Keys to the Palace: Good Riddance and Excitement
by Jon Kelman on Apr 17, 2011 10:41 PM EDT
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Keys to the Palace
| Player | Week 25 PER | Week 24 PER | Difference | Comment |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| John Wall | 15.8 | 15.6 | 0.2 | It is fitting that he is the only player to get a full Key in the season's final week. He only shot 5-for-17 against the Celts, but shot 15 free throws (making 14) to lead the team to victory and his 10-5-4-4-1 line with no fouls and 1 turnover in 24 minutes against the Cavs is awesome. I think he at least met everyone's expectations this season, and the only reason he hasn't been a bigger story nationwide is Blake Griffin having an even better year. Other young PGs have taken a huge leap forward in year 2, so lets hope Wall can do the same and show that he is the franchise cornerstone we need. |
Guest Passes
| Player | Difference | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Andray Blatche | 16.9 | 16.8 | 0.1 | Even though he fouled out in 29 minutes against Boston, this was another good week. Was it health that limited him earlier this year? Was he invigorated by having the D-Leagues and Mo Evans around? Can he only stay intense for short periods? I have a TON of questions about Dray right now. I can't see him being traded this offseason mostly because we don't have another PF who can start, but his stock is relatively high right now. |
| JaVale McGee | 17.4 | 17.3 | 0.1 | He had an okay game against a Boston team that is soft in the middle, and then a solid game in limited minutes against the Cavs. I am not sure what to make of his season. I had incredibly high expectations and thought this would be his breakout season and while there was improvement, there was not a that breakout. His defense is clearly the most exciting development, as he was 2nd in the league in blocked shots per game and was a menacing presence. Next year I expect big things....... |
| Maurice Evans | 10.9 | 10.7 | 0.2 | He had one awful shooting game and one great, so I think Guest Pass is safe. Looking ahead to free agency, I think Arron Afflalo could be a great long-term piece, but if we can't get him, I think a veteran '3 and D' SF is the way to go. To that end, Shane Battier is appealing, but I have no problem with Mo coming back to be the veteran leader of the team. I can't ignore the fact that he was lovingly mobbed by his Hawks teammates because he was such a locker room favorite. |
| Yi Jianlian | 10.1 | 9.8 | 0.3 | Games with 10 and 12 rebounds are what get him a Guest Pass despite a couple poor shooting nights. Unfortunately, the Guest Pass is how I would describe his time in DC, a I can't see him back in DC next year and believe this will go down as a 1 year tryout. |
| Othyus Jeffers | 13.7 | 13.7 | 0 | A week of what we've come to expect to from O, but as I described last week his contributions to this team go beyond the box score. He has a chance to be here next year, although a couple high draft picks won't make that an easy task. At the very least, I hope the hard work and hustle he has seemed to instill in this team lives on. |
Locked Out
| Player | Difference | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Larry Owens | 11 | 14.9 | -3.9 | His performance in Cleveland was that of someone extremely nervous; his shot was all over the place. I appreciate the energy and time in DC, but don't see him back here next year. |
| Mustafa Shakur | 6.8 | 6.7 | 0.1 | He barely passed the minutes threshold to qualify for this week, and did not perform well in shooting 4-for-13 in his 1 game. I do like that he plays with a ton of confidence despite being a fringe guy playing for his job. Even if Young Sushi is back next year, the team will likely want a 4th guard on the roster, so I wouldn't be shocked to see him on the team. |
| Kevin Seraphin | 8.4 | 8.3 | 0.1 | 8 fouls in 38 minutes of play, at least 1 moving pick, and nothing exciting to offset what was more of the same. Don't get me wrong, he has exceeded most of our expectations. It was unclear he was even coming to the US when the Wiz drafted him, and the initial scouting reports were that he was incredibly raw, so the fact that he could play in the NBA and show some budding skills is fantastic. I am curious as to what would happen if the Wiz end up drafting Enes Kanter. |
| Jordan Crawford | 12.6 | 13.8 | -1.2 | 2-for-14 against the Cavs, and 17 points on 19 shots against Boston is all you need to know. Looking back, I think he played his best ball in the 2 games subbing for Wall as our PG. The relatively bad week does not overshadow what has been a terrific time with the Wizards for JC. I am excited to see how he meshes with Wall and Young Sushi. |
NOTE: Rashard Lewis, Josh Howard, Nick Young, Hamady Ndiaye, and Trevor Booker were left off this week's Keys to the Palace because they did not receive enough playing time for a fair evaluation.
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I think these keys were all spot on.
With Seraphin and his rookie year in the NBA, I wonder if it was better for him to have played in the NBA now as opposed to playing another year in Europe before coming to this side of the pond. To me I lean toward the fact that it was good for him to come into the NBA now, because our team is rebuilding and we are auditioning players to see if they can make it in the league and if they can play on this team. Another question I have is why he wasn’t sent to the D-League for assignment, where he could have received more playing time. His biggest weakness in the NBA to me is the fact that it just seems that he fouls at an absurdly high rate.
I like Seraphin's potential
I do think he’s going to get a little bit taller. He’s already grown man strong, and he has amazing touch on his post moves. He’s an asset for sure though, with how young he is and his willingness to bang and rebound, also the ONLY bigman on our team that will ever set a real pick
Get taller?
Most people are done growing at 21
nope, seraphin is 21, Wall 20
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to douggie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Apr 19, 2011 4:47 AM EDT up reply actions
+1 that Blatche is valuable
…mostly valuable to us, because now that our eyes are focused on the next two NBA drafts, it looks to me that we don’t have a clear picture of many ready-to-play big men that will be available. This year, there’s Kanter, and maybe some others that will need at LEAST two years to develop. Ditto with the 2012 draft. Because we don’t want to wait THAT long to have a legitimate 4 and 5 to pair with Wall (or else he leaves town for NY/LA/Mia), I think it’s fair to say that we either need to continue with our own player development and hope it works out, or trade for a big man. Maybe, given the rarity of big men available, Blatche represents one of our best chances.
I guess I’m saying that I respect EG’s decisons a good deal more. As a GM, you’ve got to look three to five years in advance, not just the immediate future. So maybe Ernie read the tea leaves and thought, “sh_t, what are the chances of me lucking into Kanter or the #1 pick again in order to trade for a 4 or a 5? Guess I’m stuck re-signing that Blatche kid.”
2013
Blatche mcgee booker seraphin and n’diaye are here to stay and shuold be developed further, regardless if we draft a big or not.
Let us stockpile and then the summer of 2013 is the time to see what we got, make a trade and sign fa’s to fill our remaining needs.
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to douggie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Apr 18, 2011 6:51 AM EDT up reply actions
disagreed
seraphin and n’diaye are eminently movable.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
Yes, if the right deal comes along they are movable
But so is everybody else on this roster except john
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to douggie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Apr 19, 2011 4:48 AM EDT up reply actions
The most telling comment ever
Noah (Lafayette, CA)
David u rock! Who is the most underachieving and or overachieving person in the NBA?
David Thorpe (12:18 PM)
Blatche gets my underachieving award. He should be an MVP candidate. I don’t believe in overachievers, except for men like me who marry so well.
Year over Year
The three holdovers from last year to this year were Blatche, McGee and Young. Let’s look at some numbers to see if they improved.
Going into the year, McGee had played only 2100 minutes over his first two seasons. This year he played 2200 minutes.
McGee’s Simple Rating on 82games.com went from -4.2 in the prior season to 2.7 for this season. His PER improved from 17.0 to 17.4. The PER of opposing centers dropped from 24.8 to 17.7.
Going into the year, Young had played 4400 minutes over 3 years. He played about 2000 minutes this season.
Young’s Simple Rating on 82games.com went from 0.1 to 1.9. His PER improved from 10.7 to 14.5. The PER of opposing SG went from 15.8 to 13.9.
Going into the year, Blatche had played 6500 minutes over 5 years. He played about 2200 minutes this season.
Blatche’s Simple Rating on 82games.com went from 1.3 to 1.4. His PER dropped from 17.6 to 16.9. The PER of opposing PF increased from 16.8 to 19.1.
Net, net: the numbers say that Blatche got slightly worse, especially when considering defense. Given that he had previously logged 6500 minutes, maybe he’s reached his peak? The issue with Andray seems to be the desire (or lack thereof) to improve.
Young improved, including on defense. Given he had played 4400 minutes, he may have room for some incremental improvement next year.
McGee improved quite a bit, especially on defense. Given that he had played only 2100 minutes prior to this season, he still has room for a lot of improvement.
by Izman on Apr 18, 2011 7:55 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
What about the injury?
Good stuff, generally supporting patience with the young’uns, but I think Blatche’s injury makes evaluating his progress impossible. It was a tale of two seasons for him, with the break being at the end of January:
Through January (per 36 minutes):
41 games
16.3pts 8.3reb 2ast 0.9blk 1.5stl 2.9fl 2.7to
TS: 47.3%
Post-January (per 36 minutes):
23 games
20.8pts 9.5reb 3.1ast 0.8blk 1.8stl 3.3fl 3.1to
TS: 53.8%
Both sets are fairly small sample sizes, but that’s a big enough effect size to say there’s improvement. You could argue that his first-half struggles were not due to the injury, but that’s the simplest and most obvious explanation.
"Be patient or be a Heat fan" - MR
Gee, I'm having deja vu
Didn’t we have this same discussion last season (2009-10)? When Andray closed out the season strong in February and March 2010?
And, it seems to me I remember him having a good February and March to close out the 2008-09 season as well…
And didn’t he have a pretty good March in 2008?
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Seems like Odom
With the ups and downs and consistency. And like Odom with the candy, it’s probably similar vices that hinder his play. That’s why we can keep him, but like Odom, he should at best be our 3rd best player behind 2 superb talents. Your two big dogs can’t be inconsistent players. That’s why it can’t be JaVale either.
Look, I'm not saying that his foot injury didn't affect him....
But he injured the foot in the Summer 2010… He had surgery to fix on June 30, 2010.
He was expected to miss 3 months, but be available for Training camp.
He had the protective boot removed the last week of August and started running the second week in September 2010. He came into Training camp overweight, lethargic and lazy.
And he couldn’t get in game shape until the last 1/3 of the year?
No wonder the Wizards put out feelers at the trade deadline…….
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Similar injuries have ended careers.
And it wasn’t just his foot. Early in the season he developed left knee soreness (compensating for the healing right foot), amongst other bumps and bruises. I’m not trying to play up his injuries, because I don’t think its necessarily warranted or fair. But I don’t think downplaying them is fair either.
His conditioning is poor, but if you look at it from the overview perspective, he’s only been seriously working on his conditioning for two years now (since the jersey number change in summer 09), and a good 6 months of that was lost to a broken foot. The blame for that is totally on his shoulders, but from a glass half full perspective, he will almost certainly improve, and its likely that he will improve tremendously.
Add that to the fact that, for the entire season, he was by far the best big, drew the toughest defensive assignments, had no low post backup or helpside assistance to speak of, routinely had to cover for McGee (or Seraphin, or Yi, or Booker, or Armstrong, or H), had to battle his man as well as McGee’s (or Seraphin’s, or Yi’s, or Booker’s, or Armstrong’s, or H’s) man for rebounds, routinely took the fall (or chose not to waste a foul) for McGee (or Seraphin, or Yi, or Booker, or Armstrong, or H) not making the proper rotation or getting beat in the post, etc.
Similar to the sentiment around here that McGee would look a lot better next to a stalwart 4, Blatche would look a lot better next to a stalwart 5. IMO part of the reason Blatche looked better at the end of the season is because the level of play at center (McGee) improved. In the same way, McGee looked better next to improved PF play (Blatche and a mid-to-late season Booker).
In short, our frontcourt as a whole was horrific (not that that’s a failure in year one of the rebuild when they’re all under 24), so it naturally follows that any individual frontcourt player would look worse than expected when examined in isolation.
As for consistency, gorebd brings up a good parallel with Odom, who took forever to get consistent. Scottie Pippen also took several seasons. Plenty of good bigs and wings take time to get consistent.
I wish it was likely he will improve tremendously
But it is also just as likely that he stays right where he is. Bringing it some nights, and then against solid competition, turning into a guy afraid to get closer than 15 feet to the basket.
I can’t buy the fourth paragraph at all. If Blatche supporters weren’t giving Javale credit for part of his success when closing out the ‘09-’10 campaign, then they can’t include him as part of Blatche’s failures this year. I mean, what was different from the end of ‘09-’10 season, to the start of this year(besides the injury which I already said, is on him)?
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
Stress fractures are inevitable when you kick as much ass as Trevor Booker does.
by returnofswagger on Apr 18, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Singleton (who would've been the second best big on this team) and being the focus of the offense.
Let’s not forget he also played well last year as the first big off the bench.
The injury is as much ‘on him’ as any other injury to any other athlete at any other time. By the way, it’s not unreasonable for foot injuries to slow bigs down significantly for a long time.
By the way, my ‘improve tremendously’ comment was in reference to his conditioning. I don’t expect his overall game to improve, but I do expect his conditioning and consistency to improve.
by jones-y on Apr 18, 2011 3:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I can see his conditioning improving too
And hopefully that goes far in changing his game as far as consistency goes.
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
Stress fractures are inevitable when you kick as much ass as Trevor Booker does.
by returnofswagger on Apr 18, 2011 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
So basically, the foot injury may have been the reason for his slow start(and middle) to the season. But there is no reason it should have been. Dray has proven it is tough for him to maintain energy and stay in game shape consistently. And after an injury, it takes even more hard work and effort to come back.
The foot injury should not have led to conditioning problems all the way up to the all-star break. But when it comes to a guy that is just not willing to put in the extra time, then it is going to be a major setback.
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
Stress fractures are inevitable when you kick as much ass as Trevor Booker does.
by returnofswagger on Apr 18, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Blatche had a solid year all year in 09-10
He didn’t just close out the season strong, he started it strong, and played well throughout. It was his first complete season.
Prior to that, I don’t specifically recall him having more or less success late in the season. I recall him as having a good statistical game here and there, and then disappearing for the next 5-10 games.
A really good way to look at it Izman
Here’s something else to ponder…. of the 30 starting Power Forwards in the NBA, Blatche ranks 26th in True Shooting percentage (his efficiency on sucks), and he ranks 28th in Defensive Rebound rate… (he can’t rebound either).
Of those players in the same general area in TS%, most are at least middling rebounders…. and most that are in the same general area in DRR are at least middling efficiency…. Blatche is poor at both… and the ONLY one worse is Rookie Ekpe Udoh of Golden State…and he only became a starter late in the year.
In my opinion, the Wizards will never be a contender with Andray Blatche as their starting Power Forward.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
by Rook6980 on Apr 18, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Those numbers right there should confirm that Dray should not be our starting Power Forward.
End of discussion.
by PhenomenalSwag on Apr 18, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
He's the starter until a better one comes along.
They’re not exactly easy to find.
Yeah,
but “better” should be EASY to find…..
He's "delightfully cranky"
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
If that was the case, then several teams, including the Wizards, would have 'better'
We’ve had this conversation a million times around here…
In addition, that list includes about fourteen or so players
that don’t create their own shots… that one fact right there gives all of them a huge bump in TS%, given that they’re scoring off of putbacks, P&Rs, oops, and open jumpers.
A fair comparison would be Blatche vs. the shot creators in that list. He’s still near the bottom, but the list is only half as long, and he’s also among the youngest of that group.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Somebody competing for a starting spot in the NBA,
like Booker, Seraphim, our 2011 draft picks, or whoever we fill in our roster with, should read this post. I would definitely like to see somebody step up and take Blatche’s minutes by consistently outplaying him.
For that matter, I wouldn’t mind seeing ’Dray improve his effort and efficiency because of somebody pushing him and hold his spot.
Just curious about the stats though, if Dray is so bad, why does he have a PER that’s above average and why did you look at DRR rather than overall rebound rate?
For a PF
His PER is terrible. The average is pulled down by less efficient perimeter players.
Simply not true
Average PER for all Power Forwards is 13.45.
If you just want to look at starers (which is not what you said, but is Rook’s comparison group), the average PER of the 38 Power Forwards playing 25+ minutes per game is 17.51, which is very close to what Blatche has been doing over the last two years.
More often then not an average starter at ages 23-24 becomes a good starter at ages 25-29.
"Be patient or be a Heat fan" - MR
My take too
1) McGee and Blatche aren’t a good pair. That 2 player combo doesn’t make any of the top fifty 2-player combos on the Wiz this past year. While they appear in 4 of the top 5 five-player combos, that’s because their substitutes played very poorly.
2) I have no faith that EG will not be his usual complacent self in this draft. I have visions of an unknown and unproven European being “sold” as having great feet or something else of little value.
3) The Wiz may need the Altanta pick to trade up for Williams. If they can get Williams with a lucky draw (either 1 or 2), then the Wiz should trade Blatche and the Altanta pick to move up and also get Kanter in this draft. Again, I don’t see that happening with EG, but that’s what they need.
4) The 2012 draft will feature Barnes and Sullinger. The Wiz will not have a shot at either. It’s this year or bust.
The 3rd-5th pick in the draft for Blatche and a late round pick?
Never going to happen. If we want to get rid of him that bad, why would someone trade that much to get him? We would have to add McGee or Young to the mix and I am not comfortable giving up McGee.
Skins rule
Your rebound number for Blatche is way off
I’m going to assume it’s an honest mistake, but you’re comparing Blatche’s total rebound rate to everyone else’s defensive rebound rate. Blatche’s DRR was 18.7 this year, tied with David West for 22nd.
"Be patient or be a Heat fan" - MR
On Javale:
I had incredibly high expectations and thought this would be his breakout seasona bit unrealistic considering how raw he was coming in to the season. I actually thought he was another year away, and that next year would be his breakout year, and I still think that.
I don't think expectations were too high going into the year
He was playing with USA Basketball. There was a ton of buzz about all of the ball he played last summer. Then there was the hype about how Wall was going to be perfect for him.
I had really high expectations too, he just was not there yet which was a big letdown. He came around though and he’s gonna keep working on the little things.
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
Stress fractures are inevitable when you kick as much ass as Trevor Booker does.
by returnofswagger on Apr 18, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
he just was not there yet which was a big letdown.
And that’s why the expectations were unrealistic. I wouldn’t call it a letdown at all.
He started this year like a child learning to play basketball, and maybe how to run(call me harsh...)
I was letdown when the guy that had been in the NBA for two years didn’t know what position he played(after his coaches drilled it in his head), didn’t understand the goaltending rule, got pushed around like rag doll, and in general appeared to have no intent of cleaning up these problems.
He obviously came around, but if you expected the Javale that we all saw, then you sir, are a pessimist.
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
Stress fractures are inevitable when you kick as much ass as Trevor Booker does.
by returnofswagger on Apr 18, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
No I'm a realist (but I do have a mean streak of optimism)
I expected exactly what I saw.
by jones-y on Apr 18, 2011 3:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Griffin's numbers should be taken with a grain of salt
He’s been great – historically so – but a lot of people seem to forget that he stayed in college two years and missed an entire year last year. He’s in the same rookie class as Wall, but he’s actually as old as Derrick Rose and Kevin Love.
Follow me on twitter -
http://twitter.com/TheRealTPruitt
by pantslessyoda1 on Apr 18, 2011 11:05 AM EDT reply actions
Yeah but great is great
And Griffin is a great player. If he stays healthy, he’s a perennial all star at the very least.
That is a good point
No reason Wall won’t be near that level in 2-3 years.
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
Stress fractures are inevitable when you kick as much ass as Trevor Booker does.
by returnofswagger on Apr 18, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
2 things
I think the authors expectations for Mcgee were misplaced I thought he had a terrific 2nd half after a spotty 1st half. I think the jump in the 2nd half can be credited to the injuries on the team giving him an increased role in the offense. When all the vets were healthy he was just an after thought to throws the ball too which was a mistake. Blatche, Yi, Lewis and Howard all got too many shots at the expense of Mcgee. When Flip had to find other offense going to mcgee and Booker they began to respond pretty efficiently.Next year is the break out explosion thats possible from Mcgee if he goes to work for this to be his 1st season as fulltime starter getting reeal pt I think he played very well. 10,8,2.5.
The 2nd thing Blatche isn’t someone who can start for the Wiards and have the team grow into a consistent winner at pf. He’s an awful defender helpside and on ball he never cover the basket when Mcgee gets pulled out. A mentioned above he’s terrible on the defensive boards and his lack of efficiency shooting the ball is just dowbnright troubling. He gets so many touches offensively that it becomes comical how many possesion he bothces with negaive plays why we consistently gave him touches despite such futility is beyond me there would be games where he’d get 5 straight possesions and have a bad result in all 5. But we’d still pour the ball down to him.
I truly believe Mcee can be made our go to scorer as a big while we get another big who boards defends and bangs.
I think trading Blatche is the only thing that makes sense. The only caveat with this is the Zach Randolph effect it took him a while but he finally figured it out can Blatche figure something similar out and changed his game for the betterment of the team. I think not but you can never tell.
It took a team change for it to happen for Randolph maybe thats what needed for Blatche.
After watching those playoff games over the weekend
It seems that John Wall needs to model his game more after Chris Paul than Derrick Rose. John always gets compared to Rose, mostly because of the one-and-done with Calipari, but when you look at their games Wall is much more comparable to Paul.
DRose is quick, explosive, aggressive, great scorer, his game reminds me more of DWade to be honest. He is becoming one of the most unstoppable offensive players in the league.
CPaul is quick, smooth, fluid, crafty, great passer and a pure PG.
If you think about describing Walls game. He is fast, quick, but more smooth and fluid like Paul than explosive and aggressive like Rose. Wall is also a very willing passer in the same way that Paul is.
I know player comparisons get pretty redundant and are sometimes pointless, but I just wanted to make these observations and hope that John models his game after the best pure PG in the league because his skills are very relatable and adaptable to that type of game.
I love DRose's agressive play. He's perfect for Chi-town, in the MJ mold.
Even though Wall has great speed, He doesn’t have the verticality of Rose. I can’t wait to see Wall’s 2nd season. Hopefully a real threat.
by Janber on Apr 18, 2011 9:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I love DRose's agressive play. He's perfect for Chi-town, in the MJ mold.
Even though Wall has great speed, He doesn’t have the verticality of Rose. I can’t wait to see Wall’s 2nd season. Hopefully a real threat.
by Janber on Apr 18, 2011 9:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The irony is
I see Wall in the MJ role more than I see Rose. Wall is longer and physically more impressive than Rose and I thought Rose was physically impressive at Memphis. Wall is even more impressive. Wall is simply going to be bigger than Rose and he will make more of an impact on this team than Rose will on his. Wall uses his length and he is using it this season. He uses it to block shots, grab boards, steal the ball and when he shoots. He certainly uses it when he goes over the middle. I should put together tapes comparing Rose to Wall to demonstrate things Wall can do what no other player in the league can do at his size. I think if people can see what I see, they will see that Wall is in a class of his own right now. He is going to be a lot better than people think.
by hambonejackson on Apr 19, 2011 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions
People think Wall is going to be superb.
But he’s not more physically impressive than Rose, he’s different. Look at what Rose is doing these past few games….describing him as having a fighter’s body is really apt. He gets in their amongst the trees and does battle….there’s no other PG in the league coming close to that right now.
id be interested in a tape comparing those two
cuz to be blut, im not buying what you’re selling…but then again we are fans of the opposite player so i cant say either of us have an objective view
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
physically more impressive than Rose
What?!
(more) of an impact on this team than Rose will on his.
The Bulls ARE Rose and a bunch of good defensive players
I think if people can see what I see, they will see that Wall is in a class of his own right now. He is going to be a lot better than people think.
That’s a contradiction right there
Look, Wall has the potential to be really good, elite even. His rookie yr was good but not great ánd i agree with PhenomenalSwag that his game is more Paul-like than Rose-like. So, if he fulfill’s his potential he will not be impact full the way Rose is, but more the way Paul is as a true floor general.
I like my pointguard the Paul-way better but you have to have that second (scoring machine) superstar to go with that. Rose is the Lebron, Koby, Wade type superstar who can do it all on his own, Wall is not like that at all.
"I'll be lounging on the couch, just chillin in my snuggie, klick to MTV so they can teach my how to douggie" (Buno Mars, The lazy song)
Wall is not physically more impressive than Rose...
They are simply very different physically. Rose is like a more compact version of DWade, a complete attacker with a fighter’s body and a great flair for the dramatic… in Rose’s case with the passing and ball handling skills of an elite point guard thrown in for good measure.
John Wall’s physical gifts are length, leanness (about zero body fat), speed and vision. He does not have Chris Paul’s incredible court instinct, which is the special gift that allows CP3 to exceed the relative limitations of his height and strength (look at that one play he made against the Lakers the other day when he pulled up short and tossed in a soft shot over a visibly-frustrated Gasol, that was simple pure artistry).
Nor does Wall yet have the scoring range and versatility of someone like Deron Williams, but I suspect Wall is a better leader (the Utah experience will be an eternal blot on Williams’ copy book).
I do not think that Wall will ever be the kind of point guard who can completely dominate a game as Rose can, but I do think that paired with the right finishers he can be a more effective version of Russell Westbrook… who is a pretty wicked player himself… and a more multi-dimensional game changer than Rajon Rondo.
When you compare the current generation of point guards to past generations, you cannot help but be amazed by the wealth of talent at this position that now exists in the NBA. Players like Denver’s Felton and Lawson would have been considered almost elite a generation ago, now they are almost an afterthought. A young player with the stunning gifts of a Brandon Jennings is barely in the upper quartile at this position. Even in his prime, a player like Gilbert Arenas could not have achieved the level of success he did in 2004-06 against this company, and a player as intense as Allan Iverson would have found himself overmatched almost nightly.
When (not if) the team can find some finishers to play with Wall (and it would be nice if this would include a rededicated JVM and AB, and a properly deployed NY and JC), and when (not if) Wall gets more confidence in his jump shot, fans will come to see the Wizards because they will at that point be a team that plays offensive basketball the way it was meant to be played and possesses the length and mobililty that makes for solid defense as well.
I actually believe this could happen…
This reads
Thank Goodness we got our PG!
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
Stress fractures are inevitable when you kick as much ass as Trevor Booker does.
by returnofswagger on Apr 19, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Wall could be a combination of Rose and Paul.
He passes better than Rose, right now. He’s much more athletic than Paul is or ever was — closer to Rose on that account. I think, if he keeps improving (which, given his work ethic, I think will happen), he could be the best PG in the game in a few years. He can score whenever he wants to, but wants to keep his teammates more involved than Rose.
Throw a little Rondo in there
He is Paul, and Rondo, with a little Rose.
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
Stress fractures are inevitable when you kick as much ass as Trevor Booker does.
by returnofswagger on Apr 19, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
He passes better than Rose, right now.
No he doesn’t.
He’s much more athletic than Paul is or ever wasHe’s more athletic than Paul, not much more… Certainly not before Paul’s knee injury. The major difference is that Wall (and rose) plays athletically. Paul outsmarts you or outmaneuvers you.
I think, if he keeps improving (which, given his work ethic, I think will happen), he could be the best PG in the game in a few years.He has a shot…
He can score whenever he wants toOn the fastbreak, not so much in the halfcourt, but its hard to knock any rookie PG for that.
but wants to keep his teammates more involved than Rose.Rose’s team needs him to score; they ask him to. You can’t hold that against him.
Wall: 8.3 APG. Rose: 7.7 APG
And Wall was a rookie. And his assist numbers would’ve surely been higher if he had teammates like Noah, Deng and Boozer to pass to.
Wall is the winner in this one.
I don't hold anything against him.
He’s a great player. But Wall’s a better passer, and I don’t even think it’s that close.
Then we disagree.
Rose is undervalued as a passer because he’s such a phenomenal scorer. He almost never makes a bad pass, he has elite PG vision, and is an excellent passer in traffic off the P&R or dribble penetration. There are better passers than Rose in the league. Wall is not one of them. Wall certainly has the potential to be, but there’s a difference between could be and is.
And again, Rose’s team asks him to score. When wall started looking to score more in the second half of the season, his assists went down too.
Rose is the better player AND the better point guard. Wall may BECOME a better PG and passer, but if he becomes a better player altogether (or even as good a player), I’d be surprised. We’re talking about Derrick Rose, arguably the best player in the league.
by jones-y on Apr 19, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think Rose looks to score more because he's a score-first PG.
That’s just my opinion. Rose is a fine passer, as you say. He’s a gifted scorer, too, and is certainly one of the best players in the league.
That said, I do think his mentality is to score first, no matter who’s on the floor. I see Wall as a guy who can score at will (and will do it better when his jumper improves), but who looks first to set up teammates and run the offense. Again, this is subjective, but I think Wall has a higher ceiling in terms of what he can be. And that’s saying something, because Rose’s ceiling is up in the ether.
The question will be whether Ernie can surround him with the kind of talent Rose has around him now.
Wall is a better passer than Rose.
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
Primetime Gil would have lit Wall up for 50
Ok, maybe not 50…but maybe. Prime AI would have lit all these guys up too…the rules have shifted towards offense and have made the game easier than it was in the past for PGs. Not to say this group isnt amazingly talented….but I cant go so far as to agree that players like Gil and AI couldnt handle the likes of Raymond Felton etc
I wouldn't go quite that far either...
and apologize if I conveyed that impression. But the impact of this whole new class of point guards top to bottom is such that players like Gilbert and AI in their primes never had to contend with point guards of this caliber almost on a night-in, night-out basis. That can wear ya down!
no need for apologies!
agreed the PG talent is crazy right now and for the foreseeable future….which actually bothers me because we could be facing a situation where having a PG of wall’s eventual caliber doesnt offer the competitive advantage you’d hope from a franchise guy. But I suppose that is always the case unless you get a Shaq or Duncan or LeTurd
The PG class has improved, but we're only talking like 5 years ago.
Gil had plenty of high scoring amazing games against Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Paul, Kidd, etc.
by PhenomenalSwag on Apr 19, 2011 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
That is a really interesting thought though.
Dropping the likes of Iverson, Nash, Kidd, or even Gilbert into the NBA as a rookie in the last few seasons would have changed the perception of their whole careers(not so much, Gil). Maybe they were actually great still, but maybe they are lost in the crowd.
Because the great PG’s of this generation will be measured by championships, because all of them are talent.
Screw rational basketball analysis. I <3 Jordan Crawford.
Stress fractures are inevitable when you kick as much ass as Trevor Booker does.
by returnofswagger on Apr 20, 2011 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
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