The Wizards should consider using a pressing second-unit lineup
by Mike Prada on Aug 3, 2010 12:47 PM EDT
in Team Analysis
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PrintI've been throwing this one around in my head a while, and therefore don't have a ton of stats or historical context to back it up. But it's August, the perfect time for these theoretical ideas.
Anyway, I've been thinking a lot about the makeup of the roster, especially since Summer League, when the Wizards played at a breathneck pace. When I do, the same thought comes back to my head every single time.
Why not roll out a pressing second unit for a few minutes every game?
There are obvious problems to this, the first of which is that pressing in the NBA rarely works. The ball-handlers are too good, for one. Not only are most point guards capable of dribbling through any sort of defensive pressure, but the NBA also features bigger players that can handle the ball themselves if the point guard can't. In college, if you force a bigger player to bring the ball up the floor, it can turn into a disaster. In the NBA, though, that's less often the case.
In addition, there's also the issue of the 24-second shot clock. In college, teams often break the press and then pull it out to run their half-court offense because they can. There's less of a risk that a team will beat your press and then score an easy layup. But in the NBA, there's less incentive to pull it out because you don't get very much time to get a better shot. Combine that fact with the fact that there are better ball-handlers in the NBA, and teams that press often just give up easy shot after easy shot.
That said, I think the Wizards might be different. There have been some teams historically that have used a press before. Two that come to mind off the top of my head are the Rick Pitino-era Knicks of the late 80s and the first three-peat Bulls teams of the early 90s. Flip Saunders also throws out a zone press from time to time that he used to use back in Minnesota, so the infrastructure is there.
More importantly, the personnel is there. The Wizards suddenly have athletes on their roster, as opposed to before when they had strong half-court offensive players. They have the personnel to make an NBA game a full-court game, at least for short stretches. In general, they also have personnel better suited to an up-tempo game than a half-court game. What better way to speed the tempo up than to whip out a full-court press for a short stretch?
With that in mind, here's the unit I'd like to see out there for this purpose.
PG: John Wall
This goes without saying. Wall is long, athletic and has great defensive instincts. He's also a demon in the open floor, and from Day 1, he'll ensure that the game doesn't get too chaotic when the Wizards do press. Few in the entire league have the potential to be as unstoppable in transition as Wall, so it only makes sense to have him out there when the tempo gets sped up.
SG: Nick Young
This was probably the toughest call for me, because Kirk Hinrich wouldn't be a bad choice here either. You also have to worry about Young's ability to concentrate and perform in a somewhat complicated full-court pressing scheme. But Young is also the most athletic player on the team, and last year, he started to realize that he can use those gifts to help him on the defensive end of the floor. While Hinrich is the superior half-court defender, Young has the advantage in terms of his ability to cover ground in the open floor, and his length will make it difficult for the point guard to see when he's trapped in the corner.
Also, Young's a pretty good finisher in transition.
SF: Al Thornton
Thornton's half-court defensive intelligence leaves a lot to be desired sometimes, but there's no denying that he has outstanding athletic gifts. In a pressing scenario, Thornton, like Young, is fully capable of trapping and then recovering to his man very quickly. He also has long arms that would be essential any time he was trapping the ballhandler. In general, playing Thornton on a pressing unit accentuates his strengths (athleticism, speed) while downplaying his weaknesses (defensive IQ).
PF: Trevor Booker
We've talked a lot about where "Grown Ass Man" will fit in next year, and have had trouble figuring it out. But if the Wizards do decide to go to a pressing unit, Booker suddenly has himself a well-defined role. In college, Booker was the lynchpin of Clemson's devastating full-court press. Sure, it was a team effort, but one of the major reasons it worked so well was because of Booker's ability to run all over the court.
Any coach will tell you that the power forward is the key to a successful press. That player has to have the ability to run and trap the ball-handler and then later recover to pick up their own man. If a key to a press is getting the ball out of the point guard's hands and into the hands of a lesser ball-handler, then the power forward carries a ton of significance. It does little good if the trap comes from a perimeter player, because that merely forces the ball into the hands of another perimeter player. If the trap comes from the power forward, however, that's significant, because the power forward is rarely used to handling the ball. That means your power forward has to be faster than the opponents' power forward to make it all work. He has to be able to force the ball out of the point guard's hands and then recover to his man as soon as possible. Considering Booker is arguably faster than even John Wall, the Wizards are in good shape.
Booker's played this role in college and played it well. Why not let him play that role in the pros?
C: JaVale McGee
McGee's the center because he's the only real shot-blocker on the roster. Whenever the press is broken, it helps to have a center who can erase shots at the rim. Those plays are not only demoralizing for your opponent, but they also lead to fast breaks coming back the other way. McGee may have a lot to learn about defensive positioning, but there's no denying he's the only player who can bring that affect to the Wizards.
So there you have it. I wouldn't use this lineup all the time, but for five minutes a game, I think it can be a real game-changer, altering the tempo of the game and bringing it closer to the Wizards' liking. Thoughts?
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I agree completely with this
I think we have less to lose than most teams by pressing, since our post defense is going to be so poor. Gil could work in a pressing scheme, too; he’s faster than 95% of the shooting guards in the league and he’s never had a problem with playing the passing lanes.
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Great Idea
Here is the Simmons-Gladwell article that goes into more technical detail of the how and why: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090513/part2
We may not see a full-court, high pressure, trapping style of press. I think that’s the kind of thing that could bite a team in the butt most nights. What I envision is a ball-denial, 3/4 court press with occasional controlled double teams to get the ball out of the PG hands. Its not meant to turn over the other team most possessions. The goal is to keep the opponent from getting into their offensive set until much deeper in the shot clock. the later it gets the less they can execute, the less we have to defend in the half court.
The Wizards will need a full bag of tricks to succeed in 2010-11...
one can debate the personnel for a pressing, trapping second unit, but the idea is I think a sound one.
I think our bench can be very strong defensively
I actually would sub Hinrich for Wall in your scenario because he’s such a stout defender. I would also consider switching Hilton for Javale. Hilton isn’t that great shot blocker, but I feel like McGee would collect 3 or 4 fouls just in this press package. If team’s break the press, having Armstrong just clobber the guy and eat a foul is just as effective.
But overall, I like how our second unit is a great complement to our starters who don’t believe in quality defense for the most part. Hinrich, Young, Thornton, Booker, Seraphin, and N’Diaye all have great defensive potential.
Walls athleticism itself will create fastbreaks in a press defense.
Not to mention, any press D/up-tempo offense, is going to lead to fastbreaks for the other team occasionaly. Walls speed and athleticism is going to disrupt and eliminate some of those easy bucket opportunities on defense, that Hinrich wouldn’t be able to be a factor in. And yeah there’s no question, I want Wall running the break over hinrich.
by returnofswagger on Aug 3, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I could also see JaVale picking up a lot of fouls
The press is bound to be beat at some point, probably often, especially with NBA guards orchestrating the attack. JaVale will be left alone in 2 on 1 situations at the rim and will be forced to foul often.
I know this is the wrong thread, but I need to vent
9 killed in Conn. workplace shooting, I just saw this story and started to wonder if the Brandy Foundation and others will comment on this story as they did when Gil brought guns into the locker room. I never liked the aspect that many bandwagon people just on board to crush Gil, but never say a word when an actually workplace shooting takes place.
I do like the idea of a pressing second unit. Will Flip go for it. I doubt it.
Brady Campaign
http://blog.bradycampaign.org/?p=2583
"Now, obviously individual production does not unilaterally equal better team production, but there's a high level of causation."
by Vanilla Gorilla on Aug 3, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I can admit
I can admit when I’m wrong. I didn’t believe they would comment.
They comment on every national story that involves guns
It was assured as ESPN reporting on Favre retirement news.
by BayAreaBullet on Aug 4, 2010 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Jheiser3 has the right idea...
Pressing in the NBA is a waste of time UNLESS it’s being done to slow the other team down. Pressing to create turnovers leads to easy layups very quickly because (as Prada points out) ballhandlers are too good. The real benefit of “positional” pressing designed to slow the progress of the ball coming up court is that it gets the opposing offense into their offense later in the shot clock, which prevents that offense from getting to all of its options.
haha I actually do something similar in NBA 2K10
Assuming everyone’s got a motor, it could work really well that way. You’d just have to have the most well-conditioned guys on the floor.
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by pantslessyoda1 on Aug 3, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I like the idea of Flip
tinkering with any possible defensive strategy that works. I’d be happy with the Wizards establishing an identity of an aggressive up tempo team. So any possible way to utilize the athletic advantages the Wiz have over teams…go for it.
There are scenarios
when all teams need to press— usually mid 4th-quarter when the starters are getting a breather and so can’t pick up fouls. Last year when the Wizards did this, the two players who were most effective were Ross and, yep, our old pal Singleton. McGee was a wash on the full-court press because he was usually out of position and got winded easily. But that’s a moot point anyway—Wall and McGee both count as starters this year.
I hate to bring up Singleton in nearly every discussion, but he really was an essential part of the Wizards’ defense late last season. Think of him as a “special-teams” player.
another challenge
I like the spirit of the thing, and am pro-pressing in general, but there is an additional big reason not to do it in the nba. A good press against advanced ball handlers requires very coordinated trapping and positioning. It takes a lot of practice. The only way for a second team to get practice reps would be against the first team. Selling an nba coach—and him selling his first-teamers—on expending energy and practice time on that is generally not a possibility.
by bwoodsxyz on Aug 3, 2010 1:52 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Who knows if it would work...
but it sure would be fun to watch!
Will be very interesting to see how Flip coaches the team this year. Will he open up the offense? Will he pass out iPods? I remember thinking that was a great idea, but the season went so horribly wrong, I wonder if the iPods seem to gimmicky to Flip in hindsight. I for the record, think he should bust them out again….
iPads this year, pre-loaded with virtual playbook and scouting videos.
wait, we;re the Wizards not the Mavericks. Sorry.
Singleton is through with posters in DC
He wants out of the relationship and he is never coming back. He is now living in Miami with a young model poster. While I think press defense is a complete waste of time in the NBA.There are some ballhandlers who are prone to turning the ball over so you can occasionally trap them into a turn over. Then again you wouldn’t want to do this when a player like Roy is on the floor because thats giving him too easy a look. The other problem with that lineup is how are the Wizards going to score? I think the idea is a little too gimmicky for a young team. Two rookies are on the floor. I think the Wiz should focuson being a solid, sound defensive team first. Otherwise you are really setting up shooters to take open shots. McGee won’t be able to stop that. I don’t care how long his arms are.So maybe this is something you can experiment with in the preseason.
Disastrous this year, but something to install anyway for the future
I was trying to explain Horace Grant’s value to the first three-peat Bulls to some folks who were underselling him. Certainly his role as the lynchpin of Chicago’s pressure was a part of his value. I believe Johnny Bach called him the key to being able to let the ‘dobermans’ (Jordan and Pippen) loose.
My problem with your suggested version of the press is some of the personnel. I don’t think there are necessarily better choices on the roster at the moment, I just don’t think they will necessarily make it work. Specifically Nick Young and McGee. While both have shown improvement on the defensive end, both still are prone to the kind of mental lapses that change an effective press into an easy scoring opportunity for the other team. If / when he comes back healthy, Josh Howard might make more sense out there than Nick. First, because it adds a veteran to a group of otherwise very young players. He’s as long or longer than Nick, and while he’s not as athletic anymore, his experience might make up some of the difference. Yi could also figure in the mix somewhere as a long, athletic piece.
All of that aside, I definitely think it’s worth putting in and taking a look at. Even if it doesn’t pay dividends this year, working with it consistently might pay dividends down the road, once all of he youngsters have more experience. It’s also a great tool to occasionally break out against older teams coming off of back-to-backs or long road trips. And beyond his defensive potential, John Wall does give the team much greater ability to turn that defense into instant offense.
Howard might be a good addition
And that’s a good point you raise.
But I really don’t see how Yi’s helpful. He won’t be able to recover to his 4 man like Booker, and he’s not a shot-blocker like McGee.
Yi
Honestly, not sure if Yi would factor in, I haven’t seen him play much. But my understanding is that he is athletic, i.e. can run better than most bigs, and is 7 feet with the requisite wingspan. Depending on his skill level with it, he’s at least another very long, athletic guy they could put out there to affect passing lanes.
I agree
McGee doesn’t have the stamina to press with the 2nd unit, even for just a short stretch. He probably doesn’t even have the stamina to play true starter minutes, so asking him to do this as well is definitely too much. Add that and all the usual problems with pressing in the NBA to Nick, Al and Javale periodically blowing their assignments, and I think this would turn into a layup drill for the other team. Fun idea though. Could be worth trying when the team is flat to get them going.
So
Put in N’Daiye….
Isn’t that his forte? Shot blocking?
Why risk your starting Center (JaVale) getting into foul trouble, when you have a perfectly good 7-foot shot blocker, with 6 available fouls, sitting on the bench.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Wall
I do see Wall pressuring the ballhandler in the backcourt to force a pass and then young trying to steal the pass and take in for an easy layup. I have seen coaches use this type of defense to shake a team out of shooting slump. But in the end its usually out of desperation and on a rare occasion it has worked if the other team isn’t shooting well and you can start running the ball. Simply to do it because you can is normally a bad idea. The press gets beat and somebody is going to standing alone behind the three point line and you hope it isn’t Bllups or Bryant or Pierce because that ball is most likely going in. I have seen that over and over again.
Now that you have me thinking
McGee is sort of useless in a press defense because everyone is shooting 3s. Maybe a perimeter defender like Howard would be better than McGee. If some gets a layup so what? Better 2 points than 3 points.
As a Clemson grad, I am used to watching a team press (every minute of every game). Granted, there are open threes given up b/c of the press, if you don’t have that big shot blocker under the rim you are going to get blown away.
That guy will stop soooo many baskets. Someone is always going to break free during every press and without that guy, you are giving up two points every possession.
And Mike, as much as I like hearing something Clemson does as ‘devastating’ I think you are giving us too much credit…unless you are talking about CJ Spiller!
Hah
I guess I meant “devastating” in that it won them some games they probably didn’t deserve to win based on their talent level.
open threes
In the NBA everyone shoots 3s. He wont go anywhere near the basket and they are always standing alone with all day to drill the shot. What do you do with that guy? Which is the problem with the press in the NBA. Pick your poison. Give up a two or give a up three. And for many NBA players a wide open three is like a layup. Maybe they will miss the layup or the jam.
Gentry 2 squad Game Plan
I was thinking about the Wiz using the Alvin gentry 2 squad gameplan. It worked well for the suns and given the nature of our team I think it would work for the wiz, even to do fast break spurts.
Team 1:
Wall
Arenas
Howard
Blatche
McGee
Team 2:
Hinrich
Young
Booker
Yi
Seraphin
I like that idea. It would create some instant excitement
It’s all about the player’s mindsets though. Booker and Seraphin seem like the type that could do that similar to the Dudley/Almundson type players in Phoenix. I don’t think Hinrich has been known to be a fast breaker, but he has it in him. Young needs to play with more heart, he could definitely be an energetic scorer/defender, but he seems to lose confidence quickly, thus leading to his lackadasical play. I would also play Yi as the stretch 4 or 5, model his game similar to how Channing Frye played last year.
It seems like this could be a deep team. It’s funny that we haven’t even mentioned Thornton, Armstrong, (possibly Cartier Martin), etc.
Kirk's not great bringing the ball up on a fastbreak
But he’s pretty decent at passing the ball ahead if there’s another ball handler to throw it to.
good but...
the only problem is who is going to score for that 2nd team? Phoenix didnt have scorers either but they had great shooters that worked in the context of that offense. Also it looks as if Thornton no loner has a spot in the rotation
by qthaballa on Aug 3, 2010 7:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
However, Howard might be out for the first few weeks
so by default, Thornton will play.
by ToughHibachi on Aug 3, 2010 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
If you’re going for pressure and creating transition opportunities on offense, then I might consider taking Al Thornton out of this group, moving Booker, T. to SF, and inserting Serpahin at PF. Size + speed all around. If things break down and they find themselves in half-court jump shooting mode, it could be a disaster on offense, but if they could force turnovers, it could be fun to watch.
The problem is you need a mobile PF to make this all work
And Seraphin ain’t that.
The whole idea is for your PF to be faster than their PF to make the trap work.
trevor booker then
pf is his natural position anyway. Is he really that much smaller than Millsap?
by qthaballa on Aug 3, 2010 9:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I can see how Booker would be faster
But why do you say Seraphin isn’t mobile? He looked pretty fast in those videos. And I’ve seen some scouts describe him as having good mobility, with surprising speed and explosiveness. Admittedly, Booker is better known as a defensive presence.. but don’t forget big Frenchy.
He's mobile for a big big man
He’s not mobile in terms of pressing, or at least the same way Booker is.
He might be a better 5 in this scenario
Though JaVale’s a shot blocker, and ostensibly, he would be a better defender in the paint when they drive to the hoop.
Why not Yi as the stretch big man
shooting 3s, creating mismatches. Not quite sure how quick Hilton is but he’s still young and was a pretty agile center in college.
Or Yi at the 4, Seraphin at the 5. If Phoenix can get away with Almundson and Frye as their bigs, this could work for short spurts.
by ToughHibachi on Aug 3, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Erm, no
The whole point is to have a speedy 4 man that can act as the double-teamer on the press and still sprint back to their man. This isn’t about offense. Yi Jianlian is not that guy.
I’m so confused. We literally have the perfect guy for this role, the fastest tester at the draft combine and a guy that did it in college, and we want to take him out of it?
At the same time....
…if you limit the press to more or less just one lineup, or keyed to a specific part-time player, doesn’t that tip your hand a bit?
Yi isn't really a 3 point shooter
not yet at least.
34% on less than 1 attempt per game (career avg).
by MR on Aug 4, 2010 7:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Good thought
But I would make it more general. That is, use subs to change the pace of the game.
In the past, EJ would stick with the Big 3 even when they came out flat.
I would have an up tempo second unit on offense — led by Arenas and Young coming off of the bench. Those guys could average could score 2 points a minute by themselves. Of course, D would suffer but it would create pressure on the opposition at key points in the game.
The first unit would be defensive oriented in this scenario.
Presses don't work in the NBA if the other team has a competent ball handler on the floor.
But as a second unit we bring in every time the other team puts a shaky backup pg in the game could force teams to play their best ball handlers extra minutes leaving them tired in the 4th. Intriguing idea.
The issue isn't...
A competent ball handler, it’s that NBA teams typically have 3-4 competent ball handlers on the floor. Plus a center who is generally competent to catch the ball and pass to an open teammate. Backups are competent ball handlers too. Pressing as an every-game strategy would just serve to set up fast-break opportunities for the opposing team.
by TheSecretWeapon on Aug 4, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
no they don't
Take Gil off the floor, insert Boykins or Foye. Who were the “competent ball handlers?” Not someone who could break a press on their own. One on one they may be fine but the point is to run them into bad spaces, corners, traps.
As I said above this doesn’t have to be a full court press. That leaves too much open space. A match up zone 3/4 court could take time off the clock, force some 8 second calls, or at worst speed up a team.
And the main detail in all of this is that we’re doing this to a second team PG, SG, SF, not starters. That, and these players rarely see this type of pressure in NBA games.
You don’t think Boykins could break a press at least as well as Arenas?
by MR on Aug 4, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
one on one, sure. but thats not a press.
He can handle the ball on his own. the point of the press is to get the ball out of his hands by: 1, ball denial and 2, a double team. He can’t bring it up and start the offense without the ball. The more time it takes to set the offense the fewer options they have and the more likely the possession ends in an isolation.
Earl Boykins versus the double team? or forcing the 2 to bring the ball up, both good for the defense.
I was speaking more to situations
like putting Eddie House on the floor. Or when Boston would try and run Tony Allen at the 2 for 5 minutes a game… etc. Lots of teams try and get away with a guy who isn’t much of a ball handler/PG for like 5-10 minutes. So when that happens I see it as a good idea. Most of the time an NBA team can easily beat a press. Plus like Heiser said the main benefit would be keeping the other team from starting their offensive sets early in the shot clock.
by BayAreaBullet on Aug 4, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
full versus zone
man to man full court press, I agree. throw a match-up 1-2-2 or 2-1-2 and I don’t see it as nearly that easy. As you said, how often do reserve 2’s and 3’s really have to handle the ball under pressure of any kind? Isn’t getting them into those situations a win in and of itself (as long as it isn’t ending in easy buckets)?
Oops
I meant Tony Allen at the 1 not the 2. I remember Boston doing that a couple times. Or the Lakers had some times where Shannon Brown was the nominal PG. If that forces a guy like Rondo back in the game earlier or forces Kobe or PP to expend more energy that’s not bad. Yes I realize that Allen is no longer a Celtic but those situations do happen where a coach tries to get by for 5 minutes a game with a shaky 2 playing the point.
by BayAreaBullet on Aug 4, 2010 5:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Arenas at PG
Am I the only one expecting to see Gilbert splitting his time between PG and SG? Someone has to play the point when Wall is sitting, and I like Gil better than Hinrich in that situation. Gil with the ball in his hands, defended by a second string PG? I like that a lot. Likewise, someone has to defend Kobe, Wade, JJohnson, etc., and I like Hinrich better than Gil in that situation, so we need to find a way to get Kirk some minutes against starting SGs. I see Gil starting at SG, but coming out early so he can be rested and ready to come back in with the second unit.
And going back to the topic at hand, I think Gilbert (and his knack for coming up with steals) could be very effective in a pressing attack.
team
NICK YOUNG WILL NOT BE COMING OFF THE BENCH;
straight talk
by Mae.jude@yahoo.com on Aug 4, 2010 1:13 PM EDT reply actions
Michael Adams, Manute Bol - anyone?
The Wizards used to trot out a full court press with their second unit when Manute was there for a couple of years in the mid-80’s… then Michael Adams left, but they got Mugsy Bogues… and the second unit would break out that full court trap…
It rarely worked, but when it did, it was spectacular.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
It rarely worked, but when it did, it was spectacular.
New Wizards motto?
by HIBACHI GOLD on Aug 4, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I have to agree...
…pressing against the Wizards last season probably would have been a worthwhile strategy. Of course, the Wizards were one of the league’s worst teams and had one of the league’s worst backcourts. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to formulate a strategy based on what might have worked against the Wizards last season. Let’s be honest — nearly any strategy would have worked against the Wizards last season.
As I’ve said before, pressing in the NBA isn’t a bad strategy if you have the right goals. Pressing for turnovers is a waste of time — ballhandlers are too skilled and experienced, and the coaching is too good. If the goal is to slow down the opposing offense, make them start their halfcourt set later in the shot clock, and (hopefully) with someone less comfortable initiating the set — it’s a worthwhile strategy.
by TheSecretWeapon on Aug 5, 2010 12:10 PM EDT reply actions
Experience playing the press
Will JaVale get any experience playing the press this summer while playing with Team USA?
Booker
Unfortunately, I erased my copies of the SL games, but one of the items that I mentally filed away was that Booker often took it upon himself to run a mini-press. Whenever his man inbounded the ball he would immediately pressure the PG. I can remember a few turnovers that resulted from these plays, particularly as one of the Wizards guards came to help out.
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Frontcourt trap
But use it only occasionally?
"I say he does have to shoot me now! So shoot me now!" --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Aug 6, 2010 11:55 AM EDT reply actions
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