Wizards get lit up by Suns
by Mike Prada on Dec 5, 2010 10:26 PM EST
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PrintAnother road game, another non-competitive loss. Yayyy.
I was discussing this on Twitter, but I figured I'd throw it out here as a discussion: is this a roster construction issue or a coaching issue? We've all ragged on Flip Saunders plenty this year, but I lean toward the roster construction problem. There are too many guys on this team that do the same thing. There are too many guards who like to dribble around and make plays. There are too many guys who can score, but need shots. There are too many perimeter-oriented big men, too many guys who pop and don't roll and too many bigs who don't rebound. There aren't enough high-IQ defenders, three-point shooters, rebounders, good cutters or guys who can function without the ball.
It says something about the state of this team that we love Alonzo Gee and Cartier Martin so much. Fact of the matter is, those guys wouldn't stand out on other teams. I like them, of course, but they are, right now, borderline NBA players. But they at least display some of those missing capabilities sometimes, enough times where they look a lot better because they are so different from their teammates.
On the flip side, we are frustrated by some players' weaknesses so much that we forget their strengths. We forget that Andray Blatche has really developed his jumper and is capable of beating slower bigs off the dribble because he's weak, doesn't rebound and doesn't defend. We forget that Nick Young can really light it up because he doesn't pass, doesn't rebound and is so streaky. We forget Kirk Hinrich is such a smart player because he dribbles so much. Etc. If this team had more unique parts, we'd appreciate their strengths instead of being frustrated by their weaknesses. But because we count on them to be someone they aren't, we get frustrated by them. That, I think, is on Ernie Grunfeld and the rest of the management team.
But that's just me. Which side do you all fall on with this question?
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Roster construction problem
Maybe at midseason, We need to ship GA and AB out of here, in exchange for a classic shooting guard and power forward, who can play defense. I’m a GA fan, and want to see him display his full talent on another team.
we need to ship flip out, and get a new coach for john wall, he is the future for this team. Keep roster, but maybe, just maybe ship arenas out. It is time for him to go, cavaliers or something.
You do know that Flip is considered among the best PG developers in the NBA.
by MR on Dec 5, 2010 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
Marbury came into the league as a can’t-miss point guard and was selected no. 4 overall and Billups was the no. 3 overall pick. Am I missing something or someone?
Billups flamed out in Boston
and everyone readily gives credit to Saunders for developing him. Also, Marbury never really regained the form he had in Minnesota.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
one player can't win a championship
sure he is a good coach for one player or two or three. how about a whole team? He failed in detroit, they were a solid group. They actually won a champion chip under Larry Brown guidance, right?
by Daniel Cosiem on Dec 6, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
Roster.
We need to find a way to get Gil and Andray off the team…they both play “me-first” basketball.
But Gil is actually passing, but we pay him way too much to come off the bench.
I say we don’t fire Flip until the Blazers fire Nate McMillan.
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
We need a D. Because if you look at our games, we score relatively highly, we just can’t keep the other team from adding 20 onto what we have. Like CVC said, We need a classic Shooting Guard and Power Forward.
Editor at Baltimore Beatdown - SB Nation Baltimore Ravens Blog
by Zachary Beard on Dec 5, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Well, looks like another lottery year for us.
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
I wonder if drafting more young players is really going to help us — too much like the Clippers have always been. I would rather try to make some smart trades for a mature, tough player or two — and let Wall, JaVale, and maybe Dray represent the youth. Though I think Blatche is probably our best trade chip right now.
by Tbonebullets on Dec 5, 2010 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
Yes and no — he’s a stability player, it’s true, but he also represents a real nice expiring contract down the line. Ideally, I wouldn’t want Kirk to start. I’m talking about recruiting some wise, tough, starting players.
by Tbonebullets on Dec 5, 2010 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
Austin Rivers anybody?
Editor at Baltimore Beatdown - SB Nation Baltimore Ravens Blog
by Zachary Beard on Dec 5, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
That would be two years...
I don’t have enough patience for that.lol
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
Or we can simply clone Michael Jordan. It’s actually quite simple.
Editor at Baltimore Beatdown - SB Nation Baltimore Ravens Blog
by Zachary Beard on Dec 5, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Nate's a terrible fit for this roster
He’s the ultimate slowdown coach, and this team needs to run. I love Nate, but I don’t want him coaching this team.
Off Topic
Any news on when will Josh Howard will be coming back
Maybe he can change our SF problem
Soon, In a week or two I think.
Editor at Baltimore Beatdown - SB Nation Baltimore Ravens Blog
by Zachary Beard on Dec 5, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
If we had Charles Barkley in his prime, we could keep all of our bipolar roster and still have a damn good team. Charles Oakley or Rick Mahorn would also be pretty good, but then we’d have to ship out Blatche. I agree with Prada that Blatche is a talent, it’s just that our overall wussness makes us angry at his general wussitude.
Well Oakley, Mahorn, Rodman type would be a good antidote, but I think mostly because McGee and Blatche is a bad fit too.
Who is the current Oakley? Does anyone play like that anymore? Does any team start someone with such a narrow skill set these days? (I know he hit the open jumper. Still a narrow skill set).
by MR on Dec 5, 2010 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
Jamario Moon
Raja Bell when he was starting
Bruce Bowen when he was in the league
Maybe Biendris?
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
We’re not going to go back to the “start JaVale at the 4” talk, are we?
by Tbonebullets on Dec 5, 2010 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
What is easier, to develop an offensive game that exists further than 5 feet from the basket or to add 30 lbs of muscle?
by MR on Dec 5, 2010 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
Bell, Bowen, Biendris are all much more rounded players than Oak, Rodman, or Mahorn (maybe) were.
I haven’t seen enough of Moon to respond.
I came up with Troy Murphy above.
by MR on Dec 5, 2010 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
Troy Murphy is the antithesis of what this team needs
He’s a worse Jamison. He puts up numbers but doesn’t help you win. Always pops when he sets screens, never runs up the floor because he’d prefer to trail the break and shoot threes. He gets more uncontested rebounds than anyone in the league.
Indiana isn’t getting all that much from Collison and is still much better off for trading him.
Jamario Moon isn’t good either – he doesn’t shoot threes well and is really weak.
I though Moon stuck in the league because of his rebounding
and then fell in love with his shot?
Oh Nick Collison is a good example of a guy like Oakley. Now he is way overpaid.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
Cosign — but apparently the owner loves him. Collison would be great for us considering he plays F/C, rebounds, and plays underrated interior D.
by Tbonebullets on Dec 6, 2010 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
Collison demonstrates that some players can become really effective players (if not a star) if they work hard at it over several years. There’s hope for Blatche yet!
by Tbonebullets on Dec 6, 2010 12:50 AM EST up reply actions
Collison always did that stuff
like box out and play defense. He and Hinrich were famed for being rugged (and dirty) players at Kansas.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
All I want for Christmas is Oakley part II: rebounds on both ends, has a reliable outside shot, and most importantly will knock LeBron’s teeth out. But that’s not really too narrow a skill set, is it?
by Tbonebullets on Dec 5, 2010 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
Like Kevin Love??
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
That would be highway robbery. I think he’s too young to steal. Though, L.A. did get away with trading for Pau Gasol, somehow. Unlikely to happen again, but with Kahn ya never know…maybe around the trade deadline we offer our unprotected first…
by Tbonebullets on Dec 5, 2010 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
If there's a Kahn there's a way.
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
I've never seen Love lay a hand on anybody.
He’s a rebound machine, for sure, but he’s not exactly an intimidator.
Or...right now Brandon Bass is looking like that type of player.
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
I guess my point is
that if we had Oakley in his prime he might not be as good a player as he was back then. He wasn’t exactly athletic. Not sure his defense would hold up as well, and while he could hit the open 18 footer he had no other offense to speak of.
I may be wrong about this whole thing.
by MR on Dec 5, 2010 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
I think this is really the issue
The game is more wide-open than when Oakley played. It used to be much more of a game for big men and now point guards are so important. I think someone like Battier is the new Oakley — not because he’s a bruiser because he’s not, but because he’s smart enough and agile enough to get into position. We really need a big man who can take a charge, be in position to rebound, or make an assist. Someone who can do all the little things rather than just one big thing well.
by Elvin_is_my_Elvis on Dec 6, 2010 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
Oak would have found a way to be effective
Very, very smart player who was always aware of the situation. Watch some old games, and you’ll see that Oak was always the first to react to anything. He wasn’t fast, but he was always the first to start moving, and he always moved in the right direction. He was slow and couldn’t jump over a D-cell battery, but even though he used to spot up 20 feet away from the basket, he still managed to be one of the best offensive rebounders in the game.
JASON MAXIELL (sp) of the Pistons
I’ve always liked his game. Tough PF, with long arms, 260 pounds. Strong. We need a player like him
Maxiel fits. And of course Big Ben.
I think Seraphin and Booker are meant to be that kind of player. They take a while to develop, though.
by MR on Dec 5, 2010 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
I meant GOOD players. But I see where you’re heading: this team has had the same demonic infection for decades. I remember when we started Charles friggin’ Jones at center, for years, merely because he could play defense and nothing else. And then we had a guy named Ben Wallace, who could do more: he could defend AND rebound…and we traded him! And then we had a guy who could do almost everything, named Chris Webber, and we traded HIM…because he smoked a little weed! I kid you not, young ones, I kid you not….
by Tbonebullets on Dec 6, 2010 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
I loved Mike Ruffin
I use it more to illustrate a point. We need more players who know their roles, and just do one or two things well. I don’t need 8 PFs with pretty jump shots who sometimes defend and play average man defense. I need one PF who does that, and a tree who sets picks backing him up. (Which clears more room for open jumpshots ect ect.)
The funny part is that having guys like that and focusing them on one or two things has proven successful this year with Nick Young. The problem is that the offense has never needed a major upgrade, its ALWAYS been about the defense.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
I tend to agree with you, but the two things I want our players to do well fall into the categories of “offense” and “defense” both. I’m sick of role players given the history of this team. I mean, ONE role player you expect, but why is a well-rounded player at just about every position too much to ask???
by Tbonebullets on Dec 6, 2010 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
Because this team in recent years has been all about touches
I’m not saying that we need someone as limited as Ruffin, but I would like someone like Udonis Haslem who likes to go out and get boards and doesn’t need touches. Or maybe DaJuan Blair.
I think a good example of a formula that worked last year that is failing now is Milwaukee. You had three guys who got touches, and a bunch of dudes who gave fouls and played defense. They have now added Corey Maggette who needs a crazy amount of possessions to be effective, and its boned everything. Or it could just be Scott Skiles.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
Maggette's been fine
Drew Gooden was the dumb addition.
Also, Jennings hasn’t stepped forward and Bogut is hurt. Give it time. They’ll pick it up.
I disagree about Maggette
I think he enhances their issues as a team that can only run iso.
But they better pick it up, I expected big things from them.
They also have a great example of an Oakley in Brockman.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
The Bucks run simple stuff
Did last year, do this year. Maggette changes none of that. They had a desperate need to add someone who could get to the free-throw line because they were historically awful at that last year. Maggette does that. He’s just not finishing around the rim this year – that’ll change.
The big problem is that Drew Gooden thinks he’s a primary scorer and steals shots from their starters. Maggette’s just doing the job they need from him.
So would you rather Flip run Skiles playbook?
I would. It would seem to benefit our current crop more.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
No
Because Skiles’ teams are always terrible offensively on the whole.
Skiles’ defensive playbook, on the other hand.
The more I think about it
The more we might be boned on the trade front. Are most tradeable asset (Blatche) isn’t desired by the teams deep enough to return something decent.
I thought about Landry, but SAC has Cousins
I thought about Houston, but they have Scola.
I’m just not seeing a team that is a viable trading partner for the Wizards outside of the Orlando Gil trade.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
I don't think anyone in the league needs a PF
that could give us a return of any value.
Yikes.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
He's undersized and is always out of position defensively
He also stopped rebounding this year and has a bloated contract. Pass.
Meant for me I assume?
I don’t think you should ever overpay energy guys.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
This Raven's game is making me sick right now
I can’t help but feel we are going to collapse.
Editor at Baltimore Beatdown - SB Nation Baltimore Ravens Blog
I had to come here to get away from the game for a little.
Editor at Baltimore Beatdown - SB Nation Baltimore Ravens Blog
by Zachary Beard on Dec 6, 2010 6:34 AM EST up reply actions
If we really want a young true SG, we need to take a look at Jordan Crawford from the Hawks.
The kid lights it up whenever they play him.
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
Jordan?
Good luck. How exactly do you propose to get him?
by MR on Dec 5, 2010 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
Al Thornton.
While they give us Jordan, Trade Exception from J.CHildress, and 2nd round.
TNT should've treated Lebron's return to Cleveland game like 2k11 and cut the game off after the Cavs were down by 30. lol
roster construction vs coaching
Aren’t both a little damning considering the two guys in charge aren’t Ted’s guys?
President of the Chris Whitney fan-club
by Natepyatt on Dec 5, 2010 11:37 PM EST via mobile reply actions
McPhee is still around
and the last Caps coach was only punted after a truly horrid performance. Ted is loyal to an insane degree.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
good point
President of the Chris Whitney fan-club
by Natepyatt on Dec 5, 2010 11:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
its roster
ernie has built a team of players who dont typically “do” what their position in the conventional sense should. WE’ve been like this for a while.
for a while we had a pg in Gil who didnt pass and couldnt play d. its like fitting a square peg into a round hole.
We have bigs that dont rebound, a 4 that doesnt play down low. 2 or three pgs on the floor at the same time without a pure 2. No three that can shoot from the outside. Its like trying to hand the ball off to a 300lb lineman and expect him to run away from the D. yo uwouldnt do it.
Basketball has been around forever. the positions and what is expected of a player playing that position have been developed and are pretty standard, and for a good reason. The washington wizards should stop trying to build a team ignoring the history of the sport.
Many competitive teams have one player or maybe two who starts and has an exceptional skill set, and by that i mean one who can perform a task on court that a player of his position typically cant do. That is what creates matchup issues. Dirk is a great example, with his outside shooting. Gasol of the lakers with his passing.
However the thing, the expected thing, is that those players can still perform the “expected” tasks of their position to at least at a mediorce level. if they can’t then you decide if what they are bringing to the table is worth having to shift what you need out of another position.
That is why the wizards have consistantly tried to find a 3 that can defend and rebound exceptionally well for his position. B/c the 4 on this team for several years have not had the ability to perform those tasks on a level par with most other nba fours.
if we could do an experiment and trade for example, blatche and mcguire (from last years team) in exchange for a 3 that scores like blatche and a 4 that can guard other people of his position and rebound consistantly, I would bet our team would be markedly more competitive.
I understand that is what you look for when drafting players, a potential matchup problem skill set. however the problem is that the players we have drafted recently have not been able to pick up the parts of their position that is needed for them to posess without our coach needed to sacrifice another position to make up for it.
its much easier to find a 3 that can score and a four that can defend. I think we just need to start drafting players who do what thier position entails at a high level. its simple, thats what the spurs do.
by stlballa on Dec 6, 2010 12:05 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Good Post
Rec’d. Our roster is completely screwed up with guys who can’t do what’s expected out of them. I’ll add another one – a center in Javale McGee whom Flip admitted couldn’t post up because he is too young and weak.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
Two cents - Since this is my personal dead horse
Its roster construction. Grunfeld always seems to acquire players who he wants rather than those that are necessarily good for the system. This happened with Eddie Jordan and now to a lesser extent with Flip Sanders. To adequately run the Princeton, you need players with a high basketball IQ. Instead, Grunfeld kept drafting high upside/low IQ guys time and time again.
Now you have a team that is built for speed, but Saunders runs one of the slowest offenses in the league. Why not try drafting and signing guys who excel in the half court (and Saunders system), rather than take a chance on a guy because he has “raw” ability?
I still have no idea why we hired Flip. I think he is a good coach, but he is way too advanced for his own team, and besides Wall, he isn’t being given the tools with which he excels.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
In my eyes Flip is nothing more than a place holder
So to build a team around his coaching would be foolish at best.
Flip was hired to coach the big three. When that fell through he became a pay check collector.
The next coach will be more in line with the playing style of Wall and his cohorts ( hopefully minus Gilbert ).
i rarely disagree with you, but i do here
flip is our guy. we gave him a HUGE contract because of his track record. i think wiz mgmt is more inclined to think the problem was with the big 3, not with flip. based on caron, AJ, and gil’s play this year, they’d probably be right.
the jury is still out on flip. i think he deserves time with this roster and these players. i simply think our players are not that good right now (at least from a team perspective)
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 6, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
I Agree With You
And disagree with ccrun1800. Caron, AJ, and Gil have all seen their games go down the toilet this season, and you can’t blame Flip for any of them. I think Flip’s very good track record earns him the benefit of the doubt for at least this season, if not the next also.
But the jury is still out, and they are taking a long time deliberating whether or not Flip “gets” the current generation of players. The last time Flip had a team this young, it was the late 90’s; before the AAU circuit and early entrants became all the rage in the NBA. I’m still in Flip’s corner, but my patience is far from unlimited.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
I was at the game
And the thing that stood out the most to me was how bad Wall’s defense is. He doesn’t get into a defensive stance at all and cant stay in front of anyone. But when he tries on defense he’s beast so i dont get why he doesnt on every possesion. Also wats happened to his passion. He’s so passive in his attitude and just the way he plays in the last to games. Also his jumpshot has digressed alot since the beginning of the season. Now i’ve been a huge Wall fan since my sophomore year of HS(im a senior) and i know he’s going to be a beast, but wats wrong with him lately? Also Bookers dunk were monsterous, he dunks so hard, even all the suns fan were like oooooooo. And after the game i got Phil and Buck’s signature, it was tight. Phil is so nice. He asked wat my name was and shook my hand. And wen i told him i was a huge Wizards fan and watch everygame on league pass, he was like “well stick with us” haha
by FNFWizardsFan on Dec 6, 2010 12:12 AM EST via mobile reply actions
wall really struggled last night
he’s a rookie. he’ll get better.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 6, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
Flip Saunders has repeatedly shown an inability to effectively use Nick Young
He takes him out of the game when he gets 3 fouls, uses him sparingly in the 3rd, and even then, only after Phoenix has built up a lead that is well into the double digits. And when NY comes back from sitting on the bench for so long, he’s ice cold, missing almost everything. But then, why would Flip expect anything else?
Also the rosters definitely a problem
But i think they need a coach like SVG. Not in coachin style, but someone who will yell and scream at them and fire em up. When this team plays upbeat and with swag, they are really good, especially Wall. But wen they play all slow, or jus how it looks like they’re so willing to settle for dumb shots and not even try on defense, they really suck. We all know they can because when they get into it and pumped up, they also start trying on D. So we need a coach who when he calls a timeout will yell and inspire them, not make a sad droopy face and jus look disappointed
by FNFWizardsFan on Dec 6, 2010 12:30 AM EST via mobile reply actions
This team of young players showed so much more desire to win
Yi continous to prove that this team does not Blatche. Not every player needs to be uber player.Yi is so much more suitable to this team than Blatche is and with the young upcoming of Seraphin, and McGee and Seraphin and even Armstrong, the Wiz front court is a veteran away from being respectable. I love the enthusiasm of the new Wiz. I only say trade for Wade if this franchise needs someone to carry them until players develop. if the Wiz decide to use the peices that this time has now, then use them.
I think one thing that Yi has proved
which Nets posters pointed out after the trade….is that he has weak hands. I don’t doubt that he wants to grab rebounds, he just can’t because he never holds onto the ball.
The artist formerly known as ledellforlife.
I don't know the name of the super coach who coached him this year, he had very high praise for him
by hambonejackson on Dec 6, 2010 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
For 3 seaons a team that has not won more game than the Lakers win in one
neither has a team,repeats over and over again that they are putting out the best players that gives the team to win neither has a team, a chance to win, or is developing players. Develop players. If winning is so necessary, then make a play for Wade. If you do not believe that Wade is the cornerstone of miami, thats’s my opinion He is there to be had..
GILBERT
There I said it. I have always loved our Agent Zero but he is killing this team. It’s like he is the new Mike Miller. When the ball touches him all ball rotation stops and the pounding of the rock begins. Then about 5 seconds later a poorly chosen jump shot is taken. Oh yeah and his Ole defense is as good as ever.
EG is hamstrung by Gil’s salary and will need to be rid of this contract before any real roster construction can start. This team is nothing more of a mash up of players and if there are 5 guys right now that are playing with the Wizards three years from now I would be surprised.
I truly believe that once Gil leaves we will see an almost immediate change in how this team plays basketball.
Really?
Arenas had 6 assists and 0 TOs with 13 FG attempts, and according to Mike Lee, Flip was calling isos for him to get him more involved.
And if you’ve been watching the past 8-10 games, it’s obvious the team has been significantly better with Arenas on the floor.
Enough trying to find a scapegoat.
by JonathanJoseph on Dec 6, 2010 4:04 AM EST up reply actions
18 Million Dollars.
What exactly about an Arenas Iso teaches this young team how to play basketball. How can you stick up for a guy making 18 million dollars and producing 16ppg 5.3apg 3.1tpg. He doesn’t bring much in veteran leadership and when was the last time you saw him smile out on the court. There is no fight when it comes to Gil he is literally going through the motions waiting like Jamison last year to be freed from the NBA hell that is the Washington Wizards right now.
Now to Gil’s credit he has been very professional about his demotion to off-guard chucker and sometime assister. We need more than that though. We need guys who are going to fight and grit through this tough season. Gil is just not going to do this for us.
Someone find me a bookie. I am willing to lay down any amount of money that once Gil gets traded to a contender that his number will significantly improve across the board.
Umm….Gilbert is not the franchise player anymore he’s a role player doing his job. If you want him to be the man again and produce big number, then tell EG to trade Wall. You’re being unrealistic. There is difference in what he did a few years ago and what he does now. He is not being asked to do the things you’re asking him to do.
by ThePGPhenomenon on Dec 6, 2010 8:37 AM EST up reply actions
from the parts I saw
( 2nd and 3rd quarter ) The suns didn’t provide many opportunities for rebounds.
On the bright side
He did manage to fight off Javale on the two tat I saw him pull down…..
personally
I lean towards coaching. I think that if Avery Johnson were here instead of Flip, maybe things would be a little different.
Maybe I watched a different game
I thought the Wizards played a great first half. The determining story of the game was that John Wall got lit up by Nash. Part of that is due to injury, part to the fact that he is a rookie. The team defense then fell apart at times, and because the bigs were flying all over the place to cover other guys’ assignments, the rebounding was weak, but I like the way this team played the last two games.
As for roster construction, this is a rebuilding team, so of course there are roster construction issues. Sure Hinrich is a bad fit — he was a bad fit in Chicago, too — but he’s here only one year. Sure this team needs more guts and hustle, which is why Seraphin, Josh Howard and Booker were added. No one should have expected any of those three to have any impact by December 5th. Sure the Wall-Arenas pairing isn’t ideal. We all knew that. Let’s see if they can figure out how to mesh, or if Gil can be traded. Sure Yi duplicates Blatche to some extent, but having two Blatches wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world. (I’ll save my rant about the silliness of the Trade Blatche Crowd for another day.)
In short, this is the life of a rebuilding team. You see what you have, and what you need to add. As a fan, you enjoy the player development you see, and so far this year, I’m enjoying what I am seeing from Wall, Young, Blatche, Gee and McGee.
by disgrunted on Dec 6, 2010 7:46 AM EST reply actions 6 recs
I am in this camp...
but am curious to see if Hinrich is just a one-year rental. Why name him co-captain of the team on such a short-term horizon?
While it is not as monumental a line-up upheaval as what is getting sorted out in Miami, the fact is that the Wizards have also had significant roster changes, and the role changes that must necessarily accompany them. The Knicks and Raptors have turned over quite a few players, and now seem to be adjusting, perhaps the Wizards will also.
One thing for sure, this is a team that plays much, much better when it holds the score down. It’s not that they shouldn’t run, but they should do so only when real opportunities
arise.
Oh! I will be there in Staples Center for tomorrow’s Wizard-Laker game!
On a related note
Steve Nash went 8 for 8, and some of those were absolutely ridiculous, perfectly defended shots. An off-balance fallaway rainbow? Can’t ask for more.
I was pretty happy with the game, overall. The team played great in the first quarter, and pretty well in the first half. But if Nash is hitting his shot, and you start playing him to shoot, then you’re dead when he starts firing off pinpoint passes inside and outside. Even a team with a reasonably good defense (like, say, the Lakers) is going to have a real issue when the Suns get hot from the field.
So the Wizards first win on the road didn’t come against a quality Suns squad that was having an “on” night. So the Suns made some second half adjustments that let them flat-out abuse a young team lacking self-confidence. The Wizards showed some flashes. Can’t ask for much more this season.
you're enjoying what you're seeing from blatche so far this year?
although i disagree whole heartedly, i get that folks think he’ll become really good, and maybe you’ll be right… but this year he’s been bad – really bad – he’s regressed actually, and i can’t understand why you’d say you’re enjoying what you’ve been seeing from him so far. (everything else you wrote i mostly agree with)
this is probably a matter of people being predisposed to seeing what they’re going to see from blatche. but to say he’s been anything other than awful this season strikes me as being intellectually dishonest. hang on to the vision of what you think he’ll be, fine, but this season he’s taken a step backwards.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 6, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
Regressed from late last season, yeah
But compare him last night to December 2009. Definite improvement.
Dude still needs to shed some weight and commit more on defense. But he’s proved that he’s a legit PF, even if he hasn’t proved that he’s one of the better ones.
But he’s proved that he’s a legit PF
i’m not ready to go there. honestly. not on a good team anyway.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 6, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t have time to respond in full now, but wanted to get back to you.
I think Blatche HAS taken a step back from last spring, but he was out all summer with a broken foot. I know it is easy for folks (not saying you are in this group) to sit on their couches and critique players getting over injuries for not being this, that or the other, but it takes a ton of preparation for a world class athlete to prepare for his sport. Blatche spent the summer with a broken foot. Injured/not injured is not an on/off switch. It takes a long while to get back to top flight condition, often because one injury can lead to other problems, especially when you are 6’11". So I’m giving Blatche a bit of a pass so far.
What has impressed me is that he is clearly the team’s go-to scorer. I think he is more confident in that role, and his array of moves are really remarkable. He hasn’t been great, but 17 and 8 in 34 minutes for a guy coming off an injury and still learning how to be the main guy on offense? Not a bad starting point.
i guess i can see where you're coming from
but i still worry that you’re starting from the assumption that he’s going to be good, and seeing what he does in that light. don’t worry about responding in full if you don’t have the time, i’m sure it’ll come up again. your remark just caught me by surprise is all.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 6, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
oh and
saying that i’m not necessarily in that camp is entirely too magnanimous of you
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 6, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Totally agree
I was more encouraged by our first half play last night than discouraged when Phoenix pulled away in the second. Nash had a personal-record shooting night, his passes were spectacular, and PHX shot in the mid-fifties for the game.
From the District of Columbia, home of the hyperbolic paraboloid transitional floating zone defense.
Build around Gil
For the past 10 games Gil has been the best player on team by far…period. Why on earth would we want to get rid of him?
he has not
“been the best player on the team by far.” He’s been okay, but not amazing.
Why would we want to build around him? He’s only getting older, and he still has that bloated contract which reduces our financial flexibility in the rebuilding process. In short, we don’t need or want him long term.
by Marine4Life51 on Dec 6, 2010 7:55 AM EST up reply actions
Blatche
I honestly don’t recognize Blatche this year as the same guy of the past several years.
Remember when he was one of the guys who played at least average defense?
Remember when he was an excellent passer with great court vision?
Now he looks asleep on d. And every pass is a turnover.
I think his head is all messed up recently.
It's close on both sides, but I think
coaching is the biggest issue. There is no doubt that the roster could be better but Flip is not a good coach. I’m sorry you can say what you want about what he does for point guards, but as an overall coach he is awful and it showed last night. He does not take advantage of the player he does have and he creates some horrible line ups. Can we all agree that Wall is the franchise player? Well in Orlando, that team is constructed around Howard and the line ups reflect that. The Wizards don’t have all the pieces, but they do have some that aren’t being used correctly.
Instead of putting a spot up gunner next to Wall, he puts Kirk Hinrich, who commands the ball too much and presents the same issues that people said Gil would cause, which is over dribbling. If you want to take advantage of Wall, you put players that force the defense to spread. And Kirk Hinrich, at this point is not that player. Alonzo Gee is a decent player too, but he has no business starting. He is not aggressive enough offensively. I’ve seen several times where he has been open and he passed the shot up and ended up either taking a more difficult shot or passing it back out. When Wall hits a open SF, it should be a player that is going to shoot the ball. Anybody watching this team can see that Gee is just not comfortable in that role.
Then Flip cries about defense and rebounding, but yet he continually put players like Yi (even though he did okay last night), but rarely plays players like Booker, Seraphin and Thornton who are here to do that very thing. He doesn’t mix players well at all. Playing a line up of Yi, Blatche, Young, Arenas, and Wall is not a good lineup. Your interior defense is awful and they get exploited all the time defensively. He should mix his defensive player in more like Booker so that he compliments the line up out there. Yi and Blatche do not compliment each other, this should be common sense.
And finally, FIip doesn’t adjust to the game. Last night the Suns ran the same play the whole game!!! The pick and roll and Nash would just pass between the defender, SLAM! How about you double Nash so that you get the ball out of his hand Flip? Or how about you tell your defense to rotate and if they don’t sit them down? A better coach would have made the adjustment but this man is clueless!!!!
Agreed.
We all know that Flip’s lineups have been affected by injury, but he’s not making the most of what he has available to him, imho. It seems a little bizarre to start Hinrich and Gee with Wall, Blatche and McGee. By my math, there’s only one true scorer in that lineup and that is Blatche. Wall doesn’t have confidence in his shot. Neither does Gee. And Kirk is, at best, “sometimey” in terms of being willing to shoot. Why not Arenas, Young, or Martin at the two to provide a little more balance to the offense and potentially avoid a situation where you are all but assured of having an early deficit due to not having enough offense on the floor? Hinrich and Gee are not good enough on “D” to offset their offensive liabilities. If Flip insists on starting a player as offensively raw as Gee is, he needs a guy at SG who he doesn’t have to prod to shoot when he’s open.
My vote is for Young or Martin to start, with Arenas and Hinrich playing with the second unit while making sure that Wall and Arenas get minutes together to see if they can develop chemistry. If they do, move Arenas into the starting lineup because he isn’t going anywhere, anytime soon, so let’s make the most of his presence.
Balance is what this team is missing and I believe Flip hasn’t done all he could to help facilitate the team get their equilibrium.
"How about you double Nash so that you get the ball out of his hand Flip?"
How about we let our young PG and young PF try to stop the Nash/Warrick pick-and-roll over and over again and see if we can’t improve? We’re never going to be a contender until we can defend the PnR, and we’re not going to have too many chances to practice at this level, so let’s get as many reps in as we can now.
"Yi and Blatche do not compliment each other, this should be common sense."
Then this is one of the occasions where common sense is wrong.
Blatche and Yi complement each other because the combination of the two of them together gives us inside-outside mismatches. Both of them are good enough outside to abuse an interior oriented big man, and both of them are good enough inside to abuse a perimeter oriented combo forward. When Blatche and Yi are on the floor together, they can force one or both big man defenders to play outside of their comfort zone.
In contrast, JaVale, for example, is only effective when he is near the basket, so the defense can just put an interior oriented defender on JaVale and use a perimeter oriented defender to neutralize Blatche. Blatche can’t take his defender inside because JaVale is already there and there is not enough space. JaVale can’t slide outside because he’s a not a threat out there. If JaVale does step outside to make room for Blatche near the rim, Blatche ends up facing a double team.
You lost me.
My point about the defense wasn’t about how they were defending it, it was about how Flip didn’t make any adjustments. I said was saying he should make an effort to adjust and if the players aren’t showing any effort to change then take them out. I mean he does that to McGee so why not everyone else?
What you said made no sense whatsoever about Yi and Blatche. Yi and Blatche don’t play inside enough, and that’s the problem. Even though they have the skills to play inside, they like to take the ball outside and shoot jumpers. I give Blatche credit, he went to the basket last night and played probably his best game, but overall he hasn’t played like that. And the biggest problem with them isn’t even the offensive game. Defensively neither one of these guys are willing to bang consistently and get rebounds and become a presence down low. That’s where this team fails a lot of times when they are on the court together. They can get away with it a little with the Suns, but other teams have exploited them.
by ThePGPhenomenon on Dec 6, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
PnR defensive adjustments
I’m guessing that Flip wanted John and Dray to make the necessary adjustments. There’s no way for the Wiz to simulate a Nash-initiated pick-and-roll in practice, so this was a rare opportunity to get some very valuable experience.
"Yi and Blatche don’t play inside enough"
Picture Blatche with the ball, banging away in the low post. Now imagine that JaVale is our other big man on the floor. Where do you want JaVale to be?
Put JaVale close to the basket, and Blatche doesn’t have enough room to operate. With JaVale also near the rim, JaVale’s defender is right there to help stop Blatche. Blatche can’t get a high percentage shot.
Put JaVale away from the basket, and JaVale’s defender just plays off of him. Blatche still can’t get a high percentage shot. The defense gives up open looks for Javale outside, but JaVale can’t make them pay.
Replace JaVale with Yi, on the other hand, and the defense has to respect Yi’s ability to shoot from outside. Suddenly Blatche has a lot more room to operate.
Of course, if Blatche starts exploiting Warrick repeatedly, the Suns will switch Warrick out for a better post defender. But when they try that, Blatche can play his outside game and still get quality shots.
Blatche has a multitude of skills, but he needs the right types of players around him to be able to use all of those skills. The best thing for Blatche is to play with Yi.
But that might not be the best thing for the team. The team needs a power forward with enough size to defend other teams’ starting PFs. Our starting center has NBA-caliber skills outside of the immediate basket area, so our starting PF needs to play away from the basket. Basically, we need a Charles Oakley type of PF. Blatche meets those criteria better than anyone else on our team, but playing that role under-utilizes his abilities. That has to be incredibly frustrating.
Meant to say
Our starting center has no NBA-caliber skills outside of the immediate basket area
It's the players Grunfeld has brought in
We’ve got a ton of guys who take long two pointers. It looks cool, but good offenses are usually built around points in the paint, threes, and free throws, and none of our guys excel at those shots. Can we think of a single guy other than McGee and Wall who Flip has brought in who isn’t primarily a jump shooter? Pech, Jarvis Hayes, Songaila, Foye, Dray, Yi, Nick Young, heck even Javale was supposed to be a pick and pop guy when he came into the league.
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McGee
Gee
Mcguire
Seraphin
Booker
H
Howard
Caron (back then)
Oberto
Singleton
Javaris
Daniels
Ruffin
are not jump shooters
by MR on Dec 6, 2010 9:14 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah
My view of Ernie is the exact opposite, which is that he undervalues shooting as a skill. With the exception of the failed Mike Miller experiment, he has yet to bring in a guy who can reliably hit the open 15 feet and beyond jump shot. Great ball movement which leads to an open 3 pointer is worthless if the guy shooting can’t hit the shot. One reason that I’d like to see Cartier Martin get some more playing time is that he’s the one guy that I feel has a chance of nailing the open 3’s.
He undervalues three-point shooting as a skill
I agree with yoda that he overvalues long two-point shooting.
I don't think this team has a shooter outside of Martin and Young who can reliably hit anything.
One problem are the struggles Arenas has with his shot. I know Arenas will eventually start knocking them down. Wall guns 3s and eventually those will go down. I believe anyway. Martin shoots one,( two is he’s lucky) 3 a game, hits it and goobbye until next game. Hinrich can hit open 3s. This team just doesn’t run many sets for the 3. This team can’t run many sets period.
by hambonejackson on Dec 6, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
To all of the people that keep saying fire Flip
Who would you like to have as our next coach???
Because He Has No Track Record
He also only started assistant coaching last season, so his coaching experience overall is extremely limited. Even with an experienced assistant coach, the chances of a new head coach turning out to be as good as Flip are about 1 in 50.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
lit up? That’s too generous to say. the Wiz got straight NAPALMED!!!!!!!
by Jeffrey Thompson on Dec 6, 2010 1:28 PM EST reply actions
rebulding
i think we need to lay of grunfeld a little bit. Last year, despite the disappointing result of the season, the man did put together a rather impressive roster on paper that should have been able to make it to the second round at the very least. But clearly that wasn’t the case, but regardless it is not fully his fault about how they performed last year, he did his job by putting the players in place, but they did not fulfill there part of the commitment. What i am getting at is that the rebuilding mode that we are in now came up somewhat sporadically, i think we need to understand that we are only one year into rebuilding and in a few drafts from now things will be different. It is tough to be patient but i honestly trust Ernie to put a team together that will be able to compete. The roster we have now is clearly not a full over rebuilding project, no one can expect it to be, especially with only one draft under its belt. There are players on this team that were not meant to be part of a rebuilding effort (i.e gilbert arenas) but you have to take things as they come, be patient wizards fans, trust the management. they will bring us back into contention.
You Make Some Good Points
I could be talked into giving Ernie a pass last season because of the utter collapse of the Big 3. But I was really disappointed at how very little veteran talent he brought in last summer. There is no rule that says you have to tear completely down and only collect young project players to add to your team. Ernie could have given Flip the tools to be at least competitive, but I simply don’t believe he has.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
"JaVale has five highlight plays a game. Unfortunately, there's about 200 plays in a game. He's got to get more substance than style." -- Flip Saunders summing up Javale McGee perfectly
its coaching
problems last night
1. too many pick and rolls on offense Wall basically ran pick and roll went left and made Blatche and others force jumpers all game long.
Wall is so predictable as a player he goes left off the screen roll every time I mean every time. he should have alot of time just lowered his body and blown right by Nash and into the lane sans pick and roll. He has to become more of a scorer he has to be more of a penetrator. get in the lanes more.
We shoulda been posting Blatche and forcing the Suns to double team all game long. They are terrible defending the post and we let them off the Hook we shoulda even posted Mcgee and forced them to guard him.
instead iot was fire away from deep and mid range.
2. defensively we were just awful because Blatch never helped behind the initial play when Nash comes off the pick and roll you either switch the big onto him OR you trap him and have you other big pinch down the middle to stop the alley oops or pass to the roll guy and we did neither all night long.
we made Warrick look like Amare Stoudemire.
all of this is lack of preparedness from the coaching staff lack of strategic adjustments in game.
Flip never made 1 defensive adjustment all game long.
as for the players there is a roster element to all of this the Wizards have a soft team. Bigs won’t hard foul get pushed around on the block won’t take charges., guards and sf’s won’t take charges and be physical on screen roll defense won’t fight over screens.
have no real legit NBA caliber shooting guard we have 3 pg’s who play the 2 we have Nick Young who is a 2 who won’t rebound and pass we have development bigs off the bench Mcgee is a keeper but Blatche won’t defend or play physical.
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