ESPN ranks John Wall as the 40th best player in the NBA
by Rook6980 on Oct 7, 2011 11:43 AM EDT
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ESPN has been ranking every NBA player, from 500 to 1, and I've been watching every day to see when John Wall would show up... ESPN asked 91 "experts" to rate each player on a 0 to 10 scale (obviously with 10 being the highest). They were asked to rank the players based on "the current quality of each player".
I was pleasantly surprised when 46-50 came and went and John was not there... and then 41-45 --- meaning John was in the top 40...
Well today John Wall showed up in the ranking as number 40. I was surprised at his high ranking, especially since he ranked higher than some All-Star quality players like Gerald Wallace (#48) and Carlos Boozer (#50). I thought John had a good season, and he's got a tremendous future - but if you're ranking just on "current" quality, I think he was ranked slightly high.
What do you think?
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Agree...
Based on “current” quality, John probably is a little high, since all we really have to go on is his rookie year. There were ups and downs, but you could pretty fairly make an argument he was a top-10/15 PG in the league last year. That being said, he definitely wasn’t an All-Star (yet) and I don’t think it’s a stretch to say there were more than 39 better players in the NBA last year.
That being said… This ranking could VERY quickly become too low. And that would be really awesome. But I’m trying to not get my hopes too high, because we all know what happens when you do that with the Wiz…
by jakenbake on Oct 7, 2011 11:52 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
u were surprised john wall was above carlos boozer
did u watch the playoffs? A cardboard cutout of tim duncan would have provided more defensive attention than boozer
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Oct 7, 2011 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think you need to look at an entire season's worth of work....
before you can really rate a player – using just Playoff games… or using Summer League… or (even worse) Summer pick-up games – doesn’t get you much insight.
Obviously Boozer had a bad playoff run last year…. He’s had good playoff runs in the past…
But looking at his entire season as a whole – Boozer played in 59 games, averaged 17.5 points, 9.6 rebounds, 2.5 assists… with a True Shooting Percentage of 59.9% and a PER of 21.42
Not bad for a guy playing in his first year in a new Offensive system, with all new teammates.
I just think that John Wall may have been given a slight bump because of his “potential” rather than his actual production last season.
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
by Rook6980 on Oct 7, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Seconded
I hate it when players are rated solely on a playoff series or even game. Like how Dirk was considered a choker before these playoffs.
I didn't check the numbers but hasn't he been genuinely worse in the playoffs than the RS?
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Oct 8, 2011 4:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, the exact opposite
People just hear something once, and repeat it and repeat it and repeat it. Like the “Dray is overpaid and untradeable” thing – no evidence, but repeated over and over.
by Kenny Sky Walker on Oct 8, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Dirk has had postseason issues.
Not that he had 3-18 nights and they lost, more like he has 23/8 through 3 quarters but finishes the game with 25/10 in a loss.
OKay
he has been worse considerably in the playoffs, and heres reasons.
aside from his 06 playoff campaign, when he was a beast….
Year reg season per post season per
07-08 21.9 13.8
08-09 17.2 20.4
09-10 21.3 17.6
10-11 18.8 15.2
in the only playoff series he had a better per, he played a whopping 5 games.
For those who are wondering why i only looked at per, per (for those who dont know) takes account the entire boxscore, and helps standardize it. It also doesnt really translate defensive efficiency too well (blocks and steals are there but only a small part of the metric) so in essence it works IN FAVOR of boozers ability. Boozer is quite atrocious on defense.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
The difference is minimal
His career per for the regular season is 20.6 in 569 games played. His career playoff per is 18.5 in 60 games. When you factor in injuries, which hampered his atrocious ‘08 campaign, you really don’t see much of a difference. Take that season out and you have a player with a career playoff per of 19.4, which is more than solid. Hell, I’d love to have that productive of a player at our 4 spot.
I think his injuries have a lot do with him sucking
and when you have andre blatche starting at the 4 spot, im sure most other pfs would look like godsends. For the bulls, we payed boozer a max contract to take defensive attention away from rose for spells and get his 20 pts and 10 rebounds, or something close to that. We got boozer to be a low post presence to provide consistent scoring when rose couldnt provide offense (injury, breather, tripple teamed) and when boozer stops doing that, and does even worse than that in the playoffs, and when his idea of defense remains screaming at guys while standing 2 feet away from them and fouling them when they get closer….theres a problem.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
True
But doesn’t the perception of him as an underachiever stem from his contract? I agree that Boozer is drastically overpaid, but that doesn’t diminish his value as a player. He was never a max deal caliber player, and it’s not his fault that he was offered that salary. The fact remains that he’s still a borderline all star and Rose’s best running mate. He just will never justify the contract he was given, and for that reason he is vilified to an extent. If he were making $10 mil a year, I think people would be a lot warmer towards Boozer.
It's also his demeanor
His image only got worse because of his contract.
Bottom line is he is very productive and his defense isn’t as bad as Kevin Love’s for example. I still think he’s a good second banana for Rose.
Piccolomair, do you think Nick Young is a free agency target for the Bulls? If so, how high or low is on the list you think?
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Oct 10, 2011 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions
for the first part of your post, the boozer crique
look below…..
for your second part…
hell yea he is. I think youngs gonna want more than the midlevel exception (will one exist) though, and so look for a team like denver really going hard after nick young (bulls notorious for NOT getting the players they pursue initially) since without jr smith, and without wilson chandler, they need some extra scoring punch to couple with affallo (god how do u spell this guys name, the number of A, L, and F, confuse me!) as a wing player.
But yes, the bulls would love a guy like nick young who can both create his own shot and isnt afraid to catch and shoot. I think the bulls will also look at pursuing a trade with Memphis for Oj Mayo (though i think hes a bit overestimated, and he reminds me of larry hughes, but perhaps with a much better head, and is very close to rose) who would certainly solve a lot of the bulls issues at the sg position, although i dont really trust oj mayos ability to shoot the ball, and his ability to play without the ball in his hands.
Another free agent they might go after is Raja bell, who is essentially a more known (possibly better) version of keith bogans (hes….kinda bad, as a starter especially). Jason richardson and rip hamilton are also names thrown around, but i dont think either are realistic options (nor that good).
THe pool of players remaining wing players is pretty small, and nick youngs stock will rise because of that. Especially after what JT the jet did in the playoffs, alot of contending teams are gonna look to nab nick young, and you can believe that smaller teams will want to obtain him as well as a future trade chip (offer him a lot of money, more than what hes worth, and hope some contender like the bulls gives up more assets than they should to obtain a possible missing piece).
thats my thought at least….im pretty sure most bulls fans will feel the same way..
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
id argue that he isnt roses best running mate
certainly not thus far. Noah and deng offer far more to help rose then boozer. also boozer certainly has the skills of a max contract, i dont think boozers skill was ever in question. But the guy has for several years been injury prone and had multiple seasons where he did considerably worse in the playoffs than in the regular season. The bulls and we their fans always knew giving boozer the max was overpaying, but it was something that had to be done when pretty much every other possible candidate (wade, bosh, lebron, joe johnson, Rudy Gay) was taken.
He is vilified for his play not for his contract. Most intellegent bulls fans realize that essentially boozer was THE only choice for bulls fans once everyone else was taken. Not just because he was the last big name in 2010, but because after 2010 both noah (who got a nice big payday increase) and rose (whose contract option is up after this season and will hence lead to a max contract…whatever that is) so his money is whatever. Its his play that annoys us fans. His not showing up in ANY of the playoff games, his inconsistent play (one day he can do a post spin past the craftiest defenders, the next game he is missing point blank layups) and especially his defense (god i cant begin to tell you how terrible it looks.)
I also should add that i am not totally against boozer, i mean yea if theres a trade get him gone, but its not like i hate him. I dont think many in chicago do. He is by all means a good team mate, and hes shown flashes of his greatness, just very inconsistently. My whole boozer bashing is related to this posts topic, which is the current ranking of nba players (namely john wall) and currently, boozer is not a very good player, regardless of his skill. And ultimately that has also been the story of boozers career, flashes of dominating skills sandwhiched within droughts of health (injuries) and just simply bad performances in key games (playoffs especially). And couple that with his age, the idea that he will get considerably better is almost mythic. If he can just stay healthy and provide close to 20pts and 10 rebounds every game, and just….i dont know, pretend even (seriously, he doesnt even frikin pretend!!!) to play defense….hes worth his overpaid contract. But that certainly wasnt the majority of this season, (okay i get he averaged close to 20/10 for the season, but it wasnt consistent game to game, well at least his scoring wasnt)
So yea….until further notice, boozer sucks at the moment. Nice long lockout should help keep him healthier, hopefully he avoids all gym bags as well, but not the gym itself….
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Current means....
…as of right now. If you’ve watched him play this summer, you would say he’s better than # 40 as of today.
Who do you think Durant would pick to play with him compared to all of other point guards? Wall would probably come up about 4th, which would put him in the top 25.
so we should use these summer league games to qualify who is best players right now
?
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Oct 7, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've played all summer and....
….I guarantee you that I’m better than Rook. In fact, I’ve gotten much better over the summer. And so has John Wall. So whatever you thought he was at the end of last year, he’s better right now.
Oh really
and I suppose you think playing basketball translates in to playing basketball! That’s ridiculous.
by hambonejackson on Oct 7, 2011 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions
wow insightful
but i guess it only applies to john wall, cuz… like no other player in the summer has gotten better than john wall? Im fine with arguments that john wall could be possibly higher on the list, i already said he should be higher than boozer for sure, and im sure you can go through the list and pick out some other names that john wall will probably surpass this year due to those peoples age or misled perception.
But this notion that john wall dominating summer league should somehow equal to his nba basketball skills just has to go. Its impossible to watch these games and make solid comparisons to anything. The talent level isnt all that, and when it is the games are played more for show than for true competition. The defense is primarily non existent, with players trying harder not to look bad than to stop their opponent. And your big point about “hey i got better this summer” is moot because it only works if every other player in the league for some strange reason just stopped practicing themselves (news flash-the guys who are above wall in this ranking, got their because they share similar work ethics, and this includes boozer).
Its fine you want to believe in wall having a drastic improvement this year, any fan would think that of any player on his favorite team…but to base his improvement on summer league games alone (and worse, to go out and basically say he would somehow be the 4th best pg in the league because of summer league games) is only fine if you include the qualifier “btw i am a biased homer”
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
So, what do you think?
Has John Wall gotten better than the other players or not?
ill let you know when the nba starts?
thats pretty much the only answer anyone could actually give you.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
a lot of people on this site are biased homers
STRAIGHT CASH HOMIE
by everybodylookin on Oct 8, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
And what do you see, Lookin?
Is John Wall’s confidence much higher now than last year? Certainly, you can see that.
But does confidence matter? Before answering that, you might want to read what Kobe said recently about Kwame when he was in LA.
well
I meant to say that you can’t just really come to conclusions just off of exhibition games. Everything he’s done in the summer league games are things that he’s already been doing for his whole life so there’s no reason to really come to conclusions about how someone’s season will project based on what they did during exhibition games with other stats.
STRAIGHT CASH HOMIE
by everybodylookin on Oct 9, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
meant to say other stars
STRAIGHT CASH HOMIE
by everybodylookin on Oct 9, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Even more people on this site...
…are biased anti-homers, where they cut on the team no matter what, and just hate, hate, hate. Looking at you.
by Kenny Sky Walker on Oct 8, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
physically, there is no denying he's a different player
of course as people love to say about Pierre, the game isnt “run and jump.”
but John looks like one of the top athletes in the league right now, whereas last year he wasn’t aside from straight line speed (that he often couldnt control)
i should say for the record
that i do like john wall, even though he is a considerable rival for rose, i like the way he plays and how hard he takes losing. I mean the guy was heartbroken when kirk hinrich left..and i doubt its cuz they were best friends or anything. He k new the makeup of the team and what they were losing.
Wall was injured and a typical rookie last year, no idea of how to pace his body, and limited further by nagging injuries, and usually players get a lot more athletic from year one to year two (and again to year three). So yes he will be better than last year, but i honestly think this (and many other) rankings take that into account when they do their placing.
Like i said i dont mind anyone saying hes going to be better, even considerably better. I dont even mind actual arguments that will make him better in the nba. But i just dislike the idea that A) he will be better because for some reason his play in summer league will somehow completely translate into what he will do in the nba (when i think he couldve dropped 40 in summer league games straight out of college so long as he was healthy) and B) he will be better because he has been practicing (because no one else in the league does that or something).
Otherwise, cheer away for wall, call him your savior and a future mvp candidate and what not, cuz you guys should do that as wizard fans. Its just taking the idea of practice and the way a person plays in summer league to a point of seriousness in evaluating talent, its just wrong.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Question for Piccolomair
Wall averaged about .6 ppg less if I’m correct and shot it significantly less efficient than Rose, but he did had about 2 assists and a steel more per game. Not sure about the TO’s and since im on my phone I’m not checking the numbers right now but Wall did on a team with significantly worse talent than Rose’s (that Bulls team wasnt all that either but it was better than last yrs Wiz by far) + Wall had nagging injuries.
My question is, do you, as a Bulls fan, think Rose was better as a rookie than Wall?
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Oct 9, 2011 5:52 AM EDT up reply actions
unfair question right?
Bulls are my team and rose is our savior so I, biasedly I should add, should pick rose. But i think wall did have the better rookie campaign. A big reason to that is when rose came to the bulls, our great front office guys (sarcasm) decided he would come off the bench till he learned the NBA game. Rose wasn’t brought in to be our hero right off the bat, he was treated like another player…and roses personality is that of a shy kid not looking ruffle feathers. If not for early injuries to Ben Gordon and then Kirk hinrich, rose would not have started in his rookie season. I think for wall he was thrust into the hero role right after Gil left, and it was a lot of pressure for the kid, but i think it helped him quite a bit (cuz he cud take it)
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
heartbroken when Kirk left???
I think he was thrilled. First Gil gone, then Kirk….finally no more washed up vet guards he had to defer too. Sure he said the right things but I think you could see the team was finally his and he liked it.
McGee was the heartbroken one
When Hilton was shipped off. That was kind of weird. Wall quickly got over the loss of Kirk because of the attitude Evans and Crawford brought. It felt like the addition of those two is when the team really became Wall’s.
?
http://www.prosportsblogging.com/2011/02/25/fallout-from-kirk-hinrich-trade-and-john-walls-honesty/
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Another question for Piccolo
You apparently agree that Wall will be better this coming season, but not because of summer league or summer practice. If not for those two things, why would Wall or anybody else be better in Game 1 of this year versus Game 82 of last year?
Separately, watch the confidence with which Derrick Williams plays tonight in LA and tell me he’s not going to be an all-star in the NBA.
im not saying wall wont be better cuz of those things at all
I’m saying to wait until the actual season starts and he plays his best before u start jumping horses. Wall isn’t the only NBA a player who is working on his game. He will be better, but so will many other NBA players. He could be better (more athletic and a more accurate jumper) but might not look like the 40/10 averaging monster in summer league.
The nba’s best aren’t just the most skilled or most athletic players, they are also the most productive. And there’s far more factors that lead into being productive in the NBA than athleticism and general skill alone. He needed a jumper so that he could adapt to the NBA a bit more, so maybe he is offensively more potent now,…..if he can learn when he should rely on the jumper and when he should go to the rim. Then there’s defense, and while wall had active hands PnR defense alluded him last season (happens to them all). You won’t be able to tell if he got better in these two (and there other) areas until the season actually begins
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
The ratings are subjective despite the number attached to them...
I do think the raters considered the show(s) Wall put on this summer, it was hard not to see the potential in that. The proof lies ahead in the regular season, whenever that happens to take place.
Wall vs. Rose
I’d have to say that Rose was better than Wall as a rookie for two reasons. First, Rose shot .475 and Wall shot .41. Second, Rose outscored his man by 1+ (source: 82games) while Wall was outscored by 3. The latter number accords with my impression that Wall got toasted by a bunch of unprepossessing point guards last year.
I’ve been a Bullet fan since the days of Jeff Malone, and during that time I’ve seen a lot of bad teams with bad players (Doug Roth, Mel Turpin, etc.). I really hope that Wall will make the team great. But unless he improves on D (half the game) and learns to shoot, I don’t see how that happens without some excellent teammates. If the future Wall is your best player, seems like you get to lose in the second round a lot, unless the supporting cast is tight. And right now, it isn’t…
One other thing: I see a lot on this sight about the Thunder “model.” The Thunder had 4 top 5 lottery picks in 3 years, unless I mistaken, and they happened to be in position to draft a vicious beast. That isn’t really a repeatable model. A corollary: If the Wizards don’t suck next year (assuming there is one), our GM is going to have be awfully sharp to surround Wall with the talent to win a title.
thunder really benefited from the leagues
Incentives for the new team. They got to keep really good sonic players and added great talent in that deep 07 draft…..its not like they had to do great long term planning like most NBA teams…they were given the advantage in terms of team construction.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
the cynic in me thinks the "OkC model"
is a way for an owner to justify losing a lot for several years while not spending any significant money to try and upgrade the team via FA.
55 last night for Wall...
Plus a few dunks for the highlight reels and a dougie to boot.
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