NBA Contract Toxicity Ratings: Gilbert is not alone
It has become popular to discuss Gilbert Arenas as having the most "toxic" contract in the NBA. Toxic in the sense that the Wizards, if they were so inclined, could not move him in part because they would not get equal value for his talent and the trading team would likely not want to take on his contract based on what Gilbert will get paid for the remaining four years of the deal. The contract can also be considered toxic if it prevents a team from making moves to improve its team, due to a lack of salary cap space. I would also add that if a player isn’t outperforming his current wage rate, then that contract should also be considered toxic as the team will have money tied up in an under-performing player. In this light, when we look at the 21 highest paid players in the NBA, it becomes clear that there are a few other toxic contracts out there.
This post focuses on the 21 highest paid players in the NBA according to data pulled from Hoopshype, Basketball-Reference.com, Hoopsworld, DraftExpress and CBS Sports.com. Please note that in many cases the players rank is based only on these 21 players and not necessarily in relation to the full list of NBA players.
So here is the list of toxic contracts in no particular order.
Rashard Lewis, Orlando Magic:
- The Good: About the only good thing about this contract is that the Magic can get out after two more seasons – if they can’t trade him first.
- The Bad: Rashard Lewis is a solid role player who is getting paid like a NBA superstar. Lewis, who has missed 135 games over his 12 year NBA career, is not getting any younger. One would expect durability to be an issue over the remaining years of his contract.
- The Ugly: Lewis’ career averages have him as the 19th best scorer on this list. Rashard also has the second worst career PER rating, but yet he is the 4th highest paid player on the list. $19+ million per season is an insane amount of money to pay for a role player.
Michael Redd, Milwaukee Bucks:
- The Good: One year remains on his contract. At a more affordable price, he could prove to be a valuable guy coming off of a contending team’s bench.
- The Bad: Michael Redd is a top 11 scorer on this list, but given his ability to score the ball he does not possess the talent to push his team deep in the playoffs – as seen in his career 16 playoff games. He is clearly a complimentary player at best, but is currently the 7th highest paid player on this list.
- The Ugly: If you look at games missed due to injury, then Redd has missed more games due to injury than anyone on this list. Over his 10 year career he is averaging 25.2 games missed per season.
Andrei Kirilenko, Utah Jazz:
- The Good: One year remains on his contract.
- The Bad: Durability is a concern for AK47. During his 9 year career he has missed a total of 121 games for an average of 13.4 per season which is a bit above the average for the top 21 paid players.
- The Ugly: It is amazing to consider that a player who is the worst scorer on the list, is near the bottom in PER rating (19th) and has never made an All-Star appearance is the 8th highest paid player in the league.
Gilbert Arenas, Washington Wizards:
- The Good: Gilbert is a 9 year vet, but his body should be rested coming off of 2 injury shortened and 1 suspension shortened seasons. Gilbert, who is currently the 10th highest paid player on this list, has the 7th highest career PPG average of the 21 players. He also has a respectable career PER rating of 20.60. When Gilbert is healthy and focused he is a top 10 talent in the NBA and is still young enough to produce over the remaining years of his contract.
- The Bad: While Gilbert’s current $17M+ salary is big, it also increases over the remaining years of his contract. This means that he will take up an even larger percentage of the teams salary cap in the coming seasons.
- The Ugly: In a word, durability. Gilbert has missed a total of 273 games, 223 if you back out his 50-game suspension. If you adjust for his suspension, only Michael Redd has missed more games due to injury on this list.
Vince Carter, Orlando Magic:
- The Good: While Vince is currently overpaid ($17.5M) for his current level of performance, his numbers are solid. He is currently the 13th highest paid player on the list, while he has the 6th ranked PPG average and the 13th best career PER rating.
- The Bad: Two more seasons at $17.5 million per.
- The Ugly: He was dreadful in the playoffs last season and his numbers are beginning to fall back to earth. He has reached a point where his contract is getting tough to swallow given his level of production.
Zach Randolph, Memphis Grizzlies:
- The Good: One year remaining on his contract.
- The Bad: While not as egregious as some, Randolph is still the 14th highest paid player on the list, but yet his career PPG and PER rating has him solidly as the 18th best player on this list. Factor in his 8 playoff games and 1 All-Star appearance and you would appear to have a solid role player, who unfortunately is receiving superstar money.
- The Ugly: His off court issues may again affect his or the team’s play.
A couple of players whose contracts are on the verge of becoming toxic:
Kevin Garnett, Boston Celtics:
- The Good: Garnett has made 12 All-Star appearances during his 15 years in the league. He is still a vital cog on the Celtics as they make another run at a NBA Championship and is still capable of generating double-doubles and playing solid defense.
- The Bad: He has played in more regular season games than anyone on this list and while has been relatively healthy, age catches up with everyone. Garnett’s numbers have begun to decline over the last couple of seasons but he is still the 5th highest player in the league and has two years remaining on his contract.
- The Ugly: $18.8 million per tied up in a 15 year vet.
Yao Ming, Houston Rockets:
- The Good: When healthy Yao is probably the most difficult matchup in the post. His size and skills are unmatched in the league. Impressively at Center, Yao is the 7th most efficient player on the list with a career PER rating of 23.04.
- The Bad: Unfortunately Yao’s talents, in part due to injury, have not translated into post-season success.
- The Ugly: Yao missed all of last season and over his 8 year career is averaging 21.9 games missed per season. What isn’t known is if Yao will regain his form following his most recent injury. $17.6 million is a lot of money to be tied up in a talented, yet injury prone Center who did not help the team win in the post-season.
A few surprises:
- All things considered, the data seems to indicate that Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh and LeBron James are solid investments for the Miami Heat. Each player is currently producing well above their current salary rank on this list of the 21 highest paid players.
- At effectively the 20th highest paid player (out of 21) Dwight Howard is more than earning his money. Particularly when you consider that he has only missed THREE (3) games over the first six years of his career. Howard also has the 10th highest career PER rating (21.80) of all of the players on this list.
While Gilbert’s contract does not provide the kind of flexibility that many would like to have – particularly those who would like nothing better to dump in now. The biggest issue is not the money – as the team was not going to go on a spending spree – but it is the fact that he has missed a significant amount of time over the last three seasons. And as a result, we do not know what to expect from him moving forward. It is interesting, however, to see that Gilbert does not have the market cornered on bad contracts, as some would have us believe. That dubious honor he shares with the likes of Rashard Lewis, Michael Redd, Andrei Kirilenko, Vince Carter and Zach Randolph. Plus there are some long time stars (Kevin Garnett and Yao Ming) that are beginning to creep into that territory due to age and/or health concerns.
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solid work CJ
always interesting stuff. Redd and Kirilenko have to be the worst just b/c they blossomed just at the right time to get the contracts and then the walls came down. Arenas at least played at an elite level over a few seasons. Just hope he’s got some game left.
Almost all of these deals are expiring
Garnett’s only got 2 years left.
Gil has 4 and a lot of question marks
True, except Lewis.
Boy did he get paid in Seattle and has not lived up to that contract ever since.
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I understand his value to Orlando, but yeah, Channing Frye could do the same things
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by pantslessyoda1 on Aug 6, 2010 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
He has value to the Magic, but not enough to justify him at $19.5 million per year. However, when they traded for him they thought he would be their star player (pre-Dwight). It just blows my mind that Seattle ever gave him that contract as Ray Allen was the star of that team.
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Dwight was already there
Wasn’t he? Lewis was supposed to bring them into contention as a 2nd option.
You are right...
I was wrong. Dwight was there. Rashard was added to the team in 2007. Thanks for catching that steadyhand.
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So they gave him the max contract in a S&T. Likely made some sense at the time… now, not so much.
He is the highest paid player on the team, but yet he is fourth in order of importance behind Dwight Howard, Jameer Nelson and Vince Carter. Ok, maybe he is tied with VC.
I am convinced that NBA contracts need to be a little more like the NFL. Less guaranteed money and the ability to restructure deals.
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by CJ Hempfield on Aug 6, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
nice work, but?
doesn’t Brand get a mention in here?
by sweet_as on Aug 6, 2010 2:32 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
and then some
also, where’s Turkoglu? I actually think Zack randolph earned his bread last year. He played out of his mind all year!!!
by qthaballa on Aug 6, 2010 2:43 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Great points qthaballa =)
Zach was an absolute monster last season.
How does anyone say that an all star has a toxic contract?
RE: Turkoglu – The focus of this list was the top 21 contracts in the NBA according to the sources listed above. Turkoglu was not in the top 21.
RE: Randolph – He did not just sign that contract last year, so while he played well last season, he had a few more years in which he did not earn “his bread.” The focus on the post was to look at their career numbers and not just a single season.
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i see your point
but once you start producing at that level consistantly, doesn’t the contract cease to be toxic?
by qthaballa on Aug 6, 2010 5:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Brand
You are correct. That was an oversight on my part as I locked in on those making $17M or more.
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No one will ever have the worst contract
while Vince Carter is in the league. That guy is a lesson in why intangibles matter. Gimme Darko at 20 Mil over VC at basically anything over the vet minimum any day. Rashard Lewis is criminally overpaid but at least he has the potential to put up game-changing numbers. I am not on the anti-Arenas bandwagon, I think he should be set up as an above-average two guard who could make the Wall-led Wiz a contender. Ruling him out is like the Eagles ruining a still-good Mike Vick’s career.
So far I have not found the science
Good summary...
and it gets to the heart of what the owners want to prevent in the next round of collective bargaining.
Let’s hope that the NBA can dramatically reduce the length of guaranteed contracts and potentially include the ability to restructure contracts. Some of these players their teams would like to keep at a more reasonable price for their current performance level.
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i appreciate all the time, effort and hard work that goes into a post like this. and it is a great idea but poorly executed!
gilbert arenas has been paid what- $40 million to $60mm and started 8 games in 07, 2 games in 08 and 32 games last year. still, only the current contract matters since that is what you are evaluating- not what they did during their entire career. and he has four years remaining.
(42-4) gilbert arenas started 8, 2, and 32 games last three years- four years remaining
(232-2) rashard lewis started 81, 79, 72- two years
(115-1) michael redd- 71, 32, 12- one year
(117-1) andrei kirilenko- 72, 10, 35 one year 72, 80, 74
(226-2) vince cartertwo years 56, 34, 81-one year
(171-1) zach randolph
(197-2) kevin garnett- 71, 57, 69- two years
(132-1) yao ming- 55, 77, 0- one year
no one you listed has come close to missing as many games. gilbert has missed almost three times more than anyone on the list and five plus times the leaders. he has missed the most games over the past two years, which includes his big year last year! and he gets lapped badly when you look at the past three years! plus, he has four years remaining; no one else has more than two.
if anything, this cements my perception that this guy is untradeable for any value!
by les boulez bomber on Aug 6, 2010 8:10 AM EDT reply actions
Actually, the analysis was pretty well executed. Your criticism about the time Arenas has missed simply repeats one of the final points of the post: "The biggest issue is not the money – as the team was not going to go on a spending spree – but it is the fact that he has missed a significant amount of time over the last three seasons. "
Barring Arenas’ suspension last season, he would’ve (in all likelihood) been on the court – and he’s got several more years of productivity left. In fact, he’s got more time left in his career than maybe 80% of the people on that list. Measuring a player by the time they’ve missed isn’t the best assessment of their present value to a team.
but arenas was suspended. he did not play and was paid a big check. if you dont play, you cant perform, which by definition makes it a horrible contract. it is the worse contract in the league because of the duration remaining. for every other player on that list, a team can trade for him at the deadline next year and would have a tradeable asset within a year (BOYD trade offering salary cap relief for prospects, players, or picks). If they trade for gilbert, they better want him because he is not guaranteed to be a tradeable asset for another three years! Cap relief is the only thing that is guaranteed when there is guaranteed contract risk- player performance is not!
by les boulez bomber on Aug 6, 2010 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Suspension with pay?
but arenas was suspended. he did not play and was paid a big check.
Did Gilbert get paid for the games he missed due to the suspension? I thought he forfeited that part of his salary. So, at least as far as dollars are concerned, losing Gilbert to suspension was much better than losing him to injury.
Yeah, the time remaining on his contract is a double-edged sword. Today we say it’s too long, because it lowers his trade value in the short term. But next summer, will we be saying the same thing? Gil is a phenomenal player, something the Wizards haven’t seen very often. When they signed that contract, most of the fans were on board with it. I remember lots of talk of how cool it was that Gil had taken less than the absolute maximum. Our hindsight is 20-20. Our foresight is not so great, and the time a player has missed isn’t a great predictor of the future.
by satchmore on Aug 6, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Satchmore picked up what I was saying, particularly about the time that Gilbert missed. In addition I also pointed out that if you compare based on games missed during injury, Michael Redd has missed more time than Gilbert. However, I do aknowledge that time missed, regardless of the reason is time missed.
I would also point out that Lewis has three years remaining on his deal that is paying him more than Arenas. And while he has played for the Magic, he is at best their second or at worst their third or fourth option. That is a tremendous amount of money to pay for a guy who is not the go-to player on the team.
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gotcha…and i did not intend to minimize your efforts if it came across like that. lewis definitely has a bad contract too. if you believe a team would only make a trade if it receives a benefit, then the most important factor is the length of time that contract is guaranteed. that determines your investment timeframe and when you can make another. obviously, it is not good if they are not contributing when you are paying him. but when you can stop paying him if he is not working out and trade his dead contract for players, prospects, or picks matters most. it is why i still think he has the worse contract compared to the others you list.
however, i agree, GA is in a better position than some of the others to contribute to the team and his play might even approach parity for the money spent for him. so my point really isolates the contract versus the player. i thought that was the focus of the thread. he has not performed. he may in the future, we hope but dont know. but the contract itslf is the most toxic of the highest payed players because it’s duration is so much longer than everyone except lewis, and it still has a year on him. i think we are still at the point where we’d have to give him away at this point. or said differently, relatively speaking we would still receive less for GA in terms of assets than any other player on the list (relative to their skill and potential performance)
by les boulez bomber on Aug 6, 2010 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Last season Gil was averaging 22 and 7 before he got suspended. And that was with having missed all of the previously mentioned time. He was AVERAGING 22 and 7 and WAS RUSTY.
Folks, if Gil is healthy he is a top talent in the league. There is no reason for him not to be on this team, including some folks’ hurt feelings. He can create his own shot from anywhere on the floor at any time. And no one has ever questioned his work ethic. The man always works to improve his game. Hopefully last season has finally matured him. I have no worries about his game.
Gil and Wall in the back court is dynamic. Either of them can get to the hole and draw fouls; in Gil’s case he can spot up and shoot from distance and a good percentage too. Both can play the transition game which is great when you have McGee, Howard and Blatche.
dont know why there are crossed out comments!
by les boulez bomber on Aug 6, 2010 8:10 AM EDT reply actions
If you surround something with hyphens it does it automatically
If you look at the preview you’ll see it before you post.
A key part of this discussion is years left
The reason’s Gil has the worst contract in the league (although that honor may now belong to Joe Johnson), is that he has 4 years left on the deal – note that everyone else on the list has 1-2 years left.
I appreciate the research, but this is totally missing a couple factors (years remaining, and does not just have to include highest paid guys in the league). Check out Sports Guy’s list of worst contracts last year in this link:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100208/two
In the list you give, Gil is far and away the most toxic. Kirilenko has been an awful one, but is about to end, so Gil has the title, no questions. Even on the Simmons list, it’s not even that close.
by Jon Kelman on Aug 6, 2010 8:18 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree that if we look at length of time remaining that Gil is the winner (or loser) depending on your perspective. I would point out that Rashard Lewis’ deal runs for three more years.
What I attempted to do, and feel free to argue against it, is to try and weigh that person’s performance over their career against the size of their contract. I also wanted to consider how much that player still has to offer at a level that would justify their status as one of the highest paid players in the league. Players like Lewis and Kirilenko fail at this test. Gilbert has the “potential” to perform at that level for four more years.
I also agree that Joe Johnson will likely have this title in a season or two.
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i gotcha…and i think you did a great job at identifying who is overpaid. i dont think gilbert is the most overpaid going forward (it turned out in hindsight he has been these past three years simply because he played in so few games compared to the others. he doesnt fit into a neat box because of the suspension when he could have played, that is for sure!).
and i think the counter arguments are focused elsewhere!
hence, i find myself agreeing with both sides. GA is not the most overpaid, but he does have the worse contract- lol
by les boulez bomber on Aug 6, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Same thoughts here
This seems to be more of an evaluation of who is getting paid more than is justified by their past play (or lack thereof). To me, AK-47 wins on that list because he hasn’t done anything to justify the huge dollars he got since he was signed. Brand could be right there with him though.
If you wanted to focus on the contracts, the 4 years on Gil’s contract is really the most significant factor. There’s not a single player in the league that you could trade him for straight up right now, so I think we probably have to accept that he has the most toxic contract. That could easily change as soon as November though — fingers crossed!
that's the thing simmons discounts
the idea that gil could return to form
by DarrellWalkerFan on Aug 6, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
It's only toxic if Gil doesn't perfrom
If he is healthy it’s money well spent because he has shown he is a difference maker.
Off-court antics
Felony convictions might also diminish a player’s value. Pooping in strange places probably doesn’t help either.
On the other hand, goodwill of the sort Antwan promoted for the team is probably worth a few million a year to a professional sports organization.
Would a GM take Gilbert’s contract in exchange for any of those other toxic contracts on your list? For the most part, the answer is no.
LOL.
Not unless they are desperate enough and I don’t think that there are many that are right now. I’ve long believed that Gilbert only gets traded once he proves that he is healthy, plays at an all-star caliber level and does so without “distraction.” If he does these things, then maybe a team is interested during next off-season. But for all of those reasons, a GM doesn’t take a chance on him until he has a chance to prove what he is still capable of doing on the floor.
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I agree on that point CJ. But if Gil proves all of those things why should they trade him? He will be one of the better players in the league.
I’ve never been in the trade Gilbert camp. And if those things occur, then there is definitely no reason to trade him.
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Neither am I
I’m now in the lets get him suspended fur the next 3 seasons. Maybe someone can plant loaded guns in his locker and discover. You know, as a practical joke on Arenas. Halfway through this season Arenas will drive Saunders to be the guy who plants those guns.
Hemp, I know you want Gil around
I was just referring to folks who seem to want to get rid of him even if does not make Basketball sense.
Basketball sense?
Isn’t Arenas the same player who whined to Jorden that if didn’t have to play defense he could have scored 50? Typical Arenas. Always putting the rest of the team ahead of his ego. I think deactivating for the season for the sake of the rest of the players makes sense.
And here comes the irrational talk. Basketball sense is keeping a dynamic scorer who can get to the rim and finish, can shoot from distance with a good percentage, can create his own shot. It’s the NBA. Great defenders are few and far between. Good offense usually beats good defense. Remember Gil hit 60 on Kobe “All Defensive Team” Bryant? Yeah, Gil has been a knucklehead, but he’s a knucklehead who works hard on his game and can play it better than 95% of people in the world. Hello???
i dont want him around because it does make basketball sense. let’s say he is a legitimate top 10 player. the wizzards do not have the supporting cast to do him justice. he is off on his own in that this team is being constructed to be competitive 4 or more years from now. by competitive, i mean championship competitive. sure gilbert can help make us playoff competitive today. but who cares? if anything, his making our team better and being a 33 year old scorer who does not play defense when we will need him makes him expendable today. the best thing for him, a good player in his prime, is to be competing for a championship team, not anchoring a slow rebuild whose franchise player is 19. and the best thing for the wizzards is to position the team to be competing deep in the playoffs four years from now, not competing for the last playoff seeds with no chance to win.
by les boulez bomber on Aug 6, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't you think it will help Wall develop his game by having
one of the best scorers in the league playing along side him? Everyone knows Gil can light it up from deep, thus opening the lanes for Wall to drive and dish. I see no downside to having a great scorer compliment an up-and-coming great point guard. If Gil and Hinrich help us win some more games, possibly sneaking into the 8 seed, don’t you think it would speed up Wall’s development, playing with a positive and winning attitude? We have some great young pieces for the future in Wall, Blatche, McGee, Booker, Seraphin, etc, but regardless of age, Gil, Hinrich, and Howard will help more than hurt the development of our rebuilding process.
I think you both have good points
les boulez bomber and ToughHibachi….
it’s true that the window for this team is probably 3-4 years from now…. and that Gilbert, at 28, is in his prime now. He would probably be better off starting at PG for the Dallas Mavericks or the Orlando Magic; where he could help a team contend.
On the other hand, the Wizards NEED scoring. They need someone that can take over, and create with 5 seconds left on the shot clock. The more good players you put around John Wall, the faster he will develop. Would you rather see John Wall drive and kick to a wide open Arenas / Hinrich, or to a wide open rookie?
The one down side I see to keeping Arenas (and signing Hinrich and Howard) is that the Wizards “possibly sneaking into the 8 seed” (as ToughHibachi said)… thereby diminishing their draft chances. Making the playoffs shouldn’t be the goal here – we’ve already seen what happens when you build a team to be a perennial playoff team. They need to build this team to be a perennial Championship contender. That means continually choosing well in the draft, and getting high draft picks.
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Vince Carter's contract is only guaranteed for $2 Million in 2012.
So, essentially, it is an expiring contract this year.
by John Park Williams on Aug 6, 2010 10:56 AM EDT reply actions
I think you have to define your terms more clearly. "Toxic" vs. "overpaid"
Is a contract “toxic” because the player can’t be traded? Then you should ignore the past and focus on the player’s future. How valuable will that player be and how close to “earning” their money will he come?
Is a contract “toxic” because the player didn’t earn what he’s been paid in the past? That to me isn’t really “toxic”, just a bad contract. (see Eddie Curry). If Randolph continues to play as he did last year then I don’t think he belongs on the list.
A few other thoughts:
• I don’t have a problem with Lewis’ contract. He helps make that team click. I don’t think he’s weighing them down. If the team sucked then I’d say it’s a bad contract, but as long as the team is winning then I think it’s ok.
• I don’t think Arenas is top 10, even if he comes back at full strength and ability. I put him more around 15. However if he does come back at that level then I don’t have a problem with the contract and neither will many other teams in the league.
• Yao’s contract may not be an issue if he retires.
• I think you need to consider other players that aren’t on the list (because maybe they aren’t top 21?).
Thanks for the good post and for starting off a good discussion.
"focused he is a top 10 talent in the NBA"
i think that’s an overstatement.
he’s never been a real contender for team usa. oh wait, that’s not a good measuring stick.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Aug 6, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Hahaha.
Statistically speaking when he is focused he has performed (past tense) at a very high level that places him within the top 10. Now, a different argument would be is he truly a top 10 talent in this league? A player who can help carry a team into the playoffs and win a championship by himself? (Well there seems to be less of those players in today’s NBA as LBJ, DWade and Bosh realized they could not do it.)
My comment was based specifically on where Gilbert’s career PPG average compared to the other 20 players on this list. He had the 7th highest career scoring average of the players on this list.
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by CJ Hempfield on Aug 6, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
My comment was based specifically on where Gilbert’s career PPG average compared to the other 20 players on this list. He had the 7th highest career scoring average of the players on this list.
Again, I think you are fudging the definition of your terms. If he is one of the top scoring players then you should say that. If he is truly a top 10 player then you should be able to back it up and not have to retract your statement.
Sorry, don’t mean to sound critical, but it helps us all have an intelligent discussion if we are clear on our statements.
by MR on Aug 6, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Criticism is fine and is to be expected
I don’t believe that I changed or retracted my statement. If anything I was hoping to clarify. For example, early in the post I specifically said that this comparison was among only these 21 players, not all of the players in the NBA:
This post focuses on the 21 highest paid players in the NBA according to data pulled from Hoopshype, Basketball-Reference.com, Hoopsworld, DraftExpress and CBS Sports.com. Please note that in many cases the players rank is based only on these 21 players and not necessarily in relation to the full list of NBA players.
Later in the post, I talked about his career performance relative to the 21 players on this list:
The Good: Gilbert is a 9 year vet, but his body should be rested coming off of 2 injury shortened and 1 suspension shortened seasons. Gilbert, who is currently the 10th highest paid player on this list, has the 7th highest career PPG average of the 21 players. He also has a respectable career PER rating of 20.60. When Gilbert is healthy and focused he is a top 10 talent in the NBA and is still young enough to produce over the remaining years of his contract.
So in my recent comments, I was pointing out that his 10 ten status was based on where his career PPG average which I cited in the post.
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by CJ Hempfield on Aug 6, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok, that's fine. I don't want to get caught up in a discussion of semantics.
I’d like to add that I think if Arenas doesn’t come back with a real and actual devotion to defense then he is useless to our team.
by MR on Aug 6, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Useless................except you STILL need to score the basketball in this league...
And very few can score the basketball like Arenas – when he’s right.
Kobe, D-Wade, Durant, LeBron, Bosh, Stoudemire, Granger, Nowitzki, Monta Ellis
That’s the ENTIRE list of players that averaged 22 points or better last year….
And don’t come back with that old cliche – “yeah , but he gives up more than he scores” – because it’s simply NOT TRUE. Look it up – look at the game box scores… Arenas consistently out-scored the other team’s point guard …… Most games, by a LOT….
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he cant be top ten in talent until he plays defense
by les boulez bomber on Aug 6, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
LeBron is not a great defender....
He’s actually a very poor positional defender. He reaches a lot – but never gets called for it; so he gets a ton of steals… and therefore a lot of ESPN love (Announcer saying: “wow, GREAT defense by LeBron”) …. as he allowed his man to blow past him, rakes his arm and strips the ball – resulting in a rim rattling dunk by LeBron on the other end, after the “steal”……..
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I never thought LeBron was a good defender
It seems as though the media made him out to be one. He gets some highlight steals and blocks, but he’s not that great at checking his man. After the media told us that he was such a great defender. All the sudden he gets votes for All NBA Defensive team?
If he doesn’t get called for it then so what? He made the play. That’s all that counts in the end. Do they make the play. He’s a good defender or at least good enough. Lock down defenders are almost non-existent in the NBA because the best scorers will always find a way to score no matter how good the defense. Which brings me back to my point: If Gilbert is right his points and the impact of those points are worth his contract.
Because he doesn't get called for traveling
means he doesn’t do it?
Because he doesn’t foul out every game, swiping at the ball – that makes him a good defender? No…. LeBron is NOT a good defender… and most nights, he’s exposed. It’s only because of media hype that he gets noticed at all…
Kobe – yeah. He’s a good defender.
Wade? – yeah – he’s good.
Tim Duncan – great.
Joe Johnson – good.
Dwight Howard – great.
Garnett – very good
Most of the other big time scorers in the League are average to poor defenders (Bosh, Durant, Carmello Anthony, Dirk, Stoudemire, Boozer, David Lee, Vince Carter, Steve Nash, etc…) – - – Yet, Arenas is absolutely vilified for being a poor defender… while guys like Durant, Carmello and Boozer get a pass?
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Durant, Melo, Boozer, David Lee, bosh, and even Amare
at least CONTRIBUTE a little bit on the defensive end. All of them are good rebounders. Melo is a good defender if he applies himself.
Gil is vilified because many PG’s in this league are very good playmakers…once they get past their man and into the paint it causes problems for the rest of the defense…
Also….how many games has Gilbert PLAYED? Im tired of him not being on the court above all else….whether it is injury or suspension.
Hemp I know you want to keep Gil
I was referring to folks who seem to want to get rid of him even if does not make basketball sense.
No worries, Phaze1.
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by CJ Hempfield on Aug 9, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Tim Duncan & Dwight Howard for sure
CP3, Bosh, Durant….
Those are probably the top 8, and I don’t know of any of them being poor defenders.
I’d have a hard time picking the next 2. Probably Nash and Nowitski, who aren’t very good defenders.
kobe wade lebron…and…pierce, garnett, duncan, howard i know and i think
durant paul and williams are also good defenders
u dont win championships if u cant play defense. best two teams these past three years were the two best defenses (roughly) and orlando is right in that mix. you might find an exception here and there but the finals are typically loaded with good defensive teams that can also score. the also rans are missing one or the other.
by les boulez bomber on Aug 6, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
so why is it
that tons of posters here want Carmelo Anthony? He’s one of the worst defenders in the league….
Oh… and Durant is not that good a defender… At least I wouldn’t classify him as “good” – perhaps he will be one day…but not right now.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
that is a great question! i think people want carmelo because he is the best 3 potentially available to us and it is our clearly our weakest position. and there are no crazy good young centers that are available that get us excited. we kinda have hope filled at the other three positions!
by les boulez bomber on Aug 6, 2010 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions
There are some terrific SF's available in next year's draft...
and the League is loaded with good Small Forwards… Along with SG, it’s probably the easiest position to fill…..
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
That is the truth. Generally, you can always find a serviceable SG or SF. A completely different story with the other three positions.
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by CJ Hempfield on Aug 9, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Melo is a local product
He actually PLAYS GAMES. He isnt INJURED all the time…And Melo isnt that bad of a defender if he applies himself. Plus he can rebound very well from the 3 spot.
Overall Melo is just more likable. At least in my mind.
Toxic
Fair points. I used Toxic to play off of how others described Gilbert and his contract. To your point, I was highlighting people who have been overpaid (or may be very shortly).
I agree if you are producing on the floor, then many of the questions about your contract aren’t an issue.
Top 21? – I cut off the list at approximately $15.9 million per year which ended up with the top 21 highest paid players. It was nothing more significant than that.
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by CJ Hempfield on Aug 6, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Interestingly, I think Lewis’ contract is one of the most toxic in the league even though I don’t think it’s a terrible contract for them, mostly because I think he brings more to Orl than he would to another team.
by MR on Aug 6, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Very true.
His contract is not terrible to the Magic as they seem to be content having him as part of the team. If the rumors are true they appear to be willing to get rid of VC and not Lewis. Let’s face it there aren’t very many 6’10" SFs in the league who can actually play the position and create match up problems. That is just a ton of money to pay for a guy who is not the Alpha dog on your team. But, when you are comfortable with someone’s performance and you are willing to spend the money… that in itself would indicate that the Magic don’t find his contract to be “toxic.” Because the team is willing to spend, it has not prevented them from bringing players in as they need them.
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by CJ Hempfield on Aug 6, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
Although by my own definition of “toxic” it may be one of the most “toxic” in the league because I don’t think anyone would trade for him. However if you gave Orlando the chance to wipe it off the books and lose him I don’t think they would. Or would they? What do you think?
by MR on Aug 6, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I think that if they were able they would dump VC, but they would keep Lewis and just restructure his contract.
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by CJ Hempfield on Aug 6, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
But what if it was cut Lewis and wipe the contract or keep him as-is?
My feeling is they’d keep him.
Same with Yao, Garnett, Randolph.
Guys who I think the team would cut if given the same option would be AK, Brand, Redd, VC, Hamilton.
Question marks are Arenas, Okafor, Gordon.
by MR on Aug 6, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
If it were possible to cut these players and wipe their contracts off the books, I agree with your list. You could argue that many of these players teams have added similarly skilled players at significantly reduced rates, possibly in preparation for their departure???
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by CJ Hempfield on Aug 6, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Contract Toxicity should take into consideration anticipated future production
There’s not a single player in the league that you could trade him for straight up right now,
And that’s probably a GOOD thing….
If Gil gets back to even 80% of what he was in 2004-05 through 2006-07 when he was putting up 28 points, 6 assists and 4.5 boards a game….. then his contract doesn’t look nearly as bad as ……say……..Kevin Garnett’s contract… As a matter of fact, his contract would probably look better than most on CJ’s list.
If Gil can get back to scoring 22-24 points a game, with 3-4 assists (I’m assuming Wall will take over most of the play making duties), and 3-4 rebounds… he once again becomes a top player in the league at Shooting Guard…. That is NOT a big stretch as an assumption – especially since we’ve already seen him do it last year (22 ppg, 7 apg, 4.1 rpg)… although, in a limited number of games (32).
Those numbers would certainly stack up favorably to Joe Johnson’s 2010 All-Star numbers at SG (21 ppg, 4.9 apg, 4.6 rpg) , and Ray Allen’s 2009 All-Star numbers (18.2 ppg, 2.8 apg, 3.5 rpg).. …. Not as good as Dwayne Wade’s 2010 All-Star numbers (26.6 ppg, 6.5 apg, 4.8 rpg), but certainly enough to garner consideration for an All-Star nod….
Add in the fact that although Arenas is 28, because he has not played the last 3 years his legs should have the mileage of a 25 or 26 year old player ….. He should be able to produce at that level for several years.
Garnett will almost certainly not live up to his contract for the next 2 years… nor will Kirilenko, Carter, Rashard Lewis, Joe Johnson,…etc…
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Great Write up but ....
Kirilenko made the All-Star team in 2004. I definitely remember the moment because he was only averaging 14 ppg and I was scratching my head wondering what was so great about him.
by ThePGPhenomenon on Aug 6, 2010 10:55 PM EDT reply actions
Good catch.
According to Basketball-Reference.com, when I was compiling this data he didn’t. But based on your comment, I checked his bio on NBA.com and you are correct.
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by CJ Hempfield on Aug 9, 2010 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Gilbert is the definition of toxic
1. Longest contract: 4 years
2. Most money owed 80M
3. Games missed because of injury: over 200
4. Games missed because of felony: over 50
Couple of other points:
There is no upside to the time he missed. CJ tries to say he’s somehow more healthy because he hasn’t taken the pounding. But he hasn’t taken the pounding in over 200 games because he physically could not perform. Don’t try to spin an injury into a healthy side effect. He still has micro-fracture surgery. He still had meniscus surgery.
The contract becomes even more toxic after a gun felony.
When Gilbert is healthy and focused he is a top 10 talent in the NBA
This is accurate as of the 06-07 season. Even the biggest Gilbert fans need to live in the present not the past.
In the recent present...
at least the most recent present we can look at (last season) – he averaged 22.6 points, 7.2 assists and 4.2 rebounds.
Better than 2010 All-Star Derrick Rose’s 20.8, 6.0, 3.8 numbers
Arguably better than 2010 All-Star Rajon Rondo’s 13.7, 9.8, 4.4 numbers
Similar to 2010 All-Star Joe Johnson’s 21.3, 4.9, 4.6 numbers
Admittedly, Arenas’ numbers were the result of a small sample size (32 games) – but he was getting better as the season progressed. In the 17 games before he was suspended, he averaged 24.7 points, 8.1 assists and 5.1 rebounds; while retaining shooting percentages similar to his career average. Those are All-Star caliber numbers… and the MOST RECENT numbers , and the most recent memories we have to work with…. Including memories of Arenas, especially towards the end, regaining his old explosiveness.
So I’d say to those who keep bringing up Arenas’ injuries, which are in the PAST – you should instead look at his numbers in the present…. and those are very, very good.
And look to the future – which, if last year was any indication at all, should be a very, very good year for Arenas.
I’ll say this again…. I’d rather have Arenas the player; with his 4-years and $80 Million left – than Elton Brand the player, and his 3-years, $60 Million left…. or Emeka Okafor and his 4-years, $53 Million left….. or Joe Johnson and his 6-year, $123 Million left… or even Kevin Garnett and his 2-years, $40 Million left….
Of all those players, I think Arenas has the best chance of playing up to the value of his remaining contract; or at least playing close to it….
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
To be fair
Joe Johnson and Derek Rose are not top 10 players, and I think overall they were both better than Arenas last year. Rondo’s overall impact on the court was far superior to Arenas’ last year (in my opinion), as he was much better defensively, and about equal offensively. He isn’t a top 10 player either (though he’s getting close).
Counting stats, Rook? I call shenanigans. Let’s look at PER, so we can account for efficiency better (still not really accounting for defense). Still good, but lower than guys like Nazr, Mohammed, Nene, and Marc Gasol. That’s a far cry from top 10 material. I think it would be fair to guess that he’ll give us something equivalent to what Jamal Crawford gave Atlanta this past year (which was very good) and for a few more minutes per game. Any more than that I would call hoping for the best.
My most recent memory of Gil
Is him in a suit, not him playing basketball. I want to see him do well….but Im tired of him not being able to stay on the hardwood.
273…That’s a lot of games, Rook.
@-steadyhand-I like the JCrawford reference. I think he can bring a little more scoring than Jamal with JWall at the helm. And i have to agree with you, I think overall Joe J, DRose, and Rondo are all better than Arenas overall.
I’ll say this again…. I’d rather have Arenas the player; with his 4-years and $80 Million left – than Elton Brand the player, and his 3-years, $60 Million left…. or Emeka Okafor and his 4-years, $53 Million left….. or Joe Johnson and his 6-year, $123 Million left… or even Kevin Garnett and his 2-years, $40 Million left….
good call Rook…Probably right about that…Unless Joe Johnson stays healthy. Or if KG’s massive expiring can be flipped for assests….but if Arenas has a special 4 years…I think we will all be happy.
In the end it’s about winning. If we build a contender with Gilbert, great. if we part ways, then it is what it is.

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