What did you expect?
by Rook6980 on Dec 9, 2010 12:35 PM EST
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PrintEditor's Note: Bumped. Good thoughts from Rook. All this frustration is part of the journey. -Mike
I'm becoming more and more amused by the comments I read about our Wizards. Comments that show an unusually high level of frustration that the team is not performing better. I get it that we fans are passionate about our team. I also understand that (mostly anonymous) commenting on a blog tends to bring out a certain tendency to be more acerbic than if one were discussing the team together in a public setting. But this is a rebuilding team. What exactly did you expect?
Were you expecting the team to make the playoffs this year? Were you expecting to win a ton of games and contend?
Here are some interesting comments I found on a popular blog about a certain basketball team:
broke the cardinal rule. Poor effort. Forget the excuses. The effort was lacking.
and
This is a very, very poor effort. Horrible rebounding. Horrible, horrible defense. Pretty sloppy offense too.
or
I'm tired of watching crappy baskebtall from my favorite team. I'm tired of watching poor effort and zero passion - those things ARE NOT TAUGHT, you either have them or you don't. This is a team, don't forget, that many of us thought could fight for the last playoff spot.
or
I know it's early, but you're now 0-4 on the road and each game has been an insult to the game of basketball. Lots of teams can win at home. The truly good teams overcome overly bouncy balls, thinner air, minimal sleep, back-to-backs, whatever lame excuse you can think up, and they win some road games.
And I think to myself, what are these fans expecting from a young, rebuilding team?
Before I continue, I'd like to share some history. Specifically some history regarding the Portland Trailblazers. Yes, I know the Blazers are a perennial 50-win team NOW. But they used to be awful... Just as awful as your favorite team.
2004-05 they won 27 games, but the rebuild really started the next year.
2005-06 they won 21 games, picked 4th & 7th (obtained LaMarcus Aldridge & Brandon Roy)
2006-07 they won 32 games, picked 1st (selected Greg Oden)
2007-08 they won 41 games, picked 13th (selected Brandon Rush)
Since then, Portland has been a 50 win team.....
I think it's fair to say that every rebuilding team goes through ups and downs. Games where they show incredible potential, followed by games that, well for lack of a better phrase, are embarrassingly bad.
Ted Leonsis told us this is a rebuilding team. He told us to be patient. He told us he will do everything in his power to get this team back to respectability, and eventually contending for a title. He has asked us to "Keep the faith." He told us it may take some time. He knows. He's already done it with the Capitals. This quote is from his blog in 2008:
We haven’t won a Cup yet but that is what we all play for. That is what we rebuilt our team for. It has been a very painful process: one season of dismantling the team; one season of a lockout where our young prospects won a championship in Hershey; two seasons with Alex playing for us where we finished last in the division; and now from last to first and onto the playoffs with a division championship in hand. Thank you for coming along on the ride with us.
Discounting the lockout year, that means that he (along with the rest of the Capitals organization) rebuilt that team in 3 years. Don't you think the Wizards deserve the same three years?
What were you expecting? The Wizards would be challenging Orlando for the top spot in the Southeastern Conference, after rebuilding for only 20 games?
I've seen comments demanding the Wizards fire the Coach; or fire the GM; or fire the scouting staff. I've seen comments demanding they trade this player, or that player.... and I mean, trade comments about EVERY player (except John Wall). I see comments about "poor effort". I see comments about "poor execution". I see comments about "poor coaching", "poor rotations", "poor player development". Comments that say "if only they would play XXX player more" - Or if only "they wouldn't play XXX player so much."
The comments listed above.... the interesting comments from a popular blog about a certain basketball team? Those comments were posted in 2007 on Blazersedge the popular SB Nation Trailblazers blog; AFTER the team had already been rebuilding for two years. Blazers fans were frustrated going through the ups and downs of their rebuilding team. Go back and re-read those quotes again.... They sound familiar, don't they ?
So take solace Wizards fans. You are not alone. Others have suffered through the same feelings.
It's a long road folks. There are no quick fixes. No magic beans.
Have patience.
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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Trade Wall!!!
There, now you have a complete set.
you bastard
I was gonna say that. I need to get to these posts quicker.
by CJHutch on Dec 9, 2010 2:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
In my own defense...
…since I am one of the guilty. I never wanted Flip in the first place. I would have been perfectly happy to see him go last year. I also never liked EG (minus the Caron trade). This specific season has nothing to do with me, personally, calling for their heads. I’ve been doing it the whole time.
i will say
if you’ve always been anti-flip then you get a pass in my book
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 9, 2010 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
I find a ton of consolation in this post.
I have a ton of faith in Ted and John Wall.
My apprehensions come with the “make-up” of some of our players, and mostly with Grunfeld himself. With that said, my mindset did just change for the better, a little bit.
When John Wall is back to having a game a week, where he just lights it up, people will remember the optimism we can have. Its hard because he isn’t playing 100% healthy and we forget how big of a star we are going to have on this team.
by returnofswagger on Dec 9, 2010 12:59 PM EST reply actions
Here's some more consolation for you
For those who are concerned about the “make up” of some of our players…….
The Blazers obtained Rudy Gay and LaMarcus Aldridge in the 2006 draft. Those two are the CORE pieces the Blazers built around starting with the 2006-07 season.
The only players left from that 2006-07 on the 2009-10 Blazers roster were Joel Przybilla, Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge.
The most of the players we see today with John Wall as the CORE piece that the Wizards will try to build around – will NOT be the same players we will see on the roster when the team is once again competitive.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I get where your coming from but for one were playing in the east where sub 500% would get you in the playoffs you still have a 100 million$ man on your team i keep saying blatche has been here way before the rebuilding you can throw nick young in that mix cause thats why they drafted him when they called themselves contending so they would have somebody coming off the bench to get buckets i must say other than last night that has become a success they have a vet who came from a defense oriented team in the bulls (kirk hinrich) and thought he would quality back up so really all in all we have about 5 or 6 players that weren’t here before the rebuilding took place and out of the six only 3 of them get real pt now where emptying out the bench cause of injuries. Whats really bad about it where this young team that doesn’t want to compete i dont think ppl would be so upset if we didnt get blown out by a team that was on a 8 game losing streak and were supposedly badder then us. Finally if you go and look at the story on SBnationdc about the blown draft picks we could have rajon rondo, stephen curry, paul gasol etc on this team i know thats a little far fetched because the draft is practically pot luck but honestly we would already have a future core think when gil went down rajon rondo would have came in to replace him u put him in wit our big three in the princeton offense where they spread the floor enough said but no we got vet’s like antonio daniels and mike miller and randy foye(#5 pick could of gotten stephon curry) who are no longer with us man im just saying it’s not just the lack of hustle on the court its also the lack of good team management .
I quit reading after a couple of lines.
If you want to communicate, you’ll have to make it easier for the reader.
by MR on Dec 9, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Hubert Selby disagrees
Crack open Requiem for a Dream. That overlong single sentence paragraph is going to give me night sweats now.
President of the Chris Whitney fan-club
by Natepyatt on Dec 9, 2010 11:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Wow that was kinda tough to follow
with no punctuation, no breaks and all….
But if I get the crux of your point, had the Wizards drafted well, and kept the core together (Butler, Arenas, Haywood and Jamison) – they may have been a contender….
Well…… yeah….. and if I had purchased a bunch of Microsoft stock in 1986, I’d be pretty happy now too…
But the point of my article was to say to Wizards fans – “you are not alone”… “others have been through this before”…. “your feelings are not unique”…. and mostly my article was a call out to Wiz fans to be patient.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I GET THE POINT
My reference to you was that all that being said you have to look at the team from top to bottom and when you do what is their really to be optimistic about sir. MY POINT IS bad preperation= bad presentation thats why we are what we are. Last i did not think we could contend with tha team i was just making a point if we drafted RONDO we wouldnt had have to pay arenas all that money in the first place i assume.SIR
Talking about Rondo...
it’s such a useless sentiment, why even bother posting it?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Dec 10, 2010 1:48 AM EST up reply actions
Right
Going back all the way to the Kwame Brown draft? Rajon Rondo? We already had Gil at that point, why would we have drafted Rondo? Let’s try and stay in the now….
GO READ THE POST ON SBNATIONDC
Do you know who we took over rondo PECHEROV!!!!!!!! enough said. I said rook makes a good point all im saying is how are we supposed to feel optimistic when were getting blown out by a team on a 8 game losing streak supposedly badder then us and team management has been suspect besides the caron trade.
Who else passed on Rondo?
Lots of teams. We weren’t the only one who didn’t think he would play at this level. Who the hell did? Do you think the Celtics were just lying low so they could steal him out of the draft? Rondo is the kind of success story that doesn’t happen that often. A better example of what you are trying to argue would be the Miller/Foye trade.
Wow
So you use pecherov with your 18th pick it kinda sounds like seraphin(17th pick 2010) even though the jury is still out on seph
My point is
that the draft can be a crap shoot and no one was sure what Rondo was going to be. And by the way, he wasn’t much when the Celtics were only winning 20 games. Just like Seraphin, when they were drafted the jury was out on both Pech and Rondo. You are using hindsight to nitpick the front office decisions and that is a little unfair. At the time there wasn’t this huge clamor for Rondo. We missed on him, just like 18 other teams missed on him. Guess what, we will miss more players, just like every other team in the league. That’s like saying I wish we had taken Shane Battier instead of Kwame Brown. At the time there was no telling who was going to have the better career.
I think
We should have drafted Karl Malone instead of Kenny Green. And Kevin Garnett rather than Rasheed Wallace.
by CJHutch on Dec 9, 2010 2:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
If we had drafted KG instead of Rasheed
We just would have traded him for Bobby Hurley and a protected 2nd round pick
Only one problem with this fine post
Portland still sucks. You can argue that the outcome might have been different if Oden hadn’t turned out to have legs made of balsa wood, but the sad fact is they’re a poster child for the principle that all the lottery picks and shrewd trades in the world can’t help a mediocre franchise. And mediocre is a kind word to describe the hapless franchise that just lost three straight to the weakest beasts in the East, including the hapless Wiz.
The one ray of hope here for the Wizards is that Ted Leonsis has a history of not tolerating mediocrity. I realize he’s never fired McPhee, but McPhee has at least dangled the carrot stick of improvement in front of the fans every season, and Leonsis lives for sold out arenas. Grunfeld’s job is to put butts in seats, and that ain’t happening.
Hapless…. weak….
Bad teams get lottery picks…. the more lottery picks, the bigger the chance of landing a Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Dwayne Wade (or John Wall)….
Look at the contending teams in the East and the West… How many FIRST ROUND draft picks are in their starting lineups? How many are Lottery picks?
Even the teams that didn’t get their core players through the Draft (Boston) – they did it by using the young players they drafted as assets to get what they needed to compete. And it took TIME.
If I believed your premise that “all the lottery picks and shrewd trades in the world can’t help a mediocre franchise” – I may as well just give up being a Wizards fan, and go watch the Caps.
He's "delightfully cranky"
Sorry, hit the wrong key--
You miss my point—the rot starts at the top. Portland has lousy ownership. Now at last, the Wizards no longer do. I was offering that as some hope for change.
With the current cast of clowns running the organization—mediocre management, the wrong coaches, the world’s worst medical staff—nothing will change no matter how many lottery picks we get. My point is that Leonsis will shake things up. All I was saying is that Portland was a poor example—OKC works way better.
But Portland was a contender for as long as I could remember, up until recently
I’m not sure if their ownership has turned over in that time, I think not, but they were always in the mix as one of the best teams in the league, through the 80’s and 90’s, and they made their second run at a title without any big name, drafted player.
Well....
even though I’m sure there were disgruntled fans of the Sonics….. I couldn’t find any quotes…. and, even though the team was rebuilding when they relocated to Oklahoma City – and the team sucked for a couple years – the fans, for some odd reason, never seemed to get really far down on the team… I chalk it up to giddiness over just having a team…. ANY team… even a bad team.
And, contrary to your belief, I’m of the opinion that the Portland Trailblazers will be one of the top teams in the West for years to come.
He's "delightfully cranky"
So
I couldn’t very well base my article on OKC – and say “cheer up Wiz fans – see, OKC fans went through this too….” When they really didn’t.. Those fans didn’t lose heart. They didn’t continually call for changes in management, coaches, players…. They didn’t post discouraging and disparaging comments on blogs… (at least not to the extent of the Blazers fans in 2007 and the Wiz fans in 2010)…
So – to make my point… I chose Portland.
He's "delightfully cranky"
It Doesn'
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
Damn Fat Fingers
It doesn’t have to take that long, Rook. Most of the contending teams never sucked for very long. Maybe a season or two, but that’s it. The elite teams like the Spurs, Lakers, Jazz, and Heat never find themselves out of contention for very long. There are other models to emulate other than OKC and Portland. And unlike OKC and Portland, the other models actually bring home championships.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
Jazz have never won anything
Lakers and Spurs are riding guys in the conversation of best players ever, in Duncan(top 10-15 if you throw postseason success in as a factor) and Kobe. It is hard to make model of those teams when really, it is largely attributed to one lucky draft pick. Duncan could have been Oden or Bynum and where is SA for the last 10 years then?
Miami does have one ring where the lord reached down and touched DWade for a series, other than that, they don’t have all that much success in their history(I don’t think)
by returnofswagger on Dec 9, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Assuming they had some good drafts
in place of those championship years. Utah is right where they want to be right now. They should be around after Kobe’s Lakers and Duncan’s Spurs are gone. Competing for titles.
But that was all beside the point we have going….
by returnofswagger on Dec 9, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
The Jazz won plenty, just not a championship
alot of that was historically bad timing.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
Like Denver or Phoenix
And have huge contracts and bad trades force a team with a superlative player to jettison talent for financial reasons? Look we are emulating the Spurs already, those other teams have spent periods not contending recently and the Lakers buy championships pure and simple. The financial aspect of things you NEVER take into consideration. Big contracts and stupid trades have derailed teams with awesome young players like New Orleans. Plus isn’t judging Portland or OKC right now kindof stupid? Are you saying they will never do better than last year? How about we wait for our Superstar to mature before crying about being out of contention? If we suck this bad in 2-3 years I’m with you but right now I think you are getting way ahead of yourself. Unless you have a time machine and know how everything will work out. In that case accept my most humble apologies.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 9, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
I Don't Get Your Points
Like Denver or Phoenix
And have huge contracts and bad trades force a team with a superlative player to jettison talent for financial reasons?
So what? Those teams are both still in playoff contention, and are only a shrewd move or two away from returning to the elite. I would much rather be in those team’s shoes.
Look we are emulating the Spurs already,…
Say what? The Spurs have made the playoffs 20 out of the last 21 seasons! In their franchise history, they’ve never had more than 1 rebuilding season, ever! How exactly are we following them?
…those other teams have spent periods not contending recently…
Who isn’t contending?
…and the Lakers buy championships pure and simple.
The Lakers still had to operate under the rules of the CBA. Yes, they have gone well into luxury tax land, but I’m sure Ted Leonsis would to if he thought that was the way to win a championship. It’s not as easy as just “buying” a championship, however. You have to draft well, trade well, and be willing to bring in key free agents when needed also. I don’t trust EG anymore when it comes to drafting well, and most on this board want to forgo all meaningful trades and free agent signings, when those are the things we can learn from the Lakers, even if we don’t spend as much money as they do.
Big contracts and stupid trades have derailed teams with awesome young players like New Orleans.
What’s derailed the Hornets is ownership problems. They are a poor example.
Plus isn’t judging Portland or OKC right now kindof stupid?
I’m not judging their futures, all I am saying is that they haven’t proven that their models work yet. Until they do, we shouldn’t follow them. We should follow the models that produce championships.
How about we wait for our Superstar to mature before crying about being out of contention?
How long did the Spurs fans cry with Duncan? How long did the Heat fans cry with Wade? How long did the Nuggets cry with Carmelo? How long did the Bulls cry with Rose? Why can’t we be like those teams and surround our superstar with talent before they completely develop?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
Sigh
Look PHO and DEN have each has their championship chances diminished cuz they had to dump valuable players for purely financial reasons. Think how much closer PHO would have been if they hadn’t dumped all those draft picks, or could have kept JJ, or Kurt Thomas when he was one of the best guys in the league at checking Duncan. Or Denver dumping Camby, or setting themselves back by trading for AI, Signing Martin?
Heat won 15 games in 2007 and haven’t gotten out of the first round since they won it all. Jazz spent 2003-2005(3 seasons) out of the playoffs. Lakers missed the playoffs in 2004 then spent the next 2 years squeaking into the playoffs and losing in the first. But you already know that.
The Lakers paid like 25M in luxury tax payments last year. I haven’t seen anything from Ted that says he’s willing to be making those payments. They work with a bigger budget than can other teams.
Hornets and Knicks are perfect examples of what happens when your “make moves just to make moves” strategy isn’t bailed out by the Kevin McHale and Chris Wallace’s of the worlds. If there is an actual move out there that we aren’t making that would improves us let me know. Till there are legitimate moves to be made I’m cool with acquiring young talent who can grow or be used to make a move. I haven’t seen us turn down anything that makes me despondent like you. Once again I think you have picked a possible future scenario, decided it is is gauranteed and then used this fiction to unleash rants.
Believe me dude I wish we had playoff team pieces still on our roster like the Spurs and the Bulls did when they got their guys. Unfortunately Abe falling in love with Gil and AJ and trying to make one last playoff push before he died left us at a much lower starting point. In fact we are partly so crappy because we followed your advice. We made win now moves, eschewed drafting and developing and went for it. That failed epically and now we have to start from scratch. Oh well. I still see nothingwe have done that prevents us from squeaking into the playoffs next year. Or contending in the next 2-4 years.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 9, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry - a couple more thoughts...
Portland still sucks
They won 50 games last year… and 54 the year before. Yeah – they’re flirting with 500 right now… 10-11 on the season, and in 9th place in the West…but they’ve had injury problems (and not just to Oden) …. Anyone that thinks Portland won’t be there at the end will have surprise come March… The Blazers (along with OKC) are some of the young teams in the League that will take over the top spots in the West once the old Lakers, Spurs and Mavericks finally have to rebuild their rosters.
Oden hadn’t turned out to have legs made of balsa wood,
Sucking for many years in a row allowed Portland to get three top 7 picks (#1, #2, and #7) in different drafts. Even Oden, who has not played many games because of injury – will be valuable to the Portland franchise… if nothing else, they could trade him for a valuable piece + a first round draft pick right now… He’s certainly worth more injured, than Yi Jianlian is right now healthy; at least as far as trade value is concerned.
He's "delightfully cranky"
Again, I say: poor example--
“With the Trail Blazers’ obvious struggles and the health challenges (that’s putting it mildly) of Greg Oden and Brandon Roy, two people with knowledge of the team’s strategy told CBSSports.com that Portland management is contemplating trading older players and going young. The obvious targets for such a purge would be Marcus Camby (36), Andre Miller (34), and Joel Przybilla (31). Roy isn’t old, but his knees are — though one of the sources said Portland would find no takers for the five years and $82.3 million remaining on Roy’s contract, given the state of his meniscus-less knees. Przybilla ($7.4 million expiring contract) and Miller (whose $7.8 million salary in 2011-12 is fully non-guaranteed) are eminently moveable. Another candidate to be dealt, though not because of age or health, is Rudy Fernandez, who has wanted out of Portland for some time. Sources caution that the Blazers have engaged in only internal conversations about this strategy, and it is contingent upon the team (10-11) continuing to struggle. But the writing certainly is on the wall for major changes in Portland. "
From: http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/26323465?source=rss_blogs_NBA
In other words, they’re in pretty much the same place the Wizards were in last season. Not the model we want to be using.
I still agree with all your other points and have been writing the same things myself.
POrtland will still probably make the playoffs in the far stronger west.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
Part of the journey
God, I love the way Mike Prada writes….. I wish I had half the creative blood in me that he does….
He's "delightfully cranky"
Me too.
I settle for creative insanity.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I Would Feel a Whole Lot Better
If the Trail Blazers had gone on to win the championship. They haven’t, so it’s like saying, “don’t worry, if we just rough out a few more terrible seasons, we might make the 2nd round someday!” The thing is, we made the 2nd round 6 seasons ago, and we never really tore ourselves completely down to get there. Yeah, we had one sucky season after Jordan left, but even that season wasn’t so bad. In 2003-04, our point differential was -5.6 points. Our current point differential is -8.5. In 2003-04, we had 17 games where we got blown out by more than 15 points, or about once every 5 games. This season, we already have 7 games where we have gotten blown out by more than 15 points, exactly once out of every 3 games.
So while we may end up with a similar record as that woeful team from our past, I would argue that even that team was more fun to watch than this current bunch of softies who play with no heart and no effort. And what exactly is the payoff be being this terrible? Can anybody point to a team that won a championship within 5 seasons of being this bad? Because if nobody can, then I would prefer if we build a team a smarter way. I’d rather not suck for a long time so that we can someday be average like the Trail Blazers.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
Well, to be fair
Portland got derailed due to injuries. But I think our situation is comparable because it took them forever to change their culture, and whether they win a title or not, they did change their culture.
Yeah, we forget
that Portland saw their team as full fo scumbags, after years and years of being one of the best teams in the league. They had to really blow the whole thing up and start over again, and I think that it’s worked out pretty well for them, as well as can be expected when you are playing in a stacked Western confrence.
Spurs?
Won 20 games when the Admiral was out, and then won 2 years later with him and the Big Fundamental.
Boston was bad (24 wins) the year before they won.
Miami was bad (25 wins) a few years before they won.
"Be patient or be a Heat fan" - MR
There is Bad, and Then There is Us
All three of those examples had a smaller point differential in their respective “bad” seasons, and all three didn’t get blown out as often as we do.
I should clarify my challenge. Can anybody name a team that had just as bad or worse a point differential as us (-8.5), and got blown out by more than 15 points at least once every 3 games, and then gone on to win a championship within 5 seasons? Because that is the kind of “bad” I’m talking about. Not just bad, but exceptionally bad. So bad that it is even failing to meet expectations of those who knew that this would be a rebuilding season. There is no excuse for this kind of bad, and I don’t think any good can come from it.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
The worse the Wiz are....
the better chance they have of getting high draft picks…
The worse they are over a number of years… yes YEARS… the MORE high draft picks…
silver lining, you know.
He's "delightfully cranky"
I dont like carte blanche to lose, personally.
Being a bad team is one thing, consistently getting blown out and showing no improvement is something else. Last night’s blowout is a bit of a red flag to me…there is no silver lining to being awful with no signs of progress shown over the course of a full season. At that point you are teaching young players to perform poorly.
Basically, how you lose matters for a young club
How Did That Work Out for the Clippers
Or the Kings, or the Timberwolves, or the Grizzlies. They have had lots of silver linings over the years, and have gotten very little from them. Put us in that category. Teams that like to take lots of seasons to rebuild more often than not stay rebuilding forever. It’s not a journey that I’m particularly interested in as a fan. But now I’m beating my own dead horse. Sigh.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
The Clippers, Kings, Wolves, and Grizzlies
All have differnt levels of success. The Clippers just suck, so they don’t count. The Kings only started their rebuild as of a few seasons ago, and before that they were one of the best in the West. The Wolves have also just started their rebuild after the Garnett trade. The Grizzlies, well, they have their own problems. My point is not all of those teams you mentioned have been grinding their gears. The Kings and Wolves are really just in the beginning stages of their rebuild and are still searching for an identity. The difference between us and them is that we have John Wall and they have Cousins and Beasley.
Can you honestly say we look more promising than the Clips?
From what you’ve seen this season, would you rather have Wall or Blake Griffin?
Not sure, really
Griffin is great, and so is Wall. We need to see more of Wall to get a sense of who is the better player. Right now, Griffin is certainly playing better. But I think if you put a gun to my head I would still rather have a PG rather than a PF to build around.
yes
because we’re not owned by david sterling
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 9, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
That's the important point
The Clippers have have a few rosters on the verge of becoming very good over the years, but the organization is run so poorly that almost all of their good players bolt as soon as they are able.
"Be patient or be a Heat fan" - MR
I Hope By Looking at Those Teams You See My Point
The Clippers just suck, so they don’t count.
Why not?
The Kings only started their rebuild as of a few seasons ago, and before that they were one of the best in the West.
By few, you mean the past 4, with this season shaping up to be their 5th. And they are actually getting worse, not better.
The Wolves have also just started their rebuild after the Garnett trade.
They didn’t start sucking with the Garnett trade, though, they have been collecting lottery picks for the past 6 seasons.
The Grizzlies, well, they have their own problems.
The Grizzlies have the same problem as us. They suck, but everybody thinks it’s OK that they suck, because they play young players and are “rebuilding”. Then they go out and suck some more. When does it end?
Do any of those teams look like they will be in the 2nd round of the playoffs any time soon? If not, then why are we following their lead?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
Do any of those teams look like they will be in the 2nd round of the playoffs any time soon? If not, then why are we following their lead?
Faith….
and because, frankly, I can’t think of a better way to build a championship team – short of someone giving us Pau Gasol or Kevin Garnett in a one-sided trade. Of course… you need draft picks, and young prospects to even talk to teams that will trade a top player like that…. so……………………………………………………………………………………………………….
He's "delightfully cranky"
And you need a GM who is a savvy evaluator of young talent
I’m sorry, but the jury is out on that. EG is much more of a buy low guy than a talent evaluator.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
My point
was that those teams have had success in the recent past, and that they were winners for the same reasons most teams start winning: a lopsided trade (Webber/Richmond) or a hall of famer in the draft (Garnett). It’s not that those teams are incompetent, it’s that recreating thst success is not easy.
Where Does John Wall Rank?
I think Wall has the potential to be a Hall of Famer, but he isn’t going to get there surrounded by this cast of misfits. I’m sure everybody agrees with that. The point I am arguing is that we shouldn’t be satisfied to wait on that to happen for several seasons. We should get good talent as soon as possible, and start competing as soon as possible. To quote one of my all-time favorite movies, Tommy Boy:
“Any business that tries to wait it out will be just that, out.”
Truer words have never been spoken. I’m ready to see deals start happening, hopefully by the trade deadline at the latest.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
and when/if the new roster plays the same way
do you look at the Coach and think “Oops.”?
So - you think John Wall is THAT piece to build around...
and you think “moves” should be made to get some premier players around him to build a Championship team….
OK – what assets are you going to use to get those premier players to surround John Wall with?
OH , Yeah – the Wizards don’t have any assets… Blatche? He’s gonna bring you something good? Young? Seraphin? Yi?
Bundle them together- add in our unprotected first round pick for this year – and you STILL cannot better the New Jersey offer for Carmello Anthony…
Even your way – takes time to accumulate the assets needed to make those big trades… Boston accumulated enough assets to trade for KG and Ray Allen.
Boston drafted and acquired enough good young players to trade for Ray Allen (Delonte West, Wally Szczerbiak and the rights to the 2007 NBA Draft’s No. 5 overall pick -Jeff Green. )
AND for KG (Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green, Al Jefferson + their 2009 first round pick)
You want to follow the Boston method of building a Championship – you need assets – and the Wizards don’t have em….
He's "delightfully cranky"
Point of historical reference
at the time of the Garnett trade, Jefferson was considered one of the premier up and coming big men. He was like DeMarcus Cousins without the attitude. We need a player with that kind of “perceived” pedigree to get anything back.
One of the other problems that I think we have been ignoring is that since Blatche and Young have been in the league for a bit, the word is out on them. Or at the very least they have been type cast. And its very hard to make a trade of equal value when talent evaluators and media are calling your so-called assets knuckleheads.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
Excellent point...
And it goes back to my original comment about obtaining “assets”…. because right now, there aren’t any GM’s clamoring to trade for Blatche, Young, Yi, Arenas, Hinrich, Josh Howard or Al Thornton…
There may be some interest in JaVale McGee – if the Wizards want to do something like that, but McGee only makes $1.6 Million – What could they possibly get back for him of value?
I’m sure there might be interest in Seraphin or Booker – but again, what would they get back…
He's "delightfully cranky"
Just to make clear
I was just attempting to add historical context. I can see the points that both you and Cupp are making.
I actually don’t think McGee has much value at his current salary level in terms of a trade, unless the Wizards were truly desperate to unload Arenas to someone/anyone during the year.
I fall more in line with your thinking in that we need to see where we fall in the draft for at least one more year and acquire assets (whether just the picks or actual players) and assess the situation at that point.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
I Searched Your Post, Rook
And I didn’t see Javale McGee’s name anywhere. The Celtics traded Al Jefferson, as Sean pointed out below, considered to be a “premier up and coming big man.” Do you not think that Javale couldn’t net us something good, especially when packaged with players like Blatche, Young, and a pick?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
uh.... No
JaVale has not proven anything.. yet… only that he’s been benched by his Coach for continually blowing assignments.
Right now, McGee probably has as much trade value as another big man, with super athleticism, that doesn’t seem to “get it” yet – Anthony Randolph
He's "delightfully cranky"
We see the highlight dunks and blocks….
General Managers see the poor rebounding fundamentals, blown defensive assignments, tendency to go for up fakes – and the fact that this is his 3rd year in the League and his Coach still doesn’t trust him in crunch time….
Sure – they’ll take McGee off our hands – for a ham sandwich, or a player like Quinton Ross….
He's "delightfully cranky"
Thank you
I’ve been waiting for someone to agree with me on that. We may all think the world of McGee and his abilities, but to the rest of the league he is a complete mess.
We have started to sound like Portland fans in the way we obsess over the talent we have on hand and how they are unappreciated.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
then again
mcgee did get a team usa invite so there are people with eyes on the guy that think highly of him
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 9, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
Mostly because everyone else and their mother passed
But point taken. I just don’t think we should be shocked when we receive an offer and it’s for a guy like Serge Ibaka rather than Carmelo Anthony.
The best offer we could get for Blatche was for DJ Augustin. That tells you something about true value.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
I think JaVale has plenty of trade value
But his salary is also low, so you can’t match salaries if you want to trade him for a star player.
Package Him Up
But his salary is also low, so you can’t match salaries if you want to trade him for a star player.
I see that Andray has a nice fat salary…
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
And Anthony turned out to be a throw in
in the David Lee sign and trade. I never understood Grunfeld’s desire to keep acquiring these high upside guys, as one would think the Kwame Brown trade could only happen once.
I think the depressing thing that fans need to come to grips with now is that we have taken one, and only one, step on a journey back towards relevance.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
season isn't over
let’s see what the point differential is at the end of the year.
and steadyhand makes a very strong point regardless
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 9, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
My Point
Is even those teams put forth more effort, mailed-it-in a lot less, and were therefore more fun for their fans to watch. That’s what fans should expect, even out of a rebuilding team.
And by the way, if steadyhand’s examples are a good comparison to us, then that means we should be ready to hoist a championship trophy at some point in the next 2 seasons correct? Because those teams all did. They didn’t sit around and tell their fans, “it will take a long time, people”. Because it didn’t take a long time. The Spurs missed the playoffs 1 season in the past 20, the Celtics missed 2 of the past 9, and the Heat 3 of the past 15. None missed for more than 2 seasons in a row during those stretches. We are currently working on our 3rd with no end in sight.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
That’s true! I remember some Wes Unseld-coached teams that tried really, really hard, but the talent level was really low, lower than the talent level of the 2010 Wiz by a good margin. Michael Adams should not be your starting point guard, ever.
That demonstrates why many fans are disappointed with this particular team: the talent level is actually pretty good. It’s just that the best talent (Wall, JaVale) is too youthful for us to really expect winning on a consistent basis. But to see the lack of overall effort, when you know it is possible for a lot more: that’s reason to throw a shoe at the TV.
You just want to go to the Playoffs?
Because the Celtics were not Championship contenders, even when they WERE going to the Playoffs…. Nor were the Miami Heat… except the ONE year when Shaq and Wade dominated the playoffs for one brief month.
The Spurs may have made the playoffs, but they were never a championship contender until Duncan was drafted. Even during the David Robinson years, they made the playoffs, but never made it past the Western Conference final – and then only got to the WCF ONCE…. failing to make it past the first or second round every other year…
He's "delightfully cranky"
Yes, the playoffs. That would be nice. You can’t become a contender until you become a playoff team to see how well you do. And if you still need to do more, then you do more.
Exactly
Making the playoffs is not the final destination, but it is a stop along the way. You have to get there first, then build upon that.
The Spurs were not championship contenders, but they were always in the playoffs. Then through good luck they were able to draft a great #1 player after just one sucky season, and they haven’t missed the playoffs since.
The Celtics were always in playoff contention, but were just a player or two away from the title. They never tore down to rebuild, though. They kept their best player – Pierce – and were able to get great players back with the late round picks that they had. They didn’t need to be in the lottery forever to get there.
The Heat made the playoffs in Wade’s 1st season! How’s that for a rebuild. Surround your talented star with talented vets and make a run at it. Then add Shaq. That’s the model I would like to see us follow. Make the playoffs as soon as you can, then add to that. Don’t sit around in the lottery forever. It does nobody any good – not the team, and not the fans.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
What have we done to preclude sneaking into the playoffs next year?
How do you know we are gonna sit around in the lottery forever? You have decided on your own personal view of the future and are ranting and raving about your own personal fiction. I can admire your mae.jude like singular intensity for one topic but I think you are creating some sort of predestined future that is one of many possibilities. I haven’t seen us do anything that has prevented us from getting better in the future.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 9, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
I Haven't Decided
I’m arguing the point. I would be very happy if the Wizards made it to the playoffs next season. I would also be happy if they won more than 30 games this season. It doesn’t look like it’s going to happen, and my goal is to convince people that it should. We shouldn’t be satisfied with sitting in the lottery for several seasons in a row. Can I assume by your post that you agree with me?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
I'm not afraid to make moves just not sure there is anything out there that we are refusing to do
I fear your singleminded need to do something just to do something. Sometimes you can horse trade your way into contention. Sometimes it screws you so that when you are ready your roster flexibility is handicapped by stupid moves you made earlier just to make a splash. Plus once you start making series of moves like that it invariably inflates payroll. I’d rather let Wall establish himself(1-2 years) before we started that unescapable escalation. I prefer a larger championship window with Wall in his prime. I fear your desperation to make moves will lead to scenarios like Hughes-Marshall-Jones to the Cavs, Peja to the Hornets, 2009 Wizards etc…..
I think you have created a false dichotomy betwen doing something, anything now and wanting to wallow in the lottery for years. I’m down to keep on getting young players, acquire draft picks, develop Wall and if an good opportunity arises in the next 2 years then do it. If we are still like this 2 years from now I might be at your level but right now I think it’s a bunch of steam about something that might not even prove to be relevant 1 year from now.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 9, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
we won't sit around lottery forever because
We now have smart management. That being said, we would do well to sit around in lottery territory for another year or two I think. I can see moving up in the draft next year to get a key piece and maybe packaging in Gil to do it, this solving 2 rebuild issues at once.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
I would even go as far as to say
At least half the roster will be turned over by 2013 if there is a lockout next year. Lots of young, cheap, short term contracts on this team. I like the flexibility the team will have in a few years once we really see what Wall needs around him to be successful.
I'll go farther than that....
I don’t believe there will be 4 or 5 players from the current team still on the roster by 2013…
He's "delightfully cranky"
I think this is only true if Ernie moves on after this year
But it was a good article and I’m glad somebody made this point emphatically. I still don’t think it’s too late to trade Wall & McGee for renting Melo for 2/3 of a season. IT"S NOT TOO LATE TO WIN 30 GAMES!
by Elvin_is_my_Elvis on Dec 9, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
Careful with that stuff...
Somebody might agree with you
by returnofswagger on Dec 9, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
GOOD POST ROOK
I have faith in the team the team needs to start showing faith in them selfs i mean this is just crazy, but good point we are who we are for the moment.
Like the post Rook
I’m not worried and have patience. I’m actually enjoying this season watching guys like Wall and Booker and Seraphin. Plus McGee and NY, not to make them out to be All-stars, but they really surprised me. I don’t view this team as the whole foundation. Only a handful of guys will be here 2 years from now so it’s not like this is some complete team that we’re hoping to ride to a championship. Thanks for the post even though I am sure it won’t do anything to stop the daily BF freakout that can be so tedious and repetitive.
The freakout's are understandable...
Heck, I get frustrated with this team too…. One of the reasons for this article was I caught myself agreeing with the comment someone was posting about trading Blatche – for essentially nothing…. then found myself agreeing with another post stating they thought Blatche’s problems all stem from his foot injury, and that he should have been in better shape by now….
both posts reflecting frustration about the same player – but from completely different angles…
I just needed to get back to the middle…. and I remembered Ted Leonsis saying that this would happen. There would be ups and downs; and that he wanted the fans to be patient. That the Wizards would be rebuilding through the draft – and that it would take time.
He's "delightfully cranky"
Rook, once principled response is to point out the more true (or reaistic) view of human nature: how can you not expect a FAN to make such comments? We want to see the team perform, but many of the same old players show the same lack of effort and/or sloppy play. The new players need experience, but the real fan wants to see them play better. Even though the logical, analytical viewer would tend to jeer at the emotions of the plebes, a fan like me would rather not watch at all if I can’t have my emotions and my basketball, too.
I just wanted to point out
that frustration with the team’s play is nothing new… it’s not ONLY the Wizards players that have been accused of being lazy, or not putting forth effort by their fans…
Real fans will watch , even if the team is bad, just to see that one special play – or to see John Wall’s progression from game to game – or to analyze which players might fit in in 3 years when the team is good again… or even on the off chance that they will, for one game, put it all together and show us what might be…. what the future holds….
He's "delightfully cranky"
by Rook6980 on Dec 9, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The problem is the injuries to Wall
A lot of people (and I include myself here) were expecting the losses but were excited to see the young talent we drafted and how they would play together. We’ve only gotten glimpses so far this season, for a variety of reasons. It seems as if without Wall we really don’t have much of a chance in these games, which I suppose is encouraging. He’s already our best player, the player most determined to win. Without his fire the rest of the team doesn’t seem to have a lot of confidence in itself. We may still lose with him in the lineup, but without him we are turning into a league wide whipping boy, same as last year.
That’s true — what I’m saying is that the hysterical comments are part of the growing experience, too. I suspect event the fans making the comments (including me) from time to time know that they’re not being completely rational in the moment.
Though I will continue to maintain that Gilbert and Blatche are Bozos. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that we must trade them, as every team in the NBA I’m sure has its own Bozo contingent. For a while they were OUR Bozos; maybe they will be again…
I'm with you
That’s why I had that little blurb at the top of this when I bumped it – all part of the journey.
I don't take this as criticism or anything from Rook.
This post is really just some perspective here. It is nice to out this year into perspective. Because before this season, I told myself we could only win 10 game and I would be happy if Wall, McGee, and the young guys showed improvement. I definitely kind of forgot that with all of this frustration, but that is what this season is all about that. And Ted Leonsis himself, has said just that. We are not going to win much this year.
(sidenote: I am beginning to think that Ted Leonsis is pretty flipping smart about this kind of thing)
by returnofswagger on Dec 9, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
I hear what you're saying, Rook
but my own frustration comes from the fact that a lot of these struggles still could’ve been avoided. A rebuilding team doesn’t need to throw a ton of money at a player whose presence will delay that rebuilding process, but the idea that Yi Jianlian and Hilton Armstrong would shore up the frontcourt was laughable even when those deals were made. Again, they didn’t need to throw a ton of money at, I dunno, Darko’s direction, but there surely were cheap options available who are better than who the Wizards ended up with.
Furthermore, I think fan frustration with Andray Blatche is entirely justified. He certainly is still young, but he’s been on this team forevvvvvver. Multiple coaches now have been unable to get consistent effort from him. This is another reason “settling” for Yi and Armstrong was a bad idea; neither one of them will really push him in practice. Do you really think Blatche has to worry about guarding Armstrong too strenuously in practice?
This goes back to the roster construction vs. coaching debate. For me, the issue isn’t that this is a rebuilding team who struggles, it’s that it’s a team being “rebuilt” in an unconvincing manner.
Ridiculous Upside, where developing talent and winning are not mutually exclusive.
I don't think anyone much better was available at the price we got Armstrong for
Gooden, who’s serviceable but not great got $32 million for 5 years. The Darko deal was another I would not have wanted. I don’t like Yi, but he really only cost us cap space for this year, since NJ gave us money to take him (maybe that should have been a clue about his prospects). But really, the options were spend unwisely, or fill out the roster with marginal NBA talent. Perhaps we could have picked up someone less marginal, but we would not be winning games with what was available.
by Elvin_is_my_Elvis on Dec 9, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
OH yeah... I think there have been mistakes made....
The Wizards organization, under Ted Leonsis, is not 100% right on everything…
I don’t agree with taking on Hinrich’s $17 Million contract to get the #17 pick, when the #11 pick was available for Mo Pete’s $6.5 Million contract + a couple later picks…
I don’t agree with trading away two picks to move up to #23 to pick Booker , when he would probably have been available later anyway.
I don’t agree with allowing Shaun Livingston to walk, when he’s just the kind of young player with upside the club needs… especially considering he would have only cost $3.5 Million for 2 years.
But still – I LIKED the fact that the Wizards were dealing on draft day… I like the fact that they used their cap space to pick up draft picks…
He's "delightfully cranky"
I wasn't elated by a bunch of their decisions either
I think the Wizards could be a better team this year with some different moves, but I don’t think they did anything so fundamentally stupid that they’re way worse than they would have been. I liked Singleton but he wanted more than they wanted to pay. Maybe it wasn’t a very good move, but it wasn’t a really horrendous one either.
My sense with the team is that they are moving in the right direction, despite how bad things are at the moment, and that they didn’t do anything in the past year to derail that. If they still suck in two years time, I’ll try to remember and admit I was wrong. But I don’t think Singleton would be on the team two years from now either way.
Who knows. Yi might give us some props with China, which could pay off years down the line. Maybe it’s worth it for jersey sales alone.
by Elvin_is_my_Elvis on Dec 9, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
I think
The Yi move was a no brainer. The guy’s not even 25 years old. He’s an athletic 7 footer who can shoot outside AND play down low some. He has played well at times in his career. Plus, didn’t we get some cash for him too? Yi may not be meeting expectations, but is rather have him (and the 3mil) than Quinton Ross.
by CJHutch on Dec 9, 2010 3:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yi is meeting my expectations
Which were pretty low. And isn’t he really 26? Whatever age he is, he’s not a good NBA player. Still, he’s basically free and draws Chinese fans. Guaranteed gain for absolutely zero risk from Ted’s perspective. And there’s always the outside chance he suddenly blossoms into a useful player. Next year he’s gone and his minutes hopefully go to a more promising prospect.
"Be patient or be a Heat fan" - MR
he's also
A possibility for a mid season trade. Size can always be battered in the NBA. We got Caron for Kwame. That means we should be able to land a real stud for Yi, right?
Truthfully, I had higher hopes for Yi. I saw some of China’s games, and he seemed like a much more assertive player. I think he’s got a much better work ethic, and keeps in a lot better share, than Blatche. Too bad the skills aren’t there.
I do not want to give up on Yi yet
If we let him go, I am convinced that he will blossom elsewhere, and we will look like idiots. Again. CWebb, Rasheed, Big Ben – ring any bells?
Yi came to the NBA with the understanding of the game of a straight-out-of-high-schooler. Clueless. Foreign country. Foreign language. Foreign climate. One billion people watching. His position on court was jerked around constantly. Twice traded to new teams. Near-historically bad season. New coaching staff every year meant new offensive and defensive systems to learn every year. Even a mid-season coaching change. If you had run, say, Nick Young through the same sort of thing, where do you think Nick would be today?
I say stick him at backup C where he is most comfortable, maintain as much continuity as possible, keep things as simple as possible, and see if he blossoms.
I don't really care if he blossoms
He’s just not a good fit with this mix, and he’s more expendable than Blatche or McGee.
Disagree
I think he is actually a very good fit with Blatche. And right now, nobody on our team is a very good fit with McGee.
Check out the plus/minus numbers for Blatche+Yi. They’re actually positive! (Statistics….. fine print….. blah…. blah…. caveat….)
yeah, i'd rather see more booker and seraphin
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 10, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Booker and Seraphin
Don’t have the inside-outside skills to allow Blatche to make use of his entire repertoire. Yi is our only big that fits the bill.
if you end up being right about this
i’ll give you a ton of credit. because you are WAY out in left field.
i’m more inclined to think you simply want to see yi play, and you build hypotheticals from that starting point that would allow that to happen.
maybe we’ll find out how that lineup works, but i wouldn’t hold my breath.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 10, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Lies, damned lies....
Go to 82games.com and check out Yi’s 5-man statistics. Check the plus/minus numbers for the lineups with Yi-Blatche. Almost all positive, especially if you reject data point #3 that featured the three PG experiment. Considering the overall performance of the team, that seems pretty significant.
Here’s the link: http://www.82games.com/1011/10WAS10.HTM
I have a theory, and I back it up with corroborating statistics.
You have a theory (“i’m more inclined to think you simply want to see yi play, and you build hypotheticals from that starting point that would allow that to happen.”), and you back it up with nothing.
yeah, honestly i wish i could retract my previous comment
my bad yop.
putting blatche and yi out there could have some offensive upside. i don’t think it’ll work to the point where it’ll compensate for yi’s rebounding and defense, but your point is reasonable. eddie jordan would LOVE that lineup.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 10, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
Yi's rebounding and defense are decent for a backup C
And he still has quite a bit of upside. He has all the necessary individual skills. What he lacks is a feel for the game, something which can continue to improve even into the twilight years of an NBA career.
He has all the necessary individual skills.
in the nba i’m not so sure. he’s a terrible finisher around the rim and i think you are being exceedingly generous by saying he is a decent rebounder even for a backup.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 10, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
his game is rigid and mechanical
and i don’t think it’ll be that easy for him to adopt a better feel for the game
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 10, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
He is horrible finishing around the rim.
He has some skills. He is pretty good with that 18 footer. Used properly that can be effective.
by MR on Dec 10, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
he is okay at shooting 18 footers
but not great. name something else he’s good at in the nba. don’t say rebounding. or defense. or passing/playmaking. he can put the ball on the floor but it means jack if he can’t finish or make a play from it.
even for a 7 footer you gotta be able to do something at a high level other than shoot 18 footers to be effective in the nba. darius songaila can knock down 18 footers and he’s looked good in international competition. he’s an nba journeyman, nothing more. at this point if yi has an nba career on par with darius’s he will be probably be exceeding the current expectations of most nba observers.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 10, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
He runs the floor well.
Foot speed he has. Laterally as well. He’s our best pick and roll defender.
I don't expect him to surpass Songila.
What about Yi doesn’t scream NBA journeyman? The three teams he’s been on in three years?
Like Armstrong, he’s a placeholder. He’s cheap. He’s got a short contract. He’s a second/third stringer.
I think he’s being used poorly, expecting to step in and be McGee. When he plays outside and his defender has to follow him he’s more valuable. But he’s not starting quality.
So what’s the problem?
by MR on Dec 10, 2010 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
no problem with that analysis
but that’s a long way from the david thorpe/FIBA hype and the talk about how we were looking at an extension for him during the preseason.
if you were looking at yi as a warm body for this year and not much else, i won’t argue with you.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 10, 2010 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly, I knew we weren't going to be that good this season...
I just hope that we can successfully get rid of Gil (for the sake of the franchise) and hopefully Wall heals up and makes a good run at ROY.
and us being in the east, we still could have a shot at the playoffs
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
Who's on first?
Ok, let’s say it’s a rebuilding year. The organization still needs objectives other than to lose as many games as it can.
Should the team get the developing players a certain amount of minutes over the course of the year? Should certain combinations be tested to see if they will work long term?
Should players be publicly demonized for errors or rewarded for improvement?
I could accept a strategy of rebuilding. But that’s not the plan that Flip is executing.
I do kinda agree there
Sometimes I watch the games and think that Flip just looks down the bench and puts in the first player that makes eye contact with him.
Personally, I didn’t like him starting Booker AND Seraphin. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Booker, and I like what Seraphin brings, but I didn’t think they were ready to start together. They found a nice groove as tempo guys off the bench. Now that Seraphin struggled as the starter, do you send him back to the bench? And, if so, what does that do to his confidence?
by CJHutch on Dec 9, 2010 3:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think Seraphin
won’t be bothered by it. He’s a young guy just coming over from Europe and I don’t think he expects to make an immediate impact either. That being said I do like what he brings when he’s on the court. He seems to be pretty fearless underneath, and that combined with this strength and agility, will take him far.
Distinguishing comments
I agree fans need to have patience. Obviously its a rebuilding year and we’ve had a lot of injuries. Truthfully w/all the injuries we havn’t even had a full squad out there.
But fans have a right to get upset w/lack of hustle and focus, also an issue this year, especially out of the veterans. Sometimes its inexcusable.
3rd, comment all you want about Gilbert Arenas and how many aweful plays he makes game after game. 2 games in a row he threw the ball in the backcourt missing Heinrich by 5 ft.
by Icedoc269 on Dec 9, 2010 3:42 PM EST reply actions
o and 4...
I honestly did and still do believe we have what it takes to make the 8th seed if we can bring it together.
by Icedoc269 on Dec 9, 2010 3:43 PM EST reply actions
My Final Word
Well, maybe not my final word, but a good summary of where I am coming from as a fan. If the Wizards don’t care if anybody comes to the games for the next few seasons, or if anbody watches them on TV, then they should continue their slow “rebuild”, and not care if their players give effort, and not care about bringing in any decent talent for the next few seasons. Ted Leonsis can maybe start an email list of fans who will tune out until the team becomes competitive. Then he can email everybody on the list to let us know that it is OK to watch when the team is finally ready to play at an NBA level.
But if the Wizards actually expect fans to show up, watch the games, and support the team in the meantime, then they have an obligation to put a quality product on the court. The team they put on the court doesn’t have to win a lot of games, or even make the playoffs. But they will be expected to give maximum effort every night, play hard, and be competitive. There is going to be a blowout loss every now and then, that’s understood. But mail-it-in efforts on a regular basis should not be tolerated. If certain players don’t give maximum effort regularly, then they should be shipped out ASAP. I would rather watch a bad team lose games by playing hard and getting outplayed then a slightly better team lose games by not caring and mailing-it-in. The former is much more fun to watch. I point to the crap team we had last season after the trade deadline. That team lost a ton of games, but did so with heart and passion. I loved watching that team play, even as they had heart-breaking loss after heart-breaking loss. But this team has more talent and less heart. And I think we deserve better as fans.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
So I guess you want a veteran team
There is no way for Grunfeld to know whether a guy he picks in the draft will, “give maximum effort regularly,” so by your definition, if he picks a guy in the draft and he doesn’t meet that standard, then he “should be shipped out ASAP.” That will be difficult for a GM — to make trades every time a young player has a stretch of games with poor effort. That’s also a big burden on a 19 or 20 year old. That leaves Grunfeld with the option of trading picks for veterans who have a track record of giving “maximum effort every night.” Trades like the #5 pick for Foye and Miller.
Frankly, you want the Bullets teams in the 80s. Always played hard under Wes. Occasionally slipped into the playoffs and lost in the first round. Abe Pollin never wanted to rebuild in the fashion that we are seeing now. He felt “an obligation to put a quality product on the court,” in your words, or perhaps just wanted to experience some level of success immediately.
Your position isn’t crazy. It just doesn’t seem to me to be realistic if the long-term goal is to reach the upper echelon of teams.
You are Taking it Too Far
I’m not saying only veterans, because there are a lot of guys that you can tell will give maximum effort in the draft by looking at their performances in college. DeMarcus Cousins gave away signs that he wasn’t going to give maximum effort while at Kentucky. Is it any wonder he hasn’t given maximum effort in the NBA? But there are plenty of guys that play hard in college, and that has translated into maximum effort in the NBA. For example, I am very satisfied so far from what I am seeing from Trevor Booker. I want to see Ernie continue to draft guys like that. Even when that guy has an off night, he still plays hard, and that’s what I like about him.
That will be difficult for a GM — to make trades every time a young player has a stretch of games with poor effort. That’s also a big burden on a 19 or 20 year old. That leaves Grunfeld with the option of trading picks for veterans who have a track record of giving "maximum effort every night." Trades like the #5 pick for Foye and Miller.
Why is it a big burden for a player of any age to play as hard as they can every game? I did that when I played any sport, and nobody ever paid me. I think that most players in the NBA play hard every game. I would estimate that fewer than 15% of players league-wide make a habit out of regularly loafing it. The ones that do tend to not stay on any one team for very long. We appear to be an exception to that, though.
Frankly, you want the Bullets teams in the 80s. Always played hard under Wes. Occasionally slipped into the playoffs and lost in the first round. Abe Pollin never wanted to rebuild in the fashion that we are seeing now. He felt "an obligation to put a quality product on the court," in your words, or perhaps just wanted to experience some level of success immediately.
Your position isn’t crazy. It just doesn’t seem to me to be realistic if the long-term goal is to reach the upper echelon of teams.
I prefer to look at teams like the Spurs, Jazz, Lakers, Suns, etc., etc. that are almost always in the playoffs and rarely, if ever, rebuild. When they do rebuild, it lasts about a season or two, and then they are right back in the playoffs competing again. Basically, I want the Bullets of the 80s, but with better scouting, better drafting, better trading, better free agent signings, and a better medical staff. But keep the willingness to always compete, please.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
A few reactions
1. You want Grunfeld to draft players like Trevor Booker. OK, fine. You can either draft high-energy guys without high level talent like Booker or Juan Dixon outside of the lottery, or if you strike gold and get a very high pick, you can get John Wall-type of guys. If you are sneaking into the playoffs, then all your draft picks will be high energy/low talent players. Believe me, I am not advocating the Grunfeld plan of scouting guys from the neck down (see Young, McGee, Blatche, Arenas, etc.), but you need a variety of talents on a team, which means every once in a while you’ve guy to take a chance on talent like that in the late first and second rounds and have the proper organizational structure in place to develop those guys and turn them into high energy players. If you want to trade current players who are high talent/low effort, then of course the Wizards won’t be able to get equal talent/high effort in return. It will be lower talent/higher effort, such as Blatche for Tyler Hanbourgh (sp?). That might help the Wizards put a better product on the floor short term, but not long term.
2. I don’t buy that the Wizards players aren’t trying hard. Confusion often looks like poor effort. For example, a guy drives the lane and a defender in the vicinity doesn’t move to stop him. Why? Laziness, or because he is unsure whether in that situation he is supposed to move over and stop the guy or stick with his man on the wing? For years we cringed when high-energy Etan Thomas would fly over from the weak side for a (failed) block attempt, only to give up the offensive rebound to the man he was supposed to be guarding. My point is: on a young team what appears to be lack of effort often can be confusion and growing pains. And it is encumbent on the coach to establish that effort will be rewarded with playing time. I do not believe that the current players are lost causes who will never amount to anything.
3. Every time you trot out the Lakers, Celtics, Spurs, etc. examples of never rebuilding I have to laugh. The Spurs caught lightning in a bottle — they lost one of the best centers in NBA history for one season and were rewarded with the rights to one of the best power forwards and leaders in NBA history. Hey, I’m all for that strategy. The Lakers and the Celtics are the Lakers and the Celtics; players flock to those franchises, and more importantly they are good organizations with history and the right culture. The Wizards need to build that before they can rebuild without any down years. What you never mention are all the teams that tried to rebuild without any down years. Let’s start with the Knicks – terrible after the Ewing years. The Pacers after Reggie left. Detroit right now. Minnesota in the Garnett years (stuck in 1st round loss year after year).
by disgrunted on Dec 9, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Reactions to Your Reactions
If you are sneaking into the playoffs, then all your draft picks will be high energy/low talent players.
Unless you have a good GM, who can turn late-round picks into rotation players, like the Lakers and Spurs always seem to be able to do.
If you want to trade current players who are high talent/low effort, then of course the Wizards won’t be able to get equal talent/high effort in return. It will be lower talent/higher effort, such as Blatche for Tyler Hanbourgh (sp?). That might help the Wizards put a better product on the floor short term, but not long term.
I completely disagree. Right now Tyler Hansbrough is averaging 15.3 points, 8.9 rebounds, and 1.7 assists per 36 minutes. That all contributes to a 16.8 PER for him. Andray is regressing back to where he was in years past. He has more points than Hansbrough at 17.7, but does so by taking 6 more shots per game at a much lower percentage. He also rebounds less than Hansbrough. His PER is only 14.6. I don’t think Indiana makes that trade straight up. I do agree, however, that Blatche has more talent than Hansbrough. But now the better player is Tyler Hansbrough because he brings it every night, or so I’ve heard. I don’t see a deal working with Indiana right now. They have been acquiring smart, high effort players for awhile now, and probably have no interest in our loafers.
2. I don’t buy that the Wizards players aren’t trying hard. Confusion often looks like poor effort. For example, a guy drives the lane and a defender in the vicinity doesn’t move to stop him. Why? Laziness, or because he is unsure whether in that situation he is supposed to move over and stop the guy or stick with his man on the wing? For years we cringed when high-energy Etan Thomas would fly over from the weak side for a (failed) block attempt, only to give up the offensive rebound to the man he was supposed to be guarding. My point is: on a young team what appears to be lack of effort often can be confusion and growing pains. And it is encumbent on the coach to establish that effort will be rewarded with playing time. I do not believe that the current players are lost causes who will never amount to anything.
You make some good points here. I do agree that sometimes cluelessness gets interpreted as poor effort. Still, if the same player keeps making the same clueless mistake over and over again, then I have to think that he just doesn’t care enough to get better. For some players like Javale McGee, that is looking more and more like the case. For others like Booker and Seraphin, I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt at this point.
3. Every time you trot out the Lakers, Celtics, Spurs, etc. examples of never rebuilding I have to laugh.
You forgot the Suns, Jazz, Heat, and recently the Bulls and Nuggets. Are there simple reasons for all of them to not have to rebuild when they appeared to max out?
What you never mention are all the teams that tried to rebuild without any down years. Let’s start with the Knicks – terrible after the Ewing years. The Pacers after Reggie left. Detroit right now. Minnesota in the Garnett years (stuck in 1st round loss year after year).
The Knicks are an example of what the Wizards would be if they had the Lakers budget. Proof you can’t buy a championship. You still need to make good moves.
The Pacers are a bad example. They sucked after Reggie left because Bird decided to do a long rebuild. He told the fans and the owner that he needed 3 seasons to get it done. They are doing it the smart way, I guess, as I discussed above. But even now they are only average. Hardly a model we want to follow. Suck for 3 seasons and then be average. Just like the Trail Blazers. Bird would have been better off retooling.
Detroit is a good example of a team screwing up a retool. There are a lot of mistakes that a good team can learn from by analyzing their decisions. But while they prove that retooling doesn’t guarantee success, there aren’t enough of them to argue that retooling is worse than a rebuild. Chances are, they’ll be back in the playoffs before rebuilding teams like the Grizzlies, Clippers, and T-Wolves.
Minnesota in the Garnett years was able to take a really good Lakers team to 6 games in the Western Conference Finals. They were stuck in the 1st round before like many good teams can get stuck in the playoffs. The Jazz are still stuck in the playoffs. But I would still rather be in their shoes than stuck at around 25 wins and getting blown out every night.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
Point #1 is wrong
In the NBA , they deal with the best players in the world. Drafting players who have talent AND actually play with effort is not a matter of luck. 90% of NBA players consistently give their best effort, and most of those guys are talented enough to make a difference. It is the front offices job to weed out the guys who really are head cases and flip them over for guys that player their tails of, or not obtain them to begin with.
And the point having a PG like Wall(an outstanding one), or any superstar on any team, is to make up for the talent deficiency of those couple of less-than-average talent guys. Perfect example is how a guy like Derek Fisher fits so well with Kobe. Kobe has enough talent for the both of them, and then you have Fisher making hustle and heart plays to top it all off.
It helps that our star actually is such a distributor, because guys like Booker or Seraphin are going to get their points anyway, even if they can not create their own shot all of the time.
by returnofswagger on Dec 10, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
*End of 1st paragraph-
play their tails off!
by returnofswagger on Dec 10, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
I said below
I haven’t complained about ANYONE’s effort beside Blatche’s.
My point, below was, it isn’t easy for everyone to play with 110% intensity, all of the time, on a bad team. And I do not blame any one guy for felling down trodden after getting themselves spanked by what is very often, a better team.
by returnofswagger on Dec 10, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
then they should be shipped out ASAP
so – how fast is ASAP….?
Blatche has been playing poorly… so after 20 games, the Wizards should ship him out? Where?
Yi can’t seem to establish any position down low – trade him… for who? Who would want him?
You really think that there are all these moves available to the Wizards – that they could just ship out players left and right for not hustling for 20 games?
We would all rather watch a team that hustles and puts forth maximum effort every game…
Perhaps that’s why Flip is starting guys like Seraphin, Booker and Gee…. but the problem is that those guys are not ready to play…. so then what?
You play Hinrich 35 minutes a game – not because he’s good, but because he plays hard…
You play Armstrong, one of the worst Centers in the league – because he gives effort…
You bench your young rising 7-foot uber-athletic Center for making mistakes…
You put in a D-Leaguer as your starting SF -
You play your super raw 17th pick (the one that won’t be ready for 2-years)
But what you get instead, is a bunch of guys running around, playing hard, but not knowing where they’re supposed to be – giving up dunk after dunk, open shot after open shot, layup after layup – Not setting proper picks… not boxing out…. messing up the offensive plays….. and then we complain when they get blown out….
He's "delightfully cranky"
by Rook6980 on Dec 9, 2010 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think you're pointing out
that the Wizards have very few fungible assets.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
It Depends
Let’s take Blatche for example. The kid has a history of not putting in consistent effort since his rookie season. We all had high hopes after the end of last season that he had finally put it all together, but now he has regressed back to form. Now I’m hearing it could be his foot and his conditioning, but frankly, I’m tired of making excuses for the guy. He obviously can’t give full effort on a consistent basis on this team, so let’s expedite his leaving. You say nobody would want him? I find that somewhat hard to believe. We may not get back a potential stud, but I’m sure if Ernie tried he could get something back. The problem is not that Blatche is untradable. I think the problem is that Ernie doesn’t want to try. He has the green light from Ted to build this team through the draft and young players, and that’s all the excuse Ernie needs to keep resigning the guy and giving him chance after chance after chance after chance. I’m convinced that the only way Blatche will get it together at this point is if he has a change of scenery, especially if he lands on a team that doesn’t put any expectations on him. I’m simply tired of waiting on that from him here.
Yi was a mistake from the beginning. I completely agree with what Prada said at the time. All this talk from Ernie about getting tougher, and then he fills a roster spot with one of the softest creampuffs in the NBA. Luckily, he has a qualifying offer for next season, so he is as good as an expiring contract. Sometime ought to be willing to take him off our hands for some salary relief, I’m guessing. I really don’t care what we get back. I just want him off the team.
Javale McGee has a lot of talent, but doesn’t have the head to be a dominant NBA center, in my opinion. That doesn’t mean that there won’t be a lot of GMs out there who would disagree. Not only do I think he is tradable, but I think he could possibly net us a good piece back. He has so much potential, I have to think that a David Kahn-type GM might take a shot on him, thinking they can teach him how to play defense. Maybe a disciplinarian coach will do the trick? Yeah, that’s the ticket, Kahn-wannabe! In the end, if he’s gone, the team defense will get better by subtraction.
So then you say:
Perhaps that’s why Flip is starting guys like Seraphin, Booker and Gee…. but the problem is that those guys are not ready to play…. so then what?
You play Hinrich 35 minutes a game – not because he’s good, but because he plays hard…
You play Armstrong, one of the worst Centers in the league – because he gives effort…
You bench your young rising 7-foot uber-athletic Center for making mistakes…
You put in a D-Leaguer as your starting SF -
You play your super raw 17th pick (the one that won’t be ready for 2-years)
But what you get instead, is a bunch of guys running around, playing hard, but not knowing where they’re supposed to be – giving up dunk after dunk, open shot after open shot, layup after layup – Not setting proper picks… not boxing out…. messing up the offensive plays….. and then we complain when they get blown out….
Rook, during the 2nd half of last season, you could argue that we had even less talent on the team that we do now, but even then we didn’t get blown out night after night. We lost a ton, but most of the games were actually very close. The difference in my mind was the effort and hustle. What do you attribute it to?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
The difference in my mind was the effort and hustle. What do you attribute it to?
Inexperience… Players not knowing where they are supposed to be…. inconsistent line ups. … and a variety of reasons… Blaming it on “lack of energy” is just too simplistic. If you really believe that Blatche is just lazy, and Flip just keeps playing him anyway- then you and I will just have to disagree.
If you really believe there’s a trade partner out there that wants Yi Jianlian – and is willing to trade us a useful player in return – then who? Which team? Give me your trade scenario… You can do better than Ernie Grunfeld… Give me your opinion on what Yi is worth.
Same for Blatche, McGee Young,etc… You think they can be traded? Fine……….. Tell me how. Give me specific trade scenarios….
I don’t believe there is a GM out there that wants Yi – at any price… I don’t believe there’s a GM out there that wants McGee or Blatche – unless they can steal them from us for nothing.
but if you’re so sure the Wizards have been just sitting on their hands – and should have been trading those worthless “lazy” players for hard working, productive and efficient players, then show me how…
This site might be useful:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
He's "delightfully cranky"
Believe me - I get your overall point...
You don’t want to wait 2-3 years for a rebuild. You think rebuilding is the wrong approach – and that the Wizards should have re-loaded instead. You would rather watch a team of veterans, that know how to play basketball, than a bunch of kids that don’t. You would rather watch a team full of “energy” guys, than a team full of talented but inconsistent (your word = lazy) players. I get it.
I disagree with your approach. I think the Wizards have been re-loading for the past 25 years; and it’s time to try something different.
Unfortunately for you – Ted Leonsis has said he’s going to rebuild. A long, and potentially slow process.
So – while you can rant about it…. unless you want to become a Miami fan, there’s not much else you can do.
He's "delightfully cranky"
by Rook6980 on Dec 10, 2010 9:29 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I honestly think
That this years team is very similar to the one we had at the end of last year, only we are younger and making more mistakes. While we had Singelton and Howard(for a while) and other guys who were gritty and hustle, they lacked any overall talent to translate hustle into wins. We have something similar this year in that we have hustle guys, who may actually have a little more talent, but we are too young to know how to win. The passion guys are too young to log heavy minutes, the talent guys don’t seem to be giving maximum effort. If we could pull a Frankenstein and fuse Booker and Blatche together, that would be great.
Exactly
You take last year’s team, that included Singleton, Mike Miller, Randy Foye, Shaun Livingston, etc…
and replace them with John Wall, Kevin Seraphin, Trevor Booker, Alonzo Gee, – and then PLAY them…..
Big difference in experience level.
He's "delightfully cranky"
yeah and this is where cuppett is kinda presenting a false choice in my mind
the vets we had last year (that rook lists above) are the kind of vets we would be able to acquire right now (well, except miller, he’s too good). it may have been more “watchable” (although MANY would disagree, as we were breaking franchise records for suckitude), but there is no future or promise or potential that those guys will get better. that’s the tradeoff. i think 95% of us would take what we’ve got now without a second thought.
even after the trades last year, after the first 5 games – once teams scouted us out and we came down off our sugar high – i think cuppett cooled off on how great the effort and the team was.
while i appreciate the 8000 words by several different people devoted to convincing cuppett otherwise, it ain’t gonna happen.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 10, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
furthermore
i think ted would make the tradeoff 1000 times out of 1000 to lose someone like cuppett as a fan for a year or two if it means gaining thousands of fans down the line when the team is substantively good.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 10, 2010 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
I Hope the Team is Good in a Couple of Seasons
But what if the team were even better in a couple of seasons without having to play shitty in the meantime to get there? My argument is that teams that develop young stars along with veteran talent not only don’t suck as bad during their down seasons, but end up better after they’ve retooled.
And do you honestly think that there very few fans who wouldn’t go see a game if they knew that the team was probably going to get blown out? Do you not think that there won’t be a lot of fans that lose interest during a long rebuilding process? Of course Ted would be willing to settle for many nights of a half-empty Verizon Center if he thought that the team would be better down the road, but I just don’t think that’s the way it works in the NBA. It works in hockey, it works in baseball, and it works in football. But in basketball, teams that rely exclusively on building through the draft have yet to prove that they can win a championship, or even advance very far into the playoffs. Those are the facts.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
We'd all like to be good all the time.
Can you explain to me what you’d suggest? I just don’t get it. Aside from getting Kobe or Duncan from their first day, I don’t see that happening these days.
I think a lot of people would say signing Singleton for example would cost too much and limit our flexibility in the future.
Can you tell me what kind of team you’d put together with today’s players? A couple of reasonable names that you think we could afford?
by MR on Dec 10, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I Suppose You Don't Think Wall is That Good
Aside from getting Kobe or Duncan from their first day, I don’t see that happening these days.
Kobe and Duncan got to develop on veteran teams. Not everybody on those teams were superstars, just solid players (mostly vets) who knew how to play basketball. You want names of solid vets from around the league that we should have pursued in the offseason, or should pursue now? What’s the point? Everybody has already ruled that out and decided that it’s not even worth it to consider. If it’s not all young players all the time, then it’s not the best way.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
that team you are so enamored with from last year
here’s a sampling of some losses from the second half of last year:
Apr 7 @ ORL L 94-121
Mar 27 UTH L 87-103
Mar 26 @ CHA L 96-107
Mar 15 @ UTH L 89-112
Mar 13 ORL L 95-109
Mar 12 @ DET L 87-101
Mar 5 MIL L 74-102
Mar 3 @ MIL L 87-100
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 10, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Come On
Some of those games weren’t even blowouts. An 11 point loss to Charlotte? That classifies as a blowout to you? Others were blowouts because the other team pulled away in the 4th quarter, but were very competitive up until then. Still others were games where we gave good effort but were outplayed by a lot (the 2nd Milwaukee game being a good example).
I really don’t want to argue with you anymore, but I couldn’t let that attempt to compare last season’s team effort overall with our current team go unchallenged. I know good effort when I see it. There were times last season when we played with poor effort, even after the trades. I understand that sometimes happens, even though I don’t like it. But once every 3 games? Against shitty teams like Sacramento? Are you honestly going to say that’s to be expected?
Whatever, you don’t have to answer that. What’s the point?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
november of this year
we lost 4 games by double digits
march of last year we lost 7. that’s why i put a game like charlotte in there, fwiw.
i’ll concede that this recent stretch has been particularly bad and if it continues unabated i might reach your level of frustration.
There were times last season when we played with poor effort, even after the trades. I understand that sometimes happens, even though I don’t like it.
that may be the first time i’ve heard you acknowledge this. nice to hear. no one likes it by the way.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 10, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
I Use a Different Criteria for Blowouts
I classify 16 or more points as a blowout, because there are a lot of games that are close until the 4th quarter, but then the other team makes a run late to pull away. Usually those games end up with a 10-15 point margin for the winning team. I don’t like to classify those games as blowouts because for the most part they were competitive.
It’s really just shorthand, though, and the only real way to know is to either remember how the game went or look up the gameflow. For example, I went ahead and looked up the gameflow from that Charlotte game. It was pretty close througout. Charlotte started to pull away in the 3rd quarter, but then we opened the 4th quarter on a 10-0 run to close within 4 points. We were down by 5 with just over 5 minutes left in the game, before Charlotte made one last run to put us away.
Compare that to the gameflow from the Sacramento game. We were tied about 3 minutes into the 2nd quarter, then the Kings went on a 12-1 run to lead by 11. We got it back to within high single digits briefly before the Kings went on another run to go up by 14 right before the half. We never got it within single digits after that. We once trailed by as many as 30 points, if I recall. An almost completely non-competitive game against one of the worst teams in the league.
As for me mentioning that I understand poor effort games happen, I think I mentioned it before in another thread. I used the analogy of other professionals, like say a plumber. Is it true that sometimes a plumber might cut a few corners to get a job done on some occasions, maybe because he is tired, or wants to get home sooner so he can go out with his wife, or whatever? Sure, I get that. But if it’s my sink, and I find out about it, I’m still going to be upset. In other words, just because it does happen, doesn’t mean that it should happen, or that the customer should expect it to happen to him. And if a plumber cut corners on 1 out of every 3 jobs he works, then he probably won’t be in business very long.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
the other march stat that i forgot to cite
was that we lost 16 games in a row. if we hadn’t won a game on march 31st, we would have gone 0-for the month. i’m not sure that’s the best set of players to have to teach john wall and the other rookies good habits.
the problem i have with the plumber analogy is plumbers don’t have people trying to impede their work while they try to fix your sink. heck, if a plumber did a shoddy job for me ONCE, i’d fire him. but plumbers don’t have to dig into an emotional well to compete at the highest level against the best players in the world for 82 games.
but again, i don’t want to completely disagree with you, because this stretch of games has been particularly bad of late. if they keep dropping every 3rd game like this i probably won’t watch the whole season, which is disappointing. but i’m not certain that will happen.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 10, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, a Few More Statements
I don’t want to argue anymore, but I do want to make a few more statements. The 16 games you pointed to are a perfect example of how it is not just about winning for me. It isn’t. I understood that our talent level wouldn’t be that high coming into the season. When I predicted that we would win 41 or so games, it wasn’t because I thought we would have enough talent to be average, but that I thought a below average team that works hard and gives good effort most nights could overachieve and get average results.
Looking at that squad last season gave me this hope. The 16 games in a row hurt, but I still liked watching those guys compete. They laid a stinker here and there, but for the most part they played their hearts out and gave everything they had. That 16 game losing streak contained those double digit losses you mentioned, but it also contained a heart-breaking 3 point loss against the Celtics in Boston Garden. The same Celtics that would later that season push the Lakers to 7 games in the NBA finals. It also included an 8 point loss to the Rockets, a 6 point loss to the Hawks, a 2 point loss to the Trail Blazers, a 7 point loss to the Lakers, a 9 point loss to the Bobcats in overtime, and a 4 point loss to Rockets again before finally breaking through with a win on the 31st. More often than not, they gave full effort, and I for one appreciated it. I honestly thought that with a more talented squad playing just as hard, 41 wins were within reach.
As for the plumber analogy, I still think it holds. No, there is nobody trying to stop the plumber from doing a good job, but he still has a choice of whether he is going to attempt to do his job to the best of his ability or not for whatever reason. All I ask out of this team is maximum effort. Wins would be nice, but I really just want to see guys giving their all. Just like any parent would tell his child, “do the best that you can.” I did that when I played sports, even though I wasn’t that good. Is it too much to ask that out of men getting paid hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars to do? Don’t answer that, it’s just a rhetorical question.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
I believe the concept is to establish the top of your talent arc with young, cheap labor
You pick up potential pieces along the way and if they work out, great. If they don’t, it’s been no great loss. At some point (which we are not close to) you have a suitable core in place and you can either fill in around that (OKC) or you can throw money at the player you think might just be the final important piece (Chicago). Either way, spending the money now, just because some fans can’t be bothered to sit through some shitty “basketball”, seems short-sighted and reactionary.
We are Just Talking Back and Forth at This Point
It’s like you haven’t read my posts, but only skimmed them. You guys win. I give up.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
You Say I'm Creating a False Choice
But then you present one. Either we play an all-veteran team that plays hard and makes games watchable but never gets better, or we play an all-youth team that gets blown out every other game and looks like a JV team out there while doing it. Yet I’ve listed at least a half-dozen teams that have been able to both develop young stars and still play veteran talent. This enables those teams to give their fans a decent product while they reload, develop their young players faster, and be back into contention much quicker.
We could have done that this season. Had we kept Singleton, Livingston, and signed a better vets than Armstrong and Yi, it’s not like we wouldn’t still be developing Wall, Booker, Seraphin, and Gee. We might play them a little less, perhaps, but I would argue that they would develop more quickly because they would have more skilled players to play with and learn from. Plus I strongly believe that winning and success is contagious. Young players that have the benefit to learn on good teams often become much better than young players on bad teams. In the NBA, talent is everywhere, and often what separates the good players from the bad is confidence. Michael Beasley attributes his recent success in Minnesota to a conversation he had with Jonny Flynn, who reminded Beasley how good he once was in the AAU and in college. Thinking about that gave Beasley confidence, and confidence is how Beasely has been able to produce more results in Minny than he was able to in Miami.
But confidence can be shattered by getting your butt kicked every other night. Spirits can be broken. Good players can lose their confidence. And youth development, I would argue, can be stunted. My argument is not to only play veterans, despite how many times posters here try to pin that on me. I only want enough veterans that we can play respectable. I don’t think it helps to have a completely young team. It’s asking to much out of Flip and the coaching staff to have to teach every damn player on the team how to play basketball. A good mix is what I think is needed. That’s what the elite teams do. Why can’t we?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
Singleton and Livingston let of their own volition
I would have loved to keep both. They chose to go.
Singleton Left
Because we would only offer him the vet minimum. We should have paid him more to stay.
As for Livingston, he ended up signing for $3.5 million for 3 seasons, which was probably a bit too much. So I’ll concede that letting him go was probably for the best in that case.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
"They gave me a chance to play because of my talent and work ethic, and not sit behind a name. I'm going back overseas to play basketball because of my passion, not the pay or the fame. Overseas, they allow players to play, grow and mature."
Does money override the desire to start and log 30+ minutes (I’m assuming)? Maybe. But money isn’t his argument for leaving. At least not the way I’m reading it.
Here is What I Read
But Singleton said the Wizards were like several NBA teams that expressed interest in signing him to the league minimum. He wouldn’t give the terms of the deal but hinted that his contract in China was much more lucrative.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
Which I Interpreted as Him Being Diplomatic
How would it look if he said, “I’m going to China because the Wizards low-balled me, man!” So instead he gives platitudes about getting a chance to show off his work ethic, etc. A classy move, but I doubt that he would have refused an equal or higher offer to stay in the NBA.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
You can read into it whatever you want
But since I don’t know the guy, I’m taking the man at his word.
we're gonna have hinrich, howard, and arenas in our lineup
i’m not happy with our play right now either, but i think it’s wishful thinking to say we could add james singleton to this team and we’d be giving max effort every night or we wouldn’t get blown out occasionally. who else was available? you’re on an island if you wanted to trade mcgee before this season for a veteran presence. i’d be happy if we’d moved blatche but i don’t think we’d have a .500 record right now if we did.
other than that, it’s pretty much pointless to continue to argue with you. after every bad game we have i fully expect you to be on here ranting.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 10, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
It's OK
We don’t have to argue any more. I’m done now.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
The teams you mentioned
Were already stocked with talent from multiple runs at the playoffs in the years preceding when they got their young guys. I’m only talking specifically about the Lakers and the Spurs. They had been good for years before hand and still had the foundation for good teams. The Wizards, on the other hand, have been terrible for decades. We can’t build like the elite teams because we aren’t an elite team. We’re really still searching for our foundation, something those other teams hand as soon as Duncan and Kobe arrived. Would Wall be struggling this much playing with someone of Shaq or Duncan’s ability?
i don't think we're assembled that bad for a rebuild
i look forward to getting howard back. then we’ll have him and hinrich in our rotation. those guys are competitors. wall is ready to compete. we’re in good shape there. hopefully arenas figures out the 2 spot.
our front court sucks right now. i don’t think there is a quick fix. hopefully that will improve over time. there will be some bad games here and there until then. it might get ugly at times, particularly if we’re not shooting well and the other team is. oh well.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 9, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
I believe
Hi, I’m João from Portugal. Here the Basketball is not a big sport so I watch NBA.
I’m a Wizards fan, here the hours are different and the games are on dawn but I stay up all night just to see them play. The results are not been good but I believe in this team anyway I will keep follow them even if they loose all games.
Cheers from Portugal.
p.s-Sorry for my bad english. Great site!
Listen Here Flip -- I have a question for you
If we are rebuilding then fine. Tell me, why until recently were we playing guys like Hilton Armstrong ahead of Booker and Serephin?
I know you want to win, Flip. But seriously… Armstrong and Yi and not the future of this team. Booker and Serephin might be. At least play em, even if they fall on their faces for awhile.
I think Ted would agree.
You can't just send them out there with no tools, no skills, no preperation.
They’ve got to the basic offense, defense, the NBA game. You can’t just throw guys to the wolves. Seraphin in particular isn’t even familiar with the kind of game that’s played in the NBA, since he’s been playing international ball his whole life. I don’t think it helps to throw them out just so they can fail. They have to learn from somebody.
Booker’s been getting time since the 15th game of the season or so, Seraphin is now getting a good look and it’s only the 20th game.
20 damn games into a rebuild project. This post should have been called “everybody quit whining so much” and I agree with it 100%.
by MR on Dec 9, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good point
You can’t just send them out there with no tools, no skills, no preperation.
Otherwise, you will get dunk after dunk, missed assignment after missed assignment, and the team getting blown out every game….
Hey…………….wait a minute…….
He's "delightfully cranky"
Lol
and that was with our A-team
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Dec 10, 2010 2:21 AM EST up reply actions
Because Hilton attempts to box out
and you need someone to do that in practice?
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
Bit tired
of people hating on Hilton. He may not by very good but he does give effort and he has sound fundamentals and works diligently at his game. He may be a below average center, but he brings all the things to the table that we want our other big men to emulate. He should play for no other reason than to show the young guys that working on the right things can make a difference if the coach has any confidence in you.
Yeah, I've come around on Hilton
Which I never would have thought possible. The only problem is I feel like I’m talking about my son’s soccer team. “He cares and he just tries so hard”… That’s not exactly a ringing endorsement.
He makes peanuts (relatively), is on a one year contract, isn’t taking time away from any developing player who is ready to play, seems to be a good locker room influence, makes pretty good decisions on the court…
I agree
We could do worse at his position. I just think he comes off the bench too soon, on average.
my 2 cents -
i agree with rook and others about this being early in the process, and all of these rational things.
but watching teams score at will against the wiz in the paint, with not even a hard frustration foul in retaliation, is incredibly tough to stomach night after night.
"hindsight is 50-50" - Steve Spurrier
by little stevie colter on Dec 9, 2010 5:06 PM EST reply actions
It seems to me I read something on the Wizards Insider blog
Where someone had emailed Leonsis right before the Lakers’ game asking him to start Arenas. Before the game Leonsis emailed him back saying, “He’s starting”.
The reason I mention this incident is that it’s really odd for any owner, even Cuban, to tip the starting line-up before a game. It implies that not only is the owner intensely involved (even like Steinbrenner, way over-involved), it also sounds like maybe Leonsis himself has been advocating this move. If so, did he also bring pressure on Saunders to start Seraphin and Booker in the next game? Was it Grunfeld? Because starting them was a strange move, to say the least. You could almost argue that in this battle of future lottery ball teams, the Wizards were angling to drop even lower in the standings…
Something’s going on in Wizards’ management right now. A couple of commenters here said that in a previous thread—and I’m starting to agree. I can’t guess what it is, but it feels like last season just before the big blow-up. Lots of moves aren’t making sense.
JaVale McGee is the worst player in the NBA
JaVale McGee is the worst player in the NBA to share the offensive end of the court with. The only thing he can do at the offensive end is grab offensive rebounds. But that doesn’t make any of his teammates better. Those boards and putbacks just pad his own stats. His teammates are basically stuck playing 4-on-5.
Even guys like Ben Wallace, Kendrick Perkins, and Reggie Evans are better teammates at the offensive end. At least those guys set good picks.
Even DeShawn Stevenson last year with his microscopic TS% was a better teammate at the offensive end. At least you didn’t end up with 7-footers from the other team running loose around the basket.
Is it really a surprise that our players, especially the ones that pride themselves on their offense, are getting frustrated and starting to mail it in? Especially the guys who like to get points in the paint like Gil and Dray?
(I stand corrected. There are potentially worse teammates at the offensive end in the NBA. But no coach would be crazy enough to actually start a completely raw rookie, right? Oh, wait….)
Reggie Evans is a great teammate on the offensive end
You have to love bone crushing picks. The same goes for the other two that you mentioned.
I’m not sure what you point is, that JaVale is a poor offensive initiator? That might be the reason why Flip doesn’t design plays for him.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
That's a little much
But you raise really good points here. If you didn’t have that headline, I’d rec this. Hopefully, he improves his screen setting.
Brain dump
I think the reasons you described is why the team is worse offensively per 100 possessions with JaVale on the floor. Defensively, though, they’re much better, so it’s hard to argue your point.
Defensively they're better with JaVale
Until Dray starts getting frustrated at the offensive end and allows that to carry over to the defensive end. Then they’re worse at both ends.
The good news is that once JaVale learns a useful offensive skill, setting picks or knocking down 15 ft jumpers or whatever, we will instantly get a lot better.
In the meantime, I would like to see lineups that allow us to avoid the problem.
Starters: Wall-Young-Hinrich-Thornton-McGee
Second unit: Arenas-Gee-Martin-Blatche-Yi
Wall can’t get too frustrated playing with McGee because they’ll be working on their pick-and-roll together. Young and Hinrich are happy to shoot from outside, so who cares if JaVale’s limitations clog up the paint. Thornton will hopefully be content to also play on the perimeter against PFs.
The second unit will all appreciate the uncluttered basket-area that Yi and Blatche’s outside shooting ability provides.
Yeah, this leaves us with a bunch of mismatches, but it will be worth it if it improves the effort level. At the very least, let’s at least try to put our players in a position to employ all of their skills and maybe even have some fun.
I prefer Booker to Thornton
But I also think now is the time to start your five best guys and have them develop chemistry.
I'd agree if Booker could knock down a J
But so far, we haven’t seen it.
There have been times that we’ve looked lost offensively without Thornton. Plus he has offensive skills that I don’t believe Booker will ever develop.
I wasn't too optimistic about Booker's offensive game after Summer League
But in the last few games he’s really harnessed his athleticism on the offensive end. He still bricks every jumper he takes, but if he’s able to keep picking up points inside, there might be hope for him yet.
From the District of Columbia, home of the hyperbolic paraboloid transitional floating zone defense.
It's really starting to become a glaring weakness
every game he just seems to glance off of people, it’s like he wants to roll to the basket before he even sees how the play is going to develop.
this is a great post! but i will say this….poor effort is a concern. rebuilding or not, you want a team that shows up most nights. it takes effort to improve. so if you dont show any efforts in games to show off what you have been working on improving…i can only surmise u really are not working too hard on improving. which is further re-inforced by the slow development of our young players who have been here for several years.
i like them. i want them to get better. but it is up to them, their dedication, and their effort to take the team to the next level. kobe bryant and the other greats did/do not take off too many games. they have a fairly consistent effort. maybe that is why the 50 win portland trailblazers cant get over the hump? (aside from the coaching drama going on!)
and as a fan…there is nothing…NOTHING that pisses us off more than a lack of effort. those tickets are not cheap! at least show up and try to give me something for my money!
by les boulez bomber on Dec 9, 2010 5:39 PM EST reply actions
Cosign, nice post Rook
@yop32
I disagree and would say that Wall and McGee are the only two players between us and last years NJ Nets. Each provide a talent that is at a premium in the NBA (elite athleticism). Thus, there is hope. Those two are your linchpins and you figure everything else based off of them. McGee has a PER of just under 20 with no offensive game to speak of and periods of cluelessness on the defensive end. If you ask me, that’s due to some serious talent. As Rook alluded to, patience is what is truly required here, along with a fair amount of foresight with a probable work stoppage next season.
Remove the complaints, and BF would lose 85% of its content
Yeah, the Wizards are rebuilding. But we’re fans of a loser team. It’s our solemn duty to whinge. The Trailblazers wouldn’t have gotten anywhere without Joe Blow in Klammath Falls bitching about Viktor Khryapa’s jumper.
by satchmore on Dec 9, 2010 8:18 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
More likely mae.jude shows up at your house and kneecaps you.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Dec 10, 2010 8:31 AM EST up reply actions
Affirmation feels so good.
From the District of Columbia, home of the hyperbolic paraboloid transitional floating zone defense.
Good post Rook
Good post and even better comments…love the debates!
Can someone please tell me who is not hustling besides Blatche?
Everyone else I see is playing pretty damn hard from what I see.
Good point. I agree
I have been quick to whine about Drays effort level. But not that of the team as a whole.
Like I have said before, it is going to be hard for a guy like Gil, or Hinrich, or any basketball player for that matter, to act into it when you are down by 20 and you know you aren’t as good as the other guys. But we won’t always be less of a team than the other guys. We just have to enjoy watching Wall tear it up in losing efforts until we are a better team.
A lot of guys lose intensity in the 4th quarter on the wrong end of a blowout. Andray has not fallen in that category, he has completely blown responsibilities throughout games, and not even pretended to be a basketball player at times.
by returnofswagger on Dec 10, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
This Goes Back to the Other Argument
Is it lack of effort, or merely cluelessness? I would argue that for some players, a stubborn refusal to learn from your mistakes and keep making them over and over and over again equates to a lack of effort. Effort to learn and improve, that is.
Take Javale McGee. Sure, the kid runs and jumps like a 2 year old on a sugar high when he’s on the court, but how many times does he leave his man when he’s not supposed to? Lose track of his man? Fail to box out anybody? As Wieters Wieners pointed out below, stupidly goaltend? I don’t care how young he still is. It’s his 3rd NBA season! Most of those things he should have learned in high school for crying out loud! Either he doesn’t care enough to improve, or he is too stupid to improve. My guess is the former. Remember these quotes from his last season?
Said Saunders, “He’s still got to get better defending his man one-on-one. He gives up position trying to block shots on his guy, and he’s got to give a little more resistance down there, and get him off his spot and be in a situation to contest shots better.” Please allow McGee to retort: “I feel like I’m still going to leave my feet sometimes because that’s what has people scared to come to the hole half the time. So if I stop doing that then there’d be more scoring. I’d rather just be one foul and I leave my feet all the time and there’s five misses than everybody score and just shoot it and not be afraid of me.”
In other words, to hell with what coach says, I’m going to do my thing! This doesn’t mean he doesn’t try, but he what he is not trying to do is learn from the coach about how to correct his mistakes. At least not enough.
As discussed below, Gilbert makes way too many careless passes a game. Careless might not be a perfect word for it. I doubt that he doesn’t care at all. But many times I think he just doesn’t care enough. It’s possible he is still hurting from his knee, or groin, or ankle, and just can’t give that extra effort and hustle because it hurts too much. But to me, it still looks like poor focus which equates to lack of effort.
You’ve conceded Blatche, so I’ll move on.
I’ll admit that Yi plays hard. He is simply a soft player with weak hands. How many times do I have to watch him bring down a rebound only to see it batted away by a player on the other team? I wish Ernie never signed him, and that Flip never plays him. But he does give effort.
So there is at least 3 guys not giving enough effort, or the right kinds of effort that I can pinpoint. But just because I can’t pinpoint the other players doesn’t mean it’s not there. Many NBA coaches agree that good team defense is mostly about effort. Yet our defense is absolutely terrible. Now, maybe it is just a weak-link syndrome where other players look bad because somebody else isn’t doing their job. That’s possible. But it’s also possible that the poor effort is contagious, and other players that normally give good effort are being affected by it.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
Totally agree
And I shot milk through my nose laughing when I saw McGee on Twitter saying he is doing instructional videos for big men.
I just had a son and Im 6’5’ and my wife is 5’11’ so Im thinking he is going to be pretty tall, but I am going to tell him “whatever you do, dont tell lessons from McGee on how to be a big man”. Don’t get me wrong he is athletic asset/freak and is fun to watch, but his fundamentals are totally clueless, and as you described, refusal to learn/adjust does qualify as a “lack of effort” to me.
I’ve never been around a player that just straight up CAN’T learn. It’s generally an unwillingness to change your game that leaves you emptyhanded.
by Wieters Wieners on Dec 10, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with most of what you are saying
There are a lot of nights when you can really read Gil and Blatche, and McGee’s (and until recently, Nick Young) body language on the court when things are not going their way defensively, which is most of the time. They start out the game looking okay, looking focused a bit, then they popped once, twice, and it’s like they go into zombie land and are just looking to get the ball back and score on the other end. Their effort level drops as soon as it looks like they may have to really lock in on anybody. Look at Amare tonight.
As far as Flip is concerned...
We’re spending a lot of money on him. He’s not a rebuilding coach. He’s an over-the-hump coach. By the time we’re ready to contend, we’ll have spent a boatload of money on the guy, while never actually utilizing his talents. With the amount of roster turnover and new faces we’ll have over the time it takes us to be a good team again (even if that happens in a reasonable amount of time), he’ll never really have a chance to install his system.
It just seems like we’re paying for the wrong type of coach. A team like ours could be giving a chance to a young up-and-comer for a lot less money. No real point in paying Flip Saunders ECF money if we’re a lottery team, imo.
The problem is
If you fire him, and bring in another coach to develop the young players – you STILL have to pay Flip.
Right now, I don’t see where Flip is doing a bad job of developing the young guys.
John Wall is tearing it up… (when he’s healthy) – and seems to have a good grasp of what Flip wants.
McGee is much better than last year (still needs tons of work, but he’s better – and LOADS better than his rookie season under EJ/Tapscott)
Young is consistent on Offense – and brings it on Defense every night. (think about how Nick was under EJ or Tapscott – and how different he is under Flip)
Booker doesn’t look clueless… not bad for a Rookie.
Seraphin looked pretty good in his only extended minutes this year against the Lakers.
Matter of fact, I’d say Flip is doing a better job this year with all the young guys, than he did last year with the veterans (Haywood, Miller, Jamison, Butler, Earl Boykins, Randy Foye and Deshawn Stevenson)
He's "delightfully cranky"
Two or three weeks ago
I could see where a lot of the Flip complaints were coming from. But guys are beginning to come around, even Seraphin and Booker. I have noticed individual improvement from pretty much everyone who has stayed healthy.
by returnofswagger on Dec 10, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Rook
I completely understand the current talent differential, and understand in this ‘rebuilding mode’ it’s going to take time and alot of patience. But should I not demand (as a guy who dropped 10 grand on season tickets) effort night in and night out. That Sacremento game was horribly pathetic. Watching a team with a putrid offense come down the court and hit 8-9 shots in a row on us was totally disgusting to me.
You dont have to be a great player to get a hand in someone’s face and give everything you got to lock it down after the opposition rattles off several buckets in a row. Thats my gripe with the current team. But I agree with your other points… we can’t expect them to get the #1 draft pick and go straight to the ’ship.
by Wieters Wieners on Dec 10, 2010 12:42 PM EST reply actions
To be honest
I see a lack of effort from Gil and Nick… Gils careless CARELESS turnovers multiple times the other night is just a complete lack of focus.
McGee plays hard but his efforts are so misdirected. And if I have to see him make one more obvious goaltends like he’s in 6th grade playing on his driveway hoop thats been lowered to 7-ft, Im going to literally club a baby seal.
I think Wall and Hinrich are playing hard for the most part. But yeah, Gil, Nick, Blatche, Yi.. I’m just not seeing a total effort. And when Nick and Gil are in the game together (which isn’t rare) I just see lazy one-on-one basketball as if its all about scoring and nothing else. This ain’t 21 boys, you gotta D up.. you gotta get after the boards, and its just not happening. We should NOT be getting decimated by Sacramento. Just because you are rebuilding doesn’t mean you need to be down 30 points to a team with 4 wins.
by Wieters Wieners on Dec 10, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
I think Gil is working hard and I see more commitment from him on D than in the past, but I agree that he’s been careless and not always focused. I don’t think NY has lacked effort.
I think both McGee (for the past 10-15 games) and Yi have been working hard. I see them both really hustling. They are both hitting up against other limitations, however. McGee just doesn’t play smart outside of his comfort zone (ie putbacks, dunks, lobs). Yi just doesn’t have the strength (or quickness?) to finish when challenged. I think he plays hard and besides trying to be McGee around the rim I think he plays smart.
That’s my take.
And although it feels like another in a long line of excuses, we were missing our best player as well as our leading scorer. Personally I think Flip made a mistake starting the rookies. I think he should have tried to get the win and made his point starting those guys another game.
I know this sounds like an asshole thing to say
But I don’t think CURRENTLY Wall is our BEST player. His plus/minus numbers are meh, and we’ve actually looked okay without him. But there’s no question he is the future and by far the most entertaining on the team.
I literally for the first time in my life shelled out 10 Gs for 4 season tickets (which was hard to do) thinking this would be an exciting team to watch if nothing else. I have been EXTREMELY disappointed in the sloppy shit ball they’ve been playing.
They had like 15 turnovers in the first half against gasp SACRAMENTO. Seriously… maybe its Flip, but thats completely inexcusable. Its the NBA… you can’t just make lollipop passes into the paint.
im gonna have a stroke.
But yeah, I can get over losing because we are overmatched. But lack of hustle and turnovers to me are completely ridiculous.
by Wieters Wieners on Dec 10, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
Youth comes with turnovers and sloppiness.
I do not relate turnovers to a lack of hustle.
And I think you will be much happier with your season tickets, by the end of the season, when these guys are coming around some more.
by returnofswagger on Dec 10, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Its a complete lack of focus
And Arenas isnt that young.
I honestly kind of just want him out of here. I agree with the sentiment that as long as he stays there will be that overshadowing culture of irresponsibility looming over this team. Last year was a total accountability trainwreck and killed EVERYONE’s morale. John Wall single-handedly can reverse that and breathe new life into this franchise but I just don’t see it truly happening with Gil still around. I love the guy and wish him the best, and still think he has a world of talent, but I would do anything to get him off this team. Is Orlando still interested.
by Wieters Wieners on Dec 10, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
Who is better than Wall currently? Please don't say Blatche.
He has better shooting percentages than Arenas across the board(FG, FT, 3P, TS), When looking at per/36 numbers to account for Wall’s additional playing time, Wall is turning the ball over less than Arenas, almost doubling him in assists, getting to the line more often and stealing the ball more often. The only thing Arenas is doing at a better rate is rebound slightly more and score slightly more(though less efficiently).
Saying Wall currently isn’t the best player on the team is one of those things that get’s said with no thought put into it whatsoever and than repeated by the peanut gallery. I don’t think it stands up to scrutiny however.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/arenagi01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/walljo01.html
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 10, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
I've thought about it a lot
and I don’t think Wall is the best player on the team right now.
Of course it all depends on your criteria for “best”.
But if I were choosing teams from among the roster to win one game today he would not be the first person I’d choose. Nor the first guard.
by MR on Dec 10, 2010 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
Who is?
If I were playing in a pick up game tomorrow and I had the entire Wizards roster to choose from, I would pick Wall first every single time. Who the else on that team really wants to win? Who else can create their own shots? Who shows a little passion and heart on defense? Their isn’t a single other person on the roster who shows all of those things together. He hasn’t played enough games to judge him by the numbers.
A pickup game plays to all John's strengths
He struggles with the stuff that can only come from experience – which is completely understandable. But I agree he is not currently the best NBA player on the team. That just doesn’t matter in any practical sense, as long as he’s being counted on to be the face of the franchise going forward and has these oodles of untapped potential still to call on.
Yeah but why?
I’m totally listening but no one gives any reasons. I get that John Wall isn’t supposed to be as good yet because he is a rookie and makes mistakes and doesn’t shoot as well. But in reality he is shooting as well as Arenas and turning the ball over less. Not to mention the fact that he is assisting at such a higher rate. I’d rather have the guy that creates way more open shots for others, and turns the ball over less as long as both are mediocre shooters. I am listening though I just don’t really buy the Arenas is a better shooter, less mistake prone line of thinking because it doesn’t seem to have any factual basis.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 11, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Lets think about the Sacramento game...
Second night of a back-to-back. I’m sure guys were physically drained to some degree.
Near victory the night before, against the Lakers, above all. Obviously an emotional drain as well.
This was a game where Trevor Booker and Kevin Seraphin started… I can not expect Gil, or anyone, to lead that frontcourt to a W against any NBA team.
And Gil has played on some good teams, so when he comes out in a situation like last night, his idea of giving his best effort is trying to carry his team offensively on a night like that. And when his shot was not falling, I can not blaming him for being discouraged.
And I would not complain for one second about how Nick has been playing.
by returnofswagger on Dec 10, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
But thats the difference between us
I dont give a shit if Arenas shoots the ball 30 times or if he only makes 1 of them. He’s a phenomenal shooter and off nights as well as ‘on-fire’ nights are going to happen, but coming down and having 6 turnovers in the first half is insanely ridiculous and just piss-poor focus.
Same with Nick Young.. he’s a great shooter, but just because he is doing what “Nick does” by putting up and connecting on a ton of shots, doesn’t mean we are getting his max effort. Effort doesn’t show up in the shooting columns. It shows up in rebounding, defense, minimizing turnovers etc…
But if you think you’re going to find EFFORT stats in the FGA-FGM column, then I don’t know what to tell you. Making/missing shots isn’t my gripe in the least, its sloppy unfocused basketball.
by Wieters Wieners on Dec 10, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
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