Nick Young - Selfish black hole? or Efficient scorer?
by Rook6980 on Jul 19, 2011 7:53 AM EDT
in Player Analysis
Email
Print
I've been in a running argument with some fellow BF posters about Nick Young. My position is that Nick is an efficient scorer - but because of his role in the Offense, he is not asked to "create" offense, but rather to finish offensive plays.
Others have pointed to Nick's anemic assist numbers as proof of "selfishness to extreme levels" making Nick worthy of "black hole" status; Noting also that Nick frequently refused to pass to open teammates under the basket - and generally poo pooing Nick's scoring as something any two-bit Johnny off the street could match. (While putting Jordan Crawford up as an example).
I simply don't remember Nick playing selfishly last year - and other than one play that stuck out on a fast break, I honestly cannot remember Nick refusing to pass to an "open teammate under the basket".... Not last year. Not from my recollection. Of course I'm old... and my brain is sometimes fuzzy about facts and such... But not usually about the Wizards. Now, I DO remember him being selfish, and being a "ball stopper" a couple years ago - before Flip Saunders' revitalization of Nick's game. I can recall times he passed up open teammates to shoot.... But not last year.
Then there's my aversion to the simplistic "X number of assists per game" argument. It just doesn't seem to tell the whole tale. As with other "simple" per game stats, they usually require some context, logic and reasoning before jumping to a hasty conclusion. This argument (Is Nick Young a selfish black hole), cannot be decided by "simple" stats. Nor will conjecture about how the Coaching staff has or has not told Nick Young to play do anything but cause further argument. So instead, I decided to look back at the 2010-2011 season and watch each and every offensive play available to me on MySynergySports.com. I hoped to draw some conclusions from watching the actual plays. I hoped to gather some facts that either proved or disproved my point. And of course, since there's no actual basketball, I'm kind of going into withdrawal.
I invite everyone else to do the same, and I hope you will enjoy the experience as much as I did. Believe me, it helped my withdrawal. There are some observations from my hours of watching Nick Young knock down shots after the jump.
Synergy shows that Nick was involved in 1,105 offensive plays that resulted in either a shot attempt, Turn Over or Free Throw attempt(s) last year. I watched each and every play, frequently rewinding and re-watching again to make sure I didn't miss anything important. Because I know that Nick Young is one of my favorite players, I tried to stay objective - and whenever there was a potential for dispute I decided to rule in favor of a Nick Young miscue or error rather than the opposite. In other words, I was brutal in my assessment of the plays.
Synergy breaks down the plays involving Nick Young on offense as follows:
Spot-up shooting = 263 plays (23.8%)
Off Screen plays = 233 plays (21.1%)
Isolation plays = 172 plays (16.2%)
Transition plays = 163 plays (14.8%)
P&R Ball Handler = 141 plays (12.8%)
P&R Roll Man = 3 plays (0.3%)
Post-Up plays = 28 plays (2.5%)
Hand off = 15 plays (1.4%)
Cuts = 19 plays (1.7%)
Offensive Rebounds = 12 plays (1.1%)
All other plays = 49 plays (4.4%)
As you can see, Spot up shooting, Screen plays, Iso's and Transition make up more than 75% of the offensive plays Nick was involved in. After watching all 1,105 plays, I was blown away by how efficient Nick was at spot-up shooting, especially 3-point spot ups. He shot 46% (69% TSP , or 1.38 points per play) from the 3-point line in spot up situations... and he hit 60% when he was wide open. ( I counted 62 instances where the opponent was too far away to get back to bother Nick when he shot - Nick drained 37 of those shots - a bunch of those shots were created by John Wall and Jordan Crawford). For comparison Ray Allen, the premier shooter in the League, shot 49% in spot up 3-point situations last year.
Shooting is the one Offensive skill that the Wizards will desperately need from someone next year. The ability to knock down open perimeter shots will be crucial not only to the Wizards winning games, but also to the continued development of John Wall and the rest of the Wizards youngsters. The Wizards have plenty of guys that can get garbage points; score in transition; score off offensive rebounds; score on cuts to the basket and other plays... They've even got some guys that could be OK mid-range shooters (Blatche, Wall, Vesely) - but unless Rashard Lewis has a flash back to his 2007 self when he was hitting 41% of his 3-pointers, the only player on the roster that can consistently hit the long perimeter shot is Nick Young. And that ONE offensive skill is crucial to making sure that teams don't pack the lane against John Wall, and just dare the Wizards to shoot from long range - - With a roster full of non-shooters (Wall, Vesely, Booker, Singleton, Crawford, etc...), that's a recipe for disaster.
Out of 1105 offensive plays, I saw exactly THREE instances where Nick shot the ball and a teammate was (semi) open either under the basket, or closer to the basket with a clear lane to the hoop... THREE TIMES - and he hit one of those shots. Three times out of 1,105 offensive plays. That is exactly 0.0027149 (or less than 3 one thousanths). One third of one percent. Meaning statistically, it just didn't happen. My guess is that if I were to watch John Wall, Jordan Crawford, or just about any other player's plays from last year - I'd find a lot more missed passes. (Oh - and I intend to watch Crawford's plays)....
Nick is NOT good at creating offense for others... Most of his turn overs occurred when he attempted to pass to a teammate. He had 90 TO's last year (a miniscule number for a starter with that many minutes), but a large number of them were when Nick tried to pass to a teammate and turned the ball over (35 instances). Now, some of those turn overs could have been avoided had the teammate come to the ball, caught the tough pass, etc.... but even so, I counted ALL of those against Nick. Other turn overs came when he dribbled too much, or when he set screens (he tends to jump into players on screens). Very few turn overs occurred on what you would consider "off the dribble" situations - Travelling, charging, steals, palming, etc... So in that sense, Nick is a good ball handler; for the limited amount of time he has the ball in his possession.
On the other hand, Nick is very good at creating offense for himself. A ton of Nick's Isolation plays were either end of the shot clock or end of quarter plays. Of the 179 isolation plays Nick was involved in, 87 of them were with less than 10 seconds on the shot clock, or at the end of a quarter. Clearly, in those instances, Nick was isolated to get a shot off.... (not to create a shot for someone else)... as the team usually cleared out and let Nick go to work one-on-one. Young hit a respectable 48.3% of his iso shots.
I also noticed that Nick was best when taking one or two dribbles - anything more was just asking for trouble; either a TO or a contested shot. That was one of Nick's shortcomings in previous years. The tendency to over dribble caused teammates to stand around, and allowed the defense to adjust; and gave Nick the deserved moniker of "ball stopper". The problem still exists today, BUT fortunately, someone has drilled into Nick exactly how he's supposed to play, and more importantly, how NOT to play. The plays where he over dribbled were very few and far between last year. So although he still gets into trouble over dribbling - it occurs much less frequently than years before. I only counted 32 plays (3%) where Nick dribbled excessively. Ten of those plays ended in Turn Overs (Traveling, Charging, steal, etc..), and 15 ended with a heavily contested shot. I excluded end of shot clock, end of quarter situations where Nick was isolated to get off a shot, since those were plays that required him to create something. I also excluded any drives where he went all the way to the rim.
Other than those two problems (bad passing, too much dribbling), Nick was remarkably sure handed with the basketball. He rarely gave the ball up off the dribble.. Almost never traveled and was rarely was so out of control to cause a charge. Part of that is the way the Wizards coaching staff has Nick playing on offense. He is either in constant motion, cutting around screens, OR drifting out to the corners or elbows beyond the 3-point line. Even on the fast break, he tends to fade to the corners, rather than cut to the rim. His offense is almost always dependent upon someone else creating room for him. 69% of Nicks shots were assisted. Compare that with McGee (54% assisted), Blatche (56% assisted) and Jordan Crawford (25% assisted) and you can see that more than anyone else, Nick relies on others to create offense for him.
Now let's compare way the Wizards used Jordan Crawford last year. More than 67% of Crawford's plays were either in Transition, Isolation or as the Pick-and-roll ball handler. Crawford was coming off screens, or spotting up only 22% of the time. And Crawford's isolation plays looked different than Nick's isolation plays. The Wizards usually cleared out for Nick, allowing him to take his man one-on-one to get a shot off - whereas iso's for Crawford had a lot more teammates moving, and more picks being set. Clearly, the Wizards wanted Crawford initiating offense; creating for himself and his teammates. The Wizards Coaching staff are maximizing Crawford's strengths (ability to create, floor vision, ability to get to the rim) and minimizing his weaknesses (25% spot up 3-point shooter - 0% off screens - - - that's right, ZERO PERCENT catch-and-shoot coming off screens).
To those who insist on pointing to the anemic assist numbers for Nick - let's remember what his role was on the team. His role was not to dominate the ball. He was not supposed to hold his dribble, survey the court, look for openings in the defense, create driving opportunities, which in turn create open shots for teammates - and then pass to them to take a shot. It was Nick's job to be continually moving without the ball. Running around screens. Setting up in the corners. His job was to get open and shoot. If he didn't get open, he didn't get the basketball. It's hard to get assists when you don't have the basketball - and when he DID get the basketball, it meant he was open and his Coach and teammates expected him to shoot. Clearly the Wizards coaching staff were maximizing Nick's strengths (46% spot up 3-point shooting - ability to catch-and-shoot off screens), and minimizing his weaknesses.
Here's to hoping the Wizards re-sign Nick Young and we see continued development of his efficient shooting in a FULL NBA season this year.
219 comments
|
19 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Rec'd
And Flip should utilize Nick in the post more, but i don’t think Flip is smart enough to use it lol. That turnaround jumper in the post is automatic.
Formerly know as
by DMVLeGenD on Jul 17, 2011 9:41 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
That could be a potent weapon
But I’m not sure if it can work. Nick’s poor court vision combined with our lack of perimeter shooting to spread the floor could result in a lot of turnovers and closely contested shots. Unfortunately, I think it’s a weapon we can only use occasionally as a change of pace.
by yop32 on Jul 18, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My definition of a black hole is someone who forces the issue too often and takes a lot of bad shots.
I dont think Nick does either.
JR Smith is a black hole and until Flip came, that was pretty much his career trajectory.
He is the perfect fit next to Wall because he isn’t the kind of guard who needs to dribble to get his game going. I think his most exciting development this past season was his ability to consistently knock down the three. If he comes back the same player but improves his defense from above average to good he become indispensable.
Wally's World
by forthepeople on Jul 18, 2011 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Nick's usage rate is basically the same under Flip as it was previously
and he still relies on making shots that other players shouldn’t take…so why is it always claimed that Flip “re-designed” his game etc?
Because
before flip came – Nick dribbled a lot…. needed the ball in his hands to score… didn’t use screens… and generally stopped the ball when it was passed to him… He used to try crazy spin moves in the lane… out of control drives… and essentially did a lot of one-on-one freelancing under Eddie Jordan.
Flip said in an interview that he wanted Nick to play more like Rip Hamilton…. and during the Summer of 2009 worked with Nick on coming off screens – something Nick had NEVER done – even in College. He was told to come off the screen, and if he was open – SHOOT… but if not, pass the ball back to the PG. (at that time Arenas).
This article explains the whole thing… just in case you forgot or something… But Saunders COMPLETELY CHANGED Nick’s game during the Summer of 2009
To get him ready for training camp, Saunders and his assistants have primarily worked with Young on moving without the ball in his hands, something he rarely had to do in former coach Eddie Jordan’s Princeton offense but something that is mandatory in Saunders’s half-court sets.
Nick said during Summer League that he didn’t feel like himself…
Young said he has tried to make 400 or 500 jump shots five days a week in the offseason before playing in pick-up games on the weekends, but his new job description as a shooting specialist has been a disorienting experience. He said he had never come off as many screens in his life as he did in last week’s game against the Cavaliers, joked about how tired he was after all that off-the-ball running, and said he’s been watching old tapes of Reggie Miller and Hamilton to prepare for this role.
So – YEAH – Saunders changed Nick’s game.
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
by Rook6980 on Jul 18, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
"completely changed" is too strong a description for me personally
at least on the offensive end. I think Flip getting Nick to buy in defensively is where the lion’s share of praise should go.
On offense, Nick still relies on semi-contested 16-23ft Js to make his living. He has an almost uncanny ability get separation and hit shots with defenders in his grill. Flip acknowledged about midway through the season that Nick makes shots he shouldnt take and that’s just his game. It’s not like Flip has him posting up, or taking it to the rack more, or distributing the ball more. He has him taking midrange Js (same as always) but with less dribbling.
Less dribbling.
Now you’re getting there. Keep going.
I think DCrez got it about right.
Less dribble, more screens. “Calmed down” rather than “Completely changed”.
by MR on Jul 18, 2011 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Screens – went from never to a lot.
P&R – went from never to a little bit.
Assisted jumpers – went from few to many.
Freestyling – went from always to almost never.
Quick decisions – went from rarely to almost always.
These are fundamental changes. I don’t see how anyone here can’t see them. Flip changed the nature of his game.
by jones-y on Jul 18, 2011 10:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Ok I'll play...
Screens – went from never to a lot.
P&R – went from never to a little bit.
Assisted jumpers – went from few to many.
Freestyling – went from always to almost never.
Quick decisions – went from rarely to almost always.
These are fundamental changes. I don’t see how anyone here can’t see them. Flip changed the nature of his game.
by jones-y on Jul 18, 2011 10:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Black hole is defined as "once the ball goes in it never comes back out"
There cannot be another definition. Anything else is not a “black hole”.
by MR on Jul 18, 2011 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions
The ball comes back out of Ray Allen’s event horizon a lot more than it does from NY’s
by obeast on Jul 18, 2011 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
So now were comparing NY to
all time 3 point leading and NBA champ Ray Allen. Gimme me, give him a break
PGPhenomenon brought it up. I'm just pointing out the assist stats.
Clearly Allen is the better player. The comparison is only “who is a black hole”.
It's like an isosceles and an acute triangle
I’m not comparing the two, I’m pointing out similarities, mainly because they play the same position. My point in bringing Ray Allen up, most of the time that he touches the ball he’s going to shoot. Perhaps less than Nick Young, but it’s hard to compare that aspect since they play on two different teams. With that said, you can’t just say just because a player shoots the ball when he gets it that he must be a black hole. If we don’t consider someone like Ray Allen a black hole, why should Nick be one. Both of them are SHOOTING GUARDS, you know the guards that typically SHOOT THE BALL!!! If Nick Young was a point guard and had the ball in his hand all the time, then yes he’s a black hole, but my point is there are players like Nick Young, Ray Allen, or even someone like Arron Afflalo or Anthony Morrow who are just asked to shoot the ball. They aren’t play makers they are shooters!!! Saying Nick Young is a black hole is like saying Dwight Howard is a bad 3 point shooter.
by ThePGPhenomenon on Jul 19, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Of the 128 players who logged 2000+ minutes last year only 13 had a lower assist %. Only one of those 13 was a guard (Jodie Meeks).
Nick Young is clearly a black hole. The question is “is he still valuable even though he is a black hole?” Personally I think the answer is yes. But let’s at least come to grips with his black-hole-ness.
by MR on Jul 18, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Semantics
“Black hole” implies selfishness to me, and I don’t think that fits here. Nick passes the ball, he just doesn’t get many assists. He makes a safe pass that the defense doesn’t even try to contest, out to a non-shooter waiting out on the perimeter.
During the Earl Borgans era
Nick often received the ball by the scorer’s table with under 10sec on the clock, not the ideal scenario for the extra pass.
It’s hard to trust your anecdotal evidence from memory when you get the guy’s name so drasticaly wrong.
Unless you’re joking.
by MR on Jul 18, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the misspell was on purpose
But the Earl Boykins era?…ie. the one season?
by HIBACHI GOLD on Jul 18, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Assisted Scores
are the big reason i don’t consider him a black hole. i look at a black hole as the guy you just give the ball and he’s doing his thing totally as a one on one guy – including routinely waving off teammates who might be posting up or coming to screen for him. Young’s scores are assisted so often that it shows that his scores are within the team framework more often then not.
by Staybon on Jul 18, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Good point
Ohhh my God.
Where is my FACE? I CANT FEEL MY FACE!!!
by returnofswagger on Jul 18, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
That IS a good point. Except
From UrbanDictionary.com:
Black Hole
A teammate in a pickup basketball game who won’t pass to save his life…The ball goes in and won’t come back out.
I agree that his assisted scores stats indicate that he is efficient, is a designated scorer, and plays within the offense (finally). But he’s still a black hole.
You may think that is a semantic distinction, but actually it goes deeper. Sure it’s all fine that he’s an efficient black hole at this point because the team has so few players that can score on their own. It’s awesome. But what happens when the team has more scorers? Will his black-hole-ism break the offense? As we all know, black-hole-ism is very contagious. Just food for thought.
As an extra credit question please name a current NBA guard who is more of a black hole than Young.
by MR on Jul 18, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The ball DOES come back out....
It just doesn’t register as an assist…
I’d be willing to bet that Nick passes the ball just as much as any other player on the team as a percentage of his touches….
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Fine...
Random game – I’m going to count the number of touches for each player… how many times they pass, and how many times they shoot….
I’ll post the results in a couple days.
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I can tell you who will lose...
Javale…
that is my guess
by DavidDunn on Jul 18, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I'd take that bet also
When Young gets the ball he rarely passes and most times it often marks the end of that possession, for better or worse.
Don’t get it confused though, I am fully aboard the Tamale bandwagon, but let’s be real with ourselves.
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
You lose....
I watched a random game. I watched the game from Jan 24th against New York – which was a typical Nick Young game. He shot 7-16 (44%) and was 2-5 from three (40%). He scored 22 points, had 1 rebound and 2 assists. Pretty standard for Nick last year.
Young touched the ball on the offensive end 53 times. He shot the ball or was fouled 18 times (34%) and passed the ball 32 times (60%).
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
by Rook6980 on Jul 18, 2011 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I will be sampling more games..
Just to make sure that one was not an anomaly… but so far, I’ve watched 2 more games, and they are all pretty much the same…
Interestingly, Jordan Crawford is almost opposite of Nick… Jordan shoots or gets fouled on 54% of this touches – while passing only 37% of the time.
Interesting that the supposed “black hole” passes the ball more frequently than the guy everyone thinks is such a great passer….
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Making sure you aren't speaking for other people
Because I know I was only talking about Nick Young. Not Young in comparison to everyone else, just Nick Young.
I based off of the 60 something games i may have watched last year and if the numbers say otherwise that’s one thing but it hardly looks like he passes the rock is all I’m saying. Never said it was a huge problem though.
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
I was at that game.
One of the lowpoints of the season. Truly a pathetic effort by the Wiz. As I recall it Nick Young was the only real offense we had. Amare walked all over us.
Anyway, your conclusion that a player that shoots or ties to shoot 1 out of every 3 times he even touches the ball…you know that’s a pretty bad average, right? Next time you watch a game do the same math for the opposing SG. Or any other player. I’d be curious.
by MR on Jul 19, 2011 7:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I did the same comparison
for every Wizards player for that game….
Nick Young had the lowest percentage of shots to touches (other than Wall and Shakur – both Point Guards) – of any other Wizard….
In a random game I watched from March – Crawford shot the ball 57% of his touches, and passed 27% of the time… almost exact opposite of Young..
Interesting, because people are calling Young a “black hole”, but my observations of the games, and detailed counting of touches, shots, etc.. show Crawford to be an unconscious chucker; while Young passes the ball twice as many times as he shoots…
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
For the record
I am totally not on board with comparing the two. Why not compare rookie year Nick Young to this year’s Crawford?
I understand why you are comparing the two, but proving Crawford is “selfish”(which I don’t think he is) doesn’t make Nick any more or less selfish. Crawford was at times the team’s only scoring option. When most of his PT came, Nick Young, and even Blatche were hurt and not on the court.
Plus, it was the guy’s first 50 or 60 games of his career, after he had been subject to riding the bench in ATL for a short stint. He was let out of a cage and probably felt like he had something to prove. Let him settle down, get some NBA coaching(like Nick) and then the comparison will be much more fair.
Ohhh my God.
Where is my FACE? I CANT FEEL MY FACE!!!
by returnofswagger on Jul 19, 2011 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow
Lots of apologies for Crawford’s shot jacking – but so little for Nick Young when he was a Rookie…
Even today – even after the FACTS show that Nick does pass the ball – and he passes more than just about every one else on the team – he’s still called a black hole… And Crawford is given a pass for his horrible shot selection, shot jacking, woeful efficiency, terrible defense and “me first” scoring attitude – because he sat the bench in Atlanta? And when he got to Washington , he went WILD? And that’s supposed to absolve him?
Black Hole
A teammate in a pickup basketball game who won’t pass to save his life…The ball goes in and won’t come back out.
Really – I’d understand and agree if people said Nick passes, but he just doesn’t get assists (TRUE)…
And I’d agree if they said – Nick is not a good passer, so therefore makes the safe pass – which very rarely leads to an assist (TRUE).
But instead – people look at his simple assist per game stats and make the completely FALSE statement that Nick Young doesn’t pass…. And incorrectly call him a “black hole” …
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
by Rook6980 on Jul 19, 2011 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I totally understand the facts you have put out there
Nick is doing what he’s supposed to do.
He is doing what coach wants.
He is helping, not hurting the team, even with his poor passing abilities.
I agree on all counts.
What I do not agree with is giving Flip Saunders so much credit for refining Nick’s game. But then labeling Crawford awful and selfish, before he has had any opportunity to receive a portion of the coaching that made Nick what he is. I feel like that is not unreasonable. What is not reasonable, is holding the players to the same standards after ONE season. Both players have things to prove going forward. Jordan, if he can refine. Nick, if he can maintain.
I can drop the ‘Black Hole’ tag for Nick. You have pretty clearly proven that is not the case. Whoever brought the subject up is obviously caught up on years past, not what Nick did, at a very solid rate last season.
Ohhh my God.
Where is my FACE? I CANT FEEL MY FACE!!!
by returnofswagger on Jul 20, 2011 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely agree on Crawford...
My only point on Crawford was to bring to front the fact to all the “Crawford lovers” that he was NOT such a great player last year. He played selfishly. He hardly ever passed. He played poor defense… and was a terribly inefficient shooter….
Having said all that, he certainly has all the physical tools (quickness, athleticism, foot speed, etc…) and the mental make up (clutch-ness, grit, heart, etc…) to become a good player – and Flip has certainly shown that he can “develop” players (see: Young, Wall, Booker, etc…)…
So YES – I agree that Crawford can, and probably will, benefit from Flip’s coaching over time.
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
definitely true. Nick has passed the ball a lot and in the flow of the offense
However, we didn’t have many players that could make shots right after they catch a basketball from Nick’s hands. Assists require that the guy on the receiving end of a pass after all.
This
Exactly!
His style is that of a black hole. When he gets the ball, he shoots the ball. When he shoots the ball, he probably scores the ball. What’s the issue?
Ohhh my God.
Where is my FACE? I CANT FEEL MY FACE!!!
by returnofswagger on Jul 18, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess I get that
Here’s the thing. Is it a positive when your SG is a distributor? Of course. But if your guy is not a strong passer, like Nick, then you hide the weakness. The issue lies in whether or not the weakness is hidden. If the team can do without it.
It’s like asking your PF to have a jump shot. Is it a positive if you have a big man that can stroke it? Of course. But if your PF can’t shoot, you don’t want him shooting it. I don’t think Nick is hurting the team, and I doubt his teammates even see him as a selfish player. As a matter of fact, I doubt they question his shot selection usually. That is the best comparison I can think of.
So I am fine with calling him a black hole.
Ohhh my God.
Where is my FACE? I CANT FEEL MY FACE!!!
by returnofswagger on Jul 18, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
He does what a 2 guard is supposed to do.
I don’t understand why people have a problem with that. If we let nick walk, and crawford takes his place at the starting 2, we are going to be in for another season of pain. Crawford just does not bring the defensive potential and perimeter threat level that young does at this point in his career.
If nick walks, how long is it going to take to groom another SG? Honestly, how many good ones are there left in the league outside of kobe/dwade. Ones that aren’t veterans on the decline or severely lacking anything resembling a defensive game.
Sign nick now when he’s entering his prime and be SET at shooting guard for the next 3-5 years.
Geting it done.
by Knowledge92 on Jul 17, 2011 10:19 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
for part of one season, he's done part of what a 2 guard is supposed to do
I agree that Young’s limitations (which include every aspect of his game except shooting and on-the-ball defense, where he’s only average) are manageable providing he proves to be a highly-efficient scorer for the next few years (not just a volume scorer). But those limitations do mean that if he’s anything but a highly-efficient scorer, he will be an absolute albatross — there is no hedging of bets here, as he can really only do one thing.
It’s possible he will be a very efficient scorer for the next few years, but I think we’re in danger of making a fairly large bet based on his apparent improvement in the first few months of last season. He scored less and less efficiently as the season wore on — I know one can make legit arguments for why that happened (injury, more defensive focus). But to flip it around, it also seems plausible that he was simply unusually hot for a few months.
Given how far away this team still is, I don’t see the payoff in taking a big gamble on him (presuming that he will command a contract significantly higher than his tender offer of $3.9m). So what if we’re in for another season of pain? We’re in for that anyway, and in fact, we should embrace it and shoot for one more high lottery pick (in what’s shaping up as a loaded lottery class). Good two-guards aren’t that hard to find — great, mvp-caliber two-guards, yes, but he’s not that.
It seems to me that many BF posters are treating the best-case scenario for Young and treating it as a certainty. God knows, I don’t have any special insight into how the rest of his career will go, but it seems to me that we’re downplaying the risk that he might not prove to be truly special as to efficient scoring down the road.
by Newjamarcus on Jul 18, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
every aspect of his game
Name me a Shooting Guard that defends, shoots a high percentage, shoots over 40% from three.. gets 4-5 assists… rebounds the basketball.. plays stellar help defense… and is NOT an All-Star.
Every shooting guard in the League has limitations. I’d rather have a shooting guard on my team that can shoot, and play defense… than one that can’t shoot or defend but can pass the ball and rebound a little….
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I'd also like a shooting guard who can shoot and play d
Rook, first, thanks for your article, which was very interesting and brought great data to bear. As I think I made fairly clear in my post, I would have no problem whatsoever with a 2-guard who we can confidently say is an elite shooter and a good defender, even if that’s all he can do.
Where I disagree with you, and many commenters, is in the confident assertion that Nick Young is an elite shooter and a good defender. As a defender, he’s average or maybe slightly better on the ball, and not very good off the ball. As a shooter, he may be elite, or he may have had a few hot months. The Wizards are nowhere near contention. I would rather let him go and pick up a proven guy - even for a couple million more- a year or two from now. IMHO, Young is simply not worth the risk.
by Newjamarcus on Jul 18, 2011 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A shooting guard is not supposed to just shoot and defend a tall perimeter player (ideally)
I also think we need to stop assuming that point guards must be pass first to pass fourth players.
I think we can call the two guards on a basketball team the lead guard (this is the point guard on most teams not named the Lakers or Heat), and the off guard (the shooting guard most of the time except on the Lakers or Heat). Lead guards call the shots, usually are initiating the offense by scoring the most of by putting the ball into other players’ hands who can continue to develop plays or by scoring. The lead guard would be the guard who holds the ball most of the time but yes, he should ideally be a good shooter and should be a good catch and shoot player too. The off guard is the guard on offense who either is the 2nd play initiator, or is a guy who can be a catch and shoot player.
On the Lakers and Heat, Kobe and Dwyane who are classified as 2 guards are the lead guards on their team, while Derek Fisher and Mike Bibby are off guards based on this way of thinking,
It's a team sport
Good teams usually have three players who can shoot the ball. Look at the stats on shooting % from 16-23 feet for teams around the league. The average for the entire league is 40%. On the Wiz, only Lewis and Young shot above 45%. Not surprisingly, the Wiz five-man unit with the highest +/- was Wall, Young, Lewis, Blatche and McGee.
Given the Wiz line-up, Young needs to shoot and play defense, not pass. This will be even more pronounced next season as Singleton, Booker and Vesely get time at the 3. Look for Nick to average 20 points a game with 1.5 assists. That would be a good thing.
Efficient scorer
I thought Nick did a great job last year. He improved on both ends of the floor. I know a lot of fans are pining for Crawford to be the starting SG but not me. Crawford is more of a combo guard, more suitable for a 6th man role. We put a lot of coaching into Young and now its time for it to pay off for us. I don’t want to be a farm team for the rest of the NBA.
by Bryan1976 on Jul 17, 2011 10:58 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 2 recs
People complain a lot about Nick, but there are a lot of teams that would LOVE to have the kid.
He makes a great backcourt mate for any good point guard. He can finish from anywhere on the floor, he’s athletic, and an adequate—IMO underrated—defender. He also has the ability to make things happen on his own. He doesn’t force the issue, and he doesn’t need to because the team has other playmakers.
What more can you ask from him?
and an adequate—IMO underrated—defender.
Yeah – I think that on a great defensive team like Chicago or Boston – his defensive talents would shine through much more… It’s only because he’s on a poor defensive team that his defense only looks “adequate” or “average” ….
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
NY is pretty much a homegrown pick that the organization has seen him develop in the course of time. He’s a definite keep for the organiztion for stability!
Furthermore what does the strategy call for in regards to NY making plays?! Iso? Pick and roll? Screens etc….
Excellent read, exactly the sort of post I come here because of
I usually think of Nick Young as a guy who could shoot and score, but mainly a ball hog. I think he’s very valuable as an off the ball scorer. There aren’t a lot of guards who can do that. There’s a bunch of guys who can attack and go to the basket, but not nearly as many off the ball players. I think that’s a very underrated quality, to be able to score and score efficiently at that, to have a defender having to chase you around all night, and also to not get in the way of the offense at all.
"You need to get real!"
I agree
Gordon and Mayo are two other young guards who I think are really really good but they are playmakers and need the ball to be good. I think Jordan (Crawford) of that molde as well.
Jordan and John could be great with either Mack or Nick playing off the ball. I think they’re not running an offensive halfcourt offense taking turs to make plays when they are on the court together. I don’t have statistical prove for that or anything but its what I remember from the eye-test last yr.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jul 18, 2011 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, that comment was a mess
What I’m saying is that a both Wall and Crawford are ’drible-drive lead guards who play best with an off-guard spotting up.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jul 18, 2011 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Finally a really well put together article with evidence of NY's value!!!!!!!
Yeahhh my Nick young supports are in full force. Note: I may be biased because I think Nick Young has Kobe potential (not his bball IQ thought).
If we let NY go we will regret it, because so far we have a very skilled PG in Jimmy Wall, and NY fits in perfectly along beside him. It would be a waste of time to search for another SG when we already have a very capable one. Jordan Crawford has a lot of heart and hes perfect as a combo guard off the bench he cant not match NY’s efficiency.
If Andray Blatche would play to his potential and JVM would smarten up and not put so much value on the highlight reel we would have a pretty dangerous team especially in a year or 2 ala Chicago. And especially if some of our rookies pan out.
love him but tell us how he does on D
I love nick young, but his rebounding numbers arent too hot either. you should take a look at him on D and report back
by WatchinJimmyWallL16 on Jul 18, 2011 1:08 AM EDT reply actions
He's absolutely fine on defense.
Held opposing guards to 10 PER for the entirety of the season.
Geting it done.
by Knowledge92 on Jul 18, 2011 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I have plans to look at Jordan Crawford's offense next...
but I’ll take your advice and look back at Nick’s defense as well… all those defensive plays are available on Synergy as well…
Thanks for the story idea.
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
malarky at its finest.
you cast off simple assist numbers then delve up hard to folow ridiculous super indept numbers that don’t tell me anymore than Nick Young is a collossal black hole.
I went back and looked at every meaningful sg Flip ever had in his offense and for some reason Nick Young’s black holeness is unparalleled at the sg posiion in Flips complete tenure as a head coach in the NBA.
Isiah Rider – 2.8 dimes a game
Doug West-1.7
Anthony Peeler-3.8
Wally Szczerbiak-3.8
Latrell Sprewell-3.5
Rip Hamilton-3.4
Randy Foye-3.3
Mike Miller-3.9
so unless there’s something in Nick makeup that makes his assist totals compared to everyone else who’s played sg in Flips offense so futile simply because it was Flip’s choice to not have him pass or because he’s not a good passer then he is officially the league’s worst passing sg one of the worst in NBA history.
OR it could be he’s selfish he shoots 15 times a game just about and shoots it only 44% which to me is only decent.
Now why does Flip allow everyone else who played sg not named Nick Young to pass the ball and get more dimes and then suddenly shift course and say Nick please don’t ever I mean hardly ever pass the ball.
I’m disgusted by Nick Young aversion to passing the ball and his immature attitude towards the game showing no leadership whatsoever.
He and wall will never work well together because Wall will use Young as a crutch to rely on too much in the halfcourt when its Wall who should have the ball and breaking people down off the dribble. Not Young coming off curls or Iso gunning from the wing.
Young isn’t this incapable 1 trick pony the suggestion of such is ridiculous. He just doesn’t wanna pass and has such low overall hoops IQ he doesn’t understand that drawing and simply kicking would actually help the team.
To me he is an ideal 6th man on a good team comes in gets hot jacks shots keeps teams in games as a starter I’m not certain but I’d bet has the lowest assist per game total of any NBA shooting guard in the league. that kills you.
considering the Wizards are 29th of 30 teams in the league in assists having a sg capable of distributing the ball might actually help you win games and coincidentally with Crawford not NY they did more of that at season’s end.
get NY outta here. Great spurt scoring ability but selfishness low hoop iq are killers and won’t work on a quality team as a fulltime starter getting big minutes and a huge chunk of shots.
by jazzy1 on Jul 18, 2011 1:54 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
LMAO
“I can’t do teh complicated maths or read teh long posts. ASSISTS ASSISTS ASSISTS.”
When did we, as washington bullets fans, ever demand this much from a player?
To me he is an ideal 6th man on a good team comes in gets hot jacks shots keeps teams in games as a starter I’m not certain but I’d bet has the lowest assist per game total of any NBA shooting guard in the league. that kills you.
How does a guy that averages 17.4 points a game with a .538 all around TS% to 1.4 TO a game “kill you”?
I’m disgusted by Nick Young aversion to passing the ball and his immature attitude towards the game showing no leadership whatsoever.
I didn’t see any immature attitude when nick was a far cry from cracking the starting rotation during training camp, and got 9th man minutes during the first 8 games. He worked, showed up, and knocked down shots. Lead by example.
He and wall will never work well together because Wall will use Young as a crutch to rely on too much in the halfcourt when its Wall who should have the ball and breaking people down off the dribble. Not Young coming off curls or Iso gunning from the wing.
What? A point guard doing what he’s fundamentally supposed to? passing the ball to the perimeter guy coming off a curl?
What has the nba come to.
get NY outta here. Great spurt scoring ability but selfishness low hoop iq are killers and won’t work on a quality team as a fulltime starter getting big minutes and a huge chunk of shots.
It’s just a little something, and i’m not one to be big on simple rating (i’m warming up to it), but according to it, NY was the 2nd best player on the team behind McGee.
Geting it done.
by Knowledge92 on Jul 18, 2011 3:32 AM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
LMAO at this homer stuff
I love the Wizards/Bullets been a fan since the 70’s I still have my replica 1978 Bullets title ring .
you say how does a 17.4ppg scorer who shoots it only 44 screw that true shooting percentage crap his true fg% is 44% and thats middling decent, how does he kill you he kills you getting 1 assist per game thats how the Wizards are next to last in the league in assists per game and thats with a top 5-6 assist guy in Wall on the team why because everyone else is a member of the blackhole community.
And to have your next best ball handler your shooting guard be averse to moving the ball to open teammates its clear that its a real issue.
Nick Young is basically JR Smith in 7 less minutes a game he gets 2.2 dimes a game more than twice what Young gets lol
If Young played a lesser role on the Wizards as a 6th man it would be okay his lack of passing. But you can;t have a sg burn 31 minutes of clock yet drop A single dime a game. and I don;t even call a guy droping 3-4 dimes a game a player maker I just call that moving the ball to open teammates. But to hear some tell it no one else is ever open when NY has the ball so basically its not is fault he gets few dimes its Flip’s fault because he does;t want Nick to pass the ball lol
as for Blatche I want him outta here as well another blackhole who shoots low percentages, takes bad shots, and generally has woefully low hoops iQ. so yeah I want him gone to with his pitiful defense.
Javale Mcgee I’m perfectly fine with. I like him and his game. Teams win with pieces to the puzzle like him.
The don’t with blackholes like NY.
lol at the idea that its not Young’s job to pass the ball. so its perfectly okay to hardly ever pass the ball be a good teammate and actually draw defense to you and get a teammate a better shot thats such a huge stretch for a shooting guard to do what the hell is wrong with Kobe Bryant, Dwade, um Jason Richardson lol eve he dimes it twice a game lol are they all just crazy.
as far as attitude I watched him affter losses and having good games give that goofy half smile like it was funny being sorta content with his performance in totaly agonizing losing situations. the Heat game after the worse loss I;ve seen in quite awhile the team joking away the victory with missed free throws coming from Young and Hinrich he smiles and laughs after the game as if its not really that big a deal.
I’m not totally down on NY I think he finally began to learn what a good shot was at times last season. He actually began to understand how to ride a hot hand and appeared to actually care about playing some defense not much just some.
But commiting big dollars to him would be a huge mistake. we won games without him simply because the ball was moving more Mcgee was scoring more on the low block offensively another development that occurs with no NY an actual 55% shooter getting more touches in the paint Mcgee getting a chance to develop without NY tying up the ball with those curls. and Iso guns.
I can’t just overlook all the things wrong on the tea because I;lm a fa or be an advocate for things I can clearly see are an issue if we don’t change anything how will the results on the team change Young and Blatche were developed under the tutelage of the old regime with jamison, Bulter, and Arenas and have developed all their bad habits jacking shots not passing, no defense or real concern for teammates not part of a big 3 except when they lose and are there to blame.
by jazzy1 on Jul 18, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Please explain the difference between JRich’s 1.8APG versus NY’s 1.2APG
.6 assists?
50% more assists?
Any other advanced math you need me to do?
by MR on Jul 18, 2011 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But you can;t have a sg burn 31 minutes of clock yet drop A single dime a game.
You’re wrong. It’s possible to win a championship with a SG who doesn’t pass the ball well. Obviously, it’s better for you SG to be a better passer, but it’s not inherently impossible to win a championship with a poor passing SG. Heck, Phil Jackson won eleven rings with poor passing PG’s.
You need two things to get away with a poor passing SG:
First, that SG can’t dominate the ball. Check.
Second, you need great passing from the rest of your team, especially your PG. Will John Wall be good enough? Dunno, but I wouldn’t count him out. Tentative check.
If we didn’t have Wall, I wouldn’t want to re-sign Nick. But we do have Wall, so Nick’s a good fit.
You don't understand the triangle
It’s a less PG driven attack. Both the Bulls and Lakers PGs have put up terrible numbers. Look at the drop off in Steve Blake’s stats from his time elsewhere. I don’t have a problem with the argument that you don’t need a great PG to win. That’s fine, but I think it’s a bit unfair to say they were poor passing PGs. It’d be the equivalent of saying a Quarterback in a run heavy offense was a bad passer.
by GJennings on Jul 18, 2011 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
SMH
you say how does a 17.4ppg scorer who shoots it only 44 screw that true shooting percentage crap his true fg% is 44% and thats middling decen
True Shooting is crap? True shooting takes in everything from 3pt attempts, free throws, and 2pt attempts. It accounts for the fact that 3 point makes are more valuable than a regular field goal, because they are. A .383 career percentage from 3 is amazing for a volume shooter.
He was shooting lights out when he got the full reigns as starting 2. He was putting up Ray Allen numbers is shooting efficiency. Defenses starting keying in on flips game-plan and Nick, and he still put up better numbers than 80% of 2 guards in the league.
he kills you getting 1 assist per game thats how the Wizards are next to last in the league in assists per game and thats with a top 5-6 assist guy in Wall on the team why because everyone else is a member of the blackhole community.
The wizards were next to last in the league in assists because flip saunders was making lineup changes and adjusting minutes up the wazoo. We made 2 MAJOR trades in the season that completely left a massive stamp on our roster twice. Flip had to throw out game plans he was using with arenas and had to introduce new ones with rashard lewis. He had to go back to the drawing board and figure out what to do with jordan crawford, and mo evans when kirch hinrich and armstrong left town.
It wasn’t because nick was bad at passing.
as far as attitude I watched him affter losses and having good games give that goofy half smile like it was funny being sorta content with his performance in totaly agonizing losing situations. the Heat game after the worse loss I;ve seen in quite awhile the team joking away the victory with missed free throws coming from Young and Hinrich he smiles and laughs after the game as if its not really that big a deal.
What the hell is this even supposed to mean? It’s a regular season game. Nobody is going to be 100% SERIOUS DEBBIE DOWNER for every game of an 82 game season. That’s not nicks style, of course he’s not going to act like a depressed sack of tears. Nobody wants to play with one. Nick youngs attitude comes from LISTENING to the coaching staff, and putting in the work to be a better player WHICH HARDLY ANYONE IN THE LEAGUE EVER DOES ANYMORE. So many superstars/allstars just “Show up” and try to get by on talent alone.
care about playing some defense not much just some.
I’m amazed at how many people are so stuck up with their own opinion that they can’t admit that nick young is a GREAT defensive player. Nick put up a positive simple rating on a horrendously bad defensive team and help opposing SG’s to 10 PER. That’s AMAZING when you factor in nick’s offensive game. How many great 2 way players are there in the league? i mean really.
we won games without him simply because the ball was moving more Mcgee was scoring more on the low block offensively another development that occurs with no NY an actual 55% shooter getting more touches in the paint Mcgee getting a chance to develop without NY tying up the ball with those curls. and Iso guns.
Lol if you think nick young is holding mcgee back. Mcgee has been holding mcgee back.
Crawford was taking the same amount of shots that young did at the end of the season. So tell me, how did that effect mcgee getting more touches?
And don’t say that it’s because crawford is a better playmaker than young. That’s a cop out. Anybody on the team could of got mcgee more touches, It’s not on nick young.
Young and Blatche were developed under the tutelage of the old regime with jamison, Bulter, and Arenas and have developed all their bad habits jacking shots not passing, no defense or real concern for teammates not part of a big 3 except when they lose and are there to blame.
What a rabid generalization. Young didn’t receive any development under eddie jordan or tapscott. Flip saunders HIMSELF turned him into what he is today. Blatche as bad as he can be, has still taken major strides in both seasons after jamisons departure with FLIP as the coach.
Actually we should all be bending over for flip for having to go through players like they are bad clothes at a department store, and STILL managing to develop guys that would be out of the league in 3 years on other bad teams.
Geting it done.
by Knowledge92 on Jul 18, 2011 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Did you watch any of the Wizard's games last year? Do you even watch basketball?
by tw10 on Jul 18, 2011 4:39 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
So tired of this argument
I hate when people disagree they try to pull “do you watch” card. It’s stupidest comment ever. Newsflash… anybody posting on a website for a lottery team who is willing to invest the time arguing probably watches the game. How many people are like “Hey, I’m going to randomly wander on to a Wizard’s board and argue about the team?”
Frankly, the comment is stupid. The people who recced the comment are dumber. Just because you like a player doesn’t mean you should rec stupid arguments,
Honestly, it’s getting a little silly that a guy who points out that Nick Young’s assist numbers are the lowest of any SG in Flip’s system get trashed for a reasonable contribution to the debate. I don’t agree with all of his argument, but I find it incredibly unlikely that he doesn’t watch the game.
by GJennings on Jul 19, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
he had a great attitude last season, and always really
remember at the end of Flip’s first season Nick was playing extremely well…then EG went and signed Kirk and the FO was saying publicly Nick would need to scrap for minutes at SF. So he put on weight, kicked everybody’s ass in practice, and waited for his chance. When it came he clearly outplayed Gil and Kirk, forced his way into a primary role on the team. That’s great stuff from a guy labelled as an un-serious, goof-off
You must throw up in your mouth
Everytime you see Blatche and JVM play. lol Or do you not hold them to the same standards?
I LOVE NY
he is the perfect fit for john wall, seriously
What more can we ask for from a 2 guard playing next to Wall?
Young is a very good off the ball scorer so that means Wall can have the ball in his hands and create offense, I think that’s what we want.
Young can play good defense, definitely the best perimeter defense in the team so I think that’s a check mark. Defense is always welcome.
He’s still like what 25? I don’t know I was lazy to look up his age but basically he is entering his PRIME, he can only get better or stay the same, so we know what we’re going to get when we sign him.
When’s the last time you heard NY get in trouble? I don’t even remember, was there any? Maybe I just missed some, but I know he isn’t Mcgee or Blatche.
He plays with passion, and it’s so obvious. He gives it all every night, isn’t that what we want? Someone who plays with heart?
Unstoppable
When he’s on, he’s on! I saw glimpses of “unstoppable-ness” in NY in those (few) games I watched last season.
Why should he get 3-4 Assists, when he’s asked to shoot the ball (which nobody on the Wizzies can do better than him)?
How should he get 4-5 Rebounds, when he’s either out on the perimeter guarding someone or shooting?
By all means, keep him and his ’fro!
I like the Bullets
Well done, Rook
My only fear is that Nick (and/or his agent) will read this and that will jack up his asking price.
I thought the same thing...but then I realized it would be
malpractice if they didn’t already do this….
I think it all depends on how much he costs next year
I don’t mind Nick as our 2-guard of the future, but i’d hate it if the wizards overpaid him based on his scoring prowess alone. While his low assist numbers were largely because of his role in the offense, the fact remains that he still can’t be asked to create for teammates, making the role he has the only one he can occupy. As far as versatility goes, he’s not exactly cream of the crop, especially in the modern game where sg’s are often asked to be initiators on offense. I realize that we don’t have much need for a creator at the 2 spot because we have a great pg in Wall, but regardless it would be a nice luxury to have. Ideally, I would like to see a Wall-Young-Crawford rotation, but if Nick’s asking price is in the $6-7 million territory or higher, I wouldn’t keep him. There are too many other sg’s that can be had for cheaper that can fill the same role.
by segrt12 on Jul 18, 2011 6:53 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Pass the crow please.
Before the start of this season I wrote that “Nick Young is garbage”. I wrote this because 1. He was an inconsistent scorer – which I attributed to inconsistent form on his jumper. 2. He seemed clueless on defense. 3. He was a shot chucker. 4. I didn’t think he had the mental toughness to play tough defense and fight through adversity when he or the team wasn’t playing well. and 5. Sort of related to number 4, but he smiled too much (Rook, if you could re-watch the entirety of NY’s season to see what percentage of plays he was smiling, that would be great. I think I might actually still be right on this point). Rook’s fine post reminds me that I need to write a good ol’ fashioned crow eating for all those who were defending NY last summer…and to Nick Young himself…and Mae Jude…and Ernie and Flip who, most certainly discussed my post ad nauseam, before deciding that they thought more highly of their player selection and player development skills than I did.
Nick Young is definitely not garbage. To say so would be total idiocy. In fact he’s a pretty decent starter in the NBA. I couldn’t have been more wrong. This past season he was an efficient and consistent scorer, a good NBA level defender, and he did it all while the team was losing games by the bucketful.
Thanks for proving me wrong Nick. Go Wizards!
by mogoman on Jul 18, 2011 7:39 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
great post
hopefully i’ll be writing a similar one about Vesely next year
real good stuff rook...thanks for putting this together...
I would just add three things…
Just to reiterate…I am not sure everyone here watched all of the games, so they may not be working from a full story. Some see to be working from memory as opposed to this season’s games. I also think some may believe this is contract year syndrome and we were just bitten by that.
Second, I think Nick’s final games while he was hurt were among his worse. I don’t have time to look them up, but I remember his last 4-5 games being some of his worst all season. Again, I think the recency effect is at play.
Finally. I am trying to figure out why so many people just poo poo a mutli 40 pt scorer. Is it really that easy to find?
I hope he is signed, and I hope you are right Rook.
Speaking for those of us who did watch all of the games last year...
I’m not sure that’s something to brag about
Ha! I watched them all this yr and I had a blast!
From Wall to Blatche they all entertained and dissapointed me at one point or another and the losing was tough as well as the alarm clock 4 short hours of sleep later hehe. I think next yr will be more of the same but its fun to see them play and how sweet will the taste of victory be when they do get good in a yr or two?
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jul 18, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Great article, very convincing
I really enjoyed this piece — thank you for making me feel better about the NY era in Washington.
I’m not entirely willing to give up on this “black hole” thing, though, although I won’t pretend that I’ve watched every possession of Young’s like Rook has. I agree that simple assist numbers aren’t very meaningful for a player with Young’s role, but I do find this a little disturbing:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8827
Basketball reference computed “% pass” numbers for NBA guards — that is the % of each player’s touches that ended in a pass rather than a shot / foul / TO. Nick Young passed 27.4% of the time, by FAR the lowest rate in the league for a guard.
For a point of comparison, Ray Allen (who I think is an ideal model for NY’s game) has a % pass of 50.4%. Kobe is 50%.
Again, I understand that his job is to finish possessions with jumpers, not set up his teammates, but at some point you have to start worrying that Young’s tendency to chuck it may cost the Wizards a better shot later in the clock (maybe even from Young…).
Constant ratio
For the purposes of determining the number of a player’s “touches,” that basketball-reference analysis uses a constant ratio of 0.17 assists per pass for all players. The same number for all players, from Rondo and JKidd to Nick Young? You can be sure that that is a very poor approximation when it comes to Nick Young. Nick’s ratio should be much, much lower.
My impression is that Nick is a willing passer, but his passing generates very few assists. He mostly makes a safe, unthreatening pass back out to an unguarded non-shooter (usually Wall) out on the perimeter. Nick doesn’t help our team with his passing, but he’s not a black hole who hurts his team by selfishly refusing to pass.
Nick’s role in the offense emphasizes his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses by only putting the ball in his hands for very brief periods of time. That keeps the ball in Wall’s hands as much as possible which increases the team’s overall assist numbers.
Sure, it would be nice if Nick were an elite passer, too, but then he’d be a superstar, and we wouldn’t have had the chance to draft him in the first place.
good point
I had thought that those numbers were generated by looking at actual possessions, not approximating from assists. I’d put much less stock in them now.
Great post
I really want to see the three pick and roll plays where Nick was the one rolling to the basket, too.
Follow me on twitter -
http://twitter.com/TheRealTPruitt
I give credit where credits due
Flip has done a good job at making Nick Young a better team player offensively. His first few years, he’s style of play was only conducive for coming off the bench, but now, he can truly still be effective while playing off the ball. To me that is an important trait to have as a starting SG, especially when you’re playing next to a dynamic play maker like Wall. I love Crawford’s game, but he is too similar to Wall. Young not only compliments Wall, but also Crawford, which is great in 3 guard rotation. To be honest there isn’t a better combination to put along with Wall. Given that all three work hard and stay here, we could be looking at one of the best guard rotations in the league for years to come, seriously!!!
by ThePGPhenomenon on Jul 18, 2011 9:31 AM EDT reply actions
Perspective is Important
Yes, Young’s assists numbers could be higher, and his rebounding numbers could certainly be higher, but as regards to resigning him it’s also important to look at what the team has. Jordan Crawford right now is the only other passable SG on the team. And before people start taking about Singleton playing the two, let’s be realistic. He can defend the two, sure, but won’t be playing any real minutes at the two on offense.
Nick is one of our better defenders right now (reserving judgement on the rookies) and without question a best outside shooter by a wide margin. I think he’s worth resigning especially considering there is almost nobody out there better than him in free agency. And the few that you could argue for, are close to the end of their careers. So I’d resign him if it’s not breaking the bank. Otherwise, let him walk and look to draft a 2 next year.
Fantastic article and great analysis.
My only qualm is that if any comparisons are made to Jordan Crawford, it has to be noted that JC was a rookie last year and younger than NY, so Nick Young has more experience and thus is held to higher expectations. While I think more analysis would be great, there are too many other variables that stop you from making final conclusions about the overall value of a player.
by 8vechkin on Jul 18, 2011 10:05 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
The only issue with this
Is that Nick’s passing issues is the very reason Flip carved out this highly specialized niche role for him.
by Mike Prada on Jul 18, 2011 10:19 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I think that element is really overlooked
Rook pointed it out, but people keep pointing to his low assist numbers. He does pass the ball, but when he passes, it often leads to turnovers. His assist numbers aren’t low because he’s a black hole, they’re low because he’s not a very good passer. Therefore, Flip puts him in a position to not have to pass a lot.
It also ties into his poor rebounding because he is asked to get back on D rather than crash the boards since he’s already out on the perimeter. What sense does it make to have our guy furthest from the basket crash the boards?
Nick’s assist and rebounding numbers are particularly low because of how we ask him to play, and we ask him to play that way because it plays to his strengths and hides his weaknesses. Asking him to focus more on rebounds and assists will make Nick a less efficient, turnover prone player.
I agree with you on the assists part but I don't think it would hurt to ask him to rebound more.
Just on the defensive glass, however. He has all the tools, I just think the staff needs to emphasize it to him and work on rebounding fundamentals. I don’t think it’s outrageous to ask for 3-4 rebs a night from Nick.
by jeffco01 on Jul 18, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
we're a terrible rebounding team, transition offense is JW, not NY leaking
and not all rebounds are within 5 feet of the basket. No reason he can’t get more defensive rebounds just by find the ball and using his athleticism to make plays.
JW doesn't need people to run with him?
Who does he pass to on the wing when the defense clogs the lane on the break?
sure he needs help
he doesn’t need certain players designated to NOT rebound so they can run. The fast break starts with a rebound. No ball no break. Nick basically runs to the corner anyway, not the rim. Makes him perfect for receiving passes on the secondary break.
I’ve never heard this theory before, that a player who rebounds the ball can’t be part of a break, or that a player on a break needs to be removed from rebounding to be successful. Sounds like a completely made up excuse for terrible rebounding numbers to me.
by Jheiser3 on Jul 19, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_fast_break
The strategy is also the same in reverse (the designated player has a responsibility to get back and defend the opposition’s break).
so lets run the numbers
2,033 minutes played
163 buckets in transition per Synergy
That’s 1 transition bucket for every 12.5 minutes he is on the floor. I think he could get more than one defensive rebound per 12.5 minutes and we’d be a better team for it.
it's not even 163 buckets, it's 163 plays
if you click on the 163 number they give you “3 for free.” I havent signed up so maybe it’s just a coincidence…but none of the 3 they give you involve Nick leaking out ahead of everybody else per the “fly fast break”
my recollection of the season (could be wrong)…..i doubt there were 5x all year that Nick left the shooter and was alone on the other end for an easy score. Nick attempted less than 2 buckets per game “at the rim” so if Flip was employing the fly fastbreak with Nick, it didnt work
So he's supposed to touch the ball every time he runs the break?
So he’s supposed to be ‘ahead of everybody else’ because of the application of the strategy. You and your conclusions…
In practical application, the only verifiable outcome of the strategy is that the designated player doesn’t hit the boards and thus doesn’t get rebounds. All you guys expected outcomes (that he should’ve scored more in transition, touched the ball more in transition, or scored more at the rim) are anecdotal in nature.
Good thing you guys know about the fly fast break now. Perhaps you’ll be on the lookout for its application when the NBA resumes.
you and your assumptions, i could say.
Nick’s poor rebounding is not because of some “fly fastbreak” strategy. It’s because he often just watches after shots go up. I love Nick too, but he has that tendency.
btw, Nick made 67 buckets in transition according to Synergy…and yet again, none of the 3 they give you for free involve him leaking out and receiving the pass per the fly fastbreak that you are claiming.
i’d sign up for synergy and watch some more…but I waste too much time already, that site would be the end of my productivity…
You can argue the reasons why, all you want
Bottom line; Nick is not a good rebounder. If Flip designs it so he doesn’t have to rebound then fine. But he is a bad rebounder.
Nick is not a good passer. He is a BAD passer. If Flip designs it so that he doesn’t have to distribute, then fine. Doesn’t change the fact that he is a poor passer.
What I see are people making excuses for his deficiencies. Which is not even the point of Rook’s post.
Ohhh my God.
Where is my FACE? I CANT FEEL MY FACE!!!
by returnofswagger on Jul 19, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't believe in excuses, thankyouverymuch.
If you wish to counter my argument, that tactic doesn’t work.
What exactly was your argument?
That Nick is a good rebounder, just isn’t asked to do so?
In one hand, you say Nick is asked to leak out, to be out ahead of the fastbreak on offense. And then you say, “All you guys expected outcomes (that he should’ve scored more in transition, touched the ball more in transition, or scored more at the rim) are anecdotal in nature.”, which I think is you saying, “Did you expect him to also be successful at leaking out on the fastbreak.” But I could be misinterpreting that.
It can’t go both ways can it? He’s rebounding numbers are very weak because is asked to run on the fast break, but his fast break numbers are weak too….
Ohhh my God.
Where is my FACE? I CANT FEEL MY FACE!!!
by returnofswagger on Jul 19, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
No, my argument is that Nick isn't asked to rebound.
And only that.
How often does he spot up on the wing in transition and not get the pass? Where is your counter argument to his transition defense assignment?
My point is just
That he is a weak rebounder. He is a weak passer. The same way we ask Javale Mcgee to not attempt certain things on the court.
For people to argue Nick doesn’t get assists or rebounds simply because he is not supposed to, is ignoring the fact that his coach found a way to cover up his very clear weaknesses.
Good for Nick, for being able to do this. As long as we know Flip doesn’t ask Nick to do certain things, because he is not capable of doing them effectively. Rather than the saying that on the weakest rebounding team ever, that Flip would rather his SG to just not rebound, we should accept that its because he’s bad at it.
Ohhh my God.
Where is my FACE? I CANT FEEL MY FACE!!!
by returnofswagger on Jul 19, 2011 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
and
when your team is a bad rebounding team nobody gets to NOT rebound by design.
by Jheiser3 on Jul 19, 2011 8:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
@jones-y: do you talk to Flip?
Not sure why we should just believe your assertion that Flip is telling Nick not worry about rebounds. Just because you say so? The team was killed on the glass all year and Flip bemoaned it all year….Flip is a sorry coach if he’s behind the scenes telling Nick not to rebound
Not disclaiming it.
When bball resumes, we’ll see.
Perhaps you cannot prove
that Flip told Nick not to worry about rebounds…. but anyone watching the games can certainly tell that Nick’s primary role (as the Shooting Guard) as soon as a shot was put up – he was supposed to sprint back on defense… He almost NEVER crashed the offensive boards, but rather immediately turned and ran back on defense.
When he was playing defense, (as the Shooting Guard), it was very apparent that his primary role was to get out on the break with John Wall…. What I really don’t understand about this is that although he frequently “broke out” on the fast break, he very rarely went to the basket, instead fading out to the 3-point line… Perhaps that was also by design.
Of course, the next post will be a long dissertation about how someone doesn’t agree – and then I’ll just have to go back to the Synergy site and prove it all over again….
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
After his man shoots the ball
Nick turns and watches. He makes no effort for the board, nor does he immediately sprint back every time. His duties are very similar to the rest of the league’s SGs….and they all rebound much better than he does.
And SGs on Flip’s previous teams all rebounded better than Nick does. He’s a poor rebounder and should work on it, hopefully he does.
by DCrez on Jul 20, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
instincts
I wonder if this is just more of Nick’s blindspot. He has excellent one on one instincts. He struggles to see the 5 on 5 game, defensive rotations are another example.
And maybe his leaking wasn’t by coach’s design, but was his instinct to go get his buckets??
asking him to rebound defensively will not make him turnover prone
or less efficient.
by Jheiser3 on Jul 19, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
come on Mike
this is such a cop out.
I don’t want Nick running the offense surely but he’s not incapable of actually looking at another player and passing the ball. to believe this is to believe Flip carved out a role for Nick that he hasn’t in any of his other 15 season’s in the league for his sg.
I refuse to believe he so drastically altered his approach of 15 years just so NY could never ever just simply look at another player and say here catch this pass.
I’m very weery of stat geeking the math enthusiast have applied to logic and conventional wisdom in nba ball nowdays theorems that say Thabo Sefolosha is more clutch that Kobe type stuff.
But a simple assist per game number is very very basic and can’t be misconstured simply by Coach game planning.
No coach plans for his sg to rarely pass the ball.
I just think NY is so one dimensional he can be upgraded on for overall effectiveness he averages less than 3 rpg doesn’t even get 1 steal per game and 1 assist per game.
so basically he does one thing and thats score 17 a game on a 44% clip. thats not good at all. thats 6th man type stuff not starting 2 uard 30+ minutes a night stuff on a winning team type thing.
give me crawford he gets you more boards, dimes, steals, all you gotta do is coach the rook up on shot selection if NY took years to finally find out what a good shot is then Crawford can find that in time as well and bring many other things to the table.
and Crawford is clutch. something NY never really was with the Wizards till he hit the game winner last season finally after many failures.
I honestly lost you here
What exactly is the issue here? Flip changed Nick’s game to maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses, some of which you brought up.
I tend to think Nick’s a long-term sixth man too, which is why I’m wary of overpaying him. For now, though, he is the best the team has.
by Mike Prada on Jul 18, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm fine with Nick Young.
People get caught up in numbers. When u actually watch Nick play, he rarely takes a bad shot and he moves without the ball well. Most of his shots come within the offense. I actually think he should be more aggressive. I’m not saying he has to shoot more, but attack more. Go to the basket, post more, and make plays when necessary. That way he’ll get more assists.
I’m more concerned with his rebounds and defense. I don’t think he hit the boards hard enough and even though he is a solid one-on-one defender he need to become a better team defender.
by Jr Mack on Jul 18, 2011 10:33 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I think his team D looks bad because few, if any, of our guys can play one-on-one D
which makes other guys have to help and makes the team D look sporadic at best
What's this hell I view?
Wizards are like the winter
Ice cold from outside
-wjb1492
by pwilson319 on Jul 18, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
we need nick young
i remember watching games this past season and noticing that nick young WAS our offense. midseason, john wall had a little confidence crisis with his jumper, so our offense pretty much evolved into isos for blatche or young, and i dont need to tell you how frustrating it was to see blatche take a bunch of long 2s….when he was on the bench, we couldnt buy a basket. his job is to score. period. hes a great off guard, especially with guards like wall, crawford, and mack doing the majority of the facilitation (kick outs). granted hes not the best passer, but his ability to make buckets (of the catch and shoot off a drive variety, or the 2 dribble pullup), wet 3s, and slash to the basket far outweigh the potential 3-4 assists per game he would get if he were a better passer IMO
the main thing is the dude has developed
Compared to most on this board, I’ve not been a fan of the wizards for very long, but even I remember thedays when he was a 2nd year player that Wiz fans screamed at to stop dribbling and chucking bad shots (Crawford anyone?). We longed for Nick to sit down, watch Rip Hamilton and become an efficient off-ball player. He listened to the coaching staff, worked his arse off and now that is exactly what he has become. If the guy has the ability to breakdown his game and rebuild it to make himself better, he’s definitely worth it.
Next year all depends upon cost, if he’ll settle for what we want, snap him up. If not, we need to seriously look at who else is available who has a 3pt shot before we let him walk.
Rook, great post. Thanks for watching over 1000 plays for our benefit. Perhaps if you’re really bored one day, if you could do similar for Ray Allen and then we could compare them?
by BballBrit on Jul 18, 2011 10:37 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Nick had a very efficient year last year in the games he played as you said
and I’m happy with him staying on the team. I would also hope that during this offseason, he picks up more skills offensively aside from just throwing an orange ball into a hoop because I prefer versatility at every position. Sure players are stronger at some skills than others, but well rounded games help players in all situations.
Needs more assists?????
Looking at Foye & Millers assist totals will tell you a lot.
Number one is that they had someone who could score playing with them.
NY isn’t called upon to assist because he’s the best scoring option on the floor.
BTW very good read Rook.
I think a lot of us forget this was just Nick's first year starting
And it wasn’t even until Gilbert was traded. Technically this coming year will be his first entering the season as a starter. I used to think a lot of Nick’s issues prior to last year were confidence related. We all saw Nick mature into a confident young player last year and I believe that confidence will grow even more with a full offseason knowing he’s a starter and a full training camp. I know ppl can get frustrated because he can be such a goofball and seem like he doesn’t care but thats just his personality. He seems like a real good dude and a great teammate. If i could chill with one dude for the night on the wiz it’d probably be Nick, he’s probably be hysterical to hang out with and you know he definitely has the best weed (JK,,, but not really).
Stats are for losers
I don’t like the direction basketball is going with these advanced stats. People are using these stats to argue that Lebron is better than Jordan, Dirk is better than Bird, Derrick Rose is overrated & Nick Young is a bad shooting guard. People need to start using the eyeball test & they will see that these stats mean diddly poo ©Jim Mora. Nick Young did great his 1st year as the starting SG. When did basketball fans turn into baseball stat nerds?
by Bryan1976 on Jul 18, 2011 12:34 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Stats are a big part of the game. The more points scored per minute, the better a team generally is on offense, etc.
However, I do agree with you that advanced stats sometimes are used too much to quantify how good a player is.
Why do people do this?
If you think some stats are misleading, then they’re misleading, but why paint them all with a broad brush and use the stat nerds crap?
This is essentially like saying “I don’t like the direction academia is going with all of these cross-references to other pieces of work. People need to start writing what they think instead of what other people think.”
by Mike Prada on Jul 18, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think there are good stats that can be used to compare players...
and then there are the stats that are just garbage….
It’s impossible to use an individual “simple” stat to make a definitive statement about a player:
Andray Blatche (16.7 points per game, 8.2 rebounds per game) is as good as Josh Smith (16.5 points per game, 8.5 rebounds per game)
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Yeah, just like anything else
You have to figure out what are the best stats and what aren’t, just like you have to determine when your eyes are playing tricks on you or when you’re looking for something because of some personal bias. It happens.
Also
While I probably won’t use the most artful language in explaining this, I think people ignore the impact of small sample sizes when reaching determinations. Smaller sample sizes make the data less reliable, since you have fewer points to reach a conclusion from.
For example, Nick Young ran say 28 post plays. With a sample size under 30, you’re looking at a lot more uncertainty in your conclusion. So even if the numbers were good, I’d be reluctant to say conclusively that Nick Young is a good post player. Looking at the tape, I might discover that 10 of those post players were against Earl Boykins.
I think people use stats differently which leads to 2 different paradigmas unsuccesfully trying to communicate with eachother
The interpretative paradigma views the data (Nicks play) and tries to value it by lookimg for meaningfull stats in the particular context of the data (assisted FG # in a by Flip designed curl-off-screens-role)
The deductive paradigma forms a thesis which can either be proved or not (a good shooting guard should record x number of assists) and puts the data to the test (Nick Young has low assists numbers so he must be a black hole).
I don’t think either approach is innately wrong, there is truth in both of them. However, people are essentially trying to communicate while speaking two different languages here.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jul 18, 2011 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
WOW...Do you think Atlanta would trade us Josh for Andray even up?
The Hawks fans (all 175 of them) complain about Josh’s inconsistency almost as much as we complain about Andray’s, well, everything…
I love NY
I think the knock on him is that he doesn’t have that killer instinct. He can be very streaky. But confidence comes with experience. If he could become a closer, we have a homegrown star to run next to John Wall. I hope we re-sign him.
by Unselds on Jul 18, 2011 1:07 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Great Article
I view Nick as a great role player. Not a great overall player, not a bad player, but a great role player.
He knocks down shots and defends. He doesn’t need to handle the ball to put up points, and he doesn’t kill team chemistry.
The only problem with him is consistency. He can’t seem to maintain his high level of play for very long. Some nights he’s on, others he is off. For a player that is consistently giving you rebounds or assists, this doesn’t seem so bad, but when all the player does is score, his bad shooting nights hurt more than others.
I don’t want to see Nick leave, but I don’t think we should pay him that much to keep him around. I think when you have a player like John Wall on the team now, you have a guy who can get the most out of other players. So you don’t need to get desperate to sign a guy like Nick at the moment, because you can definitely find other guys who can fill his void, and at a decent price.
by gray16 on Jul 18, 2011 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Nick's assists
First off, I think he is perfect for the 6th man role with Crawford maybe starting. Just a thought. Secondly, according to a Bill Simmons article I read around the end of the season, Nick didn’t get more than 3 assists after January. That is bad. But, you can’t totally blame him. Look at his options. Wall couldn’t shoot, so no assists there. Lewis didn’t shoot well at all this year. Blatche, he would get the ball, take 10 dribbles and force a shot. And the only ways to get assists to McGee are dunks. Throw in the fact stated above that most of his offense was catch and shoot, there was no way for him to rack up high assist numbers.
I go back and forth on Young
not sure where I stand at this point. I would tell people with minutes he’d be a 20 point scorer. And he’s shown he can be a good scorer. I like how he fits with Wall, but not sure if I’d be happy with the team committing to him being the starting 2 guard for the foreseeable future. part of me thinks we’ll always be left wanting more.
sorry but I dont buy any of this....
I’ll give you that nick young is solid player with improved man defense and improved offensive efficiency…however, I take a lot of issue with you chalking up his assists to his role on the team. To say that his lack of assists are due to his role is completely wrong…here’s why…
as you yourself stated in the past….flip saunders wanted to model him into a rip hamilton…rip hamilton has the same stated role as nick young, if anything, rip hamilton was asked to create EVEN LESS….all rip hamilton did was run around screens and shoot the ball….and EVEN STILL rip hamilton never averages under 3.4 assists a game in his championship season or his years with flip saunders….that alone proves the fallacy in your arguement…
thats not to say that nick young isnt a good player…just not what you make him to be…the truth is, nick young just lacks high basketball IQ, and he isnt aggressive enough on offense to drive and draw fouls to improve his efficiency and productivity…he is a fringe starter/6th man in my opinion at this point in his career…thats not to say he cant get better…but lets not ignore his deficiencies and chalk it up to his role
by jasonj on Jul 18, 2011 1:59 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
which often can be translated to bball IQ
a good passer is always said to have high bball IQ, have you ever seen anyone say a good passer has low basketball IQ???
by jasonj on Jul 18, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Jamario Moon.
That’s perhaps a good point. But its a fallacious way to make it. I’m sure if I dug deep enough, I could find a bad passer considered to have a high bball IQ.
At any rate, what about turnover rate? Smart players don’t turn it over right?
rec'd
And I’d actually got so far as to say he lacks both. We all know he doesn’t have the best court vision but then you see other things while watching the games that make you question his bball IQ:
-Does a lot of standing and watching at times
-Doesn’t crash the offensive boards for someone as athletic as he is and isn’t really involved in the defensive rebounding
-Catches the rock and holds rather than making instinctive plays (such as a quick pass back, or swing pass, or quick entry pass to the paint)
Before anyone jumps to conclusions about my opinion if Young Tamale, I am very high on him as a player and will be crushed if he isn’t playing for D.C in the future. Those ?s on his game still stand though
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
- stand and watch – who doesn’t? It’s the NBA. He runs off screens or sets up for threes or spaces the floor.
- doesn’t crash the boards – his responsibility is to run the break or defend the break.
- catches and holds – not anymore.
by jones-y on Jul 18, 2011 10:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah.... Catch and holds the ball is just wrong...
He may have done that under Eddie Jordan … as a matter of fact, he DID do that under Jordan… but He doesn’t any more.
I recently re-watched a game from January. Made note of every time Nick Young touched the basketball on the offensive end of the court. I noted whether he passed, shot, drew a foul, turned the ball over, or whatever.. I also noted the amount of time he had the ball in his possession.
In that game, Nick touched the ball on the offensive side of the court 53 times…. for a total of 1 minute 53 seconds…. An average of 2.1 seconds before he either shot, passed or otherwise did something with the basketball. -
Also – note that of the 53 times he touched the ball, he passed it to someone (usually John Wall) 32 times (60% of the time) and shot or drew a foul 18 times (34%)…
Hardly a “black hole”… and hardly “catching and holding” the ball….
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
hmmm
-Many players don’t stand and watch, and often times those are the players making huge impacts on games. D Wade immediately comes to mind. Instead of being passive on defense, he’s flying in and getting weak-side blocks or grabbing defensive boards. Also, how can you condone a player on the court watching the action???
-How do you know what his responsibility is? Did Flip say “his responsibility is to run the break or defend the break”? If so, how come Crawford was doing some different things when he manned the 2 spot last year?
-If you check the parenthesis, I was referring mainly to the aspect of the pass. I like how he catches the ball to make a move or score but I can’t remember him catching and making another instinctual pass rather than passing when he can’t get his shot off
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
by qthaballa on Jul 19, 2011 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
- Dwayne wade is your comparison? What do you say about all the set shooters in the league?
- it’s obvious because he’s always out on the break or getting back to defend the break.
- I don’t either. And that’s a fair point. But there’s no more catch and hold.
by jones-y on Jul 19, 2011 8:37 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Unanswered?
how come Crawford was doing some different things when he manned the 2 spot last year?
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
by qthaballa on Jul 20, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Like getting a tripple double for instance?
(thats 10 or more assists, 10 or more rebounds as well)
Ohhh my God.
Where is my FACE? I CANT FEEL MY FACE!!!
by returnofswagger on Jul 20, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Jordan Crawford can't come off screens.
He has no set shot. It should be obvious why he was doing different things. Because he can’t do the same things…
His triple double came with both wall and young out. Generally speaking, he was playing on instinct last year as a rookie who had all of two months under the system. It’s a bad comparison, that’s why I didn’t answer it the firs time.
I take it you have no further responses on the other points.
by jones-y on Jul 20, 2011 9:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
@ jasonj
That is a good comparison of Rip and NY; however Rip played on a championship caliber team with Rasheed Wallace a scorer, Chauncey a scoring PG and Prince also a scorer. They had a good defensive and offensive system. The Wizards are some garbage right now.
good point but moot point....
agreed that wizards suck but that isnt an excuse for how bad he is at passing….for instance…doesnt it bother anyone else that andray blatche, who we all consider to be somewhat of another black hole on offense, averaged nearly double the assists of nick young? makes no sense
also
my point in comparing to the pistons is that that team under flip saunders ran the sameeee system we are running….and i think its incorrect to state that nick young’s atrocious passing has anything to do with role…especially when its stated that his role is to emulate that of rip hamilton
Three options
Rip has three options when he receives the ball coming around a screen:
1. If he’s open, he shoots.
2. If the shot is tightly contested by one defender, he passes out and resets.
3. If both his defender and his screener’s defender are tightly contesting his shot, he dishes to his screener who likely has an open path to the basket.
Nick can only perform options 1 and 2 right now. That makes him an efficient role player.
If he can add option 3, he can get three or four assists per game and be a multiple All Star.
It took several years for Rip to get proficient with option 3. (Remember, Rip played the same role for three years at UConn.) Nick has only been playing this way for a couple of years now. Nick’s next contract will be based on the fact that he is already an efficient role player, but it will also be based on his potential to further expand his game, even at the ripe old age of 25. Learning to recognize when a teammate is open, the ability to read the game, is the sort of development that can occur even in older players.
I havent read any of the comments yet but DAYUM!! Rook, this post is amazingly awesome...
When I first started reading this blog, this kinda posts is exactly what wowed me, drew me back for more and finally made me wanne sign up and be a part of it.
I’m making a compliment for Rook in particular but its also a compliment to every single member. You guys are all extreemly informed and knowledgable. We don’t always agree around here and get into arguments even but I think Mike & co do a great job managing that as well as the self policing among the members.
This is the best blog community out there! Hats off to everyone!
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jul 18, 2011 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
Yeah that's what drew me in too.
That and the civility in comparison to the other blog I frequented before this one. Kudos to all!
That is why I love Bullets Forever
we can talk about pretty much anything and not get totally crazy about it. Yes, there are some things here that any one of us can get into a “Chad Dukes” tirade, and I’ve had mine, but this is one of the healthiest SB Nation communities for sure.
If you look past the stats and just remember last year
The few games that we won when sushi on, were way offset by all the games we lost when. It seemed like Nick was the only option, the other teams had figured out his fade and He was missing long shots that were like the perfect outlet pass for the other teams break. Yes Nick can and does dial in and streak shoots us a win, but if you think for a minute a streak shooter is going to win a lot of games from long range….it probably won’t happen.
What does He have when the other 6’7 sg take away the fall away? He’s sorta slow by NBA standards and being a poor passer to boot is not good for a break. The break was way better with JC involved because He’s fast and can pass to Wall for the finish or beat Jimmy down and pass back. I mean at the end of the season the chemestry in a few short weeks was better than sushi/Jimmy all season long. I got the feeling that Wall was relieved to have a player at his level of speed and creativity with JC and finally felt that He had a teammate who had his back.
by Janber on Jul 18, 2011 7:10 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I recall a few times where Wall wanted the ball and JCraw waived him off.
as crawford gains in confidence i could see some friction there, JC is a fully capable PG and clearly wants the ball in critical junctures. Not necessarily a bad problem to have, but Nick fits more naturally into the “Wall is our franchise” scenario as he’s basically going to shoot or give it back to Wall
I have faith in Wall
He played with DeMarcus Cousins and lived. Harry Potter couldn’t have done better.
not a problem
if Crawford isn’t even on the floor. He was handed extensive PT because of injuries and the season being a free for all.
the hometown discount
will be for LA. Given how well he played there, I think there’s quite a siren song to play out there.
and it's not like Ernie showed a bunch of faith in him.
Not saying Ernie should have…..but Nick played well to end Flip’s first year then was immediately demoted when Kirk was signed, before Hinrich ever set foot in DC. The Wizards were done with Nick, but circumstances last year resulted in him getting an opportunity which he took advantage of. But I doubt he feels all warm and fuzzy inside towards Ernie and Flip
After the first two weeks of the season
Nick had a grand total of six games with less than 27 minutes. Hinrich and Arenas were both still here when the minutes increase happened.
Alternate theory: Nick earned his coach’s trust over the first eight games of the season, and was then rewarded for his performance.
What does ernie have to do with any of this?
he didnt play 27mins until 3 weeks into the season
averaged 22 minutes in November, not sure what you are looking at. Kirk and Gil were playing 35+ during that time. Nick didnt play 30 minutes once until Wall went out with the foot injury
Okay you got me.
Two and a half weeks.
http://www.nba.com/home/playerfile/nick_young/game_by_game_stats.html
I count 2 games before Nov17 of 27mins or more
and both of those were after Wall was hurt. In the 8 games before Wall went out, Nick was averaging 14mins/night. IMHO, that is very telling as to what they thought of him.
His minutes didn't go down afterwards.
That’s my point.
If we pay NY more than 6th man money then we are making a huge mistake.
If we pay NY so much that we can’t afford to pay a starting SG then we are making a huge mistake.
by MR on Jul 18, 2011 10:00 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I love me some young Nicholas
but on some level I think he deserves more money than we should pay him…not sure if that makes sense.
On the other hand, can we really draft a SG then wait for that guy to develop? There is a fine line between being a rebuilding team and just being a sorry team…if we create another roster hole by letting Young walk we risk drifting the wrong way imo.
Don't forget
Free agency. You can always take that money that you would’ve spent on Nick and get a better player, or a more bang for your buck deal. Aaron Afflalo is a good example of that right now. It’s not like Nick is a go to player, he’s a role player. Overspending can also be the difference between being a mediocre team and a good team, history should show us that.
I'd be shocked if Nick got more money than Afflalo
by Mike Prada on Jul 19, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Affalo is also getting better hype
Rated the no. 1 SG prospect on CNN/Si, reputation as a lockdown defender.
The best thing that can happen for the Wizards team is that Affallo stays on the market for a while, keeping the price on Nick down.
Afflalo is not much better than Young. That's a lateral move, for all intents and purposes.
There’s no one on the 2011 FA SG list (besides Afflalo) that I’d prefer over young.
Afflalo is a primary wing defender
that can be put on the other team’s best player. Nick is not that guy. He’s better than he used to be, still not that guy.
by Jheiser3 on Jul 19, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
we've covered stats, how about intangibles?
there is no intangible that nick young brings to this team. having a guy starting on your team who plays 1 on 5 will never be a positive. i don’t think a guy as limited as nick young can be the perfect fit as a starter on any team.
i agree with MR wholeheartedly. nick young should be paid like a guy who comes off the bench and scores in spurts.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Jul 19, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's a good thing he doesnt play 1 on 5 anymore.
It’s also a good thing he wears out opposing SGs with the screen running. Perhaps that’s why he does so well against the superstar SGs…
by jones-y on Jul 20, 2011 8:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The grass is always greener...A Bird in the hand is worth two in the bush
Top 10 SGs under 25
1. Eric Gordon
2. Monta Ellis
3. Tyreke Evans
4. DeMar DeRozan
5. James Harden
6. Wes Matthews
7. Dorell Wright – Might be more of a small forward but does play SG
8. Wilson Chandler – Same thing as Dorell Wright
9. Marcus Thornton
10. OJ Mayo
I see Nick scratching at the top 5 of this list right now.
Of these guys I think only Gordon, Harden, Matthews, Wright, and Thornton are a good fit next to Wall. I could see an argument for the first 3 being an upgrade over Young. Gordon and Harden scored less on similar shooting %s with less than one more assist per game.
Wally's World
i disagree with where you slot nick, but that's not the question
the question is which of those guys do you throw money at? maybe the first 3 guys.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Jul 19, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
gordon, ellis, evans, id go after harden in a heartbeat, matthews is decent…
bring back darvin ham
by jeffbenson on Jul 19, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think Monta and Evans are a good fit with Wall
They both need the ball a lot to be effective. Whoever plays next to Wall has to be able to hit the 3 at a minimum. It will cost us more down the line to add any of these guys for a nominal upgrade and then it will take seasons to develop chemistry.
If we use a draft pick we are either hoping we get lucky and a guy develops or we are using a very high pick. We already got lucky using a late pick on NIck and having him develop.
Wally's World
by forthepeople on Jul 19, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
handled nicely by the Nick Young might have to go folks or maybe he's just a 6th man types.
Nick Young is what he is as a player. a streak shooting gunning Iso type player. I have no problem with that in the right role. As a starter its crippling to team chemistry and why the team functions better with him gone. Its clear void of stats just from the eye test that crawford and JWall played better together. They had chemistry Wall doesn’t play caged with JCraw alongside. He can actually run the wing sometimes and be the recipient of plays in the offense. As opposed to always being the lead creator it takes pressure off him and he flourished as did the team.
Young I think was playing for a paycheck it happens on bad teams its contract season and NY had to prove his worth. He did as a gunner.
I’m not sold that JCraw is starting material either on a good team. But if I had to choose who I’d rather have starting it’d clearly be the better fitting Jcraw.
I think we’re in the ideal position to let NY walk we have his replacement on the roster won’t have to tie up real money on what in a year or so could be a bad untradeable NY contract.
as far as I’m concerned we need to add alot of pieces to a contender type puzzle I only see 2 players that could be real players on a title type team and thats Wall and Mcgee they bring specialized talents that you see on teams that win. Everyone else to me is interchangable. So we need to start building around them with parts that you see fit on the contending teams. Can Singleton be that lockdown wing defender good teams have. is a real question what role is Vesely gonna have. Everyone else is a take it or leave it situation.
All the stats in the world....
dont point to the fact that NY does not make plays for anybody other than himself. He is incapable of making plays. Good 1 on 1 player, good shooter, not a playmaker. Black Hole? I agree to an extent. He is still a good young player though.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
NBA Playoffs Content Module
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- David West hilariously denies each and every one of his young fans a high-five (VIDEO)
- Behind the Box Score, where the Miami Heat are moving on to the conference finals
- Kevin Durant is tired of hearing about the Spurs
- The 10-man rotation, starring your Indiana Pacers
- Blake Griffin highlights, ‘NBA Jam’-style (VIDEO)
