LeBron James plays possibly his last game as a Cavalier
by Mike Prada on May 13, 2010 10:54 PM EDT
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(Also, Caron, Antawn and Brendan all played poorly in the playoffs for their team. I wonder what Gilbert Arenas is thinking right now. Very interesting that they played so poorly without him. Hmm...).
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As a Knick fan, I like it. As a Wizards fan, I love it.
The dirty little secret about the Cavs, though, is that they might be better next year without Shaq and with Jamison in a diminished role, so there’s a genuinely good reason for him to stay. Still, this has to make Chicago, New York, and Miami look a lot more appealing.
If he leaves…hot damn, what does Cleveland do? You’re paying the luxury tax (I think) for a team who’s best players are Jamison and Mo Williams. Varejao is very good, but he’s useless if you’re not a contender. Hopefully the Knicks can trade Eddy Curry’s expiring deal for him, which would be a bit of a win win for both teams since it would allow New York to at least consider signing a free agent other than Bosh or Amare (who plays center if they get Wade or Johnson along with Lebron? Jonathan Bender? Gallo?).
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by pantslessyoda1 on May 13, 2010 11:02 PM EDT reply actions
The other thing I love about this
It vindicates my love for Tony Allen. Celtic fans more than anyone love to tell me I’m stupid for loving him, but there’s no way Boston wins this series without him. In fact, I don’t even know if they could have beat Miami without him – he’s the only guy on the team who can guard a quick perimeter player who’s over 6’3
Follow me on twitter - http://twitter.com/TheRealTPruitt
by pantslessyoda1 on May 13, 2010 11:04 PM EDT reply actions
feel a little bad for jamison
but not nearly bad enough to not enjoy the hell out of this. it just feels sooo right.
"how ironic - you came here with a mouse in a bottle, now YOU are the mouse in the bottle" - B.M. Smith
by little stevie colter on May 13, 2010 11:05 PM EDT reply actions
bwahhahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahaha(cough, cough, choke)hahahahahahahahaha…
Seriously, as I said before: guts and killer instinct. To date, LeBron James and the Cavs have neither. But as Simmons said, James now has the perfect out.
I am ridiculously happy right now.
I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE!
by OleksiyPecherovsHomeboy on May 13, 2010 11:11 PM EDT reply actions
ohhh man....
I love whenever Lebron fails.
also, I chuckle whenever I hear frustrated Lebron fans right after a Lebron fail.
muahahahaha! >:)
Between this and the Pittsburgh game last night,
I’m almost as happy as if DC had actually won a series.
by hibachi on May 13, 2010 11:14 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
More truth to that
than I want to admit…but it does feel like magic, watching my third and fourth most hated teams fall within days of each other to teams they were expected to beat…
We're from the city with the highest murder rate in the country. Why WOULDN'T they call us the Bullets?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on May 14, 2010 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Flashback:
DeShawn Stevenson calls James overrated, NBA fans and “experts” clutch their pearls and scream blasphemy.
I think it’s safe to say that Stevenson wasn’t exactly referring to James’ numbers.
Will Jay-Z make a song about this?
LeBron and the Cavs just gave up at the end of the game,
I can’t remember ever seeing that at the end of a contested playoff series. All of them, what a bunch of losers. They didn’t foul when they needed to, they didn’t push the ball up the court…seriously, this makes me wonder if LeBron really has what it takes to be a champion. His max salary alone will make it hard to match him with another first-option type player. And the refs didn’t throw the game…this gives me renewed faith in the NBA.
Defintely dogged it
those last couple of minutes. They were only down nine and they really weren’t giving maximum effort. Mo WIlliams played well in the first half but he really disappeared when they needed him to keep up the effort. James needs another reliable scorer for him to play well, and someone dynamic, not Jamison.
Waiting for Paul Pierce to deliver the dream quote
“On a side note, the Cavaliers, you look at them, you look at us, I mean, people say it’s a rivalry, but a rivalry don’t start until y’all beat us.”
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/2009/08/lebron_james_discusses_film_di.html
by morethesamewiz on May 13, 2010 11:44 PM EDT reply actions
This is a day I've been dreaming of for years!!
And its even sweeter than I thought it would be. Lebron coming back or not, his daddy (Mike Brown) has to be gone. Jamison getting posterized and dominated in the series was just icing on the cake for me. I do have to admit that all my silly conspiracy theories have to be thrown out the window with Lebron getting bounced in 5 last year and in 6 this year.
If this is his last game in a Cavs jersey, Verizon Center needs to be filled to capacity next year the first game Cleveland comes to town and we need to just give it to them. First, give Tawn a standing ovation but after that we need to just laugh in their face all game or something….I know I’ll be there!!
by SkinsWizStangs on May 13, 2010 11:53 PM EDT reply actions
I see where you're going with your comment Mike
Arenas MADE guys like Butler, Haywood and Jamison better…. Hell, he made guys like DeShawn Stevenson, Jarred Jeffries and Larry Hughes better players. ALL of them have gone to other teams and played worse…
So does this mean that LeBron can’t make players around him better? Jamison certainly wasn’t better in Cleveland than in Washington….
And what about Jason Kidd in Dallas…. Can we say that playing with Arenas was better for Butler, Haywood and Stevenson than playing with Kidd? That Arenas made them better players?
Interesting thought.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Although I wonder if the same is true about Amare
Shameless plug!
In all seriousness, LeBron never played with an elite rolling big man on a pick and roll. The bigs he had were Drew Gooden (popper), Jamison (popper), Varejao (who can’t finish) and Shaq. LeBron’s style is ideally suited for a great pick and roll partner.
The manner in which LBJ dominates the ball
I just think it sucks the oxygen out of the rest of the team.
Kobe did it too. Till he learned how to make his teammates better.
Lebron has a lot to learn. Clearly.
I sorta agree
The thing is, though, is he really is more Magic than Kobe. He should be controlling the ball like a point guard. Kobe isn’t that kind of playmaker or dribbler.
But he was surrounded by a bunch of spot-up shooters and Shaq. He never had that pick and roll partner that could dive down the lane and get dunks. He never had that guy that would really make you pick your poison. Unlike Orlando, for example, who surrounded Howard with all those shooters.
I don’t think LeBron needs Howard. I do think that if he had Amare, nobody was stopping them.
At the same time, I agree that it's not easy to find guys to play with LeBron
I sort of hold that against him, but I think it’s more that he’s so unique as a player. You need very idiosyncratic players at the 1 and either the 4 or the 5.
Would you think the Bulls would complement Lebron well?
Chad Ford’s (ESPN so grain-of-salt) reporting that the 3 GM’s he’s spoken with post-game agree Bulls are the likely winner of the LBJ sweepstakes.
by morethesamewiz on May 14, 2010 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
No, actually I wouldn't
Rose and LeBron would never work. Noah’s a good roll man, but he’s not a threat like a more athletic player would be. The rest of their team is garbage.
New Jersey’s interesting, but they don’t have the shooters. In all honestly, I think his best bet is New York in a package deal with Bosh or Amare.
I guess that fits with the Magic comparison. If Lebron is best controlling the ball, a dominant point guard would probably take Lebron off of his game, however it would be an interesting experiment to see.
by morethesamewiz on May 14, 2010 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions
A lot of the blame has to go to Mike Brown.
Offensive idiot. There’s no system at all. Coach-sanctioned one-on-five basketball.
Actually, I was wondering how LeBron might do in Eddie Jordan’s version of the Princeton….
These arguments make no sense
Lebron came up short against another team that the Cavs were not prepared to deal with and he gets panned as heartless. Arenas doesn’t play in almost four years and all of the sudden he was the reason Haywood, Butler and Jamison were playing so well. All three of them were good when Arenas wasn’t playing, or are we just calling a mulligan during Arena’s absence? Lebron is still light years ahead of Jordan or Bryant at this same age. His time will come around, whether with the Cavs or someone else.
Speaking of making no sense...
Lebron is still light years ahead of Jordan or Bryant at this same age.
Lebron is 25. He is in his prime — he’s probably not going to get much better. And as for your comparison:
At 25, Jordan was MVP, the defensive player of the year, and earned the best PER ever (can’t be calculated before something like 1974). It was arguably the best season of basketball ever played.
At 25, Kobe had three rings and had already had the second-best season of his career (statistically).
You're right about Jordan
and I did sound pretty stupid using the term “light years”. But he is still better than Bryant at this stage in his career. You can’t point to championships because Bryant was playing with most dominant center of his age and had a great team around him. James has had to carry an entire organization on his back, usually with subpar help.
You’re right about Jordan though. He was ready at 25 to start taking over the league and dominating. But you really can’t compare anyone to Jordan, and I really shouldn’t have even brought him into the conversation.
Actually it's probably Bryant who doesn't belong
I think bringing James into the GOAT conversation is valid. But Bryant doesn’t belong there with Jordan, Robertson, Magic, Wilt, etc. He’s a 2nd tier guy (like Shaq, Duncan, Nash, and Olajuwon). My point about Bryant was more that he was pretty much in his prime versus that he was as good as James.
Bill Simmons
Has an article detailing why the Bulls are a good fit. Couldn’t link, on ESPN web site. He doesn’t say much about Noah, likes the Rose fit.
Lebron is NOT Magic. No similarity.
Lebron is a very good passer, but nowhere near Magic. Not even in the same league. Lebron as an assist man is more like Jordan. But somehow Jordan instilled a sense of success in his teammates while Lebron instills a sense of failure in his. I don’t think it’s strictly a basketball thing. It’s a personality thing. If MJ were as self obsessed as Lebron is I think his teammates would have the same fear-to-fail syndrome. As self obsessed as MJ was, he was more obsessed with winning.
by MR on May 14, 2010 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hmmm
I have to completely 100% disagree with you.
I see no similarity between Lebron & Magic’s game.
Maybe you can tell me what similarities you see? Or maybe we’re just destined to disagree on this one.
by MR on May 14, 2010 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Both are essentially 6'9'' point guards
Neither had a consistent outside shot. Both were way stronger than anyone they’re guarding. Both deferred too much early in their careers. Both needed the ball in their hands setting others up.
The key difference is in demeanor (obvious) and in coaching. Magic had a coach that demanded they push the ball. LeBron has Mike Brown. LeBron scores more, but he also has way less talent around him than Magic ever did.
Ironically, I see very little similarities between LeBron and MJ. MJ was set in a position orthodoxy. He could pass and set people up, but not like LeBron. On the other hand, LeBron is light years behind Jordan in terms of scoring skills – MJ was posting people up in his third year in the league.
by Mike Prada on May 14, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agree with the similarities
I grew up in Southern California watching Magic. There are definitely similarities between him and LeBron. LeBron can’t hold Magic’s shoes, but it’s not like they don’t exhibit similar traits. They do. Also agree that MJ and LeBron aren’t very similar.
Magic was a 6'9" point guard. James is a 6'9" small fwd who passes a lot because he draws so much attention.
Magic lived to pass. Lebron does it because that is often what the defense gives him. MJ was the same way.
Magic was stronger than his opponents because as a 6’9" pg he was much larger than them. His game was not about power. Lebron is just crazy strong. His game is (often) bull rushing into a defender and either scoring, getting fouled or both.
Magic was the primary ball handler and started the offense. Lebron is the primary scorer and finisher. LIke MJ.
He draws so much attention because his team stinks
Again, if you superimpose Magic on the 2010 Cavs, he’s doing a lot more scoring. LeBron doesn’t have Kareem or Worthy.
Magic still probably finds a way to win, but his numbers would very much resemble LeBron’s.
Seriously I'm flabbergasted.
Aside from both being such great players I really don’t see much similarity. I think Magic is Kidd, Paul, Deron Williams. His weapon was the laser pass, the unexpected pass, the great setup. Lebron was more like Dominique Wilkins, Drexler, MJ, even Pierce…but obviously larger and with more power.
Forget stats. I’m not analyzing their numbers. But how they fit with their team, how they play.
Have you watched much of Magic’s play? Full games? It’s been a long time for me, but I did spend years in California during the core of Magic’s career. My memory of him has little to do with LBJ’s game.
Of course I've watched Magic play
They’re not exactly the same, but they are similar. Keep in mind that LeBron posted the highest assist average for a forward this season in NBA history. He does laser passes too.
I think we honestly have to ask ourselves how Magic would have played if he ended up with a team with less talent. I don’t think he would have deferred as much.
I don't think he deferred
I think his passing/assists was his strength and his favorite weapon. That’s not deferring. Jason Kidd doesn’t defer, he passes to a finisher.
From the Lakers I’d say Lebron was more like Worthy (although clearly not a great comparison).
Sorry, didn’t mean to be condescending about watching Magic play, I wasn’t sure how much of him you’d seen. I think a lot of people talk about players based on highlights, apparently not the case here with you. Unless you watched multiple full games of a player I don’t think you really understand their game. I don’t like to discuss Dr. J because I never really watched him at the time so my image and opinion of him is based on those same highlights you see over and over. My image and opinion of Magic is based on watching him game after game for over a decade. So I’m comfortable that my opinion is fully informed.
Yeah I mean it's obviously a fair difference of opinion
No worries.
Though I will say Kidd passes to a finisher in part because he had one (Kenyon Martin, Vince Carter, Jefferson, etc.). LeBron never had another finisher like that. Which is why I think Cleveland really screwed up by not getting Amare. Amare strikes me as the perfect yin to LeBron’s yang.
To follow up on this
To me, LeBron doesn’t have the natural offensive skill of a Dominique or MJ. Those guys had great one-on-one moves and could use them to get several sorts of shots. LeBron is just hella quick and strong, which allows him to burst down the lane and finish. He doesn’t have those skills. If anything, he’s been miscast in Cleveland as the guy that has to score like MJ for them to win.
However, I do think he is a natural passer. His court vision is great, though probably not as good as Magic’s. And, like Magic, LeBron is just overpowering when he drives to the basket. He’s probably more overpowering than Magic and with slightly less court vision.
I don't mean to intrude on your debate
But my 2 cents:
I’m in the middle of you two on this. Magic was a pure point, a creator. I don’t see LeBron being a pure point or a creator on that level, but he is a terrific passer. As Mike points out, the highest assist numbers ever for a forward. LeBron isn’t a MJ-like or Kobe-like go-to scorer either, even though he puts up very high scoring averages. He’s got so many varied skills that it is hard to pinpoint exactly who to compare him to. I think he’s more Magic than MJ, but again, not sure who the right comparison would be, or what the perfect pieces would be to put around him.
Nobody I’ve ever seen has even approached Magic’s court vision.
I’d love it if you would point out a YouTube highlight of what you are calling Magic’s ‘power’. I didn’t really see it that way, I’m curious to see what you mean.
Magic was a finisher as well.
At the end of the game, at the buzzer, it was Magic’s ball, and more often than not, he took the shot. He averaged nearly 20 ppg. He played center to win his first championship. Do you really consider him a pure point?
Do you really consider him a pure point?
Yes. I don’t think calling someone a point guard means they can’t score.
I mean finisher as in finishing at the rim, not finishing the game. Magic didn’t really even dunk that much. Certainly couldn’t get up for those massive lobs Lebron gets.
by MR on May 14, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, he's definitely not the athlete LeBron is
But in terms of how he got from point A to point B, it seems Magic relied on his strength much like LeBron did.
I’ll try to track down some clips if I have some time.
...I dont do it often
But i agree with Prada 100% :p….If you cant see the similarities between Lebron and Magic I think it is because the media has shoved Lebron down your throat and now you cant watch him play unbiasedly. Just my opinion.
by tw10 on May 14, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't buy it
They were bad with Gilbert too this year…he didn’t make them better or worse — they just weren’t good (except Haywood, who was pretty respectable in both places).
Yeah, GIlbert doesn't necessarily make anyone better
He’s not a natural point or a natural passer. He’s a shooter and a slasher and those guys made Arenas better just as he helped them. I think we are still on a litle high from the game last night. The fact remains that Arenas is a huge question mark, and Lebron, whether he stays in Cleveland or goes somewhere else in the East, is going to be a thorn in our sides for the next ten years.
Not sure I get your point
He’s not a natural point or a natural passer.
But then, neither is Kobe, Dwayne Wade or LeBron James… but all have been praised for “making their teammates better”…
My point was that even though LeBron is the best basketball player on the planet… I don’t see how he makes his teammates better…. Certainly Jamison doesn’t seem to be a better player next to Bron – compared to his time in Washington. Larry Hugues stunk it up playing next to Bron – yet was in consideration for an All-Star nod playing next to Arenas.
Yet I DO see how Arenas made Jamison, Butler, Hughes, Jeffries, Jarvis Hayes, and DeShawn Stevenson better players…. He drew the majority of the opposition’s attention… creating opportunities for his teammates (even when HE DIDN’T GET AN ASSIST or score a bucket)…. His drives to the basket opened up opportunities for 3-point shooters (Stevenson, Hayes, Jamison)…. The threat of his 3-point shooting created cutting lanes for slashers (Butler, Hugues)…
When I watch LeBron – I see him assessing the defense, looking for some slight dent where he can bull his way to the basket…. and 4 GUYS STANDING AROUND WATCHING HIM. Now maybe that’s not LeBron’s fault – but I don’t see any of his teammates being considered for All-Star nods either.
Both Kobe Bryant and Dwayne Wade know what it’s like to be stuck as an elite player on a mediocre team – with the perennial 1st round Playoff loss to a better team – and the resultant mid-first round draft picks – - – and Arenas knows the same pain …..
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on May 15, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Both Kobe Bryant and Dwayne Wade know what it’s like to be stuck as an elite player on a mediocre team – with the perennial 1st round Playoff loss to a better team – and the resultant mid-first round draft picks – – – and Arenas knows the same pain …..
Their mediocre teams did NOT include two allstars and a solid defenisive center. I like a lot of your stuff Rook, but sometimes I think you are too biased and because you loathe LeBron and like Gil it blinds you from the truth.
If Arenas makes his teammates better than LeBron makes his, the where the hell are the WINS? Look at the Wizards record since Gil joined the team and Clevelands record when he joined. Yes the Wizards improved when the got Gil, but he also had a strong supporting players with Jamison, Hughes, Caron, Haywood. In the beginning of his career the best players Lebron played with were Big Z, Drew Gooden, Eric EFFING Snow, Freakin Donyell Marshall, A paid, unintersted Larry Hughes, and Verajao(who i think is slightly autistic.)
They Wizards haven’t finished a season with more than 4 wins over .500 since the 04-05 season. The Cavs have won 50 games each year since LeBron’s 3rd year.(and he got them over .500 in his second year.) Its time to realize that Arenas isnt going to lead this team anywhere. He can be a key player on a winning team but not THE guy on a CHAMPIONSHIP CALIBER team.
Lebron tanked to give himself an out
Yeah, he made some good plays, but he also made a lot of really questionable and lazy plays, which is something he doesn’t usually do. In college, when a star does something like that that you wonder about point shaving. In this case, I wonder if he threw this series to give himself the perfect excuse to bail for a major market team and really maximize his diva-ness.
I dont think so
I credit the Celtics defense. The Celtics are a very good team despite being old. I was routing against Lebron, but Jamison and Shaq weren’t the right fits for their scheme and the Celtics would be a tough matchup for even the Lakers.
Jamison was horrible
The Arenas point is interesting, but I look at it on the flip side: Did the Wizards players bring their bad karma to other teams? Jamison could have played a huge role in the Cavs coming back to win the game tonight, and he missed some shots he normally makes. Also, those on here who questioned the pickup at the time were dead-on balls accurate. Jamison is a liability on defense, and that killed the Cavs. That, and Lebron’s crab-dribbling, whining, nail-biting choke job!!!!
the other thing about the gilbert point -
and i do think it at least makes you think twice – but these guys are all 3 years older now, and are not the players they were during the playoff years in DC. skills are starting to diminish. maybe a 26 year old butler is better for dallas, and a 30 year old jamison doesn’t get quite as badly abused.
"how ironic - you came here with a mouse in a bottle, now YOU are the mouse in the bottle" - B.M. Smith
by little stevie colter on May 14, 2010 12:11 AM EDT reply actions
Yeah, it was more food for thought
I’m not definitely saying anything one way or the other. It is interesting, though, because it does shed the “Gilbert doesn’t make teammates better like LeBron” myth, to a degree.
Hughes wasn't bad before Gil
He was on the upside of his career when Gil came here and was playing well. He was just really miscast in Cleveland, and those were the last productive years for him as a player. Hughes made Gil better, too, not just the other way around.
Larry Hughes' career arc disagrees with that statement
Check out this page. Go to advanced. Look for the one outlier.
Maybe I didn't read the stats well
But they seemed to support my statement. His effeciency rating was good right through his time in Washingotn and then dipped while he was in Cleveland.
There's one year where his PER was 21.6
There’s no other year it was above 17.6, and there are a couple years prior to Cleveland where it’s under 15.
and
REALLY – there was only one year where Larry Hughes was seriously considered for an All-Star berth.
I won’t back off my statement – I believe that Arenas DOES make the players around him better…. I mean come on…. Jarred Jeffries a starting Shooting Guard? DeShawn Stevenson? Larry Hughes considered for All-Star? Butler blowing up and becoming an All-Star AFTER he comes to Washington to play with Arenas? Jarvis Hayes? Etan Thomas as a starting Center?
Most of those players wouldn’t even be in the regular rotation on other teams… much less starting…. but next to Arenas, they were good enough to get to the Playoffs.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Even Turner makes players around him better
Gilbert Areanas makes players around him better
those two would turn into Gold in the backcourt
Please Lord lets us land a top 2 pick for Even Turner
by eltacoman on May 14, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, but the east was weak
Just going through some of those names made me cringe. Most of them are barely scratching up playing time with the teams they’re on. But I would contend that the East was pretty weak at that time, so a lot of those players were playing against pretty inferior teams.
Bulls Ballboy releases a statement
“Victorrrrryyyyyyyyyyyy”
by morethesamewiz on May 14, 2010 12:25 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Anyone up for naming Lebron, “The Jester”. At least for tonight we can pretend he doesn’t go by “The King”.
by purpleonblack86 on May 14, 2010 1:15 AM EDT reply actions
Don't forget about Eddit Jordan :)
EJ got fired after one season in Philly.
Could Arenas have made EJ and his Princeton look & work better than it would have this decade?
I am glad to see the Gilbert Love here...
Because Gilbert is gonna be here a while.
As for Cleveland… well every country has to have a Cleveland.
by khrabb on May 14, 2010 4:31 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
History suggests
That, for whatever reasons, Arenas won’t ever be here for another full season.
What does it all mean?
While watching this series, I spent a lot of time thinking about what this all means for my team, the Wizards. I certainly don’t have all the answers, but have the following thoughts:
- Watching Jamison struggle at this level of the playoffs wasn’t surprising to me — he is a nice player, but he is not a championship level player. Dallas pegged him properly, an effective off-the-bench scorer. Jamison has still never gotten out of the second round.
- How could Ernie Grunfeld, Jamison, and anyone else in the Wizards organization who is supposed to know basketball feel last spring, summer and fall that the Wizards were championship contenders? Coming off 19-63? With the star player returning from two years off due to injury? With the roster they had? With the defense they had? Recall that Gilbert and Haywood said, when asked about whether the Wizards could contend, well, let’s not get ahead of ourselves.
- Jamison especially should have known, because he is on the court. He played on a U.S. World Championship team, so he practiced with the best of the best. He should have known that those guys were on a higher plane. When you play a sport, you know who is better. You feel it. You may think with the right chemistry, game plan, and some good fortune, you can topple a better player and team, but you know who is better. How could Jamison really have believed the Wizards were title contenders, especially after getting pummelled the season before to the tune of 19-63? And how Grunfeld? (Maybe because Pollin wanted to believe it.)
- Defense. Defense, defense, defense. Boston and Orlando, both outstanding defensive teams. Tom friggin Thibodeau. (Eddie Jordan — you are an idiot.) If the Wizards want to compete in the playoffs, it is time to get real about defense. When we discuss draft picks in the coming months, I don’t want to hear about how the Wizards should take so and so with the #30 and #34 picks because he is good scorer. I want to hear how he is a lockdown defender, a monster rebounder, etc.
- On that note, if you think that Andray Blatche is a cornerstone piece of a great team, you are fooling yourself. Blatche is an o.k. defender, a talented player, and I believe he has a place on a very good team. But it certainly is not as a cornerstone piece, and it might not even be as a starter (though he is still young and has room to grow).
- Gilbert, if you want to fully redeem yourself to this town, become a great defender. Not just someone who finally tries on defense. A great defender.
I’ll quit there. Your thoughts?
by disgrunted on May 14, 2010 7:49 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Disagree mostly
Players don’t “know” who is the best of the best, because that changes over time. And circumstance. James would be no more famous a player than Chris Bosh without the PR hype of the league and official tolerance for his traveling. All these guys have huge egos; none are objective about their abilities, whatever they may say to the press. The all-star appearances, the scoring averages, etc. are all tools for their agents to use in making more money for them. Jamison has been a consummate professional in exploiting this system, and in his eyes he’s as good a player as anyone else. Butler seems to view his own abilities even more kindly. All the statements they made about championships were the kind of bull that comes out of most franchises every summer; they were talking the same way in Portland and Golden State last year. That’s to attract fans to buy season tickets.
As for Blatche, the jury’s still out. He has all the tools to be a cornerstone player for a franchise—including a vastly overlooked improvement in defense last season as a starter. The difference between his D on Garnett and that of Jamison was like night and day. If his mental adjustment this season is as great as his physical, then yeah, he will become a second (again) Chris Bosh for some team. I hope it’s for ours.
Where we can agree is on Grunfeld’s stupidity in letting Jordan run Thibodeaux out of town. That was both bizarrely unprofessional and a clear signal to anyone who knows the sport that the franchise was in deep trouble down the road.
Why would players not know who is the best of the best?
They play against them night in and night out. Of course that changes, but then people would change their mind accordingly, right? And why would Chris Bosh be a more popular player than Lebron without the stats? If we were going without the stats for popularity, Bosh would be a cellar dwellar, he hasn’t one a thing of note. James on the other hand at least stays in the conversation of winning players and teams.
seewhite
have you ever played basketball competively or do you watch basketball in person much? From you comments, i doubt it.
Warriors guard Monta Ellis has his own opinion on who should be ranked as the NBA’s three best players.
"I’m going to say LeBron James," Ellis said recently. "He can do it all, pass, score, defend, block shots. No. 2, I would have to say, me. I can do a whole lot of things: defend, score, make passes, do whatever I need to do.
"No. 1, I’d say Kobe Bryant. There isn’t one player that can stop Kobe one-on-one. He has a lot of stuff. He can defend. And of course, he won four championships."
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=mc-afterthebuzzer032610
tw10
I played basketball in high school but then only played street ball after that. I have season tickets to the wizards and even find my way to UMD for games on occaison. Does that entitle me to my opinion, Pat Riley, or is there something else you need? Oh, and I wear GIlbert Arenas underoos and I own an original pair of Karl Malone LA Gears. Whatchoo think of that?
I'm fairly certain that someone
who has dedicated his entire life on this board to slamming Gilbert Arenas is throwing some rocks in a glass house.
Keep it civil there champ.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
what the hell
did I do? All I do is express my opinion here. If I am critical of Arenas and his game that is because I love him in this town and I think he has squandered a lot of his best years and hasn’t maximized his talent. And I’m not the one asking for credentials. I could be a blind and in a wheel chair and can still have an opinion about Arenas or anyone else. Yeeesh.
He's talking to tw
Regardless, we’re done discussing each other’s fan credentials. We’re all fans. We’re all entitled to talk. The end.
Re: defense, defense, defense...
Defense is important, no doubt. Is it more important than offense? Not sure. As Hollinger says, your offense is my defense. Cleveland plays great defense for the most part. Their whole problem revolves around offense, not defense. Ya gotta have both.
Great offensive teams can have average defense and win a championship, and vice-versa. But the Wiz never even got to average on D. Cavs, when LeBron was off, were much less than average on offense. That was Mike Brown’s great failing, one I think he never learned to address.
Agree with it all
But especially the defense. I do believe that players can get better and change their games somewhat, so I was always hopeful that Arenas coud become a good defender, but that is all out the window now. He’s going to have to work his butt off just to get to ninety percent of what he was, and his defense will always be atrocious. If your best player has no commitment to defense then the rest of the team will take his cue. That is really what is going to hold Arenas back, what holds back a lot of great teams and great players.
This is the problem
If your best player has no commitment to defense then the rest of the team will take his cue. That is really what is going to hold Arenas back, what holds back a lot of great teams and great players.
Arenas is still the best player on our team. This always has been our problem. I know everyone wants to take the slow rebuild approach like OKC, but we have a top 5 pick in a draft that is supposed to have 5 potential superstars. We have room for a max deal. If we utilize both wisely, Arenas can instantly become our 3rd best player. Blatche is much more attractive as the 4th best player on your team than your bread and butter. Take the ball out of Gil’s hand and give it to a real PG like Livingston or John Wall. Go sign Amare so that we have a nightmare to match up against with him and Blatche. Bottom line is that the Wiz need to improve the overall talent level of this squad.
I am not in favor of signing a max or even high priced free agent this summer, but your argument for why the Wizards should is the best one I’ve seen.
If we get a high pick
Then it’s a whole different ball game. If it works out then we will have someone to take the pressure off of GIl, not only in the scoring department but in the expectation department as well. If the fans have something to look forward too every night as far as watching a player develop, they will be a lot less likely to vent frustration at Arenas if he is not playing well. As for signing a max guy, I just don’t see any scenario where that is going to happen. We’re not going to get James or Wade, and Stoudemire and Johnson scare me. Two guys on the team who have huge question marks and are making max deals? You could handcuff your team for years if something like that doesn’t work out.
I agree up to a point
Its hard for me to wrap my head around what just happened. The Celtic’s were the better team, but to see rejuvenated to this degree is astounding.
Think about it
-KG was cooked as of January. Suddenly, he looks borderline unstoppable
- Both of Ray Allen’s ankles have held up.
- Pierce played the worst of the three, but still woke up for the 3rd quarter.
The Celtic’s have basically had the opposite of Wizards luck. Career altering injury for KG? Nah. History of medical problems with Allen and Pierce reemerging? Nah.
Had any of the guys played for the Wiz, there would have been mass amputations by this point.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Especially when we made them look so bad
Matchups are a hell of a thing in the NBA. We can make the Celtics look bad. Although to be fair, a lot of teams were making the Celtics look bad too. I thought they were cooked, but the THREE DAY layoff between games is a real boon to them.
We made them look bad, I think, because of our frontcourt athleticism
Cleveland, meanwhile, played Shaq and Jamison. Amare would have killed the Cs.
Yes
I’m not sure why they never tried a front court of Vareajeo and Hickson. They needed someone who could bring some enthusiasm to guarding Garnett. Jamison and O’Neal both just looked resigned to getting scored on a few times.
every pundit in existence
seemed to gather and agree that Hickson “wasn’t any good.” Which is strange considering they were all falling over backwards to congratulate Cleveland for not giving him up at the trade deadline.
Perkins, when he came into the league, was considered a lump as well. I think both Moon and Hickson should have received more burn.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
It couldn't be sweeter
After all the tail kissing of LeBron and Cleveland that, young player denigrating, no-defense playing, entitled Carolina mafia member still doesn’t have a title and will be playing in Cleveland without LeBron next year in front of a half-empty arena. Enjoy it you Tar Heel spud!
"I say he does have to shoot me now! So shoot me now!" --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on May 14, 2010 8:15 AM EDT reply actions
I thought it was strange
When after the trades, people were claiming to keep rooting for those players. This kind of bitterness and schadenfreude is much more my style.
by Palace of Good Play's Golden Toilet on May 14, 2010 8:26 AM EDT reply actions
Agree....
I rooted for all of them to fail miserably. (I would’ve rooted for Cleveland to fail anyway) Maybe it was because of the statements that they made about their new teams about this is what “championship ball” looks like or this is a “real organization” or “its great to be on a contender now”. Those were slaps in the face to me as a fan, and now look at them none of them got further than they did with the Wiz and they all showed (with the exception of Brendan) that they were part of the demise of their teams and not the missing piece.
by SkinsWizStangs on May 14, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
If LeBron
Heads to the Knicks it may also see T-Mac coming alive again.
Jamison folded!
Dude just doesn’t have the heart of a champion, even if he is a quality guy. Amazing how a change of scenery can help you to see the truth. I’m sad that we gave away our No. 5 pick last year for the sake of that disillusionment, but we’re better off now.
I will say, though, AJ would still be a great help to a championship-caliber team, but coming off the bench for 20 mins a game. Some team like the Lakers with no qualms about money might give Cleveland a bunch of junk for him over the offseason.
I must've had my Wizards rose-colored glasses on...
I knew that he was some what of a liability on defense but the Celtice EXPOSED Jamison. I guess him having a Washington uniform on blinded me to some major flaws, but I noticed it in FULL EFFECT vs. Boston.
by SkinsWizStangs on May 14, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I disagree
Jamison is awful, but so is the decision to put LeBron and Jamison out there with Shaq. How is Jamison going to slash with Shaq’s bulbous carcass clogging the lane. You basically traded for Jamison to become a glorified three point specialist, and that was never his game.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
He just can't guard anybody
Not in the post, not on the perimeter, he’s just so damn awkward. Those kinds of weird off balance drives work for him on offense, but for defense he is just always a step slow.
Lebron with Antawn (and Derrick Rose?)
When Jamison got traded, I was puzzled by the description of him as a “stretch” 4. Yes, he hit the occasional 3, but that wasn’t really his game. I think many of us on this board felt like he shot the 3 too much. When I think Jamison, I think close in scoop shots, not jumpers. So I’m not surprised that he didn’t mesh well with the Cavs “offense”.
Now the pundits are talking about Lebron heading to Chicago where he can play with Derrick Rose. But given that the Cleveland offense revolved around Lebron pounding the rock, and either taking the jumper or driving for either a shot or a dish, I have a hard time seeing him relinquish all of the ball handling duties to Rose (or any “true” point guard). It would definitely require a major adjustment to his game.
by hotplate on May 14, 2010 10:55 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree with Rose
That’s the thing about LeBron – he’s so unique that it’s hard to find guys who fit with him. Mo Williams is the model here, and Mo Williams just isn’t that great.
Arenas is a superior Mo Williams
and would be one of those hard to find guys that fit Lebron. I feel the same way about how Blatche would complement Lebron better than Jamison. He’s a guy that can pick and pop or roll. I actually think our roster would be a good fit for Lebron (despite the current Lebron hate).
I dunno
Blatche doesn’t dive down the lane for dunks, and Arenas does like having the ball in his hands a lot.
John Wall is the only way Lebron comes
so Gil’s like of having the ball is already something that would have to be addressed and he’d likely move to the 2. Winning the lottery is the only way Lebron even becomes a discussion. And Blatche can do a lot more for Lebron than what he got out of Jamison.
Lebron is NOT coming to DC.
In addition, he is not going to make a decision based on a college freshman. He has players like Wade and Bosh he could team with. Waiting around for a kid to come around is contrary to both his interests and his ego.
by MR on May 14, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Right now Chicago is considered the favorite
And I don’t see how we’re not more attractive than Chicago if we win the lottery. Wall is considered to be in the Chris Paul/Derron Williams echelon and possibly better than Rose. How is Wall/Arenas/Blatche not more attractive than Rose/Deng/Noah? And Deng plays his position. Plus we still have plenty of assets to continue making moves such as our two large cap exceptions.
Where should I start?
Wall = unproven commodity
Rose = proven and improving
Chicago = legacy of success and championships of the greatest player of a generation (who Lebron wants to supplant)
Washington = legacy of failure and humiliating dismissal of greatest player of a generation
Chicago = openly wooing Lebron and stroking his ego
Wasington = a team Lebron has a distinct dislike for
Chicago = holding off on choosing a coach so Lebron could handpick one
Washington = has a coach that Lebron would have to live with or be blamed for having fired
Chicago = on the road to rebuilding
Washington = still tearing down
Chicago = best player is young and would play the Robin role
Washington = best player is a loose cannon with a huge and unpredictable ego
Chicago = had a decent season and showing signs of breakthrough
Washington = had the worst season in modern pro history by some standards. in total rebuild mode.
Chicago = not the real front runner
Washington = has no chance
Put it this way: don’t you think Clippers fans are having the same rose colored discussion on their board? Don’t you think they are crazy? Why would Lebron come to the Clippers of the east? Smaller town, less building blocks, no Hollywood. He might as well go to the real Clippers.
by MR on May 14, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
In response
John Wall is considered a better prospect than Derrick Rose or Deron Williams. Who was the last truly elite PG prospect that didn’t live up to the hype?
Chicago’s legacy seems to be a negative since no matter what, he wouldn’t be able to match MJ. Where as here, Lebron can do what MJ couldn’t.
Lebron has shown no interest in Chicago. While he’s antagonized the Wiz, he loves DC. Said its one of his 5 favorite cities. Plus DC can do as much to promote Lebron the icon as Chicago.
Rumor is that his hand picked coach would be Calipari. Look at your first example. Failed NBA coach vs. coach with a proven record of success. Flip’s resume is as good as any coach out there.
Chicago’s road to rebuilding would look bad if they didn’t luck up in the lottery and get Rose. Same situation here. The way Lebron turned around the Cavs fortune and Rose did the same for Chicago, why wouldn’t it be the same with Wall?
The Robin role would be John Wall in this situation. He’s the one to compare to Rose. I think comparing Gil to Deng would fit this example better. Then you compare Blatche to Noah.
Gil will be the only returning starter from the 2009 season opener. The whole point is to revamp the roster.
Wow, it bugs me when fans are always in despair about their team. All it takes is one ping pong ball to change the fortune of a franchise. The NBA is the only league that can make it happen like that. If we get John Wall, our roster is just as attractive as any other landing spot for Lebron.
I think the Clippers don’t have a chance at John Wall. Look at what Chris Paul did for the Hornets or Durant for the Thunder. I’m not saying Lebron comes here if we get Demarcus Cousins or Evan Turner, but right now, New Jersey is considered a serious contender for Lebron because they are favored to get John Wall. If we win the lottery, then it is time to seriously consider wooing Lebron.
Thank you for your concern, but I'm not in despair
I just don’t think Lebron would come to DC, nor do I want him. I don’t see any angle, any reason, anything that the Wiz offer at the moment that another team doesn’t offer better.
The storied Knicks in megalopolis New York City. The Bulls own their town. Starting a new franchise in Brooklyn. The glamour of Miami. The attraction of Hollywood. The hometown Cavs.
Why would he come to DC?
by MR on May 15, 2010 7:33 AM EDT up reply actions
The Wiz offer the best combo of everything
The DC area is the 8th largest market in the country. We can offer a max deal. We can offer as much surrounding talent. He’s already said that he likes DC more than Miami, Chicago, or Cleveland. His 5 favorite cities are DC, NYC, LA, Dallas and Akron. He can make tremendous connections in the nation’s capital. Also, honestly, you can’t downplay the “Chocolate City” factor and how attractive that is to a young, black man.
The only factor that is a knock against us is that this is a Redskins town, but at the same time, this is a basketball city. I think a lot of people’s pain at Lebron dominating the Wiz has led them to dislike him and feel that DC isn’t a potential landing spot, but the Wizards as an organization offer him everything that he’s looking for. If we get John Wall. So we will see after Tuesday night.
This gets rec'd
Because I never understood how people could consider Jamison a great stretch 4. After years of watching him, I never felt entirely comfortable when he pulled up to take a 3. Why overpay for someone when that isn’t their specialty? Why not just pick up someone like Kapono on the cheap? Or god help me, Miller.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Karma for being a team player and an all-around good guy? Not buying it.
Karma as some sort of curse for ever donning a Wizards jersey? Maybe…
DC Landing Strip - Waxed and Ready to Go
If there is such a thing as karma, it applies to good guys too.
He wanted to be traded from a poor team, of which he was an integral part, to go to his rival team in the hopes that they were good enough to get him a ring.
On Wall
Would the Clippers come into the Lebron market if they landed Wall or Turner,
They have a tonne of cap space some nice pieces Kaman, Griffin, Gordon and
play in a big media market plus the added incentive of going head to head with Kobe
in the division.
Not unless they got a new owner
Not going to trust Donald Sterling to keep the checkbook open long enough to build a contender for the long haul.
I think what gets lost in this
is that it is in our best interests if Lebron stays with the Cavs, because he has proven that the team as currently comprised can lose. I personally do not want to see him in Chicago with Rose and Noah, because that team could be a dynasty, and as a sports fan, there are few things I hate more than dynasties. I know that sportwriters love them, but I doubt Simmons would slobber as much on the 1986 Celtics and that era of Celtics teams if he weren’t a Boston fan. As a basketball fan, the years of Bulls/Spurs/Lakers domination bored me to no end. Which is why, when Detroit put a stake through that Laker dynasty, I was really stoked.
So Lebron, stay put. Enjoy two more years of AJ. Hopefully we will have rebuilt enough by that point for you to see us off in the first round again.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
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