Curley Howard to the Bakers or Kinks - a fairy tale with a not so happy ending.
Anyone as cynical as me may have noticed some of the bizarre rumors we've heard coming out of the Collective Bargaining sessions and, if you are like me, you may have drawn some weird conclusions.
We all know the issues backwards and forwards by now. The Owners and their front man David Stern have been harping on the same talking points from day one. By now, anyone that follows basketball can recite them in their sleep:
- "22 of 30 teams losing money"
- "The League lost $300 Million last year"
- "Small market teams are at a disadvantage"
- "System changes are needed to improve League competitiveness"
- yada, yada, yada.
Even the players seem to have been resigned from day one that there were going to be major give backs during the negotiations; conceeding a roll back from 57% of BRI to 52.5% of BRI without much of a fight. The union leaders seem willing to bend on certain "system changes" - as long as they don't severely cripple player movement. The end of the Lockout will not be determined by anything the Players or Union accomplish. The end will happen when the Owners think they have squeezed enough out of the Players. Once the Owners think they've gotten everything they want... and even a little more; then Basketball can resume.
Now that the Owners have the Union on the run and have extracted enough money to offset their claimed "losses", they are in the process of making changes to the "system" to ensure future competitiveness of the League. You know, the changes that are critical for small market teams like Minnesota, Milwaukee and Charlotte to compete on even terms with L.A., Chicago and New York.
After the break, we'll discuss those "necessary system changes" that the Owners want to implement.
What are these monumental system changes that will allow Minnesota to win a Championship next year? Well, here's what we've heard so far. The MLE will be reduced from $5.8 Million to $5 Million (and probably one year shorter than allowed in the last CBA). They may (or may not) reduce maximum contract lengths by a year. The Luxury Tax will most likely be increased - but we won't see anything near the 3X or 4X Taxes the League was clammoring for earlier in the negotiations... Probably more like 1.5X and 2X. They may eliminate the bi-annual exception (which, as everyone knows, was a HUGE contributor to escalating salaries..... wink, wink).
Hmmm... Those don't sound like earth-shattering changes to me. There may be other changes... but still those few minor tweaks will help Minnesota compete on even terms with the mighty Lakers? I don't think so. I mean, the Lakers and Knicks will probably STILL be able to afford the stiffer tax penalties. Mark Cuban will still go after every Free Agent that he thinks will get his team closer to another title; despite being sued by his minority partners for running the team in the Red. Cavaliers Owner Dan Gilbert will go back to thinking his team is the Mona Lisa. Robert Sarver will continue to run a slip shod operation, blame the escalating players salaries, all the while claiming poverty.Oh yeah, and Minnesota will continue to draft every Point Guard, and undersized Power Forward available for the next decade.
Now for the bizarre part....
We hear rumors that the sign-and-trade provision has made it through negotiations intact. WHAT??!!!?? Isn't that the insidious loophole in the old CBA that allowed teams to be over the Salary Cap, but still trade for a Free Agent, AND pay him a max salary with the extra year and max raises? Wasn't that one of the areas of the old CBA that was inflating player salaries and creating competitive IMBALANCE? For an example: Carmello Anthony forcing his way out of a small market team, and essentially dictating where he wanted to go (ie: big market team). Essentially, Carmello got his cake, he ate it, AND got a bakery built on his property. Where's the "competitive balance" in that? Why are the Owners now OK with Sign-and-trades? The Union must have been stunned... Billy Hunter probably blinked.... stammered for a second, and quickly regained his senses and said "OK, we agree too... uh, but reluctantly". (While Derrick Fisher snickered behind his clipboard in the background). Bizarre, no?
The latest buzz from New York is that the Amnesty clause may be changed. The original thought was that amnesty was needed to temper any severe changes to the cap or luxury tax. For instance, if there were a Hard Cap (or severe 3X Luxury Tax) implemented, the Amnesty would allow teams a one time chance to release a player on their roster and get under the cap or avoid a big tax bill. It would give all the teams a chance to fit their current situations into the new rules- without taking a huge hit. Perfectly reasonable to allow an exception early in the CBA to allow teams to "catch up" and stay within the new rules. Except, where's the Hard Cap? Where's the ultra-punitive Luxury Tax? It seems like those features have fallen off the negotiating table. Yet, we are hearing that the Amnesty may not be a one time, get under the cap feature - but more like a "get out of jail free" card to be used whenever a team wants to in the next two (or more) years.
So now the logical thinker in me is saying "Wait.. wait.. wait... I cannot believe what I'm hearing." The Owners, who have said all along that they are losing money, now want a way to add a player by Free Agency - and then if he doesn't pan out, release him and use the amnesty clause to take his salary off the Salary Cap? Or, worse yet trade for a player, and THEN Amnesty him? How does that save money? How does that help make the League more profitable? More importantly, how does that make the League more competitive? The Owners will STILL have to pay the released player, AND they will have to pay who ever they sign to replace him. Bizarre, no?
Now the cynic in me sees a sinister twist to all this... Meanwhile, the conspiracy theorist in me thinks that somehow David Stern is behind all this. There are others in there, but those two guys in particular think that something stinks; and it may sound weird, but they're starting to convince me.
Which teams benefit most from sign-and-trades? (Hint: It isn't the Minnesota, Milwaukee or Charlottes of the League)... and who will benefit most from an extremely friendly and flexible amnesty clause that has very few restrictions and a long shelf life? (Hint: It's the same teams that would benefit from S&T's).
Now the wacko right brain part of me chimes in. I don't let him out much because he's kinda out there. He says: "Let's do a fictional trade, shall we?" Let's say that there is a big market team out there called the Burbank "Bakers". They could trade a good young Center named Drew Barnum, a solid vet named Lamont Odor and a couple other pieces to a team called the "Disney Mice" ... The "Mice" would trade back the League's best Center... Defensive player of the Year, Curley Howard - along with a player named Gilbert Eeriness who has a massive contract, but has declined in recent years due to injuries. The contract for Eerieness is one of the worst in the League. In order to avoid paying the massive Luxury Tax bill, the "Bakers" could immediately cut Gilbert Eeriness and use their amnesty clause to reduce (or eliminate) his Cap number. The Disney team could then start their rebuild by releasing (with amnesty) Hedudu Terdglue, and their total salaries would be reduced by over $30 Million - with a nice building block in Drew Barnum. Interesting scenario, isn't it?
By the way, the same type of trade could land Curley Howard on the Metropolis Kinks or the Windcity Blues. And just wait until Paul Chris is available - there could be even more Sign-and-Trade fun in the future for the Metropolis, Bakersfield, Windcity and Everglade teams.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, I'm still trying to figure out how these system changes will help Minnesota, Milwaukee and Charlotte.
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Nice post. My take on BRI
Watching Sterns new conference I get the feeling that Stern does not have the 16 votes for anything over the 50/50 split he wants.
It doesnt matter what the lakers, knicks and boston wants.
Its all about the new breed of owners teamming with the small market owners.
by jmpalomo on Oct 29, 2011 9:09 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I think the "big market/small market" division is somewhat exaggerated.
While it definitely exists, I’d guess the only big market owner that wants to play now, no matter what the split, is Arison; Dolan probably comes close. (Arison obviously has players who will bring in revenue; MSG brings in money even when the team stinks.)
Both Cuban and Buss want players’ salaries lowered; although I’m sure they’d prefer to see a season than not (as would most owners, imo), they probably haven’t reached the point that they see as the tradeoff for them.
I have no idea where Chicago falls in this division; Boston will probably go along with whatever the commissioner says is the road to take.
(Obviously, I’m extrapolating from not much fact.)
I think big market/small market is a misnomer. Great for generating populist anger but not accurate.
It’s basically an ownership thing not a matter of size of market. Miami was the 16th largest TV market and stole Lebron from the 17th largest TV market. That 17th largest market had been doubling the payroll of most other teams in the league including much bigger markets. The 20th largest market(Orlando) pretty much is the epitome of what is wrong with the competitive balance in terms of payroll.
by BayAreaBullet on Oct 31, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Good point. But the owner is spending his own money, no?
Or can a market that small generate enough money to carry that team?
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Oct 31, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
You have a point....
And Tom Ziller hits it on the head with his article on SBNation.com/NBA
The dozen owners who have bought in since the last lockout have an expense that no new owners before that lockout experienced at this magnitude.
It’s not a Small Market vs. Big Market dynamic – but a NEW Owner vs. Old owner… or more accurately, “new” owners being the ones with huge debt and interest payments from purchase of their teams over the last 10 years. Those 12 owners are the ones that are holding up this deal… They are the ones that need these HUGE monetary concessions from the players so that they can offset their daunting interest and debt from purchase of their teams… Owners like Robert Sarver..
Unfortunately, Wizards owner Ted Leonsis probably falls into that same category.
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Partly
Paul Allen is demanding Stern to keep the players share at 47% and he is the owner with 20-30 billion. He is far and away the wealthiest owner. Sarver was sneered at because he is not 1 of the richer owners. Its almost like the guy is a communist. Pauper!.Get a job! Allen is god of the NBA owners. He was invited, maybe, to attend a meeting and his job was to sit there and eye fuck Kessler. Kessler must have gotten wind of Allens plans because Kessler skipped the meeting. It makes me wonder how much clout Allen has. How much of a role does a pecking order of owner wealth play in this clique? I think we will find out.
by hambonejackson on Oct 31, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
In fact
This could all turn in to a soap opera. “As the CBA Turns.” LIke the exclusive lives we live so we argue about money, so go the years of the CBA." (Theme music).
Its main character is Dr. David Stern who is a surgeon and the Commissioner of the NBA. At some point he has to be accused of shooting and killing his childhood friend, little Billy Hunter. There has to something racial involved or it wouldn’t be so interesting. Little Billys mom is a trailer living single mom crack whore collecting welfare. Dr. Davids Sterns mother is an alcoholic, pill popping socialite who is barely married to Dr. David Stern, sr., a well known plastic surgeon of LA starlets. He is famous for inventing the “Stern nose”, a must have rhinoplasty according to economists.
The bottom line is, for the last 15 seasons of the show the CBA is till not resolved. The CBA talks are the shows motif. Maybe they can last 20 years and every now and then, the CBA almost appears to be concluded only to have love, murder, or any of the ten commandments transgressed, to continue the talks.
So who is in on it? As the CBA Turns. Who wants to play Erica? The woman in a trapped marriage to Andray Blatche. Does Javale McGee get Erica? And why is Nick Young sitting in the corner grinning, or is he leering? His hair went to the bar to refill with a shot of Canadian mist. Little did Nick know that his hair just drove with Pamela McGees hair in her brand new Lexus. Destination unknown.
by hambonejackson on Oct 31, 2011 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Why doesn't Stern
slide a piece of paper across the table at those owners that says “Trust Me”…..
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Paul Allen is by far the wealthiest owner
and he wants 47% max to players. Yesterday, Hunter claimed Stern “snookered” him by backtracking to a 47% offer, down from 50%. Talks over. Why would Stern do that? Then you think that 47% is 10% down from 57% and that makes 52%, which is what the players like Durant agree to, but are adamant that it does go any lower. I think the CBA is done.So I agree with you that it comes down to whipping owners to vote for the CBA. Who is getting snookered? Maybe owners like Paul Allen. Its all kabuki theater now and Stern is the lead.Its a question of how influential Allen is. Can he block a deal?
by hambonejackson on Oct 29, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
If he went back to 47% as the players came closer at 52%, isnt that dangerously close to 'not negotiating in good trust'?
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Oct 30, 2011 6:07 AM EDT up reply actions
However, I thought the rumor was that Allen is selling
I guess it would enhance his sale to have a good CBA in place, but he shouldn’t really care on some of the long term stuff.
Unless he’s a proxy for whomever he knows he’s going to sell to, and thus is using his leverage to jack up the sale price by getting a CBA that guy likes.
by Kenny Sky Walker on Oct 31, 2011 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
But why?
Why would they wan’t to lose so much time and money over all this? Why would the other owners who will not benefit in anyway be willing to lockout the players and their chance to make a buck in order to give the Bakers Curly Howard?!
I thought I knew a thing or two about this lockout business but honestly, these recent developments have me scraching my head so hard that I now have a bold spot
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
Because competitive balance was a talking point
And not part of the owners’ real platform :/
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Oct 29, 2011 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but why would the Bobcats lose money so that Howard can go to the lakers?!
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Oct 29, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I was surprised that the union was so optimistic
that a deal would get done Friday after Silver said at the Thursday night press conference that
“they know where we stand” in relation to the BRI.
Because this is nothing more than a money grab from the owners.
They are looking at the current economic decline as a fantastic opportunity to enshrine record profits going forward. They cry broke now, knowing full well that even a 53%BRI under a better economy and new TV deal will make them all more money than their franchises ever dreamt of making in the past.
The lockout is sheer, unadulterated, greed on the part of a dozen or so billionaire owners. Of course it’s their right to do whatever they want, but all the bullshit talk about competitive balance etc is just that- bullshit.
The good news-Just one item left to agree upon
If the system changes are just about all agreed upon then the only thing left is the BRI.
I guess the owners have now put it on the players to take the offer if they want to play and get paid again.
2% of BRI is all they need to figure out.
by jmpalomo on Oct 29, 2011 9:19 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Its only 2%, about 80 million
Id say they lose more than 80 (owners and players) if they lose 2 months of the season… That can’t be it
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Oct 29, 2011 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Dutch
you keep looking at only one year….
The new CBA could be as long as 8 – 10 years… So your $80 Million becomes more like $800 Million.. Then put the anticipated 4% growth in there… and the Owners and Players are fighting over close to $1 Billion
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Touché
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Oct 29, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
i would think that the offers will get harder now, not softer.
Until now every deal took the assumption that every game would be played. Now we know that isn’t happening.
by thewiz06 on Oct 29, 2011 2:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
A good summary of the situation is here:
The month of canceled games represents about $400 million lost to the players and a roughly equal amount for the owners. About $200 million was forfeited when the preseason was canceled. The players will miss their first paychecks around Nov. 16.
Without an 82-game season, the N.B.A.’s projected revenue will decline from the projected $4 billion. Thus, there will be less for everyone to split when a deal is eventually reached. That reality could affect the negotiations, with the league possibly reducing its offer and backing away from tentative agreements on the system issues.
"We’re going to have to recalculate how bad the damage is," Stern said, predicting that the league’s next offer "will reflect the extraordinary losses that are starting to pile up now."
The breakdown came after the parties resolved the second-thorniest item — a new luxury-tax formula. The tax will start as a dollar-for-dollar penalty, just as it is now. But it will increase by another 50 cents for every $5 million spent beyond a set threshold — to $1.50 per dollar spent after $5 million, $2 per dollar spent after $10 million, and so on, according to a person who has seen the plan.
There are some system issues yet to be resolved. For instance, the league wants to prevent tax-paying teams from executing sign-and-trade deals or using certain cap exceptions — both measures the union opposes. But those items are minor compared to the revenue split.
A real compromise in the offing?
The system changes keep inching in the direction the union wants (i.e, no changes, everything left alone) and the BRI percentage seems to be heading in the direction the owners want (50-50).
This was a good read
The idea that small market teams are dictating what the league agrees to in these negotiations is absurd.
Small market teams and amnesty
Does anyone know how the amnestied salaries work with the escrow system and the BRI percentage? If amnesty encourages the rich teams to spend more, that means more escrow money, and potential extra income for the small market teams.
Not necessarily small markets, just teams under the cap
Like the Bulls were for yrs.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Oct 29, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
If the large markets controlled the CBS for the owners then we would have a deal already
by jmpalomo on Oct 29, 2011 3:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Not all large market teams want to start playing right now.
It’s large market teams which are expected to perform reasonably well like the Knicks, Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, and Heat that want to play now and will take almost any CBA.
The Clippers and Warriors are not expected to make the playoffs next year either on paper, though the Warriors made bold pledges to STH’s last year. But with rising star players on these teams, they can make the playoffs with a little luck. I’d think they’re leaning toward playing, but they could benefit in the long term with a long lockout too.
The Hawks are in limbo because of the ownership situation, not because of the basketball, so god knows what will happen to them. and they likely want to do If Meruelo truly does takes over, he will probably want to play sooner than later because he wants to get acquainted with his team as soon as he can. The team should still be a playoff team with an outside shot at Eastern Finals, but this is their ceiling, as we all know, barring one of their core players making big improvements in their games and chemistry.
Teams like the Raptors and our Wizards don’t want to play because this year will most likely be a wash anyway based on regular season record, and top tier free agent market wants to go away from two otherwise world class cities and a new system can try to force players to look at Toronto and Washington as realistic destinations, since perceptions about Toronto as the North Pole and DC’s past dysfunction have been factors to make the teams undesirable, I’ll admit. I know the Wizards at least have some young players that we want to see playing, but both ownership groups are NHL owners as well, and it’s already well documented on how the lockout benefited the Leafs and Caps from a cost certainty standpoint.
Also, note that Stern . . .
said after the most recent negotiation break-down that the lost revenue due to a season delay will “require” the owners to get more than a 50-50 split (which the NBAPA rejected).
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7153136/nba-lockout-david-stern-announces-more-game-cancellations
“We’re going to have to recalculate how bad the damage is,” Stern said. “The next offer will reflect the extraordinary losses that are piling up now.”
Wait a minute: I thought the league was “losing” money last year?
If the league was losing money under the old deal, then delaying the season should be saving it from even worse losses in its operating budget.
Of course, as was obvious all along, even under the 2010-11 deal the league was not losing money. Maybe a handful of teams were, but the league and most teams were almost certainly in the black. Stern’s statements are irreconcillable. Either he is lying now about the league’s financial condition, or he was lying before. His claims are self-contradicting.
Forbes numbers were off . . .
Second, the leaked financial statements for one team, the New Orleans Hornets, closely matched the Forbes data. And the sale prices for some teams have exceeded their figures. The Golden State Warriors were purchased for $450 million in 2010 — more than the $363 million that Forbes estimates they are worth. The Detroit Pistons were recently sold for a price reported to be about $420 million, more than Forbes’s estimated value of $360 million. The Washington Wizards were bought for $551 million last year, a 70 percent premium over Forbes’s estimated price of $322 million. Comparing actual to theoretical sale prices is not always safe because other assets are sometimes packaged with the teams, but the market for N.B.A. franchises is clearly quite healthy and inconsistent with what the league claims to be a failing business model.
The players have already given back almost $300 million a YEAR in concession — that over $3 billion over the next decade when you factor in the likely growth of league revenues.
The owners want $80 million more in concessions a year — $300 million a year isn’t enough for them to bring franchises that are currently in the red back into the black? It’s crazy. The owners gave up nothing relative to the prior agreement. They just were forced to strike a few items off a very long wish list.
As of Friday they stood to walk away with a pretty nice deal. Never mind that actual basketball revenue — as opposed to the limited sources that factor into “BRI” — already already probably effectively reduce the players take to something close to a 50-50 split. Most of the franchises are already profitable, and thanks to player concessions, the owners were in a position to walk away with a really nice deal.
Maybe some of the owners have calculated that they can bleed the players for more. We’ll see. If Stern’s claims about the league losing money NOW are true, then it may turn out that the players actually have more leverage in these negotiations than I initially thought.
very good point
that the 57% split isnt truly 57% when you consider that 60% of luxury suite income and 60% of arena advertising revenues do NOT count towards BRI. Luxury suites for Caps games go for $4500/game or so and there are about 100 of them on the Lexus level…that’s significant income IF the wizards were winning and thus selling.
Be successful at the business of winning basketball games and the team will make money hand over fist.
by DCrez on Oct 29, 2011 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't know how it is for other teams because most teams don't own their own arenas
For the teams that do, and the Wizards are one of those teams, many of the contracts for luxury suite holders aren’t just for Wizards but are multi year deals where the holders get to go to every single event in the building. How is the “wizards” portion divided in this case? I do agree that some formula of this income should go into the BRI, but what portion of suite income is for the BRI in these cases when the NBA team owns the arena and also teams in other pro leagues as well?
by thewiz06 on Oct 30, 2011 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Uh
divide the number of events by the number of events that are team related.
by hambonejackson on Oct 30, 2011 5:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Not exactly that simple, but I see your point.
Players would argue that NBA games would cost more than other games and events in the arenas, which is true in many cases.
NBA basketball generally costs more than NHL hockey in most markets with both an NBA and an NHL team, including NY and LA, though there are notable exceptions like Toronto and Washington, where the NHL rakes in more revenue than the NBA team. Either way, NBA basketball makes more revenues than NCAA basketball, WNBA basketball, Arena Football, NLL lacrosse, AHL hockey and the vast majority of concerts on a per game basis, and the algorithm has to be adjusted in some format. the Union may want a flat percentage and want NBA games to have a higher percentage of the revenues than the NHL, which Maple Leaf and Ted will be adamantly against, because it cuts into the Leafs’ and Caps’ bottom lines.
If you haven't read Kevin Murphy (union's economist) on this subject,
I suggest you do—really good read.
Basically, he says the owners have been losing money the last 3-5 years; before that (at the time they negotiated the last CBA) they were raking it in. When the financial crisis ends, he expects them to again make out well.
“The fact is, guys[ owners] have not done well over the last few years as asset prices generally have gone down. I don’t doubt that. . . .
“If you go back before the last 3-5 years, these guys did incredibly well. Their franchises weren’t going up by 4 or 5 percent, they were going up by 8 or 9 percent a year. They were making money hand over fist.”
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html
by MeToo on Oct 29, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly...
But in the interim a fairly substantial number of teams have turned over… and the newer owners are carrying MUCH bigger “mortgages” while making way less money off their franchises to boot… For example, Teddy paid close to $400 million for a franchise that Abe bought for $1 million (even with adjustment for inflation, I doubt Abe’s sunk costs exceded $20 million). And the franchise fell out of the realm of even marginal playoff teams at exactly the time Ted took it over.
Look at the Pistons, and you see the same thing. Portland. Phoenix. and so on.
The stakes are different and if the players have not grasped that by now, they are getting terrible advice. The parity stuff is pure fluff, it is all about ROI. 50% may not be the most the NBA is going to offer, but it’s damn close. How many games do the players want to sacrifice for, say, 50.6%?
I absolutely agree
but will add that Leonsis, as I understood it at the time, paid a good bit of that money to have full ownership of Verizon Center. (I may be wrong but I seem to remember that he said the Caps would lose money because of rent payments if he didn’t have that.)
And I suspect the players know what you say is right. I’m one of those people who’s always believed the union will settle at a little over 50% (the owners will give them the little over to allow them to save face, I feel) and the owners will “concede” to the players many of the system changes the league has proposed to date.
The Caps had rent payments
but with Ted’s near 50% ownership of the Wizards he paid himself a good portion of the rent too.
I'm not going to defend Stern 100%,
but he’s not necessarily saying two contradictory statements.
Until now, the NBA has made made CBA proposals with the assumptions that no regular season games would be lost, and assuming that 22 of 30 teams lost money, their CBA projected that the league would eventually be profitable one way or another.
However, now we know that an 82 game season won’t happen and there will be true losses this season no matter what, and the league says that is going to have to factor in these costs one way or another, in addition to the previous losses which were addressed in the previous CBA proposals. Third, the new proposals the NBA makes will have to project profitability, if not outright guarantee it. Of course the NBA will never say outright in the public that a certain offer is “THE bottom line” but it looks like the league tried to say that but not in those words, and the NBPA balked, thinking that the NBA is bluffing, which I don’t blame them for doing. After all, the league has made concession after concession so why not make them do it some more when they didn’t give any hard line marks on it yet, right?
so 2 weeks of losses (on both sides)
means the owners have to get 1-2% more over the course of 10 full seasons or so? They lose $200million now, so the players “owe” them $1billion in return? Par for the course from the owners side in these negotiations.
by DCrez on Oct 29, 2011 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Stern last night said the teams need 50% to be profittable. Is that correct? Well, it looks like both sides are dug in at 52% for the players and 50% for the owners.
We will see who blinks to get a deal done.
by jmpalomo on Oct 29, 2011 8:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
great post someting we can finally agree on Rook we still going to war over Nick Young and Crawford though lol when the time comes lol
Okay my take is this all great points by you. I think this lockout would be over if the players had no dropped their BRI number so swiftly. To me that was the thing that has stalled this whole process.
The Owners said they want the players at 47 the players see that and were so shocked that they immediately dropped their pants thinking the owners must be bleeding if they want us that low. The players from a pr perspective got behind early and have never really caught up to the owners shrewd bluffing.
if like you say the system isn’t drastic and is not gonna severely alter the landscape competitively then the players shoulda haggled ever point hell every half point.
and then eventually settled into 53%.
But they crashed quickly and now the owners think they have them on the run until they get them to 50/50
I think Fisher screwed this whole thing up and he’s to blame he is the one who came out 1st concessionary 1st while Hunter was still in the prove to me you are losing money mode.
The players did not stand on the prove me mode long enough if they say on prove me you have lost 300 mill mode longer then worked into giving back that 300 mill slowly and agonizingly the woners push would have been blunted.
Ziller's latest piece on the two cap structure, a commentator said
The NFL is so succesfull because (sorry, iphone so I cant copy-past) there is a hardcap with ungaruanteed contracts and a 52-48 bri split in favor of the owners.
Since I know next to nothing about the NFL, my question is if that is factually correct and if you guys think this is why the NFL is so attractive to watch/ helps competative balance like the commentator suggests?
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
I think even if the NFL didn't have much competitive balance
it would still be the most popular sport in the US. That’s just me though.
Formerly know as iNFamous SWaGG
Well, for one thing
the comment forgot to mention the absolutely massive National Television contracts that the NFL has. The contract for Monday Night football alone is worth more than $1.1 BILLION per season.
The NBA on the other hand has much smaller National contracts… much, much smaller!
Individual NBA teams can negotiate their own local television deals. (like the Lakers with their $3 Billion, 10-year deal with Time Warner). The NFL has NO local television deals…. every game is under National contract.
It’s a LOT easier to be profitable in the NFL with the guaranteed National TV money split up evenly to each team.
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
As for competitiveness...
I think it has more to do with schedule length and the Playoff system than anything…
Think about it… What if the NBA regular season was only 16 games long…? It would not be unreasonable to expect some very, very good, very talented teams to get off to a bad start…. and conversely, you might see some lesser talented teams run off 8 or 10 wins in a row…
Now make the playoffs a single elimination game, and a middle-of-the-pack team (in terms of talent) like OKC or Atlanta could run the table and win the title. Voila…. Parity!
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
Ok, so
The BRI is more inclussive and there is more (equal) revenue sharing, right? How about starpower and second banana (I know none of the players) distribution in relation to competative balance?
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Oct 30, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Obviously - the NBA is a Star driven League
If you want parity…. there are a couple of ways to do it….
1. Reduce the number of games from 82 to 16. Initiate a one-and-done playoff system – as I mentioned above….
2. Reduce the number of teams from 30 to 12 (or so)… Allow each team to have only one player that can make $25 Million, one player that can have $15 Million… and the rest must be $5 Million or less. That way, Kobe, Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Nowitzki, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, Blake Griffin, Derrick Rose, LaMarcus Aldridge, Carmello Anthony, and Amare Stoudemire can get their $25 Million – but no team would be able to accumulate two or more Super Stars…
So it’s pretty obvious that I’m being facetious here… but in my opinion – there’s really NO WAY to make the League more competitive.. And what I mean is that – at any one point in time, there are only so many Super Stars available… The teams that have those stars will compete… those that don’t – won’t….
The only REAL way for bad teams to rebuild in the NBA is through the Draft – and hope that the next LeBron or Kobe is available when your team gets the #1 pick…..
I used to have super powers until my psychiatrist took them away.
I like your idea of 12 teams
Way better basketball.
Alot better competition.
by jmpalomo on Oct 31, 2011 12:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, you know me. I'm a fan of contraction
24 teams should be fine, a hardcap, no exceptions, no trade restrictions, max 3 yrs garuanteed + team max 3 team option yrs, 2 first round picks for lottery teams etc.
In short, I like the NFL system from what I know now.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Oct 31, 2011 6:24 AM EDT up reply actions
95% of the Labor Deal is reportedly done
And it looks almost as same as last year’s CBA. lol… once everyone comes to terms that competitive balance was not the driving force for the lockout and it was simply money (getting what they can now, because you can) … we can move on.
Stern essentially gets enough of what was wanted and they keep the season = big win for owners.
……..
Formerly know as iNFamous SWaGG
in my opinion – there’s really NO WAY to make the League more competitive.. And what I mean is that – at any one point in time, there are only so many Super Stars available… The teams that have those stars will compete… those that don’t – won’t….
I disagree. I think a greater part of the reason there’s no competitive balance is due to roster spots 2-8. The big name/traditionally winning teams have the superstars, of course, but they also have better rosters from top to bottom.
I think that’s where you can make a competitive league, because, while there aren’t enough superstars to go around, there are certainly enough stars and 2nd/3rd tier players. They’re just not ‘going around’, as it were. They’re all going to the big name/traditional winner teams.
And that’s why a stiffer cap and some greater level of revenue sharing would help. Of course we now know that this lockout was never about those issues (thus it was never about competitive balance) in the first place….
Exactly! The problem is not (drafting) the superstars, its the supporting cast
The difference between Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant is the help gets from Pau, Bynum and Odom. Cities like NY and LA have the appeal ánd the money to acquire 2nd and 3rd tier players that small market teams cant get.
"My logic fails all the time...especially when talking to females" Rook6980
by Dutch Hoopfan on Oct 31, 2011 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the number one difference in NFL/NBA competitiveness is attrition
The nature of football ensures that guys don’t last as long and can drop off the map relatively quickly. The way injuries and age plays into the NFL plus the hard cap makes it so very hard to keep a quality team together. It is about tearing down teams not keeping them together. Unless you got rid of stuff like restricted free agency and had much shorter contracts to ensure plenty of player movement I can’t think of a way to tear down teams like age and injury do to NFL teams.
by BayAreaBullet on Oct 31, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
ok i decided too watch an nfl game today...
and i thought as a fan of the wiz why not watch the washington redskins! well all i’m gonna say is:
GET THIS FRIGGIN NBA SEASON STARTED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!
it’ can’t be worse to watch the wiz getting blown out by 30 then watch that stuff i watched today again :)

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