Does Anybody Else See A Problem Here?
by SpecialSauce on Nov 16, 2011 4:04 PM EST
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Look at this picture closely....
What do you see?
Well, there's Derek Fisher, Russell Westbrook, Carmelo Anthony, Mo Evans, Tyson Chandler, Roger Mason Jr., Etan Thomas, Jason Terry, Andre Iguodala, Al Horford, and several other NBA players pictured.
Billy Hunter is also there, however he is being blocked by the back pack that Westbrook is wearing...yes, Russell Westbrook found it necessary to wear a friggin' back pack to the press conference!
What I see is a stage full on people influencing major decisions on a billion dollar industry.
You know what else I see?
MAYBE as many bachelor's degrees as you and I have fingers on one hand!
Clearly there are lawyers in the room and Billy Hunter is a barred lawyer, but these players are ultimately signing on the dotted line on how to restructure the finances of a billion dollar industry.
The players hear this: High profile players tell them they need to disband the union? They listen to a lawyer tell them that he's going to get them 3X's the money they were owed on their contract? All while sticking it to these rich owners who always let it be known that THEY can outspend the players and their teammates combined any day of the week?
This "negotiation" has been a complete joke and I'm not pointing fingers at either side as the both deserve plenty of blame for the point that they've come to and the future of the 2011-12 season, but I can't help but think that there will always be "issues" when these collective bargaining agreements end and a new deal is needed, because of the active players being so heavily involved in the deal.
I definitely think the players need to be a part of the process, but I'm not so sure that guys that have literally never spent a day in a college level class (hello Tyson Chandler), should have anything to do with making these agreements.
In fact, once the owners last deal was presented to the player reps, many couldn't even get in touch with their teammates to educate them on the latest proposal and collect their feed back.
This is a great example:
"[Los Angeles Lakers players rep Shannon] Brown said that the players' association was vigilant in sending out a steady stream of emails to its constituents as developments in negotiations occurred. He said he knew of player reps trying to reach out to their teammates only to find the phone number they were provided with had been changed or disconnected."
Billions of dollars at stake here and the player reps can't even get in touch with the players they supposedly "represent" to talk about the deal.
You think when Ted Leonsis was making major deals at AOL or Paul Allen at Microsoft or Micky Arison with Carnival Cruise Lines, that they couldn't be reached when the contract was on the table?
Of course not, these are educated, smart, and savvy businessmen that know how to negotiate, get big dollar deals done, and run major corporations.
What does the NBPA have on stage representing them? Russell Westbrook, his one semester at UCLA, and a back pack filled with no books in it.
The NBA: Where Amazing (Stupidity) Happens
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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I'll agree with you that no player should have worn a "Thunderpack" to these conferences and everyone should have been in a suit.
You’re right that very few of these guys have their bachelors degrees, but that’s because the system allows, encourages, and basically requires that players must leave ASAP from college as soon as their stock is at a level, and also players who declare for the draft go pro once they are drafted, unlike baseball and hockey where players could keep amateur status.
At least with Ex-Com, it’s a different story
President Derek Fisher – has a BA in Communications from Ark-Little Rock
Matt Bonner has his degree from UFL
Mo Evans has his from UT-Austin (albeit he graduated just this year)
Etan Thomas has his from Syracuse
Roger Mason left UVA a yr early, but he may have his degree by now.
Chris Paul was on track to get his degree in three years from Wake, but left after his 2nd year of college ball, it’s possible that he may also have his degree.
Not saying that a college degree means that you’re smarter or that it’s a prerequisite to getting in ex-com, but it is probably not an accident that most of the ex-com members, if not ALL of them have their college degrees, or at least are very close to it. Owners may have some “latent arrogance” on those without degrees, since almost every owner if not every one has a bachelors, if not more.
Paul Allen dropped out of school like a lot of the tech guys.
And Arison never finished school according to Wikipedia. I’m sure there’s more, but it doesn’t really matter.
EXCELLENT point
If we’re going to be paranoid, why don’t we suggest the NBA is intentionally keeping their work force ‘stupid’…that is if ‘intelligence = a bachelor’s degree’…which it certainly does not
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Nov 18, 2011 8:19 AM EST up reply actions
NBA players are either stupid children or predatory thugs.
Sometimes it’s hard to tell the fans from the haters. How do people follow a sport where and have no respect the players as human beings. It must be similar to watching horse racing for them.
by djnnnou on Nov 16, 2011 5:38 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
LOL these guys can't even wear suits to the meetings!
Hoodies and jeans? disgusting.
Formerly know as iNFamous SWaGG
Exactly
This isn’t you going to the club. You are conducting business. One of the reasons why you dress up for occasions like this is because you don’t want your attire to become the focus of the discussion. I can see why these owners aren’t taking them seriously. If you had an employee coming to you in a button and jeans to discuss millions of dollars, how seriously would you take them?
by ThePGPhenomenon on Nov 16, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
Even the late Steve Jobs
would be in a suit if he was an NBA owner or was an NBPA rep….. Fisher and Hunter have done their part. Evans has too. Some of the players just don’t look serious. Maybe if they were all in warm ups of some sort, then we’d say, they’re serious about playing… but they’re not.
Not so sure about Steve Jobs and the business suit . . .
http://gawker.com/5591035/when-steve-jobs-refused-to-wear-a-suit
When an AT&T representative suggested to one of Jobs’ deputies that the Apple CEO wear a suit to meet with AT&T’s board of directors, he was told, “We’re Apple. We don’t wear suits. We don’t even own suits.”
There are some pictures of him wearing a suit in his younger days, but in his later years it was mostly the trade-mark black turtle neck and jeans.
Having said that perception does matter and there is an element of PR going on. Still, as far as the legal dispute goes, it won’t be an issue as far as how the judges decide on the law.
This might be a good time to note that I wear casual clothes to work and meetings for my job
by Mike Prada on Nov 17, 2011 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
And you're not even locked out
These guys aren’t anyone’s employees at the moment. The owners have them locked out.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Nov 18, 2011 2:24 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Heh
I wear my ’skins or ’zards hat at work, jeans, and a hoodie with holes in the damn elbows…
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Nov 18, 2011 8:20 AM EST up reply actions
they're basketball players, not investment bankers
if I was going to be sitting in a meeting all day I would definitely rather wear comfortable clothes if given the choice
by tmoneyttime1 on Nov 20, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I understand that part
but for press conferences that are on TV, these send out a message to the public. If they are all in “street clothes” then that wouldn’t send a good PR message, and the NBPA has tried to win the PR battle, at least with fans.
These guys are not business men, but that doesn't mean they are dumb...
They are represented by laywers and Fisher. They do the details and tactics. Did they do a good job at it? No, in my opinion they didn’t. They handled it all wrong from failing to create leverage by signing a decertification petition in july, to communicate amomgst themselves and the tremendous PR fiasco throughout the whole presence.
But is that so different from the stupid shenanigans in Washington about your national debt ceiling or the utter fiasco that is the Euro crises over here? No, it’s not. And those are not dumb people you know.
I’m not saying screwing up negotiations to the point where we are not having a season is Ok because others mess up too. I’m saying that the players are perfectly capable of forming an opninion on the big concepts. With or without wearing a suit. Its not rocket science.
I do believe the players, other than the ones in the comitty that have been involved the whole time, should not be negotiating with Stern & Silver. Its not their world and they aren’t trained for it. You’ll end up asking if Stern is ‘disrespecting’ you, rather than where he thinks the owners see wiggle room on the issues (looking angerly at you mr. Wade!) It causes the wrong dynamics to interfere with the proces and ultimately hurts your cause.
To conclude, I believe this is a picture of monday’s meeting and those guys probably are the player reps. That meeting wasn’t a negotiating session with the NBA, it was just a evaluation of the main concepts. The press conference was on the outcome of their meeting so it’s perfectly normal to me that they are in the picture (pun intended)
by Dutch Hoopfan on Nov 16, 2011 7:02 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
- throughout the whole
presenceproces
Also a last not: the internal communications problem and external comunications problem (the non functioning PR machine) are examples of a lack of organization from the NBPA. That’s on NBPA Hunter and Fisher who should have hired qualified people to take care of those things. It has nothing to do with whether or not most players have a degree.
by Dutch Hoopfan on Nov 16, 2011 7:10 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Well said . . .
especially with Hunter pulling in $2.5 million a year.
On the other hand, part of the onus is on the players. Even though the union has been warning players about the potential for a lockout for at least two years, I think there’s a sense that some players did not have really taken the threat seriously. Communication also works two ways. The reps need to be in contact with their teammates, but the teammates also need to reach out to the reps and make themselves available. I’m not so sure that that’s what happened here. It’s a study in contrasts between the NFLPA and the NBPA. The NFLPA had its act together from day one — even last year in the season opener you had the players making a show of solidarity at mid-field in the opener between the Saints and the Vikings. The union, the reps, and the players were all singing from the same hymnal. The NFLPA had a lock-out fund in place, I don’t believe the NBPA does — I believe they are relying on informal support from veterans to younger players.
In the case of the NBA, I think the players have started to develop a strategy — even though they could have handled the PR better and put the guys in the hoodies in the back of the photo-op, they are getting much of the substantive side right. Landing and then hiring David Boies as counsel sends a stronger signal to the owners than their wardrobe choices in the photo.
did they fall ass-backward into a great strategy?
it’s a real possibility that the Stern’s media blitz will come back to haunt the league in a big way. He made many statements that are going to be used against the nba in court. Hard to envision that Hunter was so savvy as to allow Stern to dig his own grave (so to speak) but hell i dont know the man and he did get a great deal for the players last time.
Either way, things have taken an interesting twist, imho the payers appear to be gaining some leverage
by DCrez on Nov 17, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed.
The players didn’t appear to have a strong bargaining strategy, but in the end it might work to their advantage. They made significant concessions, Stern made threats of more punitive action if they didn’t concede even more. The legal brief that the players filed in Northern California does of good job of letting Stern’s own words argue the players’ case.
Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Mark Zuckerberg
have even fewer college degrees between them than the people on that stage.
If you’ve been around long enough too, you are bound to learn that success in business and success in an academic setting are often not synonymous. Yes, the ability to read a balance sheet can only help; yes, a degree in labor law is probably very useful; but as with any negotiation, you also have to understand people. You can’t go to school for the last element, but you can always hire lawyers and accountants.
by Vegas010 on Nov 16, 2011 8:25 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
True
Degrees help and are indicative of success in most cases. However, the crux of these negotiations doesn’t require any formal education as profit margins and personal livelihoods are at stake here.
All the details are left to the lawyers who are trained to deal with that stuff, and both sides will have some great lawyers to deal with that stuff.
by thewiz06 on Nov 16, 2011 9:56 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
10 years ago we had Johny Cash, Steve Jobs and Bob Hope
Now, we’ve got no cash, no jobs and no hope…..
by Dutch Hoopfan on Nov 17, 2011 7:44 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
10 years ago we didn't have Tea Party bumper stickers either
Pierre is the smooth operator. @JaValeMcGee34 is the monster you've grown to know on the court.
by Elvin_is_my_Elvis on Nov 17, 2011 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Uncomparable
You cannot compare people like Gates, Jobs, or Zuckerberg to these guys in the picture. Sure those three didn’t graduate from college, BUT they did have incredible intelligence and the genius to build technology that didn’t exist.
Gates: Microsoft
Jobs: Apple, the mouse, Dreamworks, etc…
Zuckerberg: Facebook
Using those three as an argument in favor of having the players negotiate their deal is a pathetic and nonsensical arguement.
by SpecialSauce on Nov 17, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
Are you saying Westbrook is negotiating the labor agreement?
Of course he isnt, but if he was wearing a suit then it would be ok if he did?
by DCrez on Nov 17, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
actually jobs didnt invent anything
dreamworks existed before jobs, he bought for cheap, then asked disney to distribute the movies he made, by the time disney bought back dreamworks it was worth like literally 100x more than what jobs bought it for. Same thing with the iphone. The technology and the concept of the device existed before jobs (in asia) but he added aestetic tweaks to the apple ios and headed the marketing.
U know who else is good at things like marketing and buying things for cheap and possibly selling them back for multiples of what they bought it for…NBA PLAYERS…..
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Nov 18, 2011 2:09 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That is a terrible comparison.
You might as well tell everyone in Harvard, Princeton, Yale and probably every university to drop out of school.
Skins rule
So I'm assuming
SpecialSauce has a finance degree or at the very least is being consulted by the very best in business/financial management? Otherwise someone’s a hypocrite.
by Ball with Wall on Nov 17, 2011 1:40 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Let me put it another way
Either you think the players should have taken the 50/50 deal or you don’t think they should’ve. If it’s the latter you wouldn’t have made this post, but if it’s the former then you’re the idiot because the players have access to financial records that you have not seen, and you are guilty of the same thing you’re accusing the players of – coming to conclusions with inadequate knowledge.
by Ball with Wall on Nov 17, 2011 1:47 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
NO Finance Degree For SpecialSauce
But I’m also not making decisions on a multi billion dollar business.
I also did not graduate with a Molecular Science degree either, therefore I will not be announcing a the cure for cancer.
by SpecialSauce on Nov 17, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
"Look at this picture closely... what do you see?"
I see that almost all the writers in the front row are bald. Mike Prada, meet your future.
As for the merits, when management negotiates with unions in many industries, particularly manufacturing, the same scenario occurs. No degree does not equal dumb. Just because a guy can’t run a financial analysis doesn’t mean he won’t recognize a good or bad deal when he sees it. It just means that the negotiations may need to occur using different language than if the room was full of Harvard MBAs.
by disgrunted on Nov 17, 2011 11:01 AM EST reply actions 6 recs
Hilarious..
“Look at this picture closely… what do you see?” I see that almost all the writers in the front row are bald.
by Dutch Hoopfan on Nov 17, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
/sniff
I missed you…WHY DIDN’T YOU WARN ME?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Nov 18, 2011 8:23 AM EST up reply actions
Suits and business attire are way overrated.
They’re for the people getting paid to rep the folks with the money, when you’re the guy with the cash, wear whatever the hell you feel like wearing. Doesnt change the negotiation one iota.
The players were using the WWMCW standard
What would Mark Cuban wear?
It doesn't take a College degree (OR A SUIT)
to know that the Owners are slinging bull shit.
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
by Rook6980 on Nov 17, 2011 9:10 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
As a fan
Does it make you feel comfortable that the guys pictured above are heavily involved in the negotiating, voting, and approval process to the get the league back up and running?
For me as a fan, it does not. I do not feel like the process is in place to make a deal plausible.
by SpecialSauce on Nov 17, 2011 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
as fans we shouldnt give a damn
we dont get paid to watch basketball. The guys not in suits, this is their job, this is their money. IF you were a player would you not want to be involved in this matter. I dont know where you work, but if there was a strike or a voting going on in your place of employment about how money and what new regulations should be added, regardless of how new or how good you were at your job, im pretty sure you would want to at least have the option to be involved.
I hate how the pro owner side like to compare the players to their place of employment But these people seem to only compare it to THEIR job, which is usually some hourly job or a salary that can only be voided if you are fired. As you move up the corporate ladder you find that theres people who do get paid on salaries attached to contracts similar to the ones the players get. But people are too simple minded to consider that. All that matters is we fans are stuck not being rich or working at jobs we hate and players get paid millions to play a game. Nevermind everything they sacrificed and overcame to reach their position. No, the white “educated” owners are in the right, the ghetto raised colored people are over their heads.
2011 America at its finest.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Nov 18, 2011 2:17 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
A lot of folks
seem to be of the opinion that’s it’s pure genetic fortune that these guys are where they are, and they just need to shut up and be grateful they won the lottery
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Nov 18, 2011 8:25 AM EST up reply actions
i know, its completely ridiculous
on the one hand we have people clamoring that these players shouldnt go to clubs or live the kind of life we would want to if we had their money, and on the other hand we have people suggesting they are spoiled greedy dumb athletes who should just perform for us for pennies on the dollar…i wasnt aware that basic constitutional and human rights werent meant to include pro-athletes.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Nov 18, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
They have a union rep for that
And do you really think Westbrook was heavily involved in this proccess? They didn’t even vote on the deal. Hunter, the guy they have hired to do this, told him it was bull shit. That is the point of a damn union.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Nov 18, 2011 2:28 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Thank you
Somebody tell the owners to act respectable before the guys that make them money should start respecting them.
I'm a Wizards fan. We've been trying to tell you about Lebron for years. Hated the man before it was cool.
by returnofswagger on Nov 18, 2011 2:26 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
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