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How the Wizards can use the lower-than-expected 2010 cap projection to their advantage

So by now you have all probably heard about the NBA issuing a memo to teams telling them to expect a significantly lower salary cap and luxury tax level in 2010/11 (that's next year, not this year).  The numbers aren't pretty, as the cap could fall to as low as $50.4 million, with the luxury tax coming in at $61.2 million.  The Wizards currently have just under $56 million committed to 10 players in 2010/11, including Randy Foye's and Dominic McGuire's qualifying offers.  All this is a long way of saying that it's going to be virtually impossible for the Wizards to get under the projected 2010/11 tax level and still keep Brendan Haywood and even one of Foye/Mike Miller.  As weird as it sounds, it probably will be much harder to stay competitive and be under the tax in 2010/11 than it will be to eliminating the impending $6 million tax bill we're going to spend this season.

That's bad news, right?  Yes, but it doesn't have to be if the Wizards shift priorities.  Remember, while the Wizards are in a tough spot if they want to get under the tax, so are a number of other teams in the league.  If you thought the cost-cutting moves made on draft day were drastic, just wait until this year's trade deadline, when everyone and their mother is going to look to sell just to get under that projected tax number.  It's a perfect time for the Wizards to become buyers and really go all-in for a title run, because great players are going to be available for peanuts. 

To review: After the Foye/Miller trade, which actually cut salary for 2009/10, the Wizards have $26 million of 2010 expiring contracts.  $20 million of those contracts (Miller, Foye, Haywood) can actually significantly help a team, which adds even more value there.  They also have all of their top young prospects left, though Andray Blatche and JaVale McGee probably aren't going anywhere with the lack of depth up front.  That combination of assets is enough to bring in pretty much anyone the Wizards want.  If they don't bring anyone in, it will be because they aren't looking to spend, not because the pacakge isn't attractive enough.

Basically, I'm suggesting that the Wizards do whatever they can to limit this year's tax bill so that they will have a better opportunity to go way over in 2010/11 and acquire a big time upgrade to their roster for basically nothing. 

Star-divide

Before I explain the particulars of this plan, I need to spell out a couple fundamental assumptions that are the basis of this proposal.

1.  The Wizards will not become true title contenders unless they go over the luxury tax: It doesn't matter that there have been teams that have won titles while staying under the tax.  The fact of the matter is, the Wizards are not built like those teams.  They don't have their best player on a rookie contract (Dwayne Wade).  They don't have the two best players in the league on their team (Kobe and Shaq).  They don't have Tim Duncan and the superior management of the Spurs.  They aren't catching lightning in a bottle like the 2004 Pistons (who, it should be noted, had their best player, Chauncey Billups, on an MLE contract). 

No, the Wizards have three building blocks who don't have outrageous contract, but are still not bargains.  Gilbert Arenas, when healthy, is worth $111 million, but he's still not underpaid.  Neither is Antawn Jamison, who may actually be slightly overpaid because of his age and lack of defense.  There's nothing wrong with overpaying your core guys, because it's not like you can just pick out another better player and sign him for the $111 million Gilbert got in 2008, but it does mean you have to spend to win.  The presence of several poor contracts among role players (DeShawn, Mike James, etc.), as well as the lack of marquee rookies on rookie deals, means the Wizards need to spend to win. Unless you think the team as currently constructed is a title contender.

2.  Abe Pollin doesn't want two straight huge luxury tax bills: It's not clear how valuable Abe Pollin is, but I'm pretty sure he won't want to pay two straight tax bills of over $5 million to the league office.  If he's going to pay one tax bill to win a title, it's better to do it during a climate where adding salary in the form of better players is easier to do. 

All that said, how do we shave $6 million off our current payroll (which in reality is more like $8 million to account for the cost of a veteran-minimum of low-level exception big man?  There are a couple ways to do so, but we have to jump on them right now.

One is to make a trade with a team under the salary cap right now.  Teams don't need to match salary in trades if they are under the cap.  Currently, the following teams are under the $57.7 million cap.

Atlanta: Slightly less than $54 million for 10 players, including Marvin Williams' $7.355 million qualifying offer

Detroit: About $53 million for 10 players

Memphis: About $47 million for 10 players with the Zach Randolph trade

Oklahoma City: About 48 million for 14 players

Portland: About 47 million for 10 players

Sacramento: About 50 million for 10 players, not including Ike Diogu's qualifying offer

Those are all options to pawn off DeShawn Stevenson (if we're really lucky), for example, or someone like Javaris Crittenton or Nick Young.  For example, Stevenson to Memphis for a conditional second-round pick might work if Memphis doesn't sign Allen Iverson.  That would save us Stevenson's salary and we'd just sell the second-round pick anywy.  Crittenton to Sacramento for a conditional pick might also work, saving us $1.2 million or so for Crittenton's salary.  Oklahoma City might also be interested in Crittenton for their cap space.  It sucks to lose a player for nothing, but Crittenton and, to a certain extent, Nick Young weren't going to play much anyway this year, so the extra tax savings are worth it.

The other alternative is to trade to a team that has a trade exception.  What's a trade exception, you ask?  Anytime that salaries don't match up in a trade for whatever reason (whether it's through the 125% for 100% rule, or whether you trade into a team's cap space), the team that's short ends up with a trade exception which they can use to acquire a single player under contract elsewhere to "complete" the trade.  Teams can do this for up to a year, otherwise the exception expires.  A further explanation is here from Larry Coon's salary cap FAQ.

Here's a list of traded player exceptions for more than $1 million currently exist, along with the date it expires and where they come from.  (Courtesy of Wyn's comprehensive salary page).

Untitled_image_medium

(Note: That list doesn't include the $7 million exception Orlando just got by inserting itself into the Shawn Marion sign and trade).

One of the rules of a trade exception is that it's not the 125% rule, it's the 100% + $100,000 rule.  What does that mean?  The player traded can only make $100,000 more or less than the value of the exception.  Here are the players on the roster than make $100,000 more or less than any of these exceptions:

  • Mike Miller ($9.8 million) for the first Denver exception (which expires in days, so it's basically useless)
  • DeShawn Stevenson (3.8 million) for the Sacramento exception
  • Andray Blatche (3 million) for the Portland Ike Diogu exception
  • Nick Young (1.7 million) for Chicago's Cedric Simmons exception
  • JaVale McGee (1.5 million) for the Houston exception from Rafer Alston
  • Javaris Crittenton (1.47 million) for Houston's, New York's and maybe Orlando's exceptions (Keith Bogans)

So those are all options as well.  There may also be more trade exceptions that pop up in the next year or so that we could take advantage of. 

That isn't going to shave off $8 million dollars, unfortunately, but it could get us close.  Close may be good enough considering the following windfalls Abe Pollin has.

  • $2.5 million for selling the DeJuan Blair pick (and you could argue the $750,000 from selling the Bill Walker pick last year)
  • $2.9 million for being under the luxury tax this year (and you could argue, as morethesamewiz did, that this is more like $10.3 million for being under the tax the last four years, though undoubtedly not all of that money is accesible right now)
  • $6.8 million from the NBA's escrow system, as detailed in this True Hoop post (HT: cuppettcj).  Basically, a portion of player salaries are set aside for the league to tally up how much players made as a percentage of basketball-related income.  Normally, the players get money back because the league is profiting, but this year, since the league lost money, the owners actually get that money.  (It should be noted that, if this holds to form and the NBA keeps losing money, the owners will likely get even more money back in 2010/11).

That doesn't give the Wizards free reign to go $11.2 million dollars over this year's luxury tax, but it does give Abe flexibility where the Wizards can shave some more money off this year's payroll and still have some left over to act as a buffer if they need to go well over the tax next year to make the necessary upgrade to build a title contender.  The Wizards will also likely be more profitable next year with a good team, which means home playoff games and more merchandise sales.  The Wizards were right in the middle of the NBA franchise rankings on Forbes in 2008 (15th), and while they undoubtedly took a hit last year, they'll probably climb back to the middle of the pack this season.  We don't know the Wizards' specific financial situation beyond that Forbes summary, but they should be able to take the hit without too heavy a loss.

So, as an option, let's say the Wizards dump Stevenson on Memphis for a conditional pick and then trade Crittenton to the Knicks for their exception.  Or, the Wizards dump Stevenson and trade Nick Young to the Bulls for their exception.  Those moves save the Wizards $5.3 and $5.5 million, respectively.  We then replace those slots with a veterans minimum big ($1.3 million) and a D-leaguer (~$500,000), leaving two spots open in case of injuries.  Our roster is as follows:

PG: Arenas/James/Critt?

SG: Miller/Foye/Young?

SF: Butler/McGuire

PF: Jamison/Blatche/D-Leaguer

C: Haywood/Vet min guy/McGee

That team's just as good as the one we have and it costs around $4 million less.  Then, we use our assets to make a big move and really become a title contender in 2010.

The alternative is to still try to skirt the lower 2010/11 luxury tax, but we're not going to make much of a talent upgrade doing that.  We're going to have to try to make yet another unbelievably creative move like the Foye/Miller trade that somehow improves the team and cuts salary.  It won't be a move that makes any more than a marginal difference, increasing the celing of our current 45-50 win team to maybe 47-52 wins.  And that's best-case scenario.  The other thing that could happen is we lose Brendan Haywood, Mike Miller and Randy Foye and replace them with inferior players.  That's not progress at all.

No, at a certain point, to become a real title contender, we have to take on some long-term salary and go into the luxury tax.  The next year provides some great opportunities to do that without surrendering much on-court talent.  If we're willing to take the tax hit, we can really take advantage.  And if we continue to cut some costs here and there creatively to shave off our current tax bill, we'll be better equipped to go over the tax next year when we really can make the most of doing that.

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i don't really want to give up on young.

and to a certain extent critt but, if we can deal stevenson i would be ok with it although he plays hard for us he might not crack the roatation to much this year

by wizchamp on Jul 9, 2009 12:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice post

I just hope our front office has a plan similar to something like that because it seems plausable. Stay under the tax, put out a competitive team this year, and load up next year. Prolly the best case scenario possible.

by Team Serbia on Jul 9, 2009 12:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't necessarily buy your second assumption

Without knowing more about the Wiz’s finances, there’s no real reason to believe that our tax position this year affects how willing we are to spend next year. There’s nothing “magic” about the tax line, from an overall club profitability standpoint (acknowledging, though, that you have strongly diminishing returns on dollars spent after that point). To make the point even stronger, the tax payments we’ve gotten in the past and the money we got in the trade are useful and directionally relevant, but money’s money. The increase in ticket prices enabled by the ’04-05 run is just as meaningful.

That said, it doesn’t obviate your more important point: that by being buyers in the next 12 months we can get great bargains. I’m just saying there’s no reason to assume that we need to be saving money now to make that happen. If we can do things to reduce salary that don’t make us worse we should do that, but that’s always the case.

by RamVA on Jul 9, 2009 12:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

One further point

I understand why Abe cares about the tax, and I understand that our understanding of that caring influences what we think he will and won’t do. But, IMO, it shouldn’t influence what we want him to do. I want him to sign Rasho for the MLE (if that’s what it takes) and pay the tax that comes with it, even if I understand why he won’t. If he reduces payroll is he going to reduce ticket prices? If not, why do I care?

Being bargain hunters creates opportunities, sure, but I want my team to spend as much as they can (under the rules) as shrewdly as they can, not to save money.

by RamVA on Jul 9, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great Ideas

I keep forgetting that you don’t have to match salary when trading with a team below the cap.

I have one simple solution to our problem, that you brought up but then dismissed for reasons that escape me.

Mike Miller ($9.8 million) for the first Denver exception (which expires in days, so it’s basically useless)

Why is this useless? That would seem to be perfect. If Ernie acts now, he can get us under the luxury tax threshold completely, even with an LLE vet. Here would be our starting lineup:

Center          Brendan Haywood, LLE Veteran Center
Power Forward   Antawn Jamison, Andray Blatche, JaVale McGee
Small Forward   Caron Butler, Dominic McGuire
Shooting Guard  Randy Foye, Nick Young, DeShawn Stevenson
Point Guard     Gilbert Arenas, Javaris Crittenton
Inactive        Mike James

Then we can try to trade Mike James at the trade deadline for DeSagana Diop straight up, helping the Bobcats get under the salary cap in order to sign a free agent (right now, they are projected to be slightly over the projected salary cap). Why wouldn’t you support this idea?

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 9, 2009 12:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The Nuggets' trade exception expires on July 15

So unless we trade Miller in the next six days, it’s useless. We have to move unbelievably quickly.

(The other thing is that I strongly doubt Denver uses their exception because they don’t want a huge tax bill).

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 9, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your second (parenthetic) point is right on

Denver would do it if they thought Mike Miller would help, but no team needs Mike Miller less than Denver does (save, perhaps, Orlando).

by RamVA on Jul 9, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK

I get that point.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 9, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Basically

I’d support it, but it ain’t happening.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 9, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why Not?

Ernie still has five days to act, and he may have made inquiries or been in contact with Denver already. I mean, your whole scenario of cutting now to splurge later won’t probably happen, but that is no reason to not advocate it. It’s another purpose of blogs, after all.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 9, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Only You

Would list your strongest point as an afterthought in parenthesis. :-)

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 9, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's what happens too often when comments are too "stream of consciousness"

Like mine often tend to be. I’m working on doing better with that.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 9, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trade deadline 2009 - trade ideas

I realize these trades are ALL lopsided in the Wizard’s favor… so before everyone starts in on me that “X team will never go for this” – the assumption here is that by the Trade Deadline this year, lots of teams will be doing anything and everything they can to shed salary before next year’s Luxury Tax drop…..

Let me also preface this with my other assumptions… I didn’t try any trades with teams that have NO problems going over the Tax (LA Lakers, Dallas Mavericks, Cleveland Cavaliers, Boston Celtics, etc….)

Some other teams have left themselves in good position for 2010…. so I didn’t try any trades with them either (Minnesota, New York Knicks, NJ Nets, Oklahoma City, Memphis, etc…)

OK – here we go:

Mike James ($6.4 Million) and Stevenson ($3.9 Million) for Rip Hamilton ($11.4 Million)

Mike James ($6.4 Million) for Jeff Foster ($6.0 Million)

Mike Miller ($9.8 Million ) and Stevenson ($3.9 Million) for Chris Kaman ($10.4 Million) and Eric Gordon ($2.8 Million)
I don’t think the Clippers would go for that trade, but I wouldn’t do it unless Gordon was included.

Mike Miller ($9.8 Million ) and Mike James ($6.4 Million) for Andrei Kirilenko ($16.4 Million) – but only if we find out that Mike Miller can’t play up to his Memphis standard (2006-2008).

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jul 9, 2009 3:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think we can do better than the Detroit deal

Detroit’s begging someone to take Rip off their hands with his awful contract.

The Clippers aren’t going to trade Gordon, I think.

The AK-47 trade is actually interesting. I’d think a lot about that and I think Utah would definitely bite.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 9, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

More on the Detroit deal

The package is more than fair, I just don’t think the Wiz need Rip.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 9, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That Detroit deal

works with Tayshawn Prince too…..

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jul 9, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course

Then you’re paying a bench guy (Prince) $10 Million a year… Assuming that Butler remains the starting SF.

An intriguing line up might be to put Prince at SG against some teams (Gil, Prince, Butler, Jamison & Haywood)… I’ve seen him guard big Shooting Guards before…. Plus he does an OK job on LeBron. I think that he’s a good enough passer (17.1 Assist Ratio) and ball handler to play SG in some lineups. He has a low turn over rate, and he doesn’t foul. Not to mention the fact that he was second team All-Defensive team four years in a row from 2004-2008.

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jul 9, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Prince/Butler starting is the idea, yes

Then, let Miller walk and keep Foye.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 9, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't

see them giving up Prince. Gordon makes Rip expendable, but after decimating their championship team, I think they’ll keep Prince, unless they get equal or better value for him.

by CJHutch on Jul 9, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or unless

They see an opportunity to add a big piece during 2010 Free Agency….

Besides, they just drafted Austin Daye and DaJuan Summers – both Small Forwards….

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jul 9, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The more I think about it

The more I think Detroit would go for it…

If they exercise the options for Aaron Afflalo and Rodney Stuckey in 2010-11 (a good bet) – and if they did the trade at this Trade Deadline to get rid of Prince for the expiring contract of Mike James and filler -(Stevenson) – They would have as much as $8 Million next year to spend on a FA….

OR – if they wanted Foye instead of Stevenson (which is a possibility) they could renounce Foye and gain $4 Million more…

OF course, they could also just ask for Mike Miller straight up for Prince – and get the $10 Mil expiring contract – that way they would still have $12-14 Million to spend for FA.

I think Prince is a possibility

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jul 9, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think detroit would take the deal for rip.

since we have to many guards then we deal rip to chicago is some sort of deal for brad miller. this would soften the blow of gordons loss for them. rip seems like a great fit in chicago plus miller is just what we need.( i think he is also an expiring contract.

by wizchamp on Jul 9, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait a minute?

I remember suggesting a deal for AK47, but someone responded that we would have to deal one of our big 3 to make that work. Is this deal made in the context of Abe Pollin will pay the lux tax one year but not two?

"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck

by George Templeton on Jul 9, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This Deal

Is made in the context that the projected salary cap and luxury tax is much, much lower than anyone here expected. I expect to see a lot more Kwame for Gasol type deals by next year’s trade deadline, as many teams struggle to shed salary. If Abe is willing to pay the tax next season, he should be able to acquire great players without giving up that much talent.

In other words, few thought that teams would be willing to give up players like AK-47 a few months ago. Now I’m willing to be that he gets moved because of that gargantuan salary.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 10, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't you suggest it before the Foye/Miller trade?

Miller gets us closer to AK-47’s salary number and isn’t a totally lopsided trade in terms of talent, whereas before the only players that got close to AK-47’s salary were our Big 3.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 10, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was in the so much for putting that money thread . . .

I said this:

But Andrei Kirilenko in a different city (with a much easier coach to get along with). Asked to do the things he does best, play defense, rebound, block shots and not worry about scoring. I know the contract is bad ($34 million) but he is someone who can tick a lot of boxes that we are looking for.

and Rook said:

It would be almost impossible to trade for him…. Almost certainly requiring at least one of the big-3 JUST to get the contract values even…

He makes $15 Million a year…. If you tried trading Mike James $6.4 Million and DeShawn Stevenson $3.6 Million AND Nick Young $1.7 Million AND JaVaris Crittenton $1.4 Million – that would work, EXCEPT:

1. Utah would be accepting 4 players for 1 – and they don’t have the roster space.
2. Washington would be taking on an additional $2 Million THIS year – with all the Luxury Tax implications
3. Washington would be taking on Kirilenko’s long term contract, and therefore little chance of re-signing Haywood and Butler
4. The Wizards roster would be short on guards (only 3), have only 10 players on the roster – and would require signing at least 3 more players – with all the associated Luxury Tax implications.

"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck

by George Templeton on Jul 10, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh

In that case, you have a legit gripe.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 10, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Luxury Tax takes affect when?

At the end of the season if im correct. This means there is no need to shed salary before the season even starts. IMO the FO did not assemble this team just to trade away pieces straight away. If teams are going to be shedding salary as mentioned in the post then they will be even more eager as the trading deadline looms. But if we get start the season off Eddie Jordan style ( 5-10 games below 500 twenty games in ) then its flipped and we may become sellers . I think EG is trying to maintain whats that word called , Prada get ready for it , Flexibility as we enter this season where we are not sure what type of Wizards team we will see.

by ccrun1800 on Jul 9, 2009 4:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It doesn't take effect until the end of the season

But teams aren’t going to be under the cap during the season, which eliminates that option, and many of those trade exceptions expire soon.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 9, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And remember, we're talking about the 09/10 tax

Which includes our 2010 salaries. So trading for 2010 expirings does nothing to help the 2009/10 tax number.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 9, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your right Trade Exceptions

are out the window if we wait till the trading deadline. I just dont see EG shipping off one of our players that he decided to acquire just to cut wages unless the season is going poorly. Waiting eliminates options for sure but I believe , or maybe I hope is better , that the FO is in the business of winning. Yeah the wizards are not an extravagant team throwing there MLE around at any and all FA’s but I have to hope as a fan that they aren’t cheap skates either that are going to cut salary and run at the first hint of trouble.

by ccrun1800 on Jul 9, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think

that this new LuxTax outlook is going to cause a lot of teams to rethink the big 2010 FA bonanza, just as you alluded to. If we could get Prince for that pittance, I’d love to do it. I just don’t see Detroit doing it. But hey, you never know. Kwame Brown was traded for two all stars, right?

by CJHutch on Jul 9, 2009 4:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Depends on what Detroit thinks they can get in return from a 2010 FA

If they trade Prince for expiring contracts -and if Dumars is careful about what he does the rest of this off-season (not taking on additional long term contracts, etc…) – Detroit could be a player in the 2010 FA market – when a lot of other teams will have withdrawn due to the lower Cap…

Detroit could have as much as $12-14 Million to lure a top name FA…. Much more if they can find a taker for Rip Hamilton as well, before the Trade Deadline this year.

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jul 9, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah but

how appealing are they gonna be to a big name FA if they have a stripped down roster?

by CJHutch on Jul 9, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dunno - that's not a stripped down roster

Ben Gordon, Charlie V, Rodney Stuckey, Jason Maxiell
Plus they’ve got a pretty good perimeter defender in Aaron Afflalo

And if I’m a 2010 FA – I gotta know that Joe Dumars knows how to build a team….

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jul 9, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe

not stripped down exactly, but not really contention material. Prince is the most versatile player they have. He’s probably their best defender, a good rebounder, and can get you 20 points in a pinch.

Anyway, I don’t know exactly why I’m arguing with you on this. Like I said, I’d love to get Prince for that pittance. And while I’m not particularly fond of beanpoles, he’d no doubt be one of our 3 or 4 best players. Maybe THAT’S why I don’t see it happening. Cuz we’d be lucky as hell to get him for next to nothing.

by CJHutch on Jul 9, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I actually

like Mihm better than some of the other options. He’s one of the biggest bodies out there, and I recall him being mildly productive early on with the Lakers. He could provide some useful fouls against Shaq and Dwight.

by CJHutch on Jul 9, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd take him

if he’s healthy. Better than Wilcox etc.

by MR on Jul 9, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Couple of questions:

I know this thread is more about the concrete future based on salaries and luxury tax. How much emphasis is on McGee this season. It probably isn’t realistic to think he can make the jump from 19-20 yr old to competent Tyson Chandler type player, but if he were to make strides this season, would that make Haywood expendable and therefore help alleviate some of the salary issues.

Also the Juan Carlos Navarro trade: Do we still have that conditional trade from Memphis? I know it doesn’t come up as an option until next year(?). Can those conditional draft picks be traded?

Your meme here.

by Natepyatt on Jul 9, 2009 7:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

McGee won't be ready next year

I believe in the kid, but he won’t be starting center for a contender in ’10-11.

IIRC, Memphis got their pick back from us in the Daniels/James/Critt trade.

by RamV on Jul 9, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No - we don't have that pick any more

We traded that back to Memphis in a 3-way deal with New Orleans. NO got Antonio Daniels from Washington, Memphis got the pick back from Washington, and Washington got Javaris Crittenton.from Memphis.

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jul 9, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In hindsight

That doesn’t sound like that great of a trade for the Wiz.

If that was the cost, I’d like to keep Crittendon at least through the summer and maybe through the all-star break and see if he plays his way into a more valuable trade commodity.

The thing with McGee. Next year, would be a crazy leap. But how can the Wiz hedge their bets with both Haywood and McGee. You don’t want to sign Haywood for 3-4 yrs and then have him sit the bench for 2 years because he’s got a contract nobody wants. I like Haywood, but I really worry that the Wiz are going to pay him more than he’s worth.

Your meme here.

by Natepyatt on Jul 9, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Memphis isn't

making the playoffs anytime soon so that pick would have just been a 2012 2nd rounder or whatever it was.

Back to that Pistons deal… I would love to get Tayshaun. I think he would be great as the “SG” on offense and perimeter defender on the other end. He can handle, shoot the 3 adequately, pass, and plays very good defense.

Prince + Maxiell + Afflalo for Miller, Deshawn + Critt works and if they deny that I would need to think harder about this but Miller, Deshawn + Blatche works too.

They get a stop gap SF ahead of Daye and Summers and have the option to re-sign Miller next year for cheaper, get a young, cheap PF/C who could be better than Charlie V in a year, and save long-term money.

We get a perfect compliment to our big 4 (Miller would be ideal if he had Prince’s defensive skills), a young, tough backup PF for about the same money we were paying Song and a decent young SG who is basically filler. If we have to add Blatche, we sign a C like Rasho/Magloire and run with that.

by Mr. E on Jul 9, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we could get Prince without throwing in Blatche

Considering that Detroit could become a FA player if they deal Prince or Rip for cap relief. Miller and Critt for Prince might be enough. They can’t really think that Charlie V and BG are their big play back to title contention.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 9, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait, maybe I misread you

If you’re suggesting Prince/Maxiell/Afflalo for Miller/DeShawn/Blatche, then that’s a different story.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 9, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

is there a

petition going around for this trade? Where do I sign? That would be a helluva coup.

by CJHutch on Jul 10, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would love to have Prince

But I wonder if Detroit would bite on that trade. Right now Prince is their most valuable commodity (skills-wise) and I don’t see the Pistons dropping Prince for the players we’d give up. I know Detroit is trying to shed salary and rebuild – but it’s Detroit and they have some angry fans that want a good team to take the floor.

Your meme here.

by Natepyatt on Jul 9, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How much confidence does everyone have in Ernie?

As I read through Mike’s very detailed article, which played out a million scenerios, it made me wonder if Ernie spends a fraction of the time trying to work out a deal. Since the Caron trade, Ernie’s most significant free agents signings have been Darius(now traded) and Stevenson(someone the team wishes they could trade). Other than this year’s deal, he hasn’t made one significant trade in the past 3-4 years. I remember the summer Kobe was on the trading block and Garnett was traded. Did Ernie ever bother to pick up the phone and get the conversation with either team by offering Gilbert? Granted, in the end, maybe that wasnt happening but at least you give fans a feeling there’s an attempt to get better. I’m sure there’s plenty we dont know but given the limited activity of the past 3-4 years you cant help but wonder if another gm would have been more creative and made moves to get this team to the next level.

by wizfan2247 on Jul 10, 2009 8:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

While I

am loathe to begrudge Grunfeld since he’s the first actual GM the WIZARDS have ever had, and the only one in the organization in the last 3 decades, I do believe his “we have the right pieces” mantra has gotten old. Once, fine. Maybe twice if you’re on the cusp of something. But if you make it to the 2nd round once, then take a step back every year after, it’s time for an upgrade, if not an overhaul.

by CJHutch on Jul 10, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm Torn

Part of me agrees with you, part of me says lets give the Big 3 another chance to stay healthy. We have never really seen what the Big 3 can do when healthy in the playoffs. The closest we came was in 2005-06, when we lost to LeBron’s Cavaliers in 6 games, and it took all of his 7 steps on every drive to the hoop to beat us. But that wasn’t the whole story. Ivan Carter of the Washington Post reported later that year that Caron Butler was still severely hampered by a late-season thumb injury:

Butler revealed that the thumb injury he had late last season was worse than he or the team acknowledged. After hurting the thumb against Boston on April 5, Butler missed five games — all losses — but he returned to help the Wizards end the regular season on a three-game winning streak. At the time, Butler and the team called the injury a thumb “sprain.” In fact, Butler said he broke a bone in the thumb, which is on his shooting hand.

“I didn’t want anyone knowing how bad it was because then guys would have been hacking at it every chance they got,” said Butler, who estimated that the thumb was between 60 and 70 percent strength for the playoff series against Cleveland. “It’s better now, though.” . . .

That was Butler’s first season with the team. The next season, the Wizards were 27-17 in late January, the best record in the Eastern Conference. We had just beaten what would turn out to be the best team in the Eastern Conference at the end of the season, the Detroit Pistons, two times in a row on both our home court and theirs. But then Jamison got hurt in the second Pistons game and would be out the whole month of February. When we finally got him back in early March, Butler broke his wrist and Arenas blew out his knee. We haven’t seen all three guys 100% healthy since.

But going into this season, there is a strong possibility that all three will be 100% healthy, just like they were when they stood on top of the Eastern Conference in January of 2007. The difference is that instead of Michael Ruffin and Arvis Hayes as our go-to bench guys, we will have guys like Randy Foye and Dominic McGuire. Instead of Eddie Jordan’s all-offense and no-defense coaching, we have Flip Saunders, who has proven he can be just as good an offensive coach as Jordan without sacrificing solid to sometimes really good defense.

But then again, you can’t always wait on guys to get healthy if they never get healthy. If we suffer another major injury to one of our Big 3 again this season, I will be firmly in your camp to advocate blowing this team’s core up and rebuilding around our best pieces.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 10, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe the worst thing that's happened to this team.....

in the past 3 years was being in first around the all star break of the 06-07 season. That was pretty much the last time the ‘big 3" was healthy and we cling to that memory as a reason to keep them together, thinking if they can just stay healthy we can contend. Maybe the truth is we’ll never return to those days. Given that he missed most of last season and free agents are getting far less now than last year, signing Gilbert as opposed to trying to trade him will end up being the “dagger”, as Buck likes to say, of this franchise for several years.

by wizfan2247 on Jul 10, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OR

Maybe we have not yet seen the best that the Big-3 can provide. Perhaps the 06-07 season was just a “taste”…

Maybe, like cuppettcj suggests, with an upgraded SG, a deeper bench, a better Coaching staff, and some luck in the health department – we’ll see what these guys can really do.

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jul 10, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's more than just a three-man team

And it’s so easy to say we should have “traded” Gilbert, but who are you getting back that makes any sense? Nobody was going to trade for him; it was either sign him or lose him for nothing. And as mentioned so many times, you can’t just take Gilbert’s $111 million and give it to somebody else under the NBA’s cap rules, not to mention that even if you could, there isn’t anyone out there who could be acquired reasonably that’s as good as Gilbert.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 10, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously
cling to that memory as a reason to keep them together,

No, what we “cling” to is knowing that we have 3 all-star caliber players, one of which is a potential top 5-10 NBA talent. We have demonstrable evidence that they can mesh together.

It’s not like we’re looking at 07-08 and saying ‘look we have a playoff team, let’s just trade Arenas for Mason and we’re all set’. THAT run was based on timing, luck, chemistry, and everyone playing over their heads as well as some probably-non-repeatable career years. THAT team did NOT have the talent to move further.

My optimism is based on the TALENT LEVEL that we have, not the record in 2006.

by MR on Jul 10, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can see both sides of the argument

On the one hand, that 2006/07 team wasn’t nearly as good as the record suggests. Their point differential was basically even. They were great offensively, but absolutely pitiful defensively. Gilbert Arenas was never going to shoot as well as he did in December of 2006. They were winning pretty much every close game they played in, and were playing close games no matter the opponent. The rest of the East was really, really down, because Wade was hurt, Boston was dreadful, Orlando had awful coaching, Detroit was adjusting to missing Ben Wallace and Chicago overplayed their hand. Injuries or not, that team was heading for a fall later in the year.

However, the flip side is that the Wizards are better top to bottom than the 06/07 team. They have a better coach. They have way more depth (that 06/07 team gave key minutes to Arvis Hayes, Calvin Booth, Michael Ruffin and Etan Thomas). They actually have some young talent. They have a (hopefully) more well-rounded Caron Butler. They have no silly fights that prevent Haywood from getting the minutes he deserves. The only real difference is Arenas — we don’t know how good he’ll be.

So, it’s tough. I guess the best answer to this question is that it doesn’t make a team any better to give away its good players. We’ve seen many teams just slowly get better by improving on the edges and then making that one final push. Cleveland’s a great example of this. So is Orlando. We just have to take advantage of our opportunity to make the final move when we get it.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 10, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Depth is not just relegated to the bench

The Wizards have upgraded their entire roster, top to bottom. Where they had DeShawn Stevenson starting at SG in 2006-07, they now have either Foye or Miller – a definite upgrade.

If we suffer another major injury to one of our Big 3 again this season,

There’s where this team is better equipped. If an injury does occur (knock wood), there are competent players at all the back-up positions. If AJ gets hurt, Blatche can step in. If Arenas goes down, Foye is certainly a competent (if not All-Star quality) replacement. Sure, the team will lose something, but it’s not like bringing in Calvin Booth to sub for Haywood.

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jul 10, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Depends on When it Happens

If one of the Big 3 suffers an injury early in the season, then what you said makes sense. Our backups at most positions (not counting the center position) are good enough for this team to at least tread water until we get that guy back. But if it happens late in the season again, then we will miss another opportunity to do any damage in the playoffs. I won’t be able to stomach that again this season and then simply say, “maybe we will be healthy next season.” Nope, at a certain point, even Ernie has to recognize that his window is closing and he needs to do something to change the status quo.

Flip can do things that will help us stay healthier, too, IMO. I don’t think anyone has fully explored what correlation there is between playing your star players 40+ minutes every game and what injuries develop to those players during that timeframe. If Flip scales back our Big 3’s minutes per game to the lower 30’s, I think we stand a much better chance of keeping those guys healthy for our stretch run in April.

Needless to say, I have a lot of hope and optimism riding on this upcoming season. But I sense the Curse of Les Bullez hanging over my head like the Sword of Damocles. Please, God, not again. Give us one healthy season with our Big 3 to see what we can actually do without speculating.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 10, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Flip will have a luxury that Eddie Jordan didn't really have

A fully developed, ready to contribute bench.

It’s a lot easier to play your stars 33-35 minutes a night when you can bring in competent players off the bench to give them rest…. But when you have Jarvis Hayes, Calvin Booth, Michael Ruffin and 2 Rookies who still only have to shave every third day as your main bench guys, you got a problem. It’s understandable why Eddie Jordan played his stars 40 minutes a night.

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jul 10, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The roster is DEFINITELY better...

but there are, as we have all agreed, numerous rather nasty “ifs” attached…

Looking at the Prince deal suggested above:

It now looks like the Mavs and Pistons are looking at a Rip for Damp deal, which would take care of the really awful hole at center for Detroit, and suggests that Prince is probably off the table for the near term. It also suggests that the Mavs are not disinclined to play Nowitzki as a nominal 5 surrounded by Marion and Howard, with Rip a very logical two guard to complement Kidd and Terry off the bench.

That could work to a degree in the West, provided that neither Oden nor Bynum become more dominant centers than they are now… Nowitzki’s offense can carry his defensive issues with the Duncans and Nenes.

Meanwhile, back in the East, regardless of who will be the hub of their offense, the East contenders are obviously all bulking up inside to deal with the realities of Shaq and Howard…. the Celtics brought in Sheed, the Bulls are looking at Boozer playing next to Miller, the Hawks re-signed Zaza, and so on.

Only Toronto seems to be rolling the dice with the “mobility option” that a Bosh-Bargnani-Turk front line represents. Phully gets Brand back but Dalambert’s contract is toxic so they are just going to have to light a candle and pray that he holds up under Eddie’s gentle prodding.

This set of deveopments IMO makes it all the more likely that the Wizards will be signing a true 5 to back up Brendan… putting us back in Rasho country (with Heytfelt as a possible last inexpensive big piece or Foyle as an experienced option).

This is not terrible, and it does leave lots of options to look at both in February and next summer.

by khrabb on Jul 10, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Link to the Rip/Damp stuff?

Again, I strongly doubt Dallas moves Dampier because of that contract. Certainly not for someone like Rip.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 10, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nevermind, I found it

It’s a Hoopsworld story that SI aggregated. It’s written by Bill Ingram, the same guy who said Antawn Jamison was a good defender when talking up an Amare trade.

I give him zero credibility.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 10, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's also just speculation

There’s no inside material there, no sources quoted. It’s just something out of Bill Ingram’s head. Which I don’t trust because he thinks Antawn Jamison is a good defender.

I also don’t trust Hoopsworld very much.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 10, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sigh...

in other words not much to write about today, so allegedly credible sites wind up giving credibility to pure rumor-mongers….

I have to get new batteries for my BS-meter, thx Mike.

by khrabb on Jul 10, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There were trades possibilities, I just doubt Ernie was creative or aggressive enough to make them.

The summer Gilbert had one year left on his deal. Minnesota was traded Garnett and the Lakers were supposedly trying to trade Kobe. I’d at least like to know Ernie looked into those scenerios but based on his activity the past few years I doubt it. I just think tying up so much money for so many years on a player who has not shown the leadership or ability to stay healthy was a bad idea. I’d rather have the cap space at this point. Don’t get me wrong, I’m hopeful for the season. I’m a season ticket holder, eagerly awaiting the start of the season but it would be nice to see this team do something more dynamic instead of hoping that for once the big 3 can stay healthy for an entire season

by wizfan2247 on Jul 10, 2009 11:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The summer Gilbert had one year left on his deal. Minnesota was traded Garnett and the Lakers were supposedly trying to trade Kobe.

If I remember correctly, there was a potential Gil for Kobe offer out there. It was also the summer Gil was coming off a knee injury, so I’m pretty sure the Lakers squashed it.

I just think tying up so much money for so many years on a player who has not shown the leadership or ability to stay healthy was a bad idea. I’d rather have the cap space at this point.

The Wizards don’t get any cap space by letting Gilbert walk. They only would have gotten room under the luxury tax. There’s more about that here. Basically, the only way the Wizards could have received any cap space was to let both Arenas and Jamison walk for nothing. No team is going to let their two best players leave without receiving anything in return.

it would be nice to see this team do something more dynamic instead of hoping that for once the big 3 can stay healthy for an entire season

Teams don’t get better by letting their core go; they get better by surrounding their core with better players. Ernie’s been doing that. I agree that he could go even further than he has, but I think it’s unfair to argue he isn’t trying. He’s got a tough situation with the team’s finances to deal with (although you could say, as I have, that he put himself in that spot).

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 10, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Simple question

Since the Caron trade, are you satisfied with the job Ernie has done? At some point, you have to say the current plan, which for the wiz is a healthy big 3, isn’t working and we need to make a change. I don’t know if a big move would definetely make this team better but, to some degree, it couldn’t make them worse. I know the team use to be a laughing stock, but making the playoffs in a league where more than half the teams make it can no longer be a cause for celebration. It seems this year especially there is a ton of activity and teams r far more willing to move star players. It’s hard to imagine ernie couldn’t have done something that made more of an impact other than bringing in randy foye and renting mike miller for one year. A guy like Mcdyess would have been perfect for this club. Fine, he’s not worth 10-12 with the luxary tax penalty. But, why not at least explore dumping guys like james and stevenson to those who can absorb their salaries and create a bit more space to make it a bit less painful to sign an impact free agent. Like I said, it goes back to how creative is Ernie being.

by wizfan2247 on Jul 10, 2009 12:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

But

Why dump James now, when his expiring contract will be that much more valuable at the Trade Deadline in February…

There’s such a thing as being short sighted… There are folks in Dallas that are screaming to get rid of Dampier – but as Mike Prada has pointed out, it would be a huge mistake.

Same thing applies here. Why trade Mike James (or Mike Miller, or Randy Foye, or any other expiring contract) NOW, when those contracts will be like gold in February.

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jul 10, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh

And if you have a suggestion where to “dump” James or Stevenson to “those who can absorb their salaries” – let’s hear the specific trade scenarios… Remember, just because Portland has Cap space, doesn’t mean that they would want DeShawn Stevenson. Just because Memphis is way under the Luxury Tax, and has the means to take on the contract, does not mean that Mike James has any value to them.

It takes TWO teams to make a trade work…

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jul 10, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry about the caustic tone...

Didn’t realize it sounded so harsh – until I re-read it…

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jul 10, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think they're exploring

And if they aren’t, then they should.

Although James is expiring, so he’s a commodity because of the 2010 bonanza. Stevenson, on the other hand…

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 10, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's been said

a few times here, but the big thing for us is to keep everyone in the lower to mid 30 minutes range. Obviously health is a major reason, but there is also the issue of getting tired, and therefor lazy. We have trouble closing out games because our big guns are worn. They start taking jumpshots, don’t go after rebounds, move their hands and not their feet on defense – it’s all a result of playing too many minutes. The “top 5 in minutes played” that Jamison gets is looked at as an accolade. Me, I feel it’s either the sign of a bad coach or a bad team, or some mixture of the two.
 
Basically, I think with our newfound depth, as long as we manage it right, it should improve this team leaps and bounds. And not just in the easily noticeable ways. I think fresher legs could mean a better commitment to defense for our players challenged in that department. Face it, all 3 of those guys play a ton of minutes. If they get tired, what end are they gonna slack on? Not offense.

The other thing our depth could provide us, is wearing out the other team. With Howard this won’t work, but we could easily nullify Shaq/Illgauskus, Rasheed/Perkins/, Boozer/Miller(?), etc, if we RUN. We really have the horses to do it now, in waves. If we don’t acquire a useful big man, then this is the obvious method to counteract our size deficiency. I know everyone is worried about us playing “small ball”, but we really don’t have to. Once Blatche and McGee go in for AJ and Brendan, we are taller AND faster. Then it doesn’t matter who you plug into the other spots. They can all run.

Look at me, I’m walking down the path of optimism again.

by CJHutch on Jul 10, 2009 2:35 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I think you're right on with this

Improved depth should mean an improved Big 3.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jul 10, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great points

We must have the deepest backcourt in the league.

by MR on Jul 10, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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