Washington and Cleveland in trade talks to swap picks?
According to source, a scenario is being discussed where Cleveland trades #4 to Washington for #6 and #18.
The Wizards would then draft Kanter.
11 months ago
Rook6980
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Rumors will come hot and heavy now....
With only two days before the draft, look for lots of these kind of rumors… But this one looks very interesting…
This has GOT to be something to do with the Valanciunas buy out situation. Perhaps Cleveland believes they can still get their guy (Valanciunas) at #6, and pick up another first round pick….
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Kanter worked out twice with the Cavs and they still dont want him. Why?
My guess: he’s a full time PF and a spot C which is perfect for us but reverse of what Cavs want.
And that's what I don't get.
He’s an upgrade over Hickson IMO, and perfectly capable of playing hext to him.
apparently it doesnt appear so in his workouts.
Clearly the Cavs have looked carefully at him and dont see the upgrade or the Center right? This trade means they are 110% sold on Jonas over Kanter…..which is kinda worrisome
I think the Cavs desperately want Valanciunas....
and see an opportunity to draft him at #6 AND pick up another 1st round pick….. I don’t think they’ve ever had Kanter above Valanciunas on their board….
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
but why???
i mean, there must be SOMETHING about kanter that strikes them as a no-go right? He said in interviews he wants to be a face-up PF….so that could be it as they want a C
That's their evaluation.
And they’re entitled to it. I don’t see a need for us to react or place more merit into their scouting staff’s opinion, their current roster makeup, their goals, etc.
In other words, I don’t think we should care why they value JV more than EK. I think we should worry about how we value those players, and do what makes sense to us, not what makes sense to Cleveland.
by jones-y on Jun 21, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah - that's it....
Cleveland’s inept front office bought into the fake internet rumor of Kanter’s bad knees….
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I get that feeling too.
And there’s danger in taking cues from someone else’s scouting staff.
they've had him in their gym twice though
whereas we only got the phony Grover workout
They may not think so AND/OR
They may value quantity or quality.
Finally, they could be working out Kanter to generate trade interest.
Or the rumor is false.
We don’t know.
by DavidDunn on Jun 21, 2011 12:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think it is more likely that Utah will trade with the Wizards
Brandon Knight will most likely be available at #6 if Kanter goes to the Wizards at 3. It all depends if Utah wants the #18.
I highly doubt Knight will fall past the Raptors.
He is their dream guy, most likely behind Irving.
Skins rule
by Horcasitas4 on Jun 21, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
DO IT!
Kanter, here we come…
This is perfect. One less draftee and thus more roster flexibility, the best center prospect in the draft, and we don’t give up any assets!!!
Git’r’dun EG
Happy but
would it still be possible to move back into the first round?
by believe_the_curse on Jun 21, 2011 10:16 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
$3m is the max you can pay I believe.
Perhaps we package our 34 plus the cash to move back into the late first round. If there’s a guy there we want, of course…
Yeah - there may actually be several to purchase...
Minnesota – depending on what they do with the #2 pick – will probably sell their #20 pick…
$3 Million is the maximum a team can pay for a pick… and of course, Washington and Minnesota have done business before…. So I’d think the Wiz would be first in line if the pick were for sale.
There may even be a few teams willing to swap a late first round pick for Washington’s #34 – Second round picks are not guaranteed any money… and contracts can be as few as 2 years long; whereas First round picks are guaranteed Rookie Scale, and contracts are at least 3-years.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
If we buy Minnesota’s pick, then this trade essentially becomes Valanciunas + 3 million for Kanter, which in my opinion is a steal for the Wizards.
by Emmet O'Neal on Jun 21, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Seems a little stiff
I have a hard time not imagining a better trade with the Jazz for the #3.
Yeah and chances are that Utah passes on Kanter.
If the player we want is available at 4, then there’s no good reason to move up any further and potentially lose more or better assets.
my thinking
if Utah actually likes Kanter they are going to draft him and won’t trade with us unless they didnt actually want him in the 1st place
The worst case
is when we trade with Cavs and then Jazz select Kanter with the 3rd pick and then we left selecting a player we want which can be available to us at#6 and also losing 18th pick too…so I would rather stay put..
Obviously....
The trade would happen on Draft night and be contingent on Kanter being available at #4…. I don’t think Ernie’s that stupid to make the trade early (again!)…
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Yeah that's the only fly in the ointment
Perhaps they view Kanter as BPA at 4 and would take him for that reason, regardless of whether or not they want him? In that scenario, trading back two spots makes sense.
GMs are seeing ZaZa2.0 in him is my guess
He’s 6’11" 260 pounds and skilled but doesnt appear to be highly sought after? The “Joe Klein” comment one GM made at the combine resonates with some clubs. And there’s a reason for it.
but personally I like the idea of drafting a banging Big with ZaZa as his floor….it’s just what we need and at 19, he could certainly end up far better obviously
Agree...
Cleveland is undoubtedly more comfortable with a Lithuanian center that a Turkish one, based on the long time experience with Z and possibly some concerns with Kanter’s knee. The fact that Kanter seems to prefer playing with Wall in DC also may have something to do with this, certainly so from the Wizards’ perspective.
I am holding to my prediction that the Wizards will come away from Draft Night 2011 with Kanter and Nolan Smith, and if both players prove out it will be a pretty decent outcome for what people seem to think is a meh draft class.
Yeah - me either....
but like I said – lots of rumors will be flying between now and Thursday – and by then, even rumors from “trusted” sources will turn out to be completely wrong….
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Maybe somebody read me proposing the idea yesterday...
lol wouldn’t that be funny.
Some small backup
In Givony’s new mock draft on yahoo (sorry, on phone so no link) he mentions the Wizards are interested in trading #18 for a prospect or a pick next year, so we don’t seem wedded to it.
I did find out that it's Joe Kotoch
Apparently he’s a Cleveland based “sports agent”… and he operates the website, probasketballdraft.com
Not that it makes him any more or less credible……
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I like it too
but if Singleton isn’t there I’m less excited. He’s projected to go at 12 with the Jazz
I suggested 6 and 34
knowing 18 would have to be thrown in.
I would do it once they got to 4 and Kanter was stil there AND we knew we could buy another pick in the first round.
No please.
If Cleveland wants Valanciunis, then they’ll take him at #4. Fine, we don’t want him and his contract troubles anyway. That just leaves the Raptors, who supposedly want Vesely. We’d likely be giving up the #18 pick for nothing. And there’s going to be some decent guys available at #18 (really not much worse than the guys available at #4).
Well that's why you wait until Cleveland is on the clock (or until we are) before you make the trade.
But I think its worth it to guarantee you get the player you’re targeting (much like moving up for Seraphin and Booker was last year), rather than leave it to chance.
It still makes no sense
Cleveland would be trading down because they don’t want Kanter, so it just comes down to Toronto. Why not talk to Toronto and see if they’d take Kanter and swap picks with the Wizards for their guy (they’d do it because they get to pay a lower salary — that way we still essentially have the same level of assurance, and give up nothing). If Toronto says no, then you’d have to believe Kanter is meaningfully better than the alternatives to make this move, which I don’t. In fact, I’d rather have Leonard.
Cleveland could still take Kanter and keep him
if they consider him the BPA, regardless of whether they ‘want’ him or see him as the best fit or not…
Toronto possibly taking him is another concern all together. Same for Utah at 3… I’m on board with doing what’s reasonable to get him (as opposed to just hoping he falls into our lap at 6). Giving up the 18 is reasonable IMO. But then again, that’s because he’s the only player in the draft I covet.
exactly
there is kanter, jonas, and biyombo in no particular order. all of whom we can use. the problem is, the closer we get to the actual draft, the closer we get to ernie getting involved in our draft lol
expect your fears to be realized
by les boulez bomber on Jun 21, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Where the strength of the draft is from 15 to 35, I'm not thrilled with trading 18
I am o.k. with picking Kanter at 6, unless Valanciunas is available. If Valanciunas is available at 6, I would rather stay at 6 and pick him.
But this is consistent with Grunfeld’s M.O. When he wants someone, he is aggressive in getting him. He did it last year for Booker, for example.
The reason to reach for Kanter is that he could be a perfect fit with Blatche and McGee. The problem with that is that by picking Kanter, the Wizards are doubling down on Blatche and McGee, which might not be the smartest bet.
Not really
Kanter makes Blatche (and to a lesser extent McGee) less important overall to the team.
Actually
the Wizards are doubling down on Blatche and McGee, which might not be the smartest bet.
I think that’s just the opposite… By drafting Kanter, I believe Blatche’s days will be numbered….
The Wizards are obviously very high on McGee – and he does have tremendous potential if he can ever learn how to play basketball. He showed flashes at the end of last year that he can certainly be a game changer, WITHOUT the dribbling exhibitions and silly 18 foot falling away hook shots.
Kanter perfectly fits next to McGee – just as Biyombo would fit perfectly next to a guy like Love in Minnesota.
McGee’s help defense, blocked shots and uber-athleticism mesh precisely with Kanter’s more fundamentally sound positional defense, low post scoring and tremendous rebounding. One brings skills and abilities that the other doesn’t have. Together, the Wizards have defense, low post offense, shot blocking and rebounding along their front line.
Start Blatche this year, let him put up his usual 18 points, and 7 rebounds - then at this year’s trade deadline, trade him to a team that needs a big man that can score….
Pick up a potential All-Star Small Forward in next year’s draft – and the Wizards core will be intact.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
by Rook6980 on Jun 21, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree on all points.
All I ask is for them to get value for Blatche. If you can’t then its better to keep him (assuming he makes the necessary improvements attitude- and effort-wise).
Where is the evidence of this fundamentally
Sound defense. I know it was discussed over the last 6 months, but is the speculation after seeing the stoneridge video. Or has more video surfaced?
by DavidDunn on Jun 21, 2011 12:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
As discussed ad nauseum
I’ve seen Kanter play in Europe…. and as far as I know there is NO video “evidence”….
It’s obvious that you have reservations about Kanter’s defense – especially because the only “evidence” you’ve seen was 4 games in High School… and I understand that - you are absolutely entitled to your opinion….
It’s my opinion that Kanter will be at least a decent low post defender in the NBA – a sentiment that is shared by the few in the BF community that have actually seen Kanter play in Europe (and not just the 4 games in HS and the Nike game)…. To my knowledge, everyone (Dutch Hoopfan being one) that has seen Kanter play in Europe has the same opinion as to his potential defensive abilities. See this excellent post by Dutch Hoopfan… There are not a lot of us… only those who either live in Europe, or paid for access (or otherwise was able to obtain access) have ever seen him play.
So I get it…. You haven’t SEEN it with your own eyes…. There are no “experts” that have SEEN it with their own eyes… so you doubt.
We’ll see who’s opinion about Kanter is right after a couple years… I believe he’ll be a rebounding beast, and a low post scoring machine… while playing decent low post defense -
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I think he'll do well against the guys that McGee struggles against
and vise versa. But I’ll readily admit that this is mostly a feeling based on his playing style, body type, reports of his high motor, and the little bit of footage I’ve seen.
Going off the four HS games, I wouldn’t draft him in the lottery. The motor that scouts speak about certainly wasn’t on display in that footage. So while you can’t dismiss it, you can’t put too much stock into it either.
He played a total of 31mins in the Euroleague.
I expect him to be absolutely schooled by nba players and get in foul trouble a lot as a rookie, the defensive learning curve will be much steeper than the offensive one IMHO
I don't have an opinion one way or the other
I was wondering if there was some new information because of your declarative statement. The last time this came up you mentioned you had reservations, so I thought you had new info. Sounds like you have been able to dismiss your reservations.
No - I didn't dismiss them...
The video of the games at Stone Ridge were disconcerting (to say the least)… Kanter simply didn’t look like the same player to me… He looked lethargic.. lazy… and uninterested.. Not involved.
What I saw in Europe was a kid that was high energy… his motor never stopped… He looked like he could run and jump forever without getting tired. He sprinted back on defense. He had a very good court sense on defense… positioning.. help… rotations… etc… He was very physical.. Other big men could NOT move him in the post. He was tenacious on the defensive boards.
Kanter poured in 48 points and grabbed 24 rebounds in a game for Stone Ridge – He averaged something like 25 points and 16 rebounds in his one year at Stone Ridge.
I know that I saw an interview with his Stone Ridge Coach that said Kanter was the best player in a tournament in Vegas:
“We just played four games out in Vegas and he probably averaged 34, 35 [points] and about 19, 20 rebounds. He’s amazing. He shoots the three. He’s got NBA range. He’s strong. He will finish around the rim and just knows how to play.”
And then there’s this quote from his former High School Coach Derryck “Tank” Thornton:
“Put it like this, I’m not going to mention the team we were playing, he one time took two players with him, dunked it,” Thornton said. “The guy he dunked on came down court this weekend and said, ‘Man, coach. Where did you get him? This isn’t really fair.’ I’ve been playing basketball a long time and I’ve never had someone say that.”
I don’t want to speculate – but I will anyway… Perhaps he was still not acclimated to the new surroundings, new language, new country… Maybe he was fighting through a minor injury (bad back, strained knee, hip flexor) – Maybe DX was given video only of his 4 worst games…
All I know is that the video that DraftExpress had of Kanter in the Stone Ridge games just did NOT look like the same player I saw in Europe… And I cannot understand how you can grab 20+ rebounds if you’re as lazy and uninterested as I saw in those DX videos.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
It WAS just high school
Remember that infamous ESPN page 2 article ripping LeBron’s poor defensive effort in a nationally televised high school game and implying that he was a marginal prospect? Not saying it isn’t a black mark for Kanter (all the moreso due to his lack of tape), but I bet you could find similar video for a bunch of guys.
Apparently, Rook and Dutch Hoopfan have seen way more video of Kanter than any of the big name draft scouts/reporters.
Which is nice, except then you have to question their knack for scouting.
Dutch is just a poster on the board, no idea if he’s any good.
Rook does a good job with the big school NCAA players, but I question his ability to account for the competition level when it comes to Euros, small schools, or high school or U18 competition.
Fair enough....
I’ve not been watching European games with an eye towards “scouting” or evaluating… I really started watching because of Ricky Rubio (who I think will be a Super Star in the NBA)…. and saw Kanter in one of the Tournaments that was live streamed on the Internet. He was 16 at the time…. so I guess that would have been 2007 ?…. It might have been the Schweitzer tournament, I don’t remember now… But in that Tournament, I watched 5 or 6 games. He absolutely dominated on the boards, and consistently scored inside, averaging something like 18 points and 16 rebounds. And this was against mostly 18 year old players. (something the announcers kept repeating over and over again, every time he scored or rebounded the basketball)…
After that, I continued to watch him play in various European tournaments – at the European U18 Championships – and eventually on the Turkish Professional team Fenerbache Ulker. By the way, Feneerbache is a very high level European team, competing in one of the most competitive Leagues in Europe and in the EuroLeague; perhaps a step below Panathinaikos, CSKA Moscow and some of the Spanish teams (Real Madrid, Regal FC Barca, etc…) As an aside – Emir Preldzic, currently plays PG for Fenerbache – The Wizards hold his draft rights – so I still occasionally watch Fenerbache games…. They recently won the Turkish Title – and are always very strong in EuroLeague play.
Although is minutes in the Turkish Professional League were limited, when he did play (against grown men – VERY LARGE grown men) – he showed the same low post skills, rebounding and defensive awareness and fundamentals that he did in junior play- and I remember thinking at the time that his Coach was an imbecile for not playing him more because he always made an impact when he entered the game.
So, you’re right – I was not really “scouting” or “evaluating” Kanter at the time – I was just watching basketball… And of course, I don’t pretend to be any kind of expert…. nor do I think my opinions are any more valid or insightful than the real experts like David Aldridge (who I really respect), Chris Ford (ditto) or Jonathan Givony (the excellent mind behind DraftExpress)….
So take what I have to say with a very large grain of salt.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I can see that sentiment.
I just personally think Kanter is absolutely the right pick for us. Biyombo wouldn’t be a bad consolation though. But no to the JV’s and anyone else projected to be available at 6.
I don’t like this idea, fwiw, rather just take Biyombo at 6 and use the 18 on a contributor.
There’s a continuum here, though. How about compared to the more likely scenario of them taking Vesely or Leonard at 6? Or Valancuinas for that matter?
There is a legit chance Biyombo is available at 18...this guy is all over the place lately from 5 to 20
Raptors have a 1-on-none workout with him today I believe.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 21, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not a fan of the thought of giving away draft picks
That seems to be Grunfeld’s favorite thing to do, but definitely don’t like the idea of giving away draft pics just to trade up two spots. We have so many holes to fill, not to mention finding depth, it does not make sense to me to give picks away for a known unknown.There’s a pretty good chance that Kanter may be available at #6,but if not there are still many other holes to fill. I really hope that Grandfeld is not gettting tunnell vision and focusing only on one particular individual in this draft. We definitely need to come away with as many talented individuals out of this draft as possible.
by TheRealBigMike on Jun 21, 2011 12:00 PM EDT reply actions
I don't think this would be a good move
We would be giving up 2 first round picks to only move up 2 slots when Enes will probably still be available at 6. Or worst case scenario we draft Kawhi.
Editor at Baltimore Beatdown - SB Nation Baltimore Ravens Blog
Get er done EG!
For those of you saying it would be a bad trade, I disagree. We need a game-changer from this draft. Not just and average role-player. And plus, we could just buy another 1st rounder.
by iNFaMOUS SwaGG on Jun 21, 2011 12:45 PM EDT reply actions
This would be a bad trade
Kanter may just fall to the 6th spot. And if he doesn’t I think whoever else we could get at 6 and at 18th in this draft would be of greater value than Kanter.
Still not sure why people here are so high on Kanter. In today’s NBA, you don’t need an around the basket, physical offensive player. Few of the tops teams have one. What you do need is a good, tough defensive big man. Kanter may or may not project to eventually be a ‘solid’ position defender, but Biyombo looks to be, at his worst, a solid position defender who can also block shots. I still say Biyombo and the best wing defender we can get at 18. Or if in workouts we like him even more, Tristan Thompson instead of Biyombo.
what is the #18 worth to the wizards?
I really don’t think this draft is deep enough that any pick at #18 is going to be worth the contract the Wizards would have to sign.
I would be more open to this deal if we got the Cavs #4 pick and one of their second round picks.
Unless we think Kanter will fall to number 6, I think the trade makes sense, because nothing at 18 is going to have value to match the cost of that contract. Lets just get one solid guy and pick up a few projects in the second round.
I think there will be plenty at 18 to match the value
Mainly because after the top two, this draft is fairly deep with second and third tier guys. You could get someone at 18 that for your team would have been the best fit even if you were drafting at 12.
I think this draft has 4 tiers. 2 guys in the top one. 10 or so guys in the second. another 10 or so in the third, and the rest.
They may fit that tier
But those guys in the second or third tier don’t justify the 2-3 million dollar contract we’d be signing. Any other year, a lot of these guys would fall to late first round/early second.
by Cap Town Cat on Jun 21, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course, with the new CBA - this will probably change...
And by change, I mean go DOWN…
But the 18th pick will start at the Rookie Scale of $1.2 Million dollars.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
yeah..
I got the cost of the 18th contract wrong. Thought it was 2.1.
Either way my logic is this; The talent disparity between someone we would pick at #18 and someone we could pick in the second round is minimal. So trade away the #18 pick and save ~500k.
You could then turn around and use that 500k to buy the contract of a younger player who is more proven and maybe more talented than a lot of guys in this draft.
Weirdly, trading away #18 might make it easier for us to rebuild.
by Cap Town Cat on Jun 21, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Vucevic could be there at 18
And some scouts see him and Kanter as nearly equal. There will still be some interesting prospects left at #18. The difference between 4 and 18 isn’t that big this year.
Sounds like the Cavs aren't the only ones getting the call from us
Draft Express:
Also being discussed for Utah: Trading #3 to Washington for #6+18. Then take whoever’s left between Walker or Knight at 6. Kanter would go 3
http://twitter.com/#!/DraftExpress/status/83232591901245440
The Utah Trade would be wise to pull the Trigger on that trade before the Draft … Knowing Kahn he might pick Bishack lol !!! landing us Dwill
Owning the #3 pick would make a swap with the Timberwolves possible
if they’re not in love with Derrick Williams, it would probably just cost cash.
Blatche is only gonna
take Kanter out to the club, and then attempt to sucker punch him while he is distracted by Pierre and Young Money “making it rain” in the VIP section.
Kanter Kanter Kanter!
GET HIM!!! Perfect fit with McGee and only for the 18th.
Kirck Hinrich in exchange for Jordan Crawford and Enes Kanter
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