Pollin': Which Coach Would You Rather Have Right Now?
by Jake Whitacre on Jul 21, 2009 12:02 PM EDT
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PrintAfter taking a few weeks off to keep the focus on the draft, the start of free agency, and Summer League, Pollin' is back in action. As you can see from the title, this week we'll be tackling an issue that still provokes strong response from both sides.
Many felt that Eddie Jordan was underservedly fired after the team stumbled out of the gates to a 1-10 start without Gilbert Arenas and Brendan Haywood. Especially when you consider that he led the Wizards to the playoffs for four straight seasons, many felt that he should've been given the benefit of the doubt in a down year.
Alas, Ernie Grunfeld didn't share the same viewpoinnt and after firing Jordan didn't take long to settle on a replacement in Flip Saunders. Going strictly by win-loss records, Saunders' 59.7% win-loss percentage is a clear upgrade over Jordan's mark of 44.4%. But as Exhibit G pointed out in April, you can't evaluate win-loss percentages without taking a look at the whole picture.
Flip Saunders never had to deal with the amount and severity of injuries that Jordan did in his tenure with Washington. He also had more talented rosters with guys like Kevin Garnett, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, and Rip Hamilton at his disposal than Jordan did in Washington or Sacramento. Once you factor in the injuries and the relative talent, the disparity in wins and losses shrinkens.
The question you have to wrestle with this week is which coach you would rather have leading the troops this upcoming season. Would you rather have Flip Saunders with his fresh voice and proven track record, or Eddie Jordan, who knows the team better and has never truly gotten the chance to show what he could do with a healthy roster?
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I figured it would be
But I know there’s still a lot of people who feel strongly about Eddie (although most of them are in the media) so I figured it was worth one last examination, especially now that we know a little bit about the new regime’s coaching style from what we saw at Vegas. Even though Flip himself wasn’t coaching at Summer League.
Bullets Forever: A blog dedicated to the Washington Wizards with analysis, commentary, and more YouTube videos than your eyes can handle.
by Jake Whitacre on Jul 21, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
It's a fine poll
I’m just saying it was an easy call for me.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Me too
Eddie Jordan is a good guy, AND a good coach. I just think his time ran out. He is better suited for an all veteran team with an obvious rotation.
Ha - like Philly?
"a crab dribble is when you travel" - caron butler
by little stevie colter on Jul 21, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah that will be intersting to watch this season
"a crab dribble is when you travel" - caron butler
by little stevie colter on Jul 21, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Make the playoffs...
one and done. It will be interesting to see how the Sixers resolve the PG issue though. I do not think EJ will be comfortable running Lou Williams as starting PG.
I think they will run and run
And that’s why the 76ers will do well with Jordan. Not sure how they will run the Princeton when they are in halfcourt sets, but this team looks like a team that can get out on the break and score a lot. It seems similar (but not as talented) as the Nets teams that made the Finals when he was an assistant.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Jul 22, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
What Philly's up to is anyone's guess
BulletsForever can post about how the team tries to have things both ways with something like the Foye/Miller trade. What combination of ways is the 76ers organization trying to have, though? I’ve no idea what direction that franchise thinks it’s taking.
As an object lesson in the behavior of the fates, we might do well to remember that Philadelphia was last year’s answer to “What Eastern Conference team made a major move this offseason in order to contend?”
Philly's bleeding money
That’s a problem.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I meant their overall budget, not their player payroll
They got killed at the gate and their ownership isn’t doing well either.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I guess the voters have spoken (including me)
I think the issue is whether we’re talking about “fairness” versus “what’s best for the team”. The way you posed the question (appropriately) emphasizes the latter, and the results are clear. If you asked “did Eddie Jordan deserve to be fired” or something of the sort, you might have gotten a different answer. Of course, the reality is you can only have one head coach, Eddie’s getting paid plenty, and we’re better off for it.
Fairness
exactly. It was not ‘fair’ to can Eddie….
But Eddie was not the best fit for this team.
Obviously, if you limit the discussion to who is the best Head Coach for the Wizards this season – and leave it to a choice between only Eddie Jordan and Flip Saunders – the majority of Wiz fans will vote Saunders.
1. Eddie Jordan is a known quantity for this team – and he was able to get the team only as far as the 2nd round (injuries , talent, whatever)
2. Flip Saunders is an unknown quantity for this team – and he brings optimism that some things may change (rotations, actual set plays at crucial points in the game, better defense, player development, etc….) – Things that Eddie Jordan couldn’t, or didn’t change in his tenure here.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Couldn't Agree More With Both of You
The 1-10 start was certainly not Eddie’s fault, but it was a good enough excuse for Ernie to fire him, which he had wanted to do for several seasons but couldn’t because Eddie kept overachieving. So in a sense it wasn’t fair, but ultimately it was better for the team.
It was reported in the Post that Ernie had wanted to fire Eddie all the way back in the 2006-07 season after the team started 4-9, but couldn’t when Eddie turned things around so quickly. Ironically, Eddie Jordan made it to the All-Star game that season, and so Ernie would have to wait until he could replace Eddie with a better coach who could get this team to play defense.
Despite Eddie’s success, as I pointed out below, Eddie could never get this team to play anything close to even average defense, even when he had all of his players healthy. This is why Eddie had to go. Ernie just needed the right opportunity. One positive from the last miserable season is that Ernie got that opportunity.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Eddie Jordan = Norv Turner.
There. I said it.
The Washington Wizards: providing career scoring nights for unknown opposing bench players since 2004.
I wouldn't
go THAT far. That’s like saying Vince Carter = Harold Miner. Neither of them became Mike Jordan 2.0, but Carter’s had a somewhat more productive career.
exactly. It was not ‘fair’ to can Eddie….
I disagree. The team got no better under him. I know, I know – injuries, injuries, injuries. That’s fine, but all teams suffer injuries. Sure, he gets some leeway for the caliber of injuries he dealt with. But my statement remains the same. The team didn’t get any better. He was not very good at, or even concerned with, developing young talent. At some point you have to stop counting on being healthy all year to be competitive. At some point you have to have the next guy ready to step up.
I would.
Both coaches got their teams to the playoffs. Both were essentially offensive coordinators promoted to the head coach spot who were pretty bad on the other side of the ball. Both couldn’t develop players to save their lives and both made very boneheaded in-game decisions. Both were fired under questionable situations – don’t forget Norv was 7-6 when he was canned. I actually think Norv get a little bit of a bad rap.
That being said, there are a few great coaches, some really good ones (this where I think Flip falls), a whole bunch of mediocre coaches (Eddie), and some really terrible ones out there.
The Washington Wizards: providing career scoring nights for unknown opposing bench players since 2004.
I'm sorry
FEW coaches compare to Norv Turner. I’m not a big fan of Eddie Jordan, but he took this team to the playoffs 4 years in a row. Norv went once in 7 1/2 years. Eddie Jordan is an average NBA coach. Norv Turner is an awful NFL coach. He DIDN’T get a bad rap. He got off easy. How many jobs can you stay at for 7 years without producing? He lucked out with the ownership change. If that had gone down sooner, he wouldn’t have lasted as long as he did. Bad rap? Not a chance. He may be the luckiest coach ever. He stayed here longer than he should’ve, somehow got hired in Oakland. Once Al Davis smartened up and fired him, he ended up taking over a 14-2 TEAM. And they got worse. Like I said, I’m not an Eddie Jordan-ite, but I think if you gave him the current Celtics roster, he would get them to the playoffs every year.
It's important to note that fewer NFL teams make the playoffs
Here was the Wizards’ ranking overall in the league based on record during EJ’s tenure:
04/05: Tied for 11th with Boston and Memphis
05/06: 13th
06/07: Tied for 14th with New Jersey
07/08: 13th
In the NFL, Eddie would have only made the playoffs once too.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
That's a bogus conclusion
You make the playoffs based on your standing in your conference in both the NBA and the NFL.
04/05: 5th in the East
05/06: 5th
06/07: 7th (tied w/ New Jersey for 6th, but lost the tiebreaker)
07/08: 5th
So if the NBA had the same number of playoff teams as the NFL, Eddie would have missed once in those four years on a tiebreaker. Come on, Prada. I expect better from you.
Look Mr. James, I lived near the Chesapeake Bay for the first 21 years of my life, at times as close as a 5 minute walk. I know about crabs. And let me tell you something about crabs: they travel every time they get in the lane.
Come on
Regardless of the rules either you make the play offs or you don’t.
by Danyon Rome on Jul 21, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I suppose literally Eddie made the playoffs more than Turner
The only point really is that you can’t compare playoff appearances across sports since not every sport has the same number of teams make the playoffs.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Enough Norv -
Enough Redskins.
"a crab dribble is when you travel" - caron butler
by little stevie colter on Jul 22, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
it's no really
apples to apples. That is an impossible comparison to make. All I know is that Eddie Jordan was/is an average to good coach. He brought this team back to the playoffs, while Turner got the Skins further from the playoffs every year.
Disagree With This Sentence
Both were essentially offensive coordinators promoted to the head coach spot who were pretty bad on the other side of the ball.
That sentence only really applies to Eddie Jordan. Flip continues to get a bad rap for his defense just because he took over for Larry Brown and the Pistons defense fell from 3rd all the way down to 5th. Give me a break. Sure, Flip is not nearly as good a defensive coach as he is an offensive coach, but he’s no slouch on defense. He once had the 15th ranked defense in the NBA with Stephon Marbury as his starting point guard. He had one outlier season where his defense was 23rd, and other than that he never had a full season in which his defense was worse than 16th in 11 full seasons as a head coach.
Here are Flip’s defensive rankings for his 11 full seasons: 15th, 23rd, 11th, 12th, 15th, 15th, 16th, 6th, 5th, 7th, 4th.
Compare that to Eddie’s 6 full seasons as a head coach: 22nd, 20th, 19th, 22nd, 28th, 24th.
Compared to Eddie Jordan, Flip Saunders is a defensive genius. The worst you can say about Flip’s defense is that it is only above average. If his offense wasn’t so good, Flip would just be considered a really good all-around head coach. But people dismiss his defense simply because he is so good at getting the most out of his players offensively. It is very unfair, especially when you consider he has had 4 full seasons of top 6 ranked defenses for two completely different teams.
I have said it before and I will say it again – if Flip can get this team to be around 13th-11th in defensive rating to go along with a top 3 offense, then this team can compete for a championship. Based on his track record, I believe he can get it done.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
He wasn't talking about Flip
He was saying that both Norv Turner and Eddie Jordan were OCs promoted to HC. And that statement is a bit of a moot point. They were hired away from teams where they were assistant coaches to be head coaches. Isn’t that pretty much the case with every coach? Nobody starts their career as a head coach, so everybody’s first coaching gig is a promotion from assistant to head coach. To say that because both of these guys specialized in offense somehow connects them is a loose line to draw at best.
Look Mr. James, I lived near the Chesapeake Bay for the first 21 years of my life, at times as close as a 5 minute walk. I know about crabs. And let me tell you something about crabs: they travel every time they get in the lane.
My Bad
I obviously should read the threads more closely instead of just skimming through them. Oh well, I still feel it was a point that was good to make, even if uncalled for.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
wrong
Norv Turner once got chewed out by Danny Snyder, and afterwards, the players could tell that he had been crying … Turner lost the respect of the locker room that day.
Would that type of crap ever happen with Eddie Jordan? Hell no.
Sorry, but in my opinion, that comparison is B.S.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
by Kyle Weidie on Jul 21, 2009 7:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
there are some similarities
It was clear (at least to the players) that Eddie and Ernie didn’t always see eye-to-eye. Challenges to his coaching and offensive game plan (from the players) became more frequent. So both had to deal with battles from both sides.
Turner came from a championship team where he was credited for their success. Eddie came from a Finals team where he was credited for there success.
Turner lost respect because he looked like a wuss to his players. Eddie never lost the players, but he lost management, which is just as bad. And by “management,” I’m including people like Unseld and Polin (who could have intervened and kept Jordan onboard).
And we have all seen examples of a team being held hostage by star players. In both situations, the star players could have lobbied for their coach to stay. If both cases, the players balked.
I will say that the biggest difference was Eddie was more beloved by the Washington Fans. Turner was a Cowboy, afterall.
That's part of it
Not getting along with management hurt his case, for sure. But in the end, I think it came down to a perception in the organization that a change was needed. The Wizards had just committed to spending a lot of money, only to see Arenas and Haywood get lost to injuries. Our first significant rivalry in years was becoming more and more one-sided every year, and it involved our team going against the league’s top young superstar. The Wizards were in danger of becoming very insignificant in the league (not to mention poor), and that 1-10 start was the last straw. And so, since it’s easier (and cheaper) to blame the coach than the players, Eddie got canned. Whether anyone in the front office liked him or not was irrelevant. Something had to be done, and so it was either make a blockbuster trade and say goodbye to one of your Big 3 or fire your coach who hadn’t gotten out of the first round in 3 years. So long, Eddie Jordan. :(
Look Mr. James, I lived near the Chesapeake Bay for the first 21 years of my life, at times as close as a 5 minute walk. I know about crabs. And let me tell you something about crabs: they travel every time they get in the lane.
except
Turner came from a championship team where he was credited for their success.
It later became obvious that JIMMY JOHNSON was the reason for their success. They were awful after he left, but all of is assistants who moved on made terrible head coaches.
I hate to keep talking about the Skins on this site, it’s just that I have a particular hatred for Turner that I reserve for the dregs of society. It was well known that the guy stayed on because of the flux the ownership was in. As I previously stated, NOBODY keeps a job 7 years with no production. The only reason the media backed him is because they disliked Snyder. He was a whiny little half-man who took a once proud franchise and turned it into a joke. Remember, they were 1 year removed from the playoffs when he took over, TWO YEARS removed from the Super Bowl. You could actually make the argument that Jordan was the exact opposite, as the Wizards became relevant again on his watch.
OK, I promise I will try not to talk Redskins on here anymore.
im greatfull for what Eddie did for our team where he took us
but with Eddie our team seemed to be soo divided … also it was like it was Eddies way or no way sometimes …. but with the short time that Flip has been here our team seems to be more together…. our coaches too they have more roles…player are understanding there roles too
it was a good change that needed to happen to get better
I still support Eddie
and would have never wanted him to get fired. But he did. And the way things have turned out have been pretty good. Yes, I voted for Flip, but I think Eddie did great things for this team. In the end, though, with few exceptions, the lifespan of an NBA coach really shouldn’t ever be more than 4-6 years. That’s why good coaches like Flip, Eddie, Avery Johnson, Sam Mitchell, etc. get sent on their way at certain points. For instance, despite Orlando making it to the Finals, we all know Stan Van Gundy’s time is running out.
Look Mr. James, I lived near the Chesapeake Bay for the first 21 years of my life, at times as close as a 5 minute walk. I know about crabs. And let me tell you something about crabs: they travel every time they get in the lane.
I was with you up until that last paragraph
Stan’s special. He was unfairly fired in Miami and I hope the same doesn’t happen in Orlando.
Reminds me a lot of Sloan, who was with the Jazz for a very long time.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
He's not a bad coach
but his abrasive attitude towards officials, opposing teams, and even his own players will wear out his welcome in Orlando. Really, I like what he does as a coach. I wouldn’t go so far as to compare him to Sloan, but he’s a smart guy who knows how to create really good cohesion on his teams (like combining the defensive domination of his big men with the deadly shooting of his backcourt last year). But the thing is, systems get figured out by opposing coaches. The ones that stay around for a long time are the ones who are given the time to change their personnel and develop their young players. Most owners and GMs won’t give coaches that kind of time. Look around the league. You’ll find more coaches who have gotten wrongly/questionably fired at least once in their career than those who never have. I’m not saying it’s right, just saying that this is the way I believe it works.
Look Mr. James, I lived near the Chesapeake Bay for the first 21 years of my life, at times as close as a 5 minute walk. I know about crabs. And let me tell you something about crabs: they travel every time they get in the lane.
Stan Van G is a darn good coach...
but he’s more Norm Sloan (the old NC State coach who could never quite beat Dean Smith) than Jerry Sloan…
By his own admission, SVG was a mediocre college player… Jerry Sloan was a top NBA PG,,, and I believe these things just carry over differently into one’s coaching persona.
One of the (few and uncertain) joys of being relatively old, is that I used to watch a lot of pre-Jordan Bulls games on TV and the Jerry Sloan – Norm Van Lier – Butterbean Love – Chet Walker – Clifford Ray (or Tom Boerwinkle) Bulls were a hardnosed team that played way way beyond their natural abilities. I have never seen a more kickass backcourt combo that Sloan and Van Lier (think of Thomas and Dumars but possibly more driven). You might beat them but you would not feel much like celebrating afterwards.
As much as I hate to agree with Shaq
But SVG’s handling of his PG situation in the Finals gave a lot of credence to the Master of Panic moniker the Big Bricklayer gave him.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Jul 22, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of Eddie's not being "the right fit": Either way, you've got a "system coach"
Neither Jordan nor Flip Saunders has shown the flexibility to adapt to rosters as well as one might like. Eddie J. runs the Princeton offense. Flip Saunders has his vaunted playbook.
These are both coaches more in the model of the NFL, or of college basketball — in which the head coach’s system defines how the team plays more than the talent on the roster. Flip may have lasted extremely long in Minnesota, but then the Wolves’ roster was pretty darned stable for long stretches of that run, and he had players from the deep bench up to Garnett playing his jump shots-oriented offense.
Over time both of the two guys might “become bad fits” more than other choices, is what I’m saying. Not that Phil Jackson’s triangle isn’t another such example. Just an observation.
I Think I Disagree With an Implication I Think You are Making
Neither Jordan nor Flip Saunders has shown the flexibility to adapt to rosters as well as one might like.
…
Flip may have lasted extremely long in Minnesota, but then the Wolves’ roster was pretty darned stable for long stretches of that run, and he had players from the deep bench up to Garnett playing his jump shots-oriented offense.
It sounds like you are saying that Flip either needs the right mix of players or needs many seasons to train them into his system in order for him to be successful. This ignores the fact that Flip took over a miserable team with no history that had never made the playoffs and got them into the playoffs in his first full season. The Timberwolves went from 26-56 in 1995-96 to 40-42 and a playoff berth in Flip’s first full season in 1996-97. While your other points may certainly be valid, what this fact indicates to me is that it doesn’t take Flip long to implement his style and make it successful. I expect results this season, not 3-4 seasons down the road.
Another thing to consider is his performance in Detroit. Yes, he never got them back to the Finals, but he did keep them on the doorstep with plenty of chances to get back there despite having a completely different coaching style and philosophy than Larry Brown. There was very little drop-off due to adjusting to Flip. He took over a team that was ready to compete for a championship when healthy and kept them competing for a championship immediately.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
The reason that Flip's system works
is that it’s simple NBA Basketball. Pick-and-roll. Back screens, curls, double screens, and lots of movement.
Saunders, unlike Eddie Jordan, will continue to run a play, or go to the hot hand, until the other team adjusts. He’ll pick-and-roll you to death (like Jerry Sloan); or run the same double baseline screen to get his shooting guard open (Rip Hamilton, etc) – time after time.
He may have a huge playbook – and they may run all those plays and variations in practice; but during a game, I’ll bet he doesn’t run more that 5 or 6 different plays. He’ll run what works.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
The more important thing
Is that it’s a different type of big playbook. Whereas Eddie Jordan’s offense was mostly reading and reacting, Flip’s is all set plays. There are a lot of guys on the Wizards who don’t work well in a read and react offense. They need some structure to run in and Flip’s “system” provides more of that.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I think
that this is why I still voted for Eddie. Not so much that I would rather stil have Eddie, but that I think that Ernie hamstrung him by drafting players not suited for his system. When a player such as Songalia or Daniels (who worked in Eddie’s system) were obtained, one saw how effective the Princeton could be.
So I think the jury is still out for me. I don’t think Eddie ever really got a fair shake in terms of personnel, but it was time for a change.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Pick and Roll?
The Wolves’ unwillingness to run a P&R was much bemoaned by the team’s fans.
Does simple NBA basketball involve jump shots on every possession? Does it necessarily involve conservative point guard play meant to enhance Assist-to-Turnover ratios? Because those are definitely conspicuous traits of Flip’s offense.
The Wolves’ unwillingness to run a P&R was much bemoaned by the team’s fans.
Maybe I’m not understanding the Hawk at all, but doesn’t all the action get initiated by a p&r?
That, in combination with elbow backscreens for the shooting guard
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Simple
as in “OPEN” jump shots… not the kind with only 3 seconds left in the clock, that you have to chuck up because your Princeton “weave” ate up 20 seconds of the shot clock without producing a lay-up.
Simple = as in multiple players involved in setting screens, moving and cutting – as opposed to “ok, we ran the weave – and the ball ended up in Antonio Daniels’ hands at the 3-point line – SHOOT”
Simple – as in, yes – even protecting the ball… and running actual plays that get players open – as opposed to the same weave, over and over again, all game long, until, in the 4th quarter, an opponent (having seen the same thing 50 times) steps into a passing lane for a steal and break-away.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
It seems you both have different definitions of "simple"
Feral sees “simple” as “flexible.” Rook sees “simple” as “fundamentally sound.”
Here’s how I see it:
Flip’s offense is not “simple” in terms of being easy to pick up or flexible, but it does lend itself well to role specificity. In that sense, it’s simple. The Princeton was way more “flexible” with roles, but that also probably confused a lot of our young players and encouraged them to try to be good at everything instead of being great at one thing.
That’s why, I think, in this case, while Flip’s often not been good for developing players, it’ll work with us. The biggest problem with so many of our prospects is that they don’t stick to their strengths. They try to do everything. Certainly, that’s a problem with Blatche and McGee, and to a lesser extent, it’s a problem with Young. Eddie’s Princeton system didn’t encourage those guys to stick to their strengths. Flip’s system may not be good for them to develop into superstars, but it will make them great role players because it’ll get them to understand where they can actually help the team the most.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
So
You liked seeing Nick curling off baseline screens too?
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I do, yes
Coming out of college, Nick was known for being a scorer and not much else. That allows him to play better to his strengths.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
exactly
the Princeton offense, I hate to say this, was originated because Princeton consisted of a bunch of guys, mostly short and white, who couldn’t compete with the big boys talent-wise. So Pete Carril came up with this constant weave that was meant to confuse the other team into a mismatch. The problem is it has to be executed to perfection, meaning NO MISTAKES. That just doesn’t happen in the NBA. I’m not saying the Princeton offense doesn’t work. I was in an Ocean City tournament years ago and we got beat by a version of the offense. We were one of the favorites to win the whole thing, and were much more talented than the other team, which literally consisted of 5 white guys who were 5’10 or 5’11, while I as the shortest on my team at 6’2.
I’m not trying to harken back here, just making the point that the Princeton offense is basically a gimmick that works against physically superior teams when executed to perfection. Or at least helps level the playing field. But it is not a great offense for the NBA, and not the least bit exciting.
Exactly
Gimmick – perfect description.
Belongs right up there with the 4-Corner Offense
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Oh I strongly, strongly, strongly disagree
Gimmick! I don’t you can get close to an NBA Championship like the Sacramento Kings did running a gimmick. To me the Kings ran the Princeton in a way that was aggressive that got them open looks quick (and they ran it more often).
It’s not like the Wizards ran the Princeton all the time either, especially when Gilbert was healthy. It’s just my opinion but to me the NBA is a great place to run the Princeton offense because players here are more athletic and big players are better at passing (especially from the top of the key) and jump shooting than they are at college.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Jul 22, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Gimmicks
can work, but are eventually figured out. Yes, the Kings ran it better than any other NBA team because they had the best passing bigs in the league. Realistically, ANY offense will work if everyone on the team is a good passer. Then you had the Nets, who had Jason Kidd, one of the best passers in NBA history. Again, good passers make any offense work. The problem with the Wizards is they didn’t/don’t have any great passers. So they pass the ball around the top of the key until there’s 3 seconds on the clock, then someone goes 1 on 1. Very frustrating. But I stand by my original statement. The Princeton offense was designed to trick a superior team into making a mistake. To me, that’s a gimmick.
Also
The Kings didn’t really run the pure Princeton, while the Nets were not a very good offensive team when they made it to the Finals. They got there on the strength of their defense and transition play.
I think you could argue that the Wizards ran the pure Princeton better than any NBA team in history.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
It's interesting
That the only team running the Princeton Offense was the Wizards (and now, presumably the 76ers)….
The NBA is a copy-cat league…. If something is working, everyone will try to emulate it.
Mobile big men…. Super quick Point Guards….. “Athletic” Wings….. And then when someone goes back to basic “old time” basketball (throw the ball into your All-Star big man, and let him either get the basket, draw the foul, or draw a double team and kick it out to a wide open shooter) – it looks all brand new again.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Not quite what I'm saying
Don’t get me wrong, I really like Flip. I’ve sat and talked to the guy in the airport once. He’s a good guy, and a solid and interesting coach, and I rooted for him to get over the top with the Pistons. When it was them and the Celtics in the ECF series, I would have been fine seeing either him or KG get their day in the sun.
But Flip puts in his system, and there are definitely times when he at least plays people away from their strengths as a result. You’re going to see that this year. With young players in particular, it can shape the development of a player’s game in ways that are exasperating. The young KG did not necessarily need to spend years with a turnaround fadeaway as his late-game go-to move. He learned that under Saunders.
Flip also, when players don’t quite match up to the tasks he’s assigned them, has a little bit of a doghouse thing he’ll go to. Not highly unusual, but again, it feels like the system is driving.
The young KG did not necessarily need to spend years with a turnaround fadeaway as his late-game go-to move
I dunno – seems kinda effective to me… sorta like a young big man developing a sky hook, or the Big E and his turn around off the glass…..
Flip also, when players don’t quite match up to the tasks he’s assigned them, has a little bit of a doghouse thing he’ll go to. Not highly unusual, but again, it feels like the system is driving.
Show me a Head Basketball Coach (High School, College, or Professional) – other than Mike Brown of the Cavaliers – that says to his player “I want you to do X”, and the player consistently does “Y” – and then DOESN’T sit that player down.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Even I voted for Flip Saunders
…..Even though Jordan should not have been fired.
I’m with Prada’s “new voice” assessment … Hopefully Flip has the right pitch and tone.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
by Kyle Weidie on Jul 21, 2009 7:47 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
What’s up with coaches named Saunders bringing heavy playbooks to town, anyway?
Look Mr. James, I lived near the Chesapeake Bay for the first 21 years of my life, at times as close as a 5 minute walk. I know about crabs. And let me tell you something about crabs: they travel every time they get in the lane.
I liked Eddie but
if the 3 point defense improves, I’ll love Flip.
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