My First Trade Idea - Foye, Stevenson, James for Diop, Bell
by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2009 1:13 PM EDT
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PrintThis FanPost is my first idea on what kind of deal Ernie might have up his sleeve to account for the salary situation next season. In case you haven't read what this situation is all about, check out this post and the replies to it. In a nutshell, this trade is mostly about three things: obtaining a serviceable backup center to play behind Haywood, getting value for either Mike Miller or Randy Foye before one of them walks away in free agency, and maintaining enough salary space under the luxury tax threshold so that we can still resign Brendan Haywood in the 2010 offseason.
When looking for a big man, I had the following criteria: he should be able to play solid defense, he should be able to rebound, he should be big enough to protect the paint against some of the league's bigger centers, and he should not make more than $7 million per season because of our salary situation next offseason. One of the first names that jumped out to me that met all of this criteria was DeSagana Diop. DeSagana Diop has been known for his defensive and rebounding ability in the past. When he was 24 years old, Avery Johnson promoted him to starting center over Erik Dampier and Diop rewarded Johnson by playing superb defensive basketball in route to the Mavericks NBA Finals appearance. Since then, I'm not really sure what happened, but he apparently fell out of favor in Dallas and wound up being traded to the Bobcats only a few months after signing a five year deal for the full Mid-Level Exception.
Checking out his statistics at basketball-reference, Diop appears to be playing the same kind of basketball he always has. In 41 games for the Bobcats after the trade, he averaged 7 points, 9.6 rebounds (including 4.3 offensive rebounds), 1.2 assists, 1 steal, and 1.9 blocks per 36 minutes while only turning the ball over 1.7 times. Most of those numbers are actually better than the ones he averaged during his breakout season in 2005-06. Here is what fellow SB Nation blogger David Arnott from the Bobcats blog Rufus on Fire had to say about Diop this past April:
DIOP -- He's a lovely backup center, especially on a team where everyone else off the bench is an offense-minded player. It's not his fault, but he's the symbol of this team's profligacy, because he's getting paid many millions of dollars to be a backup.
Paying a backup center millions of dollars may not make much sense for a midling team without direction. But on a team with championship aspirations, I don't think his MLE salary is that dreadful. Assuming we resign Haywood for around $10 million per season and Mike Miller for around $7 million per season, then Diop would only be the 6th highest paid player on the team.
So here is my trade proposal: Randy Foye, DeShawn Stevenson, and Mike James to the Charlotte Bobcats for DeSagana Diop and Raja Bell. This trade will work once the trade restriction expires on Randy Foye on August 24th, according to RealGM's Trade Checker.
Why Charlotte Does This Trade
Charlotte has a two major reasons to participate in this trade. First of all, they have a chance to invest in what could be their shooting guard of the future in Randy Foye, who is still very young with a lot of potential. His contract would expire next season like Bell's, but unlike Bell the Bobcats will be able to make a qualifying offer to Foye and have the right to match any contract he gets in free agency. With DJ Augustin already locked in and ready to go, the Bobcats will be able to build around a young and talented backcourt that will help them gain respect around the league.
The second major reason the Bobcats do this trade is because they have the opportunity to rid themselves of Diop's contract, which runs through 2012-13 at a very high cost to a franchise looking to rebuild. I would personally think that for this reason alone, Michael Jordan would be willing to take on DeShawn Stevenson, despite his questionable back situation. DeShawn's contract would save the Bobcats $2.3 million in 2010-11, and would then expire, saving Charlotte close to $7 million per season for two seasons after that.
There is one more interesting tidbit about the value of this trade for Charlotte. In the comments section of the same post from Rufus on Fire above, it appears that David Arnott is a bit enamored with a certain DeShawn Stevenson. Keep in mind that these comments were made in April, after DeShawn's back injury:
Deshawn Stevenson
Please. Please tell me why in the last year I’ve been reading your articles that you have consistently favored Deshawn Stevenson so much?
...
by L'O
In short, Stevenson is younger, a lot cheaper, plays credible point guard for short stretches, has a wider variety of offensive skills, and I think he’s going into the stretch of his career where Raja was with the Suns. But, of course, the most important part of that would be cost. Even if you think Raja’s slightly better, it’s just over $5.00M vs. just under $4.00M. Every time you find equivalent (or IMO, better) talent for cheaper, and the other team will let you have it, you should do it, because it’s another step toward having the money to (re)sign a truly dominant player.
Or keeping the team in town.
by David Arnott
One wonders if Michael Jordan would agree with this.
Why Washington Does This Trade
In case my posts in the other thread didn't make this clear enough, allow me to restate the advantages. We obtain a big (7'0 300lbs), solid backup center that can easily give us 20 minutes per game of solid defense and rebounding. We get a player with loads of playoff experience, that was once the starting center on a team that played in the NBA Finals. We get a player that has experience matching up with dominant centers like Shaquille O'Neal. We get insurance in case Brendan is temporarily injured. We get the backup center we are looking for.
We also get the services of Raja Bell for one season, who is a career 41.1% three point shooter and a defensive specialist on the perimeter. He could mentor Nick Young for one season and get Nick ready for the responsibility of taking over at the backup shooting guard position in 2010-11. He could really help us in the playoffs next season, with lots of experience being there with the Suns.
In addition, we save ourselves $2.6 million dollars this season, which saves Abe $5.2 million when you factor in the luxury tax. We rid ourselves of DeShawn's contract that will help us pay for Diop's salary in 2010-11. We leave enough room under the luxury tax threshold in 2010-11 to resign Haywood at about $10 million per season. We then still have enough room under the luxury tax threshold to offer Mike Miller around $7 million per season to stay with us, assuming that the threshold is exactly $70 million. That's more than the MLE, which is hopefully all the other teams would be willing to offer him.
And lastly, it would make CJHutch very happy, because he seems to have an extreme dislike for DeShawn Stevenson.
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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Nice, fair offer, cuppett!
I think this has a very realistic chance of happening for sure. Diop’s contract is pretty bad long term, but realistically, I don’t think we’re going to get anyone better unless we spend the full MLE anyway.
I’m a little wary of throwing Foye into the deal, since I think he’s a better fit as a sixth man than Nick Young because he has a more diverse skill set, but it may be necessary to get Charlotte to bite. I don’t think they’d want to do it if it was Young instead of Foye.
My concern is we’re suddenly really, really thin at point guard. All we have is Gil and Critt. I’m not sure what to do about this unless we take Foye out of the deal and throw Young in instead, but I don’t think that’s going to be enough to get Charlotte to bite.
Here’s our depth chart:
PG: Arenas, Critt
SG: Miller, Bell, Young
SF: Butler, McGuire
PF: Jamison, Blatche
C: Haywood, Diop, McGee
That’s a solid eight-man rotation (Arenas, Miller, Butler, Jamison, Haywood, Bell, Blatche, Diop), with McGee and Young waiting in the wings. I still think it’d be best if we could move Bell for a point guard. Maybe the Bobcats would prefer giving Raymond Felton back? Felton’s a goner because of Augustin, I would think. Of course, that also doesn’t save us money.
In terms of the parameters this organization has given, I think this is really creative and a pretty good trade, all things considering.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
PG Situation
I actually thought about that. But then I figured two things:
- I really like Critt’s potential and would like to see him get a lot of minutes at backup PG to develop.
- James stinks, DeShawn is not a very good point guard, and Foye is much worse as a PG than he is as a SG.
If we need an extra PG, we would need to look for one anyway, because of the deficiencies of DeShawn, James, and Foye at that position. (In the case of James, his deficiencies at any position.) I looked at the success of Dee Brown last season, and I figure we can always pick up someone like him (or maybe even get him back) on a cheap, unguaranteed contract if we really need an emergency point guard.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Success of Dee Brown?
What success??? I was rooting for the guy, but you can’t say his tenure was a success. Watching him reminded me of losing a battle for the starting PG spot to a younger guy in my senior year of high school. The guy was just more talented than me and there was nothing I could do about it. That’s how Dee looked in every game.
I think we learned last year that both point guard and center depth is useful. I like Diop as a player for this year’s team, and like unloading Stevenson. The problem is Diop’s contract. It’s not terrible this year for the reasons you’ve provided, but it would eventually come back and bite the organization. That is, unless we don’t resign Haywood next year (who I have a sneaking suspicion is going to demand much more than he’s worth). Actually…the more I think about Brendan’s pending free agency the more I like this deal. Still, I don’t think it’s worth the downgrade at the 1 and 2 for the upgrade at 5 over a veteran-minimum type player this year. I still think Foye is a great addition to the team. Interesting proposition though!
Sixth Man
I’m a little wary of throwing Foye into the deal, since I think he’s a better fit as a sixth man than Nick Young because he has a more diverse skill set…
Agree 100%. But remember, we can’t keep both Miller and Foye for 2010-11 because of our closeness to the luxury tax threshold that season. They are both going to generate a lot of interest in the free agent market during a summer where lots of teams will have cap space. Foye is the more logical to trade, since Miller at shooting guard is a better fit with Gilbert and Foye is not a very good point guard. Also, Foye has more value in a trade because of his youth and potential. By trading Foye now, we get to lock in our backup center for years to come, which is better than watching our talented sixth man leave in free agency when we are unable to match the offer he gets.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Felton Instead of Bell
I still think it’d be best if we could move Bell for a point guard. Maybe the Bobcats would prefer giving Raymond Felton back? Felton’s a goner because of Augustin, I would think. Of course, that also doesn’t save us money.
Felton is a restricted free agent, isn’t he? Unless he accepts the Bobcats qualifying offer, I don’t think we should look to acquire him. Remember, we have no room to work with on salary space for 2010-11. This deal needs to be for an expiring contract that walks after next season. I have no plans on keeping Raja Bell, unless Abe wants to pony up the luxury tax for another season. If Nick Young is not ready to be at least the backup shooting guard by then, then we need to make another move to get one for his salary.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Yeah
Like I said, Felton makes more sense, but he’s not going to save money like Bell does.
I suppose we could just trade for him on his qualifying offer and let him go after the season, but then he has the right to veto any trade.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Is it possible that back up point guard is getting too much consideration? If Arenas misses significant time again this season, you have to blow the team up and start over, right?
by les boulez bomber on Jul 3, 2009 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
How Does That Work?
I suppose we could just trade for him on his qualifying offer and let him go after the season, but then he has the right to veto any trade.
This is the season he has a qualifying offer for. According to this news, the Bobcats have already made that offer, which makes him a restricted free agent this offseason. So I’m not sure if the Bobcats can even trade him. And even if they could, suppose another team offers him a long term deal? We couldn’t afford to match that offer, because we couldn’t afford any salary of his for 2010-11.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
If he doesn't get a new contract with anyone this offseason, he takes the QO
Like Ben Gordon did this year.
The problem is that, if that happens, Felton can’t be traded without his consent.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Thanks For the Clarification
I’ve always been a little fuzzy with the details of restricted free agency.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
you know a lot more
about the cap ramifications than I do, but if we DID make this trade, couldn’t we still use one of our exceptions on another point (or combo) guard? Since we currently have 252 guards on our team, I haven’t found it necessary to see who’s out there, but I would imagine it would be easier to find a quality guard in FA than a quality big man.
It Depends on Abe
This trade saves Abe $5.2 million this upcoming season – $2.6 million in salary and $2.6 million in luxury tax payments. I figure that he’ll be willing to spend about $1 million ($500K times two) on an emergency point guard, but beyond that it depends on him. We are still in the luxury tax after this trade.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
I Had a Feeling
You would like it because of that.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
No sir, I don't like it.
Giving up the most talented player (Foye) and taking the worst contract back (Diop, even if he does fit a need, its not THAT great and would block McGee), no thanks. Also, I’m with the blogger above that Bell = DSteve, not that I particularly like either player at this point in their careers.
The Washington Wizards: providing career scoring nights for unknown opposing bench players since 2004.
Bell Just Makes the Contracts Work in the Trade
Giving up the most talented player (Foye) and taking the worst contract back (Diop, even if he does fit a need, its not THAT great and would block McGee), no thanks.
Diop is not a terrible contract for a championship team. There are lots of clubs that pay their backup big men that much money. That’s what the MLE is for when you are a championship contending team. Again, he would make less money than all four of the five starters this season (only slightly more than Brendan this season), and less than all five starters next season. His contract would not be more than he’s worth, IMO. Talented big men draw big salaries in the NBA; that is the reality. Wishing we could have someone for his production but cheaper is pretty much a pipe-dream. Diop would give us more production for more years than either McDyess or Rasheed, and would do so for not much more money than what either of them would cost. Not to mention the fact that McDyess and Wallace are free agents, so signing them does not help us rid contracts for 2010-11, which we must do to resign Haywood and Miller.
Everybody seems to forget that we have to move either Miller or Foye before the trade deadline or we lose one of them after next season for no compensation. I agree that Foye is talented. So wouldn’t it make sense to trade him while he can still net us some compensation? Otherwise, we would just be renting him for one season, unless we let Miller walk and offered Foye the $7 million instead. Miller is the better fit at SG, IMO, so that doesn’t make sense to me.
Also, I’m with the blogger above that Bell = DSteve, not that I particularly like either player at this point in their careers.
I’m not doing the trade because of Bell’s production, but because his contract expires and so we don’t have to worry about his contract blocking the resigning of Miller and Haywood, like DSteve would. Besides, Bell is better than DSteve if for no other reason than we are more confident Bell would be healthy and play. With DSteve’s back condition, that’s not a sure thing for him.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Correction
Not to mention the fact that McDyess and Wallace are free agents, so signing them does not help us rid contracts for 2010-11, which we must do to resign Haywood and Miller.
If we do not make a trade, and if we don’t sign any big man making more than $2.3 million for 2010-11, then we can still resign Miller and Haywood for the same salaries I think we’ll need to offer them to keep them. But can you think of any free agent big man that would be more productive than Diop who would make (or only want to make in free agency) $2.3 million in 2010-11? I’d like to hear your idea if you think you can.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
About McGee
Diop, even if he does fit a need, its not THAT great and would block McGee
Diop is a big, burly, and very capable defensive big. I like McGee’s potential, but let’s face it, he is absolutely horrible on the defensive end. He is too skinny to hold his ground against any starting center in the NBA that I can think of. He bites on every pump fake. He never boxes anyone out. He is constantly out of position and he constantly misses his assignments on defensive rotations. He would have never played more than garbage minutes last season were it not for all of the injuries, Eddie Jordan explicity said this. He needs a lot more training and practice before he is ready to be in the regular rotation. As much as you wish he is more ready, the fact is he is certainly not. Diop would not block McGee any more than whatever other big Ernie ends up getting, I’m pretty confident of that.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
And
I’d rather have Diop blocking McGee, than Mikki Moore or Sean May.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Word
And blocking McGee shouldn’t be a concern — why reduce your own team’s talent to make playing time for a guy? He’s still going to practice and work out. If he gets better he’ll get more playing time, not the other way around.
so with that in mind and ernie saying they are only looking for 8-10m backup, does that mean:
he plans another trade
BH will play 38-40min per game every game this season
by les boulez bomber on Jul 3, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
No, That Means That This Trade Probably Won't Happen
Unless Ernie is blowing smoke and mirrors, or hasn’t thought of this trade possibility yet. The only other possibility is that Ernie foresees JaVale McGee splitting the backup minutes with the veteran he brings in. This doesn’t make much sense to me, not only because I don’t think JaVale is ready for that many minutes but also because I foresee JaVale as a better option at power forward than at center.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
I agree- the kids need to earn their time, become professional and improve. BH is a perfect example: 30 years old and still no go-to move.
Pampered waste of talent. Solid but no desire to be great.
by les boulez bomber on Jul 4, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe he has no "go to" move
because he’s been practicing and concentrating on becoming an excellent one-on-one and help defender…!!!
Maybe, just Maybe – Haywood knows his limitations and strengths… That he’ll never be able to perfect the dream shake or the sky hook; so instead he concentrated on things he could do… play defense…
He has, after all, worked very hard at the parts of his game that were weaknesses (turn overs, free throw shooting, etc…)
Not every player has the talent to be great…. some only have their desire, and work ethic – and that makes them, at their best, “solid”.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
oh boy
I’ve learned that you catch fire around here for taking shots at Haywood. I’m not his biggest fan, but I’m not saying ANYTHING bad about him this season. If we lose him we’ll definitely be watching the bouncing balls again next May.
However…
Pampered waste of talent. Solid but no desire to be great.
This I DON’T agree with. While I may not be a big fan of Haywood I have no problem with his work ethic. Pampered? I don’t think he’s pampered anymore than the rest of the NBA. And (sorry to all the Haywood fans) “great” is not in him. He DOESN’T have the talent. Not to be great. What he has is the size and bulk,and he’s worked hard enough to become a legit NBA center. There are plenty of guys with that same size and bulk who haven’t reached his level. Solid? I’ll take it. Especially considering our current dilemna.
That might be the most ridiculous thng I have ever read on this site
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Hey, wait a minute
You said the same thing about one of my posts last week….. (grin)
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
the thing is
Giving up the most talented player (Foye) and taking the worst contract back
we are going to have to do something along these lines. Nobody wants Stevenson or James. We will have to sweeten the pot to get rid of Stevenson AND get a useful big man in return.
you can not get past the conference semifinals without interior defense. I don’t care how good you are on the perimeter.
by les boulez bomber on Jul 4, 2009 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions
A backup big man + Stevenson is gone =
An enthusiastic yes!
Well done cupp. I think if we are looking for third PG maybe we can find it in summer league or for the LLE. Diop is an effective defense center in this league and has the kind of size this team will need against Howard, Shaq and Kendrick Perkins.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Jul 3, 2009 4:00 PM EDT reply actions
If Charlotte likes Stevenson...
Would they just trade us Bell and Nazr Mohammed for him and James? I’d take that deal in a second. It makes the team better, solves the frontcourt depth issue, and clears up $4 million for next year.
I still can't
wrap my head around this statement
Charlotte likes Stevenson…
Jordan may be the worst GM player evaluator out there.
Keep in Mind
Jordan has never said or hinted at that. David Arnott of Rufus on Fire (a Charlotte Bobcats SB Nation blog) said he likes Stevenson as a younger, better version of Raja Bell. One can only hope that Jordan feels the same way, or even if he doesn’t would be willing to take on Stevenson in exchange for getting Foye and unloading Diop’s salary.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
boy, you
sure know how to burst a guy’s bubble. Couldn’t you let me go to sleep, even for one night, thinking Jordan had man-love for Stevenson? I guess I miread the post. I thought Arnott was a voice of authority. Hearing he’s simply a fan of Stevenson just tells me he’s demented.
Oh how I long for the day that Deshawn’s ‘You can’t see me’ wave is for real.
Also Keep in Mind
That when I thought through this trade, I envisioned DeShawn as more of a liability to be overcome than an asset to receive value for. I don’t dislike DeShawn, but his injury situation is worrisome and his 2010-11 salary is big enough to allow us to resign both Haywood and Miller if it is dumped. Charlotte should be willing to take DeShawn in order to dump Diop and get Foye.
So Jordan doesn’t have to have “man love” for Stevenson in order to trade for him. Then again, he did have some sort of love for Kwame Brown, so having “man love” for Stevenson probably is not out of the question.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
this is just a great trade idea. charlotte is loaded inside and needs perimeter players. we, unfortunately, are just the opposite.
by les boulez bomber on Jul 4, 2009 1:49 AM EDT reply actions
Yep
That’s a great point that I forgot to mention. Charlotte has three guys that can play the center position besides Diop – Okafor, Mohammed, and a young prospect in Alexis Ajinca. And in an emergency, Diaw can play center. They are really stacked up front, which is why I figure that they wouldn’t mind unloading Diop and his huge contract. I’m actually surprised they acquired him to begin with. I guess Jordan figured you can never have to many competent bigs. He hasn’t exactly been the model of good judgment as a GM.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
you can never have to many competent bigs.
Is that the opposite of the Wizard’s thinking? – You can never have too many competent Guards
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I Guess Abe Felt
That after Michael Jordan’s reign, it was best to hire a guy who has the exact opposite priorities.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
My Numbers Are Wrong
We leave enough room under the luxury tax threshold in 2010-11 to resign Haywood at about $10 million per season. We then still have enough room under the luxury tax threshold to offer Mike Miller around $7 million per season to stay with us, assuming that the threshold is exactly $70 million.
This is incorrect. I was looking at the ShamSports total salary for 2010-11 and thought that it included qualifying offers to Foye and McGuire. It did not. So in reality, if the Wizards did this trade, they would not have enough room under the luxury tax threshold to resign either Miller or Foye, so I don’t think this trade has any chance of happening after all.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Not Necessarily
The Wizards still need to dump a salary around $4 million. DeShawn’s makes the most sense. Just don’t expect anyone coming back for his salary.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Who Has a Salary Past This Season, That Is
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
We know you feel this way
You don’t need to keep saying it. It gets repetitive and annoying after a while.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
If he's healthy
I think he can make a small but valuable contribution to a team. Looks like we’re suddenly deep at his position, however. Imagine him back with Orlando. That’s a good fit.
I’m referring to Stevenson, not CJHutch.
by MR on Jul 6, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, remember that while Haywood may sign for 10 million annually
His first year will be for much less than that.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
That Helps
But it still wouldn’t make room for someone like Diop, assuming I’m correct about Miller or Foye wanting around $7 million per season. If Brendan’s first year salary is only $8.5 million and Miller/Foye’s first year is only $5.5 million, then that still leaves us only $3.2 million for a big (assuming we still trade Stevenson and the threshold is exactly $70 million). If we make no more trades and sign no more players, we would still have $70.8 million for 2010-11 assuming the deals for Brendan and Miller/Foye. Ugh.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
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