A long overdue discussion of the Washington Wizards' use of their D-League team
Jon L's parent blog Ridiculous Upside did an interesting interview with agent Bill Neff, who has several clients currently playing in the NBA Developmental League. If you're a fan of the NBA, I recommend the whole thing because it's an interesting look at an undercovered professional basketball institution.
However, it was this comment in particular that stuck out to me. Earlier in the interview, Duffy suggested that one way teams could improve their affiliation with the D-League would be to promise players spots on their Summer League teams. Duffy then took a bit of a shot at teams that don't really do that.
The global economy has affected everyone and will affect the D League. There will be fewer callups. I wish it were different. The NBA should be seeking cheap talent but by the way they used the summer leagues and just promote their own players for the most part, they will not be looking to the D League, as they should. They should be encouraging cheap talent. The hybrid teams should attempt to encourage players to come by offering summer league spots but they do not. It is really a waste of a good product to some extent.
No Summer League team in Las Vegas "promoted their own players" more than the Wizards. Flip Saunders and company used the Summer League to allow those players to practice the skills needed for Flip's system. Beyond Javaris Crittenton, Dominic McGuire, Andray Blatche, JaVale McGee and Nick Young, the other eight guys on the roster might as well have been high school guys. They didn't matter at all and didn't really play much. If I was an agent for Kyle Spain, Josh Heytfelt, Tywain McKee or Alade Aminu, I'd be pissed at the way the Wizards' used them in Summer League.
So it seems like high time to revisit the question that I think about a lot. Why don't the Wizards use their D-League affiliate very much? Should they be using it a lot?
A couple points to review for the purposes of this discussion:
- The Wizards' current D-League affiliate are the Dakota Wizards, whom they share with the Memphis Grizzlies. Dakota has been the Wizards' affiliate since 2006. Before Dakota, the Wizards were affiliated with the now-defunct Roanoke franchise.
- There are two types of call-up situations. A GATORADE call up is when a team purchases any D-League player and has them stay on their big league roster. That player earns a small salary and can be sent down if needed. A player assignment, on the other hand, is when an NBA team can send down any player in their first or second year to their D-League affiliate for extra seasoning. Two rules here: no more than two players can be assigned to the D-League team at once, and a player can only be sent down three times during the season.
- Because of the rule above, only JaVale McGee is eligible to be sent to the D-League. Memphis, on the other hand, seemingly has half their roster eligible (Darrell Arthur, DeMarre Carroll, Marc Gasol, Hamed Haddadi, O.J. Mayo, Hasheem Thabeet).
- Dakota has a new coach: Roy White, an LA Clippers assistant for the past six seasons
- The Washington Wizards have only one roster spot available. They have 14 players under contract with the acquisition of Fabricio Oberto, and the maximum roster space is 15. Only 12 of those guys can be active every game.
- Andray Blatche is the only current member of the Wizards to play in the D-League. He played six games for Roanoke in 2005/06.
- Several teams have purchased their own D-League clubs (Oklahoma City, the Lakers, San Antonio, now Dallas starting in 2010). The Houston Rockets recently bought the basketball operations of a D-League team, meaning they hire all the basketball people, but they do not own the team.
Those are the facts. Here are some snap reactions.
- Dakota as an affiliate absolutely sucks for the Wizards. It's far away, so it's not easy for Wizards management to have too much access with the club. It's coached by a former Clippers assistant and shared with a team that has so many eligible young players.
- The Wizards have still missed opportunities to use their D-League affiliate. Nick Young, Dominic McGuire and Javaris Crittenton could still use seasoning, but they're no longer eligible. Same for Oleksiy Pecherov before he got traded.
- It seems the Wizards don't really care too much about their affiliate. They don't seem to have any influence in Dakota's front office and haven't really signed too many Summer League players from Dakota. Dakota's been an outstanding team over the years, winning the D-League title in 2007 and sporting guys like Rod Benson and Blake Ahern, but Washington hasn't really been anywhere close to signing or training those guys.
The arguments for the Wizards' lack of use of their affiliate are threefold: a) they've been so injured over the past two years that they couldn't afford to send healthy practice bodies to Dakota, b) Dakota didn't run the Wizards' system, so it was more valuable for the Wizards youngsters to be learning the Wizards' system on the parent club instead of playing for the D-League club, and c) Dakota's just so damn far away.
Of the three, reason two seems the easiest to debunk. The Wizards' young guys weren't learning too much about the Princeton anyway, and considering how raw many were, they just needed game experience. Plus, if the problem was the lack of a system in Dakota, the Wizards could have easily imprinted one of their basketball people there to foster a better connection between Dakota and the parent club.
Reasons one and three are more legitimate. There were times the last two years when only eight guys were healthy, and there were other times when the veterans were too injured to practice. Warm bodies in practice are needed. And that brings us to reason three.
The single biggest problem with the Wizards' D-League relationship is that Dakota is so far away. In the Ridiculous Upside interview, Neef mentioned how D-League players could practice with the big club if need be, but that's impossible when your affiliate is halfway across the country. The Celtics, who use the D-League a lot, used the proximity argument as a basis to switch their affiliate from Utah to Maine. The Wizards once had a decent proximity in Roanoke, but it would be even better if the proximity was closer to D.C. With so much hoops being played in this area, I see no reason why a D-League team couldn't work around here. The Wizards and the NBA should work on making it happen.
Of course, one alternative would be to buy a team, like San Antonio does. But knowing the Wizards, I doubt that happens. Perhaps they could do what Houston did and buy the basketball operations office for much cheaper. But to do that, it would require having a team close by. That, in my opinion, has to be step one in improving the Wizards' D-League affiliate strategy.
In the meantime, don't be afraid to send JaVale McGee down to Dakota. His confidence will be fine and it'll provide good seasoning for him if he can't earn minutes on the real club. In addition, sign an undrafted rookie for the 15th spot on the roster and shuffle him down to Dakota too. Someone like Josh Heytfelt or Alade Aminu would be a good use of that spot, since they played on the Wizards' Summer League team. Who knows, you might end up with a major steal down the road for nothing.
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I've often wondered if Baltimore could support an NBDL team
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
by Truth About It on Aug 17, 2009 12:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If not Baltimore, there seem to me to be several other possibilities
Why not Richmond? Bowie? Frederick? Any DC suburb? Somewhere in Delaware?
Seems like all could do it.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Aug 17, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Northern Virginia
Patriot Center?
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Aug 17, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except that I doubt it would be a Wizards-only affiliate
Depending on whether it was north or south of DC, a D-League team in this general area might also be affiliated with someone like Charlotte or Philadelphia.
Ridiculous Upside, where we treat press releases with the respect and reverence they deserve.
by Jon L on Aug 17, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that the Wiz would probably not purchase their own team
But the BEST scenario would be to do it that way…..
We’ve been fans of this “frugal” franchise for a long time – so it’s natural for us to just shrug and assume they’d share an affiliate…. but that’s NOT the best scenario….
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Aug 17, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure it would
But I’m also being realistic, and even if a team started out with multiple affiliations and was based on Baltimore or Richmond, the Wizards could become their direct/sole affiliate later on and they wouldn’t be any farther away than Austin is from San Antonio, or even Rio Grande Valley is from Houston.
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by Jon L on Aug 17, 2009 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baltimore was my first thought as well.
Ridiculous Upside, where we treat press releases with the respect and reverence they deserve.
by Jon L on Aug 17, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Charm City plays hoops but hates minor league ball
Baltimore has produced so many good players (dating well back before the legendary Dunbar team in the early 80s that produced Reggie Williams, Reggie Lewis, Muggsy Bogues and David Wingate) that one would think residents of the City that Reads would also make it the City that Supports the Local Minor League Basketball Team.
Not so.
Baltimore had a CBA team (the Lightning) in the 80s (interesting fact — Dave Hopla was one of the last cuts by the team) but no one went to the games. I managed to visit one game before the team folded or moved on (don’t recall which) and I was one of probably a dozen paying fans (and the tickets were CHEAP).
In the late 90s, there was another minor-league team, which included former Dunbar and Maryland star Keith Booth, who had been cut by the Bulls (I think before his guaranteed rookie contract ran out). I think that might have been a USBL team. Don’t recall exactly, but nobody went to those games, either, and I don’t think the franchise lasted a season in Charm City.
For my money, somewhere on the Virginia shore (Norfolk?) might work well. It’s got some good basketball, but folks there probably aren’t so convinced they’re in a big-league town that they’ll not bother with a minor-league team (which I think is part of the problem with Baltimore).
"Now, obviously individual production does not unilaterally equal better team production, but there's a high level of causation."
by Vanilla Gorilla on Aug 18, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Richmond?
What’s Richmond’s bball history? I’d think the Wiz would love a move to Richmond because they’re trying to get that demographic into the Wizards.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Aug 18, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys probably didn't see this
But Phil Evans, former D-League president, was said to be planning a team in Chesterfield, VA awhile back. Looks like it’ll be awhile til it happens, though..
No longer full-time blogging at Ridiculous Upside, but still go check them out since I made them. Kind of.
by Scott Schroeder on Aug 18, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chesterfield is a Richmond suburb, right?
If so, that’d be an excellent fit. Hopefully, it happens. I’d imagine the Wizards would love that because they’ve been trying hard to market to the Richmond demographic. They’ve had training camp there for a couple years now.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Aug 18, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Richmond's minor-league history is . . .
So-so. They had the Richmond Rhythm that came with a lot of fanfare in a league that had some fanfare (the IBL I think). With the exception of one playoff run absolutely no one went to the games. A minor-league team that is affiliated with the Wizards might have a better shot though.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Aug 19, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for changing the headline from "NBDL" to "D-League"
Good post, and I agree that the Wizards should use their D-League affiliate more often (Shocker!), but I’m not so sure you’re right that they don’t use it because the Dakota Wizards are so far away from the Washington Wizards.
You cite the Celtics, but they seemed fine sending their players to Orem because JR Giddens and Bill Walker both spent a considerable part of their season in Utah last season.
I’m not sure I buy your “Dakota as an affiliate absolutely sucks for the Wizards” because they’re further away for another reason. When Hamed Haddadi was assigned to the Dakota Wizards last season, they also sent Gordon Chiesa to keep any eye on his progress during both assignments. This would seem entirely possible for the Wizards to do as well.
What does it matter that the team is coached by Rory (not Roy) White because he’s a former Clippers assistant? Flip Saunders and Randy Wittman are former Timberwolves, Don Zierden is a former Pistons assistant and Sam Cassell played for the Clippers. I’m not sure why the Dakota Wizards previous coaching stops has any bearing on this.
In my mind, I think the reason that Washington hasn’t assigned players to Dakota is simply the injury bug.
Love to hear your thoughts on this Mike.
P.S. The Wizards are trying to have open tryouts in D.C. this season. Thoughts?
No longer full-time blogging at Ridiculous Upside, but still go check them out since I made them. Kind of.
by Scott Schroeder on Aug 17, 2009 1:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd say
The location is a big drawback that smart teams can overcome. The Wizards haven’t really tried to overcome it. It’s like trying to win the NBA title without a superstar or a dominant big man; you can do it if you’re creative, but having one or the other makes things a whole lot easier.
I also think the injuries are big, but the Wizards could have assigned guys to Dakota before the season started and before the injuries got really, really bad. They also could have called up D-League players during the season when the roster got slimmer, but never did. I do think there’s an attitude that goes beyond the injuries. Short of getting the Wizards to change their attitude, I think having a better location is the best way to improve things.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Aug 17, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this point I don't know that they even need to focus on their affiliate
The impression I get is that the Wizards front office isn’t paying any attention to the D-League as whole, not just to their own affiliate. It would be a step forward, I think, just for them to call up any player, even if that guy didn’t come from Dakota. Last season the Knicks were affiliated with the Reno Bighorns, but they called guys up from Iowa and Albuquerque, among other places. The (D-League) Wizards being halfway (three-quarters of the way?) across the country shouldn’t be a barrier to finding good, inexpensive talent.
Ridiculous Upside, where we treat press releases with the respect and reverence they deserve.
by Jon L on Aug 17, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I totally agree
And it seems you aren’t going to teach old dogs new tricks. That’s why I think the best option is to move a team closer to DC as a way to force them to pay attention.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Aug 17, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because they did send people down to Roanoke
Blatche went there. So did Peter John Ramos. They just stopped caring once the affiliate switched to Dakota.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Aug 17, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's a big generalization
Did they actually go to Roanoke to watch the PJ or Blatche? If they didn’t (and I suspect they did not), I don’t see what the difference is.
The D-League is much more accessible than it was back in the NBDL days. You can watch any game, live, via the comfort of your own home just by logging on to the D-League site (They’re also archived).
No longer full-time blogging at Ridiculous Upside, but still go check them out since I made them. Kind of.
by Scott Schroeder on Aug 17, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget
the D-League provision that says teams can assign coaches to their affiliate as well. Send down an assistant and have him keep an eye on the Vale.
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by Ridiculous Matt on Aug 17, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I totally agree there should be a D-League team near DC...
and affiliated with the Wizards… A team in Bowie or Baltimore with Juan Dixon as playing coach and featuring as much local talent as possible would draw a few fans and give the Wizards a good place to hold and evaluate undrafted and “second-chance” talent.
by khrabb on Aug 17, 2009 5:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts
1. The Wizard’s D-League affiliate is the Dakota Wizards. They play in Bismarck, ND. That’s North effing Dakota.
Comments:
2. The Wizards share the D-League team with the Memphis Grizzlies.
Comments:
Pecherov was made for the D-League. Injured his first year. A wasted opportunity to develop him this year… A talented player sitting at the end of the bench all year…. and he was traded without ever having been given the opportunity to develop his talent. THAT is what the D-League is for…. PLAYER DEVELOPMENT… But because of the restrictive rules, the excessive distance between the clubs, and reluctance of the Coaching staff to be without enough bodies to practice with – the Wizards D-League Team is a farce.
San Antonio does it right. They don’t share their D-League team with anyone else. They can have the same Coaching philosophy at the NBA and the D-League, teaching the same Offense, the same Defense…. The affiliate is in Austin, Tx. (less than 80 miles away). The Spurs actively use their D-League affiliate.
The Utah Jazz affiliate is the Utah Flash, located 40 miles away in Provo, UT. Although they share an affiliate with the Celtics, the Jazz regularly sent players to the D-League affiliate.
The LA Lakers affiliate is the Los Angeles Defenders; also not shared with another NBA club. And they use their affiliate also, sending players down for development.
The "good" clubs seem to get it !
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Aug 17, 2009 6:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Explain to me why location is so important
“North effing Dakota” isn’t necessary, I don’t think. You brought up the Jazz who used their team effectively… but the Celtics also used that team well. Milwaukee used Tulsa well with Sessions as well, so I don’t buy the “North effing Dakota” sucks because it’s not in the Northeast.
Los Angeles hasn’t really used the D-League extremely effective, either. Over the course of the D-League, I’d say Dallas and Denver have both had more success with the D-League.
While I don’t think it’s the Washington Wizards fault at all, I’d rather the blame not be focused on Dakota either. I don’t see any reason why affiliate location is so important when teams can assign assistant coaches to accompany assigned players, as well as call-up players from any teams.
No longer full-time blogging at Ridiculous Upside, but still go check them out since I made them. Kind of.
by Scott Schroeder on Aug 17, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scott, nobody's blaming Dakota
I think it’s fairly safe to say that Rook and I are blaming the Wizards. It’s the Wizards’ fault that they aren’t pushing for an affiliate change or the creation of a team closer to their area. It’s the Wizards fault that they aren’t doing what you’re suggesting. What is Dakota supposed to do, volunteer to no longer be the Wizards’ affiliate?
We’re just saying that with this front office, location matters, because they’re more traditional and less creative with these things than most front offices. And Rook is saying in an ideal world, the Wizards have their own affiliate. I think that’s remarkably unrealistic as you and Jon L have suggested, but I don’t think he’s slighting Dakota.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Aug 17, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Put it this way: If Rook is blaming Dakota, he’s wrong.
(Rook, in case you didn’t know, Scott works for the Dakota Wizards and lives up there).
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Aug 17, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scott, Absolutely NOT blaming the Dakota affiliate
My point in emphasizing North “effing” Dakota is that they may as well have put an affiliate in Nome “effing” Alaska….. or freaking Hawaii….
I mean, if we we were fans of the Minnesota Timberwolves, I’d be ecstatic to have a class D-League affiliate, like Bismarck, ND. Close enough to send players back and forth…. Close enough to share a fan base. Winning tradition.
and as “fine” a dance team that you can find anywhere
They have affiliates in Erie, PA and Springfield, MA – Why would the Wizards choose an affiliate in ND?
The Wizards have never used their D-League affiliate effectively. I believe it’s because they’re one of the more “frugal” teams in the League… and because it’s never been part of the Team’s normal operating mind-set.
1. A closer affiliate would alleviate any fears about getting help to the big club quickly (in case of injury, suspension, etc…)
2. A closer affiliate would allow Wizard’s fans to see the developing players get some time (at a considerably discounted rate, as related to the Verizon Center prices, for example)
If the Wizards owned their own affiliate – they could control the Coaching philosophies. They could cross-promote. ( Doesn’t exactly work right now: "See the Wizard’s stars of the future… fly across the Country to see your Dakota Wizards? )
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Aug 17, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bismarck is about a 5 hour flight from DC.
Anchorage is more like 10. Honolulu about 12.
by MR on Aug 17, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are benefits that a closer location could bring
But I really wouldn’t say it’s a deal-breaker, as it felt like was happening earlier in the thread.
I know you’re no longer hung up on the location, but I’m still going to answer your question as thoroughly as I’m able.
“They have affiliates in Erie, PA and Springfield, MA – Why would the Wizards choose an affiliate in ND?”
Because in Dakota, the players will actually play meaningful minutes against like competition, as opposed to running drills and walking through opponent sets in practice before watching that nights game. As the season goes on, teams are even practicing less.
They’d be coached by a coach that will do whatever is needed to get them to the next level in Rory White because ideally, he’d like to be back at the next level and developing assigned players would make a good case for himself.
The Wizards have a winning tradition (second highest winning % since joining the D-League in 2006) and, I believe, players learn how to win from playing on winning teams.
Disclaimer: I am, as Mike said, the Director of Public/Media Relations for the Dakota Wizards, though even if I wasn’t affiliated, and I believe we had this discussion in the past on BF, I’d still be an advocate that location isn’t as big of a deal as some fans seem to believe. I’m also happy with the way the Dakota-Washington affiliation is working out behind the scenes, as I talked about here.
No longer full-time blogging at Ridiculous Upside, but still go check them out since I made them. Kind of.
by Scott Schroeder on Aug 18, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right: It's not the location, it's the ownership arrangements
Teams with sole ownership of a dedicated D-League franchise are in position to manage the talent they have down there. It’s not location. Those teams can choose coaches, and guide them about how to play their guys, and all that.
(Not surprisingly, the Spurs and Lakers are two teams that do own their own D-League affiliates. So yeah, they get that, at least.)
There’s going to be a great example of some franchise that simply treats their D-League arrangement as a constructive way of developing players. It’ll probably be one of these teams that has the 1:1 relationship, and that chooses a good young coach for that setting. They’ll take a low first round pick and turn him into a starter by getting him lots of PT in an environment where he can learn. And suddenly, poof, the asinine insistence that it’s a horrible punishment for someone to be assigned there will go away. Maybe teams will even send all their young talent down for a while, letting them get their legs. DUH. And I’ll love it. I really will.
The St. Louis Cardinals created the baseball farm system, and had a competitive advantage for a generation of players. NBA teams that got out in front of international scouting: Dallas, the Spurs. Big advantage. The D-league can be this sort of edge for someone.
by feral on Aug 19, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ramon Sessions?
Though they had an old coach (Joey Meyer), he was a late second round pick, and people still think it’s a punishment.
No longer full-time blogging at Ridiculous Upside, but still go check them out since I made them. Kind of.
by Scott Schroeder on Aug 20, 2009 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The last point is one that I made at some point last season
I’d point out though that the Lakers don’t use their affiliate all that much. They send down players occasionally to learn the Triangle, but not nearly to the extent that teams like San Antonio or Oklahoma City use the Toros or 66ers. With the Utah example, the Celtics also sent players down to the Flash, JR Giddens and Bill Walker.
As for how a young Wizards player would learn the match-up zone in Dakota, they wouldn’t. D-League teams affiliated with more than one NBA team don’t usually run one of those teams’ offense/defense (though I think Utah might, and Maine seems to be so pro-Celtics at this point that I’d be surprised if they didn’t run Boston’s offense), but I would argue that in specific examples like Pecherov or Blatche a few years ago, they don’t have to. Players like that aren’t usually at the point in their careers where they’re learning nuance. A rookie like Blatche (or a player like Pecherov may indeed still be) need to develop general sound defensive principles and offensive moves, AND THEN can learn the nuances of the matchup zone from the pro coaches. And while this isn’t universal across the league, Dakota had a very highly-regarded coach for years who would’ve done a good job teaching those kinds of things.
The other thing about having a D-League affiliate which hasn’t really been discussed here is that it’s a two-way affiliation. One of my biggest problems with the (NBA) Wizards not paying attention to the D-League even beyond assigning players is that there is a lot of talent there, who can be signed for much less than someone like Joe Smith or Fabricio Oberto or one of the Collins brothers but who can contribute at a similar (or higher) level. They don’t even have to play for the Wizards – the Knicks at one point called Joe Crawford up from the D-Fenders last season. It’s not just whether teams assign players to the D-League that determines how well they “use it.”
Ridiculous Upside, where we treat press releases with the respect and reverence they deserve.
by Jon L on Aug 17, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you all
for the fascinating insight and expertise.
by MR on Aug 17, 2009 8:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What About Atlantic City?
We can share with Philly and blog about the mob influence on the team.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
by Truth About It on Aug 20, 2009 1:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Team name: The Odds
When we send our young Wizzies down to gain experience, they’ll be the Wizards of Odds.
Or instead of AC, how about Delaware, now that they are going to start taking sports bets?
by yop32 on Aug 20, 2009 7:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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