Nick Young And The Qualifying Offer: A Lose-Lose, But Still Probably The Right Move
There's a reason only 10 restricted free agents (12 now if you include Spencer Hawes and Marco Belinelli) have signed the qualifying offer since 1999. There's a reason that a solution that ostensibly is a win-win for both sides has been enacted less than one time per season. It's because it's a last resort when neither the team or player gets what it desires.
All of that holds true with the Nick Young situation. Young reportedly wanted a long-term extension that was more than the four-year, $33 million deal Marcus Thornton received from the Sacramento Kings. The Wizards wanted to keep him here, but not at that price. In the end, both settled for something they didn't want, and neither is going to be incredibly thrilled by it.
No, Young won't go out and actively sabotage the team during games to get his shots. No, the Wizards' entire rebuilding strategy won't have to be abandoned. But you can bet that Young will have his contract situation on his mind when he's not in the flow of an actual game, and you can bet that the Wizards now need to envision an alternate future without one of their top players currently on the roster in the picture. That's why this is a lose-lose.
And yet, I still think the Wizards did the right thing.
We've talked about this before, so I won't rehash my point of view again, but in short, overpaying Young would have been a mistake. As good a scorer as Young has become, he's still incredibly one-dimensional on offense, and he's only demonstrated he can fit that scoring ability into a team setting for less than a full season. He has value, but if his reported asking price is true, he was asking to be paid like a core piece. Given his limitations, he's not quite good enough to justify that kind of financial commitment. Unless he makes incredible strides in those limitations, he won't be good enough to justify a $9 million/year financial commitment next summer either.If the Wizards offer anything less than Young's reported asking price next year, you have to wonder why Young would come back. Pretty much the only way that happens is if he once again finds a bad market and is forced to ponder the reality that he's worth far less than he thought. Even then, why would he sign with the Wizards over any other team? The Wizards already proved to him he wasn't worth as much to them as he thought. Would he really want to favor the Wizards' offer over any other team's?
So yes, a future without Nick Young is far more likely than a future with Nick Young. What does that future hold? It holds plenty of cap space and lots of flexibility to try to replace him. There's probably a high draft pick on the way in a deep draft. There's enough room to keep JaVale McGee if advertised and still be able to make a big move to find another piece, either via trade or free agency. It's really not the end of the world. The Wizards will manage far better than if they tied up too much of their long-term salary into a player like Young.
There are some striking parallels between this situation an the one the Chicago Bulls had with Ben Gordon. Gordon was the top perimeter scorer on a better team than this one, but he was pretty one-dimensional and the Bulls were unwilling to meet his contract demands of over $10 million a season. For the first year, Gordon settled for the qualifying offer and actually had a pretty nice season in 2008-09. He emerged as a piece many felt the Bulls should keep after a great playoff performance. Instead, the Bulls were again unwilling to meet his asking price and he left for Detroit. The Bulls elected not to directly replace him, instead keeping their powder dry for 2010 and building around their No. 1 draft pick. Two years later, they're the best team in the Eastern Conference, and few people miss Gordon. Things worked out for them just fine.
In the short-term, this won't be good for either side. In the long term, though, the Wizards will be OK, and you could argue they'll be even better. KurisuDevil said it best in the last thread: on the road to fiscal responsibility, there will be casualties along the way.
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Please don't keep Javale McGee
I’ve seen nothing from him except selling out to get blocked shots, and awkward looking toss up shots around the basket. I’d rather the Wizards sign his mom.
To Funny
Yeah I dont see the IQ or skill set to sign him to a long term deal…he’s to lazy!
by Bullets_4_Life on Dec 19, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Spot on, Mike.
Bottom line: Nick, although I like him, is not elite. Never will be elite. A good piece to have, but nothing more. Breaking the bank for him is simply foolish.
Casualness lead to being a Casualty
A top 5-7 pick in the draft and $30 mil in cap space is a better direction for the team then tying up $8+ mil for 3-4 years with NY. The rebuilding continues into it’s next phase!
two thumbs up
Yea the president is going to point this team in the right direction. nick is selfish and plays no defense! There’s no way he’s worth 9 a year. maybe 6
by Bullets_4_Life on Dec 19, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
In basketball
Reputations are built. Nick built the reputation of being a crappy, lazy defender. One good season where you don’t even play the entire season of anything doesn’t just change your reputation. I did see Nick play good defense last year. But when you have multiple seasons of being bad at something, and then one season doing good at it, people aren’t going to quite believe it. Even the professionals getting paid to evaluate NBA players.
I don’t blame anybody for saying he plays bad D. Let him prove that he really is that new and improved Nick. And that he can maintain focus on being that player.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
But that's the thing. He's always been good at man defense.
Now, he had effort issues under Eddie Jordan (as well as the rookie/sophomore learning curve), But there were times in Flip’s first year (09-10) when he stated that he had to leave Nick on the floor because he was defending that well… So in reality its been two years of good on-ball defense that we’ve witnessed.
But you hit on a key point: Reputation. In this case, its just plain not mirroring reality. How long does it take to overcome a reputation built over two years? You’d think another two years would be enough. But yet here we are…
Sad thing
That might just be his reputation for one reason, because he’s a Wizard. Our team has been terrible defensively for as long as I have been a fan. Maybe our influx of youth can slowly change that.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Completely agree
I definitely wanted Nick back and am happy he will be returning. I was scared we would throw out a huge number for him much like the Blatche deal. This works out nicely for us. If we do end up parting ways at the end of the year the two names I love in the draft are Jeremy Lamb, and Harrison Barnes to come in and replace him. I know Barnes is more of your classic 3 but I think if he were paired with Wall he could start at the 2 spot for us. I love Lamb. Imagine the crazy athleticism and defensive potential with a Wall, Lamb backcourt. I think Lamb could be an elite 2 guard in the league. Draft one of those 2 guys if NY does leave and spend all your Cap money on front court players.
We need to draft
A big man. And use Javel to trade for a SG. Javele is not long term . I could see the guy from Kentucky taking his starting job from day one.
Every player on the team would be shocked at how much easier the game would become if we dropped a real big man (like Andre Drummond) in at C. But they wouldn’t notice much of a difference if we exchanged him for Ant Davis(I assume that’s who you mean). That guy should be a SF.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Yes I meant Ant Davis
I thought he was a center, isn’t he 6’11? And I really like his defense and bball IQ.
Anthony Davis is 6’10" and listed as a PF… but his skills are more SF-like… He’s more a perimeter type player, very mobile with dribbling skills, and a nice outside shot (He was a combo guard in High School – then he grew 7 inches one Summer) – But he is NOT an inside player… nor is he a Center. nor can he guard Centers. And he’d have trouble guarding big, powerful PF’s as well…
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Davis is solid defensively in the post
with that great length and shot blocking ability. Unfortunately he’d be our fourth combo forward so he’d have to show he can bulk up and bang a bit during the NCAA season for him to challenge Barnes/Drummond as “best fit” for our team.
by mindstaterev on Dec 19, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
MKG on UK looks good to me too
Hard nosed competitor, seems like the kind of hard worker, plays SF at UK but at 6-6 he’ll probably be able to play SG in the NBA, seems to fit the swingman wing type player we will need if NY leaves.
by Ron Carlos Jeines on Dec 19, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
I love the idea of Drummond
But I still am not sold on him. He seems pretty raw. I have only seen him a couple times but I was planning on watching him once Big East play starts. I love his body and athleticism but Im just afraid he could be a project. I love the idea of Sullinger too but his body is already sort of breaking down and his lack of height, athleticism and narrow shoulders scare me. I feel like the Wiz could still be in a position next draft where we take the Best Player Available regardless of position except PG. If the front office thinks Lamb or Barnes has the potential to be an all star versus a guy like Sullinger who would just be decent to solid, I’m taking either Barnes or Lamb.
Wizards need to establish their core pieces before starting to fit complementary pieces around them
At a lower number Nick could have been signed long term, but if he wants “core player” money, he first needs to prove he is a core piece. He hasn’t, and neither has McGee.
by disgrunted on Dec 19, 2011 10:53 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Most teams around the league anticipated the Wizards would match any offer for Young
cough cough – that is, any offer for $5 million or less, which is all anyone is willing to give him.
i’m actually disappointed he’s back, but on the bright side, the fact they didn’t give him a big deal is a big positive for our front office.
nick might be doing the franchise a favor by being unwilling to lock into 4 years at around 20 mill. he’s doing me a favor at least.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 19, 2011 10:56 AM EST reply actions
I can not see
How a team with Nick Young, Javale McGee, and Andray Blatche locked in as starters long term was going to be anywhere near as successful as we want our team to be. That is not a good core at all. It’s actually pretty terrible, with or without John Wall.
So not giving Nick an extended contract paying him starter money, just because he is a home-grown player, is a great decision. It actually gives us a ton of flexibility now, and not just as far as cap room.
Not locking Nick up not only allows Ernie to look at SG’s in the draft this year (ohh Jeremy Lamb, come to me), it opens up the options Ernie has at drafting a SF too. Having a SG like Nick demands you have a versatile SF that can at least handle the ball and get to the rim. But now Ernie can do whatever he see’s fit, rather than being tied up with Abe Pollin’s core.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 11:21 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
precisely, that starting lineup is "turrible"
sometimes being a good fan is acknowledging your team actually sucks. thank you for your honesty, swagger.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 19, 2011 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
I would only consider keeping Javale
Blatche and NY seem to have the Gil bad touch all over them. Can we just do like Semi-Pro and trade Blatche for a really nice stand up washer and dryer set?
yeah, i'm still in wait and see mode on javale
but i’m not sold on him either.
i could possibly be okay with one of those three in our lineup, but not three of those three.
bad touch, lol.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 19, 2011 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
whatever you can get...he is much less likely
to be a piece than Young or McGee….although all have chances below 30 of being a piece…
I'm on the fence about Nick
I don’t want to be in rebuild mode in perpetuity like Minnesota, and I think we have some good pieces, but I don’t think the pieces fit well together. If they want to build a team for speed and defense, then we have to think how Nick fits into that approach. He can run and could be considered mobile, but he’s not really fast for his position. He can defend alright, but he’s not a lock-down defender for his position.
Nick’s greatest asset is, I think, his ability to spread the floor in half-court offense. The problem is, we suck at half-court offense and I’m not sure this is what the team is building towards. So, in my mind, that leaves Nick’s role on the team as offense off the bench with the ability to lock down against second team guards.
He may some day be worth $9 million a year, but I don’t think he’ll be worth that to the Wizards at any point in his career.
Pierre is the smooth operator. @JaValeMcGee34 is the monster you've grown to know on the court.
by Elvin_is_my_Elvis on Dec 19, 2011 11:23 AM EST reply actions
The problem is, we suck at half-court offense and I’m not sure this is what the team is building towards.
You can’t win in the playoffs without halfcourt offense.
We need to add major pieces
If we are going to have a legitimate half court offense. Hopefully Andray Blatche cam make strides because with that skillset, he can wreak havoc on most teams, passing AND scoring.
The main thing, we need a P&R big man. If Nick Young can’t pass, then Dray and especially Javale are even worse in the pick and roll. The NBA is a P&R league. Without that, we may as well start looking at the top prospects for the 2015 draft.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
Follow @Dylan___V
by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
When EG signed the tender I doubt this was his plan.
It’s very possible they are still negotiating but it made sense for both sides to get him into camp.
The only good players on this team
are John Wall, Trevor Booker, JaVale McGee, and hopefully a couple of these incoming rookies. Everyone else is a below average NBA player including Nick Young. While that may seem depressing, I think Wall, Booker, and McGee can all be long term starters on a contending team, and they are all above average NBA players. Who knows, if Jan Vesely becomes the beastly 3 he has the potential to be and Chris Singleton becomes the perfect 3 and D guard, we have a starting five already. If not, I’m confident that this organization can build through the draft and free agency. We have the assets for a bright future, we just need to shed our bad players (trade Blatche to the desperate/paper-thin Celtics) and be patient.
Young should improve...
….and average 20 points a game over 35 minutes, assuming he is not playing injured and team is getting him open shots so he can catch and shoot. Hopefully, he won’t pass to anybody unless they are standing wide open next to the rim.
If the Wiz want to be competitive, they need Young or a comparable shooter at the 2 and big upgrades at the 3 and 4. At the pace this team is developing, it might take another decade for them to be competitive.
The NY/AB/JVM trio has one season
is how I see it now. Maybe two for Javale, but unlikely because someone will offer him a big deal next summer but the question is whether it will be us.
All three of these guys have a one year audition. Whoever performs gets paid. If they all suck, we can let Nick walk, let JVM sign an offer sheet, and amnesty Blatche. After cutting Rashard, we’d have almost $40 million in space. Just let this season play out and reward accordingly.
Yep, time to play the games and see what we really have...
It may not be pretty but at least it will be real.
No reason to amnesty Blatche
Blatche would be a terrific first big off the bench for a good team, and his contract fits that profile. That he starts for the Wizards is because there is no one better to fill the starting PF spot. And, in my opinion, a great part of the reason that Blatche is criticized so much is that, by necessity, he is playing a bigger role than he should, and people criticize him for not being something that he isn’t.
Amnestying Blatche
is a terrible idea. For one, his contract is pretty good value for his production. Second, we need to use the amnesty clause on Rashard Lewis, who makes about $13M more than Blatche. Third, he is the second-best player on this team and unless there is another ESTABLISHED offensive option on this roster going into 2012-2013 (potentially Nick Young if he is resigned long-term) getting rid of Blatche for nothing would only set back the rebuilding process.
Just sayin
that we can possibly cut ties with all three and Lewis to create almost $40 million in cap space if it gets that bad. While using the amnesty on Lewis would give us more immediate cap savings, using it on Blatche would give us cap space for the following 3 seasons.
I hope Blatche and the others get it, but if we get to July of next year and none have shown the desired progress, we may decide to cut ties with all depending on what we get in the draft and what presents itself in FA.
No sense in throwing good money after bad.
One year at $3.7M is spot on. Even if he blows up this season and becomes the next Clyde Drexler (and most of us are pretty sure he won’t), the Wizards can give him a longer contract with bigger yearly increases than anyone else. Money talks.
Right move by the Wizards.
by Bassanova on Dec 19, 2011 1:01 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Now that we have 17 players..
on the current roster, who do you think we will waive? Wilks seems like an obvious option, but who will the other be? Owens or N’Diaye?
yea waiving Owens gives us a balanced roster break down
PG: Wall, Mack, Collins
SG: Young, Craw, Mason
SF: Lewis, Ves, Sing
PF: Blatche, Book, Seraphin
C: McGee, Turiaf, H
wouldn’t surprise me if Big Ern moved some of the young talent crowding the bench at SF and PF (four oof 6 are rookies or sophomores) for a pick or another player to fill any of the many possible holes that open up in our roster as the year progresses.
by Ron Carlos Jeines on Dec 19, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
He's as good as gone.
Let’s put it like this. Not only is the market going to be a factor next year, but you also have to think there will be a full off season and teams now have the ability to use their amnesty clause. They may be a team that is willing to cut a big contract just to get Nick Young, that otherwise wouldn’t have had the cap space. The market will open up much more next year than this year especially if he plays well. The question then becomes, would he risk his Bird Rights, just to play for a contender or will he veto any trade and stay to build up his asking price for the summer? It’s going to be an interesting situation to follow.
by ThePGPhenomenon on Dec 19, 2011 1:36 PM EST reply actions
My opinion...
I think all the Nick Young detractors will be lamenting his loss at the end of the season….
I believe that Nick will continue his upward trend in shooting efficiency ending the year around 57% – and of course, he’ll be over 40% on 3-point shots. With Flip taking the reins off, he’ll add an assist or two…(remember, Nick’s been operating on a binary yes/no system… open=shoot, defended=pass back to PG)….. This year he will finally break the perception that he’s a poor defender, even though he’s been a decent defender for two years; He’ll get better, and referees will finally see it too…….. so that by the end of the year, he’ll be considered one of the best young shooting guards in the League…
Already, people like John Hollinger have taken notice. Last year, Hollinger’s player profile on Young was like reading a dissertation on how NOT to be a basketball player. He said that all Nick could do was score; and was inefficient at that – but in every other aspect of the game he sucked. And Hollinger went into full on demeaning mode talking about Young’s complete lack of effort on defense, his penchant for shot jacking and complete lack of court vision.
This year? He has begrudgingly acknowledged that Young was one of the League’s most improved players… Called him “deadly in catch-and-shoot situations”; mentioned his miniscule turn over rate; and called his TS% “solid”… He still brought forth Young’s shortcomings by calling out his “assist problem” and calling him “a bizarrely bad rebounder” (fair assessments) – BUT also acknowledged Young’s apparent turn around on the defensive end calling him “mediocre” (apparently not wanting to call him average – after calling him one of the worst defenders in the League a year ago)…
If John Hollinger can see it, I’m just shocked that there are Wizards fans (who actually watch most of the Wizards games) that still cling to the outdated and incorrect falacies that Young is a terrible defender and a selfish player (shot jacker)….
I’ve been saying for more than a year that Nick Young still has a tremendous amount of untapped upside. I’ve said that his first two years under Eddie Jordan taught Nick absolutely NOTHING… But in only a year and a half under Flip Saunders (in my opinion a HUGE upgrade as far as being a teacher compared to Eddie Jordan) – Nick has made these immense changes and improvements to his game… I believe he will continue to get better… and by the end of this year, everyone here will finally acknowledge that Nick’s first two seasons were wasted, and should be thrown out when talking about his “development”…
Unfortunately, some other team will benefit from the Wizards “development” of Nick Young – and he’ll earn his first All-Star appearance in a different uniform. Meanwhile, the Wizards will have ANOTHER hole to fill in their line up….. and we will all rue the day they extended Blatche and McGee to long term contracts…..
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I think you are missing the point, Rook
I agree with you about Nick’s development. But for the Wizards to lock him up long term at a hefty price, the Wizards will be adding Nick as one of their core pieces. (The second member of the Big 3 (I hate that term) aside from Wall.) But is it prudent for a team to choose as the second member of its core a guy who MIGHT become an all-star? Nick is not destined for all-star status like some guys. He has the potential to be an all-star. I would bet against it, but there’s a chance, maybe even a decent chance.
But when you have pretty much a fresh slate cap-wise, do you tie up a big portion of your cap on a decent chance? I think that’s too risky.
by disgrunted on Dec 19, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yet
the consensus on BF seems to be that extending Blatche for roughly $8 Million a year – and extending McGee for something north of $9 Million – - – even with all their deficiencies – AND a longer real period of evaluation… that those two ‘deserve’ to be extended… or at least those two extensions are not “cap killers”…. So spending $17 Million on those two is OK… Guys that have already SHOWN that they have untapped potential, but who, in my opinion, will never do what is necessary to change their games to accommodate what the team needs….
Yet, retaining a hard working, coach-able player with upside = that has ALREADY shown that he can be a valuable piece of the puzzle = and has already shown his willingness to change his game to make the team better – with his efficient scoring and man defense…. is not in their long range plans…
I’m not sure Nick Young was worth signing to a $8 or $9 Million contract…. I would have preferred the Wizards sign him at 4-years, $25-28 Million – BUT – the Wizards have already set the price for an under-perfoming, soft, lazy Power Forward that won’t rebound or play defense at $8 Million per year…. so WTF?
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Fair points.
But again, the market is different for guards vs. bigs. Smaller pool of talent for bigs, hence more scarcity of the asset, hence they cost more.
Hence
the Wizards have to “settle” for under performing, uncoach-able big men who play for their stats – and to hell with the actual Offensive scheme or team results…
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
and
Sit around in the off-season, hosting parties, eating cheeto’s , making “pierre” movies , and “running on the beach”…..
While professionals like Dwight Howard are working in the weight room to make their physique look like they’re Photoshopped…
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Can't teach height Rook.
Its not really an apples to apples comparison between Nick’s contract situation and theirs.
But you could make it one by scaling the contract sizes.
Say, one big man dollar equals 80 guard cents?
And yet the same criticism prior to last year was leveled at Young
for goofing off all the time with Arenas et al. Yet some people gave him the benefit of the doubt. I’m not sure why refuse to give the same benefit to Blatche or McGee.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
by Sean Fagan on Dec 19, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Disagree on un-coachable...
McGee has improved, and more than marginally, since his rookie year. Blatche, I’m afraid, will never get it. Too early to pass judgement on the other bigs.
Jordan is flat the better player, dude. He plays to his strengths
Offensively, he roams the baseline, get’s out of the way and makes cuts when it’s appropriate. Defensively he’s a descent post defender, descent pick and roll defender and good help defender. Most importantly, he doesn’t do shananigans!
Javale might have more potential but nothing he does indicates he is going to fully realize his potential.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Dec 20, 2011 4:43 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
well said
fyi, it’s spelled ‘decent’
(your english is impressive but thought i’d help you out there)
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 20, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
Heh
My spoken English is ok, my written English is a little shaky to say the least…
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Dec 20, 2011 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
Afflalo got less than Nick Young was asking for.
No point in over-spending for Nick right now when we don’t even know how good he is. He played well during parts of the season last year, and that was about it. Nothing to warrant anything close to what he was looking for. It would have been nice to lock him up for 4-5 years at a reasonable price but it seems that the Wiz are not completely sold on him as our starting SG of the future.
"Blake Griffin is the American Jan Vesely" - Jan Vesely
by PhenomenalSwag on Dec 19, 2011 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
5 years for 43 mil???
I’m going to say Nick would take that… and I’m not saying we should of offered that much but to just give out the QO doesn’t do anything for us. If he keeps showing improvement like he did last year then he will be signing with someone else averaging 20 per. People on here act like starting SG’s grow on trees… who in the NBA is going to sign with us that is better or as good as Nick Young??
Bigs get paid a premium.
We saw that with Gasol (Griz) and Jordan (Clips) during free agency. That’s a fact of NBA economics.
BTW, Blatche did average 8 rebs per game last season, which isn’t bad for a power forward coming off a broken foot.
Wait
You say that Blatche is not a bad rebounder?
For Power Forwards (only PF’s) in the League, he ranks 41st in rebounds per 48 minutes….
41st – that’s not just bad… That’s worse than Jon Brockman and Ike Diogu… (who? – EXACTLY !! )……
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
When I included all players
I stopped looking after 4 pages… couldn’t find him……
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Actually I said not bad for a power forward coming off a broken foot.
Now does your multi-page list include that category too? ;-)
His
Blatche’s rebound rate was 13.8 in 2010-11…. BETTER than the two previous seasons (13.0 in 2009-10, 13.0 in 2008-09) – so he was a better rebounder coming off a broken foot ?!!???!…..
Are you saying that we need to break his OTHER foot to make him a better rebounder?
Blatche has always been a poor rebounder…. broken foot… healthy foot… it don’t matter… he sucks at rebounding…
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Blatche was obviously a better rebounder coming off a broken foot
than he was the previous years. That is a fact. It’s intellectually dishonest to somehow suggest that I implied that his numbers got better BECAUSE OF the broken foot. Could the better rebound rate last year mean he (:gasp:) got better and/or worked harder on the boards (despite his poor conditioning and nagging injuries) than he had in the past?
Didn't Kwame Brown get 7 million?
Big Men just get $$ more. While it’s not as true at it used to be, NBA championships are won in the front court.
The problem with AB and McGee is that every so often they’ll play a game or two where you’ll think “man, they could really be amazing.”
Nick Young has had some great light outs game too, and has been far more consistent this year last, it’s just teams have to take the risk on big men.
by GJennings on Dec 19, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
$7mill for Kame is ridiculous
It’s only a one yr contract though, so it is not so bad.
Javale at $7 a year for 5 yrs sounds about right to me at this point
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Dec 20, 2011 4:46 AM EST up reply actions
Meh
At that price he would be trade able but I’d prefer to give him a 3yr deal. If he doesn’t show any significant improvement before the ASG, I’m all for trading him.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Dec 20, 2011 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
I'll tell you what doesn't grow on trees.
Seven foot human beings. Much less athletic ones.
Let's be accurate, at least
Blatche will make:
‘11-’12: $6.4 million
‘12-’13: $7.1 million
‘13-’14: $7.8 million
‘14-’15: $8.5 million
You are on point ROOK
I don’t know how you keep your patience with these commentors.
The logic behind supporting JM or Blatche but not Young is flawed. You are so on point about NY showing the ability to LEARN and IMPROVE. Yeah NY gets too happy on court sometimes, yeah hes goofy, he puts his head down and he may not be the biggest go getter. But damn, the dude sure can shoot for a SHOOTING GUARD lol. And hes not a detriment, he is showing he can reach his potential when given the opportunity. NY was negatively influenced by Gilbert, imho and NY is sort of a follower. Now its time for NY to follow J Walls passion and become a winner. McGee on the other hand thinks he knows more than the coaches or hes just slow. Hes not very teachable and in tuen is an actuall DETRIMENT to the TEAM.
When has NY ever been a detriment to this team. In fact he is steadily improving and he displays a good attitude.
The only difference with NY
is that at least you could make the case that Crawford might be an option at SG, while we have nobody to take over at PF/C. All our combo forwards, except maybe Singleton, would get dominated on defense and the glass, and none have any semblance of a post game.
My biggest concern with Nick is that his attitude reminds me of Dwight Howard—goofy, probably looking to play in a big market city with warm weather, but only half the talent and potentially the quintessential “contract year” performer.
Glad we’ll have him in the lineup this year, and I think he can continue to improve, but I can’t fault the team for not giving him more than Blatche (which I hope we all realize now was a mistake) when no other team was willing to get within $3MM of what he was looking for.
by mindstaterev on Dec 19, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
All that said
WHAT WAS ERNIE SUPPOSED TO DO?
You Nick Young supporters can say what you will, and I agree with most of it(well until it got outrageous yesterday), but the bottom line is, Ernie did the best thing he could do.
If he got his 5 years $45/per, every one of us would be complaining. I guess Mike hit it right on the head when he said it was a lose-lose.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 20, 2011 11:40 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
I think the only thing there's "consensus" on is that nobody likes Blatche AND McGee AND Youn
At this point we probably have to keep one of those guys. At least until we start to get nearer to contending.
Blatche has a semi-reasonable contract and can do a lot but still kind of sucks. McGee is a phenomenal athlete and one of the least cognizant players in the NBA. He will also command a premium on his next contract despite the fact that he may never be a starting quality NBA center. Young is a great shooter with some big holes in his game. He wants to play in the west and is demanding tons of money.
There are a few people who like all three. Quite a few people who dislike all three. Most seem to be in between. Dray gets the most hate. Personally, I could take Young as a piece, but would let him walk if he demands too much. I’d probably prefer McGee to Blatche at this point, but as long as we get rid of one I think we can work with the other.
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by Elvin_is_my_Elvis on Dec 19, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
Don't do that
Hyperbole is the theme of the day.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
I do think there's a chance we miss him one day
But what was Ernie supposed to do right now, if Nick really was set on $9 mil/per? I believe Rook has already said he didn’t advocate signing him at that cost. Although of Nick were an all-star in two years, that contract would be fair.
Just maybe Nick does earn something near that, this year(he could potentially make more strides then Gordon did in Chicago, and that’s a good situation to compare this to) and Ernie sees it fitting to pay Nick a lot closer to what he wants.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 2:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Rook, I don't think Nick will ever be an all-star or be considered an elite shooting guard.
If Nick had the upside you suggest, surely some intrepid, insightful GM would have offered him a lucrative contract (complete with a “poison pill” if need be), restricted status or no. Could all of the other GMs be wrong about Nick Young?
My personal belief is that Nick Young will go the highest bidder next summer and not leave a penny on the table. If he earns it, the lucrative long-term contract he seeks will come from the Wizards.
Which Shooting Guard
currently in the League – will be better than Nick Young…? in 3-5 years?
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Right off the top of my head, just looking solely at a few of the young guys:
James Harden, Steph Curry, Rodney Stuckey, Eric Gordon, Evan Turner.
There are others.
Now which of these guys would you rather have playing off of John Wall than NY?
They all need the ball in their hands much more than Nick.
I would take any of those SGs over Nick.
You say they “need” the ball much more. I disagree. I think they touch the ball much more because they can create shots for other people. Nick? Not so much.
Problem is
none of them play next to an elite, pass first PG. Which is what we may have… Which is what makes ’ they all need the ball in their hands’ a problem.
But you concede that they touch the ball a lot more,
so what’s the difference?
The difference is that they don't "need" the ball, imho.
They get more touches because they’re more well rounded and can do more with the ball than Nick.
So how well, then, would they fare
in a situation where they don’t get the ball as much because they’re playing with a great PG?
Do you think their performance would suffer? Or that they would have to adjust their styles of play?
Evan Turner?
What has Evan Turner showed us so far?
I like
Harden and Gordon….. both could be fighting with Young over the next 3-5 years for the All-Star berths..
I’ve never liked Curry…. Offense only… no defense.. besides, he’s a PG !
Evan Turner still has upside… but from what I saw last year, he’s got a long way to go….
Rodney Stuckey – depends on whether you think he’s a SG or PG… As a PG, he’s not bad… Good scorer… adequate defensively… OK distributor… But then unfair to compare against a SG…. Hard to tell if he peaked in 2009-10, or how much Kuester hurt his development last year…. I reserve judgement….
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I'd rather not pay Nick
and try to make a run at Gordon or Harden in the next couple of years. I was a big fan of bringing back Nick until I heard that $9 million price tag. Whats upsetting to me is that Nick has a ridiculous number in his head and even though no one else was willing to give it, he’ll likely hold hostility against the Wiz for not giving it to him.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see him sign a deal with another team next year at $6 million per year because he’s pissed at the Wiz. This is very similar to the Skins and the Carlos Rogers siutation.
When the players are better
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
To be fair
It is not in Nick’s personality to act the way some people are suggesting. It’s actually that “killer instinct” that he lacks that maybe people are having a hard time putting a finger on. In this case, it helps us. He is happy to play second fiddle to Wall and he will resign for the most he can get like any other player. If he gets an offer sheet at $9 million, he’ll walk unless the Wizards match it. This stuff about him being mad he got a qualifying offer and definitely leaving via free agency is a little overstated. He’ll leave if someone pays him more, or is the Lakers or the Clippers.
by Unselds on Dec 19, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
you will be singing a different tune in June....
When he shows he’s truly a very good starting SG in the League – with some additional upside…. and when Nick walks because he turns down a very lucrative contract from the Wizards …and goes to the Clippers or he forces a sign-and-trade to the Lakers or Miami…. you and I will have another conversation.
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I admire your steadfast belief in Nick, Rook. I really do.
We just disagree.
Further, I can’t imagine any scenario in which the thought of losing Nick to another team for nothing will compel the Wiz to do a sign-and-trade so that he still gets paid “Bird Rights” money and the Wiz get, for example, Joel Anthony and Shane Battier.
If his play warrants a big payday, he’ll sign with the Wiz or accept, at best, a MLE from Miami or the Lakers. Obviously, teams below the cap could offer him more than the MLE, but that remains to be seen.
As you said, we’ll see.
I'm not sure it'll get to that
Assuming the following:
1. Nick Young plays better than last year.
2. The Wizards are out of the playoff hunt.
3. Some team in CA or NY/NJ is in the playoff hunt.
If it’s getting close to the deadline, and I’m Nick Young, I want to be moved to one of those teams. With a 3.7 million dollar contract, I’m easy for the Wizards to move for a pick. If Nick Young plays in the LA or NYC media markets, his value will go up a million on press hype alone.
So Nick will be very tradeable if he plays like Rook says. He’ll want to get move so he can show off for the playoffs.
Alternatively, if NY plays like crap. It won’t matter. It’s a one year deal. While I think the Wizards should have tried to leverage a 2nd year as a team option, I think they have a tradable asset at this point.
if we are okay with nick young for 9 mil a year (which I am not)
then lets sign afflalo for 10 mil a year….thats what simmons thinks his worth will be,
exactly
or wait for Gordon or Harden the next year. I’m not gonna pay $10 mil for Nick when you can get one of the others for $10-11 million.
Nice idea in theory
In practice, there’s an awful high probability that you’ll end up left with nothing.
Also, we have the ability to front load Nick’s contract. Can’t do that with anyone else.
Rook, you also still owe me a drink for saying
that the 2008-9 Wizards were playoff bound and maybe conference final contenders.
Rook, you’ve made several accurate statements as to Young’s improvement. However, I’m not sure what you are expecting when the market clearly isn’t there for the player? We should bid against ourselves? That is the right option? Young clearly considers himself to be a more valuable player than the other SGs signed this offseason, including Thornton and Stuckey. However, what has Young done to prove himself at the level of those two players?
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
No where did I say he should have been signed for anything more than about 4-years, 28 Million...
However – as quickly as Blatche was extended…. as much as McGee is being shown love….
Just as slowly did the Wizards act on Young…. Where was their urgency to tie up their guy? This team has historically overpaid to keep their players… Yet when it was Young’s turn, ……….crickets…………..
I am not saying Nick is worth more than Afflalo – or anything like that… I am simply expressing my dismay that the Wizards front office apparently couldn’t get the job done… Is this what we have to look forward to? Watching as the team refuses to resign their young, hard working stars – but at the same time extending lazy, under-performing guys?
Good organizations get it done…. Bad ones watch and let the “market set the price” – and watch… and watch…… and watch…… and never take a chance…. Whether it’s resigning a guy because you believe in his upside – Rewarding your own players for their hard work and dedication to their craft…… or taking a chance in the Free Agency market on a big name… the Wizards don’t take chances – they watch…..
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Rook c'mon
You have been around here long enough to know that the opinion on McGee is…divided at best. Secondly, I think its fair for the Wizards to be gun shy about locking up a guy long term who has only one discernible skill. I like Young too, but I don’t see how you can justify making the second piece of our championship puzzle a catch and shoot guy.
We are a bad team. We might be bad for the next few years. Bad teams don’t throw money after players with obvious flaws.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
by Sean Fagan on Dec 19, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
one discernible skill.
And – once again…the falsehood…
Who on the Wizards is a better man-on-man defender?
Is keeping turn overs to an amazing minimum a skill?
If there are points awarded for basketball “skills”…. and Nick Young can shoot… and he can defend… but doesn’t pass… and doesn’t rebound….
Then why does Jordan Crawford get more points than Nick Young when he can’t shoot, nor can he defend, but he can pass… and uh………uh……..em………what?!!? score if you give him 17 shots a game as long as you don’t care how many shots he misses…. ?
How is Jordan Crawford a “multiple” skill player – and Nick Young a one skill player? From my thinking, Jordan Crawford is the limited “one trick pony” player….
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Lets see
Trevor Booker is a better man on man defender
Kirk Hinrich was a better man on man
Singleton is a better man on man
And why has this suddenly become about Crawford vs. Young with you? Crawford is cheaper, thats probably the preference. Also younger. Also only a sophmore.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
by Sean Fagan on Dec 19, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Booker is not a better man up defender.
Singleton has proven nothing to this point (not taking anything away from him and what he could potentially be, but he just played his first pro game a few days ago…).
I’ll give you Hinrich, but he’s always been one of the better perimeter defenders in the league.
but Hinrich is also NOT ON THE TEAM
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Rook, I admire you're passion in fighting the false stereotype about NY
I fully agree, as you know but man, do I get tired of people just repeating each other’s (wrong) stereotype perception of NY.
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by Dutch Hoopfan on Dec 19, 2011 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
Nick Young's best games are 28pts 1rb 1ast.
When Crawford got his first start last year, he put up a triple double. That’s why people see Crawford as more multi-dimensional than Nick. Granted Nick is a better shooter which is more of what John Wall needs next to him, so yes, I would like to have Nick in there with John.
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by PhenomenalSwag on Dec 19, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
No more like 43pts, 4rb and 3ast.
Not that we’re counting…
My bad, I'll never over-exaggerate ever again.
"Blake Griffin is the American Jan Vesely" - Jan Vesely
by PhenomenalSwag on Dec 19, 2011 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
If you belive he makes an all-star game in the next 3-5 years.
Then you should believe he’s worth more than $6 mil/per.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
The AB example isn't per
All of those extensions were part of the Pollin regime. None of them were Ted’s guys. Also, McGee hasn’t gotten an extension yet.
Honestly
A presentation from Rook might just convince an NBA GM Nick Young is worth 4 years/$40 mil.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think Rook
has ever said he’s worth 10 million. Just that he wanted the Wizards to be more aggressive in their negotiations.
Yep
My concern it NOT with what Nick Young is asking for – or what he thinks he’s worth… or what other players got….
My reaction is that because of how they have played this… the Wizards will lose a good player to Free Agency… and make NO MISTAKE – Young will walk this Summer.
Our organization cannot make the same kind of cool and groundbreaking deals that GOOD organizations seem to make all the time. San Antonio signing Tim Duncan for LESS than the maximum… Drafting DeJuan Blair. The Boston Celtics trading for KG and Allen and immediately becoming relevant. Miami and the big 3.
Instead our organization trades away high draft picks for mediocre talent. Cannot seem to be able to generate any kind of loyalty from it’s players… Is viewed by the rest of the League in the same way that Sacto and Minnesota are -- the soft underbelly of the NBA. A NON destination for quality Free Agents.
My frustration is that we draft a kid – screw up his development BADLY for a few years – then, just when he seems to have turned the corner – we just walk away from that investment.
It’s a maddening trend that has to be fixed BEFORE the Wizards will be able to do anything in this League… Even John Wall won’t help if this Organization cannot change from one that makes poor decisions and waits on things to happen – to one that MAKES THINGS HAPPEN.
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
well if Nick Youngs agent demand 9M
and don’t drop that demand no matter what its hard to get reasonable deal on.
Its either pay that ~9M/year or he takes that 3.7M for year…
I would say a lot of that comes down to the GM
A GM should have some idea if a player on a team will put his needs first or the needs of the team. If you want a great example of such a player, Carlos Boozer. He essentially lied to the former Cavalier’s owner, who tried to reward him with a bigger contract. He hurt the Jazz when he wouldn’t tell that what he was doing. He sign with Chicago for the most money he could get.
In contrast, Gilbert Arenas and Tim Duncan both took less money to help their organization. They want to be part of “the team.”
The vibe I have gotten from Nick has always been more Boozer than Duncan. From the Drew League to his response to Arenas’s fake injury, he looked like a guy who put team second. I’m not surprised he wanted the most money and wasn’t looking to give the Wizards a home team discount.
The Wizards, under the EG-Pollin regime, decided to draft high ceiling players in the hopes of hitting it big. As a 2nd round pick, AB is pretty fantastic. As a post-lottery pick, McGee and Young are solid picks. They all fell because of concerns about their maturity, either in terms of their understanding of the game or off-the-court incidents. So far, none of those players have appeared to give the home team any kind of discount in their contract discussions.
In contrast, Ted-EG regime seems to focus on drafting defensive players, with a focus on athleticism over skill. Booker was one of the top defenders. Singleton was one of the most NBA ready defensive players. Vessely is raw, but I think they view him as a new AK. These players have more a reputation for being team players. I’ll be interesting to see if it carries in a contract year.
The point is that a team should realize that you have to think about resigning the guy before you draft him. If you draft a player who has a reputation for being “me first,” you should expect to be a disadvantage when contract renewal comes along.
I hear what you are saying
and you make some great points. However, I still think Blatche and McGee are more valuable to this team long-term than Nuick Young (whether as players or trade assets). It is much easier to find decent SGs than big men.
Here is another way to think about it
Saunders had to break Young’s game to to bedrock zero before building it back up again within the confines of the system. After doing that, how much more room is there left for improvement ?
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
TONS
The talent was always there…. Young lacked direction…discipline… organization… and most of all coaching. He’s gotten by on his athleticism, and his ability to shoot the basketball… from High School, through his two years at USC, and his first two years as a Wizard….
Now – FINALLY - he has a coach that is teaching him how to be a good basketball player… NOT teaching him to shoot…. NOT benching him when he misses shots…. but PLAYING him when he defends… He has a coach that has put limits on what he should be doing… and gradually increasing those limits… just like you SHOULD coach.
Teach the basics first:
This is how you come off screens… if you are open, shoot.. if not, don’t try to be too fancy- pass it back to the PG and we’ll re-set.
In this set- fade to the corner behind the 3-point line… if you get the ball and you’re open, shoot…
I don’t care if you miss shots, but you better Play hard on defense – or I’ll pull you…
Personally – I believe this is (like) Nick Young’s 3rd season in the League… the season that most players take a big step up in their production…. Unfortunately, because Eddie Jordan wasted Nick’s first two years – it’s coming in Nick’s 5th season…..
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
But you have to put ALL that work into a guy
who is ALREADY 26 years old! Who had two years of college coaching? How much room is there actually for growth!? Probably not as much as you think. Nick Young might be all that Nick Young can be at this point. And that is what most likely makes him an unacceptable risk…
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
by Sean Fagan on Dec 19, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Room for growth
I know that there’s a ton of room for improvement with the half-assed picks that are being set for him. I hope there’s a ton of room for improvement with the PG getting him the ball.
As for his age, players who play his current style have proven to have exceptional longevity, remaining effective into their late 30’s.
You are thinking.... Ray Allen?
Out of interest. Anyone knows which players made the all-star team after 26 years old?
Obviously, Nick lacks the rest of Ray Allen’s game, but, yes, Nick can run around screens and shoot like Ray. Not many have that ability. The ones that do can continue to be effective into their late 30’s.
If Nick stays with us, I think Wall will make him one of the best SGs in the conference. But with Wall, Rose, Rondo, and Deron around, it’s going to be hard for any SG to make the All Star game from the East.
Nick Young might be all that Nick Young can be at this point.
And you say that based on what? That he’s stopped improving?
If you were talking about Stuckey – I could possibly agree (although, again, how much is Kuester’s fault for Stuckey hitting a plateau?)… Yet Stuckey is 25 and people still think he has upside… If you were talking about Blatche- I’d agree… Yet this is Blatche’s 7th year in the League, and everyone keeps talking about his “upside”….
If you just want to be arbitrary – and pick a date when a player stops improving – then why not 23 years old, or 32 years old? or 50?
Maybe it’s after 6 years of coaching… ???!!? Then Nick still has 4 years left to improve…
When a player stops showing incremental improvement – then you might be able to say he’s all that he can be… Nick has not reached that point yet… At least, he has NOT plateaued yet…
So again, I say as long as he continues to improve – we should expect improvement….
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Andray Blatche also came straight to the NBA out of HS
which whatever, it is what it is. I just don’t see why mgmt should be hot to trot to retain a talent that that only last year made the adjustments necessary to get playing time. Nor do I see what Blatche’s contract has to do with the situation. Even if it is a mistake, do we therefore compound that mistake by overpaying Young. What has a core of Young and Blatche delivered over the past few years?
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
I don't think that's an accurate or fair way to frame the situation.
a talent that that only last year made the adjustments necessary to get playing time.
Its more like Nick just plain wasn’t being developed before Flip came. When Flip got here, he had to break him down and start from scratch. The ‘adjustments’ you speak of started the year prior and began to bear fruit last year.
Nick Young
Probably has a little more growing, just based on his age and how similar players have progressed. I’m not sure, however, his progress will be sufficient to justify a 10 million dollar contract.
Put it another way...
What if Nick Young were 24 years old, and just starting his 3rd season..?
As a 17 ppg guy, with a 53% TSP, and starting to “get it” on defense – with a couple holes in his game – EVERYONE here would be vibrating with excitement to see how Nick “improves” in his 3rd “break out” season….
Hell – Jordan Crawford has folks excited because he scored 17 ppg for the Wiz on horrible shooting… ball hogged… shot jacked… played horrible defense.. and going into his 2nd season, everyone’s jacked up to see him “improve”… But he sat on Atlanta’s bench all year - He was not reined in when he got here.. he wasn’t yanked out of the game for bad shots.. he wasn’t pulled when he played terrible defense…
Perhaps if you put Jordan Crawford into the exact same situation that Nick Young endured his first two years – and there wouldn’t be so much excitement about him.
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Woah
Perhaps if you put Crawford in Young’s situation, with three whole more years of NBA experience and two whole years of Flip Saunders’ coaching, maybe he would have a jumpshot, would be a competent defender even at SG, with GREAT court vision and passing ability, and that coaching had tamed his shot selection and refined his game, and he’d have the ability to grab 4 rebounds a game.
Maybe it was inevitable (definitely should have been predictable) that this thread turned into Crawford v. Young. But if this:
What if Nick Young were 24 years old, and just starting his 3rd season..?
Who is to say Nick Young got absolutely nothing beneficial from his two years under Eddie Jordan? That’s preposterous. And are we really at the point where we are blaming coaches for deficiencies? Maybe I think it’s Flip’s fault for leaving Crawford on the floor bad shot after bad shot, teaching him absolutely nothing about shot selection. And why aren’t you defending Andray Blatche with the same argument?
What if Blatche were 22 just starting his third season? Coming in healthy averaging 17 and 8? Or McGee? Starting his third season and already receiving DPOY votes? It’s all outrageous and can’t be applied to any player, including Nick.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
1. Eddie Jordan was a horrible coach for anyone not named 'veteran'
2. The only thing Young learned from him was “you better hit your first shot.”
OK Thats my point
How can you exclude Nick Young’s progress under Jordan but then just ignore the fact that Dray and McGee had the same exact coach, and criticize them for taking their sweet time?
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
I must say...
that’s a fair point. Though, to be honest, Dray still deserves his fair share of the blame. He got chances. Heck, the team needed him to produce… Toward the end (08-until EJ got fired), however, he did get jerked around a lot, even as he started to show progress.
I think the Eddie Jordan argument best fits Young, however. McGee only got a few weeks of Erk-n-Jerk.
But anyway, back to “the interest of fairness”. Dray lost his rookie season. So in all reality, this is his sixth.
But you're not willing to concede that the bigs have similar room for improvement.
In your eyes, if I read you correctly, Young still has all this potential, but the bigs are knuckleheads who will never be anything more than journeymen. Why does only Nick get the benefit of the doubt?
Good point.
Bigs take longer and peak later.
True, but process matters, too.
With Nick, we could see him figuring things out, slowly but steadily. Continuous, incremental progress.
With JaVale and Dray, they’re still making the same, infuriating mistakes, over and over and over.
And true that...
Although, even I have to admit that Nick seems to figure things out a bit slowly… Probably what some would call a low Basketball IQ….. (and I cannot dispute that)….. but he DOES figure things out… Which is why I don’t expect a huge leap in his assists, or rebounding this year…. but perhaps only a small, incremental, steady improvement….
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Question of the day then
Would those small increments each year eventually have been worth the $35-$40 mil he is asking for?
Because that’s where this is… Ernie didn’t have a choice to sign him at 4 years $25 mil like you feel is ideal. And most people agree Nick as not going to be as good as the contract he was demanding.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
My point is
good organizations sign guys…. The Wizards let them go because they’re “too expensive”…….
We may be looking at the exact same situation in 3 years with Jordan Crawford…. Just as he’s ready to really produce… the Wizards will be in a position to either PAY HIM, or watch to see the “Market set the price”…
We’re going to have the same decision on McGee this summer….
And the Wizards have already shown they will not take chances… they will wait and see… wait for the market to set the price – and then move on and let the player walk when the asking price is too high……….
That is the scenario for a perpetually rebuilding team….
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
My point is signing him was not an option.
Because he wanted an outrageous contract.
And as far as I know, the Wiz do NOT just let guys go because we have cheap management. For all we know, Ernie made that generous 4 year $28 mil deal the day FA opened up and Nick declined.
And look at Gilbert Arenas. Or under new ownership, look at Andray Blatche. How can you categorize them like that, because of this one situation, where Nick Young didn’t give management a choice anyway?
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
Sigh
I really hate how people have forgotten about Gilbert’s contract. Gilbert was offered max-money by the Wizards and Warriors. He GAVE up money to stay in Washington.
When a team is winning, player are willing to take less. That’s the problem with the NBA, player behavior works against competitive balance.
I totally remember that
It just has nothing to do with the point. More or less proves my point.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 20, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
I don't understand your logic.
“good organizations sign guys” — you mean like Detroit? What have they gotten by signing “guys” like Gordon, Villanueva, Jerebko, etc?
No, it’s certainly not about “signing guys”. It’s about signing the right guys to the right contracts. If Nick was worth $9 million/year, that’s what Ernie probably would have offered. It’s clear he isn’t — at least not at this point in his career.
Why tie up big money in players that aren’t worth it? Signing guys because that’s what “good organizations” do is nonsensical; an argument without content.
Um, no. McGee has definitely made slow, steady improvement.
Every year he’s gotten a bit better. In fact, he’s shown greater improvement in a few years than Nick had at a similar stage of his career.
by YellaFella on Dec 19, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And you are pointing out how INCREDIBLY limited his game is
Nick Young has two choices when he gets the ball? Why would mgmt give him 9 mil a year?
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
Not that I'm advocating for $9m per,
but you make not having the ball sound so insignificant… Stuff happens off the ball. Like for example, wearing the opposing SG out by forcing him to chase you around screens. Or for another example, defense.
If you watched our first preseason game
You’ll see how much shooting matters….
That’s actually the biggest hole on the team right now. If Lewis and Mason don’t shoot well from 3, and Wall, Crawford, and Singelton don’t develop an outside shot, this team will see the softest zones ever. and nobody will be able to drive.
But how much does shooting matter, this year?
Sure it sucks to watch a crappy team on the court. But I am watching this team to see them work hard, to see Javale, Wall, Vesely and the rest show development, to watch Blatche work hard and make his name more than a league-wide joke, and watch the guys play hard. None of things are affected enough by NY’s presence to warrant paying him what he wanted.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
actually that is an argument for a higher ceiling, not a lower one...
it means that he is not working from a earlier base that can’t be improved upon…
example…was Tiger Woods potential expanded or contracted after he rebuilt his swing after winning the Masters in record form in 1998….
(and no, I am not comparing NY to Tiger Woods, the point is rebuilding from the ground is done specifically to expand ceiling usually for elite athletes)
iphone grammar police...
that should say
(and no, I am not comparing NY to Tiger Woods, the point is rebuilding from the ground is usually done to expand the ceiling for elite athletes)
i've heard this before
rook, when we traded gilbert for rashard lewis you said we’d regret that trade because gilbert was gonna be an all-star in orlando…
nothing hollinger said is inconsistent with an evaluation of nick young that says he’s best suited as a scorer coming off the bench.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 19, 2011 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
hint - not everyone watches games...
many just look at stats and game summaries….many of Nick’s improvement’s last year were subtle and required game watching or advanced stats. In addition, his injury and Crawford breakout made people quickly forget Nick’s improvement…
This also isn't true
I think most people on the board watch all the games. Just because you don’t happen to agree with a poster on the value of player X does not mean you are missing a nuance,
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
by Sean Fagan on Dec 19, 2011 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How do you know this? This is just supposition with no basis in fact.
with no facts behind it. Please provide evidence of this. Any basis would be fine. Do you have a survey? Stats from game threads? Just because you “think” doesn’t make it true. I stand firmly behind what I said. Quite frankly, it is obvious to me with some of the clearly incorrect assertions made than can easily be countered with stats and video.
I think there is a much higher probability, yes much higher, that “many” people can’t find the time to watch every game.
I would also mention, that if you are going to serve as “neutral moderator”, you should be neutral. I don’t see you jumping into threads to point out what you believe are “assertions” rather than "facts’ when you agree with them.
I simply ask that if you are going to moderate, moderate as a neutral observer, base your assertions and input on facts, and when you are incorporating opinion make sure it is separate from your moderation duties, which you handle well and is greatly appreciated.
And by the way – if you want two links in the last two days of unbalanced moderation, I will provide them if you find it helpful.
btw-this has nothing to do with my opinion on the QO or deal
it has to do with the fact that there are assertions made on daily basis that clearly aren’t based on facts or the statistics which don’t help drive the discussion forward. To then jump in and say hey, where are your facts on an opinion comment that is subjective, but not doing the same for a comment that can objectively be questioned, seems awfully odd to me and inconsistent at best.
I think the more casual Wizards fan, who doesn't watch many games, mostly highlights
Is A watching more Wizards than the about 97% of NBA viewers and B are possibly stuck with old visions of Nick. First impressions are hard to undo.
I think it’s a fair assumption from DavidDunn that the commenters he points out are possibly from this group and I have not seen anybody, who was pointed out, contradict it.
Even some of the hardcore fans who watch a ton of Wizards and who coment here frequently are not that impressed by Nick’s on ball D, so I’m not surprised if more casual Wizards’ fans wouldn’t be either. I don’t agree with them but they atleast discuss their opinoins.
What I personally don’t like though, and I’m happy it doesn’t happen here very often, is when people just throw out statements like “Nick Young is a lousy defender, trade him!” or Blatche is a lazy bum and a morron!" without any nuance, argumentation or any sign of an educated opinion what so ever. This is not the WaPo forum.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Dec 20, 2011 7:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sean's point is that it's pointlessly inflammatory to suggest people don't watch games here
Let’s all assume they do and find other ways to make your point.
I actually think it's safe to assume that most posters on this board...
Are regular watchers of Wizards’ games. This site, IMO, is more for hard-core fans; certainly, casual fans post here occasionally, but for the most part, the vast majority of regular posters know the Wizards well. That doesn’t mean we agree on everything, but I find most opinions here to be well-informed (even if not always well argued :))
Why are you people in such obnoxious moods??? Geeezzz
How do you know this? This is just supposition with no basis in fact.
with no facts behind it. Please provide evidence of this. Any basis would be fine. Do you have a survey? Stats from game threads? Just because you "think" doesn’t make it true.
The same exact thing needs to be said to you. You haven’t the slightest friggin clue if people watch games or not.
I need to stay off this sight for the day, people rubbing me the wrong way…
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 20, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I am bit trying to get into an argument
But….
There are 20,000 hit on this site a day according to Mike. Game threads fluctuate drastically from game to game. And in general, probability says that many people are not staying up watching west coast games or the Wizards out of the playoff race.
I didn’t make an assertion of fact. Sean did. I would love to see any information that supports his position.
My main point is that making clearly non factual statements about Nick Young’s game last year means their is a strong likelihood that people didn’t watch everything. That is not inflammatory in the least. And it has nothing to do with whether one person thinks he should stay or go, or if he is a core piece, or better than Blatche. When people say stuff can so easily be refuted by objective stats, it would lead to the subjective assumption based that try may have not watched all of the games base on a reasonable set of facts and probability.
So I will end it here, an I will follow the guidelines set by Mike on this topic, although I disagree that it meets the inflammatory threshold as it can be backed by probability and the objective reviews of data.
by DavidDunn on Dec 20, 2011 6:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I didn’t make an assertion of fact.
Yes you did. This one in particular:
many just look at stats and game summaries….
Its an assertion hidden inside of an implication that anyone who holds a view different than the one you support is obviously not watching the games. And of course you asserted that implied fact without supporting evidence, while demanding the just that from sean.
I think you should calm down. Its basketball.
On your point, Its possible to see what you want to see, and its quite natural to reinforce whatever preconceived notion you hold. For example: DWade gets a highlight dunk “I told you Nick was a bad defender”. Nick misses a few shots coming off screens “I told you he was a blackhole”. Et cetera ad infinitum.
I am still waiting for someone to prove this incorrect
There is an old saying that my basketball coach used to use…
If you think I am talking about you, I probably am.
If people don’t fit into that category, then there really is no offense to be taken.
I didn’t call out a commenter….I said many…and yes, you are right, that part is an assertion of fact, and has not been disproven…
You made the assertion. Yours is the burden of proof.
Anyway, some people can recognize their error, and others are too proud to do so. If you think I am talking about you, then I probably am.
An assertion of (alleged) fact:
hint – not everyone watches games…
many just look at stats and game summaries
An assertion of opinion:
This also isn’t true
I think most people on the board watch all the games
You see there, if you just put “i think” in your comments you come off sounding much nicer.
by MR on Dec 20, 2011 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
Not even sure Nick wants to play here long-term
He’s a west coaster and made it clear there would be no discount for the Wiz despite being the team that drafted him. Had some bitterness obviously from the Gilbert years, which is why I don’t know he’ll ever develop here like we want him to—the only possible option was to give him the deal he wanted right now when nobody else saw the logic in doing so.
I worry his recent improvement may be more related to his free agency than a desire to succeed for the Wizards.
If he really shows some additional ability this year we may have missed out on his best price, but at even $8 million per season how much more would anyone offer him? I don’t EVER see the bidding going over $11 million a year barring some crazy leap forward, so it’d be like sacrificing a few million a season for some due diligence.
Of course, at $3.7 million Nick is a steal, and we may have the option of letting him audition for a playoff team—sending him for some more young pieces and preferably draft picks and then have the same option of signing him after the season. Should be interesting.
Can someone explain to me how NY is a better player than Ben Gordon, who I think we'd all agree is vastly overpaid.
Gordon’s contract started at $10million and NY is asking for $9million.
He's a better defender.
Ben Gordon is awful on defense. He doesn’t even try. At least NY is a good on ball defender.
by ThePGPhenomenon on Dec 19, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
For his career, Ben Gordon is a better shooter (3-pt, FT), scorer, playmaker,
and rebounder. Their career FG percentages are almost identical (43.7 to 43.5). Of course, Gordon’s body of work is greater.
To his credit, Nick is not as turnover prone as Gordon, but I guess some cynics would argue (I certainly wouldn’t) that it’s easier to keep the turnovers down when you rarely pass.
Gordon’s part-time PG play would account for greater turnovers.
by MR on Dec 19, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
NY is the right fit for this team
Wall (and this team) need a good catch and shoot, efficient scorer at the two. A herky-jerky, unorthodox smallish SG who needs the ball won’t work. Hell, that describes Wall if you put him at the two.
NY has turned into a professional. An efficient score and a good man-on-man defender who, in my opinion, is the only guy on the team who looks the part right now, including Wall. Wall looks a bit like a bewildered kid right now.
I went to the Atlanta game last year and Joe Johnson looked like a freaking greek god compared to our carney act. NY was the only guy who looked like he belonged in the same league and could hold his own. Blatche actually looked pretty good that game but I digress.
NY is the right fit for this team. Wall (and this team) need a good catch and shoot, efficient scorer at the two. A herky-jerky, unorthodox smallish SG who needs the ball won’t work. Hell, that describes Wall if you put him at the two.
My thoughts exactly.
Who won? Who lost? Who cares?! The NBA is Back! - David Aldridge
What seems to be the officer, problem? - Randy Marsh
by Dutch Hoopfan on Dec 19, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
describes Crawford as well
A herky-jerky, unorthodox smallish SG who needs the ball won’t work. Hell, that describes Wall if you put him at the two.
Not making a call on him…but that describes Crawford to a T…
I miss the days were we could all just agree about BRI and income tax and just get along.
Yeah that’s not true at all.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 5:47 PM EST reply actions
Best thing about the debate here is....
…Rook’s passion, vision and steadfastness — agree with it or not.
Compare EG’s demeanor. The team has lost its soul under EG and it is not even moving forward versus the competition. For example, if you don’t want to commit to a multiple year contract for Young, who is the target and what is the strategy to get him? And the 2 slot was in good shape last year compared to the 3, 4, 5. When is Ted going to act? 3-7? 5-20? 20-46? Please, some passion from the brass.
And what, exactly, was the team's pre-EG soul? Jordan (the exec version)? Unseld (the GM version)? EG's an upgrade to that...
who is the target and what is the strategy to get him?
This is poker, not uno. Do you expect him to tip his hand?
I would say that..
….a lack of basketball IQ is what defines this team around the league.
The second cultural attribute is a lack of attention to defense. This isn’t surprising given that EG bet on Arenas and Jamison. Blatche watched Jamison for years doing 20, 10 and no D and getting kudos. Young watched Arenas having a great time without playing D.
Like it or not, that’s what it is.
In terms of playing his hand, whatever he is doing now isn’t working. The team says one thing (e.g., wanting continuity), and then doesn’t lock up Young. Who’s on first?
One player
How is he not focusing on continuity? He didn’t extend one role player, and he’s screwing up the rebuild? I’m not buying that. It’s BS. Did you want to pay Nick $40 mil? That’s out of the question.
If he signed everyone that was already on the team it would not even be rebuild at all. We would have our starting 5 for the next 5, 6, 7 years. He’s passing on a solid player for a ton of extra flexibility, cap and roster, and the chance to obtain a better player eventually.
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by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2011 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
Defined before EG?
Is that like asking how Kyrgyzstan was defined before getting its independence? Maybe it’s better, but so what?
ReturnofSwagger explained the strategy best: " the chance to obtain a better player eventually". The key words being “chance” and “eventually”. And how much “better” remains to be seen.
You implied that the team had something that was lost during EG's tenure.
The team has lost its soul under EG
I’m just trying to suss out what in the world you’re talking about, because EG is by far the best GM we’ve had since the Reagan years.
Umm
I don’t always want passion from my GM. I do think that EG’s rebuilding plan hasn’t made the most sense to me. He tends to draft athletes over shooters, constantly. He likes tweeners way too much.
EG has made some above average movies, but bad luck in the lottery has hurt the team more than anything else. When a draft is 4 deep, the Wizards seems to pick 5th. When a player is projected to be taken before the Wizards pick adn they trade their pick, he ends up there. It’s been a weird world in a lot of ways.
Completely, utterly wrong.
Do you understand what a rebuild is? Overpaying role players (which right now fits Young) ends up hurting you in the long term.
Under EG’s rebuild — mandated, correctly, by Leonsis — the Wiz now have young players with potential, cap room, lots of traded assets, and a potential superstar to build around. That, in my mind, is the blueprint for a successful rebuild.
Now, they’ll find out which of the young’uns can play. If they’re core pieces, Ernie will pay them accordingly, I believe. If not, he’ll let them walk and someone else can overpay them.
Overpaying a 2 now makes no sense: first, reliable SGs aren’t that hard to find, and secondly, Young has yet to prove he’s a star in the making. If he proves it this year, he’ll get paid. I think he’ll prove he’s a solid 2, but not an all-star.
If you think he's a solid 2.....
….like I do, then the proper strategy would have been to lock him in for several years. The Wiz had bargaining power with the right of first refusal. Next year, he’ll be unrestricted and he is as good as gone. So, that’s one tactical mistake under Ted’s strategy.
The second mistake was not trading up and drafting somebody they need with LOTS of talent.
There have been a lot of poor draft picks with this franchise. Also the franchise has a bad reputation in developing young players, especially big men.
For Ted’s strategy to work, management needs to dramatically improve execution in a few areas where they historically have been weak.
How do you know the Wiz didn't try to lock Young in?
If they offered him, say, 4 years/$22 million, he may have rejected it. They could have offered him more than that, or less, of course. So you have no idea if a tactical mistake was made.
Re: drafting up — what would you have given away to trade up? It was also pretty well agreed upon that this was a draft which may not have any future stars. Trading up for Kanter is a lot more dangerous than trading up this coming draft for someone like Davis.
Second point on this: how do you know Vesely won’t pan out? He looked good in the first preseason game. And if we traded up, we don’t get Singleton. I like the draft, considering the dearth of available talent and our drafting spots.
I also disagree that EG’s execution has been poor. Abe wanted a deep playoff team built around Arenas a few years ago; Ernie got him that. It’s not his fault that injuries derailed that plan. Now, with a new plan of blowing it up and starting over, I can’t imagine how he could have done things any better.

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