On JaVale McGee For Derrick Williams
by Mike Prada on Jun 10, 2011 2:30 PM EDT
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PrintI'm beating a bit of a dead horse here, since the rumor Chad Ford floated about Minnesota potentially being "intrigued" by swapping their No. 2 pick straight up for JaVale McGee is a couple days old. It's a rumor that may or may not have basis in reality, so let's not think anything is anywhere close to imminent. Bullet Nation in Exile also provided his thoughts on the subject here.
But I've been thinking about this for a while over the past two days, since I think the ramifications of this deal actually being on the table (if it is, of course) are pretty immense. After a couple days of thinking about it, I've decided that I would be in favor of straight up swapping JaVale McGee for Derrick Williams. Any other incarnation of the deal, and I'd reject it, because this draft is too weak and the Wizards' existing parts are too important. But if it's just McGee for Williams, straight up, then I'm doing it.
I'm doing it for a few reasons. First of all, I really think many of you are selling Williams short, which is weird to me. I'm reading a lot of stuff about how he's a tweenter with little upside and all that such, and my thought there is, really?
Let's snuff this tweenter stuff out first. There's an argument out there that Williams doesn't have the size to be a power forward. Here are the facts about his measurements:
Wingspan: 7'1.5.'' Guys with shorter wingspan at the combine include Joakim Noah, Nick Collison, Al Horford, Ed Ed Davis, Chris Kaman, Kevin Love and Blake Griffin.
Stand and reach: 9 feet flat. Guys shorter than that: Horford, DeJuan Blair, Tyrus Thomas, Davis, Ekpe Udoh, Noah, Love, Griffin.
No-step vertical reach: 11'5''. Guys shorter than that: LaMarcus Aldridge, Griffin, Greg Monroe.
Bench-press reps: 19. The only key PFs to exceed that are Griffin, Emeka Okafor and Horford.
Williams is a bit short, I guess, but to steal an old adage, you don't play basketball from your head to your toes. In every key measurement for a power forward, he's right there. There is no doubt that he has the size to play power forward if he wants in this league.
Offensively, he's pretty awesome in so many different ways. Sports Illustrated's Luke Winn broke this down beautifully, using Synergy to show that Williams is a tremendously versatile offensive talent. He was the nation's most efficient major-conference forward in spot-up jumpers and as the roll man in pick and rolls. He was third in isolation situations. He was fourth in straight post-ups, drawing fouls on a staggering 37 percent of his opportunities. He's great at many of the skills NBA 3s perform (spot-up shooting, isolations) and great at many of the skills NBA 4s perform (low-post scoring, pick and roll, pick and pop). Combine that with his measurements, and he can play either forward position well offensively. Or, to put it another way since we're projecting, there's less reason Williams can't do it than anyone in this draft.
The slight knocks on Williams are that his defense is so-so and his comments at the combine saying he wanted to play small forward were odd. I wouldn't read too much into the latter. Keep in mind that the top three teams in this draft (and by extension, the top four picks) are set at power forward, at least relative to their other needs. Williams was trying to ensure he was still a desirable candidate to go that high.
The defense thing is a little trickier. David Locke, the wonderful play-by-play man for the Utah Jazz, posted this video of him not giving great effort and not hustling back on defense at times during the NCAA Tournament. It's true - Williams took a lot of plays off. But Locke also shows that Williams is capable of being great on defense when he wants to be. My caveats there are twofold. First, not giving it all every possession is a relatively common problem with young players, as we see here with Enes Kanter. It's definitely correctable. Second, Williams carried such a huge load offensively for Arizona, one he won't have to carry in the pros. I suspect he'll have more energy to engage himself defensively when he makes the NBA. Maybe he's not Kevin Garnett, but the comparisons to Antawn Jamison on defense are ridiculous.
Williams is number one on our site draft board, and with good reason. I think he's the best prospect in the draft, and I think he's a better prospect than Harrison Barnes, Jared Sullinger or Perry Jones, to be honest. Why he's suddenly being criticized is very odd to me.
So that's Williams. The next question is whether he's worth McGee. This season was an interesting one for JaVale, one where he made improvements, but took a weird route to get there. Many key numbers went up. His rebounding, especially his defensive rebounding, improved. His shooting efficiency improved. His foul rate when down. His defensive instincts, while still extremely raw, made some strides.
Is there much more of a ceiling for JaVale? That's a tougher one. He'll definitely improve, and of the three holdovers from the previous regime (McGee, Young, Blatche), he clearly is the most valuable. But a couple things make me think that his "limitless ceiling" isn't really there. First, and most importantly, JaVale was channeled into being a role player this year. His shooting efficiency went way up, but his usage went way down to just 16.3 percent. This year showed promise that he could play his role effectively, but the sacrifice is that he's playing a role. I think we can safely say he's not going to be a "future star."
The other thing is his coachability. McGee certainly wants to be a good NBA player, working hard on his game and body. But does he want to be the kind of player the Wizards need him to be? I think that's a serious open question. I really didn't like hearing McGee sound off about his lack of post touches at the end of the year. Right or wrong, that's not something that should be said, especially because part of the reason McGee became a more effective player this year was because his share of the offense was reduced. The dribbling exhibitions, too, are troubling. Maybe they lessened over the course of the year, but the fact that it's taking this long is ridiculous.
One of the feathers in McGee's cap to some is that his shot-blocking is extremely valuable. My answer to that is: maybe, but not yet. McGee has yet to have a single year where his presence on the floor dramatically impacted the Wizards' defensive performance (2.4 points worse in 2010, 4.2 points worse in 2009), and that's with some bad players backing him up. This year was the first year where he even got above being a net negative defensively, and the difference was just 0.25 points/100 possessions. McGee was a net positive overall, but not because of his defense. Is he making strides towards being a force? Sure. Is he there yet? Despite the block numbers, no he's not. So he's further behind than some people think.
Also, there's an argument that a decent center is more valuable than an all-star wing, because there aren't many good centers in this league. A couple things on that one. First, as noted above, Williams isn't really a wing. Second, while I acknowledge that centers are expensive, I think we're seeing a sea change in their importance. The final four teams in the NBA Playoffs started centers with limited offensive games. Of the final eight teams, only two (Los Angeles and Atlanta) had centers who were primary offensive options (and for Atlanta, it's debatable). In fact, only two three of the 16 teams remaining in the playoffs (San Antonio, Orlando, Atlanta) had centers that were top-five picks and still with their original team. The means for acquiring centers in 2011 are much different and easier than the means for acquiring centers five, 10, 15 years ago. They're still expensive, but they're not quite as scarce.
That leaves us to the final point, which I think is the most interesting. McGee will be a restricted free agent after next season, which isn't hugely significant on its own. The labor issues make it impossible to project his specific price tag, and at a certain point, every team has to pay their guys. But given the state of the rest of the team, it does become extremely significant.
Here's why. The Wizards right now are caught between two philosophies. They could rebuild, or they could Rebuild with a capital "R." The difference ultimately rests with the futures of Blatche, Young and McGee. All three are holdovers from the previous regime, even if they are young. When John Wall was drafted, all three were within two years of their existing contracts running out. Management needed to decide whether they belonged in the future plans of the team. If yes, they were going to collectively soak up much of the Wizards' cap flexibility and make this a quicker rebuild. If no, this thing would take longer.
So far, the Wizards have re-signed Blatche. In the next two years, they have key decisions to make on Young and McGee. If they follow the first "rebuild" strategy, they keep all three and hope they develop. That's one strategy.
Here's the alternative, though: what about completely starting over? That's what Oklahoma City ultimately did when it drafted Kevin Durant, and now, the team that went to the Western Conference Finals has absolutely no resemblance to the team prior to Durant. There's one holdover: Nick Collison. Everyone else is gone, even though that team prior to Durant had some interesting parts. The Thunder talked about a "culture change," and truly walked it.
For the Wizards, this Williams-for-McGee offer, if there, is their chance to truly replicate the Thunder. Now, granted, if the Wizards do that, they must then trade Blatche for anything (even an Arenas-like return) and rethink the role of Young in their future. You can't deal McGee, who has the most upside of all the Holdover Three, and then keep the other two. But once that happens, suddenly, the Wizards will have picks No. 2, 6, 18 and 34, plus cap flexibility, to join the young core they already have. There may be short-term pain, but the long-term reward of changing the culture is really enticing.
Frankly, I thought the rebuild with a capital "R" is what many of us wanted when Ted Leonsis took over. If the chance to accelerate that and bring in the best prospect in the 2011 NBA Draft is there, I think it has to be taken, no matter how much short-term pain ensues.
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How different can it ever be with the same guy picking the players?
Personally I think you make the trade if you believe Williams is that special, but not for the sake of change itself….we’ll end up with other guys playing the current roles as long as EG stays. Vesely can be Mcgee, Perry Jones is Blatche, etc etc
This is an entirely different situation
This is the first time Ernie’s been asked to truly rebuild this team. He did a great job with the original quick-rebuild, getting Arenas/Jamison/Butler. He made a critical mistake in 2008 resigning Arenas and Jamison (not that there were many options, we were trapped in no-man’s land), and that worked out as poorly as it possibly could.
We can only judge him as to what he’s done since finger guns and the start of this rebuilding phase. So far, I’d say the returns are good. The first Hinrich trade was fine, the second was great, the Booker pick was strong, and the Arenas/Rashard trade was difficult but ultimately hugely beneficial. I think Ernie has shown the ability to adapt to this situation and if he has Leonsis’s trust is the best guy to run this.
Arenas's last contract was a huge error . . .
Blatche’s contract isn’t.
Even in a worst case the team won’t get stuck paying him max money for not playing. In 3 more years he starts to sniff something approaching starting PF money for an NBA veteran — for most of the contract though he’s seeing the kind of money that you’d expect to see from a borderline NBA starter/7th man on a .500 or better team. He could still live up to that potential.
Right now it looks like the Wizards may have slightly overpaid, but the contract isn’t ridiculous. If the Wizards just wanted to move the contract, I don’t think they’d have any problem. The main reason that they haven’t made a move this season seems to be because they: 1. think he still might justify the contract; 2. they want to ensure that they get back some value if they move him (beyond clearing cap space).
by Vegas010 on Jun 10, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
i am waiting for the axe to come down on him and Flip.
if they trade McGee they need to trade Blatche too. Just embrace the total rebuild.
they can keep Young, but not necessary.
Yeah, that's where I'm at too
The worst thing they could do is deal McGee and then parade Blatche out there for much longer.
Why?
I don’t understand why these three have to be inextricably linked. I’d actually argue the exact opposite.
It’s tough for one guy to be much of an impediment to the culture a team unless he’s the star. It’s actually a bigger issue when the guy next to Blatche is clowning around like McGee has and/or is being generally ditzy like Young. For each questionable element you remove, you further limit the potential negative impact of the remaining guys. Rodman, Rasheed, Big Baby, Randolph, Artest, etc, etc, etc, have all gotten sufficiently in line when they’ve been on a team with an overall positive culture.
"Be patient or be a Heat fan" - MR
I agree on Blatche but it is less than the worse thing to me because Williams can take his minutes. And I think you will see a harder working AB. And soon he will have some trade value bec he is not in the spotlight as much. Still wont get much for him. But this reply might be much ado about nothing depending on your timeline urgency. I am ok waiting a year and see what happens, not much more than that if things do not change DRAMATICALLY!
I disagree on Nick though. He has done what they asked him to do, quietly and without protest. I am still ok trading him for a talent upgrade. But I dont put him in the same trouble category as the front court duo. Collison stayed with OKC as you pointed out.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Flip First, Please...
This team goes NOWHERE as long as we’ve got a head coach who only gives lip service to defense. Unless they hire a defensive minded asssistant, I can’t see how we get better there.
THAT part of the team’s culture needs to change first.
AverageBro.com - @AverageBro
by averagebro on Jun 10, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I hear ya, 'bro
Minnesota fan here. I lived through the Flip Suanders years in Minnesota, and although he is highly regarded by many fans in Minnesota, I didn’t like him because of being unable to coach basic fundamental stuff, like drawing a foul when you have your man in the air.
His teams in Minnesota were jump shooting teams that avoided contact at all costs. They were soft. I was glad to see him go, but since he’s been gone, the TWolves haven’t sniffed the playoffs, not even close.
So, while calling for the coaches head is a familiar theme from town to town, it takes more than just a new coach to be successful. It starts at the top, and going from arguably the worst GM in NBA history, Kevin McHale, to one that may be even worse in Kahn, makes it that much more difficult to succeed. Good luck next season, if there is one.
I Love Larry David
Timeline:
95-6 to 02-03: Saunders takes over hapless franchise in KG’s rookie year. Wolves become perennial first round loser in playoffs.
03-04: Flip coached the Wolves team that went to the Western Conference Finals.
04-05: Saunders has the Wolves at .500 when McHale fires him and steps in with the usual “lost the locker room” reasons. A year after the playoff run, the Wolves fail to make the playoffs.
05-06, 06-07: Wolves miss playoffs with KG.
Summer 07: KG dealt to Boston.
There were 2 1/2 years between Flip leaving and KG being dealt.
by feral on Jun 11, 2011 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
and as for Defense...
.Those Flip Saunders Minnesota teams were pretty good defensively – of course, Flip had KG – and some other pretty good defenders…..
AND That is precisely my point about Flip and defense… Give him some players that buy into playing defense, and he CAN coach defense.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
you mean give him a top50 all-time PF who is also arguably
top10 all-time defender and he can put together a good defense?
well yeah... coaches dont play the game.
what differentiates the great defensive coaches more than x’s and o’s is how hard they get their players to play defense. having a great defensive scheme certainly helps but having great defensive players who buy in helps more.
Wolves fans would be as likely to criticize his jump shooting, risk-averse offense as his lack of focus on defense.
If you want a coach who fixates on things like the assist-to-turnover ratios of his point guards, Flip Saunders is your guy. Drawing fouls, on the other hand, is not exactly at the top of his list. John Wall was an interesting talent to enter his vaunted system.
Hey Feral,
Nice to see I’m not banned here for my unfortunate remarks. Let me just say that I’m not a racist. I didn’t even know what the K word meant until I looked it up. Turns out it was originally a complimentary word, and only became derogatory later on. Later, man.
I Love Larry David
All-Star?
Derrick Williams has a better chance of being an All-Star than Kyrie Irving, Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker, Valanciunas, Jan Vesely and even Kanter…
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Yes. but I think Knight is a really solid prospect too. We dont need him so it is a mute point!
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
The coachability is the kicker for me.
How can it ever be John Wall’s team with surly guy demanding more post touches? Those kind of problems turn into cracks in the locker room, and will never survive the crucible of postseason play.
This really put me over the top, Mike. Great write up.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jun 10, 2011 2:54 PM EDT reply actions
Remember, last year Andray Blatche was suspended for a game for complaining he didn’t have enough plays drawn up for him. He was
The selfish play. The refusal to play good, sound positional defense. The “I’m gonna get mine” attitudes. The sulking. The mental mistakes. That’s the reason the Blatche – McGee front line has to be broken up. I’d rather get rid of Blatche, but he has very little trade value right now.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
blatche is certainly down to his last chance here.
i’ll be the first to admit i wanna see the guy succeed, but its definitely his last chance here.
i have a bunch of former knucklehead nephews and cousins and i’ve watched most of them put things together in their early to mid 20’s. heck i did the same myself. so i look at the whole situation through a different set of filters.
some people are born with more maturity , more responsibility, more sense, etc.; for the rest of us, those are acquired skills. and some of us take longer. athletes are no different.
for all the ink spilled about dray’s last 2 years here, his previous 4 were way worse. his conditioning was way worse, his dedication to the hard work it takes to be good was way lower, and his off-court incidents were way worse. that’s improvement. no, its not good enough but its improvement. training and conditioning, film study, etc. take time to pay off and he’s behind, but the knucklehead stuff has to stop.
as for his value, it only takes one gm to view him as a potential zach randolph. thats exactly what he is. you just pull for him to put things together and be that for us. i don’t see a point in incessant pessimism.
i feel the same way about mcgee. except he's ahead of blatche at the 3 year junction in his career
if the RIGHT trade comes along at the RIGHT time for either of them, then make it. but this isn’t the right trade OR the right time.
for mcgee, at the very least give him until the trade deadline to increase his trade value by building on last season’s progress. for blatche, his contract is highly tradeable if its attached to a good player, so give him one last season (or half-season).
whatever you do, don’t sell low unless you absolutely have to.
I disagree that you have to move all three
I think with McGee, Blatche and Young, you move them if the right opportunity is presented, but don’t dump them for nothing. In this case, it is great value for McGee and an opportunity to get a potential star.
I don’t think trading McGee means we have to let Young walk this summer. If he’s available for reasonable money, then bring him back. Don’t just dump Blatche for nothing. Hold him until we get an opportunity to move him.
yeah i just wouldn't over value him
i like what he brings overall. just wouldn’t break the bank for him.
Thats fine
But I think the reason that you can keep Nick and still move McGee has more to do with price tag than “Rebuild”. If Nick gets offer 10 mil then let him walk, but I’m pretty confident that JaVale will pull almost twice the salary that Nick does.
3 Years, $15M is about the ceiling...
I know the new CBA will probably shorten the max contract length, but you don’t sign guys to 6 year deals when you’re rebuilding.
AverageBro.com - @AverageBro
Right. And he also has done the best job of fitting the role they ask him to play
He got hurt last season, that is all.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Great post.
I’m on the fence with respect to the argument, mainly because the only part of your reasoning that I disagree with is the premise that centers are less important these days. If so, it looks that way only because the skills of the centers have atrophied. Good centers are still hugely significant, and I’d still rather have a good center than a good forward. Hence the old,old adage, “don’t trade big for small.”
So making the trade would depend largely, in my mind, whether we could get a decent replacement center. I actually think JaVale and Kanter together would be a really, really good tandem. Williams and Kanter together I don’t like as much. But Williams and Jonas Valanciunas together might look pretty good. In the end, my two cents is: if we can make the trade with Utah for Kanter, I’d rather do that, than trade away JaVale for Williams.
I think Mike made a lot of good point in his post
But the point you made is my biggest hang up. I think Mike’s supposition that centers are not critical is stretched. Here is what I know.
Every single one of the final 8 teams had a legitimate center. The only one that is questionable is Miami and they have 3 all stars, and still have a defensive presence and legit threat in Anthony. So to say center doesn’t matter is odd. Ask Boston and NYK if you have questions about the value of a center.
I still believe Williams is a tweener. He is more Beasely/granger than stat/gasol/Randolph. I think people would be hard pressed to disagree with that. So that is why I view him as a long term tweener. But Mike’s counter arguments are legit. In any went, would we trade McGee for Granger? Hmm. Interesting question.
But quite frankly, there is only one factor that really matters in my mind. What does John Wall think?
That’s it. Give me that answer, and I give you my position. If he thinks he is a slacker and doesn’t work hard, drop him like a sack of potatoes. But if he is comfortable, I need more than the two pick for him.
By the way, I see Mike just apparently made Williams an all star. Hmmm. When?
Here are the east forwards…
James/stat/bosh/Garnett/pierce and Anthony has joined them. So when is the all star run going to happen?
by DavidDunn on Jun 10, 2011 3:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It certainly is not.
The overall level of talent at center has decreased, so ‘quality’ doesn’t have the same meaning it did in the past. But the fact still remains that most teams don’t have one. So how are they easier to find?
Anyway, the big hole in the whole argument is the interchangeability of centers and PFs. We need to think (and frame our arguments) in terms of big men, not just centers. That’s just the way it is.
Quality Centers
JoahkimNoah,
KendrickPerkins,
Dwight Howard,
Al Horford,
Andrew Bogut,
Brook Lopez,
Andrew Bynum,
Tyson Chandler,
Nene,
Marcus Camby,
Emeka Okafor,
Marc Gasol,
Marcin Gortat,
Al Jefferson,
Chris Kamen,
Samuel Dalembert
seems a lot to me unless you’re saying Dwight Howard is the only one that fits quality center. Obviously you’re center doesn’t have to be the best player on the team as witnessed by the roster of teams that won a championship over the past decade so this list should do for “quality centers” and that’s a lot of players
by Young Wook Lee on Jun 11, 2011 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Lot of guys on the list aren't good enough or healthy enough to win a championship
Horford’s a PF. Lopez stinks lately. Bynum and arguably three or four others are too injury prone. Jefferson and Kaman are too weak on the defensive end for a contender. Dalembert makes too many dumb mistakes.
Also, in the defensive three second era, most Cs are only capable of playing 25-30 minutes per game. That leaves you with 18-23 minutes to fill. To contend you are likely to need two quality Cs on your roster. Factor in injuries, and a quality backup, or even two, becomes even more important.
Filling the 5 spot is as difficult as it ever was.
It depends who surrounds that center.
It is still a team game dominated by the best players in the league. There are fewer dominant centers than in other eras. But big men seem to enter the league in cycles. And Dwight Howard will likely enter the hall of fame a champion. His supporting cast is terribly inferior and his team is poorly constructed.
Despite all the rule changes to minimize the center/front court, the game has not changed that much. You still need to have a strong two-way, inside presence in the NBA to win a championship. EG, just look at how many “perimeter” players play inside on both offense and defense. And if you have a dominant center, you have a leg up on a championship more than at any other position- they shoot the highest percentage from the floor, they contribute to the most offensive rebounds, and are they have the most impact on defense.
I am not saying they are the end-all be all. That era is gone. The center is not gone. They have been minimized and the position ranks among the ways to win a championship, not the only way. There are many ways to construct a championship team, but no “pure” perimeter team has ever nor is likely to ever win it all.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 8:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
hmm....
Kevin Durant
LeBron James
Carmelo Anthony
Danny Granger
Paul Pierce
Wilson Chandler
Gerald Wallace
Ron Artest
Shawn Marion
Rudy Gay
Andrei Kirilenko
Grant Hill
Tayshaun Prince
Caron Butler
I’d say it’s more important to have an explosive wing, than a “quality Center”……
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I think it is more important to have an all-nba player, regardless of position
Personally, I would take Dwight Howard over anyone on that list. But that me.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 12, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
you guys are naming players from the top half of the nba.
name the starting centers for the other half of the league…
concerning bigs in general, the reason they aren’t as good as they were 20 years ago is twofold. 1. the rules of the game have changed in favor of perimeter players, and 2. perimiter players have gotten bigger, taller, faster and stronger, and have closed the size gap. so bigs that would’ve been borderline dominant 20 years ago are now more or less role players.
because of those reasons, there’s are not enough good bigs to go around. naming all the playoff teams’ bigs proves that.
Looking at the list of SF
I’m even more convinced that Derrick Williams is the right move and can be a top 5 SF in the league. And I think he can cause major matchup problems for the other teams. I see no reason he can’t be as good as Shawn Marion in his prime and maybe better. LeBron, KD, and Melo are the only SFs I expect to be betterbthan him.
As for the all-star thing
1. Garnett and Pierce won’t be all-stars in two years
2. The use of the term was in a theoretical, not a specific
3. I do think Williams will provide all-star production – whether he actually makes the team has more to do with reputation and timing than anything.
ok...I think I misinterpreted what you meant by All Star
I thought you meant we can’t pass up trading a long term all star for McGee who probably won’t be one, as part of the criteria.
I am not convinced he will put up all star numbers, but that we will see soon enough. By the way, if he actually does play PF, there is indeed an all star spot or two for the taking once Garnett’s career ends (barring pfs like Love/Griffin moving east on their next contract.
I will say this on that subject….
Derrick Williams has the best chance of being really good, right away… He has the best chance in this year’s crop to be RoY… and if you told me to choose ONE player of all the top 10 players in this draft that would eventually become an All-Star – I would choose Williams.
On the other hand, JaVale McGee’s development has been slow and painful. He works hard – so his physical attributes are getting better and better; he’s getting bigger and stronger…. AND, he’s making sure and steady strides on his post moves, hook shots and other offensive moves…. BUT, his mental capabilities seem to be lagging far behind his physical development; AND his idea of what he wants to do on the court seems to be very DIFFERENT than what the Coaching Staff wants from him… and that may be the most disturbing thing about McGee.
I was vehemently against trading McGee – but after reading a lot of the comments, Mike’s reasoning, BNE’s excellent piece – I’ve flipped…..
I think a trade of McGee for the #2 pick in the draft would be a beneficial trade for both teams. As long as the Wizards Management then starts working on the NEXT step to get rid of Blatche as well…
Even though this is a “weak” draft – the Wizards could potentially walk away with THE two best players from this draft class.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Gee ... no love for my fanpost? It came out days ago! lol
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry
I probably read it… but can’t recall right now…
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
it’s still there lol it went over all this. just patting myself on the back lol you guys have a lot more credibility and i am glad to see it aired out which was the whole point.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
"What does John Wall think?"
That he wants to make the playoffs next season….does adding 3-4 more draft picks actually accomplish that? Or does it set us up for yet another 20ish win season? I’d say the latter
we don't know that...remember Wall called out his
teammates at multiple points last year…he definitely doesn’t like losing, or people who don’t work as hard as him. The question is was Pierre on his bad list (see dribbling exhibitions).
So yes, Wall wants to win. Yes, less rookies will help. But we don’t know the dynamics between Wall and McGee. I assume the dynamics are not good with Blatche, but I could be wrong.
set us up for yet another 20ish win season?
And THAT may be the best reason yet for trading McGee for a draft pick….. A team full of 2nd year players and Rookies will never contend for a Playoff spot – but WOULD almost guarantee another HIGH Lottery pick in a loaded draft….
PG John Wall (Veteran minimum guy as a back-up)
SG Crawford , Nick Young (or Marshon Brooks), Othyus Jeffers
SF Harrison Barnes (or Perry Jones, or Quincy Miller), Rashard Lewis
PF Derrick Williams, Booker,
C Enes Kanter, Seraphin, Ndiaye
Barnes and Williams have the potential to be stars… Kanter will be at the very least a solid starter…
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
by Rook6980 on Jun 10, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yikes, that's a pretty nice long term lineup!
But…couldn’t you say similarly with a JaVale/Kanter froncourt next year? We would probably still garner a high pick with that lineup, too.
by Tbonebullets on Jun 10, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
So next year is another toilet season and then the following one there's another rookie added
and we’re now in Wall’s 3rd year coming off a 20ish win season. So a big improvement gets us what, 35 wins? That would be 3 seasons, no playoffs in the horrendous East, and no gain in credibility as a franchise. Bye John, nice to have known you.
A lineup like that could make a Thunder-like jump.
Plus, a team with John Wall, Derrick Williams, whatever big we pick at #6, a high 2012 pick, Nick Young, and nice bench pieces in Crawford, Booker, and Seraphin should be pretty appealing to free agent centers. Dwight? I’d even settle for Roy Hibbert.
Yeah +1. I'm all for sucking next year.
seriously
exactly how the thunder did it. wasn’t til yr 3 they broke out and became contenders. first they drafted durant, then westbrook, and still ended up in the lottery entering durants 3rd yr. i mean play to win obviously, but another 20 something win season with first and second yr players wouldn’t be the worst.
if the wiz can come away with the best player two drafts in a row, and all it costs us is mcgee, this post doesn’t make it sound so bad. so i say do it. we save money, and get, in general, a better basketball player. also, we all could rest better at night knowing he is going to minnesota, a team, in which in my opinion, will not help him reach his full potential.
and they traded for Kendrick Perkins giving up a top 5 PF pick
funny how you neglected to mention the one pick directly relevant to this discussion….Williams is probably not Green and I am not comparing them, but if we are going to discuss the Thunder rebuild, we should be comprehensive.
One could argue that also shows that a high pick is valuable enough to trade for a center, or that center can be had. But lets make sure the discussion has all of the context.
excellent point!!!
but i think the jump referred to was from low lottery to second round of the playoffs in one season- not from second round up one level to conference finals
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perkins is generally considered . . .
one of the better defensive centers in the league. The same can’t be said of McGee. At least not at this point in his career.
But
the Thunder made that trade AFTER their rebuild was essentially over – and they were at the next step: filling in with Veterans….
The Wizards are no where near that step yet….
Step 1: Shed unwanted players and salary
Step 2: Collect “assets” through the draft
Step 3: Allow the young players to play and develop
Step 4: Determine your “core” players
Step 5: Fill in around the core with veterans….
The Thunder were at Step 5 when they traded for Perkins…
The Wizards are still at Step 1.5
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
NO
He’s part of step 1…….
According to Ted’s plan, you tear down the team to the foundation…… and rebuild from scratch. There are only 3 players left from the “old” Wizards… McGee, Blatche and Young.
They’ve already made one mistake by giving Blatche an extension…. Making the same mistake with McGee will severely limit their flexibility with an as yet unknown hard salary cap.
Having as many players under Rookie contracts as possible – provides maximum flexibility… maximum trade-able assets…. and maximum opportunity to find the right “mix” of players….
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Unwanted and "old" are not synonymous
Using that logic, we should be dumping NY because he wasn’t drafted under the Leonsis regime. Is that your new position?
I don’t recall dumping players not drafted with Ted in charge as part of the plan. I thought the plan was to build homegrown players and groom them. Then decide is the were worthy of a new contract, erring on the side of paying people you drafted to help build a culture and mentality.
We can argue over whether McGee fits that criteria, but that is not the same as deciding he needs to be moved on because he was a member of the “old” Wizards.
So when did we come to the conclusion that McGee fits into the unwanted category. Did I miss a news release? Unwanted and tradeable are not the same.
by DavidDunn on Jun 12, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don't think that's what he was saying
But McGee was a move of the old leadership and this regime has no loyalty to him or motivation to overpay him. Same for Young. If he gets an outrageous offer, let him walk. But there wasn’t a window to really evaluate Nick and move him for compensation if he wasn’t in future plans. There has, however, been opportunity to evaluate McGee’s play and attitude, and those don’t match the salary he’s going to attract on the open market so we have to be prepared to move on.
Mcgee was a move by Ernie!
So was Young. And Blatche, and Blatche’s extension. I don’t understand all the “break from the past” talk and new/old regime when the guy running the show is the exact same person. Maybe he has different marching orders, but it’s the same guy making the decisions.
by DCrez on Jun 12, 2011 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ted had an influence; he was not the decision maker
he was not the majority owner
by les boulez bomber on Jun 13, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
He had more influence than ernie ever had at any given point in time.
44% is a lot of influence, any way you cut it. Just because his name wasn’t associated with decisions in the media doesn’t mean he had no input or sway.
In fact I think Leonsis was heavily involved with the Michael Jordan hire in 2001.
it is still less than the 50% abe had plus his seniority
I think most feel that Abe set the tone when he was alive until maybe the final few months
by les boulez bomber on Jun 13, 2011 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
who was in the leadership position is not in question here.
the question is whether Ted had influence, and thus whether he is as much a part of the old guard as EG, Blatche, and McGee.
…oh…i specifically stated
ted had an influence; he was not the decision maker
ted is the new majority owner. he is not going any where and is just getting started running the show….I feel it is a mute point whether he is part of the old guard or not. He is the top of the chain.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 14, 2011 6:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Is Derrick Williams as good as Kevin Durant?
Because that’s the reality of the supposed Thunder model. Draft arguably the single best offensive player in the league.
Not right now, no. Was that a loaded question lol
But Williams is closer to Westbrook bec one might consider Wall our Durant pick. Or he could be Harden bec we will have another lottery pick next year.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Wall is not Durant.
Durant is Durant. Whether we like it or not, there are many young, bad ass PGs out there and more on the horizon. Hopefully Wall will become the best of them.
But Durant is another thing entirely and why I am not comfortable with the “Oklahoma City model” as a supposed path. What it really is is acquiring one one of the singular, special players in the league.
Is Derrick Williams potentially that good? I dont know maybe?
Wall has the looks of being a top 5 player
I think everyone can agree that Derrick Rose is a top 5 player and I see no reason that Wall can’t be better than Rose. Yeah, Rose has more of a score first mentality, but Jimmy put up comparable numbers in his rookie year and has the advantage in so many other areas.
He’s just as quick as Rose, has comparable athleticism, is 2-3 more inches in height, already started bulking up, his jumper was no worse than Rose as a rookie and is his focal point in offseason improvement, he’s a better passer, a better rebounder, and uses Rose’s career as his guide/bar that he’s looking to exceed.
Wall expects to be an MVP candidate by year 3. So I’d have to say that we can put him in the Durant and Rose category as a prospect. Thing is that his game will do more to make his teammates better than either of those two. That’s why we need to surround him with the best talent possible. Derrick Williams certainly has the talent and a superior track record to develop into a Russell Westbrook caliber player.
series of massive assumptions there imho.
DRose was the MVP, Wall was outplayed by Jose Calderon. I’m all onboard with hoping Wall gets to Rose’ level and expect great things from him….but the assumption he is a Durant level player is too big a leap for me until I see the improvements. But that’s just me.
Wall is comparable with Rose as a rookie
But Rose made huge strides and I mean HUGE, OTHERWORDLY strides. So even if Wall is right up there with Rose as a rookie it is unhumane to expect him to be as good in yr 3 as Rose is in his third yr
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 11, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't see why
His trajectory from high school to college to his rookie season has been that of a superstar so I see no reason to temper our expectations. He’s as highly regarded as a prospect as there’s been since LeBron.
So yes, I expect him to have the 3rd year production of LeBron, Durant, Rose, Paul. If he doesn’t reach that level by year 3, 4 at the latest, then he is a disappointment and didn’t match the hype.
He has to be that good by end of his 3rd year
or we have to trade him rather than risk other teams offering him a big contract.
by DCrez on Jun 12, 2011 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It all comes down to JaVale's head
If you think he can actually figure out how to play good, smart defensive basketball then I think you have to oppose the trade. And it’s tantalizing: it’s a whole lot easier to improve your defensive positioning than jump 4 inches higher. I just don’t think it’s going to happen. It’s not Javale’s fault, he seems like a smart guy who really has worked hard to improve, but he doesn’t seem to have the instincts to get better, despite who his mother is.
Great article.
I don't think hes gonna
“Get IT” anytime soon. Remember when Ron Artest said he plays like a video game, “run and jump” heheheh. Well other basketball players can tell that A) JVM is very talented but B) he doesnt get it and that is so detremental to a team like the Wizards.
If McGee played behind Duncan, or malone or Alonzo Mourning (Im kinda drawing a blank on names), but the point is if he played on a veteran team with a high IQ bball center/pf, THEN I think he could reach his potential.
Unfortunately JVM came behind Haywood (not a bad center) but not a teacher or the TYPE of teacher JVM would need to actually one day get it.
DO THE TRADE in a hertbeat straight up, JVM is not gonna blow up in Sota lol and hes not going to take us Wizards to the plyoffs, hes not that difference maker.
who on this team plays "good, smart defensive basketball"?
that is coaching moreso than it is players imo.
And I know your penchant for calling for Flip's head
because you don’t believe he can coach defense….
BUT –
Nick Young became a much better defender under Saunders’ tutelage the past year and a half.
John Wall improved defensively throughout the year
Trevor Booker improved…
even Yi was playing better defense at the end of the year….
You get players to buy in to playing defense (Young, Wall, etc…) and the defense gets better…. You can’t get them to buy in (Blatche, McGee) then it doesn’t matter WHO the coach is……
Bring in players with a mindset to play tough defense (Jeffers, Owens) – and Flip’s defense suddenly looks passable…..Bring in even better players THIS year, and get rid of the defensively challenged players – and I think you will be amazed how much better the Wizards defense will look in 2 years.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
by Rook6980 on Jun 10, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
even Kevin
got better defensively. He was getting better playing pick and rolls. Still fouling too much but getting it.
by Jheiser3 on Jun 11, 2011 4:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Javale Is Entertaining and Likeable!
It’s fun to watch him grow and improve. At some point, I’d rather not just cheer for the jersey.
Bullets fan stuck in CO.
by Krusty2 on Jun 10, 2011 3:04 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't think we should try to build with both Blatche and McGee
The way I see it, though, McGee plus what we could get for Blatche is going to be less than Blatche plus what we could get for McGee. I think McGee has way more upside than Blatche, but that Blatche has been less inept in the past. Together, though, they are terrible. They just don’t complement each other well at all. It seems to me that a McGee trade is addition by subtraction — and I don’t think it’s because of attitude. We just won’t have a championship without one of our two big men bringing more on defense than an average player brings on offense.
That’s a long-winded way of saying we’ll probably be a better team without Pierre, even though the Williams trade seems risky. Breaking up the two of them makes it worth the risk for me.
by Elvin_is_my_Elvis on Jun 10, 2011 3:13 PM EDT reply actions
No Way
I think it is best to deal Blatche for the time being and let JaVale improve. He only has one full season as a starter under his belt. He averaged a near double double this year and was a league leader in blocks. He just needs to improve his post game and IQ. Also needs to get stronger. But I think it would be extremely stupid.
Its doubtfull that his
IQ will improve lol. highly doubtfull. Whereas at least Dre can BALL, have you seen his post moves and he understands basketball. Keep Blatche, let Wall lead the way, let Booker and the other new blood improve and challenge Blatche and we have a whole new team. JVM is awesome but not a fit for the Wizards
I honestly don't understand why people are criticizing Derrick Williams so much.
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
He reminds me too much of Beasley.
Am I off?
Bullets fan stuck in CO.
They are similiar
But Williams is a way better athlete, better shot blocker, more consistent shooter, and rebounds better.
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
Beasley is also a drug-addict who wasted all his talent his first two years.
but look at him now. Now, he isn’t playing like a bust and if it weren’t for his attitude, he would be on the Heat with both LeBron and Wade(no Bosh since they wouldn’t need him).
If Williams is Beasley without the problems or poor work ethic, then he is well worth the #2 pick and giving up McGee.
Skins rule
Smoking grass is not the same as drug addict (that´s a strong term right there)
however, he does have a poor attitude overall
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 11, 2011 6:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Williams is a good bit more physical.
The way he’ll throw his shoulder into a guy when attacking the basket is something that Beasley did rarely in college and doesn’t do at all in the pros.
I think that’s Beasley’s #1 on court issue. Will see him shy away from contact way too often.
Beasley is a headcase...
..and has been one since he was recruited in high school. This was the knock on him coming into the league, and he’s lived up to the label.
I’ve heard no such concerns about Williams.
I think a better comparison is Jamal Mashburn. He also played the post in college, and successfully made the transition to the perimeter as a pro.
AverageBro.com - @AverageBro
actually spot on.
i’m just upset i didn’t mention it myself.
I'll buy that.
But would you rather have Mashburn or Javale?
Bullets fan stuck in CO.
Why?
Not saying you are wrong; I just want to know the basis for your opinion.
FWIW, Beasley and Mashburn are very similar statistically but obviously that tells only part of the story.
Bullets fan stuck in CO.
Today's sad news about the passing of Mike Mitchell reminded me...
of what a fine player he was back in the day and before the drugs got to him.
I think there are some similarities between what Mitchell brought and what Williams would bring to the Wizards.
I keep going back and forth on this, but going for the big R rebuild with Williams and Wall as the centerpieces is beginning to work for me!
Mashburn. Seriously.
No offense to Javale, because I love watching the guy play, but his ceiling is probably Tyson Chandler. Not that you don’t need those guys, but a legitimate stud who could potentially score 25/night is more valuable.
I also believe replacing Javale with a more “conventional” center (don’t ask me who, I have no idea) who has a higher basketball IQ could be addition by subtraction on defense. I’d give up all the highlight reel dunks and blocks for a guy who knows how to play good man defense and rotate properly. In some ways, he almost seems uncoachable. Then there’s the looming contract extension. Personally, I’d rather have all this be someone else’s problem.
Now, Javale for the chance to draft Kanter? No effin’ way.
AverageBro.com - @AverageBro
And Mikes point is that Williams can play PF
Mashburn was never a PF on the pros. So this analogy presents Williams as a tweener. The point you make is a good one. Lots of viable players in that area. But awfully tough to become a perennial all star, as seems to be suggested in this post, although I could be misinterpreting Mike’s all stat point.
by DavidDunn on Jun 10, 2011 4:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
David West then.... I think David West is Williams' floor
Undersized Power Forward on a team with a super star Point Guard…
19 points, 8 rebounds a game…. Steady.
Is he a Super Star? No….
Is he good enough to be 3rd option on a Championship team? YES
So even if Derrick Williams never becomes a Super Star like Durant or LeBron, he still has tremendous value building a Championship team… It just means that the Wizards will have to find that second Super Star player in next year’s draft ( Perry Jones ?, Harrison Barnes ? )
But by trading for Williams this year, they can potentially walk away from this draft with the two best players in this draft class…. Williams and Kanter.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
BUT
I believe that Williams will get MUCH more playing time than David West did when he was a Rookie…. and will, as a result, develop much faster…..
I would expect that by year two, Williams will be putting up 16, 6 – and will eventually be a 20,8 player…..
It’s all about playing time… West only got 13 minutes a game as a Rookie ; 18 minutes a game his second season… by his 3rd year, he was putting up 17 points and 7.5 rebounds in 34 minutes….and was an All-Star in his 5th and 6th seasons….
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Hmm...very interesting...
I can’t see making that trade, but to each their own. I guess everyone’s assessment of a center in the NBA has dropped dramatically.
You can't see making a trade
to obtain a two-time All-Star player that puts up CONSISTENTLY from year to year 18 points 9 rebounds; AND plays decent defense
for a guy that shows tremendous “potential”, but has yet to put it together…. continues to be a coaching headache… Plays abysmal team defense. Cannot seem to understand the goal tending rule…. Continually gets beat because he leaves his feet… Has no go-to offensive move, and still after 3 years in the League, lacks the strength to hold his position in the Post?
You really don’t make that trade?
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
David West doesn't play decent defense.
One thing that’s consistent around here is that we talk up players we want, and talk down players that we wanna ship out. Blatche is a better defender than West.
by jones-y on Jun 10, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah I know, that's how they made the playoffs.
Blatche is a better defender than West, going on skillset. What holds Blatche back is motor and level of effort. But its not like West is miles better in those departments.
West is a weak defender. You can have a weak defender on a good defensive team.
West has a better adjusted plus minus
West has a better defensive Rating (104 points per 100 possessions, vs Blatche’s 108)
AND – even the eye test (my favorite) tells me that, although David West is by no means a defensive stopper – he puts for MUCH more effort, and plays smarter “team” defense than Andray Ole Blatche.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
One thing that amazes me is that some people consistently OVERVALUE players on the Wizards as compared to players on other teams.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
NOW – if you want to talk about “potential” to be a good defender…. well, yeah………..Blatche has that potential… but we haven’t seen it in 6 years, so I doubt we’ll suddenly start seeing it next year, or any time soon.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
We've seen plenty of glimpses.
Plenty. So much so in fact, that if we hadn’t, we wouldn’t get so frustrated that he doesn’t do it all the time.
just don't see low effort guys...
become high effort guys – especially while with the same team.
He didn't become a low effort defender until he was a main offensive option.
So you can’t completely categorize his as that.
Am I overvaluing John Wall
if I think he can become better than Chris Paul?
by Young Wook Lee on Jun 11, 2011 3:25 AM EDT up reply actions
On the eye test we agree. I've already conceded that.
I haven’t looked up the stats, I’ll leave that to you guys.
However, from a purely skillset standpoint, Blatche is the superior defender (he’s also the superior rebounder, and is in West’s league offensively). We’ve all seen him take plays off. But we’ve also all seen him come up with clutch defensive stops, blocks, steals, and rebounds. His issue, again, is motor and effort. Not skill. IMO he’s the more talented player in all aspects of the game.
Why is West a weak defender?
New Orleans has unbelievable defensive rotations, and so much of that is that West slides his feet really well and walls off the paint with Okafor. Blatche, meanwhile, has slow feet, doesn’t help his teammates and gives horrendous effort.
West
doesn’t defend the post particularly well, doesn’t defend the midrange particularly well, doesn’t defend the perimeter particularly well. He puts the effort in and plays sound team defense. You gotta give him that. But that’s about it.
AND
Where exactly does Blatche defend?
Other than defending his Doritos…..
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Blatche can defend all those areas.
Again I concede that he needs to put in more effort. But he has at times. And when he does, he’s a much better defender than West.
LOL
Blatche is a much better defender than David West…. when Blatche puts in the effort…..
(which is when he wants a new contract… or the last 10 games of a season…. or when he gets called out by his PG – - – other than those few games, he skates by playing ole defense).
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with every word of that
He’s more than adequate in all of those areas.
About the only area where he’s below average on defense is on the glass.
at the time of the draft? No. I am not making that trade
But it isn’t because I think McGee is better…it is because I think his value is higher…that is and has been my only point. We should be asking for more than a rookie with potential for a legitimate NBA center, especially before his ceiling is locked in.
by DavidDunn on Jun 10, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I still don't get this "rookie with potential" designation
Not all rookies are the same. I honestly think you’re thinking too abstractly with respect to value.
The trade idea is JaVale for Derrick Williams. The bottom line is how good you think Williams will be. Sure, you don’t “know,” but that’s why you have scouts and all of those people in your organization.
You are correct. I am thinking in terms of
the NFL Draft Pick value scale. If we assigned points to the value of the #2 pick vs a 3rd year center who has shown the potential of being a legitimate top 10 center in the league., I don’t think they would be valued the same due to position. Therefore, I think we should be getting more for McGee. That is all. If the question is simply make a binary decision between McGee and Williams based on what we know, you make a good argument that Williams is going to be a better player long term. I would lean towards Williams. But I think we have to make sure we maximize value if we are going to trade McGee.
Think of it this way. If the idea is that we are now planning on trading McGee, do you think we could receive assets more valuable than Williams based on McGee’s currently assumed value? I think so, but you may disagree.
Your post was great and provided a strong argument for making the trades. I am simply providing the point of view that I think we should not make the trade unless Minnesota adds an additional asset or we should shop McGee for something even better and more well defined.
OK, I see what you're saying
I disagree, since I don’t think that there’s any team in the league that likes McGee as much as Minnesota, but I hear what you’re saying.
by Mike Prada on Jun 11, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
cool....you have your ear a lot closer
to the ground due to your contact than I could ever have based on your position.
I would only counter slightly that McGee is a member of the Team USA pool. And it isn’t out of the realm of possibility that he makes the team if someone like Howard stays away in his contract year. At a minimum, folks like Colangelo and Krzyzewski see something there (or they were just filling space last year, who knows). As I said earlier, we see his globetrotters act 82 games a year and it tends to magnify our view. I think we may be undervaluing his perceived value. I mean someone is probably going to throw 8M- 9M to Greg Oden based purely on his age and size.
I feel like Javale’s value may be up there with some other teams.(I bet a D’Antoni Knicks wouldn’t mind him, Celtics would likely have him as a Howard backup plan next year). Now is that value commensurate with the #2 pick, we shall see.
The post served its purpose though. It extended a lot of good discussion and debate.
Now if you want another week of traffic for the price of a single post, make another pass at whether we should sign Nick Young :)
But
That wouldn’t be until after McGee is a RFA next summer and we will have had to pay him. Someone will make an offer and we will have to decide if we should match.
You never get best value in sign and trades. Best time to make deals is at the deadline, but it’s tough to do with a player with only two months remaining on their rookie deal in a potentially strike shortened season. Especially when the said player has only shown flashes.
Trading him now makes most sense because of timing and the window we have before forking over a large contract.
I don't doubt you are right that other teams would
want to trade for McGee.
But what would the Knicks or Celtics be able to offer that’s better than the 2nd pick?
The Knicks aren’t trading Amare or Anthony. And I’d rather have Williams than Fields and a pick in the teens.
The Celtics aren’t trading Rondo, Pierce, Allen or Garnett and will have another pick in the 20s next year. I’d rather have Williams than Jeff Green and a pick in the 20s.
by SPTSJUNKIE on Jun 11, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Williams is that good, do it
Look, McGee (and Blatche, for that matter) need to stop improving “slightly” each year. They need break-throughs, both in the their games and in their attitudes. McGee simply does not have a head for the game. If it weren’t for his freakish athleticism, where would he be? He can be taught to play within a system to a degree, but I think he’s shown he’s not really going to get the pro game.
If Williams is that good (and I’m not in a position to say whether he is or not, I can’t watch much college bball), I say do it — if he’s got a good attitude and a head for the game. Otherwise, it’s just trading for the same thing.
If Williams is a PF, then the question becomes what to do with Blatche? I see two options: a) let Williams and Blatche fight it out. Maybe Blatche needs a little competition to fire him up (for more than a few weeks at a time). b) Sucker some other team into trading us a SF or C.
Young can stay because I think he can be a real player if he’s got people around him who work to win. It seems he’s easily influenced by his peers — and in that vein, Blatche (and Arenas last year) were just not good for him. I think having some people who work to win — like Wall — will do him a world of good.
I hate to say it but here’s my prediction: if the Wiz don’t drop Blatche and McGee and pick up some solid players with a work ethic and a will to win, they will go nowhere. Period. If Williams fits that bill, get him!
Tom
What do we do at center if we trade McGee?
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 10, 2011 3:42 PM EDT reply actions
Use our second pick on a big
Kanter/Valanciunas/ Biyombo for a season. Then look to upgrade even further next summer in FA when McGee will be the 4th best center on the market behind Howard, Hibbert, and Lopez.
Curious, and it's difficult to predict without knowing the details of the next CBA, but who figures to be in the market for Dwight Howard?
Who else looks to challenge us outside of Brooklyn and Orlando? Certainly seems like we would present the greater long-term viability to win a championship than Orlando, with Wall and a compliment of talented youth (Crawford, Young (?), whatever we would get for McGee, #6 pick this year, lotto pick next year, etc.).
A major market team, far bigger market than Orlando. Same could theoretically be said about Brooklyn, but they’d only be the second biggest team in the state. Who else will have the cap space to make a run?
Don’t we have a legitimate shot at getting Howard?
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 10, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I bet we have a better chance for
A sign and trade with McGee than without him. But without knowing the CBA, it is tough to know if that is relevant.
Boston will be a player for Howard and Dallas.
by DavidDunn on Jun 10, 2011 4:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How would Boston or Dallas be able to afford him?
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 10, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn, Boston's exceedingly intriguing
They only have Rondo ($11 million) and Pierce ($16 million) on the books after net season. However, what other pieces would they have? Rondo, Dwight Howard, and late-round draft picks every year with the cap room to add maybe one, maybe two more starters?
The Wizards could conceivably possess John Wall, Jordan Crawford, Nick Young, #6 overall pick (let’s say Kawhi Leonard, for shits and giggles), next year’s lotto pick (let’s say stud wing player), Trevor Booker, Kevin Seraphin, pick #18 this year. A deep, young core to build around. And that is not including whatever we could potentially receive in trades for McGee or Blatche, ideally a starting caliber 4. … And if we trade McGee for Derrick Williams this year, well, we’ll have all the pieces in place to immediately contend at the top of the East (with Wall, Young, next year’s star rookie wing, Derrick Williams, Dwight Howard, with Crawford, Booker, Seraphin, #18, other vets, etc. coming off the bench)
Dwight Howard would be just ‘another star’ in Boston; in LA, he would never be bigger than Blake Griffin (or Kobe, for that matter); in Brooklyn, the Nets face relevancy concerns with the cross-town Knicks, who will always be bigger. And the Nets don’t have the prospects that we have, while Deron Williams is 7 years older than Wall and that much closer to his decline
Howard would be able to play with the all-star stud point guard he’s never had, the kind of guy who could manufacture explosive offensive performances out of not much, the kind of player who could be a perfect long-term compliment for everything that Howard brings to the table defensively. Plus, Howard comes in to a team with depth and tons of room to grow, to a franchise that hasn’t seen a championship in generations, a major media market, and a city that would cherish him as a king.
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 10, 2011 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
well...I think Boston hopes Green turns into something...
but I always assumed Ainge pulled the trigger on that trade specifically to make a run at Howard.
I hope he gives us a look. I am just not sure he would come here based on potential. He is going to be battling Miami, so he is going to want some history of success.
We would be able to provide far more than Boston would, in this scenario
Wall may be a better all-around player than Rondo in two years, at least more explosive offensively. Pierce will be 34, and I don’t think Jeff Green is a better fit for Howard than Nick Young. Plus, we’d still have all of our other assets.
Howard will be 26 when he joins a new team next season (or re-signs with the Magic). I would imagine that he will look for a team that gives him the longest and best possible chances to win titles. Theoretically, a team like Dallas or the Lakers could give him a shot to win a title right away, but those teams aren’t build to last very long. Same with Boston.
Howard’s a fun lovin dude. We have a lockerroom full of young, funny guys. What’s not to like? In Washington, he could compete for titles for the next 9 years with Wall. Miami’s decline may come sooner than most expect (Wade is already 29 — will he be better than Kobe is at age 32?).
I just don’t see how Washington ISN’T a top contender to sign Howard. And I can’t figure out where else he may want to (or should) sign ahead of us
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 10, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
DW is a perfect complement to DH
Man that would jazz me up! …especially if we got Barnes in the draft
Wall, Young, Barnes, Williams, Howard…that is a champion contender
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly, an immediate championship contender, up there after Miami and Chicago
And primed to overtake them down the road as our young stars continue to develop
Most importantly, Howard would bring to the table a defense-first mentality that we so desperately need to be winners. That veteran leadership would be best served (and mostly likely to be heeded) on a team of impressionable young players
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 10, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Won't be able to afford him. The Clippers on the other hand...
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 10, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
wouldnt want to pay him. and williams is a better fit than blake
lakers- why to get in a year or two with kobe
if we had wall and williams and some other legit prospects. it would be a very strong enticement. i dont think ted has the will power to trade for him
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't think anyone signs with Sterling unless they have no choice
by Scizzy on Jun 10, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, but you have to factor in Howard's desires to be a media star
He wants to act, and he’d establish incredible contacts in LA to do so
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 10, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Why would the Clips do that when they have Deandre Jordan?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jun 11, 2011 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
he is a free agent...maybe they are not sure they can sign him?
We all know how notoriously cheap Sterling is…
So he can save for a year or two?
Even I would be shocked if Sterling was THAT cheap
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jun 12, 2011 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyone else a potentially serious contender for Howard?
- Philadelphia — would obviously have to move either Iguodala’s $15 million salary (likely) or Brand’s $18 million salary (impossible)
- Brooklyn
- Houston (?)
- LA Clippers (?)
- Oklahoma (?) — would obviously have to move Perkins and his $8 million salary
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 10, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Feel like Philly may be our biggest threat
With Jrue Holliday, Evan Turner, Lou Williams, they’ve got a lot of young backcourt talent, more playoff tested than we are. In a legit major-market city. And they’ll have the cap flexibility after getting out from Iggy and Elton Brand (ends in 2012/2013) to sign another top free agent.
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 10, 2011 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
/ Wouldn't Howard in Oklahoma guarantee a trip to the finals every year?
With Howard, Durant, and Westbrook/Chris Paul… who stops them?
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 10, 2011 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
hey Tom - Crossward
I like how you think, great points below
a) let Williams and Blatche fight it out. Maybe Blatche needs a little competition to fire him up (for more than a few weeks at a time
Young can stay because I think he can be a real player if he’s got people around him who work to win. It seems he’s easily influenced by his peers — and in that vein, Blatche (and Arenas last year) were just not good for him. I think having some people who work to win — like Wall — will do him a world of good.
great minds think alike
I think everyone is criticizing Williams because...
the Rook has everyone in the tank for Kanter! I saw quite a few people go from not thinking much of him, to do everything you can to get him…and now the smear campaign of Williams to convince everyone he is not worth trading for!
I really don’t think too many people will miss JaVale’s low Bball IQ!
Trade him now!
We need building blocks (who knows how to play)and lots of losses to make a splash in next years draft!
"I get buckets, son!" Oleksiy Pecherov
" I can dodge BULLETS, baby" Phil Hellmuth
uhm, Rook seems to be in favor off this trade and I know he has Williams over Kanter on his draft board
I´m one of those who is not really convinced about Williams and who´s high on Kanter.
However, I´ve also said that if we keep the # 6th pick and draft a combo out of three players: Williams, Kanter, Valanciunas, I´m for the trade.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 11, 2011 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions
The only criticisms I had against Williams were
1. that he was a “Tweener” – and that argument was discounted when his combine measurements show that he is clearly big enough to play PF…. and
2. That he didn’t play hard on defense….
My Wizards draft board STILL has Williams at number 1,
2. Kanter
3. Jan Vesely
4. Chris Singleton
5. Alec Burks
6. Biyombo
Wall + Williams + Blatche + 6th pick is a better combination than
Wall + Kanter + McGee + Blatche…………….
It becomes a SLAM DUNK win for the Wizards if they can get Williams with #2 and Kanter with the 6th pick….
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I'd still try to move up for Kanter
Take Williams at 2 and Kanter at 3. That Okur deal could save/earn Utah more than $15 million between the salary dump, difference in draft slot for their PG prospect, and maybe $3 million in cash.
I am starting to get less concerned about Williams as a SF when you really consider the other SFs in the league. I think a Rudy Gay would give him trouble, but the Granger, LeBron, Carmelo, and even Durant types succeed more because of their size/skill combo and DW’s size and strength could give them problems. He’d be a power 3 as les Boulez bomber tagged him.
I like this look:
Wall, Young, Williams, Blatche, Kanter
Crawford, Jeffers, Singleton/Hamilton/Brooks, Booker, Seraphin, Okur
I do think that’s enough talent to get a low seed in the playoffs because our draft picks actually dramatically improve team IQ and I expect a huge jump from Wall. All of that makes us a lot more attractive to Dwight. I’m drooling over Williams, Kanter, and Howard as the most imposing front court in the leave.
It will be hard for CLE to pass on Irving at this point. And they have a PF prospect already.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
That´s why a trade like this cannot be finalized until after the 5th pick
That´s when we know what Cleveland, Toronto and Utah are going to do their picks
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 11, 2011 7:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Am I the only one ...
who has a hard time believing Minnesota would trade the #2 for McGee straight-up? David Kahn jokes aside, and I know Chad Ford floated the idea, but this seems like wishful thinking.
Needless to say, I’d take the deal in a heartbeat.
This is all about "need".
Minny has the #1, #3, and #4 spots filled. They need a center, and McGee is more ready to contribute than any pivot man in this draft. That team needs to win NOW to show Kevin Love they are serious.
And yeah, Kahn’s also an idiot who has a long track record of making dubious personnel decisions. All that’s gotta help.
AverageBro.com - @AverageBro
and to your point...JVM really complements Love. It is a great trade for them
There is no one in this entire draft that complements that team better
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. He´s a great fit for them
It would surely hurt seeing him leave…
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 11, 2011 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but we are comforted in the fact that Kahn is unlikely to pull it all together. Addubf JVM and Rubio this offseason would be a good start for them.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 8:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Great article
Your thoughts on D Williams and JVM mirror mine exactly.
Questions…
1) I don’t know about the credibility of draft express but I saw them recently move DW to #1. Are you confident enough in this trade that you would make it before the draft (ala miller/foye deal) or is it only made when the twolves hit the clock?? If DW is chosen does Irving have any value for this team???
2) is blatche + 6 anywhere comparable?? I LOVE the idea of wall/McGee and would happily give up that extra pick (which I don’t put a lot of value in) if it brought us the same returns. Hell, I would add even more to that package, including 18, if it brought us the same returns.
VOID!!!
What we've discussed so far
deals with trading only after we’re ready to make the 6th pick. If CLE drafts DW, then we simply don’t make the trade and cross our fingers
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jun 11, 2011 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you guys think a starting frontcourt of Williams/Kanter is formidable?
6’8"/6’9" and 6’10"/6’11" kind of worries me a little. I do like that both those guys have a lot of muscle to them, however. It would kind of be the exact opposite of our front court now (6’11" and 7’1" and both stringbeans) which can’t be a bad thing right?
Kanter should be fine at Center as long as we don't face any high school teams.
I mean seriously, this kid is 19yrs old and has barely played in 2yrs. He’s making the leap from the shelf to the nba….he is going to be absolutely schooled on the defensive end. Best you can hope for in Year1 is that his offense translates well because the defensive end is going to be ugly while he learns and adjusts IMHO
Yeah I hear you on that one
He seems to possess the tools to be a solid post defender, however, so hopefully the only issue for him would be adjusting to the NBA.
I think if you do this trade...
You go for a defensive minded big man with your next pick. Biyombo, Farried, someone, no matter if we have to trade down to make it a better deal, we should go for some defense inside imo.
While I wouldn’t mind seeing Kanter drafted, this team could have a lot of defensive issues with him and Williams in the front court. But if that happened, I definitely wouldn’t be mad, just hopeful that Kanter is better defensively than recently advertised.
And I agree, if Javale is traded, Blatche should be next.
Play Williams at SF….
Split the PF/Center duties between Blatche (until he’s traded), Kanter and Seraphin
Maybe pick up a guy like Vucevic with the 18th pick…. or perhaps a guy like Festus Ezeli with the 34th pick….
OR hope that Hamaday Ndiaye develops enough to play 10-15 minutes a night….
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Festus didn't declare this year...
none of the Vandy kids did.
One way I look at this trade
I ask myself is McGee ever going to be a legit 2nd or 3rd option on a winning team? My answer is NO. Then I ask myself if D Williams could ever be that 2nd or 3rd option and my answer is YES. So I guess I am pulling the trigger on this trade. I don’t like to see JVM go but it might not be a bad idea to rebuild strictly around Wall. D Williams is an IDEAL teammate for Wall. Those 2 in transition could be devastating. I think Nick Young is also an ideal backcourt mate for Wall so resigning him should happen as well. Sure our roster would still have some holes in it but a SF in next years draft would be sweet. I would be ecstatic with a D Williams / Kanter / Singleton draft. Holy shit.
One more thing. I don't want to get too excited but...
If we managed to draft D Williams, I would hope in 2012 free agency Dwight Howard takes a serious look at the Wiz. Why wouldn’t he? We’d have a ton of cap room, an elite point guard for him to play with, a big market, and I think D Williams would be the perfect compliment to Dwight in the front court as a guy who is also a great athlete, is effecient, and can stretch the D with his shooting. A big 3 of Wall, Howard, and Williams would make us a contender for a long time
by jeffco01 on Jun 10, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Basketball is not only about scoring
Would you trade Chandler or Noah for Williams straight up?
Not comparing McGee, just asking about two people who will never be option 2 or 3.
As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, we are literally discussing the Perkins / Green trade. Very similar arguments were made in Boston I bet about someone coming up on a contract (and they had two potential center backups).
I will throw that out to the entire group.
What did everyone think of the Perkins/Green trade? Aside from age, isn’t this argument very similar? Granted we know a bit more about Green, but out of school he is had a similar pedigree, correct?
Would you trade Chandler or Noah for Williams straight up?
No…. But both of those players are SMART High Basketball IQ players … play exceptional defense… and play within their respective Coaches systems.
JaVale is NOT and does NOT.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Let's not forget, Chandler was considered a bust before his present level of performance.
Center’s take some time to develop.
Howard and Shaq contributed to about 25 wins in their first year
In fact, Shaq’s stats peaked about his third year.
So some do some dont. Most do need two to three years to build up. But developing skills is about time and effort. It’s what is inside their head and hearts that matter.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
That doesn't mean he never will
He’s already improved by leaps and bounds. Sounds like an issue of patience. Which is something we fans of the rebuilding team should have. I don’t get it.
there is a salary cap jones-y and he will take up too much of it to wait and hope
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Not necessarily.
Why do we all of a sudden think McGee will cost so much?
How much do you think Greg Oden
will command as a RFA this Summer? 8 Million? 9 Million?
And he hasn’t played in two years…. But someone will pay him that just on his “potential”…
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I doubt it.
Anyway I’d give McGee a Blatche-like or slightly larger contract in a heartbeat.
Jones-y
where would you draw the line on paying McGee to resign…the current player
5mm 8mm 10mm ???
am curious
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
aside from your humorous ones, this is my favorite post by you so far
because I know how much you like his potential, but you had the balls to not only have a line in the sand, but one that is not in the stratosphere
I feel some people here would pay any price to keep him. and that is not interesting to debate
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Well thanks, bomber...
Everyone has a value. But the problem with sports contracts in general is that you are paying a player for the next few years based on either what they did last year, or what you think they’ll do next year. Its risky business.
Now with McGee, you have to factor in his God-Given gifts. They are especially rare. But to date, he hasn’t earned much more than mid-level starting center money, because he hasn’t performed much better than a mid-level starting center.
Of course this all could change, depending on what he does next year. If he plays like a $10m player for a season, then I wouldn’t too much mind paying him that. But I don’t think he weighs the team down financially at $8m per. I think that’s a hit the team could survive if he somehow fails to pan out.
I think he costs about 15% of whatever the new salary cap turns out to be
Because as you already know and pointed out, he is a good back up center on a good team today. Plus he has the potential to be the best center in the league and dominant. That is worth 15% of the payroll for sure.
A top 6 man gets 10% without the potential!
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
If the idea is McGee is a lost cause, and will put on the carnival act
over and over again, never learn a thing about team d, and will be going for pump fakes until age 30. than let’s get rid of him. But quite frankly, I am not sure how any of us can make that assessment. Granted, some interviews and actions have not done him any favors.
But I still think we are undervaluing McGee, and could get more than just Williams for him, especially if the idea is he is going to be such a hot commodity on the market that he will price himself out of our market…
But you considered Green a focal point of the Thunder
real build as recently as 18 months ago? Evaluating young talent is tough. Which is why I think McGee’s value may be higher than we are giving him credit for. As I said in some of the earlier posts, McGee was mentioned with Gasol and Ellis as part of a straight up deal with Minny. Do any of us think LA or GS would do that deal? Of course those could all be wrong, but the idea is there that McGee has a similar value from the standpoint of value to Minnesota.
This is why I think even though the arguments for Williams are good, and thinking about how the rest of the draft would play out is intriguing, I feel like we simply should be asking for more if we are trading McGee. I don’t think he is irreplaceable. I just think that #2 on its own is not enough to make me pull the trigger UNLESS Wall wants him out or Ernie knows he is walking/will ask for an unreasonable contract.
I sure didn't consider Green a focal point of their team
18 months ago, not this year
http://www.bulletsforever.com/2010/1/20/1261592/no-building-blocks
- Jan 20, 2010 8:31 AM PST
This of course is what makes trading the fifth pick in last year’s draft so tragic. The Wizards decided they had enough young players and wanted proven guys, but in this league, you can never have enough young players. You never know when your best-laid plans falter, and when they do, you need those young bucks in tow to sell hope to your fans, sell a future to yourself and help lead you into a new era. Sure, the big prizes of the draft (Blake Griffin, Tyreke Evans, even James Harden and Ricky Rubio) were either off the board or never coming over here. But at least we could count on someone like Stephen Curry, Jonny Flynn or Brandon Jennings to be a guy who could be a focal piece of a new era. Maybe not the focal point like KG, but certainly a focal point like a Jeff Green of the Thunder or a Mike Conley of the Grizzlies.
I'm not sure where you're going with this
The Green/Perkins trade was a crappy trade for Boston because Green never built on his early production and demonstrated he is not good. Unless you think Derrick Williams will suck, then I don’t see how this is relevant.
I am not going anywhere...my point is that evaluating
talent is hard…and sometimes it is wrong…so by default, somewhat things that can’t be taught or don’t require evaluation (in this case, size) should be valued highly. Potential is good, but it is still an art.
I just used Green as an example of someone whose evaluation didn’t pan out as expected (not just yours) because of the similarity to Williams in terms of position/size/draft expectations.
Nothing more than that…the quote was just pointing you to my reference.
I see absolutely no similarity between Green and Williams, other than both were forwards
The issue with Green was he wasn’t a great scorer. The issue with Williams has nothing to do with his offense.
Mike, I am not comparing the two players.
I am talking about the difference between an evaluation vs. a known commodity (size). Sometimes evaluations are right, sometimes they are wrong, but we should be receiving a premium for a scarce resource (7’2" athletic NBA center).
Again, I am not comparing the two. I am comparing the fact that many GMs evaluation pre-draft wind up not being correct, so we should be using that fact to extract value. I have been consistent in saying that I am not totally against trading McGee. I just want to make sure we get the appropriate value back, and that is not based on what our future line up will be as the primary factor. I want the right value back.
Think how Ernie got Crawford in return for Hinrich. That wasn’t thinking about how he would fit, it was here is what value I need in return for Kirk. Don’t tell me about my needs now. I want the right value.
The reason to accept lower value would be if he is not going to be here in a year or if Wall does not click with him.
The #2 pick IS a premium
What else do you think JVM should command? Assume the #20 is coming back as well.
The reason to accept lower value would be if he is not going to be here in a year or if Wall does not click with him.
I don’t think it’s likely he’ll re-sign with us. And I know it’s been a short time, but I think JVM really grinds Wall’s gears.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jun 11, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
this post doesn't say the 20 is coming back....
Mike is proposing a straight up deal. I think the 20 (I would think something more in the 14-18 range is more appropriate, but that is quibbling) or a vet is the right additional price.
Regarding Wall, if you look at my comments, I have been clear. If Ernie knows McGee doesn’t click with Wall for any reason, we need to do this deal in a heartbeat or shorter. That is actually my deciding factor.
I feel JVM was raw coming out of college and these past three years makes up ground. DW is way more advanced than JVM was.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok but they are both sized for their position so it lands a little softly for me
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
see above...I am not comparing them
I am just saying that we are basing our assumed value on expectations…because McGee has a known commodity, size, that should be given a premium. There is a reason he is mentioned in the same breath as Gasol and Ellis in terms of need for Minnesota.
My point on Green is that he was considered a top 5 and still hasn’t panned out. That just shows the difficulty with pre-draft evaluations. Thus we need to weight value accordingly.
6th pick would be your center
And I’d say go for Biyombo or Valanciunas. As both will be better defensively than Kanter. Take Marshon Brooks with the 18th pick. Heck maybe even trade the 6th pick with Charlotte for the 9th and 19th, then walk away with Valanciunas or Biyombo, Brooks and Markief Morris. (And hope for Tyler Honeycutt in the early second round)
So we trade a center and then draft another one?
Biyombo who will give you the same things McGee will minus the offensive side of the ball?
and comes 5mm per season cheaper
and that is precisely why you make the trade
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Another good question:
Do we think McGee is or will be significantly better than Biyombo or Valanciunas? At dunking, yes. But for averall value to the team? Probably not, and if so, only marginal. So we could effectively replace him with someone almost just as good (and in Biyombo’s case probably better defensively right off the bat), and add a dynamic scoring big.
I think he is and will be much better than either
which is probably where much of this debate really exists, how good is he actually
going by david thorpe's analysis
here, but it’s insider: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/blog?name=nba_draft&id=6644358
I think McGee is good. I’d love to keep him instead of drafting Biyombo or Valanciunas based on potential. But if if you also give me the best player in the draft along with one of those two, I think that tilts the scales.
Biyombo is already a much better defender than McGee
And demonstrated his acumen in the 2nd best league in the world. His understanding of defense is way stronger than McGee.
No he isn't.
He has proven anything…one triple double in the Nike Hoops Summit. That’s it.
JaVale got a triple double with blocks as well in the best league in the world.
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
by Krobify on Jun 11, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Biyonbo does ONE thing!!!!!!!!!!
He is Adonal Foyle. That’s it. You have a guy now who does that and more. Besides, if my prayers are answered, then D. Williams will be gone #1 overall, which he is currently be projected to do on a number of updated mocks.
Foyle with athleticism.
if Foyle actually was athletic while in the league he wouldn’t be used as a negative. But he was a slow footed guy who could still block shots good while being a couple inches short for a Center.
Let's compare JaVale's ceiling to Biyombo.
Better yet….let’s compare Derrik Williams ceiling to Terrange Jones, Harrison Barnes, Perry, etc. We can have Williams or better next year and!!!! keep McGee.
That's not at all true
McGee is a restricted free agent. We could not have him at all next season. There’s also no promise we’ll end up in a position to take Barnes or Perry. Additionally, Williams is a significantly better prospect than Terrance Jones. Williams was also ahead of Barnes and Perry in most early mock drafts.
I’m not anti-McGee. I just think we should be realistic. He may become an all-star, but he may never be better than an average center. The latter is more likely than the former. Is that amount of upside worth passing up the no. 2 overall pick? No. It’s not even close.
Plus
I don’t think people are actually wrapping their mind around the very possible, and I think likely, scenario that we pass on acquiring Derrick Williams and next summer, McGee leaves for the absurd contract that he’s gonna get offered by someone.
So by the beginning of the 2012 season, we have neither Derrick Williams or McGee on the roster.
Better question....would Wall want to give up McGee?
That should be the primary concern here. We need weapons for him and offensively (around the basket) JaVale is a threat with Wall at the point. I think when he scored his 20+ points most of that was offensive clean up.
as I said above, it is quite possible he wants McGee out
Another factor is I hope Ernie has a good feel for whether McGee is planning on staying here or wants to go west. That is another key factor in all of this.
If we do trade McGee for #2...
…and Cleveland take Williams #1, do we end up getting Kanter for the #2?
Just wondering.
"McGee is running the transition? I'll stop him..." - James Jones
You don't do the deal
Until the Timberwolves are on the clock….
Make the deal now – but it would be contingent on Williams being available to draft at #2….. So if Williams is not on the board, the deal is off…
But if I’m Minnesota, I make TWO deals… One with the Wizards if Williams is available…. and a second deal with another team that wants Kyrie Irving…
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I want to see how the Wall-McGee pick and roll looks like next fall.
After Wall builds up his jumper.
No trade now.
Very, very nice, but a devastating 1-5 pick and roll is even nicer.
Very few PFs can hedge a screen and stay with Wall. Zero Cs can.
Zero.
Completely unstoppable.
Sweeeeeet.
Trade Blatche
Or play him at center until one of the rookies gets better. Or mix him into the rotation. Play Williams at 3 and Blatche at the 4 and a rook at the 5 and then go small with booker nad williams at the 3 and 4 and blatche at 5, etc.
But honestly, Blatche at this point is a potential trade asset. maybe for a solid 2 or wing? or a young backup pg?
Did you read the post?
For the Wizards, this Williams-for-McGee offer, if there, is their chance to truly replicate the Thunder. Now, granted, if the Wizards do that, they must then trade Blatche for anything (even an Arenas-like return) and rethink the role of Young in their future. You can’t deal McGee, who has the most upside of all the Holdover Three, and then keep the other two.
by Mike Prada on Jun 10, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
that isn't really part of the equation..Blatche is not part
of the Wizards long term plans…at least I hope not…
So what
I actually think he’ll be better at PF. I like the idea of him and Booker at the forward spots, both playing either type depending on the opposing team.
What we are really trading
Really we are taking Kawhi Leonard or Vesely at 6th or we are trading McGee and getting Williams and Biyombo or Valanciunas.
Which combo sounds better to people?
my only problem with williams is his attitude. I dont like when a guy comes in saying he could fill in for lebron in cleveland
by hairlesschewbacca on Jun 10, 2011 5:33 PM EDT reply actions
I like that
And lets remember that he didn’t say he would be as good as Lebron. He specifically said he couldn’t and wouldn’t wear number 23. He meant as a leader and being the go-to guy.
What's wrong with that??
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
He also may not be
We know one of the other two guys will. And we only make the trade if Williams is there at the two.
Also, I’m not sold on Kanter. He’s done nothing in a few years now. Also teams seem to be souring on him too. Must be a reason for that.
But even if I was sold on him, we can’t guarantee he’ll be there at 6. The trade guarantees players.
Or if you like, you can have Williams AND Kanter if he falls to the 6th.
Nothing keeping Ernie from making TWO trades
Trade McGee to the Timberwolves for the 2nd pick
Take on Okur’s salary and the 3rd and 12th picks for the 6th and 18th picks.
With #2 Draft Williams
With #3 Draft Kanter
With #12 Draft Alec Burkes or Chris Singleton
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
monster idea- love it
Burkes is a potential near all-star too
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
dude- i would worry about that if if happened.
Burks will be a playmaker and Young is a shooter and most likely the better defender. I think it depended on the matchup and what gives us the best chance to win.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
This makes too much sense, Rook. Grunfield doesn’t like making moves that make sense.
"No disrespect to Patrick Peterson and Prince Amukamara, but I just think I have better cover skills. They get tested a lot, and that’s for a reason. The other team sees something in their game that they want to attack, and me playing in the same league as Prince, we played the same teams and they didn’t attack me the same. So why does that happen?" - CB Jimmy Smith
May we have TOO much youth in this scenario?
With Wall, Crawford, Booker, Seraphin, Williams, Kanter, Burkes/Singleton — none having more than a single season’s experience?
And then next year’s lotto pick to boot
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 10, 2011 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Well - I'd rather have TOO much talent, and TOO much youth
than the other way around….
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Naturally, but don't we need to strike an even balance?
Hell, even Kahn recognizes the need to counter promising youth with talented vets
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 10, 2011 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Kahn and the Twolves
have been “rebuilding” since 2007
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
it is seven of fifteen slots. plenty of room for real vets
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
But in terms of meaningful court time
They’d be taking up nearly all of the minutes. The only other two, Nick Young and Rashard Lewis?
Wouldn’t Flip’s head explode?
Wouldn’t we just essentially be an elite college team playing against pro teams?
How long would it take for this team to altogether “get it?”
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 10, 2011 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Based on the Thunder blueprint
3 years
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Yes, Love the idea
We can all dream 8 ).
I’ll be happy just getting Kanter or Williams.
Has anything like this ever happened before?
A team acquiring two top 5 draft picks via trade after the draft lottery.
The Utah Jazz trade is what seems particularly farfetched. When its the Wizards expiring contract, we treat it as an asset in the fantasy GM discussions. Now that its the Jazz expiring contract, its worth dropping back from 3&12 to 6&18? Surely the Jazz would either refuse such a trade altogether or find another team willing to present a more generous incarnation of it..
by Emmet O'Neal on Jun 12, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
obviously
in a different year, and if there were no threat of a hard salary cap – an expiring contract might be expected to bring an asset back….
However, when the new CBA is signed, there will most likely be some kind of hard cap – and even if there is a one-time amnesty that allows teams to deduct ONE player’s salary from the books – it would be foolish for the Jazz to use that deduction for Okur’s 10.8 Million salary… it would be more advantageous to deduct Al Jefferson’s salary (2-years , 29 million)
And so YES – the Jazz who have 8 players under contract for $52 Million – and still need to re-sign Kirilenko and at least 4 more players to round out their roster – they may very well look upon getting $11 Million in cap relief as a POSITIVE – even worth moving down a couple picks…. ESPECIALLY if they think they can still get their guy at 6….
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Utah wont be able to help themselves, will draft Vesely and Kanter will be there at 6th
The jazz cant pass on a hyped-up white player, they just cant
by DCrez on Jun 10, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol
I am sure he will fit in wherever he goes. He is a very likable person
by les boulez bomber on Jun 10, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
They're hearts go with Jimmer
Everything else is just gravy.
McGee – his ceiling is so amazingly high. Dwight Howard high. I’m not sure this is a player one would want to move so easily. Even at worst I see him as a Tyson Chandler… which is not exactly problematic either.
Yes he’s got some serious learning to do… but all the tools are there. All he needs is someone (whether a player coach… like Bynum and Dwight have… and a floor general) to help him along.
Williams – alot of potential but what can one make of him? Hasn’t yet competed at the NBA level in any form, and is definetely in the tweener category. Thats not necessarily a bad thing, but there aren’t alot of examples of it being a good thing.
Add the weakness of the draft (which more or less moved Williams from outside the 5 spot to the 2 spot) and rarity of a good C… and I just don’t see this being a good trade.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 10, 2011 7:56 PM EDT reply actions
has anyone compared Derrick Williams to
Josh Smith? Their builds/games seem similar.
Josh Smith's game is hurt by Josh Smith...
Williams doesn’t seem to have screws loose.
I like McGee more then Williams
but being that McGee will up for a new contract next year is a big crossroad for the Wiz. If he starts the whole year then I think he will be demanding money that would consider him to be our center for the John Wall era, but with Williams we’d have more time to really fill out the pieces of the puzzle. I’m not completely sold on the idea yet, but if the trade becomes a reality I like it for that reasoning.
I stopped reading at "it's safe to say McGee won't be a future star"
A 23 year old center in his 4th year (after only getting starter minutes, playing against actual starters for A SINGLE season), is not going to be a star.
Is it safe to say that?
It is?
So, so, so, SO many players are running through my head right now that showed less promise than JaVale in their first three years but turned into all star level players.
This really would be a terrible trade. I could live with it, because derrick williams will be a good player in this league, but javale could be a dominant center. As in, a strong, powerful center. He keeps gaining muscle every season, and it’s getting to the point where he’ll be strong enough -in conjunction with his crazy length and jumping ability – to just dunk on people on the block.
A la Dwight Howard.
On tue defensive end,
by DCeee on Jun 10, 2011 8:45 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
On the defensive end**….say what you want about the goaltending, bit there were multiple games where JaVale completely changed the entire game because of his crazy shot blocking ability.
I don’t think ernie bites on this one, but I guess we’ll see.
by DCeee on Jun 10, 2011 8:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Not many . . .
Tyson Chandler dropping 23 points, Jason Smith dropping a career high 20 points on 9-11 shooting (Marc Gasol did the same the previous year),, Lopez/Gortat dropping 22 points on 14 shot attempts; Greg Monroe 22 points on 13 shot attempts in a late season game. Teams were also killing the Wizards on the defensive boards, because of the ease with which opponents either pushed or drew McGee out of position.
He gives opponents more trouble on the offensive end — his defensive play against Chicago was solid (in the game that Tim Thomas started). But against the better NBA centers especially (Dwight Howard 32 pts on 12-15 shooting; 12-19 and 32 pts in another game) there’s not even a chance. Of course that’s measured against the league’s best, but even against the next tier of NBA centers, on defense he’s nothing special.
by Vegas010 on Jun 11, 2011 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dwight Howard was already much more advanced . . .
as an 19 year old rookie than McGee is as a 22+ year old 3rd year NBA player. Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Shaq — genuine stars — all made their presence known in year one. KG by year two was already well ahead of where McGee is right now.
A genuine star like Blake Griffin missed his entire rookie season and showed that he belongs in year one.
McGee will never be that kind of star.
Out of his draft class, a guy like DeAndre Jordan who was picked after McGee is arguably a better all-around player at this point in his career (same age too and similar circumstances in terms of game experience). He’s more limited offensively, but defensively he’s better.
Three years in there’s enough evidence to see that McGee is pretty satisfied just being in the league and getting a chance to participate in dunk contests. I don’t see enough evidence to suggest that he’s committed to becoming a star player. Maybe we’ll see a little something extra in the contract year, but mentally I don’t think he has the hunger or the kind commitment that’s required to becoming an elite NBA player. I don’t get the sense that losses matter to him in the same way that they do to big time players. If “star” player is the measure, he’s already well-behind the curve. He may have what it takes to be a good NBA starter though with a lot of work. If he’s complacent though he won’t be much more than a bench or energy guy on a good team. He could be a starter a few .500 or below teams though. That seems like the most likely outcome right now. Hopefully, he proves me wrong — or the Wizards can move him for some value.
by Vegas010 on Jun 11, 2011 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
ever is a long time
but every season that passes lessens that likelihood. great post- he has not shown the heart of a champion yet. but he could develop into a contributor on a championship team- maybe even a significant one. I think his time has passed to do it for us right now- maybe later
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
DeAndre Jordan arguably regressed each year while Mcgee has gotten better.
Jordan’s reb rates have gone down every year while Mcgee’s have gone up. And Jordan is an extremely limited offensive player while Mcgee is much better on that end. Plus Mcgee doesnt have the luxury of playing next to Blake Griffin.. Jordan is also career 41%FT shooter while Mcgee is at 62%. To say Jordan is a better overall player is really overvaluing other teams guys vs our own IMHO
Almost no one is making the argument . . .
that Jordan regressed this year — for good reason.
Just looking at Jordan’s stats in the abstract don’t tell the story. The guy playing next to him this year, didn’t play next to him last year, and that guy (Blake Griffin) finished 4th in the league in rebounding.
The guy playing next to McGee wasn’t collecting 12+ rebounds a game (e.g. with 4 to 6 more rebounding opportunities a game McGee didn’t even convert an extra 1 compared to Jordan). It’s a limited sample, but in the one game where the two faced off this year, Jordan dominated McGee. If Jordan had converted a higher percentage of his free throws, it would have been an even nastier beat-down. Free throw shooting is the one area that is probably the easiest thing to improve if a player is willing to invest the time in getting better.
Having said that, at this point in their careers, I think it’s still a close call, depending a bit on fit. The ideal situation is to have a center who dominates on both ends, but if I was forced to choose, I’d much rather have a very good to great defensive player who is limited offensively, than the reverse. I can think of a bunch of teams who have done very well in the playoffs with a one-dimensional, strong defensive center (one right now with Dallas in Tyson Chandler, Ben Wallace is another case), but it’s hard to think of the reverse case where a more finesse type center with average to below average defensive skills took a team into the championship round. Of course, maybe McGee puts on another 15-20 lbs of muscle over the next few years, learns better defensive positioning, makes smarter reads on defense, and this whole discussion becomes moot. On the other hand, the main criticisms of DeAndre Jordan have never been with his athleticism and physical ability either.
Remember how Javale dominated Deandre in SL?
He was way ahead of him at that point imo. Deandre overtook him and never looked back. Right now, imo, Jordan is the better team player.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 12, 2011 4:53 AM EDT up reply actions
It will be much easier for Mcgee to improve defensively than for Jordan to gain offensive skill.
The defensive oriented Cs you are describing are available in abundance these days it seems, if you expect no offense from your 5 then there are plenty of guys available to fill the position
Moot point?
I’m curious if anybody saw this or no one source/info for which Kyle from Truth About It speaks: “@Truth_About_It #Wizards fans thinking about a potential JaVale McGee for #2 pick swap? Stop, I’ve been informed; T-Wolves are a no-go on that move.”
Follow me on Twitter @WorldWiEdWard
by WorldWiEdWard on Jun 10, 2011 9:05 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
no one = know the
Sorry
Follow me on Twitter @WorldWiEdWard
by WorldWiEdWard on Jun 10, 2011 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
link?
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
http://twitter.com/Truth_About_It/status/79304495921758208
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
There will not be a trade before draft night and no reason to tip your hat beforehand.
I feel it IS a moot point. I am sure we could find “sources” in the Wiz organization that would say the same thing from our POV.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Marginal improvement
Williams for McGee would only be a marginal improvement. Over the next two years,
the Wiz need to add a quality 3 and 4 — without gutting the core.
I’d buy down Lewis’ contract and trade him in an attempt to get Kantor.
I’d trade the 6th pick for Toronto’s pick next year.
The Wiz need to swing for the fences, not make marginal improvements.
McGee may be gone soon, but I don't see Grunfeld trading Blatche now.
From what we’ve heard, the Wizards aren’t aggressively pursuing anyone. I could be wrong, but that seems to be Ernie’s m.o. : he sells high for the players other teams show the most interest in. I can’t imagine many teams craving Blatche at the present time. I do think Dray will be gone by the next trade deadline (which hopefully won’t be in 2013). I imagine it would be easier to trade Andray for a draft pick when the lottery is further off, when teams are more interested in the here & now. Considering how much better the 2012 draft choices will be, it seems like a good idea.
I going to trade a solid 10pt 10reb 2.4blks 7footer
Who is just barely touching his potential and may develop into a top 5 center if he gets the proper coaching for a want-to-be undersized college tweener….NOT!!!! Glad EG is making the decisions on the Wizards personnel movers. No offense. You can write paragraph on top of each other but 1) McGee is a proven and developing force in the league and Williams is just a prospect 2) NEVER trade big for small.
All due respect
You must not have thoroughly read through the post. You’re entitled to your opinion, but you mention statements Mike already put to bed with numbers (Tweener thing and JaVale being a “force”). Also, labeling Derrick Williams “just a prospect” may be selling him just a little short…
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
by qthaballa on Jun 11, 2011 4:04 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
From ESPN 6-12-2011
Derrick Williams: Williams is the classic tweener who keeps telling people he is a 3, when all he has ever played is the 4. If we are going to judge Williams as a 3, then his ballhandling is suspect, most of his jumpers came on spot-ups while being guarded by college big men, and he has never guarded on the perimeter.
One high-level NBA team executive told me after reading my Big Board that Williams “might not even really be a starter in the league, because he has no position and no real low-post game.” All reports are that he is a fantastic person with a solid work ethic, but unless his team is committed to playing fast and playing with a pass-first point guard (as Cleveland and Minnesota likely would), Williams might get lost in half-court sets where his lack of defined skill becomes apparent. By Doug Gottlieb
Prada doesnt agree but this is essentially why I am not as high as others on him
I´m not sure he guards 3´s consistently and while he can surely guard 4´s like Amir Johnson or maybe even Blake Griffin, how is he guarding taller, skilled 4´s with a jumper? Ofcourse nobody is shutting down Dirk but I think Blatche will also abuse him for example.
On offense his pick & pop game is going to be effective in the half court, I have no doubt about that and I think he makes for a great highlight reel in transition with Wall but if he has to take more that 2 dribbles and there is no room for a quick power move, he is not gonna be effective.
He can be a very good player in this league no doubt, but I doubt he will be a star that can consistently carry a team offensively and defensively he is not going to make a big difference for your team
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 12, 2011 5:04 AM EDT up reply actions
At that's why I don't do the trade
JaVale has established himself, at this moment, a 10pt-10rb-2+blks guy and still developing. One of his major problems is a head coach that doesn’t have a staff that is willing or able to work with him one-on-one to develop post skills needed to take his game to the next level. IMO JaVale has shown he is willing to work hard and learn and has developed his skill-set, though slowly, each year. Trade AB and throw in NY if you have to, but I feel we take a major gamble if we go JM for Williams, and I also feel Williams is not a sure thing, not even sure to measure up to JaVale’s 10pts-10rbs-2+blks per game status right now. Not putting anyone down about their opinion, just don’t see the Williams = superstar or star thing. And finally the last time Wizards traded big for small, Wizards got screwed!
Actually....
We traded Kwame Brown for Caron Bulter and won huge. I know the ghost of Richmond is hard to eliminate, but we have traded big for small and come out ahead.
by GJennings on Jun 12, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Kwame's 3rd year too . . .
was about as good as Javale’s stats wise. Not to say that McGee is going to end up like Kwame Brown, but there are no guarantees.
So far McGee’s established himself as a quality energy guy and potential back-up. At this stage in his development he would not be starting on a good team. He’s not Kwame Brown, and I don’t think he’ll regress like Kwame did in year four, but I do think he’s locked himself in as a core part of the team’s future either.
What ?!?!???!
10pt-10rb-2
When has JaVale ever averaged 10 points AND 10 rebounds?
You must be rounding up…. because last year JaVale only averaged 8 rebounds… and that was the highest average of his career…
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
If he were ACTUALLY averaging 10 rebounds per game, I’d be MUCH more hesitant to trade him…. and I’d probably be in the “JaVale is a core piece” camp…
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
So you don't think he'll make that transition next year?
Given his yearly (if not monthly) progress, particularly in the last few months of the season?
by Max Zamphirescu on Jun 12, 2011 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not hard to envision . . .
McGee getting two extra rebounds a game. It’s just a question of adding some more muscle and making smarter decisions on defense. It’s not that unusual to see front point players increase their rebounding totals. Figure too that Kevin Love increased his rebound total by 4 a game this season— from an already respectable 11 a game to a ridiculous 15+. The higher the average the harder it gets to add more rebounds, because the opportunities aren’t there. At 8 a game though there are plenty of opportunities.
10-10-2 numbers were Haywood’s totals last year before the trade. It’s entirely reasonable to think that McGee will get to that level earlier than Haywood — probably in the next couple years. Those are respectable numbers for a starting NBA center, but they aren’t elite or near-elite numbers.
If there was a reasonable expectation that McGee would be a 16-12-2 guy in the next few years — basically a borderline All-Star — sometime in the next few years — and if he got those 16 points on reasonable number of shooting attempts with a good assist to turnover ratio — then I don’t think you pull the trigger. If he projects as a 10-10-2 guy then it makes more sense to consider rolling the dice if the right deal comes along.
I dont agree with that assessment but
unless his team is committed to playing fast and playing with a pass-first point guard
that is WAS
by les boulez bomber on Jun 12, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly the thought I had
Sounds like Wall is his ideal partner.
That High-Level Excecutive is a bit out there
Williams was, looking just at the stats, one of the most efficient players in college. He was one of the most efficient players in isolation. While that doesn’t make NBA success a given, it’s a good sign in his favor.
I’m wondering if that high-level NBA GM is trying to push Williams draft stock down.
My concern with Williams is whether he has the lateral quickness to guard 3 and is wiling to develop a post-up game. That part of the commentary did make me a bit nervous. If he does both of those things, he’ll be a fantastic 3, who can post up smaller defenders. If he doesn’t he’ll be a great, but not not tier 4. I’d be willing to take that gamble for McGee.
stats aren't everything...
McGee gambles on a lot of blocked shots, many of which end up with him leaving his man completely unguarded. He is NOT a good defensive player at all. I can’t believe people are actually saying he has “Dwight Howard” potential…do you know how good Dwight Howard was after 4 years? and that was coming straight out of HS no college inbetween. You guys need to take off your homer glasses, it is the perfect time to sell high on Javale. we aren’t talking about giving him away for pennies, we are talking about the 2nd overall pick here.
by Jeremiah Hewitt on Jun 11, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just going to say, Fantastic post, with a capital F
I was firmly on the fence after exploring each side and now I also believe a McGee-Williams swap should definitely be a go on the Wizards end of things.
An underrated point was that McGee will be a RFA and you have to pay your guys. We all know the Wiz don’t have the most mature group of players and we also don’t want to overpay anyone. So what happens when its McGee’s turn and he sees what Blatche got and is unhappy with what he ends up getting paid because his self-worth is very high?
As tough as it would be to lose McGee:
2-Derrick Williams
6-Enes Kanter/Kawhi Leonard/Chris Singleton/Markieff Morris
18-Potential baby Kobe aka Marshawn Brooks
34-Nolan Smith
Pretty much impossible to pass up. Hopefully we hear more about this in the coming days.
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
by qthaballa on Jun 11, 2011 3:59 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Javale McGee for Derrick Williams
Derrick Williams has great possibilities but I would never recommend the Wizards considering such a trade. Skills like Javale’s are rare, they need to be developed. The Wizards need to hire a big man coach that has played in the NBA. Javale needs to contract a big man coach on his own and write it off as a business expense. If we the Wizards could get Williams without giving up much besides cash, that would be a great thing.
Javale is the most talented big man/center, and has the most potential of any center the Bullets/Wizards have ever had. He’s just immature and needs to get his head into the game, and understand how he can get the most out of his talent, and serve his team best. To even consider getting rid of him at this point, in my opinion would be STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Peace.
born a hoya
Javale McGee for Derrick Rose ---wrong attribution
That comment came from Zbopsports, and is my first comment on BulletsForever.
Peace.
born a hoya
by born a hoya on Jun 11, 2011 5:44 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
well then, you get an auto rec from me
Welcome!
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 11, 2011 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Javale McGee a Key part of Championship Game
A closer look at Dallas rise to the championship level highlights Chandler as defensive stopper and enabler that makes everyone else better on defense.
While Derrick Williams reminds me of Paul Pierce of Boston, but I would not trade Javale for him. However, I would do everything possible for getting Derrick Williams since he is an ideal complementary all star offensive player that our PG Wall requires.
Wall and Javale and next year #1 are untouchables as far as I am concerned.
I am for packaging other pieces such as Blatch, young (if tradable), #6, #18, 2nd rd this year, 2nd rd next year, crawford, Booker, Sepahin – any combination of these assets that will work and move up to #2 to pick up Williams. I do believe a deal here that could include a third party team is available for making.
The problem is
Minnesota has already stated they want a veteran big man – and that means Center, since their best player (Kevin Love) plays PF…
The Wizards have TWO veteran big men… Andray Blatche, who has ZERO trade value, especially for the Minnesota Timberwolves….. and JaVale McGee – who DOES have trade value, especially for the Minnesota Timberwolves…
So your idea to “package” additional draft picks (that Minnesota DOESN’T want), or other players (that Minnesota DOESN’T want) has no legs….
As for involving a third team – those kind of trades are very, very complicated and almost never come to fruition. But if you have a specific trade in mind, I’m all ears.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Different mentalities . . .
Chandler has always had the mentality of a defensive player. He was OK doing the dirty work. He was more of a knuckle-head in his first few years than McGee and had more injury issues, but he also was more of a blue-collar player.
McGee seems to be satisfied getting a couple highlight reel plays even if the multiple takes cost the team possessions and defensive stops. He’s got creative intelligence but he’s not a very analytical player (he doesn’t seem like the kind of player who spends a lot of time studying game film, or trying to master his position within the team concept).
Chandler has been a great fit for a team like Dallas because of the other pieces on the roster. He’s getting the team extra possessions on offense, he has the occasional dunk, and on defense he’s a presence in the paint. He doesn’t run away from the bigger NBA centers.
The Dallas case also demonstrates that it’s possible to find key pieces through trades and free agency. You don’t start with a piece like Chandler — he’s been more of the third or fourth part for teams. McGee might follow a similar path in another 3 to 5 years. He’s already a pretty good offensive center, but his defense is in the bottom half of the league. It’s very hard to be a good defensive team if a team’s starting center is a below average defender. He may be second in blocks, but he ranks 39th in defensive rebounds, which means that the team gives opponents second chance opportunities. It’s not one of those cases either where his numbers are low because another teammate is killing on the boards. He and Blatche both average numbers that would be considered good if the two played SF.
He's 16th in DefRebs amongst Centers, shouldnt that be the comparison?
He’s just ahead of Marc Gasol in that stat, just about tied with Roy Hibbert. Ahead of DeAndre Jordan, Brook Lopez, and some other “name” guys. Surely he has to get better…but he’s gotten better each season and after his first year as a starter doesnt seem unreasonable to think more improvement is coming. Also of note, there is no C in the league getting more DRebs than Javale who is also younger than him. That’s promising I would think?
by DCrez on Jun 11, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
That's one comparison . . .
I’d also make an adjustment for opportunities. If a guy plays center on a team that doesn’t get a lot of defensive rebounds to begin with, then it’s a pretty big indictment of the center. If the guy plays next to another front court player who does dominate the boards, that opens the door to different set of questions (e.g. maybe the player isn’t a stat hog; maybe he’s not as good a rebounder as his teammate, but still might be the best rebounder on almost any other team, etc, etc).
It’s damning the McGee with faint praise to insist that he be put him in the same conversation as Roy Hibbert, Marc Gasol, Jordan, or Brook Lopez. I actually think that is maybe the right conversation to have though — it’s not Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, etc.
Are you expecting Derrick Williams to be as good as Lebron?
Because that’s the equivalent of Dwight Howard comparisons for Mcgee as in there is no point in making them
That's not the debate in my mind . . .
the question isn’t whether McGee will become Howard (he won’t), or whether Williams will become LeBron (he won’t).
The question is whether Williams will be a better player at PF than McGee is likely to be at Center. There’s also a question about need and fit with John Wall.
Williams made a big jump this year and while I wouldn’t project him as an elite player, it’s not too hard to envision him in an All-Star game or two (outside of the rookie challenge). In McGee’s case, I have a harder time envisioning him at an All-Star game outside of the dunk contest. He has such a long way to go before he’s likely to be talked about as one of the leagues top centers never mind the best player at his position (which won’t happen as long as Dwight Howard is in the league).
also he has a higher DRR than MGasol, DeAndre Jordan, Hibbert, Nene
David Lee, both Lopez’, and a few others. Now again, he’s gotta get better….but again there’s no one above him on the list who is younger than he is. To me that is a glass half-full
by DCrez on Jun 11, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
and one more thing, i think you are hitting on possibly the key issue re: Javale
he’s already a pretty good offensive player and that’s where the sky really could be the limit for him. We’ve all seen how he can execute some fairly basic moves in almost unblockable fashion, we know it’s there.
But if Flip et al want to make him a defense first player at all times and try to create the bulk of all our offense on the perimeter…then you make the trade for Derrick Williams. Mcgee’s potential will only be reached when he plays defense correctly of course but also receives a large amount of touches in the post, paint, 10ft out, wherever. If he’s never conceived to be a large part of the offense…might as well trade him because you’re only scratching the surface of the player he might be
by DCrez on Jun 11, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He's still got potential . . .
that much I’ll definitely grant.
There aren’t many 7 footers to begin with, and there are even fewer 7 footers with his leaping ability, coordination, wingspan, and all-around athleticism.
I could see a situation where McGee is getting 10-11 shot attempts — if he makes better use of the possessions and improves his assist to turnover ratio. Even if he just has a Greg Monroe 1 to 1 ratio that would be a noteworthy improvement.
I don’t see him as the kind of low-post player like “Superman” or Shaq where teams try to run their offense through that player — although I worry a bit that that might be how he sees himself.
It’s more a case where he’ll need his perimeter guys to open opportunities up for him, rather than the other way around. He could develop into a nice 3rd option, or a great 4th option. Someone else on the team will likely be drawing the double and triple teams on a regular basis.
Offensively, he’s already great in transition (when the ball isn’t in his hands).
He’s also a good player to have for second chance attempts and offensive put backs.
There are things he does well, no doubt. But I don’t see him as an irreplaceable part of the team’s core at this point.
There is Canter the Turkish Center
I agree that any deal with Minnesota needs to deliver them a center. But that center could be from DRAFT. Canter will most likely be taken at 4th or 6th spot. Canter/Love combination will be something enticing for Minnesota.
Both #3 and #5 spot teams require a PG, since PG will most likely be available at 6th (assuming that Canter will be taken prior to them), therefore a trade up from #6 is all it is needed.
#6, #34 plus Crawford/Booker for #3 or #5.
Blatch, #18 plus eating Detroit’s shooting guard contract for #8 of Detroit and using that to move up. I believe we have budget flexibility for this. (most likely the Orlando center will not be coming to washington at end of 2012, so we can use our budget flexibility now)
they wont trade the #2 pick if they want Kanter
Both Utah and Toronto could use a center or PG. I dont feel it is as clear cut as they take a PG. Knight is top five. I dont know about Kemba. He played off the ball alot and that is a concern for some teams.
Do you really think we would trade for Rip with Flip as coach?
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Kanter + Extras
Kanter may be a reach at 2. To get most of #2 pick you trade down get Kanter and some other pieces.
Also one can always buy out Rip. Management can demonstrate their will to create a championship team. This will be an excellent way to demonstrate their commitment.
by PointCenter on Jun 11, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
But he is not a reach if you have the #2, you want him and there is a chance he could go #3, which is possible. UTAH gave him one of the longest looks so far.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Obviously, the more picks, the better. I like buying out Rip to draft Burks.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I am not on the fence on this issue.
I feel very strongly about it.
It’s just that I feel very strongly each different way each different day.
by MR on Jun 11, 2011 9:29 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Keep Javale
We’re rebuilding.
We’re not in the playoffs next year(if there is a next year).
When you rebuild you must have patience.
You can’t pour quick grow on someone like Javale.
It takes time.
And IF the time comes in the next year or 2 we will be set at center when the rebuild is nearing its end.
If Javale was in the draft this year we’d be doing evrything to try to figger out how to get him.
by VBfan on Jun 11, 2011 9:51 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Mcgee would the lock #1 pick in the draft this year
if he hadnt played in 2yrs and only showed up at the combine, or was playing somewhere east of bucharest in games no one had actually watched.
You mean rookie McGee or today´s McGee
I don´t think rookie McGee would go as high as # 1, I think he would be in a tier with Biyombo: Intriguing potential but very raw. Today´s McGee has proven he is a player in this league and still has a lot of room to grow. This McGee would go # 1 no doubt but his mentality puts a serious ceiling on his room to grow imho.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 12, 2011 5:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Todays Javale
Yeah rookie Javale would be 6 to 10 pick this year. So I don’t see trading todays JM for rookie anybody in this draft.
This JaVale would be a late 1st
Cause he’d be 23. Can’t consider his development without the perspective of age. At 23, DW might be an All-Star.
Vesely doesn't completely suck
He’s atheletic and pretty quick but also poor handle, inconsistant, bean pole, raw. In a weak draft his potential makes him extra intruiging.
In a normal draft, one where projected top 5/top10 picks stay in it, Vesely would have been a late lottery pick or lower.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 13, 2011 5:39 AM EDT up reply actions
So, considering this...
Best Case first round:
1. Trade Javale for Second pick, get Williams, he lives up to all star potential
2. Draft Kanter at 6, he lives up to our Expectations
3. Draft Singleton at 18, He becomes great defender
Worst Case first round
1. Both Kanter and Williams gone, we are forced to take a Euro who is a complete bust
2. Draft Player at 18 who turns out to be nothing much of an nba player
let’s hope that first one can work out
Kinda
But I doubt Singleton is around at 18. Either way, unless the Wizards complete drop the ball, they should definitely get some great value at 18, I’m sure of that. I have no idea what they’d do with the 6th if they opt not to trade.
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
Theory
The best way to win it all is to be dominant in some aspect of the game. Chances aren’t great, but a Wall-McGee pick and roll could be dominant. Derrick Williams will good, but he’s never going to be dominant.
He could be more dominant than McGee with Wall in the PNR/PNP. McGee cant shoot and will take YEARS to hit an outside shot like Williams can today.
Ok pick and pop, pick and roll…they are options off the same basic play. Williams offers the flexibility to do both. And JVM does not.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't understand why you keep saying this
Williams was the best college roller and spot-up shooter for his position.
by Mike Prada on Jun 11, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A 1-5 pick and roll is different from any other combination
PGs and Cs are just so incredibly different from each other. Far beyond any other combination of players, a great 1-5 pick and roll has the potential to be completely unstoppable. Dominating. As in Shaq, in his prime, type of unstoppable.
The greatest PnR we’ve ever seen, Stockton-Malone, was really, really, really good. But it could be stopped (or at least slowed down enough). Put MJ on Stock, Rodman on the Mailman. There’s enough size, quickness, and length for the D to hold. But if instead of Karl Malone, it was Stockton to, say, David Robinson, what would the Bulls have done then?
It is a great point to consider but irrelevant to my reasoning stated below. It is not just about potential. It is the cost of that potential and how it affects the franchise going forward.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Cost
There’s a chance for something really, really special here. The odds are slim, but the chance is there. If everything works out perfectly, though, there’s a chance for a frickin’ dynasty. How much is that worth?
around the MLE, not $8-12 million. Unfortunately, there is a salary cap. And who says we can not add him as a free agent like Dallas did with Chandler.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, yeah.
But setting picks is a lot easier when the guard isn’t free to just go under them. I want to see how it looks after Wall puts in a summer of work on his jumper.
One argument against JaVale: the JaVale-Gil and JaVale-Kirk pick and rolls were also awful last year.
On the plus side, the JaVale-Nick pick and roll was looking sort of professional.
PnR
also works much better when the guy setting the screen can EITHER roll to the basket OR pop out for an open jump shot….
1. McGee doesn’t set good screens – he has not done it for 3 years, and I don’t see why he would start now.
2. McGee has a very poor jump shot…. so the Pick-n-Pop option is nil.
All the defense has to do when the Wizards run a PnR with Wall and McGee is for the opposing Center to back up and defend the roll…. and the opposing guard to go under the screen…..
On the other hand, Williams sets ok screens (not perfect, but compared to Blatche or McGee, he’s freaking Karl Malone) – AND he can hit the pick-n-pop jumper – and he was the best roll man in College – a skill that directly translates to the NBA.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
by Rook6980 on Jun 11, 2011 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Adding Derrick Williams and Kanter to our PnR-PnP
Situation could be lovely. With Wall, Crawford, and Young, we have three guards that can be very good at running those plays. And we’d have three guys that can roll or pop in Williams, Kanter, and Blatche. And each one offers skills/attributes that are unique and can attack in different ways.
I agree with both of you
How great would it be if we make this deal and Kanter falls to # 6…. Thát is worth trading McGee for.
Williams & Leonard or Williams & Biyombo isn´t imho
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 12, 2011 5:12 AM EDT up reply actions
from a purely statistical standpoint
chances are that one of either Kanter or Williams is not going to be nearly as good as advertised, just the nature of the draft. Of course some years a bunch of great players are at the top, but for the most part not really. IMHO, the temptation to try and remake the team overnight in what’s considered the weakest draft in years may be forgetting the “patience” part of Ted’s plan
on the other hand
stockpiling “assets” IS a part of Ted’s plan….
And by obtaining TWO top picks this draft certainly ups the odds that at least one will be a very, very good player….. and provides a CHANCE that both could be very good. And let’s not forget that next year the Wizards will (in all likelihood) still be in the Lottery…. with the chance to pick up ANOTHER potential core piece.
After 3+ years, we already know what McGee is…. I think the Wizards have a pretty good idea as to what his ceiling is. Now the question for them is, do they want to PAY him what he’ll be asking (and what some other team may be willing to dish out).?
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
i thought picks devalue as soon as you draft them?
and realistically we are talking about a ‘tweener and a 19yr old who hasnt played in 2yrs and has never faced even ncaa level competition….there’s more chance that NEITHER is an above average player than that BOTH are. Purely statistically speaking I mean
by DCrez on Jun 12, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Kanter and DW are the top 2 talents IMO
And the NBA isn’t like the NFl. The top talent tends to be ood in the league unless there’s injury, maturity issues, etc.
Options. We don't need any stinking options.
We’re talking about a dominant offensive weapon here. We’re going to run the 1-5 pick and roll and there’s nothing you can do about it.
Pick and pop? Why?
Wall’s gonna curl around the pick, JaVale’s going to roll to the basket.
That’s it.
Either someone gets a dunk or Wall gets a clean look on a short jumper with JaVale in prime inside offensive rebounding position.
Show’s over, thanks for coming, you can go home now.
Dominant.
by yop32 on Jun 12, 2011 8:01 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
not so fast
dominant depends on wall (and crawford) developing mastery of the PnR and improving his jumpshot, and it depends on mcgee learning to set good picks and learning how to roll to the basket.
dominant isn’t out of the realm of possibility for sure, but its a long ways off.
JaVale has had three years
to learn to stop rolling early.
And he hasn’t.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
McGee was actually a good shooter in college.
He just stopped working on it. haha
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
Its true, his highlight reels are full of junpers, even college 3's
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 12, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, what happened to that?? haha.
One of his strengths on DraftExpress is his 3-point range!!
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
I like the music to his highlight videos
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Because stating an assertion without evidence twice . . .
makes the assertion twice as true.
Or something like that . . .
Here's some evidence:
(As an aside, they also talk about how defenses have started to “blitz” the PG before the offense can get into the PnR to prevent the offense from using it. That’s why I think passing skills are so important for our future SF. The blitz gets the ball out of Wall’s hands, but gives us a 4-on-3 that we can exploit if we have the passing and playmaking skills to take advantage. One of the reasons I’m not as high on Singleton as most.)
Great article . . .
If the argument is about the use of the pick and roll this is a good argument for how to execute it on both ends of the court.
I don’t see it as strong evidence though in the specific case of Wall and McGee. Rook lays out a good counter-argument in the specific case involving Wall and McGee on the offensive end. On the defensive end, McGee is not great with his reads or his rotations. His athleticism is a bit of a blessing and a curse — it allows him to recover better than most 5s, but it also means that when he makes the wrong read he leaves the lane exposed to an easy high percentage basket. Of course McGee could develop those skills and improve his reads. He’s still young so he probably will. It’s a question of how much he’s likely to improve. That’s the big downside risk in dealing him. Personally, though, if the risk means that the Wizards get to add the #2 pick and Derek Williams, that’s a risk I’d take.
My point is that a great 1-5 pick and roll has the potential to be absolutely unstoppable. It’s a special play, potentially as effective as a freak of nature, once in a century post playing center.
If you were going to create the perfect players to create that perfect weapon, what would they look like?
Ball handler: Incredible ball handling, vision, and passing ability. Blinding speed. Length to see over the defense and find passing lanes. Deadly, soft jumper. Incredible feel for his partner and all the wrinkles of the pick and roll.
Pick setter: Incredible finisher. Soft hands. Ridiculous length, hops, and foot speed. Sets great picks. Incredible feel for his partner and all the wrinkles of the pick and roll.
Wall needs a jumper and experience. McGee needs to learn to set good picks and experience.
Will they get there? I don’t know, probably not. But I do know that nobody in this draft class has even the faintest glimmer of a hope of ever reaching Shaqtastic levels of dominance.
I think it’s worth waiting a bit and seeing how the combo looks after Wall spends a summer working on his jumper.
i think it was Tim Legler pointing out how much better picks were set once Wall
was the full time PG and Kirk/Gil were gone. The point he was making is that picks are as good as the PG using them, and that the picks being set by our frontcourt are fine. And I can tell you from the practices I saw, that instantaneous release from the pick that drives everyone nuts is exactly how they run the drill in practice with the coaches instructing.
Hard to imagine a 1 and 5 combo . . .
that is better than the 1 and 4 combo that the Jazz had with Stockton and Malone. As great as that combo was, it still couldn’t beat the even better MJ Bulls teams with the triangle O and its personnel.
When all is said and done Wall might be in the same conversation as Stockton, but McGee almost certainly won’t be in the same conversation as the great front court players (he’s already well behind the curve compared to the great ones — even at 23). It’s debatable whether he would be the top pick in this draft, let alone the best center prospect. In a draft with a high-end center prospect at the top of the class — like 2007, 2005, or 2004 — he wouldn’t be in the conversation.
Regardless, while his physical ability may be rare and some skills good his overall package — shooting, basketball IQ, and hunger — isn’t. His talent is replaceable. The Wizards might not be able to find his replacement in future drafts, but there are other ways to find a quality 5 — as the Lakers, Dallas, Detroit, Celtics, and Heat have all done in recent years. The big question is whether Williams is likely to be a better 4 than McGee is at the 5. Clearly you are committed to McGee, but if there was a chance to make a move without sacrificing the #6 and #18 picks, I think the Wizards would be hard pressed not to make the move. There are other considerations too including McGee’s contract situation, and Wall’s development time frame.
Good 4s are a dime a dozen
If you (plural) dont think Williams is going to be a great player….not much reason to trade 7’2"ft for 6’8"
Utah never won because Malone/Stockton needed another player. Hornacek was the third best player on that team. Compare that to Rodman or Grant for the Bulls.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 12, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s also worth noting that the PnR is a better play now than it was back then.
Back then, you could hand check guys to knock them off their line. Not anymore.
Also, great PnR combos can also play games with the defensive three second rule. Time your attack just as a defender starts to clear the lane.
I disagree. You do not know today what those players will evolve to become. I say that with zero chance in being wrong!
Talent aside, I feel JVM will resign for about 15% of the new salary cap, which equated to about $10 million per season last year. And I feel it is too much to pay him for a rebuilding team with a huge need to upgrade their talent across the board while maintaining cap flexibility.
As a prospect, a strong case can be made he is worth ten million per season after next year. But I do not feel he is the right center prospect for this team under those terms where we are as a franchise.
Minn is one team where JVM would fit in nice. So the trade resonates for both sides for me.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Theory 2
Seems to me that the best way to build a contender is to fill out your roster in the following order: C, PF, PG, SG, SF.
PFs and especially Cs take the longest to develop and they’re the hardest to find. Best to draft them early when your team stinks and is drafting at the top of the lottery.
PGs are also hard to find and take a long time to develop, so you also want to get them early. But PGs also make their teammates much, much better which is a very good thing, except when it is time to re-sign your players. Playing with a great PG, your other players end up looking better than they really are. (Or to put it another way, the players on other teams with crappy PGs look worse than they really are.) Best not to get your great PG too early in your rebuild, otherwise it can be too expensive to keep your team together. I know this doesn’t seem like a problem now, but it will be in the coming years, one hopes. Nice problem to have, but still a problem.
SGs and SFs are the easiest to find. Get them last. Especially SFs. There are tons of different ways to fill the SF spot. There are probably more different types of SFs out there than any other position. Look at the Wiz last year- we used everyone from Booker to Rashard to Nick to Kirk there. Best to fill out your roster first. Wait and see what your other players’ strengths and weaknesses are and then find a SF to complement them.
Of course, this is only a general plan. Deviations are to be expected if there are good opportunities available. (For example, if you have a chance to get John Wall, you obviously snatch him up.) But they need to clearly be very good opportunities. Not sure if Derrick Williams for JaVale qualifies.
I think you take the superstars wherever they fall. And you build around them a team that:
- individually can guard a position, and collectively can guard every position
- has at least two playmakers (players that can create their own shot or open up others off the dribble)
- can score in all three areas of the court (front, mid, perimeter) consistently
- and can be near the league leaders both offensively and defensively
- has at least two go to players that can either get to the rim and finish/make free throws or a dominant big that can score in the post to pull you through the fourth quarter in the playoffs when the D tightens because the season is on the line and the officials give the players a little more leeway
I am sure there are more but those came first to mind. Ideally, I like your order though =)
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
oh and as miami is learning…you need a pecking order on the team: one guy that everyone knows gets the ball in super crunch time.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd echo what les boulez bomber says . . .
in the worst case that reasoning encourages a team to select a Sam Bowie over a Michael Jordan. If you have a chance to draft a superstar you’ve got to draft the superstar. Landing a dominant 5 is a big piece, but it’s not essential. If Wall continues on his current growth curve too, the Wizards will likely be in a position where they can add the center as a piece later in the process (as LA did (twice), Boston, the Mavs, Miami all did in recent years).
As far as great NBA centers go, most of the franchise type players were already pretty good in their rookie seasons. Some may have improved from that high standard, but I’m hard pressed to think of many players like McGee in year 3 who became near-elite players later on. The closest comparison that I’ve seen so far is someone like Tyson Chandler — although even that is probably a strained comparison. They’re different players.
but if you dont have a franchise five, you need a franchise four.
you can not go 1-2-3 nor can you go without one on the perimeter
by les boulez bomber on Jun 11, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
True . . .
but, the Wizards don’t have either a franchise four or five right now. Derrick Williams may not be a true franchise 4, but he could still be a valuable addition if the Wizards have the chance to draft him.
Noah wasnt that good
Would BFers rather have Noah or Derrick Williams?
If the option was McGee for Noah . . .
I’d rather have Noah.
Mcgee is going to be much better than Noah.
He’s 3yrs younger and is better than Noah was at the same age.
That's crazy talk . . .
Noah averaged four fewer points, but he took three fewer shots; had a significantly better assist to turnover ratio; and had more offensive rounds. Defensively, no comparison.
If the measure isn’t in wins, but based on blocks out of position, or NBA dunk contest, I’ll grant that McGee is more advanced. In the measures that translate most directly into wins, not so much.
Noah was also more advanced in selfish attitude and uncoachability
His own teamates disowned him and he was suspended that year after tumultous stuff with his coach if you recall. But of course no one does, not when there’s “style over substance” to cry foul about over mcgee
by DCrez on Jun 12, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No doubt he was a much bigger problem . . .
in terms of attitude problems and off-the-court distractions. Putting all that aside, he was still a better basketball player on the court at 23 than McGee. McGee is the better athlete. The fact that he isn’t a distraction on or off the court — provided Blatche isn’t anywhere too close — is a mark in his favor.
So - You're saying the truly elite teams in the NBA
all did it wrong…..
They started with a dominant WING….. Kobe, Durant, Nowitzki, LeBron, D-Wade,
or a dominant Point Guard – Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo,
The ONLY top teams that have followed the “dominant” inside presence that you talk about is Orlando and San Antonio (Duncan)… and San Antonio’s run is over… while Orlando has won absolutely nothing yet….
It’s better to draft best player available (Cleveland=Lebron, OKC = Durant, Chicago = Rose)… than try to shoe horn in your Center/PF first…..
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
by Rook6980 on Jun 12, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
How many titles have Cleveland, OKC and Chicago won?
How many did LA win without Gasol or Shaq? How did the dominant wing do in the series Cle vs SA?
How many did Boston win without Garnett or Perkins?
I think you are being a bit selective in the evidence you presented in this comment.
Just saying….
by DavidDunn on Jun 12, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just as selective as your big man argument….
There are more than ONE way to build a contending team….
The trend in today’s NBA (as opposed to LA with Shaq and SA with Dunan YEARS ago) is towards a dominant PG and Wing… It makes for a more exciting game…. and David Stern is all about exciting, because that’s what brings in TV viewers (read: MONEY), fills seats in arenas (read: MONEY), and advertisers (read: MONEY)…..
The days of the “Big Fundamental”, and the days of “Butt Rumble back it down in the post and dunk it Diesel” are long gone….
And I get it…. There are very few Shaq’s…. But many incredibly athletic, exciting wings – which makes for MORE teams with a Super Star…and MORE fans involved with the League. If I were David Stern, and I was in charge of the League – I’d ensure the rules were conducive to strong exciting PG and Wing play rather than boring post layups too……
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
by Rook6980 on Jun 12, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Uh....I didn't make an argument so I am not sure what you are referring to...I don't think you can discount
either position…I think trying to argue one or the other is a fool’s errand…both have value…but it is harder to find a big man.
I would argue that the days of the big fundamental and shaq fu are gone because they are gone, not because the league changed. Are you implying that think this years OKC team could be a Spurs team in their prime with Durant and Westbrook? Or a lakers team with Kobe and Shaq. With the current rules?
I doubt that you would tell me that if Chris Paul was on the Magic and they were dominating the east that you would say it is a PG -Wing league…I also find it odd to state the league is dominated by PGs when then the starters in Game 5 of the finals three days ago were Mike Bibby and JJ Barea.
Trends go back an forth but basketball is basketball. Until they outlaw rebounding, blocking and layups, big men will always be a valued commodity on an NBA team.
And I am not arguing for or against McGee here. I am stating that it is simply not true that a team can not be led by a big man to a championship and team’s probability of winning one is highly increased by having strong presence in the middle. Ask Dallas.
by DavidDunn on Jun 12, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Bottom line is to put the best players on the floor
Not the rarest players. McGee is our 5th best player (Wall, Young, Blatche, Crawford). Trading him for a better basketball player is an easy decision.
Crawford? Blatche? I dont see that at all, most especially not Blatche
he was basically terrible this season
Our best players in order
Wall
Lewis (when healthy)
Young
Blatche (when focussed)
McGee
Crawford
Booker
Seraphin
And this is a bad bad team ( in fact, a 3-38 on the road bad team)
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 13, 2011 5:47 AM EDT up reply actions
i'll have to agree to disagree with you guys on that
and obviously our differing valuations of our players are at the basis for most of these discussions….if we all agreed on what we had, these would be short conversations!
Bottom line is not to put the best players on the floor
At least not right away.
Bottom line is to win a championship.
To reach that goal, yes, you do have to consider players’ rarity.
So you think
That putting the most rare players rather than the best players on the floor is how you win championships?
There have been plenty of teams that have put together lots of talent at the 1 thru 4
Then never been able to get the necessary rare players (to fill the 5 spot, especially) to win a championship.
Dallas just won it all, but it was a really, really long, hard slog to find the guys to man the 5. How many 5s did Cuban overpay over the last decade?
that's a great point
and when you look over the list of 3s and 4s in the league….is Derrick Williams really a guy who can stand out from the seemingly endless list of SF/PF who score and rebound well? Is he truly going to be a two-way player or not? I have no idea, but imo that’s the key to his value. If he’s a 20/12 guy who Dray scores on at will….what’s the value really, is what i’m asking
And Nowitzski isn't a wing...
and Mike’s article is based on the assumption that Williams is a Power Forward.
Well....
I count Nowitzki as a wing because of the way he plays…. LIKE A WING…
And I expect if the Wizards draft Derrick Williams, he will play mostly as a Small Forward…. Where, I believe, he has the most chance to be really special….If he plays PF, he’ll most likely end up like David West… But as a SF, especially if he can improve his handle, he could be Melo/Bron like….
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
That's fine. But I am pretty sure that Mike's premise for the trade
was predicated on Williams playing PF. Or did I miss something?
And I am not sure that Dirk playing like a wing negates the fact that he is a superstar PF on that team, which was the point made in the comment that responded to (PFs before SFs in terms of value)
I am not arguing one way or another. I honestly haven’t thought about it deeply. I just want to make sure both sides are given fair hearing, thus my response with a counter argument.
the fact no one seems to be able to pinpoint Williams' position should be worrying in and of itself.
Wait . . .
how exactly does that work?
Rook just highlights a guy like Nowitzki who doesn’t easily fit into the PF mold.
So clearly there are cases where a tweener is not a problem in and of itself. Nowitzki is an extreme positive case, but there are plenty of examples of tweeners who have contributed to really, really good teams that are less extreme. e.g. Rashard Lewis being another one of many examples. Kevin Durant, A. Jamison., David West. Of course there’s the case of Sir Charles too as another positive.
At the end of the day the thing that matters most is whether a guy can play. If he can, teams will find a way to get him PT.
I guess you can put the “tweener” label on the negative side of the balance sheet, but there are other considerations that count for much more.
Dirk is a 7´0 jumpshooter .....not 6´9 slasher
Thad Young is a better comparison to me
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 12, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
i dont think Dirk or Durant are 'tweeners
nor that AJ is a good example as to why we should trade for Derrick Williams
I see it the other way around
Williams will be his best at the 4. That’s where he creates the most mismatches. A lot of 3’s in the league are strong enough to guard him and if not, most are faster than he is.
Also, what’s wrong with him becoming David West? He is a really good player, not that that should be the goal but he isn’t bad at all. And no he can not be Melo or Lebron. Their games were already fundamentally different from Williams’ at this point. I just think you have him pegged all wrong.
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
by qthaballa on Jun 13, 2011 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
David West is a good player
but not one you’d trade an improving 7’2" C for imho. I havent watched much of Derrick Williams so i really dont know…..but I find it concerning people cant even agree if he’ll play the 3 or 4 yet somehow he is potentially a franchise 1A player.
Not that it’s impossible
i look at his tweenerism...
as being versatility. just works best with another versatile forward. that’s why i like the idea of taking Williams #2 then taking Singleton #6. can let singleton have the tougher defensive match up and let williams play the weaker opposing forward. if a team wants to cover Williams with a SF he can go to the post. If they want to cover him with a big then he can take them outside. Singleton spots up either way. and if they choose to cover singleton with a big then he probably could take him off the dribble. against teams with a burly PF then Williams weight will probably make him a better cover against that guy but never know.
Good Bye Javelle
If this actually happens. I am A-OKAY with cutting Javelle loose. I actually think on another more senior team with more discipline than the Wizards currently have, he will develop more. The distractions need to be taken away from him, Nick Young some what and Blatche. Javalle has talent and upside. But he doesn’t get it yet. On another team, in another city, away from Washington, I think he has a better chance.
I welcome Derrick Williams. Him and John Wall will be buddy buddies no doubt. They will then lead the team. Nick Young will listen, and stock screwing around, and so will everone else. Cut Javalle if we have a good deal lined up.
That simple. Period.
by Joe Kobos on Jun 11, 2011 12:00 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Well you dont even know how to spell his name
so its no wonder you wanna get rid of him. Sorry but it’s true, who is Javelle?
by Wizards Khalifa on Jun 12, 2011 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
LOL, but he is right though in that a more senior team with accomplished vets and a good culture would do him good
He will ride the pine at first and everybody will yell at im in practice éveryday which will ultimately make him the player he can be
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 12, 2011 5:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I just realized that
People who are arguing to keep JVM are sort of being irrational, in the sense that they don’t argue for both sides. Most people arguing to keep JVM simply state how his potential is huge and you don’t let such prospect go.
People who are arguing for the trade on the other hand are being very rational. For instance Mike and Rook weigh lots of situations instead of simply arguing that Williams is better than Mcgee (which I don’t think they necessarily think that).
If I was a debate class teacher it’s pretty simple who wins the debate.
by Young Wook Lee on Jun 11, 2011 11:08 PM EDT reply actions
don´t think this statement helps the discussion very much
no need to call out people who don´t agree with you dude.
Plus there is two aspects to the discussion here 1. Javale with his potential, mentality and contract situation and 2. the return in the draft (Williams and whomever we get with our other picks)
The world never is black and white man, its lots and lots of shades of grey
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 12, 2011 5:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Who me or YWL?
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 12, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Obviously me
But I was just being honest, the people who argue to keep JVM never really mention the fact that he’s worth more than having two top 6 picks from this draft, or the situation where he could leave us
by Young Wook Lee on Jun 12, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
he is not being traded for two top picks. He is being traded for one.
So are you saying that if we didn’t have the 6th pick that you would not trade him for the 2nd pick?
No I'm talking about playing time
If we keep JVM and #6 pick we are forced to draft a sf in a sense even if Kanter or Valanciunas is available. Let’s say we don’t trade, and come 6th pick Kanter or Valanciunas is available. Then we are hit with a serious dilema, do we draft an one of them despite the lack of minutes, or do we just go with Leonard or whoever else that can fit in the SF role. However, if we trade JVM for the #2 pick it opens up a lot of minutes for our bigman prospects, and I’m not just talking about who we can draft at #6 but even for the ones we drafted last year. That’s why it’s more of a 2 picks versus one player rather than one pick versus one player because of the opened up minutes.
by Young Wook Lee on Jun 12, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Valunciuanas should not factor in whatsoever
his buyout is an unknown and he is universally considered to be a few years away from being an nba Center. Cant make decisions based on a guy like that, there is nothing concrete about him.
Kanter can play both PF and C and would find plenty of minutes available in his rookie year. If anything drafting Kanter and keeping Mcgee is best, because 1)their skills probably compliment and 2)if Javale leaves for more money after next season, there’s another 7ft’er already on the roster
So you're saying Leonard and Vesley are better prospects than Valanciunas?
Well I apologize if some people got offended, but from the comments I read it’s what I felt, and obviously I didn’t read every comment theres like 500 or so
by Young Wook Lee on Jun 12, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm not saying those two are better prospects
i’m saying that what we do re: Javale shouldnt hinge on Valunciunas. From what I have read he wont even play in the USA next season, not ready yet. And he has that buyout situation (may not even enter draft this year). So it would be a mistake to think “We can trade Javale and replace him with Valunciunas”
His buyout will be clearedprior to the draft. Almost all centers are prospects when drafted
The last centers drafted without question marks was shaq almost twenty years ago
by les boulez bomber on Jun 13, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
So after days of thinking about it
I’m ok with this.
My only huge, HUGE fear is that JaVale leaves and becomes a freaking. Crazy. Insane.
beast
like dwight with rocket trampolines for legs and the wingspan of a terodactyl.
That would be so fruatrating…
by DCeee on Jun 11, 2011 11:24 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Pretty interesting Insider article
on why Kanter is a better pick than D-Willy, the tweener thing is a bit concerning imo. Which is one of the many reasons I am saddened by the Javale rumors. Also, for those that dont have insider, Gottlieb makes a good case for Chris Singleton over Kawhi Leonard, Charles Jenkins over Kemba, and Jon Leuer over the Morris twins.
http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog?name=ncbexperts&id=6651654
by Wizards Khalifa on Jun 12, 2011 1:06 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Those are some interesting points.
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
DWilliams ánd Kanter at # 6 would make it worthwhile for me though
other combo´s not so much. And if we can get # 20 as well, we could package #18, #20 and maybe Booker or Seraphin (with Williams, Kanter and Singleton we don´t have enough minutes to develope all of them) for a pick in the # 10 to # 15 range and grab Singleton.
I think i would crap my pants if we come away from the draft with Williams ánd Kanter ánd Singleton….
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 12, 2011 5:26 AM EDT up reply actions
If you believe the tweener label, then yes
but I feel he is a four. I think his effort level sometimes lends him to playing small for a four in the NBA. but effort level can change. He conserved his energy. The question to ask is if it was because he was the go to man on that team and he knew he needed to be there at the end of the game or lack of desire. I hope it is the former.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 12, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
3/4
Ford floated the idea that he is pitching himself to teams as a 3 because the teams at the top of the draft all have young 4’s. They all could use help at the 3.
I see him as a 4 too. He just happens to be athletic enough to play some 3 in spots to compliment that.
Happily for those in your immediate vicinity...
this scenario is highly unlikely!
It would be nice though :-)
I just have an unshakeable feeling
that McGee is the ultimate late bloomer. Think about it: he grew an inch last summer after he figured out he had asthma. That’s solid evidence that he is still maturing physically. Combine that with his mental aptitude for being coached and occasional anti-social behavior and you have a total work in progress.
But the best case scenario of physical and mental maturity happening together, this upcoming season, is too tantalizing for me to ignore. Until our franchise player fixes the only flaw in his game I can’t conclude that Williams will bring us closer to a championship any quicker than an improving McGee.
The next McGee may not be coming out of the draft for 5-7 years. The next D. Williams is coming out next year and the year after that. We’ll never regret making the trade because finding a 6’8" tweener with a nice skillset isn’t that difficult. How many 7’1" guys with AMAZING hands run like a cheetah, are durable (no injuries last season) and average 10 ppg with no go-to move?
by el freako on Jun 12, 2011 2:13 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
agree
the only problem may be that if he doesn’t ever quite “pan” out this will have been the best trade opportunity while his value was the highest
bring back darvin ham
nah. he'll continue to improve.
he is certain to improve as a player, and thus as an asset. the only real question is where he will top out. he’s 5 years away from his physical peak.
Just because he improves as a player doesn't mean he improves his asset value
What if he has his best year in his career next year, and thus gets a big contract, but never improves, or even deproves from there. Then his asset value going down and we’ll be thinking only if we traded him then.
by Young Wook Lee on Jun 12, 2011 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
anything is possible in 'what if' land.
history indicates that he will continue to get better for the next 5 years at least. “well what if he doesn’t?” okay. we should trade him because there’s a chance he tops out next year as a 24yo big man.
“well what if he plays himself out of our price range?” so are we planning to swap out a 22yo derrick williams in three years? will we perpetually swap out 22-23yo bigs for cheaper 19-20yo bigs every 3yrs because we are scared to try and re-sign them? who does that?
“well what if he doesn’t live up to his next contract?” that’s so far up in the air that there’s not much to gain from the conversation. you have to spill the milk before you can cry over it.
by jones-y on Jun 12, 2011 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Fantastic points man
I agree, and this is why I don’t agree when anyone brings up other situations in relation. JaVale is a very uncommon big man. I’m back on the NO side of the trade, and it most likely won’t happen anyway.
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
We need a new article..This one got so big my phone is taking for ever to load it!
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
How about "the case for not resigning/resigning Nick Young"
that should hold us over for a week or two…
Is it thát long till the draft....shees
When is it exactly?
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 12, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
We´re here talking about all these great scenario´s for us but somehow
I keep having the feeling something will go terribly wrong. Like, we´ll trade down with the bobcats and end up with Clay Thompson,Justin Harper and Scotty Hopson or some such
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 12, 2011 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Noooooooo!!!!!!!
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
Off topic,
But did anyone see the NBADRAFT.net mock with Kanter at #1 overall?
Seems like Jonas V might go for next year’s draft bc of his buyout, guaranteeing us NO kanter
Yeah. Kanter ain´t going # 1 though
The reasoning is that they get a great non-pg first and there still be a good pg around at #4, whereas if they go Irving at #1, Kanter ánd Williams are possibly gone by #4 and you´re stuck with Biyombo or Vesely or something like that.
This scenario is realistic, especially if Valanciunas drops out but I think they would pick Williams instead of Kanter at #1
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 12, 2011 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
NBAdraftnet
Tends to be a bit crazy in their ups and downs. It’s not a bad site, but I prefer draftexpress.
Im just gna go ahead and say it
Yeeeees MAVS!! Fuck you lebron, Karma is a wonderful, beautiful bitch (i hope cursing is chill here) yeeeeees!!
by Wizards Khalifa on Jun 12, 2011 10:51 PM EDT reply actions
No it isnt
But I think this occasion is an exception worthy. Besides “a beautifull Bitch” is a great title for a short story
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Jun 13, 2011 5:54 AM EDT up reply actions
i don't think minnesota makes that trade
but, like prada, i’d do it.
mcgee gets dominated when he plays against good opposing centers. i don’t see that changing.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Jun 13, 2011 11:57 AM EDT reply actions
I do.
He isn’t dominated because of lack of physical tools, lack of athleticism, or lack of height, he’s dominated because of lack of fundamental play, lack of strength, and lack of bulk. You can get stronger; you can add bulk; you can learn to play smarter. You don’t learn physical gifts, athleticism, or height. You’re born with those. His assets are intrinsic. His deficiencies aren’t. His deficiencies are correctable, and he’s given us no reason to believe he won’t correct them.
I wonder how people can consider a 23yo McGee essentially a finished product in this regard, when there are so many examples of big men continuing to improve defensively deep into their late 20’s?
my issue with it is...
lets say he “gets it” at about 26. 3 years from now he learns to play ball like a starting center on a winning team – doing all the little things, showing good court awareness on both ends of the floor. his contract is up next year. you have to decide whether or not to commit to him before he’s gotten it. at that point there will still be doubt that he will get it. depending on how the new cba goes it might be too much of a $$ and sense risk.
i personally look at DWilliams as a pretty safe choice – especially if he plays PF in the league. That’s my take on him from watching him. I think 3 years from now Williams will be the better player even with the improvements from McGee. If Cleveland was going to take Williams #1 then I’d say keep McGee and just let the chips fall where they may after this year – if there is a season.
This is mostly where I'm at too
I don’t doubt McGee will get better. The question is, how much better, how quickly, and will it happen here. People who throw out the Chandler/Camby/etc comparisons forget that those guys blossomed after being traded. A new voice and a new role in a new city helped them tremendously.
That’s why I only do it for Williams, who I think will be really good. Anyone else: no dice.
Age, experience, and maturity helped Chandler more than anything else
He would’ve gotten a new voice and a new role had Chicago kept him.
Do we turn around and get rid of Derrick Williams in 3 years?
How much of ‘I would do this trade’ is really ‘I don’t want Andray Blatche V.2’
Managing NBA personnel is nothing but educated guesses, risks, and gambles. Scared money don’t make none. There is uncertainty in every move. Its clear here which move has more uncertainty and risk attached.
The only scenario where we are better off with a 3rd year Derrick Williams instead of a 6th year Javale McGee is the scenario where Williams is a borderline superstar. Is he?
McGee’s next contract is so cloudy that there is greater risk in making a pre-emptive move than sitting pat. ‘What if he’s dirt cheap?’ is just as valid a question. If he’s expensive, does that automatically mean he’s too expensive? What if he’s worth the expense? What if he outperforms his expense in years 3-6 of the contract?
If he rounds into shape in year two of that contract, then resounding success.
We are quick to what-if McGee, but where are Williams’ what-if’s? What if he ain’t that good? What if he keeps taking plays off on defense at money time like he did in the tourney (translation: he took plays off in the PLYAOFFS – that’s pretty damning)? What if he can’t guard a baby from a lollipop or rebound a fat chick? What if 4’s go through him and 3’s go around him at will? My point is that there are risks associated with every personnel move, and its quite clear which move is less risky, smarter, and more likely to be a good move in the near term and the long term.
Williams is the best prospect in the draft, yet we are trading up to #2 to get him? Something wrong with that picture?
by jones-y on Jun 13, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
even chandler or a younger camby
i’d look at dealing for a #2 pick. both those guys have been essentially salary dumped during their careers – even in their primes.
who has more upside, mcgee or the #2 this year? unclear, but i’m no longer wowed by mcgee’s potential. i don’t doubt he’ll improve, but i still question whether he’ll ever be a 30 minute guy on a good team.
reasonable people can disagree on this, but that’s where i’m at.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Jun 13, 2011 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
he averaged 28 minutes a game last year.
if i recall correctly, he played like 40 minutes in his triple double game. and there was an overtime game or two where he logged like 50.
when blatche went out, he got more minutes and responded with his best play of the season.
to me, the issue for him, like most 7 footers, is how to be effective when tired. and to be honest he had some games where i preferred his tired play to his fresh legs play.
his asthma will always be a concern, but legit question is a stretch given that he’s already averaged 28 per.
So he averaged 28. Why do you think he can play more?
Seems like if the other options on the team are Yi and Armstrong then you’re going to get as many minutes as you can handle.
I don’t really know much about his condition. Does it get better? Maybe he’s maxed out at 28.
I didn't say I thought he could play more.
I’m saying he’s already essentially achieved 30mpg, so I don’t see the question of whether he can play 30mpg going forward as a legitimate question. Its already been answered.
Does it get better?
It already has gotten better. There is already a marked improvement between his condition before the asthma discovery (during the 09-10 season) and after.
Perhaps it will continue to improve, but I have no idea.
Actually his play with Blatche out was fairly sporadic
Everyone likes to remember the peaks, but no one likes to recall the valleys of February and early March
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
his play was sporadic period
when blatche went out his play improved and more or less plateaued. i’m not saying there were no peaks or valleys. i’m saying he played his best ball from that pointgoing forward.
He improved through out his first season starting.
More good games than bad. More average games than bad.
Wally's World
by forthepeople on Jun 15, 2011 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Enjoyed that a lot
If we have a chance to get DWILL, do it.
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