With Yao and TMac out, Houston's season is a lost cause. Furthermore, they'll have an eye toward 2010 free agency if they can shave a little more salary. Also, they just signed Ariza to a long term deal which creates a log jam at SF. With that the case, I think they'd be open to a Battier trade. Battier is 31 and won't be in his prime by the time Houston manages to rebuild.
I'd love to add Battier to our roster. We're still a bit overweighted on offense and lack quality defenders in our starting lineup. If we could somehow swap Miller for Battier, it would really vault us into "contender" status.
So how do we make it happen?
A simple trade of Miller for Battier plus Brent Barry would work, but I don't think Houston does that. They'd ultimately be just giving Battier away for an expiring contract. They're gonna want more.
What about:
Washington trades: Miller, Stevenson, Young
Houston trades: Battier, Barry, B.Cook
A trade proposal from Real GM regular and BF sometimer nate33 on the Real GM Wiz board. I like it.
This will be today's trade idea.
over 2 years ago
Mike Prada
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I say no.
I don’t think we should trade Young. We would grow to hate that trade more and more over time. I think he has a breakout year, now that he has learned to play off ball.
by Danyon Rome on Jul 24, 2009 12:26 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Even simpler trade
is Mike James ($6.4 Million expiring) for Shane Battier ($6.9 Million, 2-years)
but if you think they’ll want more back, I’d rather keep Mike Miller. I think Miller will be EXACTLY what the Wizards need playing next to Gilbert Arenas – and I think he’ll be relatively cheap to re-sign.
I’m not convinced Randy Foye is right for the Wizards…. and I think he’ll command more to re-sign.
So how about this one:
Mike James ($6.4 Million expiring) + Foye ($3.6 Million + Team Option)
for
Shane Battier ($6.9 Million, 2-years) + Brian Cook ($3.5 Million
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Highlighting the roster imbalances inherent to that trade....
Mike James ($6.4 Million expiring) for Shane Battier ($6.9 Million, 2-years)
but if you think they’ll want more back, I’d rather keep Mike Miller.
Uh, yes, the Rockets are going to want more than Mike James in exchange for Battier. Shaving the extra year off Battier’s contract isn’t worth a trade as lopsided as that, is it?
Either Miller or Foye would be the natural candidates to go in any deal of this sort, and that goes to the fact that they’re basically competing with each other for minutes. Both of them are defensive question marks, at best — really Miller I think is a wrong answer rather than a question at this point. To pull an exchange that brought back a defensive stalwart like Battier? I’d deal either player, willingly, and hope Houston was in the mood to dump salary.
Seriously, if that #5 pick turned into Battier and Foye, I’d start to feel like Rubio… Okay, I’d probably still win up thinking that deal had bit the Wizards in the butt in three years’ time. But it wouldn’t sting as much from Washington’s end.
That trade is basically giving up 3 decent guys for Battier, since Barry and Cook are nothing
AKA: Linix129
But it also saves money
Because we’re dumping Stevenson. We can afford to re-sign both Haywood and Foye cheaply.
It’s as if we traded #5, Songaila, Stevenson and Pech for Battier, Foye and cap relief. Win-win for me.
To respond to Rook: I’d rather keep Foye than Young, but if you feel otherwise, your proposal works. I’d still rather find a way to dump Stevenson on them, and if it’s Young that gets it done, then so be it.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Agreed
I’d like to try to keep Young if possible….. and Miller has a huge expiring contract ($9.8 Million) that might be a very good trade chip in February (even though I think he’s gonna be perfect in this new Wizard’s Offense).
Thoughts:
Miller’s expiring contract will be worth more in February than Battier.
I really don’t want to give up on Young – we’ve seen some improvement, and I’d like to see if it continues.
If you want to dump Stevenson, perhaps this trade would work:
Mike James ($6.4 Million expiring) + Stevenson ($3.9 Million, 2-years) + Foye ($3.6 Million + Team Option)
for
Shane Battier ($6.9 Million, 2-years) + Brent Barry ($2 Million expiring) + Brian Cook ($3.5 Million expiring)
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Essentially that replaces Miller for James and Young for Foye
I guess I’d prefer that, but I’d like to hold onto Foye too.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
hmm...
You’d like to hold on to Foye – I’d like to hold on to Young… and I don’t see Houston doing a deal without at least one of those players in it…
I guess my preference to keep Young over Foye is that I’ve seen a lot of Young, and not much of Foye. Maybe I’ll change my mind once I see what Foye can do for the team….. But for once, I’d love for the Wizards to have a prototypical Shooting Guard (6’6" – 6’7", athletic, good shooter, long arms, good perimeter defender, great off screens or on catch-and-shoot, etc…) And I can envision Young getting there… but I don’t see Foye getting there.
I guess I miss Phil Chenier
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
You may be right.
As I’ve said, I have not seen Foye play much… so I have very little actual data to go on except stats and some old youtube footage….
On the other hand, I’ve watched Young since the Wizards drafted him. Watched him in his first Summer League games – first Training Camp – first exhibition games – all the way through his second year. We’ve watched goofy Dom-i-Nick vlogs; suffered through bad nicknames (bean burrito) and worse hair cuts (the Rooster). So I have some emotional capital invested in Nick Young. Contrary to some other folks, I DO see improvement in Nick Young’s game. I see a more confident player; a more consistent player. I see a player trying to learn how to come off screens. I see a player that put in a much higher effort level on defense the second half of last year. Obviously, I also see his flaws (can’t or won’t pass, doesn’t rebound much, tends to go one-on-one too much)… But I’m really excited to see what Nick can do in the same back-court as Gilbert Arenas.
So – perhaps you’re right. Maybe after I see Foye play; after he really becomes a “Wizard”, after he puts up 30 points or says something funny in an interview; Maybe then I’ll be able to divest some of my holdings in Nick and re-invest them in Randy.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I agree
at this point I like Young more than Foye. It’s not an underestimation of Foye. It’s just that, like Rook said, it’d be nice to have an NBA-sized shooting guard for once.
As for the trade itself, if we somehow wrung Battier out of James, Stevenson, and Foye (or Miller) I would do back flips from here to Ernie’s house and give him a big fat kiss er, uh, man hug.
but
you were the same guy who didn’t know who Foye was after we traded for him.
Why not wait and see how he plays?
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
I share your desire to see Nick blossom
But if we’re in win-now mode he’s expendable. He’s not going to get the minutes, especially if we get another guy that’s going to crack the rotation.
Because
Of the way our salary is structured. We have committed major dollars to the Big 3 for the next 2 seasons. After that Ernie will reevaluate this team, or lose his job. Either way, if this team can’t get the job done, or get close, then it will get blown up. Ernie has pushed all of his chips forward. It’s now or never (meaning now or until we can rebuild around a new core).
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
DeShawn Stevenson helps you get a championship?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
If he was on the Lakers, maybe :)
I see it this: Miller can be used for two positions (SG and SF) so we really get one player for the price of two. Steveson is run-down, yes, but is giving up his contract and Miller worth Battier?
Battier can be used for SG and SF too
He essentially played SG for the Rockets during their playoff run (they started him and Artest together).
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I think that was why the D in Houston was so good
Two dynamite defensive studs are way more effective than one. You know what’s going to happen if Battier comes here: “Hey Shane, guard Kobe for 40 minutes straight so Gil and Antawn can be fresh on offense.” Or, “James is killing us in the paint; Shane: can you keep for from scoring for about eight straight possesions?”
Unless Flip & Co. get on their butts consistently, the rest will get lazy and rely on Battier to bail them out on defense.
so you
just cross your fingers and hope that, all at once, our non defensers become defenders? No, I think if you can improve your team, you do it. Period. Battier would be more valuable to us than Miller 10 times out of 10. That’s not a knock on Miller, it’s just a fact.
Unless Flip & Co. get on their butts consistently, the rest will get lazy and rely on Battier to bail them out on defense.
Also, this could go the other way. There’s just as much chance that Battier’s dedication inspires them to play defense themselves.
Agreed
I’ve never heard of a team acquiring an elite defender and the rest of the team’s players becoming worse on d. In fact, it’s usually the opposite. At the same time, even if we did acquire Battier and used him as a crutch, what would be so bad about that? Gil’s never been a good defender, and he’s now most likely incapable of playing good defense due to his knee, so a Battier type would make a lot of sense on this team.
As far as Lebron, I actually don’t see Battier doing that much better a job than Caron Butler, since he just lacks the physicality to match up with him when he’s driving to the basket. Artest and Kobe are the only guys I’ve ever seen truly neutralize Lebron.
by pantslessyoda1 on Jul 24, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I would really feel sorry
for any player going from last year’s Wizards team to next year’s Rockets.
That’s just deja-vu all over again.
Especially if they're only going to be in the league for another year or two
What a horrible way to end a career.
by pantslessyoda1 on Jul 24, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not a big fan
of getting rid of someone before playing him unless its obvious that he’s trade bait. Are we saying Miller’s trade bait now?
Also, if we did (luck out and) get Battier, what does that do to the Butler/Jamison/Taser Forward Dynamic?
Battier would play shooting guard I'd think
We’re basically sacrificing offense for defense.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
And on this team
I’m fine with that.
That would give you one very good interior defender (Haywood) and one very good perimeter defender (Battier) – and 3 explosive scorers (Arenas, Butler and Jamison).
According to 82games,
All Championship teams have had at least one premier defensive player (All NBA Defensive 1st or 2nd Team) – in one of the preceding four seasons…. No NBA team has won a championship without a Top 5 player (All NBA 1st team) or Top 5 defender (All NBA Defensive 1st team) in one of the preceding four seasons
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
If you're talking 2004-05 season
Ben Wallace was All NBA Defensive 1st team
Tayshawn Prince was All NBA Defensive 2nd Team
Chauncey Billups was All NBA Defensive 2nd Team
Here’s the link
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
If you're talking about the 2003-04 season
The Season the Pistons won the Championship… it was
Ben Wallace was All NBA Defensive 1st team
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Right now our offense is
Arenas (who’s shaky b/c we don’t know how much he’s recovered)
Jamison (who on the wrong side of 30)
Butler (who’s a 3rd/4th banana scoring-wise)
Essentially three shooters who occassionally drive to the hole. Anything we get in the post is gravy. Our Bench (NY, Blatche, et al.,) isn’t exactly consistent. If we can give up some less reliable offense for Battier, fine; let’s do it. But not a guy we’ll need when one of the Big Three gets hurt (this is the NBA, it’s inevitable).
I'm Insulted
You just called my favorite player and one of the best 3 men in the league 3rd/ 4!!!!!! banana. On any given night Caron can carry the scoring load(which he has had to do for about 2 years now). You’re obviously nuts.
Yeah Caron is a 2nd or 3rd option
But definitely not a number 1; we saw him struggle with that role last year. Just not quite good enough of a one-on-one player. But he’s an all-star and a 20 ppg scorer, so he has shown he can easily be a number 2 guy.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jul 26, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Not Fair
But definitely not a number 1; we saw him struggle with that role last year.
Not saying I disagree with you, but I want more evidence then last season. There were a whole lot of things wrong with the Wizards last season, and it is unfair to hold Butler accountable for that mess. He was seeing an incredible amount of double-teams and was asked to expend a lot of energy on defense to make up for the weaknesses on that end. He was also asked to play yet another season averaging over 38 minutes a game, further draining his energy in the 4th quarter.
Caron looked pretty darn good as a #1 option in 2007-08. The jury is still out on him as a #1, but I wouldn’t use all of the things wrong last season as basis for dismissing Caron as a #1 option quite yet.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
You misunderstood my comment
I never said he was our number one or had a problem with him being seen as the 3rd scroring option (with Gil, and Twan not many wouldnt). It was just the way the guy worded it seemed insulting. Understand?
I think we should see what Miller can do too.
I see Battier as the calibre of player we should be going after at mid-year, when Houston will very likely be in a clear the decks mode and we will have a clearer idea where we stand on Young vs Foye, Miller’s ability to fit in, the Dray-JVM same space issue and so on.
^ Good point
Perhaps a Battier trade makes more sense mid-season. And while I proposed this trade, I’m not 100% sold on it either. I like the notion of swapping Miller for Battier, but I’m uncomfortable giving up Young in the process and I don’t think Houston would do it straight up.
Ideally, we make it a 3-way where we trade Miller for Battier + Barry; and Miller goes to a 3rd team who sends expiring contracts plus a pick/prospect to Houston. The problem is that most teams who would be willing to sacrifice assets on a one-year rental like Miller are already in contention, which renders their pick undesirable.
The one team I came up with was New Orleans:
Miller to New Orleans; R.Butler + A.Daniels + pick to Houston; Battier + Barry to Washington. (Maybe we also send our 2nd round pick to Houston.)
OTOH
If Houston is completely out of it by Mid-year, they will probably be looking to shed salary….
Unless they think Tracy McGrady can help them, my feeling is they’ll let him walk at the end of the year.
Yao Ming has a player option for 2010-11
Tracy McGrady’s contract ($22M) expires at the end of the 2009-10 season
Luis Scola’s contract ($3M) expires at the end of the 2009-10 season
They’ve got some good young players to rebuild around (Trevor Ariza, Aaron Brooks, Kyle Lowry, Carl Landry, Chase Budinger)
If they trade Battier for an expiring contract, they could re-tool relatively quickly. They would be under the Salary Cap by about 12 Million…. enough to get one very good piece (or two)…
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
If they got Bosh or Amare
They’d be in a really good position. Either could play center or at power forward next to Yao, and they still have one of the best sets of supporting players, hustle men, and three-point shooters in the league. If they then re-sign TMac on the cheap or something, they would actually be looking pretty good.
By the way, am I the only person who thinks AI might actually make sense in Houston next year? Even without Yao and Artest, they’ve still got a decent defense, they just need someone who can create a shot.
by pantslessyoda1 on Jul 24, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Important trade
Let the ideas flow. I think all discussion is good, for a few reasons.
Firstly, we now are in a position to make better trades.
Secondly, Nearly our entire team has something to offer in the positive.
Thirdly, we are certainly moving up as one of the seriously contending teams in the east.
In summarization:
With someone like Battier coming to Washington we would be easily in the top 3 teams. We already have
a.) a healthy team (Arenas most importantly)
b.) removed weak links
c.) made good trades Miller, Foyce, Oberto & potentially Battier.
d.) Upgraded couching/etc (Flip & Cassell, great additions)
For us to completely step it up, I think we need to remove James, Taser & Stevenson. I see nothing coming from any of these players. You can love Taser all you want as a person but the guy isnt offering anything substantial to our team. I think all three of these players are going to need to go. If somehow we maintain everything going on here and w/o foregoing to many of these assets but acquiring ALL FOUR players Miller, Foye, Oberto & Battier im claiming number 2 team in the east behind Boston and top 5 teams in the ENTIRE NBA league. Yes I said it, the entire NBA. I just dont know what we can do to get Battier and keep the good players. Anyways im excited as hell for the new season, I hope I get the games in Richmond since im moving out from Fairfax.
I agree with all of that
EXCEPT – about Taser…. He could be the NEXT Battier; especially if Shane taught him how to study tendencies, improve his footwork and stop going for blocks.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Amen
I think he is the best man defender we have on our team and he should be worked with to made a shut down defender. And (even though he’s a LONG way from it) if he can develop a three point shot, he could satisfy something we’ve been lacking for a while now, which is a player like Battier, Ariza, Pietrus, the lock down perimeter defender/ 3 point shooter
VERY similar body types.
Both 220 lbs, Shane is 6’ 8’’ and Taser is 6’ 9’’. And Taser is probably a slightly better athlete (in terms of quickness and hops anyway). Certainly he has the best chance to be an elite defender out of every player on the roster.
On that note, Butler probably COULD be an elite defender, but given his duties on the offensive end and gambling tendencies, I don’t see the dedication that would be necessary. Of course, if Pierce can do it, then Butler should be able to also.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jul 26, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I Agree With Both of You
McGuire is not a good defender yet. The Wizards last season were actually better defensively when he wasn’t on the floor. It’s possible that he never is as good as his potential might indicate.
OTOH, he is cheap and he has a lot of potential to be a very good defender and rebounder. He is worth keeping around for another couple of seasons because of that, IMO.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
I Like Rook's Second Idea the Best
So how about this one:
Mike James ($6.4 Million expiring) + Foye ($3.6 Million + Team Option)
for
Shane Battier ($6.9 Million, 2-years) + Brian Cook ($3.5 Million)
Starting lineup:
C: Haywood, Oberto, McGee
PF: Jamison, Blatche, Battier
SF: Butler, Battier, McGuire
SG: Miller, Battier, Young
PG: Arenas, Crittenton
Inactive: Cook, Stevenson
I see Battier as a bench player with starter’s minutes in this scenario. He could slide over to multiple positions when the starters come back in so that he can remain in the game. I’m down with this. Battier is very good value for Foye and James’s expiring contract, IMO.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Depends
I don’t suppose they would be willing to do that deal right now… but after they’re 25 games out of the playoff hunt, at the trade deadline? Absolutely.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Although
Doing the deal in August (when Foye can be combined with another player in a trade) – would give Houston a valid starting shooting guard (Foye) – since McGrady is supposed to miss at least the first month of the season.
Chase Buddinger is not ready to be a starter, but I suppose Houston could start Battier or Ariza at SG and hope that McGrady is only gone until late November. But Foye would be the better choice…since they need scoring, and Foye is a proven scorer. That team is going to have trouble scoring the ball, and Foye could help with that. It might keep Houston from falling too far out of the race, until McGrady comes back.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I know this is the rosiest scenario possible
But lets say we did a Battier deal like rook’s second proposal.
Then lets say that Battier becomes the glue guy on both ends of the floor (great defense at one end, clutch outside shooting and ability to move in Saunders offense to help make space for Arenas and Jamison).
Lets say Arenas flashesthe form he showed in those couple of games last season and as a result we are an efficient, even lethal offensive team. Lets say the Wizards go absolute ape droppings right out of the gate (say 25-10) and are most certainly looking like a title conteder by December (when more deals could be made) or Feb./March (when the deals have to be made).
The Wizards would still have Miller’s expiring as a trade chip and we might have one of these big time players who could get dealt to dump salary (Bosh, Amare, whoever) say to their team “Trade me to Washington, I want to go there and possibly win a title this year.”
There that’s my reasoning to do the Battier trade ASAP. Butterfly effects that lead to nothing but happiness and joy in Wizards land.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Jul 27, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Butterfly effects that lead to nothing but happiness and joy in Wizards land.
I love the concept…. but remember that there’s another team involved. I don’t think Houston does any deal involving their projected starting Shooting Guard until they’re out of the Playoff race (read: Trade Deadline in February)…
It would be sweet though…. I’ve always loved Battier’s game. Like you said, he’s a true “glue” player – he makes everyone around him better; and he’s such a good one-on-one defender.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
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