the future. When it didn’t worked he got value back. This is a black mark?
Hmm, a new GM hired a veteran coach with a resume, hardly a surprise. Rather than repeat that choice, he promoted Scott Brooks. I have a hard time seeing coach that didn’t work out as a black mark, especially when he so effectively compensated.
Mullens and Aldrich are being developed.
I’d take Westbrook over Evans. I think Harden is a better fit in OKC than Curry.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 9, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think signing for a gimpy center on an expiring contract is worth the #5 pick. Sure they signed him, but they could have done that in the offseason anyway.
The choice wasn’t Westbrook vs Evans, it was harden vs Evans. A Westbrook Evans back court would be pretty damn good.
Even I know that Carlesimo is a terrible pick for a young developing team. Or for any team really.
So sure, the guy has made some very good moves. But he is not imperfect, and frankly a lot of what he did is still very much up in the air. Take away Durant and substitute Oden and the whole house of cards falls down.
Once his team wins a championship we’ll talk.
by MR on Jul 9, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Celtics saw a guy who was playing out of position, the Thunder saw a chance to get proven a center (we’ll see if his injury continues to dog him…hopefully not, he was never a glass big man) in time for a playoff run. Presti imported Perkins big-game experience and personality as well, something else the Thunder needed. Likely Presti realized re-signing Green wasn’t the right move for the team, and acquiring Perkins in the off-season doesn’t come without risks, especially re: team fit.
Sorry…sick as hell, and not focusing well. I like Harden best, even so…Tyreke just seems to be another ball-dominant guard who would end up duplicating Westbrook’s skill set.
Heh, yeah…
Agreed. Durant sped up OKC’s rebuild just like Wall sped up ours. Different moves would have been made, and I can’t speculate about that…
After watching Carlisle conduct the Mavs like an orchestra, I’m not sure Brooks has what it takes…
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 9, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Oklahoma made the Conference Finals
with luck as well. If San Antonio beat Memphis which I think they should have, then I don’t think Oklahoma would’ve beaten the Spurs in a seven game series.
That said, the Thunder franchise should not have to apologize for being the beneficiaries of not having to play the #1 seed in the second round, though there should be an asterisk on their road to the Western Finals.
i think we have too much time on our hands
getting butler for a #1 pick isn’t good, and trying to break down a team into individuals doesn’t make sense…..the team got to the western conf finals for crying out loud, let it go, you can’t compare ish to the wiz or bullets, they haven’t been to a championship since 78. let these wiz kids grow to be themselves. While we would like to use the OKC model, it ain’t happening.
- reason……wait on it……WE DON’T HAVE THEIR GM!!
Michael Jordan made that pick. And when a #1 pick is one of the biggest busts in history and you’re still able to get serious value? How is this even a question? While no team can ever follow another’s model precisely, comprehensive analysis allows us to take a look at the conditions that allowed that model to succeed. The more conditions that stack up with our situation the better.
you can’t compare ish to the wiz or bullets, they haven’t been to a championship since 78Hmmm, the truth of your premise does not guarantee the truth of your conclusion. As we have not been to the Finals in thirty-plus years, we can’t compare ourselves with a recently rebuilt franchise. Right.
let these wiz kids grow to be themselvesI’m not intent on pigeonholing…especially since I wrote a similar article on Tuesday comparing them to the Celtics. And it’s not like I’m standing in their way. This is the internet, were discussion happens.
1. WE DON’T HAVE THEIR GM!!
Thanks.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 9, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
If you turn your failure into a success
that doesn’t excuse the failure in the first place. That’s an extremely hard line to be taking. Ray Allen and the #35, can’t blame Presti for Ainge’s drafting virtuosity in the later picks. Unless you want to. And as Mike has said re: draft picks, they have more value before the player is chosen. Green wasn’t a homerun but he wasn’t a bust, either.
I don’t give him credit for Durant, that literally gets four or five words.
Yup. Kevin Love was the only player drafted after him who might be cause for regret if we play the hindsight game, but with Presti drafting Serge Ibaka just 14 picks later, it’s likely Love wasn’t really in play.
I’d rather have James Harden than Tyreke Evans, sure. Stephen Curry? They bring different things, more to taste than anything else. Re: Jennings…I can’t imagine a scenario where I’m happier with that, especially in light of Harden’s playoff emergence.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 9, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for replying
I’m looking to widen the discussion, so sorry if all of my points were not directed completely at the OP.
I do think Green was a bust. If Vesely turns out to be what Green became then pitchforks will be out around here.
I don’t want to argue that Presti is a bad GM, because he clearly isn’t. But I’m not sure I love his picks either.
He clearly has a love of tweeners. He values defense but his team seems to have a potential fatal flaw: he only has 3 players on the team who can score. Two of them play essentially the same position and score in the same way.
He drafted a scoring PG who is having trouble being a real PG, like Arenas, Iverson etc before him.
And really the most important thing is that his team hasn’t won anything yet. Everyone talks about them as if they have. They are clearly at least one player away and Westbrook really needs to do a lot of adjusting before they get there.
And I don’t think their coach is championship caliber yet either.
by MR on Jul 9, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
No sweat...I love to digress, myself...
I respect that view on Green, and if Green and Vesely end up with similar production, that’s a fair call.
I won’t call his draft record spotless, either. It definitely took me a while to come around on James Harden.
Heh, with all the tweeners on our roster, you could definitely suggest we’re following the model :p They’re definitely running into Chicago’s problem…going to be interesting to see what moves he makes once the season starts…
Agree.
True…sometimes I wonder if it’s a Dolphins situation, where they always thought they’d be back to ‘not one, not two’ (:p) Superbowls…
No argument on Brooks’ coaching deficiencies.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 9, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I also really don't think they're one player away
They made the WCF with a core of players who are 22, 22, 21 and 21.
Yeah
And I don’t like the idea of putting an asterisk next their WCF run…Memphis made them earn it.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 9, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
While Harden is a good player, is he better than Tyreke Evans or Steph Curry, each picked after him? Or even Jennings?
Harden is way better than Jennings. Way better.
I also think Harden’s better than Curry and Evans.
by Mike Prada on Jul 9, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
who's better
is it fair to say players are better, simply because the team is better? it would be nice if everyone had a chance to perform in the same settings, then we could see who/whom is actually better. some teams need players to go full speed the whole game to succeed, while others just need a role player. Role players look fantastic by playing their role, but they needed to be the “go to guy” they may not be as fantastic.
Who says Harden is better because his team is better?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 9, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I happen to think Harden is just better
More efficient, more diverse offensively with his jumper, less of a shot jacker.
Agreed...
Undisciplined tendencies tend to get teams weeded out of the playoffs
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 9, 2011 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Most people say the opposite
Evans puts up better numbers because he has more chances because he’s his team’s star player
You've seen more than me of each of those players, but based on what I've seen I think Evans is better and maybe Curry.
But really the big question is why did he take a career 6th man with the 4th pick?
Also why did he pick two tweener fwds in the top 5 of the same draft?
by MR on Jul 9, 2011 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
As long as he's playing with Westbrook he probably will be.
Because that is a very small backcourt with two players whose skills overlap a lot.
That’s the point. Why is Presti spending all of his high picks on overlapping skill sets?
by MR on Jul 10, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
There's an old saying about starting and finishing....
Westbrook is 6’3; Harden is 6’5. That’s not a small backcourt.
So who should Presti have drafted instead of Durant, Green, and Harden with those picks? And how much does hindsight play into it? For the record, I don’t worship at the altar of Presti either, I’d just be interested to hear what you think he should’ve done differently.
There's also the consideration of stockpiling as much good talent as you can during a rebuild.
At that point (prior to the 09 draft) they were still in full stockpile mode. They hadn’t had anyt
2007 he should have picked a big at 5. Noah or Hawes. It makes no sense to pick two guys with the exact same general profile (both tweener fwds) in the top 5 in the same year.
For the record I was down on Green (right) and down on Noah (wrong).
In 2009 I think Evans would complement Westbrook better than Harden.
I understand stockpiling talent, but when you have 4 top 5 draft picks to essentially pick the same type of player (2 tweener fwds, 2 tweener guards) seems unwise.
by MR on Jul 10, 2011 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agree with pradamaster (old school)
Harden is a basketball player. His play and overall bball iq during the playoffs – esp agst Memphis was off the charts. The older I get the more I think bball iq is just oh so slightly below athleticism as the #1 necessary quality for NBA success – that’s why 7 day and Pierre scare me as prospects. Their bball iq is abysmal (esp P).
Little known fact
The 50 cent song P.I.M.P. was originally written for Mike Prada and Javale McGee. People think this Pierre business is new…naw, son.
They even got on the rock video when 50 cent sang: I’m a mother******* P.I.M.P. On the P.I., Javale would flash his bling on the right and left hands, while on the M.P. Mike would give the camera crazy eyes then flash his custom Bullets Forever grill
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jul 9, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
sums it up
that is on point. their iq and the effort isn’t always there.
effort
hopefully this new core of players will make them exceed their previous level of play. this will be a very interesting, and telling, season of basketball.

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