Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Jerry Sandusky's Wife Tries To Run A Reporter Over

More Jamison

Update from bwoods--sparked by a comment from nate33, I did some more looking at Jamison's fit on that Mavs team. I responded to nate33 in the comments, but have also updated the post to include discussion of how Mike Miller's size and shooting might help open things up for Jamison inside.

This week's column seeks to add a bit more to the Jamison rebounding discussion but heads off into a long digression on the significance of Jamison's season in Dallas.

  Jamison_dallas_medium

Star-divide

First, a few words on rebounding metrics-I prefer rebound percentages.  Of course, the easiest percentage is how many of available rebounds did the individual player grab.  Another interesting stat is, however, the percentage of available rebounds the team got while the player was on the floor.  Total rebounds are a lot less interesting, because even making a time adjustment (looking at rebounds on a per-36 basis rather than per-game) ignores two really important things largely beyond the player's control-(1) were there more or fewer opportunities to rebound because the team played at an unusually fast or slow pace? And (2) were there more or fewer opportunities because the team was unusually (in)efficient offensively or defensively.  That said, I'll look at Jamison's %s and ignore his counting #s.  Due to a digression that has swallowed the column, I won't much get to the team rebounding impact this week.

The Gentleman has had a fairly unusual career on the boards.  In what might have been expected to be his athletic prime-his 24, 25, and 26 y.o. seasons in Golden State-he was a somewhat sub-par rebounder for a power forward (though not so bad for a small forward, helping along his reputation as a tweener), hovering around a 10% rebound percentage, getting to about 12-14.5% of available defensive rebounds and 6.5-8% of available offensive rebounds.  For some perspective, players in that neighborhood last year were generally solid-rebounding perimeter players like Trevor Ariza and Joey Graham and mediocre-rebounding big men like Jason Collins and Rasho Nesterovic.

Then, in 03-04, he landed in Dallas and posted a huge improvement in his offensive rebounding, posting a 10.4%  Meanwhile, his defensive rebounding held steady at 13.5%.  This combination was itself odd.  There have been only 8 player-seasons this decade of 1500+ minutes with an offensive rebound rate of at least 10% but a defensive rebound rate under 15%.  Two of those belong to Ruben Patterson.  Another is Brendan Haywood in 02-03, his first year as a starter.  The others are Marc Jackson, Vin Baker, Alan Henderson, and Erick Dampier

Why did his offensive rebounding rate go up like that, to a level he's never reached since?  Almost certainly because he spent more time near the basket on offense.  Only 52% of his FG attempts that season were Js (meaning 48% were either "close" or "inside" as defined by 82games).  His last year in GS, that figure had been 72%.  And, in his 5 seasons in Washington, they've been 75%, 75%, 73%, 70%, and 66%. 

Which brings me to the digression. 

There has been broad, though certainly not universal, sentiment in the Wiz fan community for moving Jamison to the bench as a 6th man in the role he held in Dallas. What it seems would make a much bigger and better difference, however, would be to have Jamison play inside more as he did in his role in Dallas.

By both PER and Win Shares (and I suspect any other major aggregate measure), he had his most valuable season that year.  Incredibly, he produced more Win Shares that year (9.3) in 2,376 minutes than in any other season of his career.  The closest he came was in 2007-08, when he posted 8.9, but in 700 more minutes.  (Remember that Win Shares is a cumulative stat-playing more should generally get you more of it.  So, that 9.3 WS in 2,376 minutes is awesome.)  Certainly one driver for why the measures like the 03-04 season so much is because of that O-rebound rate.  But, the really big deal were his shooting %s.  His TS% and eFG% that year were both career highs, as he posted impressive numbers of 58.1% and 54.3%, with a fairly high usage rate (20.7%, which is, however, lower than his last two years) and typically low turnovers (7.2%). 

That is a lethally efficient offensive combination.  Was some of that simply a result of spending more second-team minutes on the floor and beating up on lesser players?  Perhaps a very little.  (Actually, most of his minutes came with the starters, filling in at SF or PF.) 

The overwhelming explanation for the difference, however, seems to be that he played/shot inside so much more, boosting his overall efficiency with more high percentage shots, which both PER and particularly Win Shares, absolutely love.  We've already seen Jamison's advanced shooting percentages improve over the last few years as he has slightly cut down on his jump-shooting.  Maybe the change he can make that would most help the team would not be to come off then bench, but rather to spend more time down low on offense.

I'd be remiss, however, if I didn't note, as a digression to the digression, that Jamison's Dallas team had a certain brilliant-passing PG who Jamison saw a lot of time with and that over 70% of Jamison's inside/close shots were assisted, compared with closer to 60% in recent years with the Wiz.  So, really what we might want is for Jamison to go down low and Arenas to reward him with the ball while he's there.  Also, many of the minutes were with Nowitzki nominally at the 5, so maybe this scheme needs a better j-shooting center to actually work.  As has previously been noted, the Wiz main rotation centers have poor track records as jumpshooters, though Oberto is ok.

On the other hand, as nate33 pointed out in the comments, based on 82games data, Jamison was most effective during the time 82games had him as a SF on that team.  Most of those "SF" minutes were minutes with Antoine Walker on the floor as well.  How 82games decided Walker was the PF and Jamison was the SF in that alignment is beyond me—seems like a tossup. If anyone here watched enough of that Dallas team, please chime in on how they were used. Antoine’s inside vs jumpshot allocation was similar to Antawn’s, except Walker’s Js were generally from beyond the arc (more than 300 wildly inefficient 3-pt attempts vs 40 3-pt attempts for Jamison), which one might associate more with SF than PF anyway. They are the same size and age. So why is Walker listed as the PF while Jamison is the SF?

But, I think how you assign Antoine and Antawn to those forward spots may be a distinction without a difference.  Something I think that is interesting for the 09-10 Wizards is that they might be able to replicate, but improve on that alignment in at least one respect (nothing to be done about the lack of a Nowitzki, though).  It seems to me that Mike Miller could essentially fill that Antoine Walker role, except much, much, much better. Miller is the same height and weights only slightly less, and no one ever accused Walker of playing defense (dude frequently never made it back to the FT line, to my recollection), so I don’t see how much there is to lose at that end. Miller is every bit Walker’s equal on the defensive boards, though not as good on the offensive boards, so you do lose a little something there. But even at Miller’s worst you’d WAY prefer him shooting 3s to Walker shooting 3s. The difference can’t be overstated. Miller is a tremendously more efficient and effective outside scorer than Walker. Surely that would partly balance what you lose in having the Wiz 5s on the floor instead of Nowitzki. I’ve been so focused on Miller in terms of how he fits with Arenas and Butler, but maybe Miller-Jamison is where there is a really useful fit.

Quite a puzzle for Flip to work out.

End digression.

Since coming to the Wiz, Jamison's offensive rebounding stats have fallen to pre-Dallas levels, fluctuating in the 5.5 to 8% neighborhood, while he has started posting better (and more appropriate for a PF) defensive rebounding numbers.  His defensive rebound % last year was the 3rd best of his career at 20.5%, only 2.8% lower than his career-best the prior season.  20+% is a huge increase from the 12s and 14s of his Golden State career.  I have yet to find another big-minute player who became a notably better defensive rebounder later in their career in quite this way.  Since he only started hitting the offensive boards at a point in his career when he should have been expected to have an even older version of his already old-man-game, it is hard to project when his numbers will fall off due to age.  As Jake already noted, getting Haywood back could make a bit off difference, since he is a much better individual defensive rebounder than Songaila (though not much better by % than McGee/Blatche), but, again as Jake noted, Jamison was getting boards with Haywood here anyway.

So, was the increase due to a change in his personal approach to the game?  Was it a necessary outgrowth of Eddie's small-ball and (other than Brendan) worthless-non-rebounding-center tendencies?  Perhaps.  It will be very interesting to see what he does on the boards this year, and whether it looks like the change in coaching and likely change in defensive scheme has anything to do with it.

Comment 16 comments  |  2 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Good stuff

One other odd thing about his season in Dallas was that he shot only 40 three-pointers all year. I’m sure it’s because he was closer to the basket most of the time as bwoods pointed out, but that’s still strikingly low. My understanding of Saunders’ offense is that the power forwards don’t spent a ton of time that far out (except for ‘Sheed), but Jamison’s offensive profile is different than that of, say, Antonio McDyess.

Jamison is so great around the basket that I’d love to see him play down there more, but I wonder how much that will actually happen.

Ridiculous Upside, where developing talent and winning are not mutually exclusive.

by Jon L on Sep 2, 2009 2:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Exactly my feelings... again confirmed by bwoods stats

Absolutely he needs to be closer to the basket. He’s a good shooter for a PF (if he really even is one), and he can get hot, but we have enough jump shooters on the team. Since Caron doesn’t drive to the hole, Arenas loves to jack up 3s (which is fine by me), and now we have Foye and Miller, we don’t need Jamison jacking up as many jumpers and 3s as he did the last two years without Arenas.

I LOVE Jamison. He’s ALWAYS been our best and most consistent player. When you factor in the injuries of Arenas and Caron (on top of Caron’s slumps), Jamison is like a freakin’ rock. I don’t get anyone saying he should be replaced by… uh.. Blatche?! Do you watch any Wizards games? On top of that, I hate the “let’s make our bench stronger” argument. If you want to make your bench stronger, then trade away scrubs and a draft pick to bring in great players – you don’t bench your starters.

When naysayers and statisticians say the Wizards are going to win less than 40 games, a big excuse or reason was “Jamison is only getting older.” While history shows production decreases with mid-30s age, Jamison has proved he’s not there yet. What’s great about this next season, is that Jamison will have greater opportunities to be more EFFICIENT, and his numbers could be BETTER than last year, despite having less opportunities.

I love the argument of having Jamison closer to the basket. I’ve been yelling this to my buddies for years, and while he doesn’t have size, his unorthodox flip shot off a post move has been proven deadly.

We love you Jamison. You’re more of a Washington Wizard than anyone else on this team. Ain’t no way in hell you’re being benched.

My swag was phenomenal.

by se7en on Sep 2, 2009 2:53 PM EDT reply actions  

I have a feeling

that last year AJ spent more time in the paint. That’s just my impression. Anyone else agree? Is there statistical data that might help corroborate or dispel this feeling of mine?

by MR on Sep 2, 2009 2:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Very little insight

The only analysis I can offer is tallying the numbers from NBA HotSpots, which is only showing where his shots were on the floor, and taking a shot is a small fraction of time spent on the floor. Nonetheless, it can show trends.

I added up all the numbers for 2 Point FGs only, for the last 3 seasons:

With Arenas (06-07), he clearly took less 2pt FGs, but if you compare the last two seasons without Arenas, he clearly shot MORE from inside than outside this past year, but not by much. This past year, 76.4% of his 2pt FGs were close to the basket. The year before that, 74.7% of his 2pt FGs were close to the basket. Playing with Arenas (06-07), 71% of his 2pt FGs were close ones. Clearly, there’s been a trend over the past 3 years of shooting more shots from inside than outside. Although this is only looking at 2pt FGs, his 3PA per game show decline over the past 3 years as well: 5.4 to 4.5 to 3.9 this past year.

What I also found interesting based on the HotSpots figures, was his obsession with the right side. He shot almost twice as much on the right side of the hoop than he did on the left side. Who knows what that means or matters.

My swag was phenomenal.

by se7en on Sep 2, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

It might be because he literally has no left hand

I’ve never seen someone be so successful with a complete inability to dribble or finish with his left hand.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Sep 2, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unable or too smart?

I wonder if he really completely can’t do it, or whether he has the smarts not to because it needless increases the risk of turnovers. He really does have remarkably few TOs. Here’s the list of players this decade who have posted a season with a sub 8.0% TO rate, while posting 18+ppg and a 22%+ usage rate:
Jamison (four times)
Nowitzki (twice)
Redd
Marion
Josh Howard
Aldridge
Michael Finley

by bwoodsxyz on Sep 2, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whatever it is, he still never uses his left hand in games

That’s the measuring stick. If he uses it in practice, big whoop.

You’re taught to be strong with both hands in games, but somehow, he makes it work.

The only guy I can think of who played a similar style was Sam Perkins with his left hand.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Sep 2, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right side baseline

How many points do you think Jamison has put on the board from that spot with his patented fallaway hook/flip from way behind his body? Completely unblockable. And completely unmakeable by anyone else. What do you think? Is there anyone on the planet who could beat Antawn in a game of HORSE?

by yop32 on Sep 2, 2009 4:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Gave this a rec simply for calling AJ "The Gentleman"

But the rest of this post was great!

I’d almost rather have Jamison shooting his crazy “trick” shots closer to the basket than patrolling the arc …. and for the obvious reasons you pointed out … so he can rebound more and give the team some quality second chances.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.

by Kyle Weidie on Sep 3, 2009 10:26 AM EDT reply actions  

In the 'Great Minds Think Alike' category

I tagged Jamison as The Gentleman since way back. [linky The Decline in Great Nicknames via Mike Lee with a rhyme and ever’thang].

Though I like ‘El Capitawn’ too (be-thunk by I forget who).

by doclinkin on Sep 4, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dirk Nowitzki

Go look at the 82games.com breakdown by position and compare his numbers at PF versus his numbers in 07/08. As a PF in Dallas, Jamison averaged 23.6 points per with an eFG% of 53% and 5.1 FTA’s (per 48). As a PF in Washington, Jamison averaged 27.2 points with an eFG% of 49% and 7.2 FTA’s (per 48). The numbers are pretty similar once you factor the expected loss in efficiency that goes with the increase in shot attempts.

The big difference in “Dallas Jamison” was when he moved to SF. As a SF, Jamison was able to average 24.6 points on 54.5% shooting (and 6.1 FTA’s). Now THAT’s some impressive shooting.

Dirk Nowitzki was the reason for Jamison’s success. Because of Nowitzki, not only was Jamison free to operate in the paint, but he was free to do so while being guarding by small forwards. Jamison is a respectable low post scorer against power forwards, he destroys small forwards in the post. Obviously, it helped that he spent much more of his time facing backups. And his efficiency was also aided by being a secondary scorer rather than a primary scorer

Jamison’s situation in Dallas was unique. I don’t think it’s a fair standard for comparison because it is doubful that those conditions will be duplicated again. We can’t just tell Jamison to “go post up some more” and expect him to post the same kind of numbers.

by nate33 on Sep 3, 2009 10:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Antoine Walker

First, I definitely agree with your last sentence. There’s no way of knowing how it would play out with the current Wiz roster without trying it. Maybe it was only the peculiarity of that Dallas roster that gave Jamison that particular effectiveness. I tried to allow for that in the original post.

Your point about Nowitzki has some merit, though I suspect any spread-the-floor center would work since no defense would put its center on Jamison, given a choice, in any event. (Unfortunately, the Wiz probably don’t possess a spread-the-floor center, given the horrors of Haywood/Blatche/McGee as jumpshooters. Actually, I take that back—Oberto has been useful with the J. But I still don’t want to see too much of that lineup.)

But, two other things going back to that Dallas team, both Antoine Walker related:

(1) for most of those Jamison-at-SF minutes, Antoine Walker was listed as the PF. How 82games decided Walker was the PF and Jamison was the SF in that alignment is beyond me—seems like a tossup. If anyone here watched enough of that Dallas team, please chime in on how they were used. Antoine’s inside vs jumpshot allocation was similar to Antawn’s, except Walker’s Js were generally from beyond the arc (more than 300 wildly inefficient 3-pt attempts vs 40 3-pt attempts for Jamison), which one might associate more with SF than PF anyway. They are the same size and age. So why is Walker listed as the PF while Jamison is the SF?

(2) I don’t think (1) makes much difference here anyway, because it seems to me that Mike Miller could essentially fill that Antoine Walker role, except much, much, much better. Miller is the same height and weights only slightly less, and no one ever accused Walker of playing defense (dude frequently never made it back to the FT line, to my recollection), so I don’t see how much there is to lose at that end. Miller is every bit Walker’s equal on the defensive boards, though not as good on the offensive boards, so you do lose a little something there. But even at Miller’s worst you’d WAY prefer him shooting 3s to Walker shooting 3s. The difference can’t be overstated. Miller is a tremendously more efficient and effective outside scorer than Walker. Surely that would partly balance what you lose in having the Wiz 5s on the floor instead of Nowitzki. I’ve been so focused on Miller in terms of how he fits with Arenas and Butler, but maybe Miller-Jamison is where there is a really useful fit.

by bwoodsxyz on Sep 3, 2009 11:28 AM EDT reply actions  

Miller isn't Walker/Nowitzki because he's not a PF

The thing about Nowitzki and Walker is that they’re either really tall (Nowitzki) or strong (Walker). If Jamison is in the game alongside one of them, and you’re the opposing coach, you put your PF on Nowitzki/Walker and your SF on Jamison. Ergo, Jamison gets guarded by SF’s and he can post them up mercilessly.

We can’t force the same mismatch with our personnel. If Miller plays alongside Jamison, opposing coaches will continue to guard Jamison with a PF, which would help neutralize his post up game. The only way to force other teams to guard Jamison with a SF is to play him alongside Blatche. But Blatche doesn’t have the perimeter game to spread the floor for Jamison as well as Nowitzki/Walker. Teams will have an easier time double teaming Jamison if we post him up.

by nate33 on Sep 3, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I remember Antoine Walker playing an awful lot at the center position while in Dallas.

Now, that was a discombobulated team!

by NBR on Sep 3, 2009 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Washington Wizards.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Randy Wittman Seems to "Get It"

Recent FanPosts

Small
Misusing Vesely
Tumblr_lpbvdtzztv1qc7c5to1_500_small
Best 2012 Draft lottery options?
Steves_small
Attention Mr. Stern - The Big Markets will kill the NBA
Tumblr_lpbvdtzztv1qc7c5to1_500_small
Kaman worth going after?
Small
The Wiz have 4 players worth keeping.
Steve_small
This Is Where I Stand
Stan_marsh_small
Is Kyrie Irving already 'All Star' good?
Unseld_small
Keep the Three Burritoes
Small
Rebuilding the Washington Wizards
Small
Should Wiz try a 2 PG lineup

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Editor-In-Chief

Headshot_small Mike Prada

Associate Editor

Small Vanilla Gorilla

248225_small Sean Fagan

Contributors

Jakesbshot_small Jake Whitacre

Mriggs_cartoon_2__small Rook6980

Addingmachine_small bwoodsxyz

Photo_on_2010-12-10_at_10 Bullet Nation in Exile