The Wizards Next Move: John Wall is Making Things Difficult
by Jon Kelman on Jun 1, 2010 12:47 AM EDT
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Everyone thought that John Wall only brings happy thoughts, but he actually should be causing the Wiz quite a bit of stress on one front. I want to be clear that winning the draft lottery and the right to draft John Wall is the best thing to happen to this franchise in a long, long time. I believe, however, getting Wall creates a situation for the team that makes Ernie Grunfeld and co.'s job this offseason much more difficult than it would have been had we gotten any other pick. With any other pick , we would have continued with a 'regular' rebuilding process, but the Great Wall of Chinatown instantly makes us a playoff contender (read: better than the Nets) when paired with Gilbert Arenas and Andray Blatche. The general rule in sports is that you want to either be contending for a title, or completely rebuilding; and we suddenly find ourselves as one of those 'tweener' teams. Do we suddenly try to join the free agent bonanza or do we stay the course and rebuild? The easy answer is rebuilding, but we will likely not have a high lottery pick next year, and most of the spots/minutes on this team are already filled, leaving little room to develop more players. I know, know, I should stop and smell the roses, but hear me out after the jump
After drafting John Wall, I think the next easy decision for Ernie Grunfeld is to continue to try to trade Gil. I realize that his value could not be lower, but a team can not win a championship with him being paid almost $20 million unless King James miraculously decides to come here. The irony is that, outside of the salary cap space, in order to attract top talent we need to get Gil off of this franchise, as I don't think anyone wants to play with him. More importantly though, we need that contract off of the books, and do not need anything in return to make that a good move. The Knicks sound like the only possibility for a trade partner, and only if the right combination of desperation hits them in free agency.
The other easy 'decision' for the Wiz is to throw our hat into the ring for Lebron; As a wise man once told me, "You've got to be in it to win it." I do not think the Wiz should go after every free agent, just Lebron. I know our hatred runs deep, but he is the best player on the planet and would be a pleasure to watch and support as he teamed with John Wall. He instantly would make our team, or any other, a title contender and thanks to John Wall we at least have a tiny chance at him.
I will classify those no-brainers as highly unlikly and no happening, though, which brings me to the #1 offseason question of our salary cap space. The Wiz can either try for Amare Stoudemire, Chris Bosh, Carlos Boozer and Dirk Nowitzki (Joe Johnson and Dwayne Wade aren't coming), or try the BOYD strategy; I was 100% on board with BOYD until we got John Wall. My problem now is that we just don't have enough minutes to really develop or test any young players we pickup. Given that Gil isn't going anywhere, we already have Wall, Gil, and Blatche soaking up the majority of the minutes at 3 spots for at least 2 years. The moderately proven Javale McGee is also better-off getting the minutes at the 5 than anyone we can take in this draft from the BOYD strategy (Cole Aldrich would be a dream), so the only spot where a lot of minutes are available is at SF. I understand that there are plenty of bench minutes, but what would we do with say Avery Bradley when Gil, Wall, and Nick Young are around and we are in the running for a playoff spot? Bradley would get very little burn for 2 years, which is not good for player development. There are still some guys we could target in the draft, so BOYD is a legit possibility, but now that we cannot completely tank next year, there are a lot fewer options.
That begs the question then whether free agency is the answer. My take is that signing any of these guys I mentioned while still having Gil does not make us a championship team, and we should be working under that assumption that we are stuck with Gil for at least 2 more seasons. If we could get Bosh (26 yrs old), Amare (27), or Boozer (28) to sign a deal of over 3 years, then I would be interested, as they could contribute now and after the Arenas era. I do not want Dirk, as he is already 31 and may not contribute much in the post Arenas era.Wall is the first piece of our next championship team, and I think any of those other 3 gives us the 2nd of the 3 players we need. Superstars of this caliber are not usually so easily available, so the Wiz would be crazy to not at least try for one of these guys now that we have Wall.
I thus think the best option is to shoot for the stars in free agency. I know we all want Carmelo next year, but that's putting too many eggs in one basket. Even if we did get a big FA, maybe we could still ship off or buy out Gil and chase Carmelo....and hold on while I take a cold shower. In reality, Bosh is following Lebron or D-Wade, and Amare is either doing the same, or staying in Phoenix; why would Stat leave the established MVP-caliber PG already contending for titles to join the unproven PG hoping to lead a team back into the playoffs? That leaves Carlos Boozer as the only semi-possible free agent that could be a good signing, but he also already has an MVP-caliber PG. Realistically, I don't think we'll be able to get any of the top FAs, but we should at least dip our toe into the water. If we strikeout with the big guys in free-agency, then I'd go with BOYD.
Grunfeld is known for a win-now mentality, and Uncle Ted is best known for rebuilding the Caps, so it will be interesting to see how ardently the Wiz go after the big names, and this pursuit, or lack thereof, may prove almost as important as winning the draft lottery.
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The ONLY FA we should target is
LEBRON JAMES. Before I wrote please don’t bring him in, and I still believe that we shouldn’t (and that we can’t) but if we’re going to target ANY free agents it should be Lebron James. All the other free agents you mentioned are power forwards, and by all means they are great players (though I think Boozer is way over-rated) but you have to know that we’re still rebuilding. AND we don’t even know IF we really will be a “tweener” team. This year has to be a dead year not just in the sense that we’re rebuilding, but because we got to clear all the questions marks, and figure out where we are. Also, I don’t think we should trade Arenas away for no value, not at all. If we’re going to trade him away, we should let him bring his value back up and only then do we consider trading him away.
YOURE STUPID
YOU’RE A FOOL IF EVER THINK HE WILL COME HERE
by Dutch Masterson on Jun 3, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
assuming Arenas shows some sort of form
I would think trying to trade him for Vince Carter would be a good strategy consistent with rebuilding. Not sure if the Magic would do this given they would take on long term money, but I remember the Magic been touted as a trade destination last season amidst the gun incident and the close relationship b/w Arenas and their GM. We would then take on VC and decline his team option next year and have ample cap space
I put the trade into the ESPN Trade Machine
and it’s a perfect match
And I looked up VC’s contract and your right on the money, he has a team option for 2011/12 which we could decline and be free of that 100 million dollar mistake.
Orlando’s biggest problem in the end was the fact that they had no closer. Dwight in the half-court was atrocious and VC displayed one of the most forgettable choke jobs in recent play off history. Adding Arenas may shuffle their line up but it would give him the edge to possibly get over the Celtic hump and get back to the finals. I believe agent Se’s (6 in spanish?) would be on his best behavior if he was on a contender like that.
Vince would give us much more in terms of size and athleticism in the back court. Wall wouldn’t be forced into guarding bigger guards right away. Vince Carter next season could replicate the production of a Gilbert Arenas, and by replicate i mean actually play.
This considered, we’d have enough to throw a max deal at Lebron and have a dangerous teams in the East.
Wall
VC
Lebron
Blatche
McGee/ Varnado/ other center aquired with trade exceptions ( maybe a big shot blocker like Thabeet?)
thats an incredible deal for us
which means the Magic won’t do it
by John Park Williams on Jun 1, 2010 6:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it's a distinct possibility
Carter just established, beyond any doubt, that he’s not a playoff-caliber 2 guard. The whole point of acquiring him was to beat the Lakers in the finals, not stumble to defeat against a bunch of old geezers in the semis. It’s now obvious they need a reliable scorer who can create his own shot in that position. Carter, in a word, stank. The Magic is so desperate, there’s even talk about bringing Turkoglu back via a trade. So anything, including taking on Arenas (who’s always played very well against both Boston and LA), is on the table.
The Wizards’ taking Carter in return, as pointed out above, is a perfect example of BOYD. He’s a dead man walking, professionally speaking.
Something else that should be noted—that few people here have even mentioned—is that Wall, for whatever reason, may be a bust. Or at least not develop as quickly as expected. It’s by no means a given that he’s automatically going to make this pathetic team into an instant “tweener”. So the complete rebuild strategy makes the most sense from every standpoint.
BOYD
requires the Wizards to take on salary not actually off load it.
Carter just established, beyond any doubt, that he’s not a playoff-caliber 2 guard
And Gilbert is what exactly?
The best case scineraio for trading Gil is going to be like the trade that brought Ed Monix ( Woody Harrelson ) over to the tropics in Semi-Pro.
It is BOYD
if the Wiz got a pick out of the deal as well…..
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
hahaha yeah, we will pull the old Trade three #1's + plus Gil for a conditional #2
by John Park Williams on Jun 1, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
If Orlando were in a different division from us....
I would be in complete favor of a Gil for Carter swap. But to give the Magic a player who will make them a legit contender for the championship and further distance them from the rest of the competition in the SE Division (including ourselves) is a flawed strategy.
Orlando with Howard up front and a backcourt of Jameer, Gil and JJ would be a seriously dangerous team, most of all because Gil can do what Carter did not, which draw the type of defensive attention that will open up really easy shots for Lewis, Pietrus and Barnes.
If it turns out that the Magic have the terminal hots for Gil, however, I would want them to also take on Ross and Thornton and have them throw in Gortat, who is the exact counterpoint the Wiz need to team with JVM in the middle and a first rounder. We would obviously part with Carter after one season and pray for ’Melo (plausible) or Durant (unlikely) for the 2011-12 season.
I remain in favor of keeping GIl here for at least one season to see what happens, but if he is to be traded, there is no reason for the Wizards not to get maximum value in return.
The Point is to get rid of the Gil attitude and possible horrible influence.
If you wait a year, and Arenas continues to suck and is a cancer, no one will ever take the bait for him. It seems unlikely enough now. Orlando is hurting and VC looked a 100 years old in the playoffs so they might take a chance on Gil. Sounds like an idea worth exploring to me.
Again
If you get rid of one cancer, you probably need to get rid of all the knuckleheads. So goodbye Andray. I’m not sure what kind of message it sends if you only kick one dude to the curb for behaving badly while everyone else gets to stay on the team.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
by Sean Fagan on Jun 1, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I am not ready to buy Gil = cancer
not now, not yet…. and the last games he played, he was a full 180 from suckitude… I still see too much potential upside in Gil to risk trading him for peanuts particularly to the strongest team in the Wizzies division.
I don't think he is a cancer at all
I think we get too bent out of shape about Arenas in particular, and let the transgressions of our other players slide. Which sends a particularly bad message.
Now khrabb, if we were to receive Gortat in an Arenas trade…
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
I mentioned including Gortat earlier LOL
Guaranteed Wizards on TV in Poland (tho I am in States now).
Carter and Gortat for Gilbert and Q Ross and if I am EG then I begin to listen. Carter, Gortat and Barnes for Gilbert, Q Ross and Thornton and it’s a deal. But that is a pipedream.
YOU'RE STUPID TOO
YOU’RE AS STUPID AS THE PREVIOUS COMMENT
by Dutch Masterson on Jun 3, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
LBJ is a special case, and you have to make a run at him
1) We most definitely should make a run at LBJ. Although, it was widely speculated a few months back that Wall would sign with Leon Rose, LBJ’s agent, because William Wesley had joined Rose’s firm as a consultant, and Wall was supposedly tight with Wesley. Instead, Wall signed with Dan Fegan. This makes LBJ’s coming to even DC less likely.
2) No team is stupid enough to trade for Arenas. That means our only hope is that Arenas improves his efficiency and defense, and becomes a solid contributor.
3) I don’t know why people keep thinking Carmelo Anthony will be available next summer. He has one year left on his deal, but, this is the last summer of the current CBA. All indications are that the new CBA will call for shorter deals and less guaranteed money. Why would Melo risk getting considerably less money, when he could just get a contract extension with the Nuggets this summer for max money under the current CBA?
4) I hear what you are saying about being a “tweener” with John Wall. And I agree, we want to avoid being the Charlotte Bobcats for the next four years. However, I don’t think our role players are good enough for us to seriously compete even with Chris Bosh or Amare.
Bosh has had pretty good players surrounding him the past two seasons in Toronto, and they have gone no where. Obviously, Andrea Bargnani and Jose Calderon are not John Wall, but, there were enough players on that Toronto roster for them to make the playoffs the past two seasons. If they didn’t make the playoffs, why would Bosh/Wall suddenly be able to join the upper echelon of the conference?
I think Amare is better than Bosh. But, the Lakers’ series really showed that he struggles on D. Maybe he improves. I would make a run at him. Unless we really do tank, we are unlikely to get a better player in the lottery in the next couple years.
I do not want Boozer. I agree with Young Wook Lee in that Boozer is very, very overrated. He disappears in the playoffs, and is too short to play Center. Giving him max money would be stupid.
I agree, we don’t want Dirk.
by John Park Williams on Jun 1, 2010 7:13 AM EDT reply actions
Wall +2 Guys is What We Need
I agree that adding any of those big names only takes us into contention for a LOW playoff spot until Wall makes a leap, not contention with the Magic and Celtics just yet. That said, I think you need 3 stars to win a championship (ie Kobe, Gasol, Odom – Pierce, Garnett, Allen, Rondo), and Wall+Bosh/BoozerAmare gives us 2 of the 3. I am not Boozer’s biggest fan, and I know Carmelo is a huuuge leap and I just want to use him as an example here, but Boozer+Wall+Carmelo is a championship nucleus.
I also like Amare the best of the group, but think he is best-suited for the up-tempo Suns game because of his D. I think max money to Boozer is high, but it’s not going to take something close to max to get a player that caliber
I have to disagree
How is it that the Wizards right now, led by a 19-year old John Wall, have enough talent to make the playoffs, where the lineup/rotation is so set that there wouldn’t be playing time for another relatively high draft choice, yet the Wizards still need to find 2 “stars” to create a championship-caliber team? That all sounds very contradictory to me. If this team, as it stands now (with Wall drafted of course), is good enough to make the playoffs then that means both Arenas and Blatche are better than you give them credit.
In my humble opinion (and I can be very wrong), unless the Wizards are aggressive in free agency, they’re not good enough to make the playoffs next year. I also believe it’s too early to evaluate the full potential of Wall, Blatche, McGee and Young – all of whom may be good enough to make significant contributions to a championship team. It’s also difficult to evaluate Arenas to be honest, especially as a shooting guard, which may or may not be his ideal position in the NBA. And a team this inexperienced has plenty of available playing time to add another rookie through the BOYD strategy.
There will always be free agents available every offseason. This year James is the prize, next year it’s Anthony, and in 2012 Dwight Howard will be on the market. Wall is probably several years away – at least – from being good enough to lead a team to a championship. I just don’t see any reason to rush with big trades or free agent signings.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 1, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
there are not superstar free agents every offseason
In 2008, the marquee free agents were Elton Brand, Gilbert Arenas, and Corey Maguette, and look how that turned out.
Last summer, who was there? Hedo Turkoglu?Trevor Ariza?
As for next summer, sorry for repeating myself, but there is little to no chance that Carmelo Anthony will be a free agent. Think about it, the current CBA expires after this season, and the next CBA will no doubt call for less guaranteed money and shorter contracts. So why would Melo wait until the next CBA to sign a max contract, when he can get an extension now with Denver for max money?
by John Park Williams on Jun 1, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
who cares…the young kids were far more interesting and exciting to watch the the “veteran playoff team (lol)” we fielded at the beginning of the year.
if we can get james… or if we can trade arenas for another lottery pick (like the brand and #2 in a swap that was suggested…yes, those i would do.
otherwise, load up on draft picks and young talent, dont sign more FA (or even renew the guys we have) and let the kids play. sign someone (carmelo?) when we know what we have.
id rather see young guys who play hard night in and out that are competitive than the crap most teams put out!
by les boulez bomber on Jun 1, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
though behind closed doors…i hope we dont sign lebron…too much drama. wall seems to have a good head on his shoulders and would rather run with him
by les boulez bomber on Jun 1, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
fair points
But still it’s reasonable to argue that the Wizards will have more chances to in the future to sign a good free agent or make a blockbuster trade.
I’m all for signing Lebron James if he’s willing – it would be crazy not to – but it’s not like this is a do or die summer. And the brightest part of the Wizards future is still probably several years away, when Wall actually peaks.
The team as it stands now is not a playoff team. A BOYD trade can bring in another good young player, as can the draft next season.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 1, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Why would we want to sign someone before the CBA?
Less guaranteed money and shorter contracts sounds great to me!
I'd rather watch middling
Playoff teams for the next decade then be forced to root for LBJ. I can’t believe so many people are on board with this.
by ronoD nagrO on Jun 1, 2010 8:48 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 8 recs
i'm with you
i know the rational argument, he’s one of the 2 best players in the league, all that. great, no disagreement. but how much would it suck to have to ignore all of his BS and pretend you’re now ok with it? no thanks.
"how ironic - you came here with a mouse in a bottle, now YOU are the mouse in the bottle" - B.M. Smith
by little stevie colter on Jun 1, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I gotta agree
Lebron gives us a villain to root against. The Olympics have pretty much sucked since the collapse of the Soviet Union. I don’t hate the magic and the Celtics are running out of gas. Lebron anywhere in the East gives us a super villain for years to come.
by Elvin_is_my_Elvis on Jun 2, 2010 9:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I've watched middling playoff teams or worse
for my entire life. And I’m no spring chicken.
Yeah, it’d be tough to get over my addiction to the LBJ haterade. But I think a championship ring or two would bring me around…
by sierradave on Jun 1, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
No Boozer please
And Amare isn’t worth the max deal he’ll want either. As for the real big names, get serious.
The Wiz aren’t doing squat this year except introducing Wall to the NBA. They have the top pick, 3 in the top 35 (?). Play Arenas until someone takes him off our hands. Take Wall, try to move up and get a good center prospect, and admit the year is a lost cause. Save your big money for when the team is more attractive-Melo would be nice.
amare doesnt play defense or have a killer instinct…pass
by les boulez bomber on Jun 1, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
I live in Phoenix, and the way he’s been rebounding against LA is beyond pitiful. I’d rather have David Lee.
We're from the city with the highest murder rate in the country. Why WOULDN'T they call us the Bullets?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jun 2, 2010 2:44 AM EDT up reply actions
i would be dissapointed if we got boozer...hes pretty much in the mold of Antawn
And im tired of undersized PF’s.
Especially
Undersized PF’s that can’t play defense.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
We can be a playoff team...
Depending on the players we pick up this year. I think we are going to get more draft picks and have a team we call the Wiz-kids (like the Baby Bulls or Thunder) but I don’t think all of our young guys are going to be lottery picks so it wil be tough. This team lacks a real veteran presence though. and we need more big men.
We're a little like the Bobcats of a few years ago
They chose to acquire free agents, as I recall, but it didn’t work out so well. I would love to see the Wizards pick up some quality FA’s, but evidently Leonisis has chosen the “developing young talent” approach (a la the Thunder), and I can’t blame him. That prospect has got to be killing Arenas, though.
the Bobcats have never had a player like John Wall
Raymond Felton, Emeka Okafor, Adam Morrison, DJ Augustin, Gerald Henderson, none of those guys had the talent that John Wall has (or, at least we hope he has).
Neither did the Bobcats acquire marquee players. The OP proposed acquiring Chris Bosh or Amare Stoudamire, not Nazr Mohammed, Tyson Chandler, Stephen Jackson, Boris Diaw or Raja Bell.
I think Wall + Stoudamire makes the Wizards immediately a playoff team, and a threat to advance to round 2. Maybe we don’t win a championship, but the experience that John Wall would get from early playoff competition would be invaluable.
by John Park Williams on Jun 1, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Yea they picked successful guys
but half of them sucked…like Gerald, Ammo(BUM), DJ Augustin had a bad year…
The Wizards' biggest hole
For a long time now, the Wizards’ biggest need has been leadership. We will have plenty of talent— Blatche, McGee, Young, Thornton, Gilbert, and John Wall are all oozing with talent. What we’ve needed is the locker room presence to get everyone to work hard and pull together. Gilbert, Caron, and Antawn were not real leaders. They set a good example and nagged a little bit, but their t leadership couldn’t any of their teammates to do the necessary little things that make a winner. We need someone with the personality to force/inspire the Wiz kids to hit the weight room and Gilbert to play some D.
Any thoughts on where we can find a real leader? Alexander the Great was ready at 20, but I think John Wall will need a little extra time. We can try to get LeBron, but I doubt he comes here. If Grant Hill changes his mind and decides to opt out, I’d make him an offer. Trade for JKidd? Maybe the economy will suddenly shift into high gear, peace will break out in the Middle East, and we will find a miraculous solution to global warming, so Barack Obama will have free time to become a Wiz assistant coach.
I dont want JKidd
He has bad karma. He beat his wife, then immediately posed for an SI photo shoot with her and their son as a PR ploy to win back fans.
Kidd’s two trips to the finals were during the NBA Eastern Conference dark ages, when high schoolers had depleted the talent pool, teams averages were in the 80s, and Allen Iverson and Vince Carter were marketed by the NBA as “superstars” and featured every week on national tv, even though they played an unwatchable brand of basketball, IMHO.
by John Park Williams on Jun 1, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
There aren't many players with the credibility to really push their teammates
Kobe, LeBron, Kidd, Duncan, KG, Grant Hill, DWade. Maybe Chauncey, Pierce, Dwight Howard, Ray Allen, Nash. Almost none of those guys are gettable at any price. If we’re looking for someone to come here and really take a leadership role, there just aren’t many available options.
plus he's old
and i think all that veteran-rookie stuff is somewhat overrated. At this point most of these guys are grown men, unless they are coming out of highschool.
Exactly. Lots of NBA players are spoiled, dumb, and think they are better than they really are
I’m afraid some of ours are all three.
Best case scenario: Wall, Gilbert, and Flip are in perfect sync. Would even that be enough leadership to get all of our guys to play to their full potential? To practice and prepare like champions? To do the little things that win games? To forgo stats in order to win?
Grant Hill isn't going anywhere.
He turned down more money from bigger markets to play for Phoenix…rumor is he wants to retire in a Suns uniform.
We're from the city with the highest murder rate in the country. Why WOULDN'T they call us the Bullets?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jun 2, 2010 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions
It most certainly is--
Trading Arenas’ many remaining years for Carter’s one? It defines the term.
by Iwitness on Jun 1, 2010 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You are not understanding what BOYD is
It refers to taking on salary for one year (the dead) as long as it comes with picks and/or prospects.
by Mike Prada on Jun 1, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree - Hell no to Lebron
I wouldn’t even want to be a season ticket holder if Lebron was on our team.
Long-Time Wizard Fan
No Big Names
We’re not getting Lebron (and I don’t even know that I would want him). We’re not getting Wade. That’s it. None of the other guys are worth bringing in. Period. We need to build through the draft, raise our own talent, and rise to contention with a TEAM, and not a rent-a-player.
by CJHutch on Jun 1, 2010 10:40 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
the thing is, with Wall/Arenas/Blatche,
the odds of us picking in the Top-5 again are pretty slim. Although there is value later in the lottery, it is less of a sure thing. And since we are not finding a sucker to take Gilbert, we have four more seasons with him taking up $20M of our salary.
The issue then, is whether the Wizards are better off being a Top-12 team during the next four seasons, and then rebuild once Arenas is off the books, or being a lower-tiered team the next four seasons, and stockpiling lower-level lottery picks.
My feeling is, since we are stuck with Arenas for the next four seasons, we might as well be stuck with Amare Stoudamire for the next five.
by John Park Williams on Jun 1, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Throwing good money after bad
That’s what I call your strategy. We paid Gilbert we might as well pay more people to play with him we can (maybe) make the playoffs. Isn this the exact house of cards we just tore down? I could have sworn that most agreed we held onto aging pieces for way too long chasing after a championship with a .500 team. Now you want to forgoe cap space, flexibility for 5 years so we can win 42 games and get bounced in the first round year after year. IMO this is the definition of insanity.
1. There is no guantee that this core is good enough to make the playoffs as is. Too say that you have to assume WZA has no learning curve, Gilbert is healthy and able to play a full season (off the ball for the first time ever), Blatche can play a whole season the way he played during his 36 starts and we fill in lots of other cracks. Is that possible? Yes. Is it a bet you take as a franchise after everything you’ve been through? Heck no. I’d say there’s a better chance that core wins less than 30 games while losing 110-95 most nights. Defense matters.
This is the chance to tear it down and build it back better than before. In the NBA you are either contending for a title or you’re not. That middle ground territory of “making the playoffs” is only good for coaches and GMs trying to hold on to their jobs. We are not contending and would not be a contender even with Bosh. Tear it down and stop trying shortcuts.
Gilbert has zero value now. So the Org’s first step is to breathe value back into their most costly asset. First, welcome him back. Clear his slate so he is no longer a walking pariah. Next step is PT this year. If he is as talented as you say then he will be worth something after a comeback year. Juwan got traded, so could Gilbert. There is also a slight chance Stern and the union could return the one-player “amnesty cut” that was put in place after the lady CBA was signed.
In the meantime it’s important to acknowledge that you aren’t a contender. Stop dreaming. Once you do that a full rebuilding is a no-brainer. That means keeping payroll down to help the business side get healthy. It means more draft picks. Cap space isn’t just about FA’s it is also about the room to take on salary in trades. They may spend money this summer but it will be on one-year deals for the rights fits on the court and in the lockerroom.
by Jheiser3 on Jun 2, 2010 1:06 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry for typos, using an iTouch.
by Jheiser3 on Jun 2, 2010 1:09 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't think we are stuck with gil for the next 4 years unless he blows out his knee again
Plus signing Amare “because we’re already stuck with Arenas” sounds like doubling down on a horrible investment. Once again why do we need to keep on stockpiling Top-5’s?
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 1, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
in order to attract top talent...
“… we need to get Gil off of this franchise, as I don’t think anyone wants to play with him.”
I’m sorry, but these are the kind of comments that really bother me. Did I miss the link that surveyed all NBA players and the concensus was that no one wants to play with Arenas? JK, this is nothing personal against you but your opinion does not necessarily reflect that of the league’s. This is how stigmas of certain players get going – one journalist will report it “according to his sources” and everyone else just runs with it.
I would think a team with Arenas would be more attractive to FA’s than a team without him. I’m just talking purely from a basketball standpoint, not financially. Of course, this is just my opinion but I can’t see the logic in people’s thinking that a team with Arenas would be a downgrade rather than a plus.
JK, please explain how you came to that conclusion that no one wants to play with him.
by geechy_suede on Jun 1, 2010 10:55 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
basketball standpoint, yes
but GIl’s contract is somewhat of an albatross over this team…unless he starts playing well.
Don't worry
Unless Arenas becomes the superstar he once was on the cusp of becoming or we foolishly sign a big FA we won’t be anywhere near the playoffs next year. So we can continue building through the draft/lottery as planned.
Sorry, but rookie one-year collegate ninteen year old point guard Wall will not be enough to turn a team from bottom feeder to playoff team.
I'm not so sure
He may be good enough to accomplish just that. Look at what CP3 did in New Orleans — he more or less single-handedly carried a gutted squad to 38 wins. Wall seems to have that level of talent, so why can’t he replicate that? He even has Blatche to be his David West…hmm…and Speedy Claxton, the volume scoring PG playing near-starter minutes, could be improved upon by Arenas. Javale can be Chris Andersen, PJ Brown is…um…we’ll need to draft or sign him. Desmond Mason will be Thorton or Young.
"The Great Wall of Chinatown instantly makes us a playoff contender when paired with Gilbert Arenas and Andray Blatche."
Um, no.
A team with Gil and Blatche, plus Jamison and Butler, was cruising along nicely last season at a 25 to 30 win pace. Gil + Blatche + Wall = Playoffs? Doubtful in my opinion.
I know many people would like the rebuilding process to be over in 5 or 6 weeks, but it’s not going to go down like that.
by disgrunted on Jun 1, 2010 11:02 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Yep
I think we really overestimate how good he’ll be in his first year. Rookie point guards always have ar eally steep learning curve, and even Rose didn’t average .1 wins/48 minutes (the league average) until his sophomore year.
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by pantslessyoda1 on Jun 1, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
steep learning curve???
What about Tyreke Evans, Brandon Jennings(yes he had his struggles, but he was damn impressive, at least IMO), Curry, Jrue Holiday, Collison, Ty Lawson….
How many of those guys made the playoffs?
I know that is not your point, but think about it.
shine like bald head, smoke trees call me log head
That's an important point
First off, even if Wall is Tyreke-good right off the bat, that doesn’t guarantee all that many more wins.
Second, and more importantly, this is now a league flush with good point guard play. That wasn’t true 4 years ago… when Deron Williams and CP3 came out, they were the beginning of a point guard resurgence.
Could Wall be better than any of these guys? Sure, those are the projections. Is he going to be so MUCH better than them, in their sophomore campaigns, to help our team blow away the competition? Nah.
For my money, we stick with BOYD and buying/trading for picks for the 2010 season unless Lebron goes crazy and decides to relocate to the nations capital. We’ve still got a couple years of exciting but sucky basketball on the horizon.
I also agree with this
I’m not sure that adding one player, even if he is as great as John Wall is supposed to be, is going to solve all the problems of a team that lost 16 straight. Wall fixes one hole – we still need a starting SF, a consistent C, and some semblance of a bench. None of which we happen to possess right now.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
i agree
i agree – everybody assumes that Wall is going to be a great player. based on history, the odds are that he’ll be nothing more than a very good player. there’s more than an outside chance that he’ll just be ok. there is a slight chance that he will be great. i’d look into a trade his value right now is likely greater than it ever will be. of course, grunfeld would have to have a huge pair on him to do it. still, i don’t believe it’s possible to predict how great an nba player a relatively slight 19 year old will be based on a very short college career. it’s a roll of the dice no matter his vertical leaping ability. the only sure thing number ones are, and they aren’t remotely for sure, over 7 feet tall.
now if they aren’t going to trade him, is seems to be you have to throw all the money you have at james, and hope for a miracle. then you have wall, james, arenas, blatche, and maybe a miller type. you’re still missing a center, but even with a castaway, that’s a competitive team. they could wait ‘til next year and maybe get a big name, but that’s a maybe and arenas isn’t getting any younger.
there have been plenty of good one-and-done's...
Melo, Kevin Durant, Eric Gordon, OJ Mayo, Oden(oft-injured but good when playing), JJ Hickson…and the list goes on…
And recently, all of the highly drafted point gaurds have done well…with the exception of only a few….
Tyreke Evans, DRose, Curry, Flynn(probably the least efficient of them all), Jennings, Lawson, Collison…
I would add Holiday as well
Dude is gonna be good.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 2, 2010 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I reckon trying to trade the #1 pick in a deal to GSW for Steph Curry would be a nice
no way I would do that if I was the GM for GSW given you’d be trading a proven product for an unproven one, plus Leonsis has said they aint trading the #1 pick…
Whaaaa?
Curry proved he’s good this year. But trading the #1 pick for him? Last I checked, he’s still short, and that isn’t about to change. Dude can shoot the lights out and that will assure him a place in the league for over a decade, but he isn’t a franchise cornerstone.
FAs & J. Dubya
I’m not so sure Stoudemire or Boozer wouldn’t be attracted to playing in the East. In Boozer’s case he’d be an all-star again where out West he gets snubbed. Dragic is a nice point guard but he ain’t John Wall… Amar’e knows this. Nash is 15 years older than Wall by the way.
The Wizards have a young up & coming squad with a new committed owner in a world class city. Seriously, there is a lot to work with here.
Gil Analysis
Someone, I think Prada, wrote a post a while back which analyzed the problems with the Wizards of the past few years (it may have been limited to the seasons when Gil was playing, not sure) The outcome of that statistically based research was that the Wizards failed because of a lack of depth, not a lack of production from starters.
What’s interesting is that many posters seems to think Gil can’t be part of a contender simply because the Wizards never were. In my opinion, the lack of production from Jamison, Haywood, and Caron after leaving the Wizards demonstrates that Gil is even better than he was given credit for and not only was the Wizards problem a lack of depth, but also a lack of starting talent.
Given that, and the fact that John Wall is an unproven NBA player, I’m not writing off Gil yet. If there is only one or two teams that would fathom trading for Gil (New York and Orlando) than, ironically, I’d say the Wizard with the most upside is not McGee or Wall, but Gilbert Arenas. How about that?!
Ah, got it.
Bwoods, if you see this and have an opinion on how Gil fits in and whether or not he could be part of a contending team in DC, I’d be very interested.
gil is being embraced and given a fresh start and i think he will work out fine. still if we could trade him for someone half as good offensively that plays defense and gets us a pick, id take it
by les boulez bomber on Jun 1, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
since you asked
My own opinion (at this point) is that the Wiz simply must keep Arenas and (1) hope Arenas’s last few weeks before everything went up in flames was indicative of the bounce back he is capable of and (2) do their best to make Wall/Arenas work, if they want their best chance to contend within the next 3 or so years. I don’t yet have an opinion on the pieces fitting together from a floor-chemistry standpoint, but there is definite reason for optimism on offense. Gil has not been asked to be a catch-and-shoot guy, but skill-wise I suspect he would make a good one. I’d be curious as to any data on that front. Plus, Gil isn’t nearly so much of a ball-dominator, I think, as he is thought of as. Whether you can pair those two together in a backcourt and survive defensively is another matter.
Leaving aside fit, though, Arenas can produce at a high level. Even if he doesn’t come all the way back to his peak, you are looking at a potentially well-above average player that you already have on the roster. Those guys just aren’t that easy to come by, at any price. If you shed his contract, is it probable that you can use that money to sign guys who are more productive? Maybe, but I doubt it.
Deleting legitimate talent from a bad team is a step backward, not forward. Arenas is the type of player another team trades for at under (basketball) value to give them a big boost. Hang on to the talent you have and add as much more as you can, and worry about chemistry later.
So first you state that the reason we weren't a contender was bench depth not starter production
Then you say if only Haywood, caron, and AJ were better we would have won? Consistency? Look those guys were older and went to new teams with different roles so it’s no suprise they’re production dropped. To say that proves they were holding Gilbert down is kinda silly IMO. What we do know, is that AJ and CB have taken us to the playoffs without Arenas. Arenas never took us anywhere without AJ and CB/LH. Gilbert shouldn’t be written off but he shouldn’t be elevated to something he wasn’t. He can go on and be part of a contender but all we know is he hasn’t done it yet and he is better in the regular season than he is in the playoffs.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 1, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
However, there IS a pattern of players getting better playing with Arenas
and then fading into mediocrity when they leave (or when Arenas was injured)….
Jarred Jeffries
Larry Hughes
DeShawn Stevenson
And now, even though it’s a small sample size, you can add Jamison and Butler to the list…
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I respectfully disagree
I don’t see any pattern. Caron and AJ produced more for the Wiz with Gil out. They went to better teams and were asked to become role players. Of course their production dipped. AJ was expected to float at the 3 point line and shoot 3’s.
Stevenson has just been epically sucking for years now. I don’t see Arenas affecting that.
JJ was just a bum. Period. He shouldnever have been a starter.
Larry Hughes was just a bad fit alongside Lebron and he permanently injured his shooting hand after leaving us.
I think you are making alot of apples to oranges comparisons when basically all these players suffered serious injuries or went to a team where they were asked to do less as opposed to taking any shot they like. Another aspect is Eddie Jordan. Maybe it has less to do with Arenas and more to do with EJ’s offense. Again AJ, CB, and BH led us to the playoffs without Gil. They even had an improved record over the year before when they had Gil. MJ was much worse as a Wizard. Was it because he was without Pippen or because he got older and his skills deteriorated? There is alot to take into account so to make a blatant statement about some pattern is a gross oversimplification IMO.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 1, 2010 2:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I do think it is clear he didn't make players worse
For reasons Rook cited.
Making them better? I think he clearly makes some kinds of players better and some kinds worse. Either way, the “he doesn’t make his teammates better” criticism is wrong.
I'm not trying to say he makes people worse
I was just pointing out that I don’t know if there is evidence that people are worse without him. Sure in the most oversimplified sense some people production dipped but you gotta take all the factors into account. Some of those guys suffered injuries(DS, LH). Also alot of them went to better teams where they were asked to do less. You have to think about fit as well. Boykins produced alot this year but only because there was no other PG on the roster. Shades of Jeffries. Roster construction created opportunites for him to produce. If he went to the Suns instead he wouldn’t make it off the bench. Plus your basically comparing number from 4 years ago. Alot of stuff can happen in 4 years so it’s not surprising some guys like AJ dropped off.
I was pointing out there was evidence AJ, CB, and BH can produce at high level and make the playoffs for the Wiz without Gil. Production is matter of minutes, fit, and shots. I don’t think CB got better cuz Arenas was out(which he did production wise as a Wiz) I just think he got bumped up the offensive hierarchy. Then when he went to Dallas he got bumped down. Same with AJ. I’m not really taking a stance in does he make teamates better or worse. I just found those examples not very compelling and in certain instances the examples Rook gave would, to me, diminish the “those guys were only good because of Arenas” argument. So I respectfully disagreed with the pattern contention.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 1, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, fair enough
I’m with you, though I’m probably leaning more to Rook’s POV than the opposite. If Rook’s left and the “he makes them worse” argument is right, I’m slightly left of center.
Also CB and AJ's 2 best years in the league came as Wizards WITHOUT Arenas.
Came as Wizards WITHOUT Arenas. To say they “faded into mediocrity” when he got injured is simply untrue. Their 2 best years came when he was shelved. Not to mention the team improved in wins his first year he was injured. The 2nd best year we had with the “Big 3” actually came with Gil on the shelf.
That being said I don’t think he made people worse. It was just horrible logic based on wrong facts to say AJ and CB showed a trend of fading into mediocrity without Arenas based on their performances with their new team. But that works both ways. The reason they posted the best numbers of their career WITHOUT Arenas is simply because they were asked to take more shots and do more, not because Arenas was holding them down. When Gil is there they are expected to do less so they put up lesser numbers. When they go to other teams and become role players their production dips.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 1, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Not exactly what I said.
What I believe I said, or at least I meant to say, is that I read an article on this site based on statistical analysis that showed a lot of the Wizards losses in recent years were caused by lack of depth (If you have done any other analysis, I would be interested in reading it – I haven’t done any myself other than being an observant fan. I liked this article because it was well written and drew a conclusion that, while unexpected to most of us, did make sense.)
Then I stated that perhaps some of the starters were in fact not that great to begin with since their production dropped off when they went and played with people like LeBron James, Jason Kidd, and Dirk. Now Gilbert hasn’t gone to play anywhere else, so who knows how he would do on another team, but what I tried to suggest in the end, perhaps not clearly, is that Gilbert may have been making all of those players better, that he is still a very good player, and that he could be a piece of a contender.
I looked on bwoods recent posts to see if I could find the article and get your take, but I wasn’t able to find it.
Sorry if I was a bit rude
I think he is still a good(possibly great) player assuming he makes the transistion and can stay healthy for a season. Gilbert could have been making those players better I just disagreed with how you got there I guess. Just in general going by production in different situations is problematic. i.e. Ray Allen’s numbers dipped when he joined the Celtics but that doesn’t mean his teamates in Seattle made him better; same with Rasheed in Portland and then Detroit. Caron played better as a Wizard without Gil but I certainly wouldn’t say that Gil was making him worse. He just got more opportunity and was asked to do more. Likewise all those guys had their production drop from their “With Arenas” levels and there “Without Arenas level(with the Wiz)” so I’m not sure we can draw a causal relationship with Arenas. So many factors at play. I just disagree with that reasoning alot more than the conclusion. Again sorry if I was rude.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 1, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
regardless, the knock on arenas is that he commands a HUGE salary and has BARELY played in three years.
by les boulez bomber on Jun 1, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Gilbert is underrated
The way he’s talked about, you’d think he had an awful year last year. But statistically it was great. He put up 23 and 7. He might not be worth 20 mil a year, but he shouldn’t be traded away for nothing
by zl on Jun 1, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
but he only played in a handful of games- just like he did the year before- just like he did the year before …
by les boulez bomber on Jun 1, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a positive AND a negative.
by Jheiser3 on Jun 2, 2010 1:14 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
gil
i’m surprised by all this negativity about areana’s play….. not surprisingly, he struggled early on, but by the end of his season i thought it was pretty clear that he was getting it back. he was starting to drive to the basket with considerable success and daring, and he certainly proved he can pass the ball. he still played defense like his feet where stuck in mud, but that wasn’t a change. if his knee holds up i predict a big year for him, especially if he gets help from wall/free agents.
not sure i agree with this. at all.
the lack of production from Jamison, Haywood, and Caron after leaving the Wizards demonstrates that Gil is even better than he was given credit for and not only was the Wizards problem a lack of depth, but also a lack of starting talent.
they put up the same numbers when they were on the wiz and gil was hurt. Gil had the ball 80%m of the time in Flip’s offense. Of course his numbers wont fall off. If Gil made these guys so much better than why were they never anything better than a team that gets into the playoffs but everyone knows isnt going anywhere??? They never won 50 games. There are some teams that do that EVERY YEAR. Gil is good, but not a franchise player. Teams dont win championships with gunners at point.
It's completely untrue anyways
AJ and CB had their 2 best years in the league on the Wizards WITHOUT Arenas. They thrived in his injury absence.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 2, 2010 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions
How about Paul Pierce?
He brings championship experience, some leadership, and is an end of game finisher to complement Gil.
Wall
Arenas
Pierce
Blatch
McGee
After a year we drop him and target Durant.
I hear ya...
But he would be a one year rental just to get us to the playoffs. A shallow playoff run will be needed to convince a 2011 free agent that we’re not years away from a championship.
On fast breaks we’d have Wall dishing to Blatche or McGee for dunks and strong finishes.
In the half court set we’d have Gil and Pierce who can both score on anyone one-on-one.
by LiveByMySword on Jun 1, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
You might be right...
But they’re losing Ray Allen, and they’re way over the cap. If they beat LA, it might be time for them to break it all up and start rebuilding around Rondo.
by LiveByMySword on Jun 1, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it is 10 times more likely they resign Allen
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 1, 2010 1:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Perhaps...
Then they’d only be 25 million over the cap.
by LiveByMySword on Jun 1, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Boston would never trade him, and if they did trade him
They certainly wouldn’t trade him to a rebuilding team like the Wizards. That would be seen as a huge stab in the back and could affect their ability to draw free agents for a long time to come.
Yeah, this scenario is hilarious
“Hey Paul, we know you’ve been a lifetime Celtic and one of our most accomplished and popular players of all time and we know you helped bring us a championship (maybe two) after sticking it out and suffering with us all those years…but we’re going to trade you to a rebuilding team down the road, a team that just had the worst season of any franchise in pro sports history. Oh, but don’t worry, they only want you for one year so that you can help attract free agents next year before they throw you on the scrap heap. See you at your hall of fame ceremony!”
by MR on Jun 1, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention that the entire situation
gives me nightmare flashbacks to when Payton played on a rebuilding Celtics team. Old, entitled stars are NEVER good on rebuilding teams. Especially those who have as high an opinion of their playing ability like Pierce.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
This whole post reeks of fairytale trades
To get someone to take Gil right now would require us to give up multiple picks which would kill any rebuilding effort before it ever got started.
i disagree completely. if boston makes the decision to trade him, the respectful thing to do is trade him to someplace that is competitive. and i think there could be an argument that the wizzards with wall arenas pierce and blatche could be competitive. not a strong one, but there are few options (miami?)
still i think boston beats LA and the celtics do not break up a winning formula nor trade their franchise player until they at least get beat on the court at full strength
id rather rebuild through the draft and land one over the top free agent when we get there just before we have to resign all that young talent
by les boulez bomber on Jun 1, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
This article is a good conversation starter
But I really disagree with the huge assumptions it is based on.
It is far from a sure thing that Arenas, Wall, and AB makes us a playoff team. Wall hasn’t been drafted yet and Gil is switching positions. We have no idea how that team will look. Plus Gil was supposed to be one of the main pieces of a playoff team the last 3 years and he wasn’t able to go. Should we see if the 4th time is the charm?
You state that IF this team makes the playoffs we will be in a huge dilemna because we won’t have a high lottery pick next year. So what? The hardest part of rebuilding is drafting that transcendent player. We can check that off. The rest is filling in the lesser players which can easily be found in the late lottery and beyond. We have Batman we need Robins now. Amare, Joe Johnson, Boozer all were outside of the top 5. 2 out of the 3 guys you say are gonna lead us to the playoffs(Oh no not that!!) were second round draft picks. We just need some secondary players that complement Wall and that can come from outside the top 5 picks. So Playoffs are no big deal.
I don’t see how the Wall pick changed anything for the FO. It just made the prospect of rebuilding that much more hopeful. Good conversation starter though.
People advocate Amare and Boozer but don’t we already have a pretty good PF who actually plays defense? Those guys both(and Bosh too) need a big beefy Center to bang down low for them. Not seeing one of those guys on the roster. I’m not sure building a team where the 4 best players are 2 PG’s and 2 PF’s is all that great of an idea. Plus Wall will need a couple season before he is ready to lead us anywhere and pretty much anyone we sign will be declining just as Wall arrived.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 1, 2010 12:39 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Well, let’s be optimistic rather than all non-homer-like. If Wall and Blatche are going to be THAT good, then they are the two stars you need to be a playoff team. Also optimistically, if Gil returns to his former greatness, then all of a sudden we have a contending playoff team. All you need is a reliable center. Enter: Brendan Haywood. We sign him as a free agent, and re-sign Mike Miller for depth, and you’re looking pretty good:
Wall (all-star)
Arenas (all-star)
Mike Miller (glue)
Blatche (all-star)
Haywood (post defender)
One crazy fan’s view.
Mike Miller isn't aggresive enough
The only reason he shoots such a high 3point % is because he only shoots them when he’s completely wide open. To me, he disappears in games. I don’t think we’d be getting bang for our buck. And if we’re a rebuilding team we have to put McGee on the floor and see what he’s got — so no to Haywood.
by LiveByMySword on Jun 1, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with not resigning Haywood.
I also think Miller would be a fine 3 in a starting lineup that also includes Wall, Arenas, Blatche and McGee. Miller’s frustrating capacity to disappear in games was mostly an issue when the Wizards needed him to play a large offensive role, due to trades or injuries. Miller is a glue guy as Tbonebullets suggested. He’s best when he’s the 4th or 5th option in the offense.
The Wizards can benefit from someone like that more than a shoot first player like Thornton, who probably is better coming off the bench.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 1, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Then who plays center? The pretext is (for entertainment purposes only) that we could be a strong playoff team next year. But that would certainly not be the case with McGee at center from what I’ve seen. Dude just needs to hit the books (and the bricks) more. A playoff-caliber center is actually pretty hard to find — otherwise, you’re simply not going to BE in the playoffs.
this season isn't about making the playoffs
McGee should play center. They should also add another one through the draft or through free agency or both. But committing to the kind of contract that Haywood should be able to get is the wrong approach.
We need to give this young, rebuilding team the patience it needs to grow into a great team. That doesn’t mean giving out big, long contracts to fill in every hole on the roster.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 1, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i love mike miller as a role player
Of course he’s not a first or second option, but if you can shoot 50% from three, you’re a great role player. Who cares if he was wide open? If anything, that shows he has a high basketball IQ and has good shot selection. Would you prefer he take contested shots?
by zl on Jun 1, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Im not totally opposed to Miller
But he should take a pay cut. To me he’s not worth 10 Mill.
by LiveByMySword on Jun 1, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd give him a bit more then Thornton would make
4 Mill… maybe 5 mill.
by LiveByMySword on Jun 1, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Unless the Wiz throw a boatload of money at him
Miller isn’t coming back. He has played on crappy rebuilding teams his entire career. Why play out the last few years of his career on another crappy rebuilding team?
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
Blatche can't go 30 games
without getting into trouble. You want to make him an allstar?
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
Well, because I don’t think the topic itself is based on realism, but rather fandom. More likely Wall has a good rookie season, but shoots really poorly; Arenas shows his knee won’t let him dominate any more; and Blatche is a mental mess; Nick Young can’t learn the plays; McGee doesn’t really want to learn the plays even though he arguably could. And we end up in the lottery again. Maybe we get a decent player (we got REALLY lucky this year) out of it even though it will be a weak draft, which is probably the better path to winning than signing any type of free agent.
Personally, I’d consider trading Blatche, McGee, or both, if it meant collecting more lottery picks THIS year. I really have little faith in them, but enough armchair analysts seem to think they have value to consider the trade.
Sorry
I should have played closer attention to the “one crazy fan’s view” part of the post.
I’m disincline to think that the dream scenario will happen – in large part due to the expectations we had coming into last year. If Butler and Jamison crapped out on us, two professionals – I hesitate to think that would change when placing responsibility on the shoulders of AB/NY/JM.
Every year during the player evaluations I see Mike/Rook et al try to put the best spin possible on their in-year performance. NY was making strides at the end of the year…..McGee showed brief flashes. Now its their role as analysts/Bullets fans to try and keep morale high and demonstrate that there is light at the end of the tunnel. However, I for one think that if a player like NY doesn’t get it by now, he doesn’t get it. If Blatche continues to have run ins with authority, well then its probably going to happen again. If McGee doesn’t want to learn how to play positional defense – its most likely not happening.
These guys livelihoods depend on learning to play better basketball. NY is costing himself money by not improving. It seems farfetched to believe that he hasn’t made an honest effort to actually improve. It just might be beyond his and McGee’s acumen to do so.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
as another guy said, the NBA GM-game is all about balancing risk: you can always see the upside, but there’s the downside, too, to any trade or pick. That’s why it’s often foolish to lock away your options by signing a player to a huge free agent contract, when the downside can always happen (example: Gil did that to us after we signed him). But in order to be great, you’ve got to take some risk (L.A. did it by deciding not to trade Kobe when his value was wavering; Boston did it by trading what looked to be a lot for a then-maybe over-the-hill Garnett). So I can see why you would want to hold on to Blatche (who could mature, like Rasheed Wallace did) and McGee (who could blossom after several years, like Jermaine O’neil did). But at the same time, if you can find a better prospect through a trade or draft, you gotta do it.
I agree with what you’re saying about Nick Young; he had his opportunity to show he’s a starting caliber NBA player, and didn’t do it. The “playing better with him” stats don’t show the real picture, imo.
declaring those 3 allstars a little early arent you?
I dont think Gil can be an all-star 2 gaurd. He always had the rock in his hands. Unless people dont care that opposing 2 gaurds will score AT LEAST as much as he does…then he might go to the all star game. Actually, i take that back. GIl was made out to be a terrible criminal last year(even though he’s not. I dont like his game, but hes a good guy.)
People love a redemption story
I wouldn’t be surprised if Gil comes back and averages 25 points that he would get some All-Star consideration… I mean, who are the fans going to vote for?
Dwyane Wade will almost certainly be voted in as a starting guard again… but who else?
Allan (thank god the Fans can’t vote for him any more) Iverson?
Vince (I completely go invisible in the Playoffs) Carter?
Joe Johnson and Ray Allen will get some votes…
But Gil could get the “redemption” vote if he comes back strong – saying all the right things….
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Interesting Question
First, I don’t want Lebron James. After what he did three years ago (renting out a club and having JZ come down and diss the Wizards and Washington) I want no parts of him here. I will gain a lot more pleasure in watching the Wizards beat him than him playing for the Wizards.
I don’t think Wizards will go after a big name Free Agent because the new owner keeps saying he wants to build through the draft. It seems he’s spooked off of free agents because of what happen with his first big FA with the Caps. However, if the Wiz go for a free agent the logical choose to me is Rudy Gay. He’s young, big and “could” be a star. You put the ball in Wall’s hands and see if Wall can make Rudy Gay better. I think Blatch and McGee should be our power forward and center for the next 10 years. You put Wall, Gil, Gay, McGee and Blatch on the floor and tell them to run like Phoenix does and see what happens.
Memphis really wants to resign Gay
If I could have one player of this free agent class, though, it would probably be Gay. A potential lineup of Wall, Arenas, Gay, Blatche, and Mcgee/draft pick makes me salivate. Plus we’d probably be able to sign some good role players with our remaining cap space. We can only hope
by zl on Jun 1, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
From Chris Ford's chat today.
He’s making my case.
Sherlock (VA)
Any chance for the wizards becoming a player in the free agency?
Chad Ford
(1:24 PM)
Getting John Wall helps tremendously. I think they could make a run at Rudy Gay.
C'mon Mike
First Wallamania, now Gayamania. Think of the google hits.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
by Sean Fagan on Jun 1, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Crazy question/ crazy trade idea
How bad would Minnisota like to pair Wall with Flynn? Since they like point guards so much, they’d basically have a two-point guard backcourt with Wall being the taller defender of 2-guards.
Could we get:
Rubio
2010 picks #4,16,23
2011 top ten protected first round pick
The difference for us would be the difference between wall and rubio. For our risk we get four extra first round draft picks.
Rubio doesn’t want to play in Minn, but DC might make him happy.
I know I’m committing the mortal sin of giving away Wall. But in reality, our hopes may be too high for this kid.
starting five:
Rubio
Arenas
2010 #4 pick (W. Johnson)
Blatche
McGee
That’s how you rebuild a team
No
because neither Grunfeld or Kahn are going to admit they were wrong. No GM has a a redo on trades. And why would Minny want ANOTHER PG?
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
Actually
I think it works, but not for Rubio. I think Minny will ship us K. Love and maybe Jefferson in exchange for Wall… Just so they can complete Kahn’s obvious dream of eventually fielding an all-PG starting 5.
:)
That would be amazing!
Thought I don’t want Jefferson AND Love, Minny has had zero luck playing those two together.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
If he really said that
The kid is a douche. He isnt entitled to say that BS. And even if he DIDNT say that, theres NO WAY id trade Wall for Duchio! I dont know what is so appealing about him. He’s pretty much an uglier, spanish version of Jayson “white chocolate” Williams. minus the jumper
Because it's WALL
.. And everyone is salavating over him.
Minn drafted like three point guards last year and everyone asked why… who knows why they’re so infatuated with pgs but I’m sure they’d be all ears at the possibility of a so called “can’t miss” prospect.
And the Wizards PR team could put a spin on the story saying Grunfeild knew Rubio wouldn’t play that year and know we get him ready to play and more pieces. They say he should be hailed as a genius.
Not bad for us. A few weeks ago we were looking at the 5th pick.
I think most pundits have put to rest
whether playing Rubio and Flynn was either possible or a good idea. It turns out that it ruffled both players feathers, to the degree where Rubio signed a contract to keep him OUT of the NBA for three years. I can’t imagine either John Wall or Jonny Flynn would be happy with a situation where they wouldn’t be the presumptive starter. You have to look at this trade from both sides – why would Minny completely mortgage their future for one player who may or may not be a superstar? They already have enough issues with figuring out the PF/C problem and attempting to lure Rubio over to the US. More importantly, Rubio can’t come over for at least another year, so why would trade the sure thing for something that may or may not come over in a few years time?
You’re asking Kahn to basically sell the farm, something that I don’t think he is willing to do. There are smart trades and there are pipe dreams. Unfortunately, I think that this falls into the latter category.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
Your right, a guy can dream can't he...
But I read somewhere last week that Minn was open to giving up the #4, 16, and 23 to Philly for the #2 pick.
We’d be giving them the #1 pick and also taking Rubio off there hands who I don’t think will ever play for them anyway. I threw the 2011 first rounder in just in case they were desperate.
Then they could trade Flynn to Philly for the # 2 pick.
Buy giving up Rubio, they’d then have Wall and Turner, as opposed to Flynn and Turner and Rubio taunting them from overseas.
Flynn would be an upgrade over Holiday for Philly.
by LiveByMySword on Jun 1, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Holiday is better than Flynn
Holiday was very good down the stretch this season, and he’s much younger.
I agree...
And i dont want Rubio anyway…at all…i wouldnt even WANT to trade Gil for him, even though you’d have too if you could.
What about...
Matt Barnes? I know he is opting out of his contract and wants to stay in Orlando, but he is a phenominal defender and was brought to Orlando to do just that. We could use some good perimeter defense. I’m also in South Africa at the moment and wasn’t able to catch the orlando series, so not sure if he choked. thoughts?
If he's cheap, sure
I’m still annoyed the Wizards didn’t sign him in 2008 with the money Gil gave back.
by Mike Prada on Jun 1, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Honestly
I dont believe that Gil “gave” them money back. Maybe he opted to sign a lesser contract, but I think PR just spun it to make Gil look good.
They could have easily payed him under the table in cash, at least i think they could.
That would be illegal, so I doubt it
They could have easily payed him under the table in cash, at least i think they could.
I dont believe that Gil "gave" them money back. Maybe he opted to sign a lesser contract
I don’t see the distinction. They offered him more. He took less.
by MR on Jun 2, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
What about Yao?
Yoa Ming has a player option this coming season. If he’s healthy would we want him? He might like playing in Chinatown and his Chinese handlers might prefer the DC market for him.
Wall
Arenas
Thorton/Miller
Blatche
Ming
On second thought maybe he’s not quick enough to keep up with Wall.
Thoughts?
He is going to stay in Houston until his contract is up in 2011 … Yao & Houston will move on so he could end up in China Town with Wall
Durant is restricted so we Could go after another DMV hometown star Carmelo Antony 2011
With our Youngins meshing together and maturing another year plus 2011 top 10 pick … the 2011 offseason would be Prime for us to make move for Carmelo & Yao
Great Wall
Agent Zero
MELO
7day Dre
YAO
i would try and pickup an extra lotto 1st for Patric Patterson this year
Dude is a PROs PRO
If Yao gets healthy
which is really doubtful (foot injuries on big men… those don’t go away), that would be the sickest of sick lineups.
I'm not sure that the addition of Wall makes this a playoff-caliber team
The only way it’s happening is if he’s a miraculously good distributor of the ball, consistently getting guys open looks in the right spots. I dream of Wall running pick & rolls with McGee, a la Chris Paul & Tyson Chandler; but alas, it’s only a dream. With Saunders’ offense, the success of the team will depend on the ability of each player to fill a certain role and play within that role, and I don’t know if this is that kind of team. Arenas was already headed down that path in the few games he played, so surprisingly, I don’t think he’s the biggest concern in that respect. But ultimately, whether this is a playoff team or not depends on a lot more than John Wall.
Regarding free agents: the more I think about it, the less attractive the FA market (and future markets) looks. I like Bosh a lot, but all the reports are that he’ll follow Wade or James wherever they go, and they’re not coming to D.C. Carmelo is an inconsistent player, and I’d rather they not pursue him. Amare Stoudamire is beyond overrated, and proved his mettle (or lack thereof) against the Lakers. Maybe it’s time to focus exclusively on building through young talent.
Watching the Celtics made me so excited for Wall-AB
Watching Garnett-rondo run that pinch post play where Garnett catches the ball at the Elbow and either rises up for a J or gives the handoff to Rondo. I think Wall-AB can run that to perfection. They ran that to death against Cleveland and all I could think about was how well we could run that next year.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 1, 2010 4:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That would be pretty cool
But I’m dreaming of Wall making something of McGee’s athleticism and quickness. McGee could actually keep up with him on fast breaks – a rare quality for a big man. If McGee could become a 15 to 20 ppg scorer, it could change the dynamic of the team so much. A really great PG is one who can improve everyone around him, and I’m hoping against hope that Wall is that guy.
Draft
after we draft wall for the 30th pick should we go after Devin Ebanks? He is a SF who could be usefull.
also
Ebanks was a high ceiling b/c he’s one of the more athletic SFs, but after doing more reading and seeing interviews I do like Quincy Pondexter at 30 as well. Pondexter isn’t as athletic as Ebanks and is older, but he’s much more mature and well spoken, which makes me like him more.
Should we sign Josh Howard?
by rayallenisaballer on Jun 1, 2010 4:50 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
only if he's really cheap
otherwise, …knee injury … fading all-star … probably past his prime. Sounds like the exact opposite of what we need. Not gonna help us win a championship, not gonna get any better, but a decent player who will help us be a middling team while taking minutes away from the youngsters.
If Howard's knee looks right and...
we do not draft a potential rotation player at the 3 and…
the price is right…
I would rather see Howard getting 25 minutes a game at the 3 next season than Thornton or the current incarnation of Mike Miller.
NO to Melo or Boozer or Joe Johnson or Amare
Melo is a choke artist (I can’t flipping believe how many of you want him, the dude sucks in the playoffs every year!!!!!!!!), Boozer isn’t big enough to defend the elite bigs, Joe is overrated and Amare has a bad attitude and plays questionable defense. I’d be open to going after Lebron, Wade or Bosh. That’s it.
I rather have Melo than Bron.
Melo doesnt NEED the ball to be effective.
Btw, you are pretty damn picky aren’t you? Joe Johnson isn’t overrated. He is a Tier-2 superstar, and everyone knows it.
So in saying you rather have Melo than Lebron you're saying you rather lose than win
Picky??!! I just don’t want the Wiz to pay max money to a tier 2/3 star (again). Joe Johnson is not a superstar!!!
Melo is not on Lebron’s level. In case you didn’t read my reply to your other Melo comment:
1, He isn’t a team player.
2. Contrary to most stars, his game gets worse in the playoffs. The only time I’ve seen him step up is in a USA uniform.
3. His team is stacked and they still manage to blow it.
4. He has had off court problems
5. He may be from B more but I rather get the humble hometown kid with far more heart and a far higher ceiling…… Kevin Durant!
6. His defense is questionable.
Who wouldn't rather have Durant?
But as far as “So in saying you rather have Melo than Lebron you’re saying you rather lose than win” goes, I simply ask, what the hell has Lebron won?
I am not a Lebron fan
but there is no denying the fact that he will go down as one of the best to ever play. He is bound to lead a team to a few championships wherever he lands.
I deny that is a fact.
He’s had some pretty good resources at his disposal so far and hasn’t gotten a ring. There is a good chance he’ll get one, but if he doesn’t then no I don’t think he’ll go down as one of the best ever.
by MR on Jun 3, 2010 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Guess it depends on how you define "one of the best to ever play".
There are 12 multiple MVP winners. Then there are single winners like Dr J, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Oscar Robertson, Cousy…even Barkley, Robinson…that you’d have to consider. Will LBJ earn the right to be considered one of the top 20 players of all time? Probably. To me “one of the best ever” means top 5.
by MR on Jun 3, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Bosh would be great with Wall.
It would be so fun to watch but what would we do with blatche?
by rayallenisaballer on Jun 1, 2010 9:38 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I am down for Bosh
I think offensively his ceiling is higher than Dwight Howard. Better jump shot, more moves around the basket, better passer and less foul trouble. Yet not close to Dwight’s defensive game or rebounding.
Blatche would play the 3 and we’d finally have a real big! You can’t contend with Jamison as your starting power forward.
That trade machine is really fun..
You can dream about filling a hole at the 3, shipping out Gil, and getting a good shooter on the wing..
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2e5qfh9
It could happen? Right?
If we don't get one of the big FAs, then where is the rest of our nucleus coming from?
As JPW said, there is not talent like Boozer or Amare around every year. If you all want to just ride out this season with Gil, Wall, and Dray, then where/how are we getting the other 2 stars for our championship nucleus?
Bare in mind as well that BOYD will basically allow us to draft say Damian James instead of Qunicy Pondexter – BOYD is not bringing in any top line talent, just slightly improving our draft position. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves with what BOYD will bring…
Just to clarify my playoff statement, I said playoff contender, which is extremely vague, along the lines of ‘it could be argued that….’ I think the Wiz are no shoo-in with the current team, but have a shot and will be in contention for a playoff spot – so can’t really tank completely. I see us in the late lottery barring any crazy moves right now, which is not where the top talent usually falls.
Also, there is 0% chance Gil is traded for anything of value anytime soon. Best case is we give him away for like Eddy Curry, and as Prada said, more likely we have to give a team something just to take him. Gil is staying, and we can just hope he has a great year and becomes tradeable next year.
Through the draft or in FA/Trade down the line when Wall is ready
You advocate Boozer and Amare as part of a championship nucleus(not sure I agree there) but where do you think they come from? Amare was the #9 pick. Boozer a second rounder. Joe Johnson was the 10th. None of these guys were top 5 picks. You don’t have to be one of the worst teams in the league to draft an eventual supporting star. San Antonio certainly didn’t. Jennings and Brook Lopez were recent #10 picks. Rondo and Perkins are major parts of a championship nucleus and are the 21st and 23rd picks respectively.
Why do you think we have to do something NOW? Would Boozer or Amare vault us into championship contention this year? That would give us a team where the 4 best players are 2 PG’s and 2 PF’s. At least 2 of those guys would be horrible defenders and 2 would be playing out of position. Hardly sounds like a championship roster to me. There is so much uncertainty with our roster right now to lock us into a roster for the next couple years is the height of uninformed decisionmaking. Let’s draft Wall see how ready he is, see if Arenas can stay healthy and fit in along Wall, make sure AB is the real deal, See what our 2-3 other draft picks this summer can do, see if someone will trade for Arenas and if it is worth it to us, etc…… before we make dramatically overpay some FA. Let’s make smart moves not wild shots in the dark hoping we hit something.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 1, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I'm not sure
how you think Wall is immediately turning us into a 40 win team. As disgrunted and BayArea have pointed out – this team was trending downwards with the Big 3, and loss 16 straight with Blatche as the primary focus. Miller is probably gone, Foye is gone, Singleton and Livingston might be out the door as well, not to mention Crit and Earl. To suddenly hit that sweet spot of 39-45 wins, EG is going to have to nail every draft pick and come up with some significant steals on the market.
One 19 year old is going to change that overnight? Even if we end up up pick 7-10, there are still great players to be had – as BayArea pointed out – I just don’t trust EG to draft them.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
I'm sorry to keep on disagreeing with you Jon.
I just well….really disagree. I would posit John Wall is making everything easier. Before I was concerned about us finding a transcendent star(Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Wade). Those are hard to find outside of the first couple picks. I was afraid we’d end up with like the 5th pick(or even third) and find a guy who will be a complimentary star(Amare, Joe Johnson, Boozer, Odom) instead of a Transcendent star. And then next year same thing till we have a team full of Robin’s waiting around for Batman. With John Wall I for one feel confident we found our Transcendent player and now we are looking for complementary stars, which are much easier to find. So when you advocate how we must overpay to sign a complementary guy that another team drafted in the late lottery or beyond I just don’t get it. For a guy like Lebron or Wade sure cuz those guys are tough to find in the draft or at all. Guys like Boozer are always available if you want to overpay. If we signed Boozer I can see us winning 20-45 games next year. If we don’t I can still see us winning 20-45 games next year. It all depends on Wall and Arenas not a second PF.
If we were to sign one of those guys that would be it for us the next 2-3 years barring a miracle Arenas trade. That seems the quickest way to doom us to that Tweener stage. We’d be capped out and our only means of maintaining our level is through the draft. Then we would need those draft pciks to contribute right away which would be tough in the late lottery or beyond. We wouldn’t have time to develop those young guys into complementary stars.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 2, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Still not following your strategy
So you’re saying the reason not to chase a big name FA is to be a worse team and get a better pick the next 1-2 years? I think this is exactly the right logic behind the non-FA option (BOYD).
The reason I disagree is that it isn’t that easy to draft a complimentary star. “Guys like Boozer are always available if you want to overpay”. I disagree, there just aren’t decent FAs very often, that’s why Rashard Lewis gets a max deal. It is true that we would be pretty capped out once we signed a big name, but that is until we could get rid of Gil.
A)Amare and Boozer don’t put us anywhere near a championship roster.
B)Signing them would limit our ability to build a good team in the future or acquire top talent that actually fits our roster dooming us to 4 years of mediocrity
You have decided to frame the debate as “we have to cap out with anyone we can get or tank for a high draft pick”. I don’t see it that way. I think we should actually have an educated idea of what our roster is next year and take whatever pick we get whether it be a top-5 or the 16th pick. No one at this time can make any informed analysis of our roster needs so just maxing out another PF to go with our 2 PG’s is the height of doing something just to do something which is why Cleveland was never able to put a quality team around Lebron. Look you think it’s impossible to draft a complementary star so we HAVE to sign someone else’s complementary star(That was drafted out of the Top-5), this year or else. I simply don’t think that’s true. You feel guys like Boozer and Amare(Who have been on the trading block for years) will not be available in the future. I don’t think thats true or that they are anywhere near as good as you do. Do you seriously feel Rashard Lewis was a good move for them? The playoffs would disagree. They were only able to overcome that albatross because of drafting and a willingness to blow through the salary cap.
Look I can’t understand your points either. One one hand you seem to indicate Gil and AB are so good they doom us to the playoff race. On the other you seem to indicate they aren’t part of a championship nucleus. You seem to indicate we are stuck with Gil for the rest of his contract and then advocate signing someone cuz we’ll be able to flip Gil easily. I don’t believe the only way to acquire a complementary star is this FA period. We will probably never see eye to eye on that. I am super high on Wall but don’t think he puts us into championship contention his rookie year and shouldn’t create the sense of blind panic he apparently threw you into.
If you were advocating a Tier 1 star like Lebron I would be with you but when you talk about Boozer and Amare I really disagree.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 2, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I say we wait....
Use the BOYD strategy…. see if Wall is that Franchise player we can build around…..
There are ALWAYS good Free Agents available…. Perhaps never as many top tier Free Agents as this year (LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Nowitzki, etc…) – but plenty of second tier guys….
Here are some of the players that will be available in the next couple of years as Free Agents…. Some of them could develop into top tier guys….
2011
Kendrick Perkins
Glen Davis
Kenyon Martin
Tayshaun Prince
Yao Ming
Rudy Gay
Tony Parker
Andrei Kirilenko
2012
Al Horford
Carmelo Anthony
Chauncey Billups
Rodney Stuckey
Aaron Brooks
Marc Gasol
David West
Kevin Durant
Jeff Green
Thaddeus Young
Steve Nash
Andre Miller
Greg Oden
Mehmet Okur
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
playoff contender in the east is still sub .500 lol
by les boulez bomber on Jun 2, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=29l4amk guys consider this trade
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 1, 2010 11:01 PM EDT reply actions
uh, no
why would we want an aging Hedo? why would we we want two years of Evans and Banks. Banks has sucked everywhere he has gone. Evans is Michael Ruffin 3.0. This doesn’t help us rebuild and seems to favor your team ridiculously.
You want a first round pick as well? How about a foot rub?
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
this is the best trade that you guys are going to get
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 1, 2010 11:04 PM EDT reply actions
meh
give me this one instead since Hedo wants out of town
You give us
Bargnani
Hedo
We give you
Arenas
Thanks!
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
choose from either hedo or jose.
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 1, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Make it QRoss instead of McGee and I'd consider it
Why should you get one of our best young prospects in a swap of bad contracts? Especially when you’re getting the best player in the deal?
Arenas/Ross for Hedo/Banks/Evans would still be a big win for Toronto. If you want Javale, figure out a S&T with Bosh.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2eobja8 ok this trade works for both of us you get a back up pg in this trade too a very good back up pg
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 1, 2010 11:52 PM EDT reply actions
Why would we need an 8 million dollar PG
for 5 years?
Crazy talk!
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
like think about would you rather have fat ass curry who wont do anything or a good Point forward who can handle the ball and a solid backup up pg. if you guys are willing to buy out an 80 mil contract like no joke you wont get better then this if if was you gm i would do this trade because i don’t want arenas setting a bad impression on wall
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 1, 2010 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
plus arenas is a big risk at 80 mil man you guys are screwed
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 1, 2010 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
i would rather have fat ass curry.
because his contract runs out after this year.
I hate Calderon. He is productive on offense, but there is reason the Raptors suck. Hedo, Balogna, Bosh, Calderon, are all bad defenders.
And - - -
. if you guys are willing to buy out an 80 mil contract like no joke you wont get better then this
There have been NO credible quotes from ANYONE in the Wizards organization about buying out Arenas’ 80 Million contract…. That would not only be foolhardy, but would not help the team’s salary cap situation one bit…. The last thing the new Owner needs to do after spending hundreds of millions of dollars to buy the team – is to throw away another $80 Million into the trash can.
Ted Leonsis met with Arenas at his home – in order to reconcile and let Arenas know his place is still with this organization. There have been pictures taken with Arenas standing next to Leonsis and Grunfeld watching potential draftee workouts…
So – to put to rest your misguided conception that Arenas is simply buy-out material for the Wizards – I propose the following trade:
You sign Bosh to a sign-and-trade for a Max contract…. and trade him and DeMar DeRozan PLUS your 2010 First Round pick for Arenas and Quinton Ross….
Good luck getting anything better from Chicago or Miami… when Bosh walks.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
To be fair
We should throw in our #30 pick.
But yeah, that sounds about right…
Can convicted felons get work permits in Canada?
Gilbert is one of those… otherwise if we could get that deal I suspect I would take it in an eyelash… but odds on it happening are in the 100 to 1 range.
Good point Canada is currently stopping Baseball players from entering the country if they have a criminal record
Will Gil be able to play when we play in Toronto next year?
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 2, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
We only have Wall for 4 years
It pains me to remember that timeline, and I am not sure how long you are willing to wait for Ernie to hit the jackpot in the draft. I understand that there are non top-5 gems, but not often. If you are banking on the #15 or later pick to bring us another part of our nucleus, then that is incredibly optimistic. Brandon Jennings was the 1 and only great player after Curry last year, and he was still in the top half of the first round. We will likely be drafting outside of the top-5 for the next 4 years thanks to Wall, so I think we have to move up our rebuilding timeline.
Look at the Magic as a model. Sure Dwight Howard is better than Wall, but they overpaid Rashard Lewis, but it still works. You are nuts if you don’t want Bosh on this team, (Boozer and Amare are more questionable). We can afford Amare/Bosh/Boozer and another max player, so I don’t understand everyone else’s blueprint for success: just try to trade Gil and hoping Ernie pulls out the biggest draft sleeper in one of the next 4 years? That would still only give us 2 of the 3 core guys we need. Does everyone think Dray is one of the 3 best players on a championship team at some point?
How can we afford 2 Max players this summer?
I wasn’t aware that is even a possibility. Still man doesn’t is seem silly to advocate overpaying for a secondary star, because you can’t draft them out of the top-5, when the secondary star’s you use as an example are all taken outside of the Top 5? Sure I’m all for Lebron, Wade and a lesser extent Bosh. Those other guys are a completely nother matter and seem the quickest way to losing Wall in 4 years. Again why does this all have to be done NOW? What about next year? Half the 2009 All-Star team came outside of the top-5. Plus aren’t you moving the goal posts with the “outside top 15 thing?” Didn’t you just state we are talking about late lottery and not "we are stuck being a playoff team’?
The Magic model works because they let Howard mature BEFORE they capped out the roster and blew through the luxury tax and I would argue more of their success was due to Nelson and Turkoglu than Lewis. They have only been able to overcome Lewis’s pathetic contract due to great drafting and willingness to pay a staggering luxury tax bill.
I agree Wall bumped up our rebuilding but not to THIS year. Especially when Gilbert is the ultimate question mark and AB has never done if for a full season. Let’s have a year, consider our options, see how the rookie’s/young guys pan out and then make a smart play next year. I think you overstate how hard it will be to draft/acquire a Ginobli, Perkins, Parker, Rondo, Roy, Dirk, David West, Amare, Granger, Nelson, Boozer, Marion, Dirk, Richard Jefferson, Rip Hamilton, Ben Wallace, Rasheed, Gilbert Arenas, Turkoglu(Leaving out superlative players taken out of the 5 like Kobe, Paul Pierce, Nash) etc….. especially when we have alot of picks over the next 2 years. It’s not a hold your breath and pray for 4 years scenario. We might have those 3 stars or we might only have 1. We don’t know yet so the panic to sign anybody can doom us for many years. We just don’t know what our nucleus is yet so to make desperation acquisistions of overpaid secondary guys might prevent us from from developing that nucleus or give us a nucleus that just sucks together despite their individual talents.
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 2, 2010 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions
What???
Brandon Jennings was the 1 and only great player after Curry last year, and he was still in the top half of the first round.
No way dood. A lot of guys drafted after #10 showed they have the potential to be stars in this league…Jrue Holiday, Ty Lawson(maybe not a star, but he was damn good, never failed to impress me), Darren Collison(was a DAMN good starter), Blair(not a star, but productive, maybe a future starter), Taj Gibson(starter), Terrence Williams(flashed some greatness at the end of the year)
I'm referring to superstar talent
Top-3 player on a championship team is what you look for, and only Jennings fits that bill of the players you mentioned. From last year’s draft I’d say the only guys with the potential right now are Griffin, Rubio, Evans, Curry, Jennings. Holiday, Collison, and Blair may be good, but not sold at all they are championship nucleus guys.
Really?
Out of curiosity, who were the Pistons “Superstars”?
Y?
Why do we have to draft a championship top 3 piece in the next couple years? Why can’t we accumulate talent through the draft, and keep our cap flexibility so we can deal for the right guy when the other pieces are in place? How many of the contenders are built through the draft alone? San Antonio is the only example.
Every other contender used a combination of the draft and trades. So the leap that we MUST draft a top 3 piece is patently false.
by Jheiser3 on Jun 2, 2010 8:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Im just gonna say
Even though Wall does make it more likely for FA’s to come to Dc, it doesnt really mean they will come here. Honestly Blatche got a majority of his points as the focal point of the offense and gil hasnt played 50 games the past 3 seasons. So we’re not as enticing as a market like Chicago or the hear
Agreed, realistically, no big name is signing here
I just don’t think that should stop Ernie from at least trying
Right
It’s unrealistic to think James, Wade or Bosh will sign with the Wizards this summer. Sure, there’s an outside shot, but it’s still very unrealistic. None of the other players are worth targetting for the Wizards.
You mentioned above:
If we strikeout with the big guys in free-agency, then I’d go with BOYD.
The problem is that’s putting the cart before the horse. The draft this season happens before the free agency period. It’s possible a BOYD trade could take place later in the summer, or during the season, but it would be unfortunate to risk missing an opportunity on or in advance of draft day. There will definitely be teams looking to sell their pick. But any BOYD trade will likely pull the Wizards out of the running for any max contract player.
It’s possible the Wizards can get another top 10 or so pick this season. It’s also likely next season they’ll get a pick in the 5-10 range. They also have interesting prospects in McGee, Blatche and Young to go along with Wall. And there will be more opportunities to make trades and sign free agents to bring in additional talent in the many years to come. If the Wizards need 3 stars to win a championship, they’ll have a more realistic shot at finding them through focusing on those resources than prioritizing free agency this summer.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 2, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
How about signing
Rudy Gay? I think he would fit us perfectly and make us one of the top scoring teams in the league. If things don’t work out big with McGee we can always make a pitch for Yao the following year.
PG- Wall
SG- Arenas
SF- Gay
Would be able to put the lights out against anybody. Obviously we would need to address the big men but I don’t see why we can’t. We don’t need to get the best of the best, we just need some quality low bust FA’s.
"But my main problem with McClain is his lack of hunger – he clearly doesn’t lust for the kill" -Sons of Blanda
"I've been aware of McClain's downside for several months and posted on it - many here agree this guy's overrated." Sons of Blanda
"McClain isn't in the game the full 30 minutes, film shows he dogs it." Sons of Blanda
This looks a great draft to have lots of first round picks in
And having more picks means more margin for error in our drafting (and since Grunfeld is still here then the Wizards need that margin). I am real intrigued by the idea of getting that No. 2 pick away from the 76ers. I am not a DeMarcus Cousins fan at all. But couldn’t Cousins knucklehead factor go down if he is playing with someone like John Wall that he likes playing with. Of all the BOYD strategies that were discussed that’s the one that piques my interest. It’s probably a pipe dream but a Cousins-Wall coupling could help transform this franchise.
"I say he does have to shoot me now! So shoot me now!" --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Jun 2, 2010 11:29 AM EDT reply actions
I would pick Favors before Cousins
by BayAreaBullet on Jun 2, 2010 12:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Guys in this year's Draft that I think have the potential to be All-Stars
1. John Wall (Franchise player potential)
2. Demarcus Cousins (Franchise player potential)
3. Evan Turner
4. Derrick Favors (Franchise player potential)
5. Patrick Patterson
6. Wes Johnson
7. Al-Farouq Aminu
8. Xavier Henry SG
9. Greg Monroe
10, Hassan Whiteside (Franchise player potential)
- Franchise Player means a player you can build around – a multiple All-Star type player (First Team or Second Team All-NBA type player) – one of the top 10 best in the League.
Honestly – not since the 2003 Draft (LeBron James, Carmello Anthony, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh) have I seen so much talent in the First Round of a draft….
I thought last year’s draft sucked – and there were still good players available in the late lottery -
Well – this year, there will be some VERY good players available with picks into the 20’s
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
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