Wizards acquire Wall, Hinrich, Seraphin, Booker and Ndiaye
by Jake Whitacre on Jun 25, 2010 8:50 AM EDT
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The selection of John Wall by itself would have been enough to generate enough reaction to fill out a post and then some. Adding in two trades to net three more picks and a veteran? Yep, that will spill some digital ink.
After the jump, you can comb through some of the best of what the Internet had to offer from last night's action.
On drafting John Wall
Wizards Call for Wall, and DC Finally Celebrates - David Steele, NBA FanHouse
The balloons cascaded from the ceiling and the confetti shot into the air at precisely 7:37 p.m. ET Thursday night, the moment commissioner David Stern appeared on the projection screens and monitors from New York and made the announcement: John Wall was the first pick of the NBA Draft by the Wizards. It was never a secret, but neither is New Year's Eve every year, so the hundreds of season ticket-holders wedged onto the practice floor at Verizon Center in downtown Washington acted as if the big ball had just dropped in Times Square. They celebrated, cheering and shouting as they watched Wall, the point guard from Kentucky, grin, hug his family and walk to the stage. Minutes earlier, they had been treated to televised clips of their last No. 1 overall pick, Kwame Brown in 2001 (booing him ferociously), and of disgraced onetime favorite Gilbert Arenas (widespread groaning). The long-suffering fans knew exactly what they were celebrating.
John Wall: 'I'm A Leader That Won't Mind Speaking Up To The Older Guys' - Mike Prada, SB Nation DC
Wall also said he is thrilled to be the leader of a new youth movement in D.C. The Wizards obviously have four picks this year, which means a lot of new young guys are coming in, so Wall took note. "That means a lot. It means we're going out there and trying to start up brand new and build the team all over again," he said. "Let's hope that, with me and the other guys picked this year, we can change the organization around on and off the court."
The fans and John Wall - Dan Steinberg, DC Sports Bog
"It's the first time in two decades I can actually root for a Washington basketball team," said Adam Bieber, perhaps overwhelmed by the moment. "Twenty-three years of being depressed. Gugliotta. Webber. Strickland. Kwame Brown." "Tyrone Nesby!" shouted out one of his friends. "Popeye Jones!" shouted another.
Kentucky sets first-round record - Jim O'Connell, Associated Press
John Wall turned and hugged his mother when Commissioner David Stern announced that the Kentucky freshman had been selected No. 1 overall by the Washington Wizards. "I can’t even, words can’t even explain right now," Wall said as he talked of his mother, Frances Pulley, who raised him in Raleigh, N.C. "Growing up I lived in a tough neighborhood, getting in trouble in school, especially when my dad passed. So my mom taking me to school and picked up in the afternoon, that was it. As a kid, 10, 11 years old, you want to see your family spend time and (we) didn’t really have it. She was the first lady, she says, if you don’t change your attitude, you’ll never be doing so for her, to be in some situation, means a lot to me and I love her to death."
A Rose by another name - John Keim, Washington Examiner
"He compares favorably [to Rose]," ESPN draft analyst Jay Bilas said. "He's faster in the open floor. He can get end to end faster than anyone in this draft and as fast as any prospect I can remember. A guy like Wall plays ahead of the defense so often that he's so dynamic. He has a very quick first step. "Rose is a more powerful player and probably a better finisher at the rim. Wall can be a better defender. I don't think he reached his defensive potential because he can make basket-saving plays."
Wizards Get Their Game Changer - Andrew Rosen, Wizards.com
In a league that has become more and more point guard driven, the Wizards just drafted one who in the words of Head Coach Flip Saunders might "revolutionize the point guard position because of his athleticism and his extremely intelligent mind-set as far as running a team." It was this mind-set that helped the Wizards #1 overall pick turn Kentucky basketball around in just one season. Starting at point guard as a freshman at Kentucky, Wall was instantly put under the microscope. Displaying poise and maturity beyond his 19 years, Wall embraced the pressure of quarterbacking one of the winningest programs in college basketball. In just his second collegiate game, Wall calmly sank a game-winning buzzer beater against the Miami Redhawks. The game-winner sparked the Wildcats to a 29-2 record and a #1 seed in the NCAA Tournament.
On the Kirk Hinrich trade
The Bulls are trading Kirk Hinrich to Washington - Kelly Dwyer, Ball Don't Lie
The deal, which could not be completed until July 8 due to salary cap restrictions, would knock $9 million off Chicago's books for next season, and allow the team to come very close to being able to offer two free agents a contract that starts at the maximum next season. For the Wizards? Well, we have no idea why they're working this trade. Just a day earlier, the Oklahoma City Thunder grabbed the 18th pick in the draft from the Miami Heat for the pittance of $2 million and the acceptance of Daequan Cook's(notes) $2.2 million contract. Washington would have to take on $17 million with Hinrich over the next two seasons, scuttling its own cap space both this summer and next in the process. All for a little guard depth and the 17th pick?
Bulls clear space, send Hinrich, 17th pick to Wizards - David Aldridge, NBA.com
The Wizards have coveted the 29-year-old Hinrich for several seasons, wanting his veteran presence in their backcourt and his ability to play both guard spots. Besides his on-court skill Washington believes that Hinrich can be a solid mentor for John Wall, whom the Wizards will take with the first pick in tonight's NBA Draft. Hinrich was a good instructor for Derrick Rose, the Bulls' star guard who was also taken first overall in the Draft two years ago. The deal also gives Washington some flexibility in case Gilbert Arenas does not return to form following last season's 50-game suspension that he received from NBA Commissioner David Stern after the infamous guns in the locker room incident with former teammate Javaris Crittenton. The Wizards now will have a solid three-guard rotation and will not bring back veteran Randy Foye next season.
Report: Bulls Packaging Hinrich With Pick to Gain More Cap Space - Tom Ziller, NBA FanHouse
For the Bulls, the move frees up the $1.3 million that would have been owed to the 17th pick and the $9 million owed to Hinrich next season. Chicago is a major player in free agency, and with this deal has nearly enough cap space to sign two max-level free agents outright. LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Amar'e Stoudemire, Joe Johnson and Carlos Boozer -- basically the entire top of the free agent class -- have all been mentioned as Bulls targets. Hinrich is also on the books for $8 million in 2011-12, and this deal effectively ends any chance at a big-name free agent the Wizards would have had this summer. Hinrich is traditionally a point guard, but showed an ability to play off the ball next to Derrick Rose in Chicago. One would assume he'll split minutes with incumbent Wiz guard Gilbert Arenas and presumptive top pick John Wall. It's expected Arenas will be the team's starter at shooting guard this season.
What’s amazing is that Hinrich’s deal continuously gets more poisonous as time goes on. The development of the Free Agency Summer of Doom, the impending lockout, the drafting of Wall, the drafting of Rose, everything builds towards Hinrich becoming less and less valuable, despite the fact I would donate significant body parts to get him on the depth chart in front of Mike Conley. This has got to be an Arenas-related move. It simply has to be. Either that or they’re flipping Hinrich like a Vaudeville theater.
Wizards get Hinrich, 17th pick from Bulls - Spence, DC Pro Sports Report
It’s certainly possible Hinrich can resurrect his career in Washington and I’m sure the Wiz will give him every chance to do that. However, this definitely looks more like the Wizards using their cap space creatively, employing a "cash for trash" or "bring out your dead" [BOYD] strategy of taking other team’s bad contracts in exchange for young prospects and/or draft picks. While most people would want the BOYD strategy to involve taking back only players with 1 year remaining on their contract, that might not be realistic. I can understand not wanting any more multi-year contracts going into a new collective bargaining agreement, but that’s a view lots of teams have so making those deals won’t be a simple matter. In any case, Hinrich’s contract will now be a valuable bargaining chip going into the 2011-12 offseason, when he has only one year remaining and will look good to teams hoping to shed salary.
On drafting Kevin Seraphin
Wild night for Wall, Wizards - Michael Lee, Wizards Insider
During the interview with reporters, Seriphan was wearing a Bulls cap, but talking about how excited he was to be in Washington. And from what I hear, he really, really wanted to play for the Wizards. Tommy Sheppard and Milt Newton went to see Seriphan in Treviso, Italy a few weeks ago and came away impressed. Seriphan came away thinking that the Wizards really wanted him. Unable to workout because of a minor knee injury, he visited five teams in six days last week, including Washington, Oklahoma City and Cleveland (which I heard was looking to get the 20th pick in order to take him). But I heard that when he visited Washington, Seriphan told Grunfeld, "You need to take me! You need to take me." From witnesses in the room, Grunfeld apparently smiled and told him he might be able to work something out.
Wizards Pick Up Additional Building Blocks - Mike Jones, CSN Washington
Seraphin, a 20-year-old, 6-9, 263-pound forward/center, is described by international scouts as a physical rebounder/shot-blocker, and some have compared his game to that of Denver's Nene. Seraphin, who attended the draft and spoke to the media after he was selected, said his game also is similar to that of Atlanta's Al Horford. "I rebound, I block shots, and I can [bang]," Seraphin said, pounding his fist into his hand with a grin. "I am excited to play for Washington. They saw me play a lot and I plan to work hard."
On drafting Trevor Booker
Wizards' plan was to get tougher through draft - Gene Wang, Wizards Insider
Wizards team President Ernie Grunfeld said among the team's top priorities in this draft was to add toughness, and thus it made a deal with Minnesota for the No. 23 and 56 picks in exchange for the 30th and 35th selections. "There were two or three guys we were looking at, and we were hoping to get two players that we were really looking at at 30 and 35, but it didn't look like it was going to happen," Grunfeld said, "and we wanted to make sure that we got the player we were looking at, and that's the reason we moved up, because if we stayed at 30 and 35, we could have lost both those players."
On drafting Hamady Ndiaye
How About Some Snap Judgments About The Wizards Draft? - B.J. Pierson, Half Smokes
Ndiaye is from Dakar, Senegal and played center at Rutgers. He's the reigning defensive player of the year for the Big East and blocks a lot of shots. Basically he is a really tall, defensively gifted but offensively challenged individual. He could be the next Ben Wallace, he could be Dikembe Mutombo or he could even be Theo Ratliff. Sadly, it is likely he has an extremely good chance at being none of those guys and just disappearing into the night like most players picked 56th in the draft tend to do. Toss a coin in the air, this one could go either way.
Multimedia Links
Great Wall T-Shirt - One vs. Many
Ernie Grunfeld’s Attempt at the John Wall Dance - Truth About It
Wizards distribute John Wall T-shirts - Gene Wang, Wizards Insider
John Wall does the John Wall Dance with Big Tigger - Kyle Weidie, Truth About It
Talking with Stephen A. Smith about John Wall, Gilbert Arenas and the Wizards - Truth About It
Twitter / JaVale McGee
How do u go first round averaging 3 points...I guess it's all potential...
Game Changer: John Wall’s New Verizon Center Banners - Truth About It
Overall Evaluations
Grunfeld goes again, this time after pick No. 56 - Craig Stouffer, Pick & Roll
Grunfeld didn't say anything about free agency other than to acknowledge that the Wizards have cash: "I think it’s going to be very exciting. I think the fans will see an exciting team, and they’re going to be excited because we’re going to have a lot of young players who they can see develop, who they can see on a nightly basis and like we said, we want to be competitive for many years to come. We have a new CBA coming up, we don’t know what that’s going to be like, and I think the way we’re going about doing this worked for the Capitals, and Ted believes in it, and I believe in it, and we’re going to try to carry out that plan... It’s very seldom that one player steps in and changes the whole core of the franchise by himself. That’s why we want to get these young players, and we want to continue to grow with them and add pieces. This whole process started last year at the trade deadline."
NBA Draft: The Winners And Losers - Sean Deveney, The Baseline
Washington came away with a pretty big one-night haul in terms of its rebuilding. John Wall was the known pick at No. 1, but the Wizards also landed a quality veteran mentor for Wall, Kirk Hinrich from the Bulls. Not only did they get Hinrich, but they also pilfered the Bulls’ No. 17 pick, too, and selected big French project Kevin Seraphin. They later traded for Minnesota’s pick (23), taking Trevor Booker. The Wizards have a goal of adding young talent, and they did so in a large way on Thursday, starting with Wall. "I will go in and show those guys what I can do," Wall said. "I want to be a leader. I think I am a leader who is not afraid to speak up to the older guys."
Wizards postdraft thoughts - Craig Stouffer, Pick & Roll
After taking John Wall, a foregone conclusion, the Wizards thought/hoped they could get a pair of more relatively mature, polished and experienced big men with picks 30 and 35, specifically Quincy Pondexter and Trevor Booker. But when Booker went at No. 23 and it was clear Pondexter wasn't going to last until 30, Wizards president Ernie Grunfeld and co. pulled the trigger on a trade to make sure they at least got one of them instead of losing both. Size and defense appear to drive the selections of Kevin Seraphin and Hamady Ndiaye, and there's no arguing that. The Wizards proved last season that energetic, athletic wing-types, such as Cartier Martin, can be found at almost any time. No need to get them in the draft.
2010 NBA Draft Grades - Tom Ziller, NBA FanHouse
The Wizards take John Wall, and it should be a merry night in the District. But then GM Ernie Grunfeld goes and trades for Kirk Hinrich (owed $17 million over two years) so he can draft French power forward Kevin Seraphin, a nice prospect but not worth all that Hinrich salary. Armed with the No. 30 and No. 35 picks, Washington trades up to get promising Clemson power forward Trevor Booker, who should have been available at 30 if not 35. Wall will change the franchise, and maybe the league. But a decent population of Wizards fans won't be able to enjoy that fully because their front office is still making weird, hard-to-explain decisions. Alanis Morrissette almost had it right. This ain't irony, but it is like rain on your wedding day. The bizarre moves can't ruin this draft because of Wall, but you'd still prefer Grunfeld didn't rain his crazy all over the place. Final Grade: B.
Wizards on right track - Michael Wilbon, Wilbon's World
Teams building from scratch have to make moves, bold and creative moves. They have to do so quickly and aggressively, taking calculated risks, looking not too far into the future while realizing it's not time to live in the present either. The Washington Wizards, on all of those fronts, did splendidly Thursday night, drafting and trading pieces that figure to be part of a contending team or later allow for further moves that will ultimately help deliver a run deep into the playoffs. The 2010 NBA draft didn't mean jack to most NBA teams, most notably the two-time champion Los Angeles Lakers and the runner-up Boston Celtics. But it meant everything to the Wizards, who got to select a franchise player in John Wall; acquire a veteran guard in Kirk Hinrich, who can play real live defense and shoot; draft a project in Kevin Seraphin, a big and athletic Frenchman, about whom we know terribly little, but a kid the Wizards loved and knew they wouldn't find available with a later pick.
NBA Draft Recap - Kevin Pelton, Basketball Prospectus
When someone asks, "Who had the best draft?" it's a loaded question. Usually, that seems to be less a matter of who added the most talent than who did the most with the picks they had. So putting the Wizards here has relatively little to do with John Wall and is much more about Seraphin and Trevor Booker. The reaction to Washington's deal for Hinrich was instant and negative, but I don't think the former Chicago guard is nearly as worthless as he's being made out to be. Hinrich has been one of the league's best defensive guards, while his offensive value has fluctuated depending on whether he's making his threes (last year being a down year). For the Wizards, creating cap space was always more useful for deals like this than going out and signing a marquee free agent this summer, even with Wall in the mix. As compared to Oklahoma City's deal with Miami on Wednesday, Washington had to take on far more salary to get a similar draft pick, but keep in mind that Hinrich might bring additional return if flipped in another trade down the road.
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The draft wasn't that bad...
Wall is espected to pan out, but if only 1 player from the rest of our picks become a solid role player/contributor then we simply win. These drafts are always a crapshot so you can’t expect much from outside the top 5 picks. The Rutgers guy should be a good defensive presence. Booker is expected to be a hustler and "fight for the ball" guy regardless of his height (like a Glen Davis) and this France guy is another big body that we hope can do some things.
At least Grunfield has the right idea in trying to get multiple good bigs since that is another key to winning in this league. It kinda look like he is trying to build this team up like Billups Pistons which is not a bad idea.
by ATLredskin on Jun 25, 2010 9:18 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
If its a crapshoot then RC Buford is crapstastic
Manu Ginobili (57th), John Salmons (26th), Tony Parker (28th), Luis Scola (55th), Leandro Barbosa (28th), Beno Udrih (28th), Ian Mahinmi (28th), Goran Dragic (45th), George Hill (26th), Dejuan Blair (37th)
by morethesamewiz on Jun 25, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
all of them are well after 17. and many of the ones in the high twenties were by teams playing deep in the playoffs already- they had starters already!
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
no offense, but i dont have the time to research this for you. if you believe in your heart of hearts that Eg is 100% honest and upfront. Great! I am ok disagreeing with you and not care to support it.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
via Twitter
Jonathan Givony: Jerome Randle will play for Washington’s summer league team. He’s gonna make that team and be a steal for them.
Jerome Randle
Has great range and will provide a great 3 point threat. He has great handles and can run the floor just as well as John Wall. Its a surprise he went undrafted.
by Speedytosin on Jun 25, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
OKC vs Wash
I know a lot has been made so far comparing the two teams. But when you consider everything OKC did, it leaves the Wizards looking just fine.
Put everything together and OKC traded away the 21, 26 and 32 picks and agreed to take $9 million in salary, for the rights to the 10th & 18th picks. A good move for them because of Aldrich, but mostly ho hum if you ask me.
Hinrich is an expensive addition for the Wizards, but he’ll be more useful than the BOYD players OKC received, and it’s fairly questionable how much that final year of his contract will impact anything if there’s a lockout. Hinrich will also be a better future trade chip than the BOYD players OKC received. Finally, Seraphin was a good use of the 17th pick, and with McGee could potentially solidify the center position for years to come for the Wizards.
Also bought the 31st Pleiss from Atlanta (from NJ)
and traded future 2nd for Latavious Williams (48) and 51st for Ryan Reid (57)
by morethesamewiz on Jun 25, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Trade chip for what?
Don’t you realize that in order for Hinrich to be a "trade chip" we will first need to be in position to contend and to take on a big contract? We have to not only be "contending," but Hinrich can’t be part of the reason for the success or there will be no reason to dump him.
The only other option is that some other contender needs a PG and feels that Hinrich will boost them to the championship (and thus flips us expiring contracts and a 1st round pick for a one year rental) — but that’s a pipe dream because no contender would ever see a 31 yr old declining Hinrich as the answer to their problems.
Please explain.
(Sorry for the double post – I posted this comment in response to you on the other thread also. Just looking for some answers.)
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 25, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not a pipe dream it's reality
There have been plenty of reports that BOTH the Lakers and Celtics wanted to trade for Hinrich this last season, so contenders definitely see Hinrich as a piece. The same thing may happen this season or next, or we might….gasp…play Hinrich as our 3rd guard! He’s not putting us over the cap.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
You are missing the point (again)
The question is not whether Hinrich is a piece NOW, the question is whether he’s a piece in two years when he is 31. And unless you think we are contending in the next two years, he’s not a piece for us either.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 25, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure
why we need a 17 million caddy? Wouldn’t Livingston have sufficed?
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
by Sean Fagan on Jun 25, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Im not trying to defend Ernie in any way
because I’m the first to bash him…but I think the trade was about getting Seraphin and Ernie was happy to take on Hinirch’s contract because he wanted him.
I'm not arguing that point
I’m not sure why we had to make such a substantial investment in a player where we held the leverage.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
great…we need another point guard- lol say good bye to livingston. though he was probably out the door already
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 9:49 AM EDT reply actions
Oh, Ernie ...
I love the NBA Draft every year. Last year, it was ruined by Ernie, and I spent the night taking out my frustrations by posting on this blog. So this year, after the Hinrich trade, I figured I should not take my computer home, and instead take out my frustrations in my exercise room while watching the draft.
Today I am very sore, in many ways.
I agree with Jericho’s comment in a prior post — I like the players, but not the moves that got them. I don’t know who Booker will guard at the next level, but the other three (plus Hinrich) can defend, so that’s something new for Ernie. Ernie tends to make panic trades, so trading 30 and 35 for a guy that probably would have been there at 30 is a lost opportunity. But maybe he is right that Booker would not have been there, and the guys that would be there wouldn’t stick. I would have been happy with Booker at 30, so perhaps that trade isn’t the worst. It certainly isn’t the best, though. Nbadraft.net says that Ndiaye will be one of the 5 best defenders in this draft, so we’ll see.
The Hinrich trade is a head-scratcher. It HAS to be the first step in something else, be it a trade with Indiana (Paul George seems like a classic Ernie pick — I would prefer Seraphin), or moving Gil. The Wizards traded Caron Butler, with one year left on his contract, so it could get Hinrich with two years left? But if Seraphin is the real deal, two years of Hinrich will be well worth it.
My overall impression was that Ernie is like that guy at work who works loudly and publicly, trying to prove to the (new) boss that he is a great employee. He made a big show yesterday so that everyone could call him a genius. Just like everyone did last year, and we saw how well that turned out. The biggest strike against Grunfeld is that Wilbon thinks the Wizards had a great draft.
We traded Butler
Because he was ineffective. His salary isn’t that bad if he plays ot his potential, but he wasn’t working for us. Hinrich’s play has dropped off as well, but maybe a new team will recharge him.
Chad Ford give the Wiz an A-.
Along with other positive reviews of the Wiz’ draft, it would appear that more objective observers like what Ernie did last night.
That doesn’t mean I love what Ernie did, only that I’m re-thinking things a bit.
by YellaFella on Jun 25, 2010 9:52 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
As I just posted
The media-types gave Ernie high grades last year, too. So their accuracy — not so much.
The media-types...
Nor anyone else could see gun-gate coming, could they? My point is that you’re more likely to get objective reviews from objective sources. Would you disagree?
Are you saying that without gun-gate, Ernie's draft last year was great?
I would agree that you get more objective reviews from objective sources, but not more informed or accurate.
Right - Wizards were already quite bad even before Arenas got suspended
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 25, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Right
And not to open a big can of worms, but if the team hadn’t been so terrible before gun-gate, there’s virtually no chance that their stupid card game on the team plane escalates to that level.
The team as-constructed was playing terribly. That led to an increasingly toxic locker room, which resulted in one of the oddest players in the league (love him or hate him) to act out in totally unacceptable ways.
That’s NOT to say Ernie is in any way to blame for gungate. But it is to say that he doesn’t get a free pass on last year’s draft.
True enough..
But there was method to his madness. He was building a team he thought could compete. That means vets around a solid core. He thought he did that with the trade, and so did many others.
In hindsight, was he wrong? Yeah. But hindsight is always 20-20.
I'm not understanding your point
You originally made the point that because the media seems to think that Ernie did well, perhaps you will think he did so, too. I made the point that the media thought that last year, and he clearly didn’t, so perhaps the media’s opinion isn’t gospel. Now you say hindsight is 20-20.
A lot of people on this blog thought last year’s draft was a trainwreck on draft night, despite what the media said. And they were right.
This year many people are questioning his decisions. You seem to be saying we shouldn’t — I’m not sure why: because of what Chad Ford says, because no one knows now? I’m confused.
Not just Chad Ford...
Wilbon, Ian Thomsen at SI.com, others, too. My point was that maybe as fans we’re not as objective as we could be. I realize that I have a built-in bias toward the Wiz, Skins, other D.C.-area teams. So when I want another take on something, like a draft, I find it valuable to consult other, more dispassionate sources, to see if they have points to make that I hadn’t considered.
I never, ever said we shouldn’t question what Ernie does. I said it’s good to get out of the echo chamber and gather other opinions. I’m disappointed in the draft after Wall. But since many others who don’t have an emotional stake in this, like I do, think the Wiz had a good draft, maybe I should re-evaluate my position — not necessarily change it, but consider what they’ve said.
What’s hard to understand about that?
by YellaFella on Jun 25, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yay!
Seems like outside of folks making angry Pavlovian responses to everything Grunfeld does, the rest of the pundits were quite impressed.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
What's hard to understand about my point?
I said the media thought Grunfeld did great last year, and he clearly didn’t. You say, “oh, that’s hindsight.” But it is the truth.
My point is that if the media say Grunfeld did a great job, I’m not sure that means much of anything given their track record.
It was not a trainwreck
As YellaFella noted, it did not work out in hindsight but it was no trainwreck. You fail to take into account that we also traded multiple bad contracts in that trade. We’d still have Songaila on the books if it weren’t for that trade, so we gave ourselves quite a bit of flexibility that we are now using.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
And you're not aceding to disgrunted's point
That last year’s draft was by all accounts a failure. Barring that, Grunfeld completely managed to overlook how the return of Arenas might effect the rest of the team.
I know you don’t lie Butler, but his transformation into a me first, play breaking ball hog came after the return of Arenas. Its up to Grunfeld to see that, and perhaps properly diagnose that what he had on paper isn’t working.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
I'm going to have to agree.
Almost all of us thought that would have been at least a 40 win team.
by callmecostanza on Jun 25, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
u mean under .500? i dont think many people felt that team was any better than the 4th best seed in the east- at best. which as it turned out means the 12th best of the 16 playoff teams since it took 50 wins to make the playoffs in the west.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Thats Crazy to me
It’s totally his fault for essentially picking foye/miller over curry, who as it turned out was more productive and “nba rdy” than those two seasoned vets.
OKC pushed the nba champs to a seven game series in the second round of the playoffs i believe. we won how many games- lol
we turned 30 and 35 into the 23 and 56, picked up a player we could have signed anytime and cleared the decks so a second team in our conference could sign two max free agents to complement their all star in the deepest free agent pool in history.
and we drafted undersized men for toughness and potential!
ernie panicked
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 9:57 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
They definitely added toughness, which is something this team has lacked. Also, both Seraphin and Booker seem ideally suited to playing alongside a PG like John Wall.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
100% agree . but i think a lot of players fit that description. so why the expensive reach
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Booker seems like an expensive reach to me. Although, from one of the quotes in Jake’s post above it sounds like Minnesota may have been intending to draft Booker for themselves, which initiated the Wizards to make the deal, but I don’t know how it played out.
But in hindsight I don’t think the Hinrich + 17th pick deal was a terribly expensive reach.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Would Minny have used a 1st round pick on a PF?
when they have Kevin Love
by morethesamewiz on Jun 25, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Leonis bringing hockey mentality?
We added some much needed size and toughness with Seraphin and Booker, and I can’t help but think that these guys may eventually be Wall’s “enforcers” ala how Brashear was with a young Ovie, or even Charles Oakley to Jordan.
Clearly these guys needs to make the team and contribute to be able to fill this role, but they could have some added value by protecting Wall and laying down the hammer to anyone who messes with him.
Also, while Booker seems like a reach to many of us, he was a monster at Clemson, and as far as I know, had the fastest sprint of any player at the combine at 3.10 (yes, that includes John Wall who ran a 3.14). He will need to work on his outside shot and prove he can defend threes, but I think this pick may turn out to be better then many think.
At this point I’m willing to give this draft a chance, especially since so little is known about Seraphin, although I like what I have heard.
I've been slamming EG but I'll definitely give Booker a chance.
I just think we slightly overpaid for him. Hinrich is the trade that really bothers me.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 25, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
The guy is Dominic McGuire, basically
Freak athlete, energy guy who had enough athleticism to dominate in college.
The NBA ain’t college.
Disagree
Trevor Booker is not Dominic McGuire, I have seen plenty of both. Booker was a top player on his team in the ACC basically all four years at Clemson. Dom did not do much while playing in the weaker Pac-10 at Cal, and still produced less then Booker while playing at Fresno state.
there is a theme towards guys who can push the ball…which i like since we have wall. phoenix east! and we got two guys who can push mcgee…wake up buddy…hit the gym
dont know why i keep reaching for a zoubek- someone with some real size and meat that wont get pushed around the block against the best teams when they slow it down
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 10:09 AM EDT reply actions
Zoubeck, S.Landesburg, Aubrey Coleman, Jon Scheyuer, Tyler Smith, Deon Thompson….
You think Ernie will be back in good graces if he signs 2 of these guys to the roster…
yeah- i do. it would go a long way with me. but i m not getting my hopes up that ernie will do something so obviously right. we like guys who have only played a couple years, or coming off a major injury, or dont speak english or something
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wayne Chism!!!
shine like bald head, smoke trees call me log head
by ThaCaronic on Jun 25, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In evaluating the trade to get Booker
We shouldn’t overlook the fact that Dallas purchased the #25 pick from Memphis.
by disgrunted on Jun 25, 2010 10:15 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
zackly…it is within that context that we obviously did poorly- significantly so.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 10:16 AM EDT reply actions
I'm curious
I was a little dubious of the Booker trade until I read the following, which left me a little more sympathetic:
After taking John Wall, a foregone conclusion, the Wizards thought/hoped they could get a pair of more relatively mature, polished and experienced big men with picks 30 and 35, specifically Quincy Pondexter and Trevor Booker. But when Booker went at No. 23 and it was clear Pondexter wasn’t going to last until 30, Wizards president Ernie Grunfeld and co. pulled the trigger on a trade to make sure they at least got one of them instead of losing both.
Do we know if Minnesota was initially making that pick for themselves, or did they pick Booker for Washington? The trade was announced after the pick was made.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 10:19 AM EDT reply actions
I think
a lot of people have their assumptions backwards in thinking that Ernie traded up in order to “reach” for Booker. From the quote you pulled, it’s clear to me that Minny picked Booker without Washington in mind. And since he and Pondexter were high on the Wiz’s board, EG felt he had to make the move to get one of the 2.
I LOVE the player in Booker, just didn’t like the trade. But he plays with so much ferocity which is something we were definitely lacking. The Booker haters need to relax. People get so hung up on measurements – if you can play, you can play. And from what I’ve seen, this guy looks to be a physical presence from a defensive standpoint. How could you not love his non-stop motor?
by geechy_suede on Jun 25, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
That's been my question
I suspect that MN took Booker for us, because the trade happened very quickly. If MN was so set on Booker I don’t know they would have pulled the trigger so quickly. Hopefully someone figures this out soon.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 25, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
minnesota is stacked inside i thought so i discounted it as more EG bullshit defending his move. the guy will outright lie which is the first and most important reason i dont like him.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 10:24 AM EDT reply actions
maybe. i thought he was a 4 and they already had two solid PFs. i dont know though. they need a lot of help..and we keep giving it to them
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
no offense, but i dont have the time to research this for you. if you believe in your heart of hearts that Eg is 100% honest and upfront. Great! I am ok disagreeing with you and not care to support it.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
My beliefs have nothing to do with anything
You made an assertion. Now back it up or retract it. If you don’t care to back it up, then it is, by default, retracted. I’m ok with that…
thats is cool jones-y. this is a message board, not a trial. there are opinions here. it is how i feel based on watching his actions and listening/reading what he says for a few years. regardless of how i feel about him personally, his track record is not good with us at all. that is a fact and neither of us has to spend time to research and prove.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I support bomber here
I remember instances where Grunfield has been less then honest.
As much as I am not an EG fan
GM’s are essentially politicians. Lying is part of the gig.
yeah- but i was not referring to hiding his intentions, etc. EG lied about the culture of the locker room…a cancer HE knowingly let fester out of control. I do think Ted will hold him more accountable with that regards, though, so we can all move forward!
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks for letting me know bec i dont either…wait, is that an opinion or a fact??? what is going on here any ways? i totally believe u, kinda =) lol !!!
it is an unimportant off thread that deserves to fade away.
he is what he is…mediocre. on a scale of 1-10, he is a 3-4 at worse and a 5-6 at best. he is too inconsistent with his swing for the fence ALL THE TIME mentality and he overpays when he makes the safe, right choice. hence, i never see him putting together a 55-60 win franchise. instead of liar maybe we can end this with he is a YES man who would sacrifice his integrity to save his job.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
read again…
EG lied about the culture of the locker room…a cancer HE knowingly let fester out of control.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
gilbert arenas shits in andre blatches shoes. shits. defecates. drops his wastes and the behavior is NOT nipped in the bud…so what happens…
look i really am not interested in revisiting what has been disected a million times before. and i dont care if you support my feelings that ernie grunfeld is less than stellar at his job or leads with integrity or will lie to save his ass.
the facts are the facts…he has been here for years. during that time, the team has stunk- never, ever coming close to competing for a spot deep in the playoffs much less a championship. he allowed- and he is the General Manager- a cancerous culture to build within the organization until it exploded and combined with lousy play resulted in the near complete breakup of the team. given a fresh start, he drafted the consensus best player and spun his wheels with the other picks bringing us unknown, unheralded prospects that by and large brough a thundering “meh” in endorsements.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
his track record is not good with us at all. that is a fact and neither of us has to spend time to research and prove.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
hahahahahahahaha
Really reaching now huh? I think his track record with us is solid if not as strong as it was in Mil, or NYK. I mean did he run a playoff team into the ground here? The 4 best years of my Wizards life came after he came in and turned the team around. Hiring EG is probably the best decision Pollin made in the last 20 years, Does that mean I don’t want him removed? No. I just think there is alot of revisionist history going on. It’s like a Micheal Moore movie. Theme I agree with, methods/shortcuts that undercut the argument.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 25, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree he is better than his replacement! the FACT is the Washington Wizzards have not won more than 45 games in thirty seasons (1979-80 to be exact). so we definitely have a different definition of good because any way i define it, it includes winning 55% or more of your games.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
hahahaha
Did I say good? Nope. But go ahead. I said the best 4 years of my Wizards life were with EG. He came in, made some moves and we improved significantly. It’s not like he came in and the team got worse. Just like with Eddie Jordan, Arenas, AJ, and Caron I am ready to move on without him but I’m not gonna act like any of those people ran this woeful loser of a franchise into the ground. That was Abe’s job. Again there are so many way to criticize EG with valid points I just wish more people used the valid points instead of excessive hyperbole and unsubstantiated proclamations. Reminds me of Kornheiser riffing on Gilbert.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 25, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
To defend les boulez's point
to an extent, I think an argument could be made that Grunfeld made a mistake in not properly diagnosing the attitude of his locker room. We all know through reading last year that the locker room was a less than ideal place to hang out, and perhaps some blame can be laid at Grunfeld’s feet for not having the foresight to see that the various collection of talent would not get along.
However, I would not go so far as to say that Grunfeld lied.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
I also agree with the locker room part
and lay alot of blame at EG’s feet for that. One of the many valid point’s. I was just unaware of him lying about it and was trying to make the point that when it gets that hyperbolic the substance of the argument gets diminished.
I think the Wizards/EG/Abe/Fanbase were like the nerdy kid who never got laid and then let the first woman to let us get in her pants walk all over us. Gil brought some excitement and swagger to the team so we overpaid him, coddled him(Letting him go over EJ’s head when asked to play D, shoe pooping, disregard rehab, etc) and let him treat the whole organization like his personal playground. If we, as a franchise, didn’t have such a record of epic failure I don’t think that stuff would have gone on. Of course thats gonna rub off on the youngsters and rubs the other guys the wrong way sometime. No way that goes on for a team that knows success.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 25, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
at the end of the day, i feel we got john wall and three second round picks. and we got kirk heinrich and paid a ransom to get him. that is the taste that is left in my mouth. i think the back up point guard we signed has every bit the same chance to contribute meaningfully as the chosen three- and he cost us nothing. i really hope EG goes and invites a couple other of the good players left undrafted (including a big body that wont get backed up to the basket all game giving up layups). but i have a feeling EG is sitting in his office pinching his butt saying aloud, “im so smart, im so smart, im the best, yay baby yay”
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 10:34 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Lots of people projected Booker to go in the 2nd round, so I understand your feelings about that. But Seraphin was picked fairly close to where he was projected to fall. Definitely not a 2nd round pick by any means.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
i m open that he could turn out good. he reminds me of kwame and already talking smack. never even lifted weights…still?!
at the end of the day i maintain this crappy taste in my mouth because i know it is a crap shoot with this pick. if he works, we are lucky. it was not the result of deft drafting by a solid scouting dept. and i know it is reckless to make that pick with a near lottery pick in an extremely deep draft
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
"it was not the result of deft drafting by a solid scouting dept."
Why do you say that? I thought they watched him in Europe this year. I agree it’s a crap shoot becauswe it was the #17 pick. If you walk away with a guy who can play 20-25 minutes on a decent team at 17 you did pretty well. We’ll have to see how he develops.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 25, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
definitely. and he might! i really hope so. i just fear he might be a little too short but maybe not. i like his spirit but he needs to start lifting weights!
ted leonsis said as much: international scouting was an area we were weak and he wanted to beef it up. i didnt even know but it did occur to me that we did not have any great international players.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
you could be right I was just saying I thought we scouted him in Europe
I have little to no knowledge of him so I have a tough time projecting anything about him.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 25, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
i think we did scout him. either he or his agent made a reference to wizzard scouts at at least one of the games. and i def will give them the benefit of the doubt that it was more than one.
he might turn out pretty good. hope so bec he can get some minutes now that AB broke his foot.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
because cash dont play and we are way under the cap. lol
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
and because we could have gotten 6 million instead of 3 million
nobody else was biting on Hinrich’s contract so we could have squeezed Chicago dry. Clearing that cap space represents Lebron James to them so its hard to overestimate how much Chicago valued moving Hinrich.
by morethesamewiz on Jun 25, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, we should've gotten 20 million
If this lands them Lebron + Bosh, or Lebron + DWade, they win the next 4 championships.
Because we could have got twice as much
$3M for Hinrich and pick each. Would they have paid? HELL yes!
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 25, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Are both foye and miller FA’s? If neither comes back, it means we traded the no. 5 pick for nothing
Sigh…….
by 8vechkin on Jun 25, 2010 10:59 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I think it was a team option
Right?
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 25, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Wall and Seraphin, Together Again
Interesting video on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAXx0GQPYaY&feature=related
It’s the highlights of the Nike Hoop Summit (US v. World) where both Wall and Seraphin played. They both look really good, but at the 2:35 mark you have a play where Seraphin dunks, then runs the floor to block Wall, followed by a play in which Wall has a nice drive in Seraphin’s face.
I must admit, I hadn’t heard of Seraphin before, but the video I’m seeing looks good. We don’t need him to be a world-beater, just to develop nicely and be a part of our front-court rotation with Blatche and McGee.
Seraphin's already showing an endearingly goofy Pech side (via Steinberg)
He was handed a Bulls hat, and he never gave it up, wearing it throughout the majority of a press conference in which he talked constantly about playing for the Wizards. He finally took it off when an NBA official urgently signaled from the sidelines, but by 1 a.m., he and his advisers were again wearing Bulls hats as they walked down Seventh Avenue. Hey, why not?
Can he get buckets?
by morethesamewiz on Jun 25, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
the Wiz added talent
EG got another pick in a solid draft. We got solid ballers…including Hinrich. We still have cap space and flexibility..I’m not sweating that the Thunder were mentioned every 5 minutes with a different trade.
agreed- i can catch up with them in june when they are still playing
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 11:41 AM EDT reply actions
I am not that dissapointed
with the draft itself. The more I have been reading about this french kid Seraphin and when I look at his body and mobility it looks like he might be able to fit in nicely with a big man rotation. It is great that he WANTS to be in washington too. I like Booker on this team too, we have been missing a guy like him. My only problem with Booker is the way we obtained hm by packaging our 2 picks. But that being said, whatever, it’s done, Booker is on the Wiz and I like it. The rutgers kid?? Whatever he was at #56. Wall, Seraphin, and Booker I really like. And I am really excited if these Childress rumors are true, I googled it last night and saw at least 10 different reports of him coming to us, sweet.
The only part of this whole equation that bothers me is the Hinrich trade. Why are we adding salary to next year? It just doesn’t make sense… Maybe this is a way of getting rid of Gilbert (I love him) which would make this hinrich deal make a lot more sense. I hate to say i because I love Gil but I would actually be happy if that was the case. However, if this move was to add depth and a “mentor” then I strongly dissaprove
Trevor Booker's Highlights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl1iknKUBmU
how could you not get pumped for this guy?? I love it, just wish we didnt have to trade up, but still, dude is a beast.
by jeffco01 on Jun 25, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
i feel you on this one
I have to admit I didn’t watch too much of him at Clemson, but the youtube clips show a banger willing to get physical which is something we’ve always lacked. Granted, that’s why they’re called “highlights” but I like him!
Definitely agree that I wish we didn’t have to trade up, but when you really look at the players who were drafted around that 30-35 range, I didn’t feel as if we missed out on anybody. Sure, Whiteside could’ve fell to us – which is what some BF’ers were clamoring for – but we don’t need another rail-thin McGee clone.
by geechy_suede on Jun 25, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Be careful of highlight clips...
After all, you could put together a great reel of Kwame stuff that would make him look like an all-star. He had his moments from time to time, too.
I’m not saying that this discounts Booker’s potential impact; just to be wary, because all you’re seeing is the best of the best. It’s like watching an awesome movie trailer, then going to the movie and realizing that the stuff in the trailer was all the good stuff in the whole move.
it might be to add insurance and flexibility to arenas. and hinrich should play well with both wall and arenas
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 11:52 AM EDT reply actions
I think Ernie showed that he's mediocre
And that’s really the problem. The moves were neither great nor end of the world bad, but they were moves any average GM could make. You don’t build a contender around being average. I don’t think I’ve ever been impressed with a Grunfeld move. They seem as likely to work out as not.
But that’s really the problem. Unless he’s making more good moves then bad (and a great move now and then), we’re working at perennially bouncing between 8th seed and the lottery.
If a team doesn’t have a great GM, they should be looking to get one. And at the end of the day, our GM is middle of the pack.
by Elvin_is_my_Elvis on Jun 25, 2010 11:57 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 4 recs
Was Ernie had?
If that deal falls apart, Bucher reports the Kings will be Plan B for the Bulls. Yet a league source with knowledge of the Kings’ thinking tells FanHouse that’s not the case and the Kings have no interest, meaning it’s likely a smokescreen by the Bulls to gain leverage should the Wizards consider backing out.
by morethesamewiz on Jun 25, 2010 12:03 PM EDT reply actions
WIth Hinrich we won't know until next summer
This draft cannot be fully judged until next summer and we learn whether Hinrich and or Gilber \t are still around, and most importantly, whether we have any cap space to take a shot at Durant. If not, EG has screwed us again. If somehow we do have cap room, it was a good move to get KH to mentor Wall and use the BOYD strategy.
One thing that is interesting
is that despite it being a need, the Wizards didn’t add any small forwards. Melo and Durant are, of course, small forwards. But as you just said, Ernie just blew the cap room, barring a Gil trade.
unless...
the childress rumors are true. He would be the perfect SF for us. I would really like that move. Hate the Hinrich move
Well, then
that means all of that cap room is going to Hinrich and Childress.
Worst
Rebuilding
Ever
i like childress
really dislike hinrich…. if we agreed tp something like 4 years 20 mil with childress I am not upset at all. Hinrich deal is awful
Signing Howard would take Wizards further off course
a team in year one of rebuilding would be spending closing to two-thirds of its salary on a injury-prone 28 year old SG, an injury-prone 30 year old SF, and a declining 29 year old backup PG
by morethesamewiz on Jun 25, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd rather have Hinrich and Serafin than Childress
Either move would have messed up our cap space so I’d rather get 2 players than 1.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 25, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think he is really worth 5M a year and I think he will get more than that if he comes back
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 25, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he's definitely worth $5 million/year
But again, not with Hinrich here too. You can’t spend $14 million on those two guys.
by Mike Prada on Jun 25, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
New plan- live with current team, have mediocre year, fire grunfeld after the season, hire Pritchard, he maneuvers to get value from what we have and with him we truly rebuild.
by 8vechkin on Jun 25, 2010 1:06 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Thoughts on the Hinrich Trade
So I took a red eye back to DC last night and thought about the draft. Heres the best I can figure.
The FO sees John Wall as the future. They are 100% committed to developing him and don’t see us making any big moves the next 2 years. I would assume they had concerns about the locker room. To me it reminds me of when you buy a new TV and they offer those 2 year warranties. Those things are almost always a rip off. But your so invested in that 70’ Plasma you end up spending the $400 anyways just for peace of mind. I think EG and Ted had the same feeling. Wall is the future and they are over investing in him.
I’m not trying to defend the trade just trying to find the logic in it. I don’t like it and I think it’s sad that they seem to feel Gilbert has absolutely nothing to offer a young PG. I’m still optimistic for the Leonsis era if only because I think Abe Pollin was one of the worst owners ever. Great human being, piss poor owner.
I think that's probably it
I just really don’t like making one move to make another move. You never know if that second move works out.
agreed
Plus I think the whole “mentor” thing is a little over rated. If a guy listens and is coachable he’ll listen to Casell. If he’s not that kinda guy we’re screwed no matter who they bring in.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 25, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't get the sense that Hinrich is a vocal leader, though
I could be wrong.
Me neither
Didn’t he shy away from the captain role in Chicago a bit? My sense is that he’s like Antawn – a pro, but not a leader.
You would know better than me Prada
It just seems the whole “mentor” thing was being trotted out as the main basis for acquiring him.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 25, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know much about Hinrich
Just my sense that he’s not a vocal leader. Regardless, the mentor thing seems silly. Wall’s mentor is Sam Cassell.
I guess they’re worried about the professionalism in there, but Antawn Jamison was more of a pro than anyone, and that didn’t change things.
I don't understand the "trying to find the logic in it"
1) Wizards needed a backup PG/3rd guard
2) Wizards have a theme of bring tough, defensive players to complement the finesse core
3) Wizards have plenty of cap space and no intention of spending it on big free agents
Hinrich is an obvious fit given the above. How about the alternative? Let’s say we somehow pulled off a BOYD trade for Peja or MoPete. Then you still have to sign a decent veteran PG and what kind of contracts do those type of player get? If it’s a decent one, it would cost more than $17M and have a contract than runs longer than 2 years. Hinrich may solve the backup PG/3rd guard issue at LESSER COST than the Wiz could have gotten a comparable player on the open market.
Forget about how much Hinrich costs for now because by the time the Wizards will look to surround the core with FA’s Hinrich will be off the books and the Wiz STILL have $13M under the cap. They could probably sign 2 of Mike Miller, Josh Howard or Childress and still have cap space left.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait, what?
Then you still have to sign a decent veteran PG and what kind of contracts do those type of player get? If it’s a decent one, it would cost more than $17M and have a contract than runs longer than 2 years.
Really?
Yes, really
Who are you going to get that comes for less than $5M/year or only a 2 year contract? No one good.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Shaun Livingston
Duhon
Felton
Jason Williams
Eric Maynor
All those guys could be had for cheaper than Hinrich.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
by Sean Fagan on Jun 25, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great
Name them all. Maybe there are 25 PGs who would have come cheaper but none of them came with Seraphin and few of those can play the 2 and are good defensive players.
The cap space is still burning a hole in our pockets!
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
We could have gotten Seraphin at a cheaper cost or gotten more from the Bulls.
Isnt that what we’ve been getting at????
The Bulls were the team who wanted to offload Hinrich. They want the ability to sign 2 max players. We should have acquired more than just the #17th pick in the draft. But no, because Ernie LIKES Hinrich and because he wanted his Frenchman so badly he didnt try to get the most he could.
And the cap space IS NOT
“Burning a hole in our pockets”
Unlike the Knicks, we did not trade away draft picks to acquire cap space…
It certainly does seem the cap space is burning a hole in our pocket
as Ernie just spent a little under half already.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
Changed the argument JJ
You said even if we obtained the 11th pick in a BOYD trade, we’d still have to shell out alot of money for a 3rd guard. It was soon rather conclusively that that is not true. Then you claim, but wait, we wouldn’t haver Seraphin. And you would be right. We’d have Xavier Henry, a better player.
'09 salaries
Duhon $6M
Felton $5.5
Jason Williams $1.3M
Maynor- Rookie contract
So for the most part, you’ve made my point. $5M+ is the going rate for a good player. Maynor averaged 4.5 pts/gm and JW averaged 6 pts/game. Those guys aren’t good enough to be 3rd guards. Of course there are players who exist who will play for less than $5M but none are as good as Hinrich, either talent or fit.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
So instead of paying, say, Duhon $2M per season and being $15M under the cap in 2010….
we have Hinrich at $9M per season, added Seraphin and $3M in cash and are only maybe $8M under the cap.
We got Seraphin and the only cost is cap room that we WEREN’T GOING TO USE OTHERWISE.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Um
As the biggest proponent of the “you don’t know what Grunfeld” is going to do next line of arguing, its fairly ridiculous that you can state that unequivocably were not going to use the cap room.
The point is, now we can’t, and we overspent on an extra piece.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
by Sean Fagan on Jun 25, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why not?
We can’t spend the $13M in cap space we have left? Why not?
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
stats arent everything...
I dont get why you try to defend Ernie and follow him so blindly…Even GM’s are human beings…they make mistakes and are affected by BIAS..Hinrich was a guy he liked…IMO Duhon is as good as Hinrich….and Raymond Felton is BY FAR the better player…
If you watched Maynor play you’d know he’s a good player. Jason Williams is also good…
And if you want to play the stats game
12-4-4 in 39 minutes per game is NOT IMPRESSIVE by any means.
i apologize...that was his playoff stats...his regular season stats were WORSE
33.5 minutes per game.
40% from the field
37% from three (his “strength”)
75% from the line
10ppg, 4apg, 3rpg
Don't forget his terrible PER
Hinrich sucks now. He was decent a couple years ago.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 26, 2010 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes because Kirk Hinrich
In 15-20 minutes of game time is going to score well above 6 pts/game. End sarcasm. Opportunity cost. Hinrich is better than Jason Williams. But the cap space both this year and next year could be spent to obtain two better pieces. Two better pieces + J. Williams is better than Hinrich + Seraphin. That is how you need to evaluate this trade.
I don't think you are looking at the market
There is going to be VERY little money left over for small fish free agents this summer. That is why everyone and his mother is opting back into his contract if possible. Quinton Ross isn’t hitting the market, because he knows he isn’t getting paid otherwise.
Instead, we decide to invest a boatload of money in a guy for two years who we don’t need.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
thank you...
I see why Ernie pulled the trigger on this trade though…Ernie wanted to follow the BOYD strategy, and when the opportunity presented itself to get a guy he liked, he snatched him up along with the draft pick.
NO
It was not a BOYD trade. Hinrich does NOT = “Dead”.
Grunfeld TRADED FOR HINRICH and got $3M and #17 for taking on his salary. He got something for nothing.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
but it makes no sense
to over invest in a spare part, when you can get the same spare part for much cheaper on the market, or on a shorter term deal.
Look I can understand your need to to defend Grunfeld, but this is not the move for a rebuilding team. Rebuilding teams do not need a 9 million dollar backup PG. Hinrich is a luxury.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
"Need to defend Grunfeld" What?
Notice that I have the same opinion of Grunfeld’s performance that MOST national basketball pundits share.
Again, your point is that we could have paid less for a backup PG. This is certainly true. But it doesn’t matter. It’s free money. It wasn’t getting spent.
Whether it’s Duhon for $2M or Hinrich for $9M it’s not going to change anything else the Wizards do in the next 2 seasons and GOT THEM #17 for free.
If they trade Hinrich’s contract next season for another #1 pick then the Wizards will have gotten 2 #1 picks for cap space they had no intention of using. Why is this so hard to see?
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Since Leonsis said that we
are not going after big free agents and we will build patiently through the draft, so it’s safe to say we won’t commit all of our cap space a short few weeks after that proclamation.
It’s common sense.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
So we commit the money
to a 3rd guard for two years instead?
I’m sorry, but your logic seems to escape me.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
Yes
Because in 2 years we’ll have cap room to add pieces to the young core we just committed to.
And we did not commit THE money. We committed SOME money. There is still enough money to sign ANY realistic FA on the market and probably TWO FAs.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
we did not go after big name free agents. we only paid near big name free agent money to a free agent who is not a big name! lol
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Sean you can't have it both ways
The Wizards are going to spend money on free agency. It’s a luxury to spend heavily on a backup guard.
Yes, there’s no doubt Hinrich will be overpaid. When you accept a BOYD trade you’re inevitably adding a player that is overpaid. Hinrich’s contract is for two years, but he’s also better than most players you get via a BOYD trade.
This isn’t the unreasonable trade that everybody’s making it out to be. And there’s definitely a logic behind it. The Wizards want to add some quality veterans to go with a predominately young team. They decided to overpay for an otherwise decent player in order to get another prospect. Makes sense to me, and I’m glad the Wizards are making these types of deals. Hopefully there’s more to come.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
thank you for a logical argument.
If Hinirich is somehow flipped for something more valuable I’ll give credit where it is due…
Johnnie
Good points. I’m actually not trying to have it both ways. I am aware that with BOYD the team is going to acquire players that I’m not excited about, but give us flexibility in the future. My problem with particular trade is that it limits our flexibility for two years instead of one, and that we received a piece doesn’t seem to fit the team. I think you are right about veteran leadership, I just think they overpaid.
My point would be to look at what the Knicks gave the Rockets to get more room under the cap, and then look and what we got. I’m not sure that Grunfeld is extracting the most value for his assets.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
Yeah, there have definitely been other similar types of trades where teams have scored more by utilizing their cap space.
I think if Grunfeld were here to defend the trade, he’d make a much stronger pitch for the value of Hinrich playing alongside Wall,
That seems to be where a lot of people here disagree, and may be right. I don’t know frankly. I definitely believe it’s useful to have a player-mentor rather than just a coach-mentor.
How much did Hinrich really influence Rose I wonder?
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps he helped turn Rose into the player he is today
If so great. And I will eat some crow. I have done it before by defending the Foye/Miller trade. Its not unheard of, we can all be wrong.
I simply can’t see why people refuse to understand how some are disappointed with Grunfeld failing to maximize his assets. The tenor may have be off in some comments, but I think that people have a legitimate reason to gripe. I can also see the flipside, and see how people would think this is a smart move for the Wizards as it gives them depth and versatility.
The main problem that I have difficulty reconciling with is the fact that other teams in the past have extracted more value in trades such as this. And to me the “you don’t know what offers Ernie got,” or the “we won’t know until Ernie is done” arguments are as tired and shrill as the litany of Ernie offenses.
I can only react to the information that I have and from what I see, we didn’t get market value for doing the Bulls a favor. I think we could have asked for more.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
Some have gotten more value out of cap space, but should this trade be evaluated based on other individual trades? Maybe. But overall, I think the Wizards put themselves in a better position both in the short term and the long term by making this trade. To some degree, that’s good enough for me in evaluating the trade.
I also don’t think it’s fair to expect Grunfeld to match what some other teams have done, such as Houston’s practical theft of New York’s possessions (though consentual). Some BOYD trades are off the charts uneven, but others aren’t. For example, I don’t find that what OKC did overall yesterday was any more impressive than what Grunfeld accomplished.
In any case, what’s most important to me is the Wizards seem to be in a better position now than they were yesterday (and not just because of Wall). And it’s quite clear that Grunfeld is employing a strategy that’s not quite what others here prefer the most. While it seems a lot of people would prefer more of a pure BOYD strategy, Grunfeld clearly wants to spend some money on decent veterans as well. I see the Hinrich trade to involve a little bit of both strategies.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
, I don’t find that what OKC did overall yesterday was any more impressive than what Grunfeld accomplished.
I do…lol…They took less to get a spot one below the Wizards.
when you look at the entire picture
which includes what they gave up to get the 11th pick, it’s by no means any more impressive.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
And only Hinrich posses this mentor skill?
Other guys available for cheaper amounts do not? Rondo didn’t have Hinrich backing him up… I think that argument is a load of baloney…
Rondo had Garnett, Allen and Pierce.
Player mentors are a real part of sports, in basketball and otherwise. I’m glad the Wizards organization is serious about surrounding Wall with the types of players that will help him grow.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
If it can be any player
And not a player that plays the same position, why not look to bring in a professional like Foster or Dunleavy? Peja (you know, a guy who has actually success in the NBA), Mo Pete and D-Song? Someone who’s contract is also expiring and would also bring in a greater return?
You prioritize above and beyond everything trades that maximize cap flexibility and the ability to add prospects.
Grunfeld/Leonsis are pursuing a strategy that involves a mix of the BOYD and spending on a decent veteran core that aids but doesn’t block the growth of the young core.
From that perspective, Hinrich makes sense instead of those you listed.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
never said that he did
15 million however does f up your cap flexibility.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I would rather Hinrich’s contract plus the 17th over Peja’s plus the 11th in a heartbeat.
Not even close on so many levels.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you seirous???????
Xavier Henry is ready to contribute NOW. He is a legit long term solution to our SG position…The BOYD is not about the players you get back…and Hinirich is NOT GOOD…How does peja’s expiring contract f up our cap flexibility???!?!?!?!? I dont understand your reasoning.
$15 million this year versus $8 million this year.
Seraphin could be really good too. Maybe it’ll take longer for him to contribute significantly, but that’s mostly typical for the center position.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
not only 8million this year
But another 7 next year. And Henry is just as young as Seraphin, and he is a better prospect.
J Futbol look at these two scenarios
1) Wiz trade for 2 players in 2010. Each is paid $9 mil the first year and $8 mil the second. The Wiz get the #17 pick in the 2010 and 2011 drafts.
2) Wiz trade for 1 player in 2010 and 1 player in 2011. Each is paid $15 mil for one year. Wiz get the #11 in 2010 and #11 in 2011.
Under scenario 1, the Wizards pay $34 million for two #17 picks. Under scenario 2, the Wiz pay $30 million for two #11 picks.
Scenario 1 is obviously trading for two Hinrichs while 2 is trading for two Pejas. I think it’s clear that trading for 2 Pejas is better, so trading for 1 Peja should also be better than trading for 1 Hinrich.
This intentionally ignores the value of the players because I think that is an irrelevant factor to a rebuilding team.
by Palace of Good Play's Golden Toilet on Jun 25, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Difference between Henry and Seraphin
isn’t that great. The difference of 17m (peja’s contract…not sure the exact cost) for 1 year as opposed 17m over the course of 2 years is the big thing. We don’t need Seraphin to be a monster this season. The Wiz need to add as much good young talent in these 2 years and have the foundation to be a championship team when Wall hits his prime. Then we add the frent agent to put us over the edge. Hinrich limits the flexibility, but we did get Seraphin so lets be joyous.
And that seems
Ludicrous. What if John Wall is Derrick Rose and then some? What if Melo says he wants to play in Washington? Well too bad because we have Kirk Hinrich.
What if John Wall is decent but not the game changer we all hope he is? Having better prospects this year would be helpful. Having more prospects next year would also be helpful.
The only way your theory makes sense is if Kirk Hinrich is so unique that no other player in the NBA free agent list could provide the kind of veteran experience that would propel John Wall to stardom… Yeah, I am not buying it either.
Jhonnie Futbol
Please explain every single level that this is not close on. Id like to hear every single one of them
personally, i dont think a team that has not won more than 45 games in 30 years should be spending any money on free agents. they have proven that building good rosters through free agency is not a skill set they possess. Now I know that the Pollins were involved and Ernie was not here all 30 years, but he has had two full attempts to put the roster together.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Heres the problem
We don’t need a good player in the BOYD trade. In fact, a worse player probably brings more in return. This reminds me alot of last years trade. Ernie didn’t go all-in. If you are doing BOYD, don’t half ass it. Don’t cover yourself by getting a guy who may be useful. Get the best asset you can. This trade did not result in the best asset available. Because he refused to go all-in. As a result, it will limit our rebuilding process over the next two years.
You articulate quite well the difference between Grunfeld’s startegy and the one most popular here, at least in its purest form.
Grunfeld won’t be employing an “all-in” BOYD strategy, and I don’t get the feeling that’s Leonsis’s strategy either.
Number 8 of Leonsis’s 10 point plan for rebuilding:
8. Add veterans to the team via shorter term deals as free agents. Signing long-term, expensive deals for vets is very risky. We try to add vets to the mix for two year or three year deals. They fill in around our young core. They are very important for leadership, but they must complement the young core (NOT try to overtake them or be paid more than them). Identify and protect the core. Add veterans to complement them, not visa versa.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Well for one
The NBA is a different animal than the NHL. Two, this is an expensive deal, it is just not that long-term. No one would be against bringing in a veteran to help the young guys. We are against over paying for someone that is easily duplicated on the free agent market for much less. I see no reason we cannot go all-in on BOYD and provide a veteran locker room presence.
Again, all BOYD trades involve bad contracts. This one happens to involve a two-year commitment, but generally a better player.
Also, BOYD trades can be expensive. There’s only so many you can do before losing that cap space. So if adding good veteran talent is a priority – and it seems to be for the Wizards – then going all-in on BOYD can make that difficult.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
We need a young core
before we get to point 8.
by Palace of Good Play's Golden Toilet on Jun 25, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
unfortunately, national pundit
is a synonym for clueless. I would say Hollinger is probably the only national pundit who is consistently spot on about particular teams more often than not.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 26, 2010 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Um ... what?
The Wizards will trade Hinrich for a #1? Chicago just traded him WITH a #1. The Wizards just traded Haywood and Butler for … no #1. The Wizards traded Jamison for the last pick in the first round.
Possibly
next year when he’s an expiring contract, and a valuable one at that.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
he's pretty much dead. If not dead, dying.
He’s not the player he used to be, and he’s not getting any better
"Nothing"
You call locking up cap space nothing?
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 26, 2010 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
$17M is NOT a boatload
And it will NOT affect our cap flexibility in any way. It doesn’t matter whether we are $5M under the cap or $10M under the cap this season.
We are still $13M under the cap!
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
This is just flat out wrong.
Im not trying to attack you(Im really trying to be civil because mike asked us to be), but a lot of the things you say dont make sense.
If 17million is not a boatload, we should have just kept Caron…We are weak at the SF right now anyway. We could have signed a cheap backup PG…
Not so
and I really appreciate your being civil while being wrong. Trading Caron also got DS’s contract off the books and brought back cap space and trade exceptions. It’s not remotely comparable or relevant.
Don’t attack someone just because you don’t like what they are saying, especially when they are correct.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
alright dude
you can argue your point all you want. But now you’re just being a jerk. So stop.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
So.. It is important to get DS's contract off the books
Even though it is much smaller than Hinrich’s, but taking on Hinrich’s is fine because we got money to spend? WOW. Your argument makes Swiss Cheese look solid.
Hinrich will perform better on the court than Stevenson did the past couple seasons. You seem to be looking at trades strictly from a monetary/contract point of view.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Remember Bryon Russell?
And how he opted out of a small contract (something like $1.6 million), which gave the Wizards enough money to pursue Gil?
To say that adding $9 million this year and $8 million next year doesn’t “affect our cap flexibility in any way,” is just wrong. You may think that the Wizards wouldn’t be able to do anything with that space, either via signing a free agent or facilitating trades, but you are just guessing.
The Wizards have said so
We aren’t signing big name FA’s. Leonsis and Grunfeld have made that clear.
We have 11 players (after adding 5 players yesterday) and still have $13M in cap space!!!! We still have plenty of cap space. I’m not making this up…it’s true!
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
What is a BOYD trade required $14 million in cap space?
My last post on this subject — this is starting to feel like a conversation with my mom when she is in one of her moods.
Yes, big name FA's
which means that Lebron et al. were not on the radar. However, the smorgasbord of remaining FA’s in a tight economy are now less available due to us taking on an oversized contract.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
your right. but it was a two year deal so it does cost us a pick next year with the same strategy. i think peja and $13mm salary plus the #11 would have been good too.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
it’s $15 million. it could’ve been good, but I don’t see how it’s better.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, if my math is right
We’re only about 6 mil under the cap. You have to add in the rookies.
I agree.....
……especially considering many of us really don’t know what to expect from Gilbert this year. Gilbert could have more injuries or the fit with Wall may not work. Hinrich at least provides insurance and we have the space for him. In addition he can play the two as well as the one.
Some of you guys may disagree with me, but he is an upgrade over Foye. Furthermore, he is a good defender, and many of us know Gilbert couldn’t guard a rock.
Just some thoughts..
by Aquamaneastfish on Jun 25, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree we'd need another guard
I’d rather overpay Livingston a little then really overpay Hinrich but thats just me.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 25, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
You are right....
….I think we may still try and sign Livingston. According to Wilbon and others, Gilbert is being shopped….
by Aquamaneastfish on Jun 25, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
He was in 2007
but i dont know anymore…if he can play defense like he used to i will be at ease with the trade.
No one was more disappointed in Foye than I was..
Foye was awful as a PG and mediocre as a shooting guard. Maybe just a bad fit for Flip’s offense, but it would be hard for Hinrich to not be a significant upgrade.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Hinrich isnt much different than Foye
he might be a better defender but his main strength is that he is a spot up shooter
he’s a little better…he will dribble around in circles and pass it at the end where foye will put up a shot he usually misses
by les boulez bomber on Jun 25, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Livingston
was never coming back here once we got the Wall pick. He rightfully needs the best money and opportunity to revive his career and he was never going to get that here with Wall and Arenas under contract.
I wanted SL back badly but it wasn’t going to happen.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
Rook has posted several times about the possible places Livingston can go, and there are about three, with not a lot of money to go around. I’m not sure how you think its a sure thing that he wasn’t coming back.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
I think many are underestimating how good Livingston was for us
Someone will find a way to pay him. He’s a potentially elite PG on the open market.
As much as money, he wants opportunity, and that’s the one things we really can’t offer him.
by JonathanJoseph on Jun 25, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Elite?
Livingston? I don’t think so. Decent, maybe even a starter. Elite status is a long way off for SL. He needs to produce for a whole year first.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 26, 2010 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions
livingston is gone
i would bet that SL called is agent to get him out of DC when we got the first pick. he showed he can play and someone will pick him up. why should he stay here to play behind Wall? He’s a #4 pick! He wants to start!
personally I’m fine with KH. the deal is a semi-BOYD, cuz KH can still play (i.e. he’s no dead like Peja) and appears to be a professional who won’t pull a a gun or crap in someone’s shoe.
when we need a defensive stopper – KH plays. when we need scoring – bring on GA.
because it’s semi-BOYD we take on a bloated contract. we have the cap space and aren’t looking for DWADE or LaBron to sign here.
by the time this team is ready to add another big FA, KH will be gone.
i like the deal.
is granger really going to the NETS?
I like the Bullets
What about undrafted free agents?
We could grab Omar Samhan. That’d be nice.
The Washington Wizards: providing career scoring nights for unknown opposing bench players since 2004.
Yeah
Scottie Reynolds
Omar Samhan
Jerome Randle (rumor is we are getting him)
Sylvan Landesberg
Brian Zoubek
Oh and Kevin Prtichard PLEASE! No more of this garbage from Ernie.
...one of those guys who reads all the time but barely comments
by Juice over Whine on Jun 25, 2010 1:39 PM EDT reply actions
more like
scottie reynolds—no nba position…
omar samhan
jerome randle—keep him around he will eventually be a good backup PG
Sylven Landesburg—i think he will be a legit rotation guy
Zoubek—please, no.
Artisom Parahouski—A lot of people*cough*ROOK*cough* wanted us to draft him anyway
That 24 hour wait is frustrating
Most of the arguments I’ve seen against Kirk relate to the contract, which I do get. Aside from the cap cost, I think you’re going to get more from Kirk than some of you do. In the interest of full disclosure, I’ve been a fan of his for a long time – that doesn’t mean I don’t recognize weaknesses or understand what $9 mil means in the context of the NBA salary cap. Just wanted to make a couple of points in his favor.
1 – stats really don’t capture everything Kirk brings to the floor. He didn’t score a lot last year because he didn’t shoot a lot. You can choose to look at that as a negative, but it’s rather nice to have some role player guys on the team who are more concerned about winning than getting theirs. He’s one of the guys willing to do stuff that doesn’t show up.
2 – he’s always done what the org has asked as far as what role to play, what to work on, playing within the scheme, etc, and he’s done it without complaining. Playing in Vinny’s schemes the last couple of years, imo, hurt a guy like Kirk more than others. One, free style stuff isn’t his strong point. But two, he’s going to try to execute the scheme, no matter how bad it is. I’m not super familiar with Flip, but I think he has to be an improvement over Vinny.
3 – he is good with younger players. He’s not big on dealing with the media, but he will try to help a kid understand what’s going on within the game. Derrick has given him credit for his help several times, saying that even when Kirk was out with an injury Derrick’s rookie year and it was obvious Derrick was taking his job, Kirk still texted him with encouragement and tips for playing guys in the league. There was also a story about Kirk being the one who broke down a play on the board for Derrick at half time, when Vinny had some analogy about riding a bike to try to help him. Other guys have said that Kirk played a big role in running the team defense.
4 – he is tough and doesn’t back down when challenged. Yes, everyone at blogabull is into making jokes about the grit and glue, but there’s truth to it.
Like I said, I get the people who are down on the contract, the two years, think you can get all this for less. No point in arguing all that – but Kirk will contribute to the team, and he will do what he can to help Wall adjust to the NBA as quickly as possible. I even think there’s a good chance he’ll have a better offensive year this year – last year the team really struggled to adjust to the lack of Ben Gordon for a while, and Kirk played better down the stretch than in the first couple of months.
by wjb1492 on Jun 25, 2010 7:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Sorry taken me so long to chime in
I posted my draft thoughts on DC Landing Strip.
Overall, I have come to not totally hate the Hinrich trade, as I don’t think his contract really prevents us from doing anything and is thus only a nuisance to Leonsis who actually pays this deal. This year his money doesn’t matter, and next year it’s 8 mill, but we got 3 mill cash, so if luxury tax is a problem, that makes hinrich like 6 mill to Ted and co. That is still more than we need for his role, and I’d prefer a younger guy with upside, but 99% not what is going to stop us from making a move we really want to make. He will also be an expiring deal at that point anyway. Bare in mind that OKC gave up the #32 pick in their deal, and that is an extremely valuable pick in a deep draft where no wants to give guaranteed rookie deals. The pick we gave up is significantly less valuable. My biggest issue is that Hinrich will take time away from Young Sushi and likely stop us from signing Livingston. I like Hinrich next to Wall and as a 3rd guard, but not on a rebuilding team that needs to give young guys minutes.
The Seraphin pick is fine by me, as I don’t know much about him. Avery Bradley and Damion James would have been my choices, but I haven’t seen Seraphin play 1 second of basketball.
I would have taken Damion James over Booker, but the bigger issue is the trade to get Booker, unless the Wiz knew something we don’t – that someone else wanted Booker. It appears that we could have gotten the same guys or better at #30 and #35. Booker has no upside, but was the Clemson team when I watched him. His production says possible rotation guy to me, but never a starter. I think all picks should be either safe, or high upside, and Booker isn’t completely safe and doesn’t have a ton of upside. James would have been much safer, and with more upside in my opinion. James also plays a position where we have a lot more PT available.
Ndiaye I am sure I watched, as I watch most Georgetown games, but don’t remember at all. Stanley Robinson is the only guy available at #56 who I know and like.
One problem with counting the 3 mil like that
is that if we find a deal that we want to do that pushes us over the cap, we are bound by the 125% rule. So it really limits what we can do, regardless of the money we got back.
by Palace of Good Play's Golden Toilet on Jun 25, 2010 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
But it's all a matter of whether Ted is willing to dig into his own pockets
I am saying that 3 mill in luxury tax world is 2 mill, which is how i get heinrich to 6 mill from 8
Right, but I am saying
that being a further $2 mil under the cap is more valuable than having $3 mil in cash because it allows you to do unbalanced trades.
by Palace of Good Play's Golden Toilet on Jun 26, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
What a curve ball the draft was :S
Hi guys,
Kend3zy from Sydney Australia and first time posting here :). I have been a basketball “fan” since the early 90’s and stumbled on the Wizards in 99/00 when I started playing basketball myself.
What can I say about this draft, I am suprised with what we came away with in Seraphin, Booker and N’daiye as our picks after wall and I will sit on the fence with this one. I will not highlight the negatives of these guys but the positives, I like their attributes that they bring in toughness and athletically gifted it will be interesting to see what these guys will do to poor JaVale and Dray I think they will get a rude awakening.
On a final note; I noticed the rumors regarding Josh Childress, what do you guys think of adding Childress as our starting sf? if not Childress then what do you guys think of Matt Barnes? 8.8pts 5.5rbs 1.7ast decent shooter 48% from the field and 32% from the arc in 26 minutes for the Orlando magic. I am not to sure if these figures are right but he earned 1.6mil in his last year with orlando. I think he is a cheaper option then childress solid defender has a decent 3 point shot, what do you guys think?
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