Tired(tank)tastic: Wizards run out of gas against Nuggets
by Mike Prada on Mar 16, 2010 11:35 PM EDT
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Earlier today, in this week's SB Nation Power Rankings, I tried to define seven different levels of tanking. There's really nothing wrong with tanking, as long as we don't take the phrase to literally mean "throwing games." Obviously, it has to be in degrees. Level one was doing nothing, level two was making a salary dump, level three is elevating a guy you want to evaluate for next year into the rotation (like with Shaun Livingston), level four is playing the young guys, level five is playing some random veteran over a clearly superior player, level six is holding out players with "injuries" and level seven is actually intentionally losing. (Sorry, long sentence). I'm fine with levels one through four, iffy with level five and not cool with six and seven.
Why do I bring this up? This loss smelled a bit like a Level Five job. Earl Boykins had no business being in this game, and frankly, it's odd that Shaun Livingston barely played in the second half. When Livingston went out, things really became problematic. Nobody ran the offense, and the guys who needed to get involved got involved. I can't believe I'm saying this, but screw the knee - Livingston needs to be out there more often than he has been. We have no other way to figure out what we have when our other nominal point guards dribble the hell out of the ball.
Honestly, they probably would have lost anyway, but considering how well they played early on, it's distressing to see it all fall apart late. Even if it's totally understandable.
On the bright side, Alonzo Gee played well. So there's that.
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Out of curiosity from someone that doesn't closely follow the Wizards
Why is Al Thornton’s minutes so limited?
I meant more in general than in this specific game
In the Utah game, Thornton played only 25min. Why? Sometimes I feel like even when he’s not in foul trouble, he’s not given enough minutes and shots (that might just be because I have him on my fantasy team).
He Plays Small Forward
So does Singleton, sometimes. So does Mike Miller, sometimes. So does Alonzo Gee. So does half the prospects in the D-League that we want to try out. I don’t think its because Thornton hasn’t been playing well. I just think we realize that the season is lost and we want to audition a bunch of other guys.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Ah, thanks
That makes sense. I was a little confused as to why they were giving him less minutes, and Blatche more minutes if it was for the sake of resting players during blowout games. You would think that the Wizards would take minutes away from Miller to work on developing future guards, but I don’t know the team well enough to make such judgement. Anyway, thanks for answering my question.
Seriously....
It was ridiculous seeing Boykins get all of those 4th quarter minutes. I thought we were done with that since Livingston came to town. Apparently not, and now I’m having scary flashbacks of Earl being in for the fourth quarter in the early part of the year. Out of all of the many things that happened this year to the Wizards, Earl Boykins will definitely be one thing that stands out to me when I look back at this disappointing season
by SkinsWizStangs on Mar 16, 2010 11:41 PM EDT reply actions
Well, We Were Competitive
Were you shocked? Overall, I thought our guys played really well until that last part of the 4th quarter. Then Flip cracked a cold one, kicked back, and exclaimed, “it’s Boykins time!”
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Mar 16, 2010 11:41 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Going from watching Arenas drop 45 points and 14 assists getting his speed back underhim and the veterons I was used to, to watching earl boykins and Earl boykins deficts is enough to garner a bag over my head followed by a jump off a cliff. Jeez please trade the guy.
by Unxpekted on Mar 17, 2010 1:27 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Thornton played Melo well I thought
"I am excited about starting 2009. We are looking forward to an outstanding year. We're on our way. We have a lot of healthy players this year." - Vinny Cerrato
Come on, Mike -- you're better than that
“Screw the knee”? Why don’t you go out and play 5 NBA games in 6 nights, on a healthy body, let alone one with a reconstructed knee, and see how you feel in game 5. It’s easy kicking back on our sofas to think these guys are robots, and when they are a little sluggish, to think it’s always because they don’t want it enough. For once, I give Flip credit for watching out for the health of his players. Didn’t we all criticize EJ and Flip when he played Butler and Jamison 40+ minutes all the time?
There's watching out for his knee, and there's not playing him the entire second half
And since I didn’t hear about any immediate health issues, I’m going to wonder why he didn’t at least take some of Earl’s minutes during that key stretch.
Besides, you could easily make the reverse argument that Livingston needs to play to get healthier so he can get into a rhythm and understand how to push his body.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
i think you need to look at the number of minutes he played over the last 10 straight days rather than focus on one game. is he practicing too? or doing his own workouts? for once, i think this call was a bit premature. but your overall body of work is six stars out of five!
by les boulez bomber on Mar 17, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
They haven't practiced in forever
Because of all the games.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Screw the knee
Those words might seem a bit harsh, but the concept is right. Flip needs to find out this year if the kid’s knee is sound or not by inceasing his work over time, not decreasing it like he has the last three games. He needs to be given a chance to work through his rough spots, not be yanked. I don’t think he’ll be a big scorer, but that’s not what this team needs out of him, they just need him to run the offense effectively…and that he should be able to do.
Gee looked good again, hopefully Flip will keep giving him 20+ minutes a game.
Livingston is getting plenty of time to be evaluated for next season. He got 20 mins last night. He’ll get more other nights. I don’t think the goal should be to push that knee to see if Livingston can get starter mins next season. See how far we can bend him till he breaks. No thanks.
Livingston is coming back from a very nasty knee injury. For right now the Wizards should be very content if in Livingston they have an excellent back-up point guard for next season (that can also slide Arenas over to SG on offense from time to time). I’d rather see Livingston prove his knee can hold out while playing that role (still a question mark!!!), before we test him further with 30+ mins per game. Rebuilding requires some patience.
That said, my point above isn’t at all an argument against Prada’s suggestion that Livingston’s minutes last night also represent tanking by the Wizards, which may also be true.
by Johnnie Futbol on Mar 17, 2010 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I think if they were truly tanking
Blatche never would have stepped back on the floor after he hurt his ankle. Even if it was only for a couple of minutes.
I’m not talking about 40+ minutes a game right now, but if he played 30 the other night and didn’t experience any problems I don’t see why he can’t keep his minutes around that level for a couple of games instead of a drop-off to 20 minutes. Now if there was soreness that wasn’t reported, then definitely sit him. This isn’t about breaking the kid, I like Livingston and want him to stick, but knowing what he can and can’t do will help in the decision of signing him and what his role can/will be.
My comment about working through the rough spots, was meant about his game, not playing through pain if he is hurt. If he feels fine, let him play through his mistakes, don’t bench him for Boykins or
Foye(of course it could have been a tanking ploy as Prada suggests).
Hopefully Arenas can make it through next season with no problems(health or legal), that can only benefit the team. But considering his recent history there is a good chance he could miss a big chunck of games and the backup PG will need to start. Knowing if Livingston can play 30 minutes a game consistently would greatly increase his chances of being on the team next year.
It’s not about a lack of patience…it seems like this team has been in rebuilding mode for the last 30 years(making the playoffs with a sub .500 record isn’t really a success if you don’t make it out of the first round), minus a few bright spots…at least that’s how it has felt. This is about knowing who can contribute what to next year’s team and if they deserve a place on it.
by Mike Uhrich on Mar 17, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
But Livingston doesn’t need to play 30 mins per night regularly to prove he belongs on this team. And the Wizards shouldn’t be testing him to see if he’s capable of that. Last night’s game was the 5th in 6 nights. That’s a ridiculous amount of basketball in less than a week. Sometimes it’s not a question of whether the knee is sore, tight or feels good. You just understand that the more minutes the more strain, and there’s a threshold you don’t want to go over. Livingston’s threshold needs to be lower than the other players right now, which doesn’t mean he can’t be valuable for next season.
by Johnnie Futbol on Mar 17, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Those are valid concerns,
but when do you stop being afraid of giving him more playing time?
If he is playing now without any pain, swelling, soreness, tightness, etc… any discomfort at all…and you still don’t trust his knee, when will you? I haven’t seen or read anything about the team limiting Shaun due to a doctor’s recommendation(obviously that doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist, but you would think that information would have got out by now) which should suggest he is medically cleared to play without limitations. With no reported problems concerning his knee from playing. When do you finally let him prove that his knee is sound enough to play as needed?
The same concerns about his knee could be used to limit his summer playing time or playing time next year. At some point he needs to “push his limits” to show everyone he can do it.
Having a player that you are afraid of letting on the court for an extra minute(regardless if it’s 10, 20 or 30 minutes) because you think he might blow his knee out isn’t the best use of a roster spot, and if the situation is that precarious then they should consider shutting him down completely until he is healthy enough to play without worry.
But when would that be?
At some point, yes
Next year, if Gilbert gets caught juggling grenades for example, the Wizards are in playoff contention, and Livingston has passed every “test” by that time, then that would definitely be a time to consider “pushing” Livingston (given the medical team deems him fit).
There’s no good answer to when to push Livingston, that’s dependent on a lot of variables, and will probably depend on the instincts of the Wizards. But it seems to me that there’s little reason to push Livingston right now, so early in his return. And arguably he is getting pushed right now based on the fact that it’s still questionable whether his knee will continue to hold up when regularly played 20 mins per game.
by Johnnie Futbol on Mar 17, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Screw the knee is right this season
I wanna push him to the limit. If he does, and his knee goes out on him, then that is better than taking it easy on him and figuring out in the next few years, when we are relying on him to play an important rule on this team, that his knee isn’t fine. That might not be Livingston’s view, but if his knee is still an issue, we need to find out now, so we don’t keep paying the man, and we can find another PG. That may be harsh, but this sport is also a business.
The more balls the better... ping-pong balls, that is.
by returnofswagger on Mar 17, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
And if the Wizards disregard Livingston's health
why exactly will Livingston resign with the Wizards next season?
If the guy played 40 minutes a game
and is healthy, then he doesn’t have anything to be upset about. But if his knee can’t handle it and he goes down again, then we didn’t want him on the roster anyway. I don’t mean to sound like, “who cares about his health?” and a consciousless a-hole, but that’s kind of how it has gotta be.
The more balls the better... ping-pong balls, that is.
by returnofswagger on Mar 17, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Screw the knee?
Does nobody remember Grant Hill? Gilbert Arenas?
Push too hard too early on an injury and you can make things worse. It’s not a matter of whether he will be able to take it next year. It’s a matter of sign a guy who is recovering and hasn’t played in a while and throw him in to 25+ minutes five or six times in a week right away. That’s just not smart.
Correct me if I'm wrong
but wasn’t the knee injury three years ago? If it’s not healed now, it never will be, and we should find that out.
by Palace of Good Play's Golden Toilet on Mar 17, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
He just had staples removed not that long ago
So I’m not really sure where that knee stands right now
Didn't know that
Here’s a quote from James Andrews on Nov. 17 about the surgery.
“Shaun Livingston had successful minor arthroscopic surgery on his left knee,” Andrews said in a statement released by the Thunder. “His knee surfaces and previously repaired ligaments look excellent. He should be back to 100 percent in a few weeks.”
by Palace of Good Play's Golden Toilet on Mar 17, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
minor arthroscopic surgery
Typical on a knee reconstruction…. Usually to remove excess scar tissue, and to flush out any debris…. smooth out any rough spots on the surfaces, etc…..
I had a reconstruction done in 1972… Medial Collateral Ligament was surgically mended (it was broken in two), Lateral collateral Ligament was mended (it was torn).. Part of the Medial Meniscus was removed, and a screw was inserted to fix a broken patella.
About a year later, I had the first minor procedure done – (at that time they didn’t have arthroscopes, so they just re-opened the knee – and removed excess scar tissue.
I’ve had it done 3 times since – all by arthroscope… Typically, normal activities can resume almost immediately (a few days) after the arthroscope procedure (walking, stairs, etc…) but sports, or more strenuous activities takes a bit longer….
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