How Deep Was My Bench?
Editor's Note, by Mike: Updated to include a look at the 06/07 Pistons and 07/08 Wizards.
Flip Saunders uses a short bench. He uses an 8 man rotation. How do we know that's true? Flip said it. Everyone says it. Heck, I think I've said it. But what do the box scores show?*
Let's take a look at Flip's handling of the 07-08 Pistons. And we can make some comparison to the 07-08 Wizards.
Short answer? I guess it depends on what you mean by "rotation."
Flip used only 8 or fewer players in exactly the same number of games as appears on Gilbert Arenas’s jersey. That’s right, he never limited his bench to only three players. Not once the entire season.
Ok, so how many times did he use 9 players? Must be a lot of those, right? Umm, no, that happened 8 times.
To round things out, he used 10 players in 27 games, 11 players in 25 games, and 12 players—his entire bench—in 22 games.** So, he used 10 or more players in 64 games.
The third guy off the bench averaged 15.5 minutes played. The fourth guy off the bench averaged 11 minutes played. That’s decent run for the 9th guy on the team.***
So, if the past is any guide, if we assume a top-8 of Arenas/Miller/Foye/Butler/Jamison/Haywood/McGee/Blatche (sorry DeShawn), then it isn’t the case that whoever emerges as a clear 9th, whether it is Young or Stevenson or someone else, won’t play. They’ll still be looking at frequent double-digit minutes. And being 10th doesn’t mean a guy will never see the light of day—he’ll still get his chances.
Let’s compare what we’ve seen of Flip’s last year as a head coach with how EJ handled the 07-08 Wiz in his last full season.
Players used 8 9 10 11 12 07-08 Pistons 0 8 27 25 22 06-07 Pistons 7 25 30 16 4 07-08 Wiz 8 25 40 8 1 8th 9th 10th 07-08 Pistons 15.5 in 82 11.0 in 67 6.0 in 56 06-07 Pistons 14.5 in 82 10.5 in 75 7.9 in 50 07-08 Wiz 15.0 in 82 10.6 in 74 7.8 in 49
Important note: The second table captures how many minutes per whoever was the 8th, 9th, or 10th guy in the game got in the games where the coach reached that far down on the bench and the number of games that average happened in. For the 07-08 Pistons, I threw out the last 15 games for both the 9th and 10th guys to remove the "we’ve got this thing wrapped up" distortion. (So, for example the # of games for the Pistons’ 10th player in the second table is less than the first, because I’m not counting the last 15 games for that purpose. And, I didn’t use the 0 minutes in games where a coach didn’t get that far down the bench to bring down the average. Obviously, if you look at all 82 games, the Wiz’s 9th and 10th mpg drop considerably, while the Pistons’ actually go up.)
So, when Eddie Jordan actually got to his 9th or 10th players, they played about as much as their Pistons’ counterparts. He just didn’t get there as often. And if you were one of the last two guys on the bench of the Wizards, you could pretty much forget about playing that particular game. That just wasn’t true of the Pistons.
It is things like this that make it hard to remember that the "palace of good play" was apparently a Tapscott invention, because it pretty aptly described the situation in DC even before Tapscott was the interim coach.
Conclusion: If he has more than 8 players he can use, he’ll play more than 8 players. He can probably find a day-to-day use for 10 players even without any injuries.**** Maybe he does have an 8-man "rotation"—that can mean any number of things. Perhaps 8 guys will know their schedule and anyone else is going to pick up scraps. But there will be scraps to be had.
While I don’t disagree with Prada’s point that trading quantity for quality is a good idea (it almost always is in the NBA), I do think we need not worry about the 4th man in the backcourt shuffle disappearing and never being heard from again. And, anyway, that’s all assuming everyone is healthy. Which is not something we assume ‘round these parts.
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Some random observations
- The biggest games were usually the ones where only 9 guys played. And, in those games, Flip essentially went to a full playoff-style rotation. Against teams like the Celtics and the Spurs (especially the Spurs) the bench got short. In addition to shortening the bench, the 8th and 9th guys both played sparingly. Even so, there were big, closely played games with 10 guys all playing at least 8 or 10 minutes.
- Let it be known that I always tended toward BTH’s side of the whole BTH vs ET/EJ thing anyway, but man is it striking to come across the occasional sub-10 minute game from Haywood in the box scores. Foul trouble? Nope. Ok, so he must not have been hitting the boards. No, he had some of those in his limited minutes. Whatever. I think we can expect to see Haywood 25, maybe 30 minutes per this year, but I expect he will know pretty much exactly WHICH minutes those are going to be.
- Those Pistons teams were blessed with amazing health, but looking at those #s as a Wizards fan it is just stunning. In 07-08, the 5 main starters averaged 77 games started. Rip started the fewest, playing "only" 72 games.
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* A note on the methodology: I looked at each box score, and threw out player-games where the player either: (1) played less than a minute; (2) played less than 3 minutes in a blowout; (3) played less than two minutes and either had a bagel or just did one of one thing (Mr. Oh-for-One-From-The-Field Pecherov, I’m looking in your general direction).
** Of the 22 games with 12 players, 8 of them came during the last few weeks of the season. On the other hand, that still means that 14 times during the "competitive" part of the year Flip used his whole bench.
*** I threw out the last 15 games of their season for this calculation, because Flip was obviously resting his starters for the playoffs at that point and the 9th guy saw a huge increase of minutes, averaging about 17-per over that span. I didn’t make an adjustment to the 8th guy, because those minutes didn’t change all that much. Most likely, because the 8th guy was part of the playoff rotation, even if he didn’t need the rest, Flip wasn’t about to burn him out in that time.
**** I’m not necessarily concluding that Flip MUST go deep on his bench and that Eddie will always go short. Maybe if Eddie had more "depth" he would have used it. But, the numbers definitely refute the notion that Flip is a "short bench" coach. If he has guys there I don’t see why he won’t use them.
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The Numbers Don't Tell The Whole Story on Flip
Flip Saunders was on the firing block going into the 2007-08 season. He hadn’t properly managed his roster in 2006-07 and into the 2007 playoffs, made bad substitutions and leaned to heavily on his starters— not his bench. That offseason, it was often repeated in the news media, while not citing an official statement, that Dumars had given Flip a mandate to “play and develop the bench, or else”.
The 2007-08 season for the Pistons was very different from any other under Flip. He gave Jason Maxiell the minutes he deserved. He played Amir Johnson. He had a new 1st guard off the bench in Rodney Stuckey. It felt, for a moment, that the Pistons had the deepest team in the league— as acknowledged by much of the media at the time. This was primarily the result of the improvement of Maxiell, the performance of Stuckey and the mandate from Dumars.
So yes, Flip did give the bench plenty of burn that season. But it was on two main points:
1) He had new weaponry and a deep bench
2) His job depended on it.
So what did Flip do in the playoffs? He unlearned everything he did in the regular season. He cut down the bench minutes, he limited his rotations and kept some of our most important role players out of the situations in which they were most needed.
Your numbers are very interesting— but I’d suggest they have a lot more to do with the roster and the GM than they did with Flip’s style of coaching itself.
You a Piston’s fan? Thanks for the insight.
Maybe bwood will do an analysis based on the prior year.
by MR on Aug 5, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
This was my inclination when I first heard about Flip
I agree that an analysis of his previous Pistons teams might shed more light on the truth of this. Thanks for the insights.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
06-07 Pistons
I went back in light of thethinktank’s comment and looked at the 06-07 Pistons. I’ve added the results to the tables in the main post. Basically, that rotation comes out more like the 07-08 Wizards in the numbers.
I definitely agree with thethinktank that part of this was attributable to the 07-08 team having more weapons. On that 06-07 team, the guys he was refusing to play were largely single-digit PER/0 Winshare guys like Will Blalock and Ronald Dupree. People like Flip Murray and Lindsey Hunter were getting significant playing time for parts of the season. I wouldn’t have wanted to go to that bench too deep either. If there are any serious Flip-heads out there, pick a representative Minny season and I’ll try to take a look at that when I have a chance.
One other thing maybe thethinktank can help with—March of the 06-07 really throws the numbers. During a 13 game stretch, he never used more than 4 bench guys in a game. He had almost all of his 8-player games in that sequence, as well as a 7 player game. What was going on right then? Was there a particular reason? Were there injuries? Trying to make a serious W-L push for some reason? It really stands out and it seems like there must have been a reason.
Didn't they acquire Webber in March of 07?
I dunno, just guessing. Thanks for the analysis.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Okay, nevermind
Did someone get injured? I’m honestly drawing a blank like you.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Very good post.
And as to Flip’s statement about playing 8 guys, is it not possible that he wants to foster competition in camp for those 8 slots? If I was a head coach, I sure wouldn’t want to send the message that 10 players will play no matter how prepared, ready, or good they are.
I think this post proves that if you show you can produce that Flip will go deep into the bench. It’s up to the players more than anything else.
Getting buckets since 2003.
Hecukuvananalysis
… and it proves we do not need kvell so much about the ’Zards much-herlded depth going unused by Mr Flip.
Nor does is preclude dealing some of that depth along with our best-known expiring contratct (aka “pretty foot”) for a Battier or some such come mid-season.
Great post and very interesting, but...
…this only takes into account the number of players used, but not which those players actually were. Eddie could use an 8-man rotation, only that noone would know who those 8 players were on a given night. So even if only 8 guys were used, it was still a 12-man rotation.
I think Flip would use a much more fixed rotation, but it’s just a hunch. Would be interesting to see it back up with some form of stats on the variance on the specific 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th guy.
good question, but hard to answer
I had the same question as well, but I think to answer it well you would need both a very good data set of the check-in, check-out game times of the individual players AND a way to account for variation due to injury (including both in-game minor injuries and nagging sorts of injuries that change how players are used without necessarily showing up as deactivations). I’m stumped on that.
My impression after looking at both seasons is that individual player usage was much more consistent in 07-08 than the prior year, pretty much right on down to the 9th man. In 06-07, the big man rotation had a change of personnel during the year, so it is harder to judge, but I can see in that season why Pistons fans might feel about Flip-Maxiell-Amir Johnson something similar to how Wiz fans felt about EJ-Young-Blatche. I guess I’d put it this way—it looks like Flip in 06-07 tried to have a “rotation” of about 6 or 7 players and other guys were used variably around that core, whereas in 07-08 it was a “rotation” of 8 or 9 players.
But EJ (and I admit I’m being somewhat facetious) at times had a 4 player “rotation” and filled in around that. When you are mixing and matching among 8 players to fill 3 slots of playing time, you are either going to have a ton of variation or necessarily end up with guys feeling like they are in Siberia. I don’t see an easy way out there unless you have a very clear effectiveness drop-off somewhere in that group.
Being coach of a fringe playoff team while developing young players on the bench is surely a pain in the a**. If I were a coach on a multi-year contract, I think maybe I’d try to trust the young guys even if they hadn’t earned it yet and see whether they stepped up. If I were on a one-year contract…..I have my doubts.
So
The way you are using “rotation” you mean the players that are guaranteed to play consistant heavy minutes every night but not the players who are guaranteed to actually play every night.
pretty much
That’s how I’m reading Flip’s “8-man rotation” remarks after looking at how he used guys.
however big the rotation is
a lot of holdovers from last year’s roster are going to have to adjust to significantly reduced playinbg time in comparison to last year, whether the rotation has 8 guys in it or 10 guys
we shouldn’t necessarily try to trade spare parts (and there will be a talented odd man out or two) for something bigger right now, but provided we stay healthy through the trade deadline and nobody goes down, i’d definitely be in favor of using extra guys to acquire another good player, particuarly someone who brings intensity to what looks to be a pretty jovial Wizards locker room

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