Wiz Need NOWside not UPside
by Jheiser3 on Jul 23, 2009 3:32 PM EDT
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PrintI've read comments regarding this last roster spot, or at least the last one Ernie intends to fill before training camp. I see repeated mentions of the need for more upside. I couldn't disagree more. The last way I want to judge an incoming player is on his potential.
The Wizards currently have JaVale, Blatche, Nick, Crit, Dom and Foye who are all 26 or younger. Most of them are in desperate need of development and attention. Case in point: NY going into his 3rd year in the NBA and just now begrudgingly learning how to come off screens. It continues with the rest of the crew. Now nearly half the roster will include players who were never taught how to play the right way. That means it has to be done here. 4-6 projects is plenty. No need for another, certainly no need for another when the concrete infrastructure for further development is still drying.
All that gets around to my point. This roster doesn't need any more upside (Ridiculous or not). It needs what I called NOWside, instant, veteran, playoff experienced impact. That's what guys like Joe Smith or Fabricio Oberto bring to this team. These aren't going to develop into playoff caliber reserves in 3 years. They are playoff quality reserves right now. There are enough eggs in the "future" basket. This last spot is about NOW, especially given the fact that this player will have to pick the pieces when Blatche and JaVale can't inside.
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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I agree
The Wizards probably have too many projects that they need to produce next year in order for them to be successful like Blatche, McGee, Young, and McGuire so talking about upside with our 5th big is not useful IMO. I actually wouldnt mind switching out one of those four (not McGee though) for someone proven and reliable but keep the rest so that we still have a good outlook for the future.
just now begrudgingly learning how to come off screens
You make it sound as if Nick has had the opportunity, coaching, and system in place to “learn” how to come off screens – when in actuality the previous system was not designed that way, NOR was the previous Coaching staff at all interested in “teaching” (but WERE rather good at carrot and stick). We NEVER saw the kind of double screens, back screens, baseline screens, or pick-and-roll plays (for the shooting guard) from the hybrid Princeton system that Eddie Jordan (and later Ed Tapscott) employed.
Instead, we got the “weave”, followed by isolation after isolation featuring Antawn Jamison or Caron Butler.
Seems to me that Nick has done a pretty good job of absorbing what little Coaching the new regime has had time to give to him – as he looked pretty good coming off screens in Summer League…
It’s very easy to denigrate a player’s lack of a certain skill – except it’s unfair when that skill was never part of the system (at USC or in the Princeton Offense), was never a required skill for the player to learn, and was not taught by the Coaching staff.
I agree with your overall point – that a large part of the roster needs “development” – and I’m looking forward to a Coaching Staff (Saunders, Cassell, Randy Wittman, Don Zierden, et al)…that can actually teach and develop young players. (not to mention draw up effective end of game plays);
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Wes Unseld Jr.
is still here isnt he? I doubt that he’ll be drawing up the end of game plays anymore, hopefully.
You're jumping way too far between the lines
I said he is going into his 3rd year and he’s way behind in his development. He is learning now what I learned in my freshman year of HS ball.
Listen and Read his comments. He says it doesn’t feel right. He doesn’t feel like himself, as if “himself” is an All-NBA player. Himself is just another NBA chucker. He’s a few years away from Ricky Davis status except Ricky started playing defense later in his career. He comments that he guesses he will keep trying it… as if there would be PT for him if he didn’t?
Rook, honestly…you don’t need to go off every time someone says something slightly negative about NY. We all know you love him. Even you know you love him too much.
by MR on Jul 23, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Jheiser3, who are you trying to convince?
I think most everyone agrees we first need a solid backup big who can contribute. Right?
I think the Blair contingent sees that lost opportunity as an “along with” not an “instead of”.
not convince
This started as a side tangent to yet more references to Dejuan Blair and his upside. I’ve seen several posts over the last few weeks about preferring this player or that player because he has upside. I couldn’t think of anything less important for this last roster contract. Forget what this player will be be, what would he give you in a 7 game series that starts tomorrow?
I was referring to Blair's nowside, not his upside
Rebounding translates well to the pros. I believe he could have helped the Wizards right now just as much as a token veteran backup center.
I’m seeing too much of people equating experience with ready-to-playness. There’s a high correlation, but it’s not an absolute correlation. Rookies can come in and be role players right away.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Well
I know that rookies can come in and be role players right away, but with them you cannot guarantee it. With a veteran thats been around you know exactly what they can and will do if they are healthy. With a rookie its just a guessing game for the most part.
I beg
to differ
With a veteran thats been around you know exactly what they can and will do if they are healthy.
First of all, vets get old. Which is why they are released sometimes. Second, and I assume we are talking about Oberto here, the “healthy” tag may not apply to him. We don’t know. Which means, essentially, you’re taking the same risk you would be taking with a rookie. Can he play. Except the rookie is cheaper, AND could last longer with the team.
Well
I wasnt specifically talking about Oberto, I was just talking about veterans in general compared to rookies in general. But anyone can get injured not only veterans.
My mistake
I thought you were referring to Oberto, and I was referring to his health problems last year. They make him an unknown in my book.
OTOH
The “veterans” we’ve been talking about are really the dregs at the bottom of the mud pit….
It’s one thing if you’re talking about Rasho Nesterovic, Drew Gooden or even Chris Wilcox – but the Wizards are waiting (have waited) until all the valuable FA big men have already been resigned….. Leaving them the pick of guys like Oberto (previous heart problems), Magliore (one good year, and nothing since), Mikki Moore (just plain bad), Brian Skinner and Adonal Foyle , ,
Point is, a guy like DeJuan Blair, even right out of College, would give the Wizards more rebounding, energy and defense than ANY of those other guys (with the possible exception of a healthy Oberto)…and that’s WITHOUT counting any upside. Hell, a dead horse could rebound better than Mikki Moore… and provide the Wizards more energy than Magliore.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
but I think the basic point
is that Oberto is probably going to learn the system faster than someone like Blair. He isn’t going to make rookie mistakes like Blair is going to make. And he already has a familiarity with defending NBA centers.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
IF
He’s the 07-08 Oberto – and not a declining 08-09 Oberto…
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
OR
Did the Wizards just waste $1.99 Million (the LLE) on a player that won’t be able to help them this year…. (Plus the $1.99 Million in Tax)
As opposed to a player (Blair) that would have cost roughly $500K (plus $500K Tax), to sit on the end of the bench.
Now I realize that they sold their 2nd round pick for $2.5 Million – so essentially Oberto costs the Wizards only $1.5 Million… but the question is:
Is Oberto worth $500K more than DeJuan Blair? – - – It’s gonna depend on Oberto’s health and Blair’s development…. we have to wait to see.
I would have taken Blair.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
If it matters - Blair actually signed for $900k/yr guaranteed
Just so you can do the math with the right number.
by Manimal Smith on Jul 24, 2009 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Just so you understand why I used $500K
The Spurs didn’t HAVE to offer Blair $900K per year… and I’m not sure why they did. Perhaps they wanted to lock him in for 4-years…..so they agreed to pay him more than the League Minimum for the privilege of tying him up past his first year of Bird FA eligibility.
As a matter of fact, it is much more common for a 2nd round pick to be signed to a 1-year contract (with two 1-year Team Options) for the League Minimum. The League Minimum for a 1st year player is $457,588
The Wizards COULD have signed Blair to a 1-year contract (with up to 2 Team option years) for $457K… That’s what they did with McGuire. (and Andray Blatche – if you recall, Andray sometimes slept and ate at VC – probably because he couldn’t actualy survive on ‘only’ $400K per year – grin)
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
we know
and in any other year you could insert Paul Davis, Chris Richard, or Richard Hendrix into this same conversation.
None of those guys rebounded like Blair did in college
For the last time, not all second-round rookies are created equally.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I get this
but I think the point remains that Oberto still has more experience starting right now than DeJuan Blair. Both you and Prada are right that not all second rounders are created equal. But I think the impetus was to bring in a veteran player who doesn’t need ANY sort of development.
Maybe Blair will be a fast track 15-20 minuted player next year. If so, bad on us. But he will still be prone to rookie mistakes and he, unlike Oberto, has never faced NBA centers. You can’t price experience.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
except
thats not the role we were trying to fill. you’re not wrong just still fixated on fitting a square in the round hole in the roster.
And why would Blair be a square peg?
The Wizards have 3 Centers in Haywood, Blatche and McGee. Haywood can ONLY play Center. Andray Blatche played Center most of last year. McGee is a Center, despite those on this board that want to turn him into a 7’1" Forward…
After they traded Darius Songaila, it leaves the Wizards with the option for only 2 Power Forwards… Jamison, and Blatche.
Another PF would not have been a square peg…. What the Wizards need is another big that can come in with energy. They need someone that can play Defense and rebound. Someone that doesn’t need the ball to score (since Nick Young can do all the scoring for the second unit – grin). I don’t know – but it sounds like a player like Blair fits a need on the Wizard’s roster to me.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
McGee is not a center no matter how many people want to put him there because he is tall. Blatche thinks he is a 2 guard meant to take jump shots off his dribble. Just because Ernie wants a legion of face-up multi-talented bigs doesn’t make any of them Centers. That will be painfully obvious int he playoffs, again.
Why is McGee not a center?
Because he’s not strong? How strong is Marcus Camby?
And why are we even having this discussion again? The 4 and the 5 positions are pretty interchangeable.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
because he can’t hold is ground, can’t keep opposing Bigs from getting to the rim. keep in mind that opposing bigs included guards in the NBA summer league. If he can’t defend back to the basket players then what exactly makes him a center besides his height?
I guess we just define "center" differently
But as for this:
keep in mind that opposing bigs included guards in the NBA summer league.
I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about and I was at every single Summer League game. It’s stuff like this that downgrades your points when you have good ones.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
i know you were there.
and I know what i watched on TV.
I watched opposing guards bump McGee off of rebounds or out of position for boards. the Cleveland game comes to mind because Eyenga made a living inside.
I thought that was more mental that physical
McGee was out of position on defense and didn’t recover quick enough to grab the rebound. I don’t think he was pushed away.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I watched SL too
I didn’t see McGee “pushed” around by any guards…. He certainly didn’t rebound the ball very well… but he’s had a problem with that all last year too.
I think he’s just too athletic for his own good… relying on his pure jumping ability and length to get rebounds – - – - – as a result, he’s never had to learn how to hold position or box out before.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Too Athletic For a Center?
I think he’s just too athletic for his own good… relying on his pure jumping ability and length to get rebounds – – – – – as a result, he’s never had to learn how to hold position or box out before.
All this just lends more credibility to the McGee as a power forward argument. You don’t have to be super-athletic to guard Shaq or Perkins, you just have to be able to hold your position and box out. (You do have to be super-athletic to guard Howard, in addition to being able to hold your ground, which nobody really does that effectively, and McGee won’t stand a chance against for at least the next two seasons.)
Still, if Ernie wants to continue to develop him as a center, I’ll hope for the best. I just won’t expect much. Physical centers are the best at exposing McGee’s most glaring deficiencies on defense. Deficiencies that apparently haven’t gotten any smaller, judging by his summer league performance.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Your arguments
against using McGee as a Center are all based on him guarding someone like Shaq or Perkins… Well, Shaq won’t be here next year… and I doubt there’s another one like him coming along…
The NBA has changed… The days of the huge, bulky back-to-the-basket Center are gone.
Andrea Bargnani (7’0", 250)
Andrew Bogut (7’0", 260)
Al Horford (6’10", 245)
Samuel Dalembert (6’11", 250)
Hasheem Thabeet (7’3", 263)
Brad Miller (7’0", 261)
Those guys are either face up threats, or tall skinny guys. McGee should be perfectly capable of guarding them…
Besides, if we’re just talking about this year, McGee (as the 2nd or 3rd Center on the roster) will be playing mostly against bench players, like Thabeet, Joakim Noah, Alexis Ajinca, Patrick O’Bryant, etc…
On the other hand, I doubt Shaq (7’1", 325) or Perkins (6’10", 280) could keep up with McGee in a fast paced transition game…. So why should we only talk about the defensive problems that McGee may have against those guys… How about talking about the mis-match McGee creates on the Wizard’s offensive end of the floor? Heck, against Shaq, McGee might get 7 or 8 transition dunks per game.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Disagree
The league hasn’t changed that much, and it could always quickly change back if it did. The Lakers won the championship with Bynum and Gasol, essentially two centers (San Antonio won the championship two seasons before that with two centers). JaVale can’t really hold his position against either of them, but he stands a better chance against Gasol. The Magic have Howard and Lewis at the 4/5, and I think McGee could harass Lewis much better than he could hold his own against Howard.
Cleveland has Varejao and Shaq. Varejao is also a physical player, but he is significantly shorter than McGee and doesn’t have nearly as good an offensive game. Boston has Perkins and Garnett. Garnett is a great player, but he relies mostly on turnarounds at this stage, and I honestly think McGee is a better matchup against Garnett than Perkins, who would simply back McGee down very easily.
Of the guys you mentioned, only Bargnani and Thabeet don’t have the bulk and strength to back down McGee, which is exactly what they would do if McGee was on them. Yes, they have face-up games too, but NBA players know to take advantage of their defender’s weaknesses, so they would know exactly what to do if they got the ball in the low post with McGee on them, and it wouldn’t be to attempt a turnaround jumper.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
so were you
MORE impressed with the smaller guys who could muscle themselves into a rebound, or LESS impressed with the taller guy who was muscled out of the way by the “little guy”?
I hope that makes some semblance of sense
I Define "Center"
As someone who can guard opposing centers. McGee can guard almost none of them. With all of McGee’s quickness and athleticism, I would rather see him guarding Rashard Lewis than Dwight Howard. He stands a much better chance of holding his ground on post ups, and his length could really distract Lewis’s shot assuming he stops biting for every pump fake.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Doesn't Camby Have Bad Knees?
If you lack mobility, but still have a lot of height, then center is the best position for you. You aren’t asked to run around on defense and fight through screens, just stand near the paint, take up space, and try to alter interior shots.
Marcus may not be that strong, but he has learned how to defend slow, strong, and lumbering opposing centers more than adequately. McGee hasn’t learned how to guard anybody adequately, but I still contend his best chance would be at power forward. He has the quickness and athleticism to cover Garnett or Rashard Lewis, but I doubt he’ll ever have the strength to hold his ground against Perkins, Shaq, Bynum, Howard, and the like. Again, it looks like Ernie disagrees with this, so I will hope for the best.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
I also disagree with you then
McGee’s still growing into his body and he’s still very young. I bet he gains a lot more strength as he gets older.
When Camby was McGee’s age, he was still at Umass. When he got into the league, he was a softee that was somewhere between power forward and center. Even with the Knicks, he wasn’t really guarding centers well until his second or third season with them.
I personally think asking McGee to guard perimeter players is a disaster. He has poor lateral quickness, so how would he stay with them? Plus, with that wingspan, his long-term potential protecting the rim is scary. Why take that away? We both saw what happened to teams trying to go to the rim in the last two Summer League games. That’s his potential. He just needs better fundamentals.
If you’re talking just about this season, well, Oberto probably does a better job guarding players man-to-man, but I can’t see how moving McGee to power forward long-term makes any sense at all for all the reasons I previously stated. And if you aren’t going to have him guard power forwards long term, why have him do it this year when it stunts his development?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Power Forwards Don't Typically Play on the Perimeter
Which is why the Spurs did not suffer at all when they made Tim Duncan a power forward. He still played close enough to the rim to be an interior force defensively. If anything, McGee has more potential to guard perimeter players than Duncan ever did, IMO.
Plus, as a PF, McGee would have more opportunities to come over as a help defender and alter shots. As a center, opposing teams would typically feed the post and wait for good things to happen. Either McGee would get backed down and give up a gimme, or he would be sucked under the basket so much that he could not recover when the ball got kicked back out or to a cutting guard for a layup.
Again, the tide is against me with this argument, since management and coaching see McGee as a future center. I only wanted to defend my prior opinion, since it was attacked in this thread, and which I still stand behind. Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, and Rasheed Wallace all had the height, wingspan, and bulk to play center, but all spent most of their careers at power forward. Personally, I see a lot more Rasheed and Garnett when I look at McGee than I see an Ilgauskas or Kendrick Perkins. But perhaps that is just me.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Meh
It’s a different NBA than the one when those guys came up. Of the three, only KG plays power forward anymore. And Duncan didn’t really play power forward — San Antonio always had the two center approach rather than the PF and C approach.
You can’t get away with sticking Tim Duncan on a PF anymore, because those guys are increasingly perimeter players.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Right
Of the three, only KG plays power forward anymore.
…
You can’t get away with sticking Tim Duncan on a PF anymore, because those guys are increasingly perimeter players.
Those guys are a lot older now, and therefore a lot less athletic. Yet still Garnett mans the PF position, and does it extremely well. It may have been a different NBA 10 years ago, but both Wallace and Duncan had enough quickness and athleticism in their youth to play at least adequately on the perimeter when they had to. McGee has even more quickness and athleticism than those guys did in their youth, IMO. And even in today’s NBA, most power forwards play near the basket. That hasn’t changed that much.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Another Thing
San Antonio always had the two center approach rather than the PF and C approach.
Good point, but why can’t we take that approach? It worked for them as recently as three seasons ago. The Lakers also utilize this approach, using Bynum at center and Gasol at PF. They won the championship this year with that approach. Is McGee less laterally quick than Gasol? Is there a law against any Wizards team playing big, or is it that this is just how it happens?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
as I've said before
McGee reminds me of a young Marcus Camby more than anything. Which was probably a hybrid, somewhere between PF and center. As for him not having the strength to guard centers – I agree that’s the case right now. But then you also have to say he doesn’t have the strength to guard power forwards. Rasheed, Elton Brand, Duncan, Zach Randolph, etc – those guys would back him down all day. The truth is, there are more “scoring” power forwards in the league right now than “scoring” centers. I would rather have him matched up against a guy whose more likely to set a pick and go for the rebound than someone looking to get the ball in the post all the time. Then he’s more of a help defender, and he’s also in a better position to get the rebound.
Good Points
I hadn’t thought about it this way. Still, I think strength becomes less of an issue on defense when you are guarding post players who are typically a lot shorter than you are. This doesn’t apply to Duncan or Sheed, but does with regard to Brand and Randolph. Actually, Brand is probably not that great of an example for you. Most of his shot attempts are jump shots. McGee could make a living off of altering those turnaround attempts.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
The other thing to consider
If McGee is truly putting on muscle (15 pounds this off-season, now weighing in at 250 pounds; and he’s gained 60 pounds since his Senior year in HS) – and if he continues to pack on the pounds (muscle)… by next year, he’ll be 7’1", 265 – 270
WITH athleticism – - – do we really want to jerk him around from PF to Center to PF and back?
How about letting the kid learn how to play Center…. and allow him to grow into the body needed to play the position? (Like Orlando did with Howard – who was 6’10" 240 when he came into the league….)
Otherwise, you may stunt his growth and development. I’m convinced that is part of Andray Blatch’s problem – switching from PF to Center…. and retarding his development curve.
I’m also afraid that’s what they’ll do to Taser – if they make him into a back-up PF this year.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Sure
If that happens, then great. I just think McGee could be a more dynamic force if played at PF. He would tower over most other PFs the way Duncan does. He would have the opportunity to utilize his short jumper more, which I happen to think is very promising and could be deadly. He would be athletic enough, IMO, to guard a Rashard Lewis or a Chris Bosh, while his lack of strength would be less exposed. It would also enable us to play very big, with Brendan and McGee on the court at the same time! I honestly think that could work really well.
This doesn’t mean that I don’t think McGee can develop into a good center, I just see more of a taller Kevin Garnett in him than I do a Andrew Bynum or Dwight Howard. His game seems to match Garnett’s a lot better, but because he’s a couple of inches taller everyone expects him to be a center, and I would rather think outside of that box.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
this is
Still, I think strength becomes less of an issue on defense when you are guarding post players who are typically a lot shorter than you are.
easy to say, and makes sense, but doesn’t always hold true. Actually, if you have a STRONG PF who is shorter, it is typically harder to guard them in the post. They have a lower center of gravity, making it MUCH easier for them to back the taller player down. Once the defender is under the basket, his height is neutralized. This is how guys like Barkley, Malone, Zach Randolph, Brand, Boozer, etc, etc… have prospered.
As for Brand, he may take a lot of turnarounds, but don’t underestimate his post play. His low post footwork ( a lost art these days), rivals anyone in the league’s short of Duncan.
Do we really need to be concerned because McGee isn't super heavy or strong yet
Most of on-ball post D is about length and effort/technique. If you start bumping them and refusing to concede position from the foul line in, instead of letting them set up shop on the block before you put a forearm into their back, then they will have a tougher time scoring down there. Dwight Howard was lanky and weak as anything when he came in. I doubt McGee will ever be as big/strong as Howard is but he will surely get bigger. If McGee can be smart and gain about 10 lbs a year without losing speed or mobility he will be fine. I am not worried in the slightest about McGee being a center. It will take a little time and coaching till he’s a beast in all facets of Post defense but there is nothing to indicate he can’t be a good post defender. If people are frustrated he’s not a beast now 1 year after being drafted they should remember his slight frame was the only reason we were able to get him where we did.
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 27, 2009 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus
if anyone is built to “win now”, it’s the Spurs. They obviously felt Blair could help them more than Oberto. I hate to keep rehashing this subject, but it seems to get rehashed for me anyway.
Blair didn’t replace Oberto. McDyess and Ratliff did. Oberto is going to replace Duncan.
by MR on Jul 23, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions
confusing
Oberto is going to replace Duncan.
Actually, we don’t know WHO Blair replaced yet. Nor will we until the season starts. I will say this, while it may be unlikely, I wouldn’t rule out Blair guarding other centers. He did it in college, and undersized players have done it all the time in the NBA.
Sorry, joking.
That last part.
But the point is that Oberto was made expendable by Ratliff & McDyess, not by Blair. If they drafted Blair and didn’t sign the other two guys, I would guess that Oberto would still be a Spur.
by MR on Jul 23, 2009 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe
they just signed Ratliff. I could be wrong though. As for McDyess, I don’t see him being a replacement for Oberto anymore than Blair is. McDyess is 6’9 on a good day, minus the leaping ability he had when he came into the league. Frankly, I’d rather have Blair defending at center than McDyess.
min
There is no straight replacement, at least not the simplified version that gets repeated on blogs and message boards. They completely remade their front court.
Kurt Thomas, Oberto, Udoka, and Bowen out
McDyess, Ratliff, Haislip, Blair, and Jefferson in.
He's still with Milwaukee
Was part of the RJeff trade.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Agree With This
I think the Blair contingent sees that lost opportunity as an "along with" not an "instead of".
I would have loved to have Blair in addition to Oberto. But I don’t write the checks. Abe got $2.5 million by selling the 2nd round pick, which actually makes Oberto cheaper than Blair would have been while ensuring we have a player that can play center. Blair was never going to be able to guard NBA centers. He’s just too short, even when you factor in his wingspan.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
I still disagree with the "cheaper" than Blair argument
Oberto = $1.99 Million + $1.99 Million Tax = $4 Million less $2.5 Million for selling the pick = $1.5 Million
Blair = $457K League Minimum + $457K Tax = $914K
Blair could have been signed for the League Minimum 1-Year contract at $457K (with two 1-year Team Options) – Just like the Wizards’ other two 2nd round picks (McGuire and Blatche)…..
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
My Math Was Wrong
But I would still rather pay an extra $600K for a backup that can actually guard opposing centers right away. Apparently, so would Abe, and that says a lot in my book.
Oberto’s defense vs. centers >>> McGee’s defense vs. centers > DeJuan Blair’s defense vs. centers
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
I don't disagree
On the fact that Oberto may be a better choice to guard opposing Centers than DeJuan Blair….
I only was pointing out the fact that by signing Oberto, he actually cost more than Blair. (for ONE year).
Of course, I still don’t understand why we couldn’t have had BOTH.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Both Would Have Been Really Nice
But again, I don’t write the checks.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Oberto
couldn’t beat out Matt Bonner for PT last year. He is a slighltly less ugly Calvin Booth. I think he is less of a NOWside and more of a NOside really. We all would like a vet big man backup but many of us doubt that guys like Oberto really provide that. If Oberto is playing minutes for us we are in trouble no matter what. I’m in the upside category cuz I feel the only way we’ll get a quality backup big man outside of our team is a trade In which case we might have to trade some young guys so then having another young guy is no problem. Besides Sheed and Dice I haven’t seen any FA big men who can help us this year.
Sheed or Dice might make the team better but they’d also push Blatche and McGee further to the end of the bench. Is that what we want for them? Getting a veteran center who’s meant to play 5-10 minutes a game seems about right to me.
And closer to the trade deadline perhaps Grunfeld can reevaluate this team and make a final move.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jul 23, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
ugly?
Really? you’re going with looks?
The Spurs went with Bonner because he can shoot 3’s and because Oberto’s heart problem limited his performance. he had an out patient procedure for this heart and should be back to 100% this season.
I felt the only way he would be different from Calvin Booth
Was that no one is as ugly as Calvin Booth(or Ruffin really). If oberto is playing 10 minutes a game we are in so much trouble. That would mean Blatche/Mcgee/haywood couldn’t provide more than 38 minutes of PT between them. Oberto was a decent player 2 years ago he is not gonna give a team what PJ Brown did for the Celts 2 years ago. I just feel that unless a vet was playing 12 minutes or more a game they are not really gonna provide that “experienced veteran impact” people talk about. I just think expecting Oberto to turn back the clock and stay healthy is as unrealistic(or more) as thinking some project guy will make an immediate impact this year. Oberto does not make us a title team so I don’t see what the difference between him and some project is. Either way I doubt it will make a difference I just don’t see Oberto doing anything more for our team than Booth did. I’m cool with waiting till the trade deadline.
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 23, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Plenty of vets get over injuries and revive their careers. Plenty of young players start making an impact in their 2nd, 3rd, 4th years. What’s so unrealistic?
by MR on Jul 23, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I was saying
people talk about getting an “impact veteran” and then advocate for guys who project to be our 11th best player(if that) so I feel like Oberto has as much chance of turning back the clock and making a big impact as a project guy has of helping(THIS year). The only difference is a project might help us in the future while the scrap-heap vet doesn’t offer us that. Old guys get rejuvenated and young guys turn into valuable players sometimes I’m not arguing that I’m just saying we talk about a veteran presence and then desire guys who have no business contributing on a playoff team. We can find a big body who can foul Dwight Howard or Shaq for 5 minutes a game easily. I would love a proven backup center and have no problem with bumping McGee back a little bit so he doesn’t HAVE to be depended on I just haven’t seen to many FA bigs who will def. be better than him this year. Basically I think spots 10-13 should almost always be projects as vets do little on the end of the bench only playing in emergency scenarios and projects can do that just as well and might(slim chance) offer us a top-8 rotation guy in the future. Plus we have some inconsistent guys but they all have some experience and our top 6-7 guys are established vets so unless we can get a consistent vet who can crack our top 8(pretty much all that plays in the playoffs) theres not gonna be much of an upgrade. I doubt it will matter either way I was just trying to explain why people such as myself don’t care about see the Oberto signing as a big deal or neccesary.
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 23, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Besides all recent evidence(last season) shows McGee and Blatche are better NOW and in the future than Oberto. He’s not gonna bail us out if Haywood gets injured for a long spell or if McGee and/or Blatche completely flops. Not trying to be argumentative cuz you guys raise good points I think the only difference is you guys see Oberto as being a sure thing to be better than Blatche and McGee and I see that as a remote possibility.
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 23, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure thing?
I don’t think Oberto is a sure thing, but the fact that several teams were pursuing him at least indicates the probability that he is healthy. And he is only a few years removed from being a starting center on a championship team.
by MR on Jul 23, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Several teams?
I mean guys like Wilcox are getting bigger contracts than him. I mean DS was a halfway decent starter for us 2 years ago how many people are clamoring for him? He’s a long shot to help much like a project would be. I mean he’s literally bottom of the barrel. Who knows maybe he could surprise us but it’s kindof unrealistic to expect ANYTHING from him.
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 23, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree with you.
Time will tell. Let’s discuss in October.
by MR on Jul 23, 2009 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
If Oberto gets 10 minutes
Blatche + McGee + Haywood would = more than 38 minutes, since Blatche plays a lot at PF next to Haywood (sometimes next to McGee, too, but that problems with that pairing have been discussed on here plenty recently)
ESPN: "Don't take it so hard, Lebron. Everybody gets dunked on."
Me: "I never have, punk."
sorry I should have clarified
I meant at the 5 spot. So if like Haywood played 28 minutes and then Blatche played 10 minutes at the 5(out of however many total minutes) and McGee played 10 minutes at the 5 thats all 48 minutes. Basically we are talking about a guy who is def. gonna be better than McGee(not gonna be found for the LLE) or someone who is gonna be an emergency big and only appears due to injury(Oberto). The funny thing about this argument though is that it is like arguing over whether you wanna stock up on canned peaches or canned pears in your bomb shelter. Either way, if your eating it, that means things have gone horribly wrong. If Oberto or a project is playing regularly for this team next year that means things have gone really wrong.
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 23, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Why so down on Oberto?
Just curious, I think he’s a great fit and can really contribute.
by MR on Jul 23, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I jsut think he was an adequate starter 2 years ago
who is coming off a bad year and is old and couldn’t beat out Matt Freaking Bonner. A dozen bargain basement big men have already signed so it’s not like he’s in demand. Maybe I’m being unfair but I don’t see why people would expect anything from him
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 23, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, actually, not exactly
I’d rather have Oberto for 2 million than Darius for 4.5 million. In that sense, it’s a major win to get Oberto.
I’m just surprised the Wizards zeroed in on him instead of some of the other guys out there. Not that it matters much, but it just seems a bit odd.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Who could we have gotten for the LLE that you would rather have had?
Ratliffe? Magloire (sic)?
Despite his not being as good of a fit, I’d probably have picked Frye over Oberto, but there was no way he was signing here for the LLE when he could go back hom to PHX for the LLE.
Having McDyess or Rasheed would have been great (Rasheed had some “blow up in our face” potential though), but neither was coming for our budget and neither was probably coming to us over another contender for the MLE anyway.
If healthy (yes that dreaded phrase again), I think Oberto was the best fit of the free agent bigs in our price range.
by Manimal Smith on Jul 23, 2009 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, again, for the LLE, it's fine
I would have gone for Rasho for a million more or waited out a little longer, but it’s not that big of a deal.
I’ve done a bit of a 180 on this. Now that I think of it as Oberto replacing Songaila for half as much, I’m very enthused.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Half as much and (maybe) for one year vs. two
If we signed Oberto to a 1 year deal, then this is an especially good move.
by Manimal Smith on Jul 23, 2009 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Adequate?
The dude was the starting center on a championship team. What more do you want? Adequate, for real? And the Matt Bonner thing is totally irrelevant. The man had heart problems, for crying out loud. Your heart is the engine for your entire body, of course you’re going to play like crap while going through what he did. They fixed it non-invasively, and it should be good to go. Otherwise, Ernie wouldn’t have signed the guy. That’s my take.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
What does him being a starter on a championship 2 years ago
have to do with him helping us this year? His best year he started and played 20 minutes a game. His best year produced per 40 averages of 11 rebounds. Mcgee had 11 per 40 last year. Plus you expect him to play at 35(coming off heart problems) as well as he did at 33. Thats a big supposition. He is a big body who can irritate defenders and provide fouls off the bench. He is a horrible weakside and transition defender and defensive rebounder. My whole point is that he isn’t a “veteran impact guy” he’s just a guy at the end of the bench. I agree with arguments that he brings a scrappyness missing from our other bigs but lots of guys can provide that. He’s just a big body, unless McGee and Blatche show improvement this year we will still need to find another veteran big at the deadline. It just seems like people are basing this on name recognition.
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 24, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Oberto is “name recognition”?
I think people like this move because of our financial reality. If we’re limited to the LLE I don’t know who we could expect to get that would fit better. If you have some names to throw out I’m interested to hear them. And I think we all agree that we’d like a good veteran big at the deadline for expiring contracts, but the deadline is quite a ways off.
my point was not that we could have gotten better for the LLE
but that I don’t view this as a solution to our veteran big man need. It increases our depth and he is as good anyone you can get for that price. I was just stating most people excitement for him seems to boil down to “he was a starter on a championship 2 years ago” and that doesn’t matter on the court. We needed another big at the end of the bench for depth purposes and now we have one and unless Blatche and McGee improve alot(to me just as likely as Oberto returning to his 33 year old self if not more) we will probably still need another big. I guess my point is I feel like people are touting him as a guy to make our top 8-9 rotation(where championships are won) and I feel he is an end of the bench top 12 guy instead. I agree we couldn’t afford any better and he’s just as good as any d-leaguer or bargain basement veteran big at the end of the bench. I don’t feel he totally sucks and it is a wasted signing I just don’t feel he has solved our vet. big man need(if it turns out we need one).
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 24, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
seems to boil down to "he was a starter on a championship 2 years ago" and that doesn’t matter on the court.
How can playoff experience and championship experience not matter on the court?
I don’t think anyone here thinks this is the last we hear about a big man, just the last we hear until either a) Foye/Miller can be packaged (unlikely) or b) the deadline.
Also, if you think Oberto is “name recognition” you are totally geeked out on the NBA. And I love it.
by MR on Jul 24, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
To answer this
How can playoff experience and championship experience not matter on the court?
Well, it’s tough to quantify or identify. Particularly if Oberto is so injured that he won’t actually see the court. We have to be careful not to make too much out of “championship experience.” It should be a secondary plus to go along with production in some form. If Oberto is healthy, he produces with the little things, but if he isn’t healthy or if he has slowed down, he gives basically nothing tangible.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Well if he can’t play then of course he can’t play. I’m not in favor of signing Bill Russell because he has championship experience. But if he’s able to play then having playoff/championship experience is a huge plus to a team with playoff/championship aspirations but without tons of that experience ourselves.
by MR on Jul 24, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Every Wizards fan
should be leery of players with past injury or especially heart issues.
1. The Spurs declined to bring him back – that should say something
2. He JUST had the procedure to ‘fix’ his arrhythmia problem in June.
3. The Wizards medical staff doesn’t exactly have the best track record
4. Although just a 4-year NBA veteran, he’s been playing professionally for 15 years
5. He has been playing for the Argentina National Team – ie: lots of mileage on him
Let’s at least curb our enthusiasm until we see if he can produce, without taking two weeks off every time he has an arrhythmia -
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I'll also state
IF the medical procedure worked, and he is able to perform at least to most of his 2007-08 form – signing him for the LLE was a good move.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
So the Question Becomes
Do you believe Ernie is the kind of GM that does his homework before throwing $2 million at a guy? Do you think he did this time?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
I believe Ernie relies on his staff
He relies on Flip to make the coaching decisions…
He relies on his scouts for scouting…..
and he probably relied on the Wizard’s medical staff to do that homework….
Ernie may have confidence in the Wizard’s medical and Training staff – but I do not.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I'll turn that question around
Do YOU trust the Wizard’s medical staff ?
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
No
But I don’t think the Wizard’s medical staff was consulted on this decision. They haven’t had the chance to look at him yet, nor would they if he’s not on the team. I believe Ernie did his homework by consulting with Oberto’s doctors and probably the Spurs’ medical staff.
So I will stay with Ernie on this decision.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
By the way
I agree with you, that if the Doctors fixed Oberto’s heart problem, he can, and probably will be a very good pick up for the Wiz….
If this were the Hawks…. or the Pacers, or any other NBA team, I’d say it was a good pick up – But given the Wizards bad luck with injuries and medical issues, I’m withholding my full support for this signing….
(not that I’m superstitious or anything – but I’ve collected dozens of 4-leaf clovers, and rubbed the fur completely off my rabbit’s foot – and nothing seems to help the Wizard’s luck)
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I think it says a whole bunch
that our last big off the bench is Oberto….
and not Party John…
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Prada as usual put it better than I could have myself. If oberto isn’t healthy or his mobility/ability prevents him from being able to play enough to get on the court than the championship experience isn’t worth all that much. I wasn’t really disparaging or discounting championship experience so much as saying I didn’t think he could play enough to make an impact with that experience. I felt like people were just saying “championship starter 2 years ago” without taking into account whether he can really play anymore(not a sure thing). If he can’t return to form he is just a big man who can foul/flop and double as an assistant coach. And yes I am really that geeked out on the NBA.
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 24, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
How Do You Know?
I wasn’t really disparaging or discounting championship experience so much as saying I didn’t think he could play enough to make an impact with that experience.
At this point we are in speculation wars, because neither of us have inside information on Oberto’s health. You think he is clearly washed up and has little chance of returning to his 2007-08 form, despite the fact that Ernie Grunfeld does have access to this inside information and decided to offer him the full LLE. Ernie isn’t always right, but I’m going with him on this decision. If Oberto’s heart is fixed for good, then his numbers should return to form, making last season an injury-induced outlier/anomaly.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
To Answer Your Question
What does him being a starter on a championship 2 years ago have to do with him helping us this year?
Two years ago he started at center for a championship team. The season after he posted even better numbers. Then last season he regressed due to his heart condition. If his surgery was successful at fixing his heart, then there is a much better chance he will look like he did in 2006-2008 than what he looked like last season. So, in my opinion, his performance for the Spurs championship team is a lot more relevant than his performance last season.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
My point was that
to project him to be a valauable addition takes as much if not more optimism than expecting McGee to beast out this year. He wasn’t all that great when he started(Duncan guarded the other guys’s top big man, played only 17 minutes a game, was a bad defensive rebounder, bad at transition and helpside D). Plus now he’s 35 and coming off a heart problem. I think he brings size and decent on-ball D(something we need) but not much else. I don’t think we overpaid for him, I respect his championship experience just not sure it will matter if he’s not the same player he was 2 years ago.
What I don’t understand is when people like you(I’m not trying to single you out cuz I respect your opinions it’s just you have been vocal on this subject) kill the idea of Blatche and McGee stepping up and being our backup Big Men and then talk about what Oberto did 3 seasons ago. He is an even bigger “what if?” guy than Blatche or McGee. He was the Deshawn of that Spurs team not even playing 20 minutes a game and just not getting in the way of Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, Bowen, Finley. He has never had a season with a rebounds per 40 minute average as high as McGee’s was last year. He had a heart condition and is 35 so to expect him to be his 33 yo self is a bit of a stretch. I’m not a doctor and I can’t comment on his heart but this is a team that gave out a max contract for a guy who took a whole extra season to come back from a knee injury so I can’t really be super confident that they got it right with a 2mil signing. I think there are valid arguments to be made that he provides a skill set that compliments our other back ups. Concievably he can be valuable when we play guys like Perkins(not much of an O threat) and Shaq(Oberto couldn’t run with Howard). My arguments have been that I think people tend to overvalue what he was on those Spurs teams and how those teams had way diff. personell than we do. I think people just shout Championship starter in 2006-2007 without thinking about his skill set/age/health and how they translate to this team. When have the Spurs ever let anyone good leave their team(Minus Steven Jackson who was a head case)? Secondly I find peoples logic inconsistent when they apply it to Oberto and McGee and Blatche. If you that big of an optimist you should be more excited about McGee and Blatche than Oberto. Time will tell I guess my confusion is with people being down on Blatche and McGee but then high on an even bigger question mark in Oberto.
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 27, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's Break This Out
That’s a lot of virtual ink to respond to. I’m going to need to break it out into pieces.
to project him to be a valauable addition takes as much if not more optimism than expecting McGee to beast out this year.
I disagree. Recovering from a treatable injury or health condition is typically more certain than a player improving his skill set. Age is a small issue, but Oberto didn’t play that many minutes last season and so I don’t expect much difference between a 34 year old Oberto and the 32 year old version that was so very effective.
He wasn’t all that great when he started(Duncan guarded the other guys’s top big man, played only 17 minutes a game, was a bad defensive rebounder, bad at transition and helpside D).
I completely disagree with the assertion that he was a bad defensive rebounder. In 2006-07 (Spurs championship season in which he started the second half), Oberto averaged 6.3 defensive rebounds per 36 minutes. The next season, 2007-08 (his last relatively healthy season), Oberto averaged 6.1 defensive rebounds per 36 minutes.
For comparison, last season, when healthy, Antawn Jamison averaged 6.1 defensive rebounds. Two seasons ago, when Brendan Haywood was last healthy, he averaged only 4.9 defensive rebounds per 36 minutes (the season before he averaged 5.8). JaVale McGee averaged 5.5 defensive rebounds per 36 minutes last season. Andray Blatche averaged 5.3 last season.
There is nothing wrong with Oberto’s defensive rebounding when healthy. It is quite good.
I can’t really comment on Oberto’s defense that much, because I haven’t watched him that extensively and defense is very hard to objectively evaluate in any case. But I strongly doubt if he was that bad at defense that he would have started for a team that finished 2nd and 3rd in defensive rating as a team in those seasons in which he was relatively healthy. My guess is that he is better than you are making him out to be defensively. He is certainly better than JaVale McGee, who is currently one of the worst defenders in the league. However, I do expect McGee to get a lot better under Flip Saunders. Here’s to hoping.
What I don’t understand is when people like you(I’m not trying to single you out cuz I respect your opinions it’s just you have been vocal on this subject) kill the idea of Blatche and McGee stepping up and being our backup Big Men and then talk about what Oberto did 3 seasons ago. He is an even bigger "what if?" guy than Blatche or McGee.
I partially answered this above. I also want to point out that I am a whole lot more upbeat about Blatche now that I know he won’t have to fill in at center if Flip doesn’t like his performance there. I think both Blatche and McGee would play better at the PF, but especially Blatche. Still, it is asking more, IMO, for a player to get better than to simply get healthy.
He has never had a season with a rebounds per 40 minute average as high as McGee’s was last year.
I believe this is incorrect. I am using basketball-reference.com as my source, which I believe to be accurate. Check your numbers again. Oberto has had two seasons in which his per 36 minute rebound numbers were better than McGee’s last season. This doesn’t change if you convert those numbers to per 40 minute averages.
He had a heart condition and is 35 so to expect him to be his 33 yo self is a bit of a stretch.
He had a heart condition that is now corrected via a non-invasive surgerical procedure. He is 34 (not 35) and won’t turn 35 until late next season. He has played relatively few minutes, so I don’t think that his body is completely worn down like you are assuming. More likely, he simply had one bad year due entirely to his heart condition. His age might be more of a factor if we were expecting him to play 20+ minutes every game, but we clearly are not.
I’m not a doctor and I can’t comment on his heart but this is a team that gave out a max contract for a guy who took a whole extra season to come back from a knee injury so I can’t really be super confident that they got it right with a 2mil signing.
That’s a good point and I have thought about it a lot recently. Did Ernie really think that Gilbert would miss most of this past season when he offered him a max deal? He must have known that he would at least miss some. Perhaps he swallowed the bullet so that he could have a healthy Gil in seasons 2-6. There weren’t other good options out there available to him because of the salary cap.
This is different with Oberto. Ernie is reportedly offering only a one year deal. This means that Ernie needed to be confident that Oberto would be ready to go this season. I expect that Ernie did his homework with the doctors (Oberto’s, not the Wizards) and established that this is going to be the case.
I think there are valid arguments to be made that he provides a skill set that compliments our other back ups. Concievably he can be valuable when we play guys like Perkins(not much of an O threat) and Shaq(Oberto couldn’t run with Howard).
Most definitely. I’m glad you agree with this. One reason I keep harping on the skininess of Blatche and McGee is because I have watched the Wizards get continously abused by physical teams for the past 5 seasons (before that too, but it wasn’t just the physical teams that abused us before that). I have been screaming that the Wizards get someone who was not only decent in terms of talent but had the bulk to defend the paint when Haywood went to the bench. Oberto is not a great defender, but he can at least hold his ground in the low post. He is also a fundamentally sound player, from what I’ve seen, that will do little things like box out his defender that will make a big difference, especially in close games.
My arguments have been that I think people tend to overvalue what he was on those Spurs teams and how those teams had way diff. personell than we do. I think people just shout Championship starter in 2006-2007 without thinking about his skill set/age/health and how they translate to this team.
I’ve never argued that he was one of the better players on those great Spurs teams. But I do think it is relevant that he had the talent and skill set to at least start on a championship team in the past three seasons (when healthy) when discussing a backup that will ideally play less than 15 MPG. Am I expecting him to be the exact same player as then? No. But I don’t think it is out of the question that he will be close now that he is healthy. And close to that is more than good enough for a backup.
When have the Spurs ever let anyone good leave their team(Minus Steven Jackson who was a head case)?
Typically when they have better options. Just because the Spurs can get someone better doesn’t mean that the player they are giving up on isn’t any good anymore. They gave up on Rasho Nesterovic after the 2005-06 season, and he went from starting for the Spurs to starting for the Raptors. They gave up on Beno Udrih after 2006-07, who was nothing more than a reserve guy for them, and he ended up starting for the Kings for two straight seasons. They gave up Nazr Mohammed the same season as Nesterovic, and he went from being a part-time starter for a good Spurs team to a part-time starter for a good Pistons team.
None of those guys were great, but I’m not expecting Oberto to be great. I’m expecting him to be a good backup for Haywood for anywhere between 5-15 MPG. I don’t think I’m expecting too much.
Secondly I find peoples logic inconsistent when they apply it to Oberto and McGee and Blatche. If you that big of an optimist you should be more excited about McGee and Blatche than Oberto. Time will tell I guess my confusion is with people being down on Blatche and McGee but then high on an even bigger question mark in Oberto.
Pretty much answered above. I am hoping that Blatche steps up as a power forward. I am hoping that McGee to take major strides, but I still expect him to be below-average defensively overall. I am hoping that Oberto merely gets healthy (if he isn’t already) and returns to the form he had before his heart really started bothering him. I think it is reasonable to be most optimistic about Oberto, since I am not expecting any real improvement, just a return to the norm.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Agree with MR on this
Oberto brings a very different skillset than either Blatche or McGee. He is a hustle, defense first player who doesn’t need the ball at all and who is very experienced at defending top big men during the playoffs.
If McGee keeps getting torched in the post, then we will really need Oberto. If Blatche keeps breaking plays on offense or gets in foul trouble, then we will really need Oberto. If any of our current 4 big men get injured, then we will really need Oberto.
He is a really good signing and I think the reason he was signed after players like Magloire is that he has some health issues. If there is a reason to be down on this its that problem, not his general level of play.
by Manimal Smith on Jul 23, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
So your saying
if we have serious injuries or Blatche/Mcgee flops than he is gonna take us to the playoffs? I’m skeptical
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 23, 2009 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
No, not exactly
I wasn’t particularly clear (mostly because I dind’t want to repeat exactly what I said in the other thread on this ;p).
My point is that he brings something different to the table that we actually need on this team. We currently have 4 front court players and only 1 of them (Brendan) is defense oriented. Its borderline ludicrous to head into a season with only 4 front court players to begin with, but a team that has so much ball domination in its back court (butler, arenas, foye, miller, young) REALLY needs front court players who primary focus is defense/rebounding on who pride themselves on fitting into a team, hustling, being scrappy (nice to have a euro who can do a convincing flop on OUR side for once), and who score garbage points rather than having plays run for them.
Oberto’s skill set is a really good match for the rest of our roster and it doesn’t hurt that he has alot of experience guarding the best centers in the league during the playoffs. He WILL help us next year more than Blair would have (though I don’t think this justifies selling the pick at all) because he can guard centers and already knows how to fit into and support a cast of all star offensive players.
by Manimal Smith on Jul 23, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree we need another big
So we should get a real one through trade. At 33 Oberto had his best year and was a mediocre rebounder and a hustle guy. He’s bad at weakside D(sound familiar) and is a poor shooter and shot blocker. His per 40 minutes stats pale in comparison to Blatche and McGee. He’s basically a big body who can irritate whoever he is guarding. So he is defensively oriented but not neccesarily an above average defender(hollinger also said he wasn’t a great defender based on his best year) . Check out his per 40 stats on the link below. I’m happy to agree to disagree especially cuz neither of us can really know right now I was just trying to express why I’m not impressed. Seems like people are approving of the signing out of Name recognition. I think he compares similarly to DS. 2 guys who were below average starters on good teams 2 years ago but are coming off injuries and have an overblown rep as a defender. Lets hope he proves me wrong.
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 23, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Mediocre Rebounder
Career rebounds per 36 minutes:
Oberto: 9.2
Haywood: 9.0
Blatche: 8.8
Jamison: 7.9
Yeah, real mediocre. He’s only the best rebounder on our team when healthy.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
McGee had significantly better
rebounds per 40 minutes than him last year. I notice you left him out.
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 24, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Not Intentionally
You still refer to “last year” as if that is relevant. I still contend that it is an outlier caused entirely by his heart condition, which reportedly has been repaired completely. I still believe Ernie would not have offered Oberto the full LLE unless he had done his homework and concluded that Oberto should return to his 2007-08 form.
For comparison sake, in 2007-08 Oberto averaged 9.4 rebounds per 36 minutes (the season before that, he averaged 9.7). McGee averaged 9.3 rebounds per 36 minutes last season. So my phrase that “he’s only the best rebounder on our team when healthy” still holds true. How exactly does that make him mediocre at rebounding?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
he is no better of a rebounder than McGee or Blatche
are you saying they are good rebounders right now. Last year is more relevant than any other year to use as comparison. Should all guys be judged on their best years which happened years ago over their recent performance? Your points seem to lack logic.
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 27, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I Tend to Give Players the Benefit of the Doubt When Injured
Should all guys be judged on their best years which happened years ago over their recent performance? Your points seem to lack logic.
I judge Oberto by his last healthy season, which just happened to be his best season as a pro. I give the same consideration to guys like DeShawn Stevenson and Gilbert Arenas. When guys play hurt, they are completely different players. When they get healthy, they tend to be the players they were before injury.
McGee and Blatche were both mostly healthy last season, and Blatche was completely healthy the season before. There is a difference between hoping that a player gets better and simply expecting a player to heal and return to form. When Oberto was healthy, he was a better rebounder than both Blatche and McGee (only slightly better than McGee, but still better). That’s a relevant comparison in my book. But you are right in the sense that there is no guarantee that Oberto will be completely healthy and return to form, and that both Blatche and McGee won’t get a lot better.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
I Would Say
if we have serious injuries or Blatche/Mcgee flops than he is gonna take us to the playoffs? I’m skeptical
First of all, he is already 10 times better than McGee defensively, so there should be no difference to our team if McGee gets hurt. If Blatche gets hurt, he is not “gonna take us to the playoffs,” but he can fill the void well enough to keep this team playing at a high level. And yes, that means in the playoffs too.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
I disagree with your assertion that he is much better defensively than McGee
McGee is a better weakside defender and shot blocker and in transition. Oberto is a better man defender/flopper. They are both weak in certain aspects of post defense. I might give Oberto and his flopping a slight edge but he’s certainly not MUCH better than McGee as an overall defender. Name recognition doesn’t mean anything on the court.
by BayAreaBullet on Jul 24, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
thats the point, neither of the 7 footers people call Centers can put their chest into a NBA PF or C and keep them from the rim. That’s what we needed, thats what they went out and got.
Can Oberto do that either?
Or does he just put his chest into someone and flop?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I've heard
that they are going to try and curtail the “flop” this year, moreseo than ever. I really hope so. I can’t stand it. If a guy is legitimately dislodged from his position or run into, fine. But the constant flopping takes away from the game, and shouldn’t be a part of basketball. I don’t consider tricking the refs to be a basketball “skill.”
so they'll stop the flop
but still let the “stars” take five steps? I think the flop is the only the only way to one can ever get a call on D-Wade or Lebron..
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
If they step up enforcement of the flop
Does that mean that 260 pound LeBron will be called for a foul, when he runs headlong into the chest of a 180 pound guard, and springs back like he was hit by a truck? Is that not flopping?
Or is it only going to be players of the “non-Superstar” variety that get called – like Andres Nocioni, Fabricio Oberto, Shane Battier and Andrew Bogut ?
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
that is charging
and lebron would never do that. he is too much of a sportsman.
end sarcasm.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
I agree
with your sentiment. I would hope that they are planning to curtail all the Oscar- attempting performances. Sometimes I watch an NBA game, and half expect to see a KAPLOW bubble pop up like in the old Batman show. There was just as much contact between Adam West and “Thug #1” as there is between Lebron and “defender #1.”
Unfortunately for us, this would apply to Gilbert as well. At least Gilbert circa 2006.
Oberto Can Better Than Blatche and McGee
And that’s what counts.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Oh Please
McGee is a better weakside defender and shot blocker and in transition.
JaVale McGee is an absolutely terrible defender. You can disagree if you want, but just about every statistical evidence is against you. Blocked shots mean nothing if they don’t result in the opposing team scoring fewer points, and that clearly did not happen with McGee. The Wizards had an abysmal defense last season, but it actually got a lot worse when JaVale McGee entered the game. That should scream something at you. JaVale can’t hold his ground. He never boxes out. He is always out of position defensively. He bites for almost every pump fake. He has a lot of potential and could one day become a good defender, but right now he is horrible. I stand by my assertion that Oberto is a lot better defensively. The comparison isn’t even close.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
I would count
JaVale, Young Nick, Dray, and Crit as projects. Foye may not have reached his peak yet, but there’s no special one-on-one time needed any more for him. And I know Dom is still young, but that guy is, to me, the next Shane Battier — stat line zero, in-game hero. He won’t rack up the stats, won’t have crazy highlights, but he’ll take tough defensive assignments, make almost no mistakes, and be the kind of guy whose presence might not be noticed by fans, but absence strongly felt by players. He’s still developing into that guy, but he’s not a project to me because he’s on the right path and is self-motivated. Those four who I count as projects are all self-motivated to varying degrees, but seem to need constant supervision to stay on target.
ESPN: "Don't take it so hard, Lebron. Everybody gets dunked on."
Me: "I never have, punk."
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