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Competition Discussion: Boston Celtics

(Previously: Atlanta).

The season is still a ways away, but most of the rosters are set, barring the requisite Michael Jordan comeback rumor (just kidding, but only a little).  We have an idea where our team stands, but we can't really know unless we discuss everyone else.  In that spirit, I'm going to throw up a "competition discussion" thread for each of the other 29 teams over the next couple months or so.  We'll go in alphabetical order from A to Z.  Today's team: Boston.  Jump to the comments to discuss the Celtics and make a prediction on their record.


Last year's record: 62-20 (Pythagorean record: 61-21)

Playoffs: beat Chicago 4-3 in first round, lost to Orlando 4-3 in second round

Offensive Rating: 110.5 (5th)

Defensive Rating: 102.3 (2nd)

Pace: 90.4 possessions/game (18th)

In: Rasheed Wallace, Marquis Daniels, Shelden Williams, Lester Hudson
Out: Leon Powe, Stephon Marbury, Mikki Moore

Projected starting lineup: Rajon Rondo, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Kendrick Perkins

Key themes:

  • With a lot of older teams, sometimes the wheels just come off.  Will that happen to this Celtics club?
  • How healthy is Kevin Garnett?  Why haven't we heard anything about his injury?
  • How much does Paul Pierce have left after two very long, grueling seasons?
  • How will Rajon Rondo respond this season after a summer of dealing with tons of trade rumors?
  • Does Rasheed Wallace have anything left to give?  Will he be the force he used to be now that he's on a real winning team?
  • Can Marquis Daniels adequately back up the wing positions so that Pierce and Ray Allen don't play too many minutes?
  • Who backs up at point guard?  Do they even need a backup point guard?
  • How will they approach the season?  Will they not be as serious about the regular season so as to preserve themselves for the playoffs? 

Star-divide

Before we get going, let me say this: rumors of Boston's aging and demise are greatly exaggerated.  Sure, if Kevin Garnett's knee keeps him out for the entire season (which won't happen), then they aren't a title contender anymore.  But even without Garnett, this is a formidable squad that went 18-7 in the regular season last year and nearly knocked out Eastern Conference champ Orlando.  They're good regardless of KG.

Keep in mind also that they posted that record without Garnett despite giving regular minutes to zeroes like Stephon Marbury, Brian Scalabrine and Mikki Moore.  Those guys' spots in the rotation have been replaced by far more productive players such as Rasheed Wallace and Marquis Daniels, both good bench guys to have around.  Point being, Boston's additions don't jump out of you as much as Orlando's or Cleveland's, but they're arguably just as impactful. 

That said ... what exactly is going on with Garnett's knee?  The Celtics have been very tight-lipped about the whole situation ever since it became a problem last year.  Nobody knew he was going to be out for the playoffs until the Celtics said just days before the beginning of their series with Chicago.  Then, this summer, there literally hasn't been a peep from the Celtics camp or from KG himself about it.  The contrast between Garnett and Gilbert Arenas, who also has a major injury concern, is startling.  Whereas all we've heard from the Wizards is that Arenas' knee is strong, we haven't heard the same stuff about KG. 

If Garnett is fully healthy, it's a huge, huge boost to the Celtics.  Huge enough for him easily to be the most important player in the NBA next year.  That said, I'm a little skeptical that he'll play all 82 games at the level he used to play.  If the Celtics get 65 games out of KG, with him playing at a high level similar to what he played at in the past, I think that has to be considered a success for them.  Those 17 games or so KG probably misses will probably affect their record a bit.

I also suspect the Celtics will take it easy a bit in the regular season to preserve their key guys for the playoffs.  Last year, Paul Pierce was gassed by the end and wasn't playing up to par.  If the Celtics end up sacrificing a few games to give him some more rest, that'll probably be worth it in the long run.  The same goes for all their other interior guys.  With so much inside depth between Garnett, Kendrick Perkins, Sheed and Big Baby Davis, I suspect many of those guys will get fewer minutes than normal.  That's the luxury the Celtics have on the interior.

That leaves only one other way for the Celtics to really be derailed this season: an injury or a lack of further development from Rajon Rondo.  The Celtics are very thin behind Rondo, and if Rondo gets hurt, they'll probably use Pierce or Marquis Daniels to bring the ball up the court, which will wear both of them out.  There still also might be issues with Rondo even if he remains healthy.  Normally, I'd believe Rondo will have a huge season next year as his game continues to grow, but you have to at least wonder how he will react to a summer where he nearly got traded, was accused of being difficult to deal with and was so openly shopped.  Will it cause him to go into a bit of a funk?  Will it stunt his further development to the point where he's only as good as he was last season?  These are fair questions.

In the end, I think the Celtics will come out on the positive end of these key questions and be a legit threat to win another title.  I'm guessing they'll finish third in the East, but only because regular-season success isn't as important to them.  If I'm Cleveland or Orlando, I'm going all out just so I can avoid the Celtics until the Eastern Conference Finals. 

Mike's Prediction: 57-25, first in the Atlantic, third in the East.

BF editor predictions chart:

Person Atlanta Boston
Mike Prada 47-35 57-25
JakeTheSnake 44-38 55-27
Truth About It 45-37 ?
Rook6980 45-37 44-38
Bwoodsxyz 45-37 56-26

0 recs  |  Comment 27 comments

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Uh oh....

Mike’s keeping track…..

The last time I made a prediction for the Eastern Conference, I didn’t do so well.

I gotta think about it a while……

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Sep 3, 2009 8:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I remember being pretty off as well

You also made your prediction before everyone got injured.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Sep 3, 2009 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mine were terrible as well

I think I had Indiana making the playoffs. I’ll start putting together my spreadsheet tomorrow.

Bullets Forever: A blog dedicated to the Washington Wizards with analysis, commentary, and more YouTube videos than your eyes can handle.

by JakeTheSnake on Sep 3, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alright the spreadsheet is done

Atlanta: 44-38, 3rd in the Southeast, 6th in East
Boston: 55-27, 1st in Atlantic, 3rd in East

Bullets Forever: A blog dedicated to the Washington Wizards with analysis, commentary, and more YouTube videos than your eyes can handle.

by JakeTheSnake on Sep 4, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah - I made my predictions early

Which is why I’m so hesitant to make predictions now….

But what the hey……. here I go.

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Sep 3, 2009 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Boston's record

OK – I’ve been vocal with my buddies, and verbose here about how I think the Boston Celtics cannot continue to skate through each year, getting older and older, without any major injuries…. (KG’s knee notwithstanding)….

I’m firmly convinced that the Wizards will end up 3rd in the East. It’s my feeling that one of the top three teams (Cleveland, Boston or Orlando) will suffer through a tough year injury wise. Do I have stats to back up my ‘feeling"? No. Do I have some obscure medical facts? No. I just know that the teams at the top of the standings had really good luck with injuries; and I’m tired of seeing the Celtics, or the Cavaliers with their top 8 guys playing in an average of 73-78 games a year.

In 2007-08, when they won the East (and eventually the Championship), Boston’s top 8 players averaged 76 games played. Last year, their top 8 averaged 72 games played – even with KG missing 25 games)… Last year, Orlando’s top 8 averaged almost 75 games played. Cleveland’s top 8 averaged 72 games played (even with Ben Wallace missing a third of the year)…. Meanwhile, the Wizard’s top 8 averaged 50.5 games played….

So how does that translate to the Wizards ending up 3rd in the East?

One of those top teams will fall prey to the injury bug this year. It may be Cleveland or Orlando, but Boston has the oldest roster; and the most mileage on their superstar players. Mike pointed out that even without KG, Boston took Orlando to 7 games – but that was with Rondo playing out of his mind to barely get past Chicago, almost averaging a triple-double for the playoffs before finally falling to Orlando in 7 games. Then, for some unknown reason the Boston General Manager shopped him around the League this off-season; and his Coach bad mouthed him, saying he was hard to coach. Garnett is known for his intense attitude; and not just on the floor, but in the Locker room as well. Now add the mercurial Rasheed Wallace to that locker room. How long do you think it will take before Sheed is complaining about not being in the starting lineup? He’s never been a “shut up and play” kind of guy.

When the season starts, Pierce will be 32, and he’s the youngster of the group. Garnett will be 33 with a bum knee. Allen is 34 and Wallace will be 35.

Kevin Garnett has played almost 40,000 minutes in NBA games. And Garnett’s minutes were played down low…. with constant pounding in the post. That’s a lot of wear and tear. (to provide some context, the Wizard’s elder statesman Antawn Jamison has played a little over 29,000 NBA minutes)

So – if I have to pick a team that will fall flat this year, it’s the Boston Celtics. 44-38 (1st in the Atlantic)

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Sep 3, 2009 9:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You went out on a limb with this one

Saying that Boston is going to go 44-38 this year is pretty bold. I don’t necessarily think they’ll dip as much as you say but it’s not that far fetched to think that they could be hit with the injury bug. Especially considering their ages.

by bigrm18 on Sep 3, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unless they really get punished, I doubt they win less than 52-54 games

Even if they are hit pretty bad. There’s a lot of top-level talent and depth on that team.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Sep 4, 2009 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bunches

Injuries often come in waves, especially with an older team. If someone gets hurt, other players play longer/harder to make up the slack. They end up getting hurt as a result, leading to other players playing more, which leads to injuries, which leads…. A team with as much mileage as Boston could really implode. Boston was lucky that KG’s injury didn’t cause that sort of chain reaction last year. In some ways, they were lucky that KG’s injury came late in the year, after they had all but locked up their playoff position. Even with KG out, Doc could still afford to limit his players’ minutes. If anyone gets hurt at the start of next season, look out.

by yop32 on Sep 4, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait a minute

Is this the record prediction thread, or the wishful thinking thread?

54 wins, 3rd in the East.

by RamV on Sep 4, 2009 6:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey , let's just remember

that I assume that at least one of the big three in the EC will be hit by the injury bug… and since I have to pick one from Cleveland, Boston and Orlando – I chose Boston….

But the Wizards will still end up 3rd in the east if LeBron gets hurt, or if Dwight Howard goes down…..

One of those three teams will suffer this year…. and strictly because of their age, I chose Boston.

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Sep 4, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And yes

I’m going out on a limb….

Anyone else want to join me?

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Sep 4, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you

Could be Z/Shaq. Could be VC. Could be a Celt. Can’t say who, but I agree. The injury baton has been passed from the Wiz to another EC team.

by MR on Sep 4, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice new logo MR

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.

by Truth About It on Sep 7, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for noticing

I may do some more work on it.

by MR on Sep 8, 2009 7:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am in complete agreement with you

I will go a step further too. I don’t think Garnett will ever be anywhere near the player he was because of this injury. I can’t see him being able to play with the same intensity that same physical force that he did before (and the Celtics are paying him $63 million the next 3 years :-) ). And like rook I see an injury for Pierce and Rondo unsettled by the attempt to trade him.

"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck

by George Templeton on Sep 6, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Numbers (with some probable bias mixed in)

If this were the wishful thinking thread, I’d put them under 50 wins (though still not as far as Rook did). They seem to have a lot of places where they could get derailed. That’s a lot of guys with a lot of miles in key roles, they’ve antagonized their (very valuable) young point guard, I still just don’t trust Doc Rivers, KG may not be healthy, etc.

But, since it is my role to do it this way and no one else has yet, I’ll go strictly by the numbers, mostly Win Shares.

Last year, as noted by Prada, they won 62 but had a pythagorean of 61. Their cumulative WS also basically works out to 61, so I’ll use that as a starting point.

Looking at their transactions (crudely just filling the minutes lost), Williams for Moore is essentially a wash, and maybe even a slight downgrade. Daniels for Marbury gains nearly a win. Sheed for Powe is actually a notable downgrade on offense (though a gain on defense), with a net loss of over 2 wins. So, that takes it down to about 60 wins.

Looking at the returning players, I’m just going to give them Garnett’s and Pierce’s production from last year. Pierce had a bit of an off year and it is anyone’s guess what Garnett will be like.

Ray Allen had perhaps his second best year ever. This was driven largely by gains WS thinks he has made on defense over the last couple years, which I suspect to be driven by who he has around him. he also had his most efficient shooting season, which strikes me as a bit fluky. I’m going to dock him back to his career norm, which also happens to be his 07-08 production of 9.5 wins, putting the team at 58.5

As for Rondo, I must admit that I’ve looked for ways to call a fall-off in his production. (Not because I don’t like him. I do. For a Celtic. More because there are so many things that could go astray for him.) On defense, I think he’s probably already maxed out. On offense, he certainly has room for growth (especially in his jump shooting). But, he could easily see significant fall-off overall if he drives to the rim less. He has taken an extraordinary number of inside shots for a PG, very productively, especially for one who isn’t all that big (yes, I know, he has long arms). I’m going to let a little bit of gut feeling creep in and assume he backslides part-way back to his sophomore production on offense. There goes another 1.5 wins, down to 57.

Eddie House shot just crazy well last year. Returning him to career-average production takes away another win. 56.

Perkins is young enough to have theoretical upside, but hasn’t shown much reason to think he actually will get better on offense. He’s probably tapped out on defense. No change.

Everything else is fiddling around the margins. 56-26, mostly because they have a harder time scoring due to a drop-off in outside shooting.

by bwoodsxyz on Sep 4, 2009 10:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Excellent

Can you do the same thing for the Wizards?

I’d start with the 2007-08 edition of the Wizards and add in the impact of Gilbert Arenas, Randy Foye, Mike Miller, and slight improvements in Andray Blatche and Nick Young (assuming he will actually get to see the court)…

Perhaps tweak the numbers down for Haywood (since 07-08 was a career year for him), and the loss of Songaila.

Make whatever other tweaks you think are necessary and see where you think they’ll end up using WS….???

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Sep 4, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He did this already

Earlier in the summer. On my phone so I can’t find the link.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Sep 4, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I may revisit later

I previously did it in a fanpost with 06-07 as a baseline, and got to 48.5 wins.

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2009/6/24/923535/projecting-the-09-10-wizards-using

Sometime nearer the start of the season I’ll probably redo the analysis, applying a better guess as to minutes and maybe making some more individual adjustments to player productivity.

by bwoodsxyz on Sep 4, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also can revisit WoW

They did a (rather rough, especially since they didn’t adjust for minutes) analysis that was linked to on this site and came up with a range of 45-50 wins.

by bwoodsxyz on Sep 4, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

I just did a rough one, using 2007-08 as a baseline – but I didn’t adjust for minutes and came up with 52.7 wins… The impact from Arenas’ return alone was huge. I’d guess that, after adjusting for minutes, I’d come up with around 48 wins (or just about what you came up with using 2006-07 as the baseline). Of course, your caveat was that to get there, everything must go right for the Wizards – and that still applies ….

I’m not a stats guy…. but this team seems to be put together much better than previous Wizard’s teams. There’s a good mix of inside and outside … youth and experience …. athletic excitement and savvy craftiness … with probably the one of the best benches in the EC. I still have visions Summer League when Nick Young was running around picks and hitting open jumpers (ala Rip Hamilton). I see Miller draining 3’s, Arenas averaging 9 assists, Oberto and Haywood setting screens then rolling to the basket; Haywood, Blatche, McGuire and McGee having block fests; and Nick , Dom , Caron and Javale soaring for break away dunks. Not to mention the consistent, everyday production from Jamison and Butler. The synergy and balance of this team, along with the efficiency that Flip Saunder’s offense brings should lead to more wins than any team Eddie Jordan had.

Just the difference between Eddie Jordan calling the plays at the end of games (give it to someone at the top of the key, run the clock down, and see what they can do one-on-one) , and Flip Saunders will be worth at least 2 games.

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Sep 4, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Talent vs age

Hard to predict what will happen with the Celts. Their top guys are declining while Rondo, Davis and Perkins are improving. They looked rickety at times last year, but I think they still have one more good year in them. Rasheed and Daniels should help a little (although Rasheed and Davis battling for minutes sounds like a disaster waiting to happen). I’ll say 59 wins.

by steadyhand on Sep 4, 2009 4:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Eh, I think they have one or two years of at least 50 wins

There’s too much talent here to not drop off as hugely as some people here are expecting. KG has at least two years of elite production left in him on both ends, Allen’s primary skill doesn’t decline with age, Pierce should remain fairly solid next year, Rondo, Perkins, and Davis will only get better, and ’Sheed’s style of play has significantly reduced the strain on his body. I could see the injury bug causing them problems, but not enough to drop from third in the East. They simply have a much larger margin for error than say Washington, which needs all of its stars to be healthy, Saunders’ system to jumpstart the offense to elite status, and acquire some semblance of defense. I think Washington will be good, but it’s really wishful thinking to expect Boston to drop off tremendously and Washington to overachieve to such a degree.

Past 2011 though, they’re done with that core. KG and Pierce will have significantly slowed down, and I can’t see Davis or Perkins suddenly becoming elite players to compensate for their loss.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Sep 6, 2009 4:38 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yeah

you have to predict boston will be better than the wiz this year. as a fan i hope the wiz surprise though.

by DarrellWalkerFan on Sep 6, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

60+ Wins

Put me down for 60+ for the celtics. KG’s got a great work ethic and he will do what it takes to get healthy. Sheeds addition will be good for him and the team.

by forthepeople on Sep 7, 2009 3:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Doc Rivers ...

Is he a good coach, or just lucky?

I think Boston fans, before KG fell into their lap, were a bit too critical of Doc. That being said, I think he has the potential to get out-coached by someone like Flip Saunders in the playoffs …. yes, even though Rivers has won a championship.

Overall, I think the Celtics, between a combination of injury and taking the regular season for granted, will falter a bit during the 82 game stretch and will be fighting with Atlanta for that 4-5 seed, potentially setting up a nice battle between the two (where I’d be tempted to take the Hawks to win the first round series).

Of course, this depends on a lot of “ifs” … and Boston, as a 4 or 5 seed, will be that team that “no one wants to face”, for obvious reasons, and for the fact that their role players will likely get significant run during the regular season.

Rondo won’t be taking a step back, but the team will still need to find their way under his offensive guidance, the integration of Rasheed, and dealing with Kendrick Perkins, whose personality could get in the way of him being an upper echelon TEAM contributor.

Win Prediction: 54

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.

by Truth About It on Sep 7, 2009 3:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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