The Boston Celtic Model pre/post Big 3
by Jheiser3 on May 27, 2010 8:18 PM EDT
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PrintI've seen references to the Celtics as the model that the Wizards should follow. The sugggestion was that we have Wall, Arenas and Blatche, (and max dollars available) therefore we should be looking for a big hitter to combine with these guys to reach that Celtic Big 3 level.
The point was made that the Celtics had nothing before those trades but were Champs afterward. I've argued pretty hard against the idea that this is the year to spend big or acquire long term 8-figure contracts. I thought it would be worthwhile to go over what the Celtics had done prior to bringing Garnett, Allen and PIerce together. For one I believe its important to put some details on areas where there is only blurry memory.
Secondly this allows me to agree that the Celtic model is exactly what we should be doing and exactly what Ted wants to do. The catch is that signing a max player this year would short cut the real building that was done in Boston.
Below is a chart I put together showing the 2006 Celtics, sorted by minutes played. I subtracted WallyZ and Scalabrine from the chart. In terms of minutes played but in the interest of full disclosure they came in just after Kendrick Perkins.Not all were drafted by Boston but that is because the NBA rules force teams to pick a player then trade him.
| Player | Age | Exp | Draft Rd | Draft Year | |
| Al Jefferson | 22 | 2 | 1 |
2004 | |
| Ryan Gomes | 24 | 1 | 2 |
2005 | |
| Delonte West | 23 | 2 | 1 |
2004 | |
| Rajon Rondo | 20 | R | 1 |
2006/PHX | |
| Gerald Green | 21 | 1 | 1 |
2005 | |
| Paul Pierce | 29 | 8 | 1 |
1998 | |
| Sebastian Telfair | 21 | 2 | 1 |
2006/MIN | |
| Kendrick Perkins | 22 | 3 | 1 |
2003/MEM | |
| Tony Allen | 25 | 2 | 1 | 2004 | |
| Leon Powe | 23 | R | 2 | 2006 | |
| *Dahntay Jones | 1 |
2003 | |||
| *Troy Bell | 1 |
2003 | |||
| *Traded to Memphis for the draft rights to Kendrick Perkins. | |||||
1. Jefferson, Gomes, Gerald Green, Telfair and 2 #1's were dealt for Garnett.
2. The #5 pick, Delonte West, WallyZ and a 2 were dealt to Seattle for Ray Allen AND Glen Davis.
The Celtics turned those draft picks into stars while still having a core group of high draft picks who played huge roles in their Title run. Rondo and Perkins start, Allen and Poe were key reserves. So when you ask for the Wizards to follow the Celtic model, I absolutely agree. We should be acquiring as many high picks as possible to both develop and to leverage/package for better players in the future.
We mention the OKC or Spurs model but IMO the Celtics show what can be done when you combine multiple high picks, cap flexibility and, of course, timing. This is the kind of core Ted wants to build here so the Wizards can be good for a decade.
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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It also helps
if everyone views your key trading piece (Jefferson) as a future superstar.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
And if ultra-efficient superstars like KG and Ray Allen are available
Chris Paul and Chris Bosh are probably the best we could do, and it would most likely cost us Wall.
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by pantslessyoda1 on May 27, 2010 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure does
Point is we have only just begun to acquire pieces. The Cleveland trade brought a foreign asset, a draft pick and cap space. Turn that space into more picks and continue to fortify the foundation.
No short cuts.
Yeah Wall is gonna need 2-3 years before he is ready to be the man for a championship team.
If we could get Lebron, Carmelo, Durant before then, than sure we can start making those moves. Personally this lakers team and the Celtics teams are kinda anomalies over the last 20 years IMO. Sure it can happen but your basically waiting for a crazy confluence of events to occurr and then have everything work out right afterwards. Not sure you can plan to replicate that. If we were to use the Boston analogy I would say we are one more year away from having those types of assets.
IMO I think it’s better to wait till we see Wall is ready before we make huge moves unless they are complete no brainers (signing Lebron, Durant, getting a lopsided trade). That way we have a longer and more viable championship window. I want to aim for a championship. Plus we still don’t know if Leonsis is willing to spend the kinda money they do in LA/Boston/Orlando. The luxury tax payments they make are jaw dropping. We need to see Arenas and Wall on the court for an extended amount of time before we can start to make serious roster moves based on that backcourt. I’m very optimistic on it but I’d like to see it before we build on that foundation.
I think this team can sign a midlevel center, and fill out the rest of the team with 1 year contracts and BOYD in addition to our draft picks and still be entertaining next year if things go right. Alot of people equate that with tanking but I can see that lineup competing for a playoff spot and still be building for the future.
by BayAreaBullet on May 28, 2010 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions
huh?
Where you see a crazy confluence of events, I see a plan. Portland is another example the only difference there is that Pritchard refuses to cash in any of his chips for a superstar. He’s too in love with guys that may never play there, or won’t develop fully because he keeps drafting over them.
Not sure how you can look at that chart and think we’re one year away. Boston used 7 first round draft picks over 3 years to create their base, then another 3 firsts in the trades. Even if we strip that back we’re a couple years away.
The stockpiling young guys is a plan
Having Ray Allen and Garnett become available at the same time is a confluence of events. I agree we should put ourselves in a position to take advantage of that opportunity if it ever arises.
I think if we’re smart we can pick up another 2 picks/young guys by using our cap space this year for BOYD or at the trading deadline hence the one year comment. Though Rondo, Pierce and Perkins was a better trio to build around than we have with Wall, Arenas and AB.
by BayAreaBullet on May 28, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
You see a plan
I see Boston having been desperate to go all in. I admire what Ainge did, but the timeline doesn’t completely support your hypothesis. Everyone in Boston was flipping their lid after the #5 trade for Ray Allen, as the team consisted of two over the hill former Allstars. This was the same team that had promised for the previous two years that they were going to build through the draft and build around players like Telfair, Jefferson, and Perkins.
The KG thing basically fell from the sky. Where Ainge deserves more credit is his drafting skills as Big Baby, Rondo, Perkins, and Jefferson have all had some serious value.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
Ray
Ray Allen had averaged 70 games-played over the prior 3 years and well over 20 a game in that time. So forgive me if I don’t put too much credence into a fanbase’s generalized reaction to any given transaction. Any move is going to have a positive and negative reaction. We usually just remember the side we agreed with, at least I do :)
I think some of that was luck and just a result of having so many picks, but yeah, Rondo was a great pick
Guy’s basically the second or third best player on a team with three first ballot hall of famers. Boston’s post big three rebuilding project won’t even be that difficult since they’ve got great guys filling the two hardest roles to fill (huge center who rebounds and defends like crazy and elite two way pass-first point guard).
Actually, Perkins is a free agent this summer. If we’re going to overspend a bit on someone, I’d want it to be him. 8 or 9 million dollars a year to have Howard’s kryptonite would be money well-spent, plus it would let us use Javale as either a Birdman-type off the bench or as Ralph Sampson 2.0.
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by pantslessyoda1 on May 30, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I could have sworn it was 2010
Nonetheless, he’s someone I’d love us to look into getting at some point. It might even be easier then, since Boston will probably be about ready to blow it up.
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by pantslessyoda1 on May 30, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm nto sure I agree that the OKC and Boston model are really different
If we assume that OKC is just gonna stand pat the next 2 years then sure they are different. Personally I think they are gonna make some moves in the next year or so now that Durant has finally arrived. Both plans involve building a young base. 3 years from now we might consider them the same model. The big difference was OKC started with a rookie(Durant) and Boston started with an established, playoff tested Vet(Pierce).
Not to nitpick but what Boston did wasn’t building a core to make them good for a decade like you seem to imply. They gave themselves a 1 year championship window. They were able to extend that window by 2 years by ballooning their payroll. I’m not saying it wasn’t worth it(I think it was) but it certainly wasn’t building for a decade .
PIerce
Pierce was leftover from the previous core of Antoine Walker et al. Then they re-tooled.
Boston could have stuck with developing that roster but they chose to cash in for superstars and all-NBA guys. That’s the kind of option you have with a stacked roster.
I don’t think OKC and Boston are different. I was pointing out that we as fans have noted OKC as the model. People then say the jury is out on them. Fine but its not like OKC was the first team to build this way. Thus the details on how Boston did it.
It'd be interesting to use what if sports or something to figure out how good Boston would be if they hadn't made the trades
Rondo
West
Pierce
Jefferson
Perkins
with the current bench plus Jeff Green would be interesting, although I doubt they’d win more than 45 games and flame out in the second round.
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by pantslessyoda1 on May 30, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, maybe not
They had the pick that became Flynn, they probably could have drafted Curry, Jennings, or Jordan Hill.
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by pantslessyoda1 on May 30, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
This reminds me...
When the Celts traded the pick and West for Davis and Allen, everyone thought it was a terrible trade (I remember Simmons in particular panned it). I thought that was a good move by itself — Davis was underrated, West was overrated, and Green is a dime-a-dozen forward. And of course, Ray Allen was the best player in the deal by a mile.
Yes!
The timeline of this has been screwed up in retrospect. Everyone was KILLING the Celtics after that original trade. When Garnett stated that it was time to leave Sota, and the Celtics managed to swing that deal, that is when the whole tenor changed.
But you can’t really plan for a superstar to become disgruntled as part of your rebuilding plan.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
BUT
if you have tons of assets on the roster -you can take advantage if a Superstar wants out of another team….
Kobe Bryant was none too happy a few years ago…..
LeBron can’t seem to get his team to obtain the right mix of players….
Dwight Howard might get tired of losing in the EC finals every year…..
NO – you can’t plan for a superstar to become disgruntled – but you can plan to have assets on hand just in case SOMETHING happens……
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Plus, once a year or so someone will be available
Bosh, Gasol, Lebron, maybe eventually Howard, at least one superstar either changes teams or wants to change teams every year.
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by pantslessyoda1 on May 30, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
think of it this way
Lets look past Ray Allen and Kevin Garnet… The Lakers traded Shaq and he had plenty left. Charles Barkley, Jason Kidd, Vince Carter, Pau Gasol, Tracy McGrady (Orlando) and Chauncey Billups (Detroit) are the short list off the top of my head.
You aren’t planning on a star becoming disgruntled and asking out. You are planning on stars being available for the right price. You’re saving up for that. The reasons why they are available are many. Besides injury or felony the reasons aren’t important.
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