Why the Wizards-Mavericks trade is an all-around epic fail
Most NBA trades involving rebuilding teams have to be evaluated in three components. One is whether the rebuilding team got somewhat decent current talent back. The Wizards clearly didn't. The second is whether they got young talent or future assets back. The Wizards didn't. The third is whether it saved money, both in the short and long term. The Wizards saved money long-term and a little bit short-term, but didn't get out of the luxury tax this year, so it's not a complete success there either.
But the reason this trade is a failure is above all that. It's not just about getting no talent back or not clearing enough salary to get under the luxury tax this year. It's not just about sacrificing two somewhat valuable assets for nothing more than a little extra room under the luxury tax and flexibility in 2011. It's not just about bringing in two guys who aren't great characters and would take away minutes from the young players.
No, it's about the coalescence of bad planning, a bad read of the market, a lack of creativity, misplaced priorities and a lack of understanding about what the fans want and what they want to hear. That's why this trade stinks.
To get into the right mode, let's begin by speaking the Wizards' language. The bottom line is that the Wizards desperately need to cut payroll, both current and future. The team stinks, and they're also paying a hefty luxury tax bill. They're also in the process of being sold, and the current owners cannot agree with the future owner on the right price. As much as we as fans don't want to hear about finances, since it isn't our money, that's what's driving this move and any additional moves we make before the trade deadline. Cutting money is more important to this team right now than getting current talent back or holding out for some B-level prospect like J.J. Hickson or even Rodrigue Beaubois (for Dallas to say he's untouchable, that's ridiculous at its face value. They're just trying to pump up his value).
Does this trade allow the Wizards to cut money? Technically, yes. The Wizards will save about $2.5 million this year (double that for the tax) and $15 million in 2010/11 by swapping Stevenson out as well. That sounds like a lot of money, and technically, it is. But this trade fails to do the two things that are absolutely necessary to improve the finances of this team. It doesn't eliminate the Wizards' luxury tax penalty, and it doesn't save money in the long, long term. No additional money is saved past 2011, because Stevenson and Butler are off the books by then, and the tax isn't eliminated because, for some odd reason, the Wizards didn't force Dallas to take on Fabricio Oberto for their traded player exception as a price for getting two very good players for nothing.
The last sentence is an example of the lack of creativity here, as well as the lack of planning. I don't have an idea of whether the Wizards decided they need to go into full seller mode sooner than the last few weeks, but as recently as December, Ernie Grunfeld was talking about not having his "full deck" of players. As recently as January, there were vibes that Ernie wanted to hold off on a full-out sale. I don't know if it was all a mask for what Ernie was trying to do, but it certainly seems like he didn't wake up and smell the roses until far too late. All that time wasted was time where minor pieces could have been moved to cut into that luxury-tax bill. The Hornets, for example, completely eliminated their luxury-tax bill by moving the following players: Rasual Butler (summer), Tyson for Emeka (summer), Devin Brown, Hilton Armstrong and Bobby Brown. They saw a problem on the horizon, planned ahead and accomplished their goal. We sat there and did nothing.
There were all sorts of ways to help avoid the tax. With Memphis worried about Rudy Gay and needing another bench piece, why not inquire about trading Nick Young for their open cap space? How about Mike James for a smaller 2011 contract? DeShawn Stevenson for a smaller 2011 contract that's equally cruddy? These smaller moves would have required more creativity, but would have advanced the goal of getting further under that tax and made it less necessary to dump two decent assets (good players, both of whom are on fair deals and expire before 2011 CBA-gate) for tax room.
And here's another example of bad planning: thinking that Butler and Haywood (and Stevenson, for that matter) are must-dumps. As I wrote earlier this week, the true bad contract on the roster is Antawn Jamison's (well, besides Gilbert Arenas'). Jamison is the one with the larger contract than Butler. Jamison's the one that's 33 and could potentially scare teams away because of his age. Jamison's the one that extends past the 2011 CBA, which only adds more uncertainty to the proceedings even if a) the new CBA isn't as bad as we all think and b) the old contracts can get renegotiated.
But for some reason, whether out of loyalty to Jamison, a misunderstanding of his skills and/or a narrow-minded point of view that only considered that Jamison's been a better player than Butler this season, the Wizards felt that he wasn't as essential to get off the payroll for salary relief instead of Butler and Haywood. That, to be frank, is a ridiculous point of view. We're currently slated to pay $34 million in 2012 to just two players (Arenas and Jamison), when cap flexibility will be most important because of the new CBA. That's when there's tons of potential for the type of unbalanced trades that could net us additional draft picks (like what OKC did the last couple years). To me, not having cap space next year isn't the end of the world - we shouldn't be splurging in the 2010 free agent market anyway because we're at the beginning of rebuilding. Not having cap space in 2012, however, is a problem.
It's not just bad long-term planning either; it's bad short-term planning. The Wizards seem like they're still trying to trade Jamison, figuring that moving Butler out was more of a priority. Ostensibly, they felt they could wait out the Cavaliers for Jamison, hoping they'd cave and give up J.J. Hickson. In response, Cleveland appears to have said "Fine, we'll just go for Amare Stoudemire instead." Down goes our best option to move Jamison's bad contract off the books. Boston still seems interested, I guess, but the contracts don't match up (the reason Butler was included in the initial rumor was to get the contracts to add up to Ray Allen). So where do we move Jamison now? If the answer is nowhere, this is an epic fail, and that's looking more and more likely now. As I wrote earlier this week, the worst-case scenario of keeping Butler is way better than the worse-case scenario of keeping Jamison. Now that Butler's been shipped out, we've just increased our chances of keeping Jamison. Bad, bad bad. (Note: if we move Jamison for cap relief, I'll back down from this, but it doesn't look good).
So we've now hit at why this trade shows bad planning, a lack of creativity and a bad read of the market. However, it's the last two criticisms that really make me mad. I practically threw my computer on the floor when I read this:
You may be wondering, as I am, why Washington chose this deal instead of another blockbuster that would’ve sent Jamison and Butler to Boston for a package including Ray Allen. According to sources, a handful of Eastern Conference GMs pressured Wizards GM Ernie Grunfeld to shy away from the Boston deal for obvious reasons. "It would screw up the balance of power in the East for three years," one executive said. One theory circulating in Dallas is that Grunfeld didn’t want to alienate other teams he might need to do business with as he continues dismantling the roster in the wake of the Gilbert Arenas firearms fiasco.
If Ken Berger is to be believed (obviously not a given), this is downright insulting to Wizards fans. Ernie Grunfeld was talked out of helping Boston by his competition??? You've got to be kidding me. As Wizards fans, I don't care who our trade makes better. I care about whether it's good for our team. I don't give a hoot if we mess up the "balance of power in the East." Screw those guys. And to think that EG made the Dallas trade just to make it easier to trade Jamison is just ... I mean, how ridiculous is that? Cleveland's moving to Amare Stoudemire anyway. If Ernie really made this trade for those reasons, he should be fired immediately.
The other thing that really bugs me is this disingenuous attempt to sell this trade based on on-court merits. In a sense, I guess Ernie has no choice. He can't go out there and say "we've decided to stink for the time being." But one thing that Ted Leonsis preaches is the need for transparency. An excerpt.
Once you make the decision to rebuild--be transparent. Articulate the plan and sell it loudly and proudly to all constituencies, the media, the organization, the fans, your partners, family and anyone who will listen. Agree to what makes for a successful rebuild--in our case it is "a great young team with upside that can make the playoffs for a decade and win a Stanley Cup or two."
Leonsis' 10 points aren't all easily transferrable to the NBA, but that one is. I could be wrong, but I think that most Wizards fans understand that the current mix is never going to win a championship. We also mostly understand that we're far enough away that a minor tweak won't do it. You can be frank with us and say "we weren't winning with this mix, so we're doing the necessary things to ensure we'll be at that level in the near future. One of those is to have necessary payroll flexibility" or whatever. Instead, we get this, from the press release:
"Our four new players bring versatility and the experience of playing in a winning situation," said Grunfeld. "Josh and Quinton can each play both the shooting guard and small forward positions while providing athleticism and outside shooting. Drew can play both the power forward and center positions and he and James give us an inside presence that combines skill and toughness."
I mean ... come on! Josh Howard and Quinton Ross are shooting 27 and 23 percent from three-point range this season. They provide outside missing, not outside shooting. And to say Gooden and Singleton provide "an inside presence that combines skill and toughness" is so vague it's not even worth anything.
To his credit, Ernie does throw a nod to "financial flexibility" in an interview with Mike Jones, but there's also a need for "freshness" and how Josh Howard was an all-star three years ago. Then, there's also the "retool on the fly" language from a couple weeks ago. I realize you don't need to tell the truth with these things, but you also don't need to outright lie. Emphasize the future, not the present. We'll understand and appreciate your candor. Just note how young GMs like Kevin Pritchard in Portland and David Kahn in Minnesota have skillfully emphasized the future in their situations and have gone out of their way to connect with the fans. I know I'd feel better about our future if I heard more language from the horses mouth about it.
This got long-winded, but to review: this trade stinks because:
- We got no current talent back.
- We got no future talent or assets back.
- We traded two cap-friendly deals (at least relatively so) for nothing.
- We didn't eliminate our luxury tax bill, we only took steps towards doing it, while sacrificing two valuable assets in the process.
- We didn't cut long-term salary (i.e. past 2012).
- We didn't get more creative in getting more value for our players and/or cutting our luxury tax bill.
- We traded the wrong guys first and may now be stuck with Antawn Jamison's bad contract.
- We didn't demonstrate any sort of long-term plan, both in the past (leading up to this deal) and the future (going past this deal).
- We seem to have misunderstood or misplayed the market, though obviously that could change in the coming days depending on future moves.
- We seem more concerned with currying favor among other GMs than helping our team.
- We didn't control the message at all, making us seem disingenuous to us fans.
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Ernie Grunfeld let other GMs talk him out of a deal
I really, really, REALLY hope that isn’t true. If it is he not only deserves to be fired he deserves to be tarred and feathered in front of the Verizon Center by Wizards fans. When in the hell do you take the feelings of other GMs into account instead of making the best deal for yourself!
"I say he does have to shoot me now! So shoot me now!" --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Feb 14, 2010 3:26 PM EST reply actions
Maybe Ernie was looking out for himself.
Probably didn’t think he could get another job after he gets canned here if he pissed so many people off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk
He was probably being played by Danny Ferry
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
This was just a very senseless deal...
& this is why the Wizards are not taken seriously as a professinal sports team… Management is being punked by other GMs…. They can create all the cap space they want (which nearly was not the case EITHER!!!) the Wades, James, Boshs are NOT coming to DC…
rec'd
And so much for that All-Star weekend vacation you were going on lol. But yeah I agree whole heartedly with everything you said above. This was a horribly planned trade, and not worth the little bit of cap space we got in return. I’m so mad and sad about this trade!
Great work Prada
Now you’ve gone and made Ernie Grunfeld cry in his bedtime pillow. I hope you are happy.
Couple of wonders:
Some reports, specifically from Mike Fisher of DallasBasketball.com, say that a second trade of Oberto to Dallas for their trade exemption could be a possibility.
But also, Michael Lee kind of shot that down on Twitter by saying he was told that it was never discussed.
http://twitter.com/MrMichaelLee/status/9086566412
Damn.
I also don’t exactly buy the “screw up the balance of power in the East for three years” from Ken Berger.
How? Boston would be old & cash strapped.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
That'd be a pretty loaded roster though.
Maybe not for the next 3 years but they’d probably be the favorites for the next 2 years (including this one).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk
If this trade is all that is going to happen...
yep, it’s bad… If the housecleaning has just begun, well then maybe not. I am not giving EG the benefit of the doubt here, I am just assuming that we are not even close to hearing the end of this strange tale.
Yeah, this should just be the first move
Jamison has to be traded as well, like Prada said, for this move to make much sense.
Trade with Denver?
Miller and Jamison for Kenyon Martin, J.R. Smith, and a #1? Denver gets better this year in my opinion. We’d add $10 mil to our cap next year in exchange for the #1 pick, but we’d also lose the last year of Jamison’s contract.
by Palace of Good Play's Golden Toilet on Feb 14, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
Personally
I think Ernie needs to apologize to Boston by giving us Miller + Jamison for Ray AND possibly buying Ray out if this was true. : |
And there’s a 1 out of 13 chance that a Eastern Conference GM can suck my nuts.
Benefit of the doubt?
1. He failed to wait until draft night to get the best deal for the #5 pick; instead jumping on Minnesota’s offer of Miller and Foye.
2. He failed to draft DeJuan Blair…. I DON’T give him a pass just because other GM’s didn’t draft Blair – DeJuan Blair would have filled a hole in the Wizard’s team – they needed a tough interior player, that could rebound…. and he sold the pick for $2 Million.
3. He WASTED that $2 Million on Fabricio Oberto….. (Just look at the stats this year for Oberto versus Blair)
4. He failed to pull the trigger on the Portland deal – that would have given the Wizards Pendergraph (a prospect) and a Pick for Haywood.
5. He failed to wait until the Trade Deadline to deal Butler (and Haywood) to get the best deal – instead, jumping on the first real offer that put Cash in Irene Polin’s pocket.
6. He has lied to the Washington fans all along – by not being up front about what the Organization’s goals are (it’s pretty obvious what the goals are now)…
7. He’s set a bad precedent for future trades; with other teams now knowing that he will cave and accept only expiring contracts for talent (ie: forget getting anything of value now for Jamison)…
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Feb 14, 2010 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
By the way, re: the trade exception
Two twists: One, the deal does not include the Trade Exception. Dallas managed to hold onto it, and my impression is that the Mavs are glad they did, with anticipation of using it in the future. Two, Dallas got cash?! There’s a first!
Are. You. Serious. We payed them cash?? What an effin joke.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
The funniest thing from that article:
Meanwhile, Butler is expiring after next season. So this summer, he’s a chip, too — if necessary, a sidebar to DUST. (And when Dallas brass says, "trustable assets,‘’ they mean Butler in comparison to Josh, a difficult-to-gauge "asset’’ this summer.
The Mavs showed themselves to be in "go-for-it’’ mode … but the go-for-it is now … AND for later.
Why did we need to trade Butler and Deshawn so badly again that we had to throw in Haywood and sacrifice both Pendegraph and a first round pick?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk
I read that yesterday too.
I don’t understand why the Wiz would send cash.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
we're getting rid of a ton of money
We’re paying them not because the players they sent are better than the ones we sent, but because we gave them a lot more salary to pay. So to partially make up for that, we had to give them some money.
by zl on Feb 14, 2010 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
If that's the case
Why even send Haywood in the deal? I mean, there is no reason to give Cuban cash in this deal when it’s purely financial on your end.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
This is why I don't think the Wiz sent cash.
I just think that’s a rumor that flew around and ended up being reported as fact.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Grunfeld committed professional malpractice
by not insisting that the trade carry the same value as similar past trades in the NBA. I guess I can accept the Butler and DeShawn for Howard trade; but the Haywood trade was just a giveaway. For example, you could make the case that Detroit’s 2004 trade with Atlanta for Rasheed’s expiring contract involved a player similar to Brendan — and in that trade, Atlanta got the 17th pick in the draft (Josh Smith), along with the usual exchange of additional trash contracts. So, at the very minimum, Ernie should have been able to make a strong argument for a late-round first, or the equivalent in a player. The fact that he didn’t means he should be unemployed…or is receiving a gift certificate for one year’s worth of free, first-class prostitution services from the rest of the NBA clique. Which wouldn’t surprise me one bit. Have fun with those hookers, Ernie.
I agree with every word of this post
Let’s not forget to point the finger at Wizards’ ownership, too. Worrying only about money and not caring a bit about the future of the team in making this trade is a big F U to their loyal customers who helped make them pretty rich over the years.
Ernie Grunfeld
has been taking management classes with Peter Angelos
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
No he's making Jim Bowden look competent
Angelos at least finally bowed out and admitted his mistakes by highering MacPhail
This has to be the most dysfunctional franchise in the NBA at this point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk
Javale! Nick Young! Andray Blatche!
A championship core for the future!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk
Thats really not a one for one comparison and you know it
Both of those guys were top ten selections. Are you saying that dunleavy Jr running this team?
The Nets have a plan as do the Clippers.
We’re going into 2011 with $31 million tied up in two players on very bad contracts who haven’t ever won anything. I would trade teams with the Nets and Clippers in a heart beat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk
Yep
Clippers with Blake Griffin will be a lot better
Clippers in a much better position
Not only Griffin, but the Clippers have Davis, Gordon, and Kamen plus Cap room.
And We Haven't Been Rebuilding for the Past 30 Years?!?!
The Clippers made the second round of a much tougher Western Conference four seasons ago and took 3 games in that hard fought series. Our best showing was five seasons ago when we made the second round and got swept. How are we any more highly regarded then the Clippers?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
The Clippers have had two winning seasons
in the last 30 years. Blown multiple #1 Overall draft picks and have the tightest owner in the Biz. 1 good season and 29 average to crappy seasons. What do you call that? I know your angry but we sir are not the Clippers.
OK
I get your point. If you take the last 30 seasons as a whole, we make out better because of our multiple playoff appearance in the 80s. But if you only look at the past 20 years, I really don’t see much difference between our team and the Clippers. Consider:
1990 – 2010:
Los Angeles Clippers – 2 winning seasons, 4 playoff appearances, 1 conference semi-finals appearance, 11 playoff wins
Washington Wizards – 5 winning seasons, 5 playoff appearances, 1 conference semi-finals appearance, 8 playoff wins
Seems very comparable to me.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Yikes, it's closer than I thought...
As a relatively new fan (circa 2000), this really surprises me, so I took a look. Overall since 1980…
Wizards: 619-957 (.393) (average 32-50)
Clippers: 579-999 (.367) (average 30-52)
I think you can make the case that we haven’t been distinctly better than the Clips over the last 20 years. What have I gotten myself into??
Yes, sir, we are
The only thing that we have over the Clippers is a supposed championship (I still don’t know that I believe it actually happened) 32 years ago. In the last 30, we have been every bit as bad as the Clippers, we just do it differently. I’d rather have the chance to blow a number one pick (which we did, by the way) multiple times than wallow in the never ending 12-18 range. Even when we made questionably good decisions (putting Juwan and Webber together was great, except that they both played 4, couldn’t play 3 and didn’t want to play 5) and draft reasonably well (Rasheed) we still mange to F* it all up. “You’ll give us Mitch Richmond and his walker for Webber? Absolutely! Where do I sign?”. “I know Rip is the best mid range shooter in the league, but we really need a volume scorer who’s well past his prime and sucks in the locker room. Oh, and make sure he’s a UNC boy, cuz the boss likes that”. I’d throw in Hot Rod for Rasheed but that was almost a wash and nobody could have expected Ben Wallace to turn into what he did, even if Ike Austin was a waste of roster space. The point is, we have spent the last 30 years being just as laughable as the Clips, even if the overall records just exactly match up.
To wit:
Dunleavy stepped down as coach a couple of weeks ago, essentially firing himself in that capacity, and somehow managed to stay on as GM. Now that’s dysfunction.
The Wizards look awful today, and looked awful last year largely due to injury, but over time the Clippers reign supreme for me. Truly, they are the Clippers.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
It is the last point
which drives me up the wall. The Caps had to shed themselves of some pretty popular players, but they did so in a thoughtful manner. Bringing in two headcases now, and stating that its gives us something different makes me want to burn my Bullets gear.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Ernie and candor
I have never heard an interview where Ernie said anything remotely interesting. Just the usual non-committal pablum. Right now, this doublespeak is downright insulting to us fanes. I would love to feed him some truth serum in order to find out the real reasons why he chose this particular deal. Its a salary dump with nothing of any value coming back our way, so is a major disappointment to me. Unlike many posters here, I believe that Ernie has been the one making the decisions for the past several years, especially the draft decisions. I don’t think Ernie values any draft pick beyond the top 3. I have no idea what his rebuilding strategy is, if in fact he has one.
by hotplate on Feb 14, 2010 4:47 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
Ernie is the complete opposite of transparent. He’s opaque as it gets. Despite some of his good moves over the years, I hope Ted dumps him as soon as he takes over so that the relationship with Wizards fans can be restored.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Nice work, Mike.
It was a pretty terrible trade. But I think everyone’s being overly negative right now. It is what is, ya know? We suck. We know this.
It’s been a disastrous season from every standpoint—obviously Grunfeld’s played a role, but so has Flip Saunders, and so have the players, for that matter. And just to reiterate, so has Flip Saunders. No matter how Ernie packaged these players and for whom, we wouldn’t have gotten any better on the court, and our longterm financial flexibility would have still hinged on whether we can get out of Gilbert’s deal. No trade was going to change our fortunes at this point.
Right now, the Wizards need some luck. Whether that means luck in the NBA lottery in April, Cleveland stepping up with a great offer for Jamison, or getting bailed out of Gilbert’s cap-killing contract… Something. Creativity from our management would be nice, but at this point, we really need a watershed event to break the negativity around here. Something to get the momentum going in the right direction.
Until then, I say Wizards fans should look on the bright side with this. We can be Mavericks fans! Tuff Juice and Haywood are both fucking awesome, and I’m happy that they’ll be on a contender again. Particularly with Haywood, this move makes the Mavs legit players in the Western Conference. Is rooting for the Mavericks a sad commentary on this year’s Wizards? Obviously. But fuck it… It’s better than wallowing in inevitable failure for the rest of this year.
im with you...
… ive always liked Dirk and the Mavs.. my kids had Dirk jerseys already… so Im gonna root for the Mavs. the only downside is that I won’t get to see Caron and Brendan live and in person every home game… just once a year now.
I agree
Arenas and Jamison are the big moves. If we can get rid of them, then we can start spending money. The problem is all of the trades being talked about sucked, except for the ones where we fleece the other team. We’re watching the wizards right after they traded Juwan Howard for a bunch of junk. None of these guys will last on the team. Some might not even play for us this season, if there is another trade before Friday.
Pulling for
A cavs-mavs finals to see a revitalized lebron-deshawn battle in meaningful games! My love for Stevenson flows back in now that he won’t be steadily missing shots for my team.
by Arthur T on Feb 15, 2010 3:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Haha… That would be funny
But no way in hell do I see the Mavs beating the Lakers in a 7-game series, if the Lakers are healthy.
My swag was phenomenal.
PRADA FOR WIZARDS G.M.
Seriously, EG is ruining this team. Fire him. Bring in Prada as the new GM. Change the name back the Bullets. Keep Gilbert. Get rid of everyone else.
All joking aside
I would take Bill Simmons over Ernie Grunfeld right now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk
by hibachi on Feb 14, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I was actually thinking that when he made his feces twitter comment
Could he do a worse job that Ernie right now?
What would you have done?
The problem is we think too much of our players. No one was drooling over Butler or Haywood. They will be valuable for Dallas going into the second half of the season, but they could have continued on with that same roster and still competed with anyone in the NBA. Trading for Butler and Haywood was a luxury for them, it was a necessity for us. No one is going to trade their young talent for our players. Why would they? Rudy Fernandez, Beaubis, Hickson; all of those guys are young and can play, why get rid of them for an aging Jamison who can’t play a lick of defense, Butler whose shot has abandonded him, or Haywood who still has problems finishing around the basket. All of those young players are contributing now, it’s not like they are just sitting on the bench and fuming about not getting minutes. The truth is our players are simply not that valuable in this market. The best we can do in most of these moves is free up cap space. And again, all of these moves are moot if we can’t move Jamison and void/buy out/trade Arenas. Without getting rid of that payroll we are still just scrounging.
What would you have done?
I wouldn’t have caved into the Mavs demand that we throw-in a valuable asset like Brendan Haywood.
So you don't cave.......
No what? What happens if the next deal you get is even worse than that. What if the Dallas deal was the best one he got. I mean he has been trying to trade Butler and jamison since Gil got suspended. I am pretty sure EG is just as pissed that his star player forced his hand in the trade market.
Instead
Take the deal Portland offered for Haywood (Pendergraph, Steve Blake and a first round pick )
THEN – swap Caron for Josh Howard (Dallas still would have done that deal if we didn’t insist on including Stevenson)
THEN – take Cleveland’s deal for Jamison (Ilgauskas only – no players or picks – Cap relief only)
At least then – the Wizards would have cap relief AND Pendergraph and a First Round pick….
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Which is assuming Portland takes the deal.
i’m not saying you’re wrong Rook. I’m saying that maybe Portland didn’t agree to the deal. My personal opinion of Kevin Pritchard is that he greatly overvalues his talent and doesn’t ever want to give up a high price to get a player regardless of the circumstance.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
if you think Portland would turn down Blake and parts for Haywood, your nuts, pookey. Prtichard has been shopping Blake and Outlaw according to everyone local and national.
#52 #10 #25 #7
Said what I said and meant it Cab.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
he overvalues his own guys so much that he let Channing Frye walk for nothing. He overvalues his own guys so much that he paid Sacramento to take Sergio.
#52 #10 #25 #7
Channing Frye isn't worth that much. Neither is Sergio.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Of course not.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I'm not assuming Portland would TAKE the deal...
it was reported that Portland OFFERED the deal…. They OFFERED Blake, Pendergraph and a first round pick for Haywood….
All Ernie Grunfeld had to do was ACCEPT that offer……
Ernie countered saying he wanted Fernandez……
So we know that Haywood, all by himself, was valued by at least ONE other GM for the price of a pick, a decent rotation player and a prospect.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I get it.
Enjoy your sorrows.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Why do you assume EG was making the trade
as part of a rebuilding process? EG was trying to dump salary. The trade that Pritchard offered is anything but.
Ok fine....
(assuming those teams would do all those trades, which is far from given) And then you have Pendergraph ($1M?), the 1st round pick ($1M?) and Stevenson ($4M) and there goes $6M in cap space. Are Pendergraph, an unnamed late 1st round draft pick and Stevenson worth 10-12% of the salary cap next season?
Of course not.
by JonathanJoseph on Feb 14, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
exactly my point
You have to take what you can get in this kind of situation. The market is just not there for most of our players. And I am still not convinced AJ is going anywhere.
This really is a snap reaction
How are we to know if the Wizards are done making moves. I really believe with the prevalence of information available through the internet we the fans believe that we know more than we actually do. This team is in limbo right now and we honestly have no clue who is calling the shots. How do you know Ted was like " Cut salary now I am not paying for this crap ". We have no clue yet we bust out these long winded articles and post theorizing on trades that should have happen instead. That EG blew it because he didnt get Portland or whomever to make a one sided trade for us. This isn’t NBA Live 2010. Just because we the fan understand the cap rules and ESPN offers up the trade machine doesn’t make us GM’s. Sure we can have opinions but when you use false/half facts and a false understanding of how the business side of the NBA works we really just come off as being just a little dense.
Would you rather I write nothing?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I said you can have your opinions
I just dont believe you gave this trade a fair shake. I think it sucks as much as the next guy but thats because I am looking at only from I want the wizards to win POV. All I am saying is this trade needs to be approached from different sides. Especially the business end. Like I mentioned in the first post. Who is in charge right now? Now that is something worth finding more about.
I think I gave it a pretty damn fair shake
There was lots of talk from the business perspective, i.e. how it didn’t cut sufficient short-term or long-term salary. If anything, there was too much talk from the business side and not enough from the on-court side.
Or maybe you just skipped the first paragraph below the jump.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
what you're saying just means that you don't have an opinion, dude
be happy living in your state of ignorant bliss. We put guys like you on the front line because you believe there will be ice cream sold out of the ditches on the front.
by Tbonebullets on Feb 14, 2010 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
I do have an opinion
I am waiting to see what happens in the big picture the trade deadline is not over. You can’t look at this trade until all the wheeling and dealing is done and over with.
you mean you believe that the reports are wrong
and that the Mavs are really giving us a 1st, or the french guy, as part of the trade? Otherwise, the facts are in, my man.
by Tbonebullets on Feb 14, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
No they aren't fully in-
Yes about the Dallas trade but not about whether or not we are trading Jamison. The trade will still suck but at least the Jamison trade may make sense in the big picture
then my opinion would be that the Dallas trade blows,
and I would be really happy with a good Jamison trade. This doesn’t change Prada’s initial point that the Dallas deal is a salami gobbler.
by Tbonebullets on Feb 14, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think that makes sense
there’s no reason why a worse trade now improves our prospects for a future trade. Therefore the trades can be judged independently. And this trade could suck, while a future trade could be good.
by Palace of Good Play's Golden Toilet on Feb 14, 2010 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
Okay so David Stern just announced
that the NBA lost over 400 million last year. Now of course that number is massively inflated but we know the wizards are not a money making franchise. So the wiz are bleeding cash even more so than before. EG has to drop salary. By calling this trade horrible you are assuming that Caron and Haywood should have carried more value in the PRESENT market or actually I am curious what were EG’s other options.
I'm not sure I understand the argument
I think that most people are upset because they think that Ernie could have gotten more in a deal whether that be players, draft picks, or cap space. If you’re arguing that we don’t know what Ernie was offered by other teams, so we can’t criticize the deal, I understand that position, but at the same time I think we can look at the players we sent packing and try to gauge whether we got a fair return, also taking into account various rumors.
If on the other hand you are arguing that we need to wait to see the dust clear before we can be critical, then I disagree because these trades are independent. And while Ernie may have a trick up his sleeve and be about to make a great deal, that doesn’t excuse getting less value in this deal with the Mavs (assuming of course that there was a better deal out there).
by Palace of Good Play's Golden Toilet on Feb 14, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
On the first point that is pretty much what I am getting at. Until the trading deadline is passed and we see who actually gets moved we have no idea what the GM’s of the league were willing to do. Everything up to that point is nothing more than conjecture. We have no idea what EG was offered and really he was trading from a point of extreme weakness. How exactly does he not get fleeced in a situation like that?
These were just some of things that weakened his position.
- Your star player who the franchise was built around brings a gun to the locker room and gets suspended for the whole year
- Your owner who really didn’t want to go over the luxury tax passes away and now the state of the franchise is in flux
- Every team knows your trying to move Butler and Jamison.
- You have no leverage with Haywood due to the fact that he can sign where ever he wants at the end of the season.
- Sitting pat is not an option and everyone knows it.
This what EG was dealing with that we know about. There is bound to be more that was hanging over his head as he was trying to structure a deal that we may never know about.
On the second point you have every right to slag the trade independently but I really believe we are doing ourselves a disservice if we don’t take in all anglea and not just that CB and BHW are better than that garbage that Dallas sent our way.
by ccrun1800 on Feb 14, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry, but I have to call b.s. on this line of thinking
Last summer, Minnesota traded two pretty good players on expiring contracts for the #5 pick, two expiring contracts and one guy with two years left on his deal.
Nine months later Ernie trades two players who are better than the Minnesota twosome for three expiring contracts and one contract with another year on it, plus Ernie throws in cash.
Justify this trade if you want, but you then can’t justify the trade last summer. One of those trades has to be an “epic fail.”
Also, don’t give us this bull excsue about Ernie trading from a position of weakness. First, he put himself in that position of weakness with his prior moves. Second, a good GM will pull out a good trade even when he is in a position of weakness (e.g., see the Butler – Kwame Brown trade). Third, if Ernie can’t pull off a good trade when he’s in a posiiton of weakness, (1) he shouldn’t be a GM; and (2) he shouldn’t be the person pulling the trigger on any Arenas deal.
I agree with you that circumstances may change over the next week. But I disagree that we need to reserve judgment until then. If the Wizards are behind 32 to 13 at the end of the first quarter, we don’t need to “reserve judgment” until the game is over.
It is clear that last summer's trade was a HUGE failure.
B/c the goal of that trade was to make us a contender. There was some unforeseen circumstances but, especially with where we are at now, the miller/foye trade was a failure. But not in the same category of failure as this one. B/c the summer trade gave us hope.
by returnofswagger on Feb 14, 2010 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
So you just called EG a good GM
Second, a good GM will pull out a good trade even when he is in a position of weakness (e.g., see the Butler – Kwame Brown trade)
Then go on to slate him for not pulling another rabbit out of the hat. The dude is not a miracle worker and that is what we were all expecting him to do from the looks of things. I am sorry but the Butler/Kwame trade was not made from a position of weakness. L.A. needed a big man badly and we needed a scoring punch to match up with Gilbert. So LA. took a chance on a former #1 Overall draft pick who many felt had yet to realize his full potential due to Jordan destroying his confidence during his first couple years in the league. So what I am seeing is two GM’s who scratched each others backs.
Did ernie tell his star player to bring a gun to the locker room? NO!
Do you really thinks he makes this trade if arenas is still playing?
Did EG know that the teams owner and his boss would pass away and embroil the team in a more difficult than thought owernership transfer?
How does a GM plan for that? There is no contingency for your star player being suspended for a season.
And when I say hold off on your judgement I am more so referring to taking in all aspects of this trade before throwing your dice out there. This trade is an effect to a multitude of causes. EG does play his part in the massive fail that is this season but to lay all the blame on him is unfair.
Grasp
The benefit of the doubt expired awhile back, before he gave away a top 5 pick for MORE backcourt help. This is an infuriating deal. The Sonics got more for their assets and they were leaving town!
by Jheiser3 on Feb 14, 2010 11:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
They also weren't competing for a championship or acting like they were.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
So yes, in other words, I should have shut up for four days and written nothing
In which case I wouldn’t be serving the readership at all.
I’m sorry to get pissy about this, but from my perspective, I just spent a couple hours when I’m supposed to be on a self-imposed break trying to look at this trade in a different light, trying to spur a discussion among fellow Wizards fans that count on a discussion being spurred when something big like this happens. And now I have to hear someone tell me I wasted my time. That bugs the crap out of me.
I don’t really mind if you choose to say “I’ll reserve judgment until the deadline passes.” That’s totally fair. But it sounds like you’re saying I wasted my time because I shouldn’t comment until the deadline is up. That bugs me a lot.
Sorry, enough about me. Carry on with the discussion about the trade.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Dude I respect your work you do on this site
more than anything. I log on here and everyone is slagging EG so I wanted to give a different take on the matter. Mike I never called you out by name because my issue wasnt with you its more so with how we fans react emotionally before we get all our facts in order
Okay, sorry
I flipped a bit. Let’s carry on.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
You always do good and valuable work -
and that is always appreciated. IWhat I mean when I say that we need to look at the big picture and while this trade does suck – there still could be an overall plan when everything is said and done. Yes of course you can judge a trade independently but don’t you always have to look at the big picture too? And see overall how things turn out?
but how can you not slag EG's work
if that trade for Haywood was out there, you take that trade, WITH the 1st round pick, WITH the prospect, 10 times out of 10. Butler and Stevenson had reasonable contracts. And then you STILL have the option of making the “blow it up” trade by moving Butler and Stevenson to Boston, and at least getting back a Big Baby.
Your point about not looking about these things in a vacuum is fair, but I made the same point about EG after he traded the number 5 pick. Wait, we have seven guards, we can’t be done….guess what? We were done. Its the EG way.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
I guess I'm willing to wait and see how things turn out-
I’m very upset at EG – I don’t know what the hell he is doing. But I have to hold out some semblance of hope purely for my own reasons because this season has really depressed me. Things just seem to keep getting worse and worse and I want it to be over.
Rationalizing
So this deal works for you, because the alternate view aka reality is just too scary? Think about that before you defend Ernie again.
by Jheiser3 on Feb 14, 2010 11:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No -
did I say this deal worked for me. I said above that this deal sucked. But I’m willing to see if there is a big picture plan and I see nothing wrong with that. What the hell is wrong with holding on to hope? BTW – we don’t actually know what the reality is because 1, our name is not Ernie Grunfeld and 2. the trade deadline hasn’t passed yet. So think about that before you give up.
We had two winning seasons
in 15 years before EG showed up. Then some how we managed to make the playoffs four years in a row. So the man deserves some credit. He has a higher basketball IQ in his receding hair line than both of us in our entire bodies combined. Do I loathe this trade? As a fan who has been rooting for the Wiz his entire life of course I do.
Do you really think EG saw what Dallas laid out and said " This is an awesome deal I’ll take it? " I really think there were better offers out there but I also believe that the decision to do this trade was not arrived at by EG alone. As I mentioned early in one of my post we really don’t know who has the final say in the going ons of this franchise so EG is just the guy they send out there to polish the turd. If we fans can see its a turd don’t you think he can as well.
It doesn't matter if they make additional moves
So what if they trade Jamison for Hickson, and 3 first round picks (not happening), this deal was just bad in every which way.
Please don't pretend that it is possible that EG has some trick up his sleeve.
Or that he has some ,long-term, genius plan for this team.
by returnofswagger on Feb 14, 2010 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
This is my angriest moment as a Bullets fan
This was a stomach punch. I am not getting over this for a long time. Thank you for the great summary Prada, you described this in a really comprehensive way that actually made me more depressed.
This was abominable. We need to just dump antawn for z now. Getting nothing back is better than paying $50m for a broken team.
This is the first time in a long time that I really feel like there is NO HOPE. Ernie Grunfeld crapped the bed and I am going to hold a party the day Ted axes him.
by Manimal Smith on Feb 14, 2010 5:33 PM EST via mobile reply actions
This could be a good sign about the Jamison trade
UPDATE: Earlier reports had the Cavs officially making an offer, putting the proverbial ball in Phoenix’s court. But according to ESPN The Magazine’s Ric Bucher, Cleveland may have ulterior motives, namely turning up the heat on the Wizards with regards to dealing Antawn Jamison.
This from from the ESPN Rumor Mill. Hopefully Ernie will bite soon so we can be in full rebuilding mode
Hopefully Ernie is sweating like a pig
The heat is turned up. Make the deal.
by Palace of Good Play's Golden Toilet on Feb 14, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking
Ernie has proved time and time again that he freaks out when he thinks he’s gonna lose a deal, so i think he might finally accept that deal
by FNFWizardsFan on Feb 14, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
love to see Ferry make that trade for Amare
it might sound good, but the product on the court would be epic fail.
by Tbonebullets on Feb 14, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I mean live in PHX and the Shaq/Amare pairing was horrible
by FNFWizardsFan on Feb 14, 2010 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I remember the Steve kerr moron meter
on Bright Side of the Sun. I think we may need one of those right about now
well, on the bright side for Cleveland, if they trade for Amare
Is that if the trade creates a mess on the court, then LeBron will leave because the team blows, and Amare would then also probably walk in search of a better deal, and the Cavs could start rebuilding again. The silver lining for us in all of that would be that the Bullets and Cavaliers could resume their epic rivalry…among the worst teams in the NBA.
by Tbonebullets on Feb 14, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
I totally disagree
The Amare/Shaq pairing failed for many reasons. They could give it another shot in Cleveland. Amare has a consistent mid-range jumper and really attacks the rim. I think he would work well in Cleveland. Mabe not as well as Jamison, but he would still make them better. I don’t think Phoenix wants to take anything Cleveland is offering, though.
Mike Miller
Should have value in a trade shouldn’t he? Both as a player this year, and as an expiring contract? Would a team like the Lakers trade Vujacic, Morrison, and a draft pick for Miller + anyone (e.g. Taser). We’d be stuck with Vujacic next year at $5 mil, and get a draft pick for our troubles.
Any good destinations for Miller?
by Palace of Good Play's Golden Toilet on Feb 14, 2010 5:48 PM EST reply actions
i agree with everything that has been said
but…for me.
it was worth the trade so i dont have to watch deshawn eat up any more minutes in a wizards uniform. i couldnt handle anymore.
gotta agree
with that last point. I’ve never been more excited to see a player go.
As for the rest of it, this trade stinks. I completely agree that Ernie has no imagination. There had to have been a team willing to at least come in on a 3-way trade to rent the garbage veterans that we got. And, as much as I’ve been clamoring about how bad Butler’s been, he was still are best asset talent vs. salary wise. To end up with a pot head in return for him is embarrassing. Haywood was our second best asset (though its arguable he was #1). Meaning we traded our top2 assets for a bunch of garbage, with no real talent for our future.
I think Haywood was the best chip we had
Portland was willing to offer a rotation player (Blake), a prospect (Pendergraph) and a first round pick for Haywood…..
We weren’t hearing any talk like that surrounding Butler or Jamison….. Certainly, none of the rumors included any talk of draft picks for Butler or Jamison.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Haywood just interviewed on CSN..
.. very classy… said nothing but good things about the Wizards.. but he’s clearly excited about joining Kidd and Dirk… hard to believe he’s gone… he’s been here since he was 21 years old…he’s now 30.
It wasnt that bad
We were able to unload a lot of money for expiring contracts. Frankly, the young talent out there wasn’t that good anyway. As long as we get rid of AJ and GA, its really not a bad move.
i supported ernie….until now
this was really bad execution any way you look at it
by les boulez bomber on Feb 14, 2010 7:45 PM EST reply actions
and I thought MJ was bad
So now we have an underachieving small forward, who knows what the hell Gooden is. Do we play him (out of position) at center, or is he a backup at PF? Either way, he’s stealing minutes from our prospects. The other guys are taking minutes as well. And it’s not like they’re even taking minutes to make us better. Ernie is an out right liar when he talks about “freshness.” Just the loss of Haywood makes us a worse team this year. None of these guys can step into his shoes. Now, all that would be OK if I knew we had something to look forward to. But there are no assurances of that. Hell, right now, I’d say this year is worse than last. At least last year we could look forward to Arenas’ return and a lottery pick. Of course, the 1st one was worthless, and the 2nd one Ernie flubbed away.
Anyway, I really hope we deal Jamison before play resumes. Then MAYBE, just MAYBE, Flip will give Blatche and McGee starter minutes. I’d also like to see them move Miller into the spot Butler vacated, then start Young at SG. Of course, I realize that won’t happen. They’ll start our newly rented pot head there. UGH
Being a Washington Wizard fan = epic fail
Killing yourself = Wizards fan
Being the biggest loser in the world = Wizards fan
losing in general (all aspects) = Wizards
What a pitiful team. We need a center badly and what we do. Get rid of a center. What a garbage team. Im glad Antwan, Caron, Haywood, Arenas are leaving, and I am glad it seems a good percentage of Wizards fans are leaving, we deserve better. Life is short and I dont have time to sit around and watch a losing team!
Chris Bosh-
- He’s a Free Agent next year. Does anyone think we could him? A team with Arenas and Bosh provides a good base to rebuild, and would be at least entertaing to watch.
Zero
but I don’t really know who the second tier of FA are. I think until we get a new owner – we have no chance of landing anyone.
I heard we have a chance at re-signing Fab Oberto,
But seriously, here’s a list of the kind of players that would CHOOSE to come to Washington to play:
Jason Collins?
Aaron Gray
Kwame Brown
Mikki Moore
Brian Skinner
Oleksiy Pecherov
Mark Blount
Al Harrington
Larry Hughes
Etan Thomas (now that Haywood is gone)
92-year old Juwan Howard
Theo Ratliff
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
According to this ESPN.com article...
Sources: Teams sweeten Amare offers
"Miami has pursued Stoudemire hard but has no one on its roster (besides Dwyane Wade) that interests Phoenix, according to sources. That includes Michael Beasley. So it would take a three-team deal for Stoudemire to be traded to the Heat."
I’m too lazy to look into this in any great level of detail, but is there any possibility of a trade that takes Stoudemire to Miami, Jamison to Phoenix, and Beasley to Washington? What mix of players, picks, etc. would make something like this work?
Ha Ha
Danny Ferry doesn’t even want Amare and now he’s screwing himself into driving up the price for Tawn. It would be therapeutic if the Cavs end up getting nothing, and we trade Tawn and whatever else to the Celts…Celts win the championship…LeBron goes to New York. That would make me laugh.
by Tbonebullets on Feb 14, 2010 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure that the Suns would be interested
because of Jamison’s high salary with 2+ years left on the deal. It seems they want to move Amare for cap relief/young talent.
by Palace of Good Play's Golden Toilet on Feb 14, 2010 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
Then again...
…the clock is ticking on Nash’s career. The Suns might feel they only have a 2-3 year window to win a championship. Maybe taking on Jamison’s contract isn’t good for them long term, but it might be appealing short term. That or I may just be dreaming. But it’s a nice dream.
Plus...
…Beasley is a local product. Not that that means anything to Phoenix or Miami. But it would make for a nice storyline.
A Beasley-Boozer-Cousins frontcourt
would be pretty intimidating.
by Tbonebullets on Feb 14, 2010 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
I know last year-
when I followed Phoenix more closely. Sarver was desperate to unload salaries. He lost a lot of money with the economy tanking. This year I don’t know but I would be surprised if they took on AJ’s contract.
Phoenix might be thinking this is the last chance
to get anything for Amare – so why not trade for a productive, good guy like Jamison? You gotta admit he’d look good playing next to Nash; and they’re locked in to paying Nash anyway.
Maybe Phoenix is thinking that Miami could add a little extra value to the deal, in a way that Washington can’t if we tried to swing the deal on our own. I’m assuming that Miami would be unwilling to part with Beasley — though I’d be interested in seeing how it might work.
by Tbonebullets on Feb 15, 2010 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
Could have waited on Caron and Haywood till the summer. Jamison should have gone first. The Dallas festivities must have gotten to EG’s head. Or maybe that was gone a long time ago. Fire him, hire a stat guy, rebuild.
i was thinkin the same thing..why the rush?...would CB and BH trade value been any less in the summer?
I think it's because
this summer the teams that might now want our high-priced vets will also be eying the high-priced free agent bonanza. But if they think they have a legit chance at a championship now, they make the trade. That’s why I think we’re going to trade Jamison before the deadline, probably to the Celts or Cavs, but maybe someone else, who knows.
One silver lining to this is that we’re going to have money this summer to sign some of the lesser-tier free agents, if we can unload Jamison now.
by Tbonebullets on Feb 14, 2010 9:39 PM EST up reply actions
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9031
Scroll down – pretty good summary of who is out there.
thanks..but im too lazy to come up with possible FA's we'd sign...so..
assume we have roster that “returnofswagger” lists below… what would be the best and most possible list of FAs/trades we could get to fill out the roster.
Can someone play GM?
But we don't really have that much money to sign someone.
We are going to have roster spots to fill out. At this point we will have only Gil, AJ, Blatche, Foye(maybe), Mcgee, NY and Taser. I don’t think I am forgetting anyone. Once we get back up to 12 guys on the roster, there isn’t much money left. And I don’t want to go sign a bunch of guys that are starting quality, veteran journeyman. That is just a waste of cap space and stealing time from our young guys and future draft picks.
by returnofswagger on Feb 14, 2010 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
We'll have plenty of money
as long as we are successful in unloading Jamison for expirings. If we can’t, then we wait until summer — but then the problem becomes finding a team who actually wants him. This puts pressure on us to trade him now, for a ham sandwich if necessary, but only if it is an expiring contract ham sandwich.
by Tbonebullets on Feb 14, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
This post and most comments are an emotional and not a logical reaction
Everyone needs to take a deep breath and come back in a few days and re-evaluate.
I’ve given this trade a higher grade then just about everyone here (and it’s still not good) but people seem to be assuming that Grunfeld had better options, or wasn’t told by his boss(es) to cut salary immediately or whatever.
The goal was to blow this up as quickly and completely as possible and Grunfeld had ZERO leverage which is what you need to “win” a trade. He accomplished getting rid of Stevenson’s contract which Prada failed to mention as a “positive”, because like I said this is an emotional reaction and not a logical one.
We didn’t get “zero” talent as Prada mentioned, we got fair talent in Howard and Gooden and it’s fair talent with expiring contracts.
When everyone is done venting and we get to see what chips fall next maybe there will be some rational discussion around here.
by JonathanJoseph on Feb 14, 2010 10:20 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Your definitely in the minority. There is actually a pretty lengthy discussion going on about this very issue not to far up the page.
I'm aware I'm in the minority and I read the above comments...
But that doesn’t change many folks are not thinking straight on this at all. Prada’s post, which has 5 recs so far, states that the Wizards go NO talent back, NO assets, traded 2 cap friendly deals for NOTHING, didn’t display any long term plan, misplayed the market and tried to curry favor with other GMs among other things.
I am a fan of this site and the people behind it but every one of those statements is either demonstrably false or complete conjecture that appears quite easily disputed.
Once again, I’m not suggesting this was a “good” trade, but in order to evaluate it folks need to have a sober, objective look at the situation. And for the most part, through a long post and 127 comments, that doesn’t appear to be the case here. Just a lot of disappointed, emotional ranting.
Rarely do I suggest turning to Mike Wilbon as the voice of reason, but even he says that while this trade hurts it was the right thing to do.
by JonathanJoseph on Feb 14, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
Someone mentioned earlier
that the GM of Portland over values his assets. I really believe as fans of this team we tend to do the same thing. So when we don’t get a $1.50 on the dollar for every trade our team performs there are gonna be some pissed off people.
wait, I'm confused
We, as fans of the Wizards, don’t have a right to be a bit peeved at this trade. We got, MAYBE 25 cents on the dollar. Maybe. Yes, we do have the problem of overvaluing our assets. Young and Blatche are prime examples of that. But we didn’t trade potential here, we traded KNOWN quantities. Mike, Rook and others have demonstrated how this trade doesn’t really give us any cap room. He then went on to state how Ernie’s statement in the press was disingenuous. How was it not? We didn’t make this trade to create a better team, it was a straight salary dump.
If you are blowing it up, say you are blowing it up. But don’t blow smoke up my ass and say that this is an addition by subtraction. And don’t insult be thinking this is anything other than a callous move to get under the cap.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Sorry, but that's not realistic
Next week, there are a lot of people showing up at the Phone Booth with expensive, paid for tickets expecting to see professional basketball.
There has never been, and never will be, a professional basketball team come out and say “Yeah, we’re tanking so that we can cut payroll and gain cap room for next year”. So if your problem is that Grunfeld didn’t say that, then you have no legitimate beef since it’s simply not realistic, despite the fact that the truth is obvious to you, me and everyone who knows anything about the NBA.
Further, I may be 1 in 10,000 of the minority, but I think getting rid of Caron Butler IS ADDITION BY SUBTRACTION. I’m willing to bet that Grunfeld thinks so too, but I dont’ know. I’ve played and coached enough basketball and can tell you that ballhogs who give frequently poor effort kill team chemistry. Caron Butler became THAT GUY, and that’ s a good part of the reason that Dallas wasn’t interested in trading a disgruntled, underachieving player for Butler straight up and why Butler’s trade value around the league has plummeted.
by JonathanJoseph on Feb 15, 2010 4:20 AM EST up reply actions
Again, you are wrong
Both Sam Presti and Danny Ainge, while rebuilding their team, addressed the fanbase and let them know that rebuilding was going to be a process that took at least a few years. They explained the process and how they would be looking to acquire and draft players. GM’s explain the overall plan, ALL THE TIME. They don’t talk about “retooling on the fly,” or offer a weak excuse about players in a salary dump “offering experience.”
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
To be clear
Grunfeld never said anything about “retooling on the fly.” That comment came from nothing more than some league insider quoted by Michael Lee.
by Johnnie Futbol on Feb 15, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
Further
You also fail to respond to the numerous posters who have used examples of more capable GMs as to how this trade could have been better executed. I normally go off ad nauseum on Presti and his moves, but even discounting his luck in Durant, discounting the trade for the number five pick which landed Jeff Green, one is still left with the example of how he turned Rashard Lewis, a player who was a FA, into 9 million dollar trade exemption. Which he then turned into Kurt Thomas, who then became multiple first round picks.
The point is, Presti and others target trading partners where trades benefit both partners, AND provide his team with flexibility down the road. It has been reported in numerous places that EG didn’t want to trade with the Celtics because he didn’t “want to effect the balance of power in the East,” and that he is still mad at the Cavaliers for signing Larry Hughes. Are you kidding me?
But wait, we haven’t even gotten into EG’s drafting history which has been decidedly horrible throughout his ENTIRE career. This is the point where every EG defender rushes out and starts shouting about how he drafted Redd in the 2nd round. Well guess what, he also bombed with THREE first round draft picks with the Knicks, left the Bucks an utter ruin, and then came to Washington and drafted the likes of Pecherov and Young. I think the signs point to the fact that EG is NOT the guy you want rebuilding the team. But keep drinking the Kool Aid.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Most people on this thread are not overvaluing those two guys.
Brendan obviously had more value than what we got. We were offered Blake, Pendergraph and a first for Haywood, yet we ended up with three expiring contracts. You can’t argue that We got all we could for him bc there was a better offer out there.
by returnofswagger on Feb 15, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
Let me get this straight
I spend two hours and thousands of words spelling this stuff out, and you’re telling me it was only an emotional reaction?
That hurts man, it really does.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
No offense but...
Just because you spent a certain amount of time and words on an article doesn’t mean everybody has to agree with it. This is what the purpose of this website is, for the editors to write articles and for us to read them and give our opinions.
His opinion and my opinion also is that this is mostly an emotion based reaction to the trade when nobody knows the full picture or plan yet or whats going on behind the scenes and that this isn’t really a complete negative trade. The trade deadline is not here yet. Theres more to see unfold.
Mike, we all appeciate your writing whether we agree with it or not. Don’t take it so personally. You do an excellent job with this site. Why do you think we’re here?
Wait
I’m just not sure how this blind faith optimism in EG is supposed to work. People are angry, not just because of this trade, but because of EG’s track record. But what you are stating, in that I’m not allowed to critique EG because I’m not a GM and I can’t possibly know what is going on in the board room?
I guess I’ll play a good little sheep and accept that this is a great trade and I should be happy about it.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Did you even read my comment?
Because what you said has nothing to do with it.
Sarcasm gets you nowhere in this instance.
Yes I do
And I apologize for the sarcasm, not only because it doesn’t add anything, but also because it dilutes the point that others are making against this trade.
I think the main point that many are making, which hasn’t been responded to by anyone defending Ernie, is that he isn’t a great GM, and that this trade has been spun as a positive for the team, rather than what it is — a salary dump.
Of course you are entitled to you opinion, and I think you and Johnnie and JohnJoseph all make salient points. But, I think Mike created a post where he pointed out what the Wizards didn’t do in making this trade. All of his statements are true. They didn’t acquire young talent, they didn’t gain that much flexibility, and they received no draft picks, plus we didn’t wait til the deadline to maximize the value of our offer.
As to his opinion, its a blog, not Reuters. I think that he is being much more even handed then myself or any of the other more “emotional” posters on the forum.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Look
I know Ernie is not a great GM and I know this is not a great trade. I never said either of those things. Im not trying to spin this trade into a big positive but im not going to spin it into a huge negative like everyone here is doing. Im going to hold off any knee jerk judgement until I see if EG does anything else before the deadline. Even if he doesn’t im not going to deem this the worst trade in history because there were some positives. You have to weigh everything, not just pick out the stuff you don’t like and magnify it.
Also, if you read over Mike’s post again its impossible to call that “even handed”.
Welcome to the world of journalism
Did you really expect anything different?
by Johnnie Futbol on Feb 15, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
And yes
I agree with lj15’s comments about the excellent job you do with this site, which happens to be one of the best sports sites I’ve come across (amazing considering it’s devoted to the Bullets/Wizards).
Nonetheless, in my mind JonathonJoseph’s comments are a welcome addition to this discussion, and not just because I share some of his perspectives (framkly at this point I’m more confused than anything).
by Johnnie Futbol on Feb 15, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
Prada hasn't been saying you have to agree with this post
all he’s saying is that the fact is, this is a bad trade. It is a fact that we could have gotten back talent for Haywood. We probably could have gotten more for Caron too. If anything, all EG had to do was wait until Weds or Thur so he knew that was his best option(least bad option is a better way to put it). And you are saying everyone(including Prada) is reacting solely out of emotion, out of anger. The fact of the matter is, didnt make us any better and barely moved us to a rebuildng state. We traded away to guys who will change the balance of power in the West, and didn’t even get back a friekin draft pick.
by returnofswagger on Feb 15, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
Of coures it was emotional
And there is nothing wrong with that. When you follow a team and are passionate about them then your emotions will always get in the way. That’s just the nature of things.
It's nothing personal...
And I understand why those few who are/were so emotionally invested in the success of this team are so hurt right now, but your post was way over the top and lacking balance.
We did get 2 capable NBA players in the trade, no? One who was at one point an all-star (like Butler) and one who has started for winning teams. We did get rid of a bad contract and an additional $15M in cap space next year. Those are assets, no? Opening up cap space and flexibility for the upcoming rich free agent pool is a short and long term strategy, no?
So like I said, it’s one thing to think the trade is bad on the whole (and I do), but your post was not a fair take on what Grunfeld had done.
by JonathanJoseph on Feb 15, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
I think
that if you study Grunfeld’s GM history, you will find that he is terrible at rebuilds. Look at Milwaukee for example.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
I actually agree with this
I’m not exactly happy with the trade either but I’m not going to wait and see what happens up until the trade deadline. None of us are NBA GMs so we don’t know what goes on behind closed doors to get deals done or what the options for Grunfeld really were and none of us know whats coming up in the next few days. All we have is rumors, which we never know whether they are true or not.
We’ve seen lots of trades that fans have hated but then they turned out to work wonders for the team in the long run. So we shouldn’t go on long (or short) emotional tirades over things that we don’t know to be facts. Instead lets calm down wait until the full picture is revealed.
Dude what?
Fair talent? Drew Gooden’s corpse and a headcase for a starting NBA center and a guy who is considered a premier small forward>
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Once again, all conjecture and no reality
Perfect example of all emotional rant and no rational analysis.
by JonathanJoseph on Feb 15, 2010 4:29 AM EST up reply actions
Um, I've been on this site
for a fairy long time. You came out of a closet to tweak people. So here is some rational analysis. Try going to 82games.com or Basketball reference. Look at Gooden and Howard’s PER. Then look at their eFG%. Then come back and tell me we got fair value.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Yeah
I think any basketball fan knows that Gooden and Howard stink – especially compared to what we gave away. That’s why we’re all pissed. There’s a reason everyone is saying how great this is for Dallas – with little or no mention of the Wizards. Howard used to be good – but his ankle is done, and it’ll only be downhill for him here on out.
If Jamison doesn’t get traded, he may bring guns to the locker room in anger. Now THAT would be justifiable. :)
My swag was phenomenal.
Fair value
Was never the point. We weren’t going to get fair value. We can keep bitching that we didn’t get any young talent back, but the fact remains that no one wanted to give up young talent to get our players. We’re acting like Haywood and Butler are game changers. They are good, solid players with talent who can compete and make good teams better. They were good pieces for us when we had a good team. But saying that we traded our two best players on a team that won 19 games last year and won’t win 30 this year isn’t saying much. No, we didn’t get fair value. Not much of a chance that we ever would.
None of that matters
Either how long I’ve been on this site or what Gooden and Howard’s PER is.
This is a fire sale, Grunfeld had no leverage, and cap space was the goal not talent.
Painful, but true, and bitching about it isn’t going to change it.
by JonathanJoseph on Feb 15, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
First the trade is good, then its avg, then its just ok
you refuse to use stats, articles, or anything else to back up your obvious dislike of Butler. I’m not sure where you’re coming from.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
please
i cannot believe you are stating it, like it’s a fact, that the vast majority of analysis of the trade on here is essentially irrational. like it’s impossible to think this deal is a turd from a logical perspective.
i’ll make these points:
1 – we didn’t get talent back. we got rentals. it was a salary dump. period.
2 – you obviously strongly dislike butler, which makes you think he’s worthless, but that’s just an assumption, which is likely a false one. since you referred people to wilbon earlier, i also refer you to that article, in which he basically says butler was in an offense that didn’t suit him here and wouldn’t be surprised to see caron go back to all-star form in dallas. the fact that butler’s value dropped so far – if true – has as much to do with decisions ernie has made as anything else.
3 – you are dead wrong about EG’s need to essentially lie to the fans. Ledell has pointed out several other organizations that told their fans the deal. Leonsis himself did it with the caps. Fans aren’t stupid. they know what’s going on.
4 – what are the odds we are free agent players this summer? really? even if we move jamison, i don’t see it. who’s going to come here with the arenas situation all up in the air? both the ownership situation AND the arenas situation will need to be sorted out entirely by the time the market opens. i’m not taking that bet.
so, in conclusion, while i am not wholly against a straight salary dump to give us future flexibility, moving butler and stevenson’s contracts was pretty low on my list of priorities for the team right now. getting salary relief by MOVING AJ, and landing a couple draft picks or prospects should have been the #1 option IMO. ernie didn’t do that. this summer isn’t our target for FAs. FAIL. completely valid perspective.
lastly, the fact that we were in such a salary mess to begin with and now need to take drastic measures to cut salary: ERNIE’s responsibility. i will give him some credit that he retained some flexibility with the Miller and Foye moves so we could dig ourselves out if it didn’t work. but as to the job he did digging us out. i am much less than thrilled.
disappointment with this deal is completely warranted.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 15, 2010 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
This is what I don't get
getting salary relief by MOVING AJ, and landing a couple draft picks or prospects should have been the #1 option IMO. ernie didn’t do that. this summer isn’t our target for FAs. FAIL. completely valid perspective.
Who is going to give us prospects and/or 1st round picks for Jamison. I’ll even take it one step further who is going to give us anything but cap relief for any combination of our players in this market.
I really believe that is why this trade looks so bad. All the trades that everybody is using as comparisons were made when the economy was booming and all the owners pockets were full of money. There is a looming CBA that needs to be negotiated along with a possible lock-out. So why would another team take AJ who is not even the best player on our team and give us the kit and kaboodle.
As an example Presti traded his best player to get back the #5 draft pick and he had to take on the bloated contract of Wally Z. The Wizards are in the process of being sold. Who in the Wizards organization is going to sign off on taking back a bloated contract right now. In the economy and with the owner ship still needing to be figured out.
This trade was not a basketball decision. It was a straight business decision which means it comes from the Ownership. So all this ire directed at EG is misplaced. Plus add on that his hand was forced by Gilberts dumb actions then it becomes pretty plain to me why we got screwed.
i was unclear maybe. the point is
if we were doing a straight salary dump, we should have done that with jamison.
if we were targeting prospects and picks, we should have done that with butler and haywood.
it’s that simple.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 16, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry
Howard and Gooden are not comparable. The only reason we got them was for their contracts, not their talent. Sure, Howard WAS ONCE as good a player as Butler, maybe even better, but not anymore. He’s a lazy headcase now. And Gooden is a decent journeyman, that’s it. What people mean when they say we didn’t get any talent in return is – we didn’t get any talent we can rebuild with. We got a bunch of players who won’t be here next year ( just like we did with the lottery pick trade probably), which means we still have nothing to look forward to. Cap money doesn’t make your team better – spending it does. And since none of the top tier guys are gonna wanna come here, that money will either be wasted on lower level players, or it will languish.
Our best chance at being good sooner was to get back young talent and/or draft picks, then getting lucky in the lottery. The 1st didn’t happen, and I have no faith in the 2nd, since this team has no luck. So where does that leave us? Remember all the years between the Bullets-Bulls series and Eddie Jordans team? Remember the way the team floudered around the lottery in the late 80’s? That’s where this leaves us.
A balanced take is required here....
You say that Howard is now a lazy headcase but fail to own up to the fact that Butler was also a lazy headcase for the past 1.5 seasons.
You complain that gaining cap room doesn’t make you better but spending it does…..GOODNESS. He’s not even done clearing cap room and you CAN’T SPEND ANY MONEY until free agency starts in 6 months.
You’ve only seen 1 piece of the puzzle but are sure that when the whole puzzle is put together the Wizards are doomed to a decade of misery. Good grief.
by JonathanJoseph on Feb 15, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
and again
you refuse address the bottom line point that CJ makes.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
So who's the center now?
Blatche, I s’pose. This could also mean more minutes for McGee. It could also mean more of Antawn playing the 3 (with Gooden at the 4), which for him is in some ways preferable to the 4. Jamison was never much of a physical presence down low.
I’m not happy about this trade, especially losing Haywood (one of my favorite players). But this is a tough market for the Wizards right now, and a difficult situation to be in. Now I just hope they’ll reconsider ditching Arenas.
Maybe with starter’s minutes, Blatche will revisit his brief appearance early in the season as a dominant scoring wonder. Maybe that’s what they had in mind with this trade – to propel Blatche back into MVP mode. :)
Look past Howard and Gooden....
They are 32-game rentals. Give Singleton a chance, I think he is a nice player. And Quinton Ross, who is the only one of these players who certainly will be here for 2010-11 is really a lock-down defender… without the so-called swag and for a piddling small contract.
If we wind up getting a decent 8th and 9th man, cap room next year and lux tax savings this year out of this deal, that is not all that horrible… Now let’s see if or how one or two more shoes drop between now and Thursday.
I’m with you on Quinton Ross, khrabb. I’ve liked him for a while. I didn’t think the Wizards would have to trade Butler and Haywood to get him, but ….
Yes that is an expensive 8th man!
It is soooo clear that EG’s basic marching orders were to clean up the 2009-10 luxury tax issue in order to raise the valuation of this sorry franchise for the Pollin Family interests… which makes his statement on the supposed virtues of the guys we acquired worse than disingenous (the correct word is dishonest)…. This team needs big-time PR counsel. The folks above who cited that some rebuilding franchises have been remarkably transparent about their aims have put their finger on what is wrong here.
This nightmare will end sooner or later, but it will take quite a while to rebuild the fan base.
I sincerely hope
none of these guys will be here next year. Ross weighs less than my 4 year old, and I can’t even figure out what Singleton we’re getting. I’ve heard John and James. Personally, I was pulling for John. He’s made some pretty good movies. Maybe he could make one of the Wizards WINNING that we could watch on the Jumbotron during the game.
Dom
Who cares if he can’t hit a jumper. It just doesn’t matter at this point. Give the kids the minutes and see what happens.
Miller belongs at the 2
Mike initiates offense and gets others involved; SG is a better spot for him. I’d put him at point if I thought he could handle the ball.
i can tell your half joking
but please don’t encourage anyone to keep riding the blatche train of hope. vomit. best thing i heard in this whole mess is that ernie offered blatche up to charlotte for augustin. please charlotte take it!
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 15, 2010 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
Blatche still has tons of promise and shouldn't go.
1) Blatche is 24. Every single person on this board was calling Haywood “Brenda” for his soft game at the same age.
2) Blatche is a competent big man who can play minutes at the 4 and the 5 making $3M per year. Name me another 6’11’’ servicable guy we can find for $3M per.
by JonathanJoseph on Feb 15, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
i never once called BTH brenda
that always bothered me.
i question blatche’s competence. he’s not good at NBA basketball. i don’t understand what people see in him. he is a foul prone turnover machine 7 foot jump shooter with low hoops IQ. i would take michael ruffin over blatche.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 16, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
First of all
1. BF didn’t exist when Haywood was 24.
2. Nobody would have called him “Brenda.” In fact, I would have admonished those and began an impassioned defense of Haywood that would have dominated the comments section. Some of the people I sparred with are longtime members here now. They’ll tell you.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Your GM can go jump in a fire
Not getting Butler sucks. Sending Butler to the MAVS is unforgivable in my body that hates everything and anything about that arrogant city.
Anyways, Yahoo has rumors that we’re now going after Jamison, which confuses me as we have no shortage of good power forwards (Scolandry is better, younger, and cheaper than Jamison from my perspective.) I’ll admit, I’d demand a lot from you guys in exchange for taking on Jamison, but what would you be willing to give up for us to take him?
Minnesotan Rockets fan
What really burns me (source ESPN Insider)
is the following few paragraphs -
“ESPN.com’s Chad Ford has spoken to sources connected to Cleveland and Phoenix and reports Amare Stoudemire to the Cavaliers might be a last resort for the Suns.
According to Ford, the Suns would prefer to do a deal with Philadelphia for Andre Iguodala and Samuel Dalembert. Phoenix is now willing to include Leandro Barbosa in a trade with Stoudemire. A three-team trade with Phoenix, Philadelphia and Cleveland might be play to satisfy the teams."
Gee, waiting for the best offer? What a novel concept.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
The Suns aren't as desperate
For a number of reasons. Also Stoudemire is probably a more appealing commodity than Butler and Haywood combined.
by Johnnie Futbol on Feb 15, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
my kids made the Wiz-Mavs trade on "NBA LIve 10" video game...
…and the Mavs are kicking the Lakers butts. Go Mavs.
Mavs fan here
Not really sure why you guys are completely bummed out about this trade. Josh Howard is in a contract year, so there is no way he’s not going to give 100% effort for the remainder of the season. The most important thing to him is feeling wanted by his team (coaches and teammates), so as soon as he detected he was on his way out of Dallas, he wasn’t able to focus as much on his work on the court.
Less than two seasons ago, we were all saying how J-Ho needed to be the Mavs’ best player in order for this team to go anywhere.. That never panned out due to injury but even at 29, he still has frightening potential as a teams’ first or second option.
There are lots of guys down on Drew Gooden, and you shouldn’t believe any of it. In his time in Dallas, he played smart, aggressive offense and was by far our most intense rebounder.
I know I’m in the minority but I’ll definitely miss the guys we just shipped out.
agree
josh howard and drew gooden are both legit nba players. not as good as butler, haywood, but nevertheless. wiz are tanking the season anyhow. and i’m sure haywood let it be known that he was leaving for a contender after the season.
a starting 5 of foye, miller, howard, jamison, gooden is not bad for a lottery-bound team. maybe getting rid of caron, who clearly wasn’t happy in flip’s offense, will help the team adjust to flip.
if jamison is traded for cap relief we’ll be out of the luxury tax. pollins are happy, ted l. is happy.
we get a top 5 pick, take monroe and make peace with arenas. if howard plays well and stays healthy, we re-sign him. same goes for gooden, foye and miller. that’s a retool on the fly.
ps: i’m german, so i hope nowitzki get’s another shot (or free throw) at a ring.
I like the Bullets
At least Josh Howard knows how to catch and shoot
because Caron Butler sure didn’t. That alone may improve the offense.
1000% correct
Trading Butler will be addition by subtraction.
by JonathanJoseph on Feb 15, 2010 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
gee, you keep call us out for being shortsighted
but every single one of your posts has been anti-Butler. Maybe a little bit of bias there?
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
How is that biased?
I’ve been noting as much about Butler’s game dating back to last season. The reactions to this trade are 24 hours old. Apples and oranges.
by JonathanJoseph on Feb 15, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
Right, but every single one of your comments
has been to denigrate Butler. And lo and behold, when he gets traded out of time, the trade is great. Not once do you point to any statistical evidence, articles, or anything that backs up the fact that he is in your eyes, a lazy headcase, but then claim that you have no bias.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Once again
I did not say that this trade was “great”. You keep putting words in people’s mouths. I said this trade “didn’t stink”.
There is plenty of statistical evidence (negative assist-to-turnover ratio? 42% FG%?) and basketball pundits who would agree that Butler has been lazy and a headcase. I don’t feel the need to dig that up.
by JonathanJoseph on Feb 15, 2010 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
I Agree
It’s not that bad. I just think that everybody was expecting more, and no one thinks that any of the players we got back will be around long-term. That said, I really like the fact that all of the players we got appear to be good defenders, and in the case of Gooden and Singleton, good rebounders. The problem is, we had to give up our best defender and two of our best rebounders to get them.
My hope is that you are correct about J-Ho and that a change in scenery will help him return to form. I always considered Butler and Howard to be very similar players, so maybe a change will be good for both of them. If not, though, then I think we could have done much better.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
josh howard is a rental here
that josh howard is a good player is besides the point. the odds that he is in the team’s future are very low.
maybe it’ll give people something to watch for the remaining 30 games of this year, but that’s not a reason to make a trade.
if you want to argue the trade being good as a pure salary dump, fine, but let’s be clear, that’s what it is.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 16, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
Rental.. That is where you and I disagree
If Josh feels like he is in a good situation as far as playing time, develops a strong relationship with Flip (In my mind there is no doubt that will happen) and things with Gil come to an amicable resolution, there would be no reason for him to leave. He isn’t going to demand crazy money this coming season.
DC is a great city to play in, and as others have pointed out, he will be very close to his home town of Salem.
No matter his price, I don't want him here past the season
There’s just no point.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
There's no point
in employing a skilled swingman who has spent the better part of this decade starting for a perennial contender?
If you are familiar with the Bullets franchise…
…you’d realize we’re sick of washed up guards. Too many trades in the past that just handicapped us for a few years.
We do NOT want him.
My swag was phenomenal.
i believe the team has an option on howard
for like $12 million for next season.
the most likely scenario is they don’t pick up that option. and in that case, i don’t see how he could remain with the wiz, or why he’d want to. but maybe i’m missing something. if so, fill me in.
you’re also pretty much assuming howard plays extremely well here. i’m not sure the dude can stay healthy.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Feb 16, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
From ESPN-
“Given that the Cavs have concerns about well Stoudemire and Shaquille O’Neal would fit together, the team would consider moving Shaq if it acquired Amare. For instance, the Cavs could swap O’Neal and their first-round pick to Washington for Jamison and Mike Miller.”
Sounds good to me
This trade
Pisses people off because now we really don’t have anybody on the team to root for. Jamison is the only player on the team that we can rally around, and he’s probably gone next. Mike Miller and Randy Foye are okay to watch, but it will be hard to really get behind them because they might not be around much longer either. It would have been nice to get some young talent this year because then we could start maybe looking at the future and seeing what our team might be, but it just isn’t going to happen. I believe that’s why most people don’t like the trade, not because it isn’t the most prudent move financially, but because it makes the team much, much much less interesting to watch. That is a hard pill to swallow, especially if you have season tickets.

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