Two things that need to go: the three-guard lineup, and the zone
by Mike Prada on Nov 26, 2010 10:53 AM EST
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PrintDon't get me wrong: there are a lot of things wrong with the way the Wizards lost to the Atlanta Hawks last night. But there are two things that seem easily correctable by a simple coaching change. On this Thanksgiving Friday, I figured I'd throw them out for discussion.
1. The three-guard lineup: I understand that Flip Saunders wants to keep Nick Young in his bench role, where he has been outstanding. I also understand that with Al Thornton out, the three best non-Young wings just so happen to be John Wall, Gilbert Arenas and Kirk Hinrich. It also didn't fare nearly as badly as I would have expected (-10 as a group in a 20-point blowout loss). But the lineup itself really doesn't make any sense. I was thinking about this for a second, and it hit me like a brick wall: if the concern with pairing Wall and Arenas is that neither guy plays well without the ball, how does adding Hinrich to that mix help? Saunders, so far, has gotten the Hinrich of 2007 rather than the Hinrich of 2009 this year. He's gotten the Hinrich that dribbles around looking to make plays rather than the one that sits in a corner and finishes plays. By the numbers, Hinrich is actually having a better season this year than last year, but it's not a good fit with two other dribble-dominant guys. So as long as Kirk is going to be that Kirk, it makes more sense to play him off the bench with lower-usage guys.
Then, you add the defensive issue caused by the trio's lack of size, and it's just not worth it to throw them out there together at the start. Honestly, I'd rather see Cartier Martin start than Kirk next game. Let Kirk come in for Gilbert and have them split time, and have Young, Alonzo Gee and Martin split the SF minutes.
Luckily, it looks like Flip is coming around on this. Via Michael Lee:
"In the three guard lineup, you should be able to beat people off the dribble and you should be able to defensively get into them and deny and we weren't able to do either one," Saunders said. "It negates the idea of playing that way."
But I can at least acknowledge that the three-guard lineup is a desperation play made because the team's two small forwards are hurt. This next one is something I can't explain.
2. The zone defense: Simply put: it needs to go. It was a good defense for Saunders in Detroit and Minnesota because he had length that could bother players and cover a lot of ground. But to borrow a Rick Pitino-ism here, Kevin Garnett and Tayshaun Prince aren't walking through that door. Going zone with an Arenas/Wall/Hinrich backcourt doesn't really make much sense.
There are several major issues with going zone with this roster, but here are a few:
- It hurts your rebounding. On their own, Andray Blatche and JaVale McGee are a subpar defensive rebounding duo (though McGee has made great strides here). Neither guy really knows how to box out well, and while McGee makes up for it with tremendous athleticism, there's a distinct lack of meat-and-potatoes play necessary to control your defensive glass. But when you go zone, it makes the problem worse. The bigs are now responsible for an area, not a man, which makes it even more difficult to box out. You're also forcing those two to step up and contest shots from the short corner and the high post, both holes in any zone defense. That leaves the basket area uncovered, and while a guard is supposed to rotate down, he has no chance boxing out guys like Al Horford and Josh Smith.
- It allows for too many uncontested shots. The idea of a zone is to cause confusion and prevent teams from running their offense, but the flip side is that the shots that can be created are often open looks. Because the Wizards lack length on the front line, they can't make those perimeter passes seem difficult. With the ability to freely move the ball around the perimeter, teams will find open shots, even if they aren't running their traditional offense.
- It makes your guards lazy: Saunders likes to say that a good zone defense actually helps your man-to-man principles because it helps you understand how to help. But the flip side is that it doesn't exactly inspire the primary defenders to do all they can to stop their man at first. Instead of forcing players into the help, like any good man defender is supposed to do, the guards are just passing the offensive players off to each other once they leave their zone. Big men aren't calling out screens, because the screen only serves to take an offensive player from one zone to another. To be a good defensive team, you can't do those things, but playing in a zone encourages all that.
- Finally, it's more information for the players to process: This is the same argument I had for why the Princeton offense had run its course. Picking up a zone defense requires practice, repetitions and, frankly, a level of on-court aptitude that I don't think most young players possess. It's the kind of thing a coach loves to have in his bag of tricks while failing to realize his players aren't robots. You can become paralyzed with too many things to remember, especially when your team is young. I'd rather Saunders keep things extremely simple on both ends of the floor and stress those fundamentals that stuff players' brains with a ton of complicated schemes. It's why Scott Brooks had so much success with the Oklahoma City Thunder last year -- they ran a simple offense and always played man, but achieved success with a laser-like focus on those two things. I wish Saunders would take a similar approach with this team and ditch the zone for a more laser-like focus on proper man-to-man defense.
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Same here
We’re already a poor rebounding team, throwing a zone into the mix just makes things worse. Plus, guys lime Thornton and young are solid man to man defenders, but they always struggle with more complicated schemes.
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by pantslessyoda1 on Nov 26, 2010 12:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ditto (for the most part)
No one can dispute that the 3-guard lineup has failed.
The Wizards’ zone has proven to be effective, though, on certain occasions. I wouldn’t portray it as an “either-or” of zone vs. man.. a team that relies solely on one or the other is doomed. But the coach has to use zone at the right time, and for the right amount of time. Flip tends to stay with it even when it’s shown no tangible benefit., or when it’s proven to be detrimental.
Off topic: Andray Blatche has had ok numbers, just looking at paper, but his game is really off this season. At first I chalked it up to conditioning and a rusty shot, but he’s been making a lot of terrible decisions, and his defense has taken several steps back. Can we please get the real Andray back?
How do you know this isn't the real Andray?
We’ve got more evidence of this being who he really is than otherwise.
I don't think this is the real Andray
It really looks like he’s playing in slow motion this season. Something is up with him. He was never a freak athlete by any means, but right now he’s moving as slow as molasses. Especially in his post moves. I think he’s still having problems with his foot and maybe his knee. He needs to be benched until he gets fully healthy.
by iNFaMOUS SwaGG on Nov 26, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
as one of the biggest blatche detractors on the board
i’ll acknowledge he’s better than what he’s showing right now. but not by as much as lots of folks believe. the lack of concentration and discipline are speaking loudly and clearly.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Nov 26, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
You are?
Blatche is not losing these games. These games are a real team effort. Hinrich has his quarters and some nights Arenas is on, but Young is playing better than any of them. If Wall his hurt then you start Arenas. Young is more of a catch and shoot guy recently.This team does not need 3 point guards on the floor so I advocate starting Yound and bringing Arenas off the bench. If he is on then great, and if he isn’t so be it. Hinrich can shoot sometimes, but I don’t think Hinrich should start. Neither did the Bulls. So you can slam Blatche all you want to, but he plays more minutes than anyone else on that team no matters how he plays and there is a reason for that.
by hambonejackson on Nov 26, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Sure there's a reason
Flip’s rotations tend to make little sense.
Well, the Bulls did start Kirk most of the season
And I don’t think Dray playing so many minutes is proof of anything other than no better options
Those minutes are likely to change
Did you notice how much time Seraphin got against the Hawks? I don’t think it was any coincidence that he left the game for good after getting poked in the eye and sitting on the court for a full defensive possession. Flip’s losing patience with 7-Day Dray.
That is silly
The Wiz were long out of the game when AB sat down.
by hambonejackson on Nov 26, 2010 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
hinrich should be the backup to wall, much like ridnour was to jennings last year and Armstrongs minutes should go to booker and seraphin
"If you don't shoot, you can't score"
Johan Cruijff
by Dutch Hoopfan on Nov 27, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
To Dutch Hoopfan
I agree 100% Armstrong is being kinda useless
Flip should bench Armstrong and use him to “train” McGee in practice.
Also Flip should be trying to develop Seraphin and Booker.
johnwallismyhomeboy
you're advocating nick young starting over arenas and hinrich?
by DarrellWalkerFan on Nov 27, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Who, me?
no, i like the idea of nick as a scorer off the bench. I do think starting hinrich next to wall is an option for a while so Gilbert can get his legs under him. When gilbert is playing well, keep him in and Kirk out. If not, play Kirk some more. When Gilbert is fully healthy and more consistant, then start him.
"If you don't shoot, you can't score"
Johan Cruijff
by Dutch Hoopfan on Nov 27, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Forget I ever advocated 3-guard LOL
I agree with the analysis…. Mostly, I think that whoever starts at the 3 should be dictated by what is needed to counter the opposing 3.
Satch, I am growing increasingly concerned that the Andray we have IS the real Andray. I am witholding judgment but at some point (health issues etc. aside) a decision will need to be made. His offense is pretty much OK in the numbers sense but, he is NOT playing the type of offense or defense expected of a real big man, which we clearly need.
Looking at our current player availabilities and needs…. Maybe Flip should consider switching Andray to the 3 and let Booker or Seraphim just bang away on the opposing 4…. Thoughts?
PS moving Andray to the 3 may be especially good...
against the Magic, who use Lewis really as a 3 or 3 1/2 and he has similar size to Andray,
Ideally, yes...
But until Andray gets into better physical shape, 3 may be the solution.
I think of it this way… (a) His numbers are certainly better than Butler’s were and he can play outside better right now than inside. (b) we need more inside action from the 4 to protect JVM better.
This team needs Yi back
Without him its Blatche unless Armstrong and McGee together. Booker can spot play the 4 so that leaves Seraphin. So, unless Blatche is the NBAs version of Randy Moss, either they have to start feeding him the ball and letting him go to the basket more so teams are forced to double team him like last year or they are going to have to play Seraphin more to get Blatche off the floor. I don’t believe Saunders would let a player loaf around the floor 40 minutes a game. I don’t even think its his conditioning. He’s hurt, but if they are going to play him then they need to do what they did last year and make him their primary scorer.
by hambonejackson on Nov 26, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
He can definitely help
I agree. Yi can help out a lot if he is in the rotation for around 20 minutes agame. Blatche can focus on his scoring and McGee can focus on his freaky highlight plays. The team would be more balanced. Now we cannot get a stop or score when we need to .
Then who's focusing on defense?
From the District of Columbia, home of the hyperbolic paraboloid transitional floating zone defense.
by mr. 91 on Nov 26, 2010 6:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Agreed
I was thinking the same thing about the zone.Although usually, the big men get lazy in a zone defense so I was surprised. (Cartier Martin,Booker,Seraphin and other bench players need more time)
Good points
but Young is the best option right now for the 3 until Howard returns. Flip sees the old baggage, but the guy has been playing well on O and D.
With Young (and others and even the 5-man units), confidence is the key to success. A coach can build or destroy a person’s confidence. Of course, it requires minutes and some successes to build confidence.
I’d like to see Flip make some fact-based decisions on rotations and stick to them.
This is supposed to be a rebuilding year
And for that reason:
- I agree that the 3 guard lineup should go away. That is not a winning strategy long-term. Play Martin, Gee, Booker, Young, Yi and Blatche at SF to see who can adapt and fit in there. I especially like the idea of a McGee, Blatche and Booker front line.
- I don’t think Flip should get rid of the zone. No winning team is going to have the zone be its primary defense, but it can be useful now and again. This year should be used to teach a lot of things, including the zone and how to rebound effectively while in it.
One thing that concerns me about the above is that I’m not convinced that Flip believes this year is a rebuilding year and an opportunity for growth for the young players. Every time the t.v. cameras pan to him during the game, it looks like his head is going to explode, he’s about to bench someone permanently, or he’s about to slit his wrists.
by disgrunted on Nov 26, 2010 12:11 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Flip would rather slit his wrists than elevate NY over Gil or KH
Which is why his head looks like it’s going to explode when NY is outperforming both of them.
Nick was the ONLY player who acquitted himself last night, a few more weeks of this and he’ll be playing more than KH or Gil
Blame Mike
The game thread says, “GO WIZARD!” instead of “GO WIZARDS!”
Apparently, everyone on the team thought that Mike was only cheering for Nick. In their depression at losing Mike’s support, the rest of the team just couldn’t get motivated.
That pretty much explains it
I’m pretty sure the Wizards are a .500 ballclub with better copy-editing.
keeping it simple and working on fundamentals
sounds good to me. this team is young.
zone is tougher in the nba bc of the defensive 3 second rule. it’s not like syracuse with their 2-3 where they can just plant their center in the lane indefinitely.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Nov 26, 2010 12:56 PM EST reply actions
The wiz bench is thin
They need to start young and bring Arenas off the bench. I don’t know about Blatches health issues, but he isn’t getting the ball nearly enough and its causing him to stand around too much. He isn’t aggressive. I’d like to see Booker at the 3. I know the Wiz want to share the ball, but they hesitate too much when they have the ball. They think about shooting it and then passing it and then shooting it. they move the ball around but without much purpose. They are getting killed in transition and it doesn’t help when the offense runs like a cheap watch. They overload on the zone and that is why shooters are open. Teams know they can switch off on the offense and the Wiz get caught in mismatches all too often. They are a tall enough team to play zone if they stick to their zone, but they are so afraid of letting Blatche and McGee stay alone down low they pull a double team with one of their other players so they leave one part of the floor wide open. if they would simply stay in their zone they wouldn’t have that problem. maybe man to man will help their zone defense. I would recommend they sit Blatche more but Yi is out and Seraphin is clearly not ready for prime time. So, until Yi is back they are stuck with Blatche. i think the Wiz have a ways to go Seraphin and Booker are rookies. Yi is out. Who knows what Howards condition will be when he returns. they are thin right now.
Agree with this write-up across the board
I HATE the 3-guard lineup. The chemistry seems off on offense and we have to many ball-handlers on the floor. We always seem stagnant. It was especially bad on defense last night. Gil guarding JJ and Kirk guarding 6’9" Marvin Williams. Complete mismatches. I would have rather started Martin, Gee, or N1 and brought Kirk off the bench. Kirk always looks good in the 3-guard lineup, but Gill and Wall don’t. It doesn’t work. Its not about ripping Kirk. Its just a bad mix. Gil & Wall will never play like they can. Kirk will because it doesn’t effect his game much. Just put him on the bench Flip.
And then there’s the zone. Zone is only effective in the NBA as a different look to disrupt a team’s offensive flow, but Flip uses it all game against a team that has Bibby, Joe Johnson, and Crawford- all really good jump shooters. Our shooting guards are already small, why compound the problem by starting a 3 guard lineup?
Wall had no business playing last night. He’s still having foot trouble and even Flip remarked about it tonight. C-Webb said he saw Wall limping significantly at the end of the 3rd quarter. And while he’s still fast, it doesn’t seem like he has the same burst that he had before the injury. I’ll be incredibly heated if Wall is playing Saturday against Orlando. Please for goodness sake, let Wall completely heal before letting him get back out there. I’m afraid our crack medical staff might be at it again.
And I’m tired of seeing Blatche hobble up and down the court playing at half speed. If he can’t go 100%, then sit him. If he isn’t injured and this is his version of 100%, then he needs to sit until he’s ready to give a better effort.
Mike, I agree completely
and I hope somebody in the Wizards organization is reading. Your best column ever, IMHO.
I have been saying that for the LONGEST TIME. Finally someone agrees. It makes the lineup small and easily overpowered and all three of them r perimeter players who r not known save for Wall, to be slasherer to draw defences in the paint.
by Jeffrey Thompson on Nov 26, 2010 2:02 PM EST reply actions
Zone D
At last an analysis that makes sense – the Zone cannot be a primary weapon of defense when your guards have no idea of participation or help. McGee covers up for so much but he cannot defend the pick and role without help and it does not work with these guys. Blatche is constantly trashed for his D but facts do no support such criticism – he plays much better D than Jamision ever did, rebounds well and scores well. It is just convenient to whip on him and ignore the perimeter defense that causes the start of no D at all.
Po' Blatche
If Blatche were the problem Saunders would call him out, but he doesn’t. Instead he gives Blatche maximum minutes. Their only real backup 4 is Seraphin. So Blatche plays no matter how much he struggles at least until Yi gets back
by hambonejackson on Nov 26, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly...
I know that Nick doesn’t really do good when he starts, but they should start him if he continues to play like this.
Yeah.
He plays better when he starts. Hes become more of a shooter and Martin doesn’t f- around with the ball. One point guard. One shooter. Not 3 point guards. Its worse than Jordens offense. I’d like to see Arenas come off the bench when Wall is healed. Wall and Young in the backcourt. One point guard one shooter.
by hambonejackson on Nov 26, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
Agree, great post and
I wonder what Flip’s response would be.
He may say, “Good analysis Mike, I agree with you, but winning games isn’t our primary objective this year.”
OR…he might say, “You’re absolutely right Mike, but we’ve had some injuries so I’m just trying to keep things as consistent as possible because Javale seems to do better when things are stable. Yes man D would be better for us, but more important is stability.”
OR…he might say, “Nick isn’t a long term solution at small forward so I don’t want to play him there. Kirk isn’t either, but he’s a vet and therefore I don’t mind yanking him from role to role. When Josh comes back Nick is going to be coming off the bench anyway so I just want to keep things consistent for him – he’s been doing great in that role.”
OR…He might say, “When I finally decide to start a player like Nick I’m committing to that player so it probably takes me longer to make that decision than a fan, but yes I agree with you and I’m leaning that way as well.”
Anyway, none of this is to say that Mike or any of us shouldn’t be proposing our ideas/suggestions for the team, but just saying, wouldn’t it be fun to know what Flip’s response would be? It’s nearly impossible to get that answer though because he wouldn’t speak freely to the media.
Go ask Assange at wikileaks
I bet he knows
by hambonejackson on Nov 26, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Hambone,
Wikileaks just posted all of Flip’s canceled BulletsForever postings. What a treasure trove. He likes Rook’s veteran savvy and has never seen a youngster like Prada post as fast as he does. Also some stuff about Iraqi civilian deaths.
by mogoman on Nov 26, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Just delightful.
and left it at that.
But seriously, I’m curious what others would think Flip’s response would be to Prada’s suggestions. Anyone? Prada?
by mogoman on Nov 26, 2010 5:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I've asked him about the zone
It was before one game, forget which. He said it was their most efficient defense in the last game.
We will see how efficient that defense is against Orlando.
by hambonejackson on Nov 26, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
To add on to this
I think it was after the first Atlanta game, when they lost by four. He was also pretty perturbed by the question, though I think it was because of how I asked i (basically, “what was going through your head when you made that call?”).
What are the Wiz covering up?
I want to know. And what about Leonosis. Whats he up to? There is something sinister about him.
thats no secret
but Leonosis offering contract extensions to any Wiz who agrees to be on call for various services he needs during the summer, is.
by hambonejackson on Nov 26, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
I agree completely
I would like to add as part of some of your points, is the rotations, either come to slow on defense or they don’t happen at all. In order to run an effective zone the rotations have to be there. Teams that move the ball well expose bad rotations on defense and get open looks by reversing the ball to the weak side. I’ve seen this happen to much this season. You have to have dedication to the defensive end like you said. It’s just not there with this group.
by ThePGPhenomenon on Nov 26, 2010 3:15 PM EST reply actions
They keep flooding the zone.
Its like they are just challenging a team to make that extra pass and they do. Go ahead and take that open jumper, but when there is a joe johnson and a crawford out there you cant leave them alone., but its the transition that is really killing them. How many dunks and 2 0n 1s did I see the Hawks have in transition. They have to do a better job of getting back on defense.
by hambonejackson on Nov 26, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
The sweet voice of reason.
The three guard has been hilarious. It’s like watching bargain basement Heat bball. Gil and Wall are anxious to show they’re both team players and go ido or dump off and stand around watching the other. Can’t wait to it go away. And considering the hyperparaboloid whatdid done, it doesn’t count as an idea if it takes longer to say than it did to think of it.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Nov 26, 2010 6:04 PM EST reply actions
looking at all the spelling errors
I really need my computer back, smart phones can suck it
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Nov 27, 2010 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed fully, some thoughts though
-I continue to NOT see what everyone else sees in Alonzo Gee. He played some minutes and didn’t make much of an impact at all. Rather than a time share, I’d rather see the much more effective (and better all around) Cartier Martin take the lion’s share of that role’s minutes.
-Wall is the #1 pick, Healthy Arenas is All star talent. That leaves Kirk on the outside. I’d love to see Cartier Martin start instead. At first I wanted to see NY start, but he is a high usage type and would be fit coming off the bench as a top option (rather than play w/ Wall, Arenas, Blatche). This way Cartier can bring his solid D and great fundamentals along with a dead-eye outside game to compliment the slashers.
-This also ensures that at least 1 ball handler (Arenas, Wall, Hinrich) will be rested well. Rather than 3 being on the same floor at once.
-Seraphin is still as raw as red meat, but he did look good and more importantly, physical in garbage time. When Blatche or any of the other big men begin to loaf, I’d like to see Flip play Seraphin (or even N’Diyae) for a few minutes.
Agreed.
Gee is better than he showed, but I want Martin. If there is garbage time, I want Seraphin IN.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Nov 27, 2010 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
Great points, i totally agree
Arenas has shown to be very inconsistent tho, maybe start hinrich next to Wall and bring Gilbert off the bench. Is he playing good? Extent his PT at the exspense of hinrich, if not then sit him.
Nick should be comming of the bench behind Martin and booker and seraphin should get Armstrongs minutes.
"If you don't shoot, you can't score"
Johan Cruijff
by Dutch Hoopfan on Nov 27, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
I like Cartier too
But Gee has more upside and you’re really going to judge the guy on his second game? He’s been in town for like a minute & a half. Plus, they can both play 2 and 3, so I don’t see it being an either/or thing.
Completely agree with everything else.
Flips gimmickie coaching is confusing everybody. He should focus on the simple things.
3 focus points
Back to basics (what happend to that anyway)
boxing out, rebounding, set sollid screens etc.
Keep it simple
Defense: Straight man to man D and easy to understand help D responsebilities
Offense: let Wall breakdown the D and make a play, or set some screens to free up a shooter or feed it to Andre in the high/low post for an iso, much like last yr
Effort
No effort/ energy? Have a seat young man.
"If you don't shoot, you can't score"
Johan Cruijff
Oh
They’re gonna lose. Oh Oh I know it they are gonna lose today I just know it and its because I’m a loser I’ve always been a loser oh my what am I gonna do Oh Oh I can’t watch howards gonna kill them and there is nothing I can do about it why do I do this to myself. Oh my. Oh my.
Looking for an exciting game tonight.
I’ll be sitting in a suite tonight compliments of the Wizards for being a season ticket holder. Me and my family & friends will be having a party tonight. I hope we have something to celebrate other than being a long-term season ticket holder.
Go Wizards!
Long-Time Wizard Fan
They won the night we got that deal...
Beat the Knicks couple of seasons ago, one of Mike James best games actually.
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