Why Ricky Rubio could be BETTER than advertized
by Rook6980 on Jun 29, 2009 10:18 PM EDT
75 comments
It's the current fashion to point at failed European players and say - "Look, there is why Ricky Rubio will not be able to contribute."
"They" have trouble integrating their games into the NBA style. "They" take longer to develop than U.S. College players. "They" are more likely to be a bust than a star. "They" come over too young. "They" are too mechanical. "They" are soft. {edit} "They" are all hype. {edit}
Well if the First Law of Tim Duncan states that the more college basketball experience a player has, the more polished his skills are, the more seasoned his character is and the more prepared for NBA success he will be. - - - -
Then the Second Law should state that the more Professional Basketball experience a player has, in the top European Leagues, the more polished his skills will be, the more seasoned his character will be, and the more prepared for NBA success he will be than a college player.
The best Leagues, with the highest level talent are in Spain, Greece and Italy; followed closely by the Russian SuperLeague and the Serbian SuperLeague . Those leagues all contain talented players, and are considered better (talent wise) than the NCAA Division 1 College basketball system. Other Leagues, like Turkey and Lithuania are very good, but not quite at NCAA Division 1 Talent level. Then there's the French League, and followed by (in no particular order) Poland, Croatia, Portugal, Netherlands, UK, etc...
The top division of the Spanish League is called the ACB (Asociación de Clubs de Baloncesto). The Spanish league is rated as one of the three "A" level European domestic leagues in the ULEB League Rankings system. The other two top rated Leagues are Italian League A, and the Greek A1 League.
The reason for the EuroLeague lesson is to point out that players in the top divisions in Spain, Italy or Greece are playing against a higher level of talent than players in the NCAA, or other EuroLeague Countries.
Let's discect the the history of international players drafted in the Lottery, since 2003; and then try to compare their experience and talent level to Ricky Rubio. Nearly all the European Lottery picks, except Andris Biedrins, have been considered failures; or at least, have not lived up to expectations; and even Biedrins struggled for a couple of years, before putting it together.
Darko Milicic , 24 Years Old , Drafted in the 1st Round, Pick #2 in 2003 by the Pistons. An 18 year old player, taken with practically NO International experience. He played 2 years in the Serbian League (Serbia is a "B level" European basketball league).
European Awards:
2001 European Cadet Champion
2002 Under-20 World Champion
Mickael Pietrus , 27 Years Old , Drafted Rnd 1, Pick 11 in 2003 by Warriors. Made his Professional debut at 17 years old, playing for Pau-ORthez in the French Pro-A League (an "A Level" European basketball league). He played 4 years for Pau-Orthez before being drafted at 21 years old by the Golden State Warriors. Pietrus averaged 9.4 points in 24 minutes per game for Orlando last year.
European Awards: None?
Andris Biedrins , 23 Years Old , Drafted Rnd 1, Pick 11 in 2004 by the Warriors. Started playing Professionally at 16 years old for team BK Skonto in the Latvian Basketball League (LBL). He played 2 years in the LBL before being drafted as an 18 years old by the Warriors in 2004. Incredibly raw when he was drafted at 18 years old, with very little International experience (in a "B" level European basketball league); Biedrins took two years before starting to pay
dividends for the Warriors, and is just now, at 23, rounding into a solid NBA player. Biedrins averaged 11 points and 11 rebounds in 30 minutes per game last year.
European Awards: Latvian League Newcomer of the Year.
Fran Vazquez, 26 Years Old , Drafted Rnd 1, Pick 11 in 2005 by Magic - Currently plays for FC Barcelona in the ACB division of the Spanish League. Has never played in the NBA. 8 years experience in the EuroLeague and ACB. By the way, if this guy ever comes over to play for Orlando, he will be very good. A long, athletic 6'10" defensive stopper. He's an excellent rebounder and the best shot blocker in Spain. Not much of a shooter; he gets most of his points in transition and in the immediate basket area. He's quick enough to defend the pick-and-roll, and can step out and contest shooters. It appears however, that Vasques would rather be a big fish in a small pond, than swim in the big waters of the NBA.
European Awards: None?
Yaroslav Korolev , 22 Years Old , Drafted Rnd 1, Pick 12 in 2005 by Clippers - Played 1 year CSKA Moscow in the Russian Super League before being drafted at 18 years old by the Clippers. Played 2 seasons in the NBA for the Clippers and went back to CSKA Moscow after the 2007 season ended.
European Awards: None?
Andrea Bargnani, 23 Years Old , Drafted Rnd 1, Pick 1 in 2006 by Raptors, Played 3 years for Pallacanestro Treviso in the Italian Serie A League. Bargnani has played 3 years for the NBA Toronto Raptors, averaging 15.4 points and 5.2 rebounds in 31 minutes per game last year.
European Awards: Euroleague Rising Star Award 2005–06
Yi Jianlian, 24 years old , Drafted Rnd 1, Pick 6 in 2007 by Bucks. Played 4 years for Guangdong in the CBA (Chinese Basketball Association). Very little information is available about the level of talent in the CBA.
European Awards: Finals Most Valuable Player (MVP) honor in 2006
Danilo Gallinari, 20 Years Old , Drafted Rnd 1, Pick 6 in 2008 by Knicks. Started playing for Olimpia Milano in the Italian Serie A League in 2006. Played 2 years in the Italian Serie A League, before being drafted at 19 years old in 2008. Because of back problems, Gallinari only played 28 games for New York his Rookie season, averaging 6.1 points in 15 minutes per game.
European Awards: Italian league All Star Game 3-Point Shootout Champion 2007
Euroleague Rising Star Award 2007-08
Ricky Rubio , 18 years old , Drafted Rnd 1, Pick 5 in 2009 by Timberwolves. At 14 years old, Rubio started playing for DKV Joventut in the ACB division of the Spanish League (The ACB division is an "A" League European basketball league). Rubio has played 4 years for DKV Joventut, playing as many as 50 games per year (34 in the ACB division, and up to 16 in the EuroCup - compare that to a normal College schedule of 30 games, plus a handful of Conference or NCAA playoff games).
European Awards:
Won the bronze medal at the FIBA Europe Under-16 Championship (2005)
Won the gold medal at the FIBA Europe Under-16 Championship (2006)
FIBA Europe Under-16 Championship MVP (2006)
Won 3 Catalan National Leagues (2005, 2007, 2008)
Won the FIBA EuroCup Championship (2006)
Led the Spanish ACB League in steals (2007, 2009)
Won the Spanish ACB League Rising Star Award (2007)
2-Time FIBA European Young Player of the Year (2007, 2008)
Won the Spanish King's Cup (2008)
Won the ULEB Cup Championship (2008)
All-Spanish ACB League Team (2008)
Voted the Spanish ACB League's Best Point Guard (2008)
Mr. Europa European Player of the Year (2008)
Spanish ACB League Defensive Player of the Year (2009)
Named to the 2008 Spanish Olympic Team
Won the silver medal at the 2008 Olympics Basketball Tournament
One of the players drafted never even came over to play in the NBA (Vazquez). Some of the International players drafted recently, have had very little (2-years or less) actual Professional experience before they were drafted (Biedrins, Korolev, Milicic, Gallinari). Some of them played in lower level leagues, against inferior talent (Milicic, Biedrins, Yi Jianlian). Bargnani was just drafted too high.. had he been drafted in the 12-14 range, he would be
considered a draft "success".
So, to recap:
Milicic and Korolev - Both have to be considered busts. Both had practically no experience overseas before being drafted.
Mickael Pietrus - He is a rotation player, so I guess he could be considered a mild success. He played 3 years in a "B" Level league.
Andrea Bargnani - For where he was drafted (#1 overall in 2006) and considering that some players picked after him have had success (Rudy Gay, Brandon Roy, etc..), Bargnani should be considered a disappointment. However, he still has some time to develop, and 15 points and 5 rebounds is NOT terrible. He had 3-years in the Italian League.
Yi Jianlian and Danilo Gallinari - It's too early to tell whether either will be a successful player or not.
Andris Biedrins - He should probably be considered a successful draft pick. Played 3 seasons in the Italian League ("A" level League)
I hope everyone sees that there's a pattern here. Players with more experience, in the tougher European Leagues, tend to be better players in the NBA.
Now let's compare that to Rubio's experience; FOUR years playing in the best league not called the National Basketball Association. He has played more than 135 Professional games. (The average Freshman one-and-done draftee probably played no more than 35 games, TOTAL). He's been named best Point Guard in his League; All-Spanish League (All-Star equivalent); Defensive Player of the Year; Won Championships; Won Tournaments; Won Olympic Silver. He was the youngest player to ever start an Olympic Finals.
Kobe Bryant said "He's played awesome, He alone changed the course of some games."
Chris Paul said "what he has already done is crazy! He is just 17 years old. I am 23 and have been 3 years in college and then 3 in the NBA to be able to play in the Olympics. He will come to the NBA to steal my job."
Dwyane Wade said "He's fast, he's young and he goes a hundred miles an hour, Plus, his ability to play at the Olympic level shows a lot of character. Right now he's playing off of sheer will. Once he gets to know the game a little better, he's going to be phenomenal."
And there are those out there that still doubt the kid.
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Insightful post. I maintain that the buy out was one of the main reasons he slid to 5th.
I do expect him to be a Steve Nash type player, only with less point scoring.
by Jeremybozz on Jun 29, 2009 10:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i won't root against rubio
i’m looking forward to seeing him play. (hopefully he plays this year.)
but i think the odds of looking back on this trade like the ike austin move are slim.
hopefully it’s more like jamison for devin harris (all-star).
by DarrellWalkerFan on Jun 29, 2009 10:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I won't root against him either.
I think it’s extremely doubtful that Ernie would have kept him on the team even if he drafted him. Can’t blame Rubio for that. I was excited to see him play in the NBA before the draft and I’ll be excited when he plays, regardless of the fact that he slipped to 5th and we weren’t there to “get him.”
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 29, 2009 10:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yi was rookie of the year in his Chinese league and led his team to the championship 3 years in a row, winning the finals MVP at least one of those years (not European, but Chinese league).
by MR on Jun 29, 2009 11:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This post explains the hype beyond Rubio, but that was already self-evident.
by Aldo on Jun 29, 2009 11:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This post does nothing to explain the "hype"
.. but instead tries to explain why (in my opinion) a European player, with a lot of talent, and with 4-years experience in a more difficult and talented League than the NCAA, should be a better player than almost every other player drafted this year.
In the right system (are you listening Mike D’Antoni and the Knicks?), Rubio could be an All-Star next year. Even in the wrong system (like with the Wizards, or Minnesota, or Utah, or Cleveland) he would be an All-Star – it would just take more time.
If I had wanted to explain the “Hype” – there are plenty of Rubio highlight videos on YouTube, Spanish speaking websites dedicated to La Pistola, Sports Illustrated and ESPN the Magazine articles, fan sites, and videos of screaming teenage girls…
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Jun 29, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please
“Steven Nash with defense”? The “next Pete Maravich”? No way he slips past 4?
This is pure hype and it’s kind of irresponsible.
by Aldo on Jun 29, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do recall - on draft night - stating that I thought Rubio would never slip past 4
But it was NOT in my front page post.
That comment on draft night was not “hype” but rather based on logic.
The Clippers were obviously taking Griffin.
I can understand Memphis being leery of drafting Rubio – given his Agent’s threats. And although I think he’s a bit overrated, Thabeet gives the Grizzlies some much need shot blocking.
I also understand Oklahoma City drafting James Harden. They already have a pretty good PG in Russell Westbrook, and needed a Shooting Guard. Harden was the best SG available.
But Sacramento desperately needed a Point Guard. They have a good young core that includes Center Spencer Hawes, PF Jason Thompson and Shooting Guards Kevin Martin and Francisco Garcia. Sacramento only has one Point Guard on the roster, and he’s not particularly that good; and he’s a shoot-first type guy. Beno Udrih was a poor passer (4.7 Assists per game), and had difficulties creating good shots for his teammates.
Rubio was the perfect fit. A pass-first PG, with finishers like Thompson, Garcia and Martin on the other end of those passes.
Instead, Sacramento drafted a shoot-first, ball dominant Guard. Tyreke Evans. Don’t get me wrong… I like Tyreke Evans. He’s a spectacular and exciting player with excellent athleticism. But there’s only one ball… and Kevin Martin is a player that needs the ball (24.7 usage rate); so I don’t know how Evans and Martin can co-exist in the same back court.
As to your other comments – I don’t believe I said anything in my post about “next Pete Maravich” or “Steve Nash with Defense” – I was trying to be careful to avoid unsupported hyperbole, in a front page post. As a matter of fact, everything that I posted after the jump were pure facts. Actually, so dry as to possibly border on boring. The only opinions I posted were not mine – Awesome, Crazy and Phenomenal were the opinions of Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant. Three rather respected figures in the Basketball world. They certainly should carry more weight than any of my opinions.
I’m also unsure whether I’m insulted about the “irresponsible” remark.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Jun 30, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question
Who were/are Rubio’s teammates? Besides his Olympic teams, how do his club teams stack up in terms of surrounding talent?
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Jun 30, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
rook -- thanks, i am now full of angst again
rubio is going to be great.
think john elway. think peyton manning. woops, wrong sport but you get the idea — rubio is that caliber QB on the hardwood.
by ucantstopbernard on Jun 30, 2009 12:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Let's face it
Rubio would probably have stayed in Spain if the Wizards drafted him, so I’m fine with the trade…
Not sure he was a good fit on this team anyway, unless they could convert Gilbert to a SG. On the other hand, I would have paid real money to watch a second unit with Ricky Rubio, Nick Young, Dominic McGuire, Andray Blatche and JaVale McGee….
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Jun 30, 2009 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
San Antonio drafted David Robinson knowing he had to serve in the Navy for 2 years
Should they have drafted Armon Gilliam instead? Portland picked Sam Bowie because they already had Clyde Drexler, one of the NBA’s 50 best players, at SG.
You don’t pass on talent like this. Especially not because his agent is being noisy, and because you already have someone at his position who, by the way, has missed about 150 games the last two seasons.
by disgrunted on Jun 30, 2009 5:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Problem
With your examples is that they are anecdotal. Most teams that draft high know they are probably going to suck for a few more years anyway, so they can afford to swing for the fences and wait several years for their guy to develop. Every once in awhile they connect on one.
And please, the Sam Bowie thing is really overblown. Here is a quote from Houston’s coach Bill Fitch, whose team took Hakeem Olajuwon:
“Jack (Ramsay, the Trail Blazers’ coach) took a lot of heat for that,” recalled Bill Fitch, then Houston’s coach. "But Sam Bowie … if you asked (23) teams then, if anyone looked at his need, it was a Sam Bowie. Had Sam stayed healthy, he was a can’t-miss. I had Sam later in New Jersey and he was as good a passing center as there was. Had Bowie stayed healthy, Jack had a chance to win championships with that team. He got hurt, Jordan came on.
“What Jack did was right,” Fitch insisted. “All of us at the time would have done the same thing.”
Yeah, sure, it’s easy to criticize the pick now, which is ironic coming from fans of a team that took Kwame Brown over Pau Gasol and Joe Johnson. But it was a legitimate point that Portland was loaded at SG, with Hall of Famer Clyde Drexler and All-Star Jim Paxson. And nobody had a clue that MJ was going to be the player he was, not even Rod Thorn, the guy who drafted him. Who is to say he would have been great if he never even got to see the floor?
Of course, you never hear about the extremely talented guys who would have made it big had they had room at their position to develop. Why not? Because they never developed. Jeff Van Gundy talked during the draft about drafting three talented forwards in the early to mid-90s with the Knicks, but they never developed because they couldn’t get enough playing time. I don’t even remember their names, go figure.
The fact is, if drafting for need was so stupid, then GMs would stop doing it. And there is a legitimate reason that Fegan does not want Ricky Rubio to play for Washington, personal feelings towards Gilbert aside.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 30, 2009 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are referencing the infamous
Dontae Jones
Walter McCarty
John Wallace
draft, which I have used as demonstration of how EG kinda sucks at drafting people.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Jun 30, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't Every GM Hit or Miss?
Some pretty good people EG has drafted for our team:
Michael Redd (2nd round)
Andray Blatche (2nd round)
Dominic McGuire (2nd round)
JaVale McGee (17th overall)
Nick Young (16th overall)
Now, none of those guys other than Redd have been overly fantastic, but I consider them all good value picks considering where they were drafted.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 30, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
I shouldn’t have said EG drafted Michael Redd for our team, obviously.
I started the list with the intention of pointing out draft values he picked, but then changed focus to only include our team, without deleting Michael Redd.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 30, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not a problem
I think if you take in the entirety of EG’s reign in NY, he had a pretty horrible history of drafting.
I can’t fault you pointing out his Wiz picks – but I would come right back with Pech or Hayes as proof that I think EG tends to pride himself a bit too much on the “diamond in the rough” player.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Jun 30, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I knew the list of honors for Rubio was long . . .
but not that long. That is one of the reason I wore black the next day.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Jun 30, 2009 12:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't know much about these leagues
But if the talent is better there than in college, then how come you can find a few players from just about every class from the Big East or ACC that become NBA all-star caliber players, but zero from those leagues to date? I have trouble buying the argument that the talent is better there. Maybe it’s worse at the top but better in the middle at at the bottom?
It would be illuminating to have those other players’ final year’s stats for their european teams. Is that available?
Rook, Your history for Biedrins doesn’t mention 3 years in the Italian “A” level league…nor does Wikipedia. I’ll assume that was an honest mistake. I’d actually point him out as a counter-argument since I think he’s the best player listed here.
by steadyhand on Jun 30, 2009 1:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That is a good point
but the answer might lie in the fact that the although the stars might not be as good as those on some NCAA teams, the role players are miles better, which really increases the competition.
An example might be something like Kansas State with Beasely and Walker, with a bunch of players nowhere near there level. Then if you compare that to Olympiacos they have Jannero Pargo, Josh Childrese, and Yotam Halperin, surrounded by players like Lynn Greer, Ian Vouyoukas, and Yiannis Bouroussis, you can start to see that the top is not as good but the surrounding talent is worlds better than the NCAA.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
I will talk about DeJuan Blair no more forever
by jonestr on Jun 30, 2009 3:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do know a little about these leagues and a lot about Rubio...
I’m a Detroiter and part time bball coach who has been living in Spain for eight years, the talent level is for real. Just to name a few ACB players off the top of my head who have faired fairly well in the ÑBA; The Gasols, Jose Calderon, Luis Scola… Pau has already been an all-star and from what i understand Jose was snubbed two years ago. Actually, maybe you haven’t heard but NBA teams have lost more than a few pre-season games in Europe over the past few years, source nba.com:
Philadelphia 99 – Barcelona 104
LA Clippers 75 – Moscow 94
Toronto 103 – Real Madrid 104
Memphis 99 – Unicaja Malaga 102
The top euro squads have at least two or three players who could easily make an NBA roster.
As far as stats, they can be very deceiving in Europe because most team’s star players don’t average 30 min a game and the team concept makes their stats seem weak.
Bottom line, Ricky will be a stud and i would dare say a future hall of famer. True, he doesn’t have an NBA frame or a great jump shot but it’s irrelevant because that’s not his game and will never be his game. The best comparison i can think of is a combiation of Bird’s court awareness, Magic’s ability to lead the break plus Jason William’s panache.
Time will tell but I’ve never seen anything like him…
by garciaumich on Jun 30, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the info
I’m not completely sold, but this is some of the best support I’ve heard yet. I still can’t shake the fact that there are several NBA washouts starring in that league.
by steadyhand on Jun 30, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The truth is,
like most players, he’s somewhere in the middle; meaning that it’s going to be up to him if he wants to be a “great player:”
“Rubio isn’t very quick, isn’t very strong, and isn’t a very good shooter,” says the player, who was a record-setting point guard for a mid-Division I college. “What he can do is play hard, see the floor, deliver the ball, be totally unselfish, and make terrific decisions.”
by Pryme on Jun 30, 2009 8:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
unathletic players have much harder transitions. Plus not being a good shooter, defenders can just sag of him, and clog up passing lanes.
Very insightful analysis, and I think playing against the better competition will help him make a quicker transition that other international players, but I still dont think he is going to be a star. Nor do I think he fits well with our team as they are currently constructed. Both Gil and Rubio need the ball in their hands to be effective.
What I do believe, is that the wiz should have waited until their pick before trading. While I am excited about what Foye and Miller can bring to the Wiz, I think they could have gotten more for Rubio
by Blatche4MVP on Jun 30, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please noo more im starting to get depressed lol
yeah odds are that Rubio is going to be a game changing MONSTER in 2 or 3 years dammit lol
by eltacoman on Jun 30, 2009 8:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
but dont get me wrong im happy with what we got right now
we are just one PF or C piece away from being Crazy good
i cant wait till the season starts
by eltacoman on Jun 30, 2009 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Until
Rubio comes over here and puts up solid performances night in and night out, he will continue to be more hype than substance to me. The list of his European awards is long, but not nearly as long as the list of “can’t miss, surefire” NBA prospects that turned out to be busts. He has a lot to prove before I will annoint him greatness at this level.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 30, 2009 9:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you saying that the Wizards should have passed on Blake Griffin, too?
He is a “can’t miss, surefire NBA prospect,” too. Hasn’t proven anything in the NBA or any professional ranks. If he is different than Rubio on this point, why?
by disgrunted on Jun 30, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
If your question was, “are you saying we shouldn’t annoint NBA greatness on Blake Griffin too?”, then the obvious answer is yes. There are no guarantees on him, either, especially with him now going to the Clippers.
If we were at the top of the draft, I would say Griffin is more worth the risk, because he would both add something to our team that we don’t already have and there would be no threat of him not playing for us were we to draft him.
If he is different than Rubio on this point, why?
No team passed on Blake Griffin. Exactly four other teams, including one that desperately needed a good passing point guard, said thanks but no thanks to Ricky Rubio.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 30, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t understand the point about Griffin being different than Rubio because he would add something different to the team. Your argument is that Rubio wouldn’t get time behind Arenas. The Wizards have all stars at both forward spots, and Griffin is a power forward. I don’t see the difference.
If you have to base your argument on the notion that teams passed on him, including lowly Sacramento, then I guess we will have to conclude that Blair will be a terrible player, because 36 teams passed on him, some of them twice, and only after all of those teams passed was he picked by the smartest team in the league.
by disgrunted on Jun 30, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps
The Wizards have all stars at both forward spots, and Griffin is a power forward. I don’t see the difference.
It is not a very strong point, on its own, but it is not something I feel very strongly about either. I’m not one who thinks that even Blake Griffin would be the savior that many here think he would have been for us. I personally feel that the Wizards need interior toughness and sound fundamental rebounding more than we need better guard play, but that’s just my opinion. There were questions about Blake Griffin’s defense that concerned me, but the point is now moot. After the ping pong balls bounced the way they did, there was nothing we could have done to get Blake Griffin. And even if the ping pong balls did bounce our way, I would have taken him, but wouldn’t be bragging about how we got the next Karl Malone until I actually saw the kid play and consistently dominate.
Also, you clearly missed the italicized and in my comment above. We can argue about whether we need interior toughness more or less than we need a flashy point guard. But what sealed it for me was the uncertainty we would have faced of ever getting Rubio to suit up for us. That is why four teams passed on him, and went with guys that they knew were actually going to show up and play.
I’m not sure where you were going with the DeJuan Blair argument. Will he be a certain failure because he was picked in the second round? Of course not. I think he will be rather good, although he is not as good a fit for us the more I analyzed the situation and put thought into it. Now, is he a sure-fire, can’t miss kind of good? Hardly. I wouldn’t bet my house on it, and I doubt you would either.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 30, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You and I don't disagree that much
I think adding Rubio and Griffin would have been great for the Wizards, regardless of the all-stars playing in front of them. Situations where a really talented player sits behind an all-star tend to shake out over time, either through injuries, trades, or smart coaches making it work.
I know you are a big proponent of Blair, and although I don’t feel as strongly, I think he will be good (if his knees hold up), a solid rotation player for years to come. My point was that the fact so many teams passed on him is no more accurate a prediction of his future than the fact that Rubio dropped to 5th. I think Rubio dropped at least in part due to mishandling of the situation by Fegan.
The point on which I disagree with a lot of people on this board is the view that Rubio would never have played for Washington anyway. I am a lawyer, so I understand what Fegan is doing, how he is doing it, etc. He’s trying to get Rubio in what he feels is the best situation for him (and he is doing it clumsily, in my opinion), and like it or not, making threats is part of lawyerly positioning. I can tell you there is probably a zero percent chance that Rubio will decide to never play in the NBA if Minnesota refuses to trade his rights. Fegan is trying to make it seem that way, but attorney arguments are just that — arguments. Losing arguments eventually give way to reality. Either Fegan will prevail and get a trade, Fegan will fail and give in, or Rubio will fire Fegan. One way or another, Rubio will play in the NBA.
by disgrunted on Jun 30, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One Thing to Consider
Kahn made a smart play by taking Flynn immediately after Rubio. He is in a clear rebuilding situation, and so he can afford to play hardball with the Spanish sensation. If he doesn’t like the offers he gets from other teams, he can sit on his hands and play Flynn while he waits for Rubio to decide what to do. If necessary, he can even afford to let Rubio go back to Spain for a season or two until the contract over there works itself out.
The Wizards don’t have that luxury. We are committed to “win now”. If we drafted Rubio, and he and his agent played hardball with us, we would be against a wall. If Rubio went back to Spain without us getting any immediate compensation, it would be a catastrophe, as I said in another thread. Ernie can’t really afford to play this game. But Kahn can.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 30, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually think drafting Flynn was really dumb
Because I honestly wonder whether Rubio’s camp would be making the same stink if that didn’t happen. The “too cold” thing probably would have come into play, but a lot of Rubio’s concerns probably have to do with feeling threatened by another rookie point.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Jun 30, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, Fegan was going to whine one way or another
The Flynn pick just gave him another thing to complain about.
by disgrunted on Jun 30, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On second thought, I think you may be right
Why not just pick Stephon Curry, who can play point, but who also could mesh better with Rubio?
by disgrunted on Jun 30, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s accurate, in so far as the approach that Grunfeld has taken.
But I would argue that Grunfeld shouldn’t be taking that approach. He has an obligation to provide for BOTH the near and long term health of the franchise. This “win now” approach is shortsighted, both because the talent of the team is not championship caliber, and because you don’t pass on great talent that might not help you during the next two years, but would for the following ten. (And with that rationale, Grunfeld shouldn’t have picked McGee last year, and should trade him this summer because he is not ready to contribute more than a handful of minutes this season. If Grunfeld is going to roll out the “win now” excuse to explain one move, he should be consistent and apply it to all personnel.)
by disgrunted on Jun 30, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is it a losing argument?
From where Fegan is sitting, he holds all the cards. Rubio is good enough to go sign with Real Madrid or another Euro team for a tidy pile and wait until the Wolves are desperate enough to trade his rights to a team of his choosing (see Navarro, Juan Carlos). This is the preeminent danger with European players, unlike recent NCAA graduates, they are already accustomed to the European game and can still make money.
And you still, after all this time, haven’t addressed the question of why Rubio would be willing to play 10-15 behind Gilbert for three years when his feather are already ruffled by the Flynn pick.
The best chance the Wolves have of bringing him under the tend is to make this too expensive for Rubio to handle. Make him hire a whole bunch of lawyers, those who have experience in contract law ect and attempt to smoke him out.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Jun 30, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a losing argument because Rubio wants to play in the NBA. Fegan doesn’t hold all of the cards — if Rubio wants to play in the NBA, Minnesota holds all of the cards. Fegan can bluff about Rubio staying in Europe for one year, two years, his entire career, but someone who was good enough to play in Europe’s best league when he was 14 isn’t going to stay there forever.
I don’t know why Rubio would only play 10-15 minutes a game. Play Gil at the point 24 minutes a game, and at SG 14 minutes. That gives Rubio 24 minutes at the point for starters (if he is ready for that much time at the beginning of his rookie season). If the Gilbert-Rubio combo works, expand Rubio’s minutes at PG and Gil’s at SG. If it doesn’t, then the Wizards could move Rubio or Gilbert. I don’t see it being much of a problem because Gil is a combo guard and has played off of the ball a lot in his career.
by disgrunted on Jun 30, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because Gil
has been really open to the idea of SG in the past?
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Jun 30, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, what cupp is saying
Is that there are too many extenuating circumstances to say that not drafting Rubio is a complete failure on the Wizards part.
Thus far, Rubio has not made a strong indication that he wants to come over right now. If he does come over in 2-3 years, the Wizards will have missed their opportunity to compete right now. Plus, every indication is that Rubio – even after spending 2-3 years in the uniform of the team that drafted him, is going to bolt to the largest market possible to maximize his earning potential. And unlike other superstars (which we don’t even know if Rubio is that top tier) he doesn’t have hometown roots to lure him in place.
If I was Minnesota, I would hate to spend three years developing Rubio, only to watch him leave for NY or LA after his time is done.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Jun 30, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is an interesting post...
And it demonstrates that Rubio has a better than average chance be a good NBA player, but it doesn’t show he is some sort of lock to be a “franchise” type player, which is what the hyperventilation about him seems to suggest — for him to justify the hype he can’t just be Rajon Rondo good, he has to be Chris Paul good. To mix sports, he is now Eli Manning, to shrug off being a disappointment he has to achieve at the very highest level.
Just look at your own list, is anyone on it worth Miller and Foye? Admittedly you dealt yourself a bum hand by leaving off Parker, Ginobili and Dirk but the volume of “above average” players with some busts in your list is telling. Darko was so hyped he was taken ahead of Carmello, think about where Detroit would be now. Foreign leagues are a great source of players and the competition at the highest levels may be above NCAA but the draft is still a crapshoot. This is particularly true for point guards, think of all the top flight NCAA point guards who can’t cut it, vs. the guys that develop late or fall in the drafty like Nash and Gilbert.
The Wizards may regret not taking him, but they are just as likely to regret not getting someone else, because that’s how the draft works. There is always someone good that you could have drafted that you didn’t, because there are always successful players in each draft. The problem is you don’t know for sure who they are. Think of the teams who already wish they had taken McGee.
Finally, I still reserve a certain amount of skepticism about any league that can have a meaningful competitor that is 14 years old, no matter how talented. Could Lebron have played meaningful minutes for a good NCAA team at 14?
by NeverNervousPervis on Jun 30, 2009 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
extremely
good post. I was already gonna root for Rubio no matter where. he went. He looked like an exciting player in the Olympics, and I’ll remember Chris Paul giving him a ringing endorsement. Frankly, I’ll take the word f Paul, Kobe, Deron Williams, etc., over the word of the supposed “experts.” I do think he’s going to be very good, maybe even great. That’s my opinion, and it’s backed by the opinion of MANY others. Does that mean he’s definitely gonna be great? Absolutely not. People are wrong every year. But if you want to go with the odds, I believe they’re right more often. What I don’t understand is the people saying you can’t anoint him yet, then saying he’s going to be a bust. Seems like playing both sides of the coin to me.
by CJHutch on Jun 30, 2009 11:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Do those experts
Guarantee that Rubio will be over this year?
Guarantee he won’t jump ship for NY after his rookie contract expires?
Guarantee he won’t pull a JCN or Fran Vasquez?
I think the people who are playing down not drafting Rubio are not doing so because of his purported abilities, but because of all the excess baggage that drafting Rubio brings along with it. So not only are you taking on the inherent risk of a draft pick, and multiply all the other crap that David Kahn and company have to deal with. The can be patient and wait a few years, because their team sucks. I’m not sure we have the same option.
I hope that Rubio does well. But I wouldn’t have drafted him without knowing full well that he was going to maximize his potential in a Wizards uniform.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Jun 30, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
In the sense that the only issue with Rubio is whether he plays at all. He’s going to be a really good one for all the reasons Rook listed. The only issue is whether he comes over and whether he depreciates his own value as an asset because of his dance.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Jun 30, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike, my counter to that would be
that Sam Presti, considered one of the best GM’s in the league passed on Rubio. Ostensibly, it was to protect Russell Westbrook’s feelings, but I find it hard to believe that a GM who has demonstrated himself to all about collecting assets would pass on drafting Rubio unless one of three things are true:
1. Rubio isn’t as good as everyone thinks he is (which Rook’s post seems refute)
2. Rubio and his camp are going to be a serious pain in the ass to deal with
3. He isn’t valuable as a commodity (which Presti loves) since he can dictate where he wants to play.
My second point, and this would be for all the people still believing that Rubio could be suiting up in a Wizard’s uniform – why would Rubio, who got sand in his britches over the Wolves drafting Johny Flynn AFTER HIM, be happy with playing a 10-15 minute backstop to Gilbert Arenas for the next three years?
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Jun 30, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Excellent Points
Although I anticipate everyone on the other side of the argument will probably tell you that Gil would happily slide over to SG and not care a lick that he doesn’t have the ball in his hands most of the time to initiate the offense. So prepare yourself for that argument.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 30, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, then I would
direct them to this excellent post by Mike. And demonstrate how having you hands tied as a GM kinda sucks.
http://www.bulletsforever.com/2007/8/17/143358/480
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Jun 30, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Latest commentary on Rubio
When do you expect Rubio to be a top 10 point guard in the NBA?
Chad Ford
10:04 AM
I’m not even sure Rubio is in the league. From what I can gather there’s a very real possibility he will go back to Europe, sign a big contract with a team like Real Madrid or Efes Pilsen and play the next 2 or 3 years there. I’m not sure whether David Kahn is clever or naive. Drafting Rubio and Flynn did give him a little leverage, but it also ticked off the Rubios. If he or Flynn isn’t traded, I don’t think we’ll see him in the NBA for the next few years.
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/27200
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Jun 30, 2009 2:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why Rubio is not as good as advertized
from John Hollinger
Ricky Rubio
OK, it’s time to shine a harsher light here. There’s one thing working hugely against Rubio’s status as an A-list prospect that nobody seems to want to mention, so let me put it out there: There’s very little evidence he can score at anything approaching an acceptable rate for an NBA point guard.
We have very little recent Euroleague data to work with from Rubio — just a 66-minute sample from this year and a larger sample from two years earlier — but both sets translate to scoring about five points per 40 minutes and shooting in the low 30s. Ugh. Rubio shot better in the Spanish ACB league this season, including 25-of-62 on 3-pointers, but he also shot only 39 percent on 2s against a lower level of competition.
Same goes for his alleged breakout in the Olympics — as heralded as he was for his play, he made nine baskets in eight games and shot 28.1 percent for the tournament. And while one of those games was against a team full of U.S. All-Stars, he wasn’t bedazzling the Germans or Angolans either. Obviously he’s a Jason Kidd-like rarity in that he can have a heavy impact on the game without scoring, but if his shooting numbers don’t improve, he’ll make Kidd look like Rick Barry.
by Blatche4MVP on Jun 30, 2009 4:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Link
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Jun 30, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um, he’s 18? 17 during the Olympics?
Oh, that’s right — Hollinger runs number, but there is no column in his spreadsheet to input age.
by disgrunted on Jun 30, 2009 4:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I Don't Get It
Shouldn’t shooting be something a player learns early on in his basketball career? Why do you think it will magically get better with age? Doesn’t the ability to shoot a basketball require a little inherent talent?
Hollinger probably didn’t input the age in his spreadsheet because he probably figured it to be irrelevant. It’s not like Stephen Curry didn’t know how to shoot when he was 18.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jul 1, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not taking a side on this one
but I think you are wrong about this point
Shouldn’t shooting be something a player learns early on in his basketball career? Why do you think it will magically get better with age? Doesn’t the ability to shoot a basketball require a little inherent talent?
See Redd, Michael for example. Or Jordan, Michael for that matter.
by MR on Jul 1, 2009 6:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Check the Stats
I’m sure Hollinger did. Michael Jordan shot 54% for his career at UNC. Michael Redd is a better example, but even he shot 44.8% from the field at OSU, not bad for a jump shooter.
While it is true that both players improved their jump shot once they got into the league, neither was nearly as terrible a shooter as Ricky Rubio is. And don’t forget what Rook has been saying in this post; Rubio has been training for 4 years in a superior league and is supposedly the most polished prospect to come along in decades. But all that training has not helped his jump shot.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jul 1, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can get away with having a bad jump shot if....
you can beat your defender off the dribble. Tony Parker is a great example, his first few seasons he was a terrible shooter, but since he was soooo quick he still be his defender, be a facilitator, and could always finish at the rim. Not only do Rubio’s stats suggest he can’t shoot, but he is also a poor finisher. It is very difficult to be a successful PG if you are no threat to score
by Blatche4MVP on Jul 1, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is Rubio's TS%?
Does he at least get to the line a lot? Where can I find advanced stats for the ACB division of the Spanish league?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jul 1, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure why you are beating this drum, but whatever.
Here is a link with stats: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Ricky-Rubio-1155/.
Keep in mind that Rubio had a right wrist injury this season, so that could be a factor. During ACB play this season, he shot 42% from 3, so that suggests he can become a better shooter.
For true shooting percentage, check out: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Just-By-the-Numbers-This-Years-Point-Guard-Crop-3262/.
You’ll note that Draftexpress has two sets of numbers for him — the 5 Euroleague games, and the ACB games. His true shooting percentage for the 5 Euroleague games was horrible (I think, but am not sure, those games were when he came back from the wrist injury), while his true shooting % in the ACB games were middle of the road compared to other point prospects. This link also shows that he gets to the line a ton.
by disgrunted on Jul 1, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
The 3p% from his ACB play shows he isn’t a complete dud, but his overall FG% of 39.1% is still not very good. The stats do show that he gets to the line a lot, though. Still, he’s going to need to get a lot better in this area of his game before he can be an effective PG in this league. If the kid thought EuroLeague was tough, wait until he has to face NBA defenses.
Not sure why you are beating this drum, but whatever.
I would think that this is an obvious drum to beat, so to speak. Why wouldn’t a basketball player’s ability to put the ball in the basket be relevant?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jul 1, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not trying to be bush league here
rook you are the man… just thought this would be interesting.
anyone guess who the player below is? it’s probably easy:
Not many players in the history of European basketball have won three Euroleague titles. Even less have won three in a row, and none have ever done it with two different teams. What more can any player expect from his European basketball career?
Brilliant at the point guard position with his trademark ‘no-look’ passes that slice through the opponent’s defense, BLANK has become one of the top floor generals in the world. But he also is capable of carrying the team almost by himself like in Athens 2004 when he torched the U.S. team with 28 points, including 12 in an 80-second span at the very end of the game. Four years earlier, BLANK came within five centimetres from making BLANK the first team to beat a U.S. team made up entirely of professionals when he scored 27 points but missed a last second three-pointer that would have sent his country to the gold medal game at the 2000 Olympics.
link
by DarrellWalkerFan on Jun 30, 2009 6:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sarunas is also 14 years older than Rubio
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Jun 30, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please Show Me
Why his age matters in this regard. He’s been honing his game for the past 4 years in one of the best basketball leagues in the world, supposedly making him one of the most polished and experienced players in this draft, and he still can’t shoot? Please don’t tell me he hasn’t practiced shooting these past 4 years.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jul 1, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So are you saying that Rubio can't develop a jumper
And that he can’t function without one next year in the NBA. Jason Kidd has done alright without having a decent jump shot.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Jul 1, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is that he cannot even shoot as well as Kidd
Not saying he will not develop a jumper, or cant be a good PG. But he is not particularly quick, thus will have problems beating defenders off the dribble if defenders do not respect his jump shot. Over time, as he gets bigger, stronger, faster, and improves his shot he may become dominant, but I just dont think he is ready to play big time minutes on a good team today.
by Blatche4MVP on Jul 1, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Kidd's College Stats
Two seasons at UC, career field goal percentage of 46.8%.
Ricky Rubio has had 4 seasons of intensive training in one of the best basketball leagues in the world, and his field goal percentage is in the low 30% range? So Jason Kidd was a more polished shooter coming out of college by far than Rubio is now? Are you kidding me? Like Hollinger said:
but if his shooting numbers don’t improve, he’ll make Kidd look like Rick Barry.
That’s pathetic.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jul 1, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think there's still a valid point there
that euroleague success doesn’t necessarily translate immediately to the nba. based on his international/olympic credentials, you’d think he’d be a surefire player. but sarunas came over in his prime and didn’t do much. i’m not saying rubio doesn’t have more talent, but i think there’s a good chance he’s going to need to get a lot better before he’s an above average player in the nba.
then again, maybe sarunas struggled simply because he’s a maryland grad. HA! (cheap shot)
by DarrellWalkerFan on Jul 1, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair point, true
Of course, I also think Sarunas was really misused in his first year in the league (I forget if it was with Indiana and Golden State), but then again, maybe Rubio would be misused too if he was here.
I think there have been enough very good points brought up for me to question whether Rubio would have indeed made an immediate impact here. I still don’t think that changes my position that he would have been extremely valuable as an asset and could have helped fetch a better return than Foye/Miller, but it does make me wonder about whether he could play here if we had to keep him.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Jul 1, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Asset wise
Doesn’t this remind you of JCN…?
http://www.bulletsforever.com/2007/8/17/143358/480
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Jul 1, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rubio is much more coveted
JCN was a second-round pick in 2002 that I got unnecessarily excited about. He was also six years older than Rubio. He also surprised the Wizards by saying he wanted to come play, which lowered the Wizards’ leverage because they were already advancing on a new deal for DeShawn Stevenson.
It’s not a comparable situation.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Jul 1, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you might be right
but to me, losing rubio is the price of trying to win now with the big 3, particularly jamison. if we’re running with those guys, the miller foye move reasonably approaches the best we could do, IMO.
if we hadn’t resigned jamison, we keep our pick and draft rubio. but not sure if people would have sat through last year’s 19-63 record if we were actively in retooling mode. (although i probably would have been MORE likely to watch last year if i wasn’t expecting us to be so much better than we were.)
by DarrellWalkerFan on Jul 1, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm Confused
This DraftExpress link distinguishes between EuroLeague stats (in which Rubio was horrible) and domestic league stats (in which Rubio was pretty good). But according to Rook’s post, Rubio played in ACB the whole time, which is considered part of EuroLeague. What am I missing?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jul 1, 2009 11:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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