Derrick Rose was Undeserving of MVP
by zl on May 24, 2011 11:20 PM EDT
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PrintAs I watch Derrick Rose take bad shot after bad shot in the final minutes of this game 4, I can't help but wonder how in the world this player was selected the MVP. Yes, he's being defended well by LeBron, but if you're the MVP over LeBron James and Dwight Howard mainly because of your offensive prowess, you better be damn near unstoppable on that side of the court. The fact is, Derrick Rose just takes too many shots. I don't understand how analysts can say he has no other offensive options when Carlos Boozer, one of the premier scorers in the league at the forward position, is on the court constantly. I'll finish with this statement: For this season and this season alone, there is no GM in the NBA who would rather have had Derrick Rose than Dwight Howard, Dwyane Wade, or LeBron James.
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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Perhaps
I guess he primarily has the ball and he’s pretty much running the offense, and pushes the tempo?!
Who knows….
What happens in the playoffs has no bearing on what happens in the regular season
It’s a regular-season award.
by Mike Prada on May 25, 2011 12:16 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
rec'd
This is nothing new anyway. Chicago’s offense hasn’t been that good all year anyway. It’s being magnified against a Heat team with great defense that they have to play 4 times against and will make adjustments and also everything gets tougher in the playoffs.
Rose being the only person on the entire Bulls roster able to make a play for himself and others consistently has to be tough too.
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
by qthaballa on May 25, 2011 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Boozer isn't carrying enough of the load though
With few offensive threats of the bench a starting lineup with Bogans as a offensive non-issue, Deng unable to create his own shot and Noah as more of a p&r/clean up guy, Boozer needs to be relied upon to get it done when plays brake down (to the 3th and 4th option as it often does in the playoffs).
Tháts why they signed him and he is not delivering (not enough anyway). He had a nice game here and there but its just not good enough.
If he Boozer was better, Rose would have an option which opens up his own offensive as well. We wouldn’t have this discussion on the MVP thing either.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on May 25, 2011 6:33 AM EDT up reply actions
and Boozer gets killed on defense, just absused
So even when he has decent scoring nights, it can still be a net negative.
The Heat’s defense is just superb. If you dont have guys who can create their own shot out of nothing you dont have a chance, no matter what sets you run imho.
Yep, ur right. Blatche is better on D lol
Would DRose know who Nick Young is? ;-)
Young Sushi on the Bulls would be very intruiging from a non-Bullets standpoint
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on May 25, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Can everybody finally admit that Boozer's overrated?
I’ve never understood the amount of love that guy gets.
Boozer put up a stinker for the Jazz last year
And is doing much of the same here. I never thought that highly of him. Weak, lazy matador defense and sometimes lazy effort on the boards. He gets his numbers but they aren’t impactful
I'm not going to think of something extra witty or clever to say, I don't want to convince you to see things my way, I just have 2 words for you: JEREMY LAMB
Yuuuuuup
The only award NBA players really covet with MVP in the acronym is Finals MVP.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on May 25, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
As I watched that game
I saw exactly why Rose was voted MVP. He doesn’t have one, not one teammate that can do anything offensively when it counted. He was the only option for his team, and yeah he failed miserably tonight. But the votes were given for the regular season, where he did the opposite of fail, he led his team to the best record in the league, as arguably his team’s only option.
And to be fair, I think Rose just made some really bad decisions closing out that game tonight. I think he can beat Lebron one-on-one off the dribble. Not every time, but he can do it. He just never even tried in those closing minutes. He either settled for a tough shot, or dished it to a teammate(who often just stood there with the ball waiting for Rose to come take it again). And why can’t you call a play for Deng or Korver to roll off some screens and get themselves open one time? I mean geez. Your team is struggling to score coach, call a damn play. Even more of a stretch, I feel like the screens set for Rose in the last 5 minutes and OT were more a hindrance than anything. Noah was not rolling very hard, and really just taking up Rose’s space to build up some steam.
That game was very poorly executed by the Bulls, and in the end, Rose did play like crap, I will not argue that. But he was much more successful this season than he was tonight. He won more games than anybody in the league. And the MVP was given to him for that.
And on a slightly different note, Lebron should never win another MVP, as long as he has Wade and Bosh on his team. Wade (and maybe Chris Bitch Bosh) is a hands down HOF and that team is a playoff team with or without Lebron. Yes, I am strongly biased to this subject.
Ok last portion of my rant, did you see Bitch(why does my computer keep doing that to his name?)Bosh, flop on that Boozer ‘flagrant’? He literally flopped around on the ground. I mean, it reminded me of a fish flopping around on the ground for a second. You really should not be allowed on a basketball court if you are willing to act like that. Let the ref make his call dude, you don’t have to deliberately try and trick him into making the wrong call. I hope refs see that crap on tape later, and take note that he does as much acting as Queen Latifah on any given night. I have literally no respect for the man. Maybe Canada made him forget what a basketball player is.
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
by returnofswagger on May 25, 2011 12:26 AM EDT reply actions
They might Very well be the biggest threat to Snatch “strong self creating shot” Nick Young From
Us :(
i wonder what they could give us in a Sign n Trade Deal ? Just in Case
luckely Nick seems to be underrated around the league
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on May 25, 2011 6:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Huh?
Nick Young has a below average PER. He has never had a season with an above average PER. This season his defense and TS% have been good. However, the idea that he would change the outcome of the Chicago series is just nuts.
The Heat are a great defensive team, and even better when the refs give them a pass on fouls. There was a double digit difference in FTs attempted in that game. More than anything else, that was outcome determinant.
True on all counts, except
Sushi is exactly what that team is missing. I’m not even a big Nick Young fan, but I’d take him over Bogans any day on any team. Especially that one.
last night's game sickened me because
Lebron checked DRose at the PG position! Ugh, he so fricking good it’s just disgusting. He didnt even get tired last night while most everybody else was gassed. Cant stand him….and the Heat are about to go dynastic on us. The Mavs have zero chance against this team, none. Ugh
Lebron killed Rose
He absolutely handled his business. And I agree, that literally makes me sick. It sucks when the guy actually comes through.
On a brighter note, Dirk is showing that he can play at a level, in the postseason, that Derrick Rose can not get to at this point. Who on the Heat can check Dirk, I mean seriously? Lebron will learn real quick the difference between iso-ing a 6’ 2" pg with a shaky jumper and a 7 foot German with skills Larry Bird can’t shake a stick at. My hope is that Dirk is on a mission, and refuses to let Miami rob him of his dreams a second time in his career. That’s assuming Lebron and co. are incapable of blowing this series and letting the Bulls steal three straight, which I don’t think is out of the realm of possibility, if Rose or someone steps it up a little.
I mean Boozer and Rose both missed a ft in the final few minutes last night that would have won them the game. Plus, Rose had his opportunities to win the game, he just missed the shots. Point is although it kind of appears that way, Chicago is not entirely outmatched in this series.
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
by returnofswagger on May 25, 2011 10:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No one can check Dirk, not really
He’s now at the point where it isnt just that fall back J….he basically has gotten to where he can throw the ball at the hoop one-handed from any position and it goes in. Just amazing, so fun to watch.
He’ll do his thing, but JET has to have a few unconscious games as well for the Mavs to get something going i think
My guts says Lebron can contain him....
He is ‘only’ 6’8 and gives up a lot but he’ll get in his jersey all game long and bulldozer over him in transition which will were Dirk out beceause you cant switch in transition, at least not easily.
If they have bosh or anthony on Dirk they’ll try to block his shot. That’s just impossible and you’ll end up fouling him 7 out of 10 times while he hits the other 3. You’ll have to do the work before he catches the rock and Lebron is long and strong enough to be effective at that.
Sorry to say, he is that good.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on May 25, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
probably so
but Dirk is one of the nba’s annointed players even as much as lebron is….he’ll get to the line a ton, especially in dallas of course. but yeah, at the end of the day lecrybaby is on another talent level than even dirk
I would have to disagree
What were people watching during the WCF, seriously. Dirk played SO GOOD like ridiculously good. It was just freaking unbelievable. Just think of the games both teams made an incredible comeback. When down 18, who ignited the mavs to come back? Dirk, single handedly without a legit help from a teammate, destroyed the young Thunders. Lebron on the other hand, had the face “well we lost this game at least we have a 3-2 lead of the bulls” when brewer hit that 3 pointer. And who ignited a spark for the Heat? Not lebron, but Wade. Only when Wade got fast 5 points did Lebron think, oh we might have a chance, unlike Dirk. So to me, Dirk is definitely playing better right now than Lebron
by Young Wook Lee on May 29, 2011 6:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Sounds like a gamble.
If dirk keeps playing at a high level, dallas will just abuse that. Moving lebron to the 4 leaves mike miller to guard the weak side, or somebody else playing out of their position. Dirk either takes the shot with the size advantage, or swings the ball around.
In theory, at least.
Geting it done.
"Do your work before he catches the rock"
Ideally, that works against big men. But Dirk has unlimited range. What would Lebron do, push him totally out of bounds? Because If Dirk catches it all the way out behind the three point line, well then he is still in range.
And I don’t agree that he could manhandle the Dirk the way you describe to begin with anyway. Plus Lebron is good locking a guy down for a few possessions or for a quarter, but can he handle the pressure of containing Dirk for a whole game or even an entire series?
Anyway, let’s end this discussion right here, Derrick Rose is about to go super-sayan and win the series for his city.
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
by returnofswagger on May 25, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Between JET
Kidd, Barea, Peja, these guys knock down three, and will not find themselves in the same position as Chicago, where guys just are not making any shots.
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
by returnofswagger on May 25, 2011 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
We'll maybe i'm over confident in Lebron (wait, what!?)
But i did not say he would stop him, i said contain him. I think Dirk is unstoppable to certain extend. He also is that good :-)
If anything, i’m happy for him that he gets a little of the recognision he has been deserving to get for yrs. He aint soft, he’s money from the team bus and he can will his team to a win. He’s just not punching someone in the face, thats all.
I will be rooting for Dallas in a finals against either Chicago or Miami. Dunno why exactly but Dirk has something to do with, Haywood and Deshawn ofcoursse but Caron was my favorit from the Dallas group and he aint there.
But what am i saying, the conference finals aint even over yet. Go Rose & Co! Beat the queen!
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on May 25, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
He has been doing this to people for years
Ok, maybe he is the best… until… He BLOWS it.
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
by returnofswagger on May 25, 2011 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
gets a little of the recognision he has been deserving to get for yrs
Well he WAS league MVP. He gets some recogntion
by MR on May 25, 2011 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
New Jersey is counting their blessings
but then they remember they signed Travis Outlaw
by Bullet Nation in Exile on May 25, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on May 25, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Should have read all the way down before replying up top
But it’s damn nice to see that I’m not the only one blowing that horn.
You have a bizarre way of awarding the regular season MVP
Because Rose can’t score over Lebron, Wade and Bosh?
Of course Dwight Howard was my pick but HIVE MIND does not like hearing that.
Who's HIVE MIND?
I had DHoward as well. Mainly beceause Chicago was a top defensive team with and without Rose on the floor. Ofcourse Rose’s value is mostly on offense but they were only an average offensive team (i believe Hollinger had them 14th)
Howard on the otherside made a team with horrible defenders a good to great defensive team, while also being a major part of their offense.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on May 25, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oops, i think it means the collective opinion, right?
Ur right. Quick, i should give Rose some props.
Rose is fantastic and i think people sometimes forget how rediculously fast he developed and i mean absolutely insanely fast) when they say Wall will do the same and become just as good.
But when it came to the MVP discussion i was DHoward all the way
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on May 25, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm using this playoff game to illustrate the whole season
He just isn’t even on the same level as LeBron and Howard. I don’t have the time to do it, but put D-Rose’s stats this year next to 2008-09 Chris Paul, 2006-07 Steve Nash, 2009-10 Deron Williams, the list goes on. The other players had better years, and they didn’t win MVP. It just wasn’t nearly as spectacular of a season as Howard’s LeBron’s, or even Kevin Love’s. LeBron is putting up comparable number’s to Jordan, for Christ’s sake! He was better than Rose in almost every statistical category (0.4 fewer assists).
Like many of the awards there are a lot of factors that go into it that are not obvious by looking at stats.
One of the most important numbers, however, is wins. The award almost always goes to a player on one of the teams with the best or second best record in the league.
If Orlando had another 7-10 wins Howard would have won it. How can the best player on a second tier team be the most valuable player in the league?
You also have to look at team mates of all the candidates. Wade and Lebron will never win the award as long as they are both productive and on the same team.
How can the best player on a second tier team be the most valuable player in the league?
Why should the quality of a player’s teammates influence whether or not he wins the MVP award? The Bulls won more games than the Magic because Derrick Rose had better teammates than Dwight Howard.
by zl on May 25, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Comparing him to Jordan
Take a look at Jordan’s numbers: It’s not close. In 86-87, Jordan average 37.1 ppg. His career average is 30.1 ppg, which includes his later years with the Wizards. Lebron has only had one season where he averaged more than 30 points. Jordan is much, much better than Lebron. Lebron has a great year, but Jordan-esq… only if you’re looking at his numbers after he turns 30. But, he was older and his hands were sore from wearing all those championship rings….
I would have put Howard over Rose as my MVP candidate, but I think Rose has a strong case. He was the best player on the best team in his conference in the regular season. He did a lot more with a lot less than Lebron James did. Anybody in the discussion for MVP had a great season. However, if you swapped Lebron James for Derrick Rose, I think the Heat end up with the best record, and Chicago ends up at 4th seed.
As for Kevin Love, when your team is picking 2nd in the NBA lottery, I find it hard to say you’re the most valuable player in the league. I mean, if Kevin Love wasn’t on the T-wolves, would it really change their record that much? On some level, stat-filling doesn’t matter as much as wins produced.
Yes, LeBron is not the scorer Jordan was. But he has a comparable all-around game (reb, ast, etc.). Overall, his career numbers are very comparable to Jordan’s.
Rose had better teammates than LeBron James. Dwyane Wade had a great season, but Bosh really struggled and there was practically no one else on that team. If you swap Derrick Rose for LeBron James, the Bulls would probably have won about 68 games, maybe even challenged for 70.
Without Kevin Love, the Wolves would have easily broken the record for losses in a season. I mean, look at that team. It wouldn’t have been close.
by zl on May 25, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Jordan
No, they don’t. Jordan in his prime was significantly more efficient than Lebron James. If you compare Lebron right now to Jordan at this age, Jordan scored 7 more points per game, had .6 fewer turnovers, and his shooting percentage was dramatically better.
If Lebron James wants to compare himself favorably to Michael Jordan, he should take up baseball. Jordan is that much better.
Look
Here are LeBron and Jordan’s 8th seasons per36:
LeBron: 24.8 pts, 59.4% TS, 6.9 reb, 6.5 ast, 3.3 to
Jordan: 27.9 pts, 57.9% TS, 5.9 reb, 5.7 ast, 2.3 to
That’s comparable. I didn’t say LeBron James is better than Jordan, I said “LeBron James is putting up comparable numbers to Jordan.” That’s it. And he is
by zl on May 25, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
MJ is MJ and that's that
But I think our distaste for Lebron tends to make folks sell him short at times. He really is something special, and the clinic he put on last night defensively really highlights just how absurdly good he is.
Sickening!
He didn't put on a clinic
Just the idea of Lebron defending Rose, scared Rose to death. It was disgusting. Rose never even put any pressure on Lebron to play any D. If he had, he probably would have at least gotten fouled a time or two.
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
by returnofswagger on May 25, 2011 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Rose isn't exactly known as an amazing defender
I don’t understand why dominance in other statistical categories is never valued as highly as dominance in scoring (not even dominance, but volume in scoring). Basketball is a game of possessions; when you’re the best rebounder in the league you’re helping your team an incredible amount. Yet a player who scores 25 points a game, regardless of his efficiency, will always be valued more than a guy who’s a beast on the boards.
by zl on May 25, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
You should just start another award then.
Something like “most dominant in statistical categories”.
Because Most Valuable Player is something completely different. It has more to do with who contributes to the most winning on a team.
If you refuse to understand the purpose of the award it’s not the award’s fault.
by MR on May 25, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
zl would be the to start giving out that award.
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
by returnofswagger on May 25, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
There is a high correlation between two statistics and winning the MVP award. Those two statistics are:
1. Team wins
2. Points scored per game
Don’t tell me that the MVP award isn’t based on statistics because it is. It’s just based on the wrong statistics. If Derrick Rose had been on the Wolves this year and had the exact same season, they would have won about 30 games and he wouldn’t have been in the discussion. Why? Because he had worse teammates, something that has nothing to do with the “value” of a player.
by zl on May 25, 2011 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
you put kevin love in the MVP discussion above
and now you are saying that if the actual MVP was added to KLove the Wolves would only win 30 games?
Again, I think you’re confusing it with BEST player.
If Rose was not on the Bulls then they would miss the playoffs. As it was they had the best record in the league. That’s how valuable he was.
If I have a canteen of water next to me right now it’s not very valuable. I have a faucet and a glass right next to me. If I’m in the middle of the Sahara that canteen of water is very valuable. Precious. Same water. Just more valuable.
by MR on May 25, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
you brought up defense in response to
me saying that kevin love had a better season than rose. Neither love nor rose is a great defender, so how is that relevant?
by zl on May 25, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Rose is so much better on defense than Kevin Love, it's not even close
I think Love is a really good player, but he’s Boozer-bad defensively.
LeBron’s name should never be next to MJ’s. Never.
by ChewinStraws on May 25, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought this was assumed.
Any argument that supports Derrick Rose either contradicts another argument for Rose or better supports another candidate. Derrick Rose’s MVP award might be the least deserving in the last ten years. He has competition with Nash. It was a joke when he was awarded it and the playoffs demonstrate that perfectly.
The true MVP plays in Florida. Just not on the Heat. Dirk is the highest ranked MVP from my mythical ballot remaining. Then LeBron.
by zeke5123 on May 25, 2011 3:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I was a Howard guy
But nothing that ever happens in the playoffs supports anything that happens in the regular season, because it is a regular-season award.
Nash in 06 was much more insane than Rose in 10. Also, I’d argue Kobe in 08 was worse.
Nash in 06 had a pretty amazing season. Lost 3 of his top 4 scorers and still finished with the fourth best record in the league.
Cleveland didn’t even win their division, Detroit was an ensemble effort (as SA), The Lakers had an off year…so I think Lebron, Kobe or anyone from Detroit would have been more of a stretch. I think Nowitzki may have a bone to pick, but he also had a lot more help on the team.
Nash just played his whole team like a conductor of an orchestra and I’m glad he got rewarded.
by MR on May 25, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Nash was just as valuable to his team as LeBron was to his and the Suns won many more games in a much tougher conference.
Just remember the guy lost Amare and Joe Johnson and STILL had 10+ assists per game.
He shot over 50% from the field, 90% from the line, and 40% from 3 which I think has only been done a few times in history.
Actually I’m proud of the voters for looking past the obvious dominance of a guy like Lebron to recognize (again) the masterful way Nash made everyone on his team play at their ceiling.
by MR on May 25, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
But if dominance is obvious, then it should be rewarded
I don’t get that logic.
LeBron’s second-best player that year was Larry Hughes, and he missed half the season. He lost his second-best player (Boozer) over the summer, and they still won eight more games. Eric Snow and Flip Murray were his starting guards.
They finished 6th in the league. And were in a very weak Eastern Conference.
Sorry, but that is just not the way that award is given.
Ilgauskus still had some gas in the tank. Gooden wasn’t bad either.
Both guys had terrible teams surrounding them and played great. But the Suns finished much better so the edge goes to Nash.
If the Cavs had more wins I would agree with you.
I am not arguing that the playoffs should be considered for a regular season award.
But that the playoffs have magnified every criticism levied at Rose. It has perfectly demonstrated to the whole NBA Rose’s weaknesses that were brushed away in the regular season because he was not scrutinized.
Kinda like what Hollinger tweeted. Paraphrased, the fact that LeBron is outplaying Rose doesn’t make the MVP vote a sham. The fact that no one is surprised about it makes Rose a sham. Everyone knew there were more qualified people to be MVP. Just like people knew Blake Griffin was the 3rd or 4th best dunker in the slam dunk contest. But don’t let merit get in the way of a great storyline. A storyline won MVP — the true MVP got screwed.
He has nearly no help offensively. Nobody on that team can consistently create their own shot except for Rose. They need him to make the play offensively almost every trip down. If Chicago can sign J.R. Smith or Nick Young over the summer, he would be more efficient. No, I am not saying to let Nick walk away.
The same argument applies to Howard
He has no help defensively. The only difference is that Rose turns his team’s anemic offense into an average one whereas Howard turns his team’s sieve like defense into an elite one. Oh, and Howard is better on offense.
Curious
What team is better, Bulls without Rose or Magic without Howard?
Bogans, Deng, Boozer, Noah, Watson
vs
Nelson, Turkaglu, Richardson, Bass, Anderson
Gosh, now that I type it, both of those teams suck.
by MR on May 25, 2011 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually was pulling for Howard as MVP earlier in the year and my opinion hasn't really changed.
But again the number of wins is paramount in MVP voting. How can the Most Valuable Player not even lead his team to win their division?
Oh and by the way who is over rating Boozer now?
I think both teams would not be great
Chicago without Rose is essentially Indiana – tons of decent players up front, but nobody to get tough hoops. Their frontcourt depth ensures they’d be mediocre.
Orlando without Howard is closer to Toronto, because they would be abysmal defensively and because they rely so much on Howard to open up their own offense.
This team would win 50 games
PG: Average player
SG: Ronnie Brewer
SF: Luol Deng
PF: Carlos Boozer
C: Joakim Noah
Noah is one of the 5 best centers in the league, and Boozer is a top 10 PF, Deng is a well-above average SF, Brewer is a great rebounder, passer, and an incredible defender. Throw in an average point guard a la Delonte West or Luke Ridnour and that team wins 50 games easily.
Boozer and Deng are more than capable scorers. Rose takes about 8 more shots than the average point guard. Its not too hard to spread that out among 11 other guys.
Boozer is a good #2 or 3 scorer. Double team him and he’s toast.
Deng is a great defender. His offense is either spoon fed to him or he forces something that more often than not is a disaster.
The Bulls without Rose have no offense. Double Boozer and nobody else on the team (except maybe Korver) will make them pay. Depending on Deng to hit shots does not net you 50 wins.
That theory just doesn't hold up
It’s exactly what people said about Denver before the ‘Melo trade, but look what happened. The shots ’Melo took were spread out and efficiency didn’t suffer. In fact, they improved!
You throw around 50 wins like it's easy.
You know that only 9 teams in the league won 50? You’re telling me that the team you propose is better than Portland, New Orleans, Memphis, Atlanta?
To me they look like Milwaukee without Jennings. They won 35 WITH him.
Noah > Bogut
Boozer > Mbah a Moute/Gooden
Deng > Maggette
Brewer > Salmons
Brandon Jennings right now is just a volume scorer who’s inefficient.
Noah is a better defender who can only score on garbage plays, Bogut can create offense. Same for Deng. Brewer is not better than Salmons.
The larger point is that if you think the Bulls without Rose wins 50 games then you are delusional.
They would be the best rebounding team in the league
as they are now. Noah, Boozer, and Deng can score efficiently. Bogut was pretty inefficient last season (49.6 TS%) compared to Noah (57.9% TS) and they scored the same number of points per36. Deng is an excellent off the ball player on offense. Brewer is a better rebounder and defender than Maggette, and neither are efficient scorers.
What reason do you think
that the Bulls will remain at the same efficiency with out Rose? Would they get as many easy baskets or be open for as many shots if they didn’t have a 1 who draws in the defense or who can kind find the open shooter? Would they be able to run the floor as well as they do?
by hambonejackson on May 26, 2011 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m sure Deng would get just as many open looks without Rose, right? Right? Nobody would ever think to double Boozer. Noah would get just as many easy looks from Watson, West, or Ridnour breaking down the defense.
Here are the changes in the TS% of each of the Bulls four starters from their career average to this season (when they played with the “MVP” version of Rose).
Brewer: -4.2%
Deng: +1.7%
Boozer: -3.1%
Noah: +1.2 %
How convincing!
I can do this all day. It’s funny how confident I am in my opinion.
by zl on May 26, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
So KLove (mvp candidate you say) + DRose (actual MVP) + Beasley = lucky to win 30
but luke ridnour and the Bulls 2-4 is a 50 win team? Where is the logic in that?
Beasley is a terrible player
So KLove + DRose + no one else = 30 wins. yep. I don’t think you guys understand just how amazingly bad the rest of minnesota’s roster is.
by zl on May 26, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Beasley is not a terrible player
He is 20pt/45%FG scorer….that is decent production no matter how you want to spin it. No he isnt great or whatever, but to call KLove an MVP candidate who is just being held back because of how terrible Beasley plays is pretty absurd. The TWolves are god awful because no one on that team including Kevin Love plays any defense
This team would win 30 games
PG: Jameer Nelson
SG: Jason Richardson
SF: Hedo Turkoglu
PF: Brandon Bass
C: Average player
You are so wrong about their bench being better than Chicago's
Chicago has a great bench. They have depth. They have scoring. And they have defense.
They have no scoring on their bench.
That’s their problem.
If Korver could hit a shot they would be better off, but still everyone else on the team but Rose and Boozer (maybe Deng) are essentially defensive specialists.
Gibson can score
Korver can score. Korver led the league in 3pt shots in the fourth quarter. I know he has played poorly in the playoffs. But he was solid throughout the season.
I did mention Korver but he’s been in a season long slump. Gibson needs help if he’s going to score.
Take 25% of the teams points and half of its assists away and guys like Gibson, Korver, Deng are not going to be able to fill in the difference.
Obviously
That’s where Luke Ridnour comes in. Jeez.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on May 28, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
this team will win 23 games
pg- wall
sg- young
sf- lewis
pf- blatche
c- mcgee
by les boulez bomber on May 26, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, no, no
The reason why Chicago was a great team this year was defense. They dominated the boards and forced bad shots. They are a very deep team. They would easily be in the playoffs without Rose. Do you really think the best defensive team in the league would fail to miss the playoffs? You’ll look at offense way too much. Yes, Rose didn’t have great offense players around him. He had amazing defensive players. That means the players around him were good. Yet another Derrick Rose for MVP myth.
In contrast, Howard had average offensive players around him, but their defense was terrible.
by zeke5123 on May 26, 2011 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Bulls played at a slightly faster pace
1.4 points is a legitimate difference. They also played about half a possession faster a game. They would still be better than the Bucks. And still be a playoff team.
what do you think caused the Bulls to play a faster pace?
1.4pts is a legit difference, but the Bucks still allowed the 3rd fewest points in the league and missed the postseason….because they could not score
As I said before
Chicago without Rose is a lot like the Bucs.
Great defense and limited scoring options. Although the Bucs have Jennings.
So maybe the Rose-less Bulls slip into the 8th seed. Whoopie.
The league MVP is almost exclusively chosen from one of the top 2-3 teams. Orlando was not among them.
I agree with Zeke5123 that great defensive teams are more likely to make the playoffs than not.
That said, you still need to score more than your opponent.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on May 26, 2011 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
The Bucks missed the playoffs by 2.0 games
That 1.4 pts more than makes up for 2.0 games. They’d probably be a 6 seed in all reality.
if they played faster to get the 1.4pts, they'd give up more points
no one one the Bucks can consistently score/create, that’s why they missed the playoffs despite having such a great defense. You put Derrick Rose on that team and who knows how good they would be, he’s basically the difference between the Bulls and the Bucks
The point of the speed
Is that the Bulls defense allowed fewer points per game, while facing slightly more possessions. Therefore, their defense is even better than 1.4 PPG.
And, we are only talking about half a possession a game. It wasn’t like Rose turned the Bulls into a running team.
The Bucks' problem was offense
not defense. The Bulls were better than the Bucks on both sides of the floor
by zl on May 26, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
You know what really hurt them? Jennings' shooting percentage
He was under 40% from the field again i believe. It’s not that his jumper sucks, its pretty sweet imho but i think he just needs more balance on it to be effective shooting of the dribble.
If the Bucks played the same strong D at the same pace but Jennings would have hit one more shot each and every game than he did, i think they would have made the play offs.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on May 26, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Rose is the best Bulls player playing in the NBAs 3rd largest market
he is only in his 3rd year and no one can say how much improvement the Bulls made this season can be attributed to any one player. Seems like he is the League MVP to me.
Look
Fact is that the Bulls without Rose and the Magic without Howard would both suck.
But one of those teams had the best record in the league and one of them had the 8th best record in the league and didn’t even win their division.
I thought Howard was a legit contender too. But it really revolves around what player makes one of the great teams great that year. And the Magic weren’t great in 10-11.
To give it to a member of the 8th best team in the league would be almost unprecedented. For that to happen you’d have to have a guy who was completely dominant. I don’t think Howard was that this year. Give them another 6 wins and I think we’re talking.
by MR on May 26, 2011 12:11 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think the easiest way to look at the MVP
is to line up players and you have the 1st pick of player to set up a 5 on 5 pick up game, which player do you want on your team? I think its a toss up between James and Howard.
by hambonejackson on May 26, 2011 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
THAT'S NOT HOW THE VOTERS OR THE LEAGUE LOOK AT THE MVP AWARD.
Sorry if you don’t like their criteria. “Most VALUABLE Player” not “Best Player”.
Its most valuable player
but since you say its not their criteria, you failed to specify what that criteria is.
by hambonejackson on May 26, 2011 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I've said it a couple of times in this post
Boils down to the most crucial player among the handful of top teams.
Weight goes to both how important they are to their team as well as how the team does in the standings.
I’m surprised how many people are confused about this award.
If that were true
Then Bryant should have a minimum of 6 MVPs by now. James should have I don’t know how many. Wade would have multiple awards. So would Howard. Nowitzki should not even be considered since the Mavs would be in the play offs without him. James should not be in consideration, because Miami would be in the play offs without him. So, would the Bulls be in the play offs without Rose? Maybe.
by hambonejackson on May 26, 2011 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Kobe, James, Wade and Howard should have won 15 of the last 8 MVP awards?
I don’t think Wade or James are in consideration as long as they are playing together. Let me rephrase that. They won’t win as long as they are playing together.
by MR on May 26, 2011 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions
They negate each other.
My point was, some players are capable of taking just about any team they are handed and take them to the playoffs. Bryant, Howard, Wade, James.Take those players off their respective bad teams and those teams go in to rebuild mode Shaq did one better in his hey day. He’d get you a ring. Rose is not that good but that isn’t the criteria. The real criteria; the MVP is for promotional purposes only. Rose is promotional. The Bulls have Noah, Boozer, and Deng up front. They have a pretty good front line. I see no reason to think a team with that front line would not be seen as a play off caliber team. In fact, they would think, if only they had a really good 1 to go with them. Now, take Howard out of Orlando, and its rebuild mode. They have nothing. They would scatter that team to 4 winds. Even Bryant has Artest, Gasol and Odom. Not a very good team, but if Bynum is healthy, they have something up front. So, Howard deserves it, because he has the shittiest team around him. Before that it was James and before that it was Bryant, although Wade had some pretty bad teams. So, I suppose Wade might have stolen a couple from Bryant. So again, it comes down to the pick up game. If that were the criteria.
by hambonejackson on May 26, 2011 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions
You severly discount how good the Bulls roster is by focusing on offense
The reason the Bulls had a much better record than the Magic is due to a much better roster. There were multiple games where Howard was scoring 35 points, grabbing 15 rebounds, playing stellar defense, taking 15 shots, and still lost. Yep, that is on Howard.
by zeke5123 on May 26, 2011 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well it definitely shows that he doesn't have a
big impact on games. Howard is a great player but if you put up those numbers in a lost, then how much are you really helping your team?
by ThePGPhenomenon on May 26, 2011 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Or it could show how that the other eleven guys on the court are terrible.
This makes no sense. coring 30+ points, grabbing a ton of rebounds, playing great defense doesn’t have an effect on the game? Pure lunacy.
by zeke5123 on May 26, 2011 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My point is
How can you consider him an MVP if he is not causing his team to win with all those stats? It doesn’t matter how bad his other teammates are, if his team isn’t winning than how valuable can you be? If that was the case we might as well give MVP consideration to Kevin Love and other players that play on losing team. I don’t see how getting nice stats matter when the whole objective is to win the game.
by ThePGPhenomenon on May 26, 2011 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree that Howard was a legit contender for the award.
If I had a vote I would have a hard time choosing.
But then I’d look at the standings and see that Howard’s team finished 8th in the league and the other primary candidate’s team finished first.
You think the NBA finals MVP is going to be the best player on the LOSING team?
First off, his team did win.
Let us do a little thought exercise.
Let us take eleven average guys from Bulletsforver. Then, lets add Dwight Howard to that team. Then, let’s play an average college team. We’d probably lose, in spite of DH12. But would any player on the college team be more valuable than Dwight Howard? Would not Howard still be the most valuable player? If it wasn’t for Dwight, we would’ve been run off the court!
In the same way, a guy on a losing team can be more valuable.
by zeke5123 on May 26, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
But
Why wouldn’t the best player on that college team be the MVP, after all they won the game right? That’s like me going to the park and playing ball with four scrubs and I decide I’m not going to pass the ball and I jack up most of the shots and score 75% of our points, but we lose, does that make me an MVP?
If you lose, again, how valuable are you? There are tons of players that have put up big numbers on bad teams, but when it’s all said and done, your team is still losing, which means you are not good enough for your team to win, which means your team will probably need better players, just to win.
by ThePGPhenomenon on May 26, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
I can’t take this anymore. The idea that you can’t be helping your team that much if they lose is the most illogical and ridiculous notion. It makes no senses. I’m going to explode if I have to read anymore of these idiotic opinions
by zl on May 26, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
You have the wrong horse in this debate
The only MVP candidate jacking shots was Derrick Rose. Dwight Howard shot close to 60%. Pretty much the opposite of jacking shots.
You miss the point though. If you go on the court, jack shots, dont pass, score most of your teams points but lose, you were not the MVP. Mostly, because the way you were playing was likely inefficient. It does not lead to success. We know the way Dwight Howard plays leads to success. We have historical example after example. His numbers translate to adding value, not because he was shot jacking, but because those numbers lead to victories.
In the same vein, is Asik a more valuable rookie than Blake Griffin? Or John Wall? Well, Asik’s team won and Griffin’s team didn’t. Wall’s team didn’t. So must be true…
The point you are trying to make by being absurd escapes me.
I’ve clearly and repeatedly stated
Weight goes to both how important they are to their team as well as how the team does in the standings.
Look at the list of MVPs. It’s populated almost exclusively by the best player on one of the best 2-3 teams in the league.
I’m not making this stuff up. That’s what the award is. Sorry if some people don’t like that. Maybe it’s stupid. Maybe it’s a bad criteria. But that is clearly what the award is.
If Dwight Howard had won the award this year it would have been the least number of team wins by the winner’s team since 1987 when MJ won while averaging 35 points, 5.5 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 3.2 steals, 1.6 blocks, shot .535, and played 40.4 minutes per game. You think Howard’s season was on that level?
by MR on May 26, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Dayum!?
35 points, 5.5 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 3.2 steals, 1.6 blocks, shot .535, and played 40.4 minutes per game.
In 1987 i was having trouble learning to tie my own shoes.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on May 26, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Baseball is a great example where faulty reasoning has been laid to rest.
Last year, the AL Cy Young was Felix Hernandez. He had the lowest win totals in a very long time. Ten years ago he would not have won. One criteria was the pitcher had to have x number of wins. But thanks to sabermetrics and a deconstruction of poor arguments, a change in criteria was reached.
Just because sports writers are mistaken and use poor criteria does not mean that we should continue to use that criteria. Instead, we should criticize those writers until they adopt better criteria. It worked in baseball. It can work in basketball.
The point I was attempting to make
Was that a team’s success does not demonstrate, prima facie, that a player on the winning team is more valuable than the player on the losing team. By being absurd, it is easy to see that. Should winning account for some? Yeah, if two candidates are very close, give it to the player who’s team won more games. We can’t quantify everything. But when there is a huge chasm between the two players. anyone sticking to the more wins argument sticks to such absurd arguments as Asik being more valuable than Griffin.
The Cy Young is a “best player” award.
MVP is not.
by MR on May 26, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
You missed the whole point
The Cy Young’s criteria changed from a, frankly, stupid one to a smarter one. You roughly said teams W/L are the criteria even if that is stupid. Well, in other major sports criteria has changed because a small population repeatedly pointed out the stupidity of the conventional criteria. Well, same thing here.
I think I got the point.
The Cy Young is attempting to reward the “best” pitcher. How they determine who is “best” has evolved to account for being a great pitcher on a bad team. One is not penalized because the hitters suck or the defense sucks etc. That way you can more accurately identify the “best” pitcher. Good.
The MVP award is not attempting to reward the “best” player. It is attempting to find who is the most “valuable”. It’s a hazy criteria but has come to mean the best/standout player who meant the most to his team from among the top handful of teams in the league.
Put it this way: Dwight Howard was about as valuable TO HIS TEAM as Rose. Maybe a little more maybe a little less, but certainly close. If Howard missed the season then one of the mid-pack teams would have sucked. If Rose missed the season then the top team in the league would have sucked. Therefore Rose’s impact on the league, therefore his “value” was greater than Howard’s.
That is the way the award has been handed out and therefore I think Rose was a deserving winner. If you think the criteria should change then fine I wouldn’t disagree. Maybe it should. But that’s a different discussion.
I think they are one and the same
Mike Prada pointed out there is no “criteria” for determining the MVP — it is open ended. You, correctly, pointed out that past criteria heavily incorporated wins. In the same way that the Cy Young award goes to the best pitcher, allowing the voters to determine what constitutes best, the MVP award goes to the most valuable player, allowing the voters to determine what constitutes valuable.
In the case of the Cy Young, the criteria of what is best changed. They moved away from one method of determining best to another method of determining best, largely because they were effectively criticized.
I want the criteria to change in the MVP vote, that is what is used to determine who is most valuable. That is linked to arguments such as Dwight Howard vs. Derrick Rose. It is only through showing who should have won and why that the criteria will ever change.
If they had not done this in baseball, the Al Cy Young would’ve been Derrick Rosed, being given to C.C. Sabatthia. It is high time to start this process in basketball.
Well to me “valuable” and “best” are two different things. And I think they are correctly judging “valuable” when the record of the team is heavily weighted.
I don’t think team record should apply with the other awards ROY, 6th man, Defensive Player, MIP.
So I’m glad we understand each other. But so sad that we disagree. ;-(
by MR on May 27, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
But
how is value that hazy of a description? Wouldn’t value simply mean the player that contributes the most to winning games or, in other words, improves his team’s win total the most. I think most would agree that the Magic’s win total would have decreased more without Howard than the Bull’s without Rose.
I'm just going to repeat the posts you haven't responded to:
Why should the quality of a player’s teammates influence whether or not he wins the MVP award? The Bulls won more games than the Magic because Derrick Rose had better teammates than Dwight Howard.
There is a high correlation between two statistics and winning the MVP award. Those two statistics are:
1. Team wins
2. Points scored per game
Don’t tell me that the MVP award isn’t based on statistics because it is. It’s just based on the wrong statistics. If Derrick Rose had been on the Wolves this year and had the exact same season, they would have won about 30 games and he wouldn’t have been in the discussion. Why? Because he had worse teammates, something that has nothing to do with the "value" of a player.
by zl on May 26, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll take a stab at that.
Why should the quality of a player’s teammates influence whether or not he wins the MVP award? The Bulls won more games than the Magic because Derrick Rose had better teammates than Dwight Howard.
I contend you’re focusing on the wrong thing. MR wrote earlier about Steve Nash and his ability to bring out the best in his teammates while pulling everyone over the finish line. I think he would suggest Steve Nash simply made his team the best in the regular season, and as it is the MOST valuable player, it stands to reason that the edge goes to the winningest player. In a vacuum, DH12 all the way. I am not a DRose fan, no disrespec to his proponents. I probably agree with you, to be honest, re: DRose not deserving it. I think Thibs had just as much to do with the Bulls dominance as DRose did, if not more.
There is a high correlation between two statistics and winning the MVP award. Those two statistics are:
1. Team wins
2. Points scored per game
Don’t tell me that the MVP award isn’t based on statistics because it is. It’s just based on the wrong statistics. If Derrick Rose had been on the Wolves this year and had the exact same season, they would have won about 30 games and he wouldn’t have been in the discussion. Why? Because he had worse teammates, something that has nothing to do with the “value” of a player.
Ludicrous. Points are impactful on wins, wins are statistics that are fairly reliable indicators of how good a team is. Perhaps analytics will come to bear more heavily in the future, but as it stands, this was a predictable result according to historical precedent.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on May 28, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess the counter to your point
Is that wins are not necessarily a good indicator for how good a player is. I agree that can be used, but only when two players are extremely close.
To me, Dirk and Dwight were my two MVP picks. I could be talked into Dirk because he won more. Maybe, we don’t have in stats that little something that Dirk used to push his team over the top. But we aren’t missing so much in stats to justify using wins as the only measure or the most important measure or even one that holds significant weight. Instead, it could be used as a tiebreaker or a small bonus.
Right
But as MR said before, it’s not an award for the Most ‘Good’ Player (relatively objective), it’s Most Valuable (relatively subjective.
Dirk and Dwight for me, too. If I have my way, Dirk will be Finals MVP…
As to your last point, I don’t necessarily disagree. That’s simply not the way things are, and we aren’t arguing about the way they should be.
Also, remember Mike’s point about big stories, a single star emerging to lead his team to the best record in the NBA while the SUPERTEAM struggled…imho DRose benefited from a lot of the positive energy writers were expecting to funnel to the Heat. As they were still working out chemistry well into the season, when the dam finally broke, the MVP selection was a discussion in name only.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on May 28, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Responding to a couple points
There’s a distinction that needs to be made between the literal definition of the MVP and the way it has been interpreted historically.
The literal definition of the MVP does not exist. This is intentional. When the NBA hands out its awards ballot to writers, they go into great detail about who is eligible for all the other awards. With the MVP, though, they say pretty much nothing. This is by design. The league wants the award to be vague so we spent all this time talking about it. It’s a way to drum up interest and coverage.
The applied interpretation tends to be “story of the year.” This is why mediocre or decent teams don’t get love in the voting. It’s hard to be a real story if you aren’t one of the best teams in the league. Like it or not, Rose’s emergence was a huge story this season, so he won MVP. Kobe won MVP in 08 because that was seen as the year where he finally stopped being a bad teammate, even though the reason LA emerged had more to do with the Gasol trade. Nash won MVP in 06 because few expected his team to be that good, even though the Boris Diaw trade was a huge factor in Phoenix’s rise. It’s why Malone and Barkley won in 97 and 93 even though Jordan was way better.
Now, “story of the year” isn’t a bad interpretation, but it is just an interpretation. You could easily interpret it a whole number of different ways and you’re no more right or wrong than that. That’s what makes MVP discussions so interesting and yet so frustrating. There really is no right criteria.
Going back a few years, here’s how I personally would have handed out MVPs.
’11: Howard
’10: LeBron
’09: LeBron
’08: Chris Paul. To lead that Hornets team to 56 wins was incredible. They were just a game behind the Lakers in the regular season, and he had nobody anywhere close to as good as Gasol on his team.
’07: Dirk was a fair choice in a year where everyone else kind of sucked.
’06: LeBron by a nose over Kobe, who had 15-win talent around him and still won 45 games.
’05: Nash, because of a lack of other good candidates
by Mike Prada on May 26, 2011 10:51 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Yep. They should call it 'the best selling success story' award
a single statistic doesn’t tell you much, but grabing a whole bunch of (advanced) statistics, you could probably tell who the most valuable player was for his team, relative to their success.
It would be a lot more accurate for every player award imho. It would also be a lot less interesting to talk about it.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to dougie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on May 26, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
the best player on the team with the best record is halfway to receiving the award by default. add in a good story and there you go. Rose is MVP. that is how these things go. just accept it and discount the award if you dont agree.
i agree with some others, it is howard though. that team is horrible without him- just horrible- even with arenas.
by les boulez bomber on May 26, 2011 6:30 PM EDT reply actions
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