Mark Heisler of LA Times is reporting that NBA has informed other teams that it won't let Z return to Cavs after a buyout.
Adrian Wojnarowski. Well well well. Woj has more on his Twitter, where he says the Wizards and Ilgauskas continue to have discussions on a buyout.
almost 2 years ago
Mike Prada
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does the league have the right to enforce something like this?
i mean, isn’t this a matter between the player and the team?
not if there's a pre-arranged deal between Z and the Cavs, I think.
However, that should be hard to prove and in the past the NBA didn’t really care about that stuff.
But still it would be nice if the Cavs have to rely on Shaq as their only Center.
"My Swag Was Phenomenal"
I think they're catching a lot of grief...
East GMs are complaining that this trade is BS (a la LA’s Gasol heist), and if Z goes back to CLE there’s going to be a lot of drama. They’re trying to (under the radar) discourage it.
As far as enforcement – if Z gets picked up somewhere else (likely) it’ll end up being a non-story. From what I can tell the only way for it to blow up in their face is if nobody wants him or if he doesn’t want to go anywhere else.
For the record, I personally think the trade is fine, but that players should not be allowed to re-sign with their old team in the same season they are traded (as opposed to the 30 days). It’s disingenuous, and encourages the nod-wink trades. I also really enjoyed Doc Rivers comments on the trade: He really enjoyed it when Gary Payton did it (with the Celtics) but now he thinks it’s a load of crap (with Z and the Cavs).
I agree RamV
Take away the incentive.
Hey, doesn’t Z’s eagerness to leave actually put us in a favorable bargaining position? It’s such a foreigh place for the Wizards these days.
by ReboundingLs on Feb 21, 2010 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
I do sympathize with Cavs fans to an extent
It does seem kind of annoying that they’re being singled out as the team where the trend needs to stop.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
If not...
The trade equals out to AJ and Telfair for Preldzic’s rights and the 29 or 30 pick. That would make me a lot more sympathetic to Magic/Celtics/Hawks/Lakers fans.
I'm sympathetic to them too
And someone’s got to be the one that’s made an example of. I just get why Cavs fans are annoyed.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
yeah i hate to be sympathetic to Cavs fans
but Z seems like a good dude, and is beloved there. and it seems wrong to all stop this move. say you’re going to stop these things from happening BEFORE the deadline. that only seems fair, even if the loophole needs to be shut.
"how ironic - you came here with a mouse in a bottle, now YOU are the mouse in the bottle" - B.M. Smith
by little stevie colter on Feb 21, 2010 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
Look, they traded Z for Jamison
They should be happy with that. If it was so important to them and to their fans to keep him then they SHOULDN’T HAVE TRADED HIM. Sorry to shout, but it seems pretty clear to me.
by RamV on Feb 21, 2010 9:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I will say that the headline on that Fear the Sword article about Z is laughable
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
The first four comments on that Fear the Sword article...
…kind of embody my experience with Clevelanders in general and the current crop of Cavs fans in particular. I went to school in north-central Ohio in the late 1990s – the Bob Sura/Brevin Knight years when most of the current crop of Cavs fans wouldn’t be caught dead at the Gund – and I know this is a tad unfair, but it’s hard to be sarcastic about anything in that part of the country.
When I drove up there to watch a Wizards road game in 2007, I kept calling Brendan Haywood “the franchise,” and people thought I was being serious. This season, I let out a couple of “witness!” hoots when Boykins hit shots against the Cavs, and the Cavs fans behind me at the VC were seriously flummoxed. “Is he saying ‘witness’…for Boykins??” My favorite, though, was yelling “go yankees!” for LeBron when he hit free throws. Again, the Cavs fans just didn’t seem to get it.
Again, I know I’m being unfair, but I think we know why there’s no CavsNutzz-type site out there. Even I got the reference to waitingtillnextyear in the comments, and I’m hardly a devout follower of the Cleveland sportsblog scene.
"the chevy chase bank deposit!"
by newmaniumreveler on Feb 22, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
I've always felt our fanbases are very similar
Both tend to get defensive over everything because we’ve been forgotten. Remember, Cleveland’s basketball history is defined by losing to the Bulls all those years. I don’t think they’re used to being the golden child team.
The only difference is it seems there’s less of a self-reflexive “let’s laugh at ourselves” gene there, like there is for us. But again, that’s a generalization.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I have nothing against the Cavs or the good people of Cleveland, Ohio.
My beef is only with the big headed egomaniac classless travelling charging Lebron.
My dream scenario: Lebron leaves after this year’s finals disappointment and the Cavs get a ring (with AJ) the following year. (I mean unless it’s us getting a ring).
by MR on Feb 22, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
I have nothing against Cavs fans either
In fact, I identify with them in a lot of ways. That was more my point.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
And I probably sound a jerk. But I don't mean to!
I enjoyed my time in Ohio in college. The people that I met there are great. What I have an issue with is that the current crop of Cavs fans – at least the ones I’ve dealt with – behave like your stereotypical NY/Boston fan though. I feel for the long-suffering fanbases of the Browns and Indians, but I’ll basically never forgive Cavs fans for the awful treatment my wife, little sister and I had at the Q. The guy who sat next to us walked in, saw my Butler jersey, and said, “Oh, Wizards fan? I thought I smelld sh*t.” I literally laughed in disbelief because as a season ticketholder here in DC, I’d never dream of talking that way to a visiting team’s fans.
Granted, DC is a transient city, and in some senses it’s not fair to compare. But I’m always up for good-natured trashtalking. We were met with outright hostility though and were treated like a sideshow. I guess it must be nice to have that kind of homecourt advantage, but it stood in stark contrast to my previous experience of Ohio several years before. If any other Wizards fans went to a Wizards-Cavs game there between 2007 and 2009 and had a different experience, I’d love to hear about it because my wife, who basically cannot get excited for anything other than Virginia Tech football, still gets worked up about that game and about Cleveland fans.
"the chevy chase bank deposit!"
by newmaniumreveler on Feb 22, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
I've experienced way worse here in NY, mostly baseball though.
Sorry, not to diminish your terrible experience too.
by MR on Feb 22, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
Somebody has to be first
Poor them.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
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by Kyle Weidie on Feb 21, 2010 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
This is actually bad, if it happens
It totally messes up the league will do anything for Lebron argument and the Cavs get preferential treatment. :-)
But seriously though, there should be a precedent for deals like this, I feel like it is very wrong and messes up the integrity of trades. Hopefully the league will go through with this, so that deals like these can stop. And plus it screws the Cavs!!
The Cavs
Can have Antwan play center. Boo Hoo Cavs.
by Mikko Leinonen's opposite on Feb 21, 2010 11:02 PM EST via mobile reply actions
if it benefits both teams
what’s the problem?
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 22, 2010 12:28 PM EST reply actions
The problem is that most everybody wants a competitive league except
the top teams. The problem is that there are far too many trades that happen because one side wants/needs financial relief, and the other is creating an all-star team to gun for a championship.
All that is well and good as long as everyone is ok with a 6 team A-league and a 24 team glorified practice squad league. As a fan of the sport, I prefer parity, and the current system (which facilitates trades like these) is ruining the game for me.
The Jamison-Z trade, and several others (e.g. Gasol-Kwame…), are just really indicators of a larger issue. Its a self perpetuating situation where the LAs and the Bostons field better rosters in order to win more in order to generate more revenue in order to field better rosters in order to win more in order to generate more revenue… While the Indianas and Minnesotas of the league just try to get in the black, even if it means destroying the on-court product.
I understand its oversimplifying the issue but that’s at the heart of it for me.
jamison and Z are old
gary payton was old.
the gasol trade is a better example because he had several years left in him. despite marc gasol panning out, i still think that was a shocking trade. but this wasn’t that trade.
the cavs take a risk to get a championship (and they are taking a risk with that contract), the wiz start over. seems good for both teams.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 22, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree.
It was all about a one sided, ‘cost-be-damned’ effort to improve the on court product where the other side was trading for financial reasons. The only reason this is different than the gasol trade is that the objective was to win a championship this year (jamison) as opposed to being in contention for the next several years (gasol). And the fact that LeBronda may leave, adding to the urgency. In both cases, the trade partner intentionally weakened its on court product to save money. Both trades are symptoms of the same disease.
Call Me Crazy
I’ve already admitted to being insane, but I’m starting to think that Ernie didn’t intentionally weaken our on court product in this trade. Yes, we saved a boat load of cash, but I think we did it with a hidden goal of getting better a lot quicker. I think our new acquisitions will pan out quicker than Marc Gasol did for Memphis.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Crazy.
There I said it.
There’s no doubt in my mind that the talent level of the team went down as a result of the trades. Let’s all hope that the results continue to go up!
At the current pace (2 wins for every 3 games)
this team finishes 39-43 and just might sneak in…
I’ll welcome another shot at LeBronda… Call ME crazy!
wiz had to move AJ
it was in their long term interests. unquestionably.
AJ is old, only a contending team was going to take him on.
what is there to fix?
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 22, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
The idea that we would have a pre-arrangement to release Z so he could go back to Cleveland.
I think that’s the rub.
by MR on Feb 22, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
pre-arrangement or not
if it’s in our best interests to buyout and release Z then what’s the problem?
if it’s Z’s best option to go back to cleveland, then let him go back to cleveland. once we cut Z loose, he can do whatever he wants, right? we can at least give veterans that leeway. he’s earned it.
boston and the lakers, of all teams, should quit whining. i don’t hear any of the non-contenders complaining. it’s not like this move scares other teams long-term. but even that’s a non-issue.
parity is a problem simply b/c lebron james is so much better than everyone else in the nba. nba does a decent job of spreading around huge contracts. not sure how you fix parity otherwise. make lebron play with 20 pound weights strapped on? have the cavs start 10 points behind every game?
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 22, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
Remove the incentive for teams to conduct trades solely for financial reasons
that’s how.
The parity issue predates LeBron. Can’t put it on his shoulders.
Okay, so how exactly do you do that?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
besides pradas necessary question
i also dispute this is solely for cash money like you make it out to be. this will positively affect the long term play of the wizards on the court based on the team they can field from here.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 22, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
How About
not sure how you fix parity otherwise. make lebron play with 20 pound weights strapped on? have the cavs start 10 points behind every game?
Crazy suggestions here from a crazy guy. How about the NBA has the referee’s make these changes:
- Call traveling when LeBron takes more than 2 steps after picking up his dribble.
- Call charging when LeBron barrels into a player who has both feet set outside of the charge arc.
- Call technical fouls when LeBron gets into a referee’s face more than 5 times a game.
- Call fouls when LeBron goes over a player’s back while making excessive contact while attempting to block that player’s shot from behind.
- Call fouls when LeBron slaps a player across the arm while attempting to get a steal.
I know, I know, crazy, just crazy. I guess we’ll never have parity in this league.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
agreed on every suggestion
but i don’t think that will cut to the heart of the nba’s parity issue, the reason it’ll never be akin to the nfl. it’s a different beast.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 22, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
It's not the lack of competition, but rather the collusion
by MR on Feb 22, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
My two cents
(Literally)
1. This is obviously a problem that needs to be fixed. The loophole needs to be closed.
2. It’s somewhat unfair on some level to close that loophole right now and punish Cleveland for operating under a culture that’s prevailed for several years. The time to close that loophole is during CBA negotiations IMO.
(Okay, a third cent: Cleveland fans should stop acting as if the Wizards have a right to “bring Z home.” It’s a business, folks).
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Have past occurances been this obvious and over a player at that level?
I’m wondering.
by MR on Feb 22, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
The classic example is Gary Payton in Boston.
It was so egregious that they instituted the 30 day rule. One could argue McDyess was a key piece, but it turned out Detroit wasn’t good enough for it to matter.
i'm on the fence
any exchange that benefits both teams making the exchange, is by definition, a detriment to all other teams in the league. any trade is a “collusion” by that measure. but getting angry about two other teams making a good exchange is what’s hypocritical, because every team wants to have the opportunity to better itself through exchange.
closing that loophole might do more harm than good. if Z was an asset to us, we’d hold on to him. if we cut Z loose, by rule, he can go wherever he wants, and that’s how it should be. if he goes back to cleveland, so be it. it’s up to Z. i don’t see any of the other teams looking out for Z, they’re just looking out for themselves.
if this obviously wasn’t benefiting the wiz, and there was something fishy going on, (like joe smith taking WAY less money in a wink wink deal to get more later on), or if this was a case of some know-nothing in your fantasy league making a horrific deal (or two friends making a deal to pocket the winnings), then yeah, the outrage is warranted. as it stands, the wiz don’t get a share of anything the cavs may or may not win. i don’t think see a a legit gripe here. most of the teams in the league are probably fine with this deal.
if there is collusion here, it wouldn’t be between the wiz and the cavs, it’d be the cavs offering Z something under the table to make sure he comes back to cleveland. THAT would be worth penalizing.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 22, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
The problem then becomes enforcement
How do you figure out there’s a wink-wink deal in place when there’s only circumstantial evidence? That’s why I think you should just prevent buy out players returning to the teams that traded them until the following season.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I'm with Mike
And for me it’s even a fairness issue. You should not make it this easy for contenders to load up for the playoffs AND make it so dependent on luck. Let’s face facts, CLE knew that if Z were bought out he would come back to them – he’s a lifelong Cavalier and their championship contenders. They only needed to make sure he got bought out. I can’t think of a single reason to defend the practice.
cause then the wiz would be stuck with jamison's contract
it’s not just the cavs benefiting from this. wiz benefit too. so does Z. all parties involved in the exchange benefit. i don’t see what’s so shady about that.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 22, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
forgot the clippers
they benefited from this deal too.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 22, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
fair point
but every team in the league could offer the MLE to some dude and then pay him more under the table. the league is going to have to enforce things like that no matter what. so it doesn’t sway me.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 22, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
point #2 is the heart of this, i think
the time for changing the rules is not right after trade season. that’s the only thing i would think cav’s fans have a legitimate gripe about.
"how ironic - you came here with a mouse in a bottle, now YOU are the mouse in the bottle" - B.M. Smith
by little stevie colter on Feb 22, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
I'm guessing
that there is already a rule about this kind of under the table negotiation, one that has never been enforced before but is being mentioned now because of the situation and obviousness of the collusion.
I agree with Prada, I think bought out players shouldn’t be able to return to their original club for that year. Of course that may have meant that we would still have AJ. But there is a broader point than looking at our own place in the issue.
by MR on Feb 22, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
NBA just denied it'll bar Z from going back to cleveland
NBA says there is no evidence of collusion
and why would there be? the only thing that’s obvious here is that each step involved in this deal is completely reasonable and makes perfect sense.
the sequence of steps means Z ends up back in cleveland in this case, but what’s the alternative? you disallow bought out players from going back to the original team? if i’m cleveland, i scream bloody murder and say the wiz shouldn’t be allowed to buy the guy out then, which is ridiculous.
so then contending teams that make deals like this have to worry about essentially giving that guy up to another contender, rather than the team they traded him to? and they get no opportunity to sign the guy? that seems worse to me.
dallas said they were going to make Z an offer. that seems fair to me. maybe the celtics and lakers should try to woo the guy too. lakers arguably have the best chance to win the title, maybe Z should go there.
oh wait, cleveland has faithfully employed zee for like 10+ years? well, good for cleveland. good for Z. sometimes that pays off.
i guarantee the league has been through this debate ad-nauseum already. the only reason this is news is because the Celtics and Lakers whined about it. the freaking Celtics and Lakers! (notice that this was published in the LA Times. nobody else gives a shit.)
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 22, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
i really do think
this whole thing has more to do with the cost of taking on AJ’s contract than anything else. AJ had become a liability to the wiz. he’d be a liability to most other teams in the league. if the Cavs keep taking on old guys with big contracts they’re gonna screw themselves.
to be fair, you have to look at it in that light. it’s not as simple as complaining about the cavs trading the 30th pick for AJ and telfair. AJ might just as easily end up being a huge liability for them. he was to the wiz. which is why this isn’t collusion.
the economics of this deal seem solid to me. phil jackson and doc rivers are just representing their narrow self-interest at this point in time, that’s all.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 22, 2010 6:58 PM EST reply actions
Well the fact is
if the Wiz and Cavs had a pre-agreement for a buyout and re-signing then that’s collusion and illegal. There was tons of talk about that scenario before the trade. They found no concrete evidence. Doesn’t mean the agreement wasn’t there.
I for one think the player shouldn’t be allowed to re-sign with his old team, but that’s a rule change and isn’t supported here, apparently.
on the contrary
i’m the only one on this thread who doesn’t think a rule change is warranted. it’s like 12 angry men up in here.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 23, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
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