Bullets Forever Poll: Ricky Rubio vs. "The Trade"
by Truth About It on Jun 27, 2009 2:43 PM EDT
in Polls
32 comments
Yes, Wizards Insider as this exact same poll up right now ... and as of 3,486 votes, 56% think that the Wizards are better off with Mike Miller and Randy Foye over Spanish phenom, Ricky Rubio.
So, out of curiosity, and because the niche Bullets Forever community can be of a different nature in comparison to those who visit the WaPost's Wizards Insider ... (personally, I stopped reading the Wizards Insider comments long ago .... I occasionally skim, but it seems a fair percentage of said commenters resort to irrational attacks -- perhaps this has changed since the WaPost has required people to sign-in, I can't say. In comparison, I can always count on those who frequent BF to provide an intelligent, well thought out perspective. And although people don't always agree with each other ... that's just a fact of life ... discussions here on BF tend to swing much futher towards the end of reason on the pendulum).
In any case, I'm curious to see what YOU guys think.
Factor in a holistic view of whether, in their 'win now' mode AND considering the future possibilities, if you think the Wizards are better off with the assets acquired in the trade, versus keeping a draft pick which would have garnered Rubio.
0 recs |
32 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
Ya Know
If Ernie had drafted Rubio he would have had the same press conference Kaaaahhhhhnnn had in Minnesota: no Rubio. Fegan is a dink and would at this very moment be trying to get Rubio on some other team because Gilbert is the “PG” here. Papa Rubes would be telling Marca.com all about the offers he has to play in Spain etc. in other words 10 pounds of drama in a 5 pound bag.
That doesn’t make the kid any less valuable to other teams. So as an asset, sure. but i think people are generally misguided if they think Rubio was gonna be playing in DC next season even if Big Ern had drafted him.
by Jheiser3 on Jun 27, 2009 2:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm down with that....
Maybe the next poll should be…
Should Wizards fans root against Rubio or not?
Sounds irrational, but we all have it in us …. one way or another.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
by Truth About It on Jun 27, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think the draft is about the press conferences afterward?
I was under the impression it had something to do with who plays for your team in the future.
Near as I can tell, the worst case scenario here involves the Wolves either a) waiting on Rubio for a season, at which point his buyout number is reduced; or b) dealing the kid at no real loss in value. In either case, unless Randy Foye has a serious coming out party in Washington I don’t see how Foye and Miller can be the equivalent of a franchise-level point guard.
by feral on Jun 27, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Don't Buy That
dealing the kid at no real loss in value
Any time that you try to trade a player who has publicly stated that he does not want to play for you, you do not get equal value. Rubio has already ruled out several teams he would be willing to play for, so that already reduces his value in a trade, because Kahn’s options are reduced. And since Minnesota is one of the teams he doesn’t want to play for, Kahn has no leverage in any trade negotiations.
In either case, unless Randy Foye has a serious coming out party in Washington I don’t see how Foye and Miller can be the equivalent of a franchise-level point guard.
They may not have to be, and you assume waaaaay too much if you are already calling Rubio a franchise-level point guard. Foye and Miller may only need to be better than a player who is not even playing in the NBA. In other words, they need to be better than nothing. Face it, if Rubio walks, the T-Wolves got fleeced.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 27, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah -- well, you won that trade then!
Because Mike Miller is “better than nothing” all by himself. I’m pretty sure getting to that point required some pretty convoluted thinking, actually, but whatever.
Like it or not, Ricky Rubio projects as a franchise point. Nothing’s certain. Randy Foye and Mike Miller have pretty well established what they are, it’s true. They’re proven NBA commodities. Ahem. Cough.
by feral on Jun 28, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
Its about him playing here, which his agent would not let happen. In the meantime, maybe a year or two while the drama plays out, Ernie sits on him while trying to rebuild his contender.
“Franchise level PG” when? 2 years? If he doesn’t play in the NBA for awhile then 4 or 5?
by Jheiser3 on Jun 28, 2009 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't agree
The more I think about this, the more the NBA is sounding like Ricky Rubio attending college. Instead of getting to pick his college, his college got to pick him And all the things that he seems to want in his “college” (a large market, endorsement opportunities, warm weather) don’t seem to be available. I mean, he’s 17, why does he necessarily have to play in MIN or WAS.
And dealing him does have a serious loss in value, because he is prescribing who he is willing to play for. So instead of 29 other GM’s willing to deal with you, you only have 5-6 and you’ve lost significant negotiating leverage.
The Wolves are young and rebuilding, so you have time for the myriad headaches that this situation is going to incur. For the next two years, I rather take the guys who can take me past the first round.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Jun 28, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ricky's pop sounds...
a bit like Press Maravich redux… add that to his agent, the almost Shakespearean- named Fegan and Ricky has enough problems for any 18 year-old pheenom,
by khrabb on Jun 27, 2009 3:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand what Fegan's plan was
He lost Rubio millions of dollars, both because Rubio dropped to 5, and because most Americans’ first impression of the kid is that he is spoiled and whiny. From what I’ve read, Rubio is a good kid, charming, and quite mature for 18. Why wouldn’t you have Rubio come to the U.S. to meet with whatever teams wanted to talk to him? That would help generate trade interest, and position Rubio better. The goal should have been to get your preferred team to trade with Memphis. Memphis has a bunch of talented young guys — they need a talented veteran. Why on earth couldn’t that sort of deal be arranged? Fegan dropped the ball. For Rubio to drop to 5 was ridiculous and an indictment of Fegan.
I don’t know whether Ricky’s dad is a bad guy, or is just reading from the playbook that Fegan gave him. But it’s not as if this is the first instance when a player and agent tried to direct where the player would go. Kobe, Yi, Eli Manning, Elway, and Danny Ferry come to mind. This time it was just handled really poorly.
by disgrunted on Jun 27, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ricky hired a real shark
It’s understandable that he would hire a hardball agent. At the moment the kid’s struggling to get out from under a Euro league contract that’s spectacularly slanted in favor of the team. That’s a deal his parents signed him to when he was all of 14.
(Before the rookie scale, agents basically all were like Fegan, and the relationships between team and player were almost all kicked off with an attenuated salary grind. It wasn’t quite the match of Rubio’s “You make $300k, but your buyout is $6.6 million,” but the initial tone was pretty bad for everyone.)
by feral on Jun 27, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey
my last name resemble that comment. We aren’t all shyster agents.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Jun 28, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
guess I'll
put my head on the chopping block.
I would’ve taken Rubio. I think he’s gonna be a very good player at some point. And even if we traded him, I think we could’ve gotten better pieces back. Now, I don’t want to make this a testament to Foye and Miller. I think they’re fine players. It’s just that they aren’t enough to push us to where we want to go. As far as who helps us now, I don’t think either one do the trick. The guys we got may help us score more points, but is that really what we need? Not to win the championship. SO, as I’ve said before, my answer is neither choice will/would have pushed us over the top. So why not swing for the fences and try to get a potential superstar?
by CJHutch on Jun 27, 2009 4:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
you know...
all along i was saying that rubio (and his crew/entourage of advisors) didn’t want him to play in certain places (dc being one of them, esp alongside gil). and everyone pretty much shunned me for saying it/not wanting to pick him…i guess people are finally coming around when experts are saying it.
by theintz on Jun 27, 2009 4:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I voted against Rubio, but
that changes if he would have come over this season and played for us, which we will never know one way or the other. Given the way the team is being run(right or wrong) I think the trade was better for us since it solidified our G rotation and gives us a nice replacement for Butler if we decide to move him for a bigger piece of the puzzle.
by Mr. E on Jun 27, 2009 4:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't mean to be nettlesome
But you would give up a potential franchise PG like Ricky Rubio because he’d help find a replacement for Caron Butler in a potential move involving him?
Mike MIller and Randy Foye are not replacements for Caron Butler, anyway. “Replacement level” would be more like it, if you’re seeing them as starters. Either one of them might make a fine bench player in the right rotation, but they’re not replacing All Stars.
by feral on Jun 27, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reading comprehension
I said if Rubio were coming over this season and was willing to play for us, I’d rather have him. I also think that is unlikely to happen and I also said that given managements clear strategy to win now(which is a completely different argument) that the trade was better for us. Mike Miller is also a completely acceptable starter at SF with the right players around him, much like Jamison would be fine with Dwight Howard at C except many more lineups are possible with Miller at SF on a championship team. Miller is not as good as Caron, in case you didn’t get that, but Miller + Bosh >> Caron + Jamison.
by Mr. E on Jun 28, 2009 3:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have just about defined "replacement level"
You want reading comprehension? Take a look at your post, and walk me through what the Wizards did here. They gave up a potential franchise-level point guard for:
1. a “solidified…. guard rotation”; and
2. “a nice replacement for Butler if we decide to move him for a bigger piece of the puzzle.”
The problem is, Rubio himself would have either become a “bigger piece of the puzzle,” or an asset to use in acquiring one. Which one would you rather have to trade, today: Rubio, or Foye and Mike Miller? One of those sets of assets might get you an All Star. The other set gives you, er, a bit of flexibility….?
Yes, a mediocre player can live next to All Stars. No, two replacement level players are not worth a franchise guy. No, it is not worth giving up a likely franchise player — Rubio — for the sorts of assets that might make acceptable fill-in starters if you decided to deal another (borderline) All Star.
by feral on Jun 28, 2009 7:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
because Rubio already stated that he didn’t want to play here, just like he didn’t want to play in Memphis, just like he DOESN’T want to play for the Wolves.
So when you are accepting 40 cents on the dollar from NY just to get something back for him, well that’s great.
Or you get him for three years now, and then once he is a FA, he will walk on you, or back to Spain like Juan Carlos Navarro.
Or you never get him at all – see Fran Vasquez.
These don’t seem like fun options for a team looking to compete for the next few years. I know you guys are a decade away or so, so you have time for these concerns.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Jun 28, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FYI ... there were also reports stating that Rubio & his people....
Backed off saying that he didn’t want to play alongside Gilbert in D.C.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
by Truth About It on Jun 29, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still, Consider it From Ernie's Perspective
Ernie probably thought:
a) The only players worth my time in this weak draft are Blake Griffin and Ricky Rubio.
b) Blake Griffin is going #1, no doubt.
c) Ricky Rubio will probably go #2-#4, with a small chance he will slip all the way to #5.
d) Even if Ricky Rubio does slip to #5, there is a good chance he won’t play for me, a good chance he will handcuff me in trade negotions, and a big soap opera awaiting me no matter what.
e) Rubio is immature and unpredictable, and I really can’t afford that if I’m trying to win a championship in the next three seasons.
Putting everything together, it is easy, IMO, to see why Ernie did the trade.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 29, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other than looking like Maravich
I don’t see what the big deal is. He can’t shoot, he can’t play defense, and is not physically ready to play in the NBA…..I would have done the trade in my sleep. I think B. Jennings knew exactly what he was talking about, this one time.
by LoneWiz54 on Jun 27, 2009 10:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Umm
he can’t play defense
You do realize he was the defensive player of the year in his league, right?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Jun 28, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't JaVale McGee the DPOY in the WAC before he came out?
Bullets Forever: A blog dedicated to the Washington Wizards with analysis, commentary, and more YouTube videos than your eyes can handle.
by JakeTheSnake on Jun 28, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You do realize his league is NOT the NBA
he has not faced the caliber of athlete he would face in the NBA. His league is about equal to NBA summer league and I venture to say he would have a tough time there. The guy has POTENTIAL, but he is about 2-3 years from being about to be a rotation player for the Wizards. Evans and Harden are better prospects IMO, though they play different positions. I think this is another European player that everyone went crazy on simply because he has a game that is flashy for a European player and physically he looks like “rookie Pete Maravich.” So many times we fall for media hype, but I played club ball in Europe in the early 90’s and I have seen film of this guy. I don’t see the big deal and I think the trade was a good one as long as a good solid Big is signed for rebounding and defense to back up Haywood.
by LoneWiz54 on Jun 28, 2009 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta agree
I’m really not sure why everyone thinks Rubio is so good. He stats are decent, but is the competition in ACB better than D1 college ball? I see a lot of names of players who didn’t make the NBA among the league leaders there. Speaking of which, there’s Fran Vazquez leading the league in blocks…hmm…Orlando drafted him in the lottery in 2005. Is that going to be Rubio in 4 years?
The kid MIGHT become a good NBA player. He certainly wouldn’t have been next year. He dropped to 5th in a VERY weak draft. Given that plus the cost of buying him out of his contract his trade value is probably pretty low. For a team that’s aiming to win now, he’d have been a completely boneheaded pick. I can’t understand the angst over missing out on him.
by steadyhand on Jun 28, 2009 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not so fast ...
Like the NBA summer league? Not even close.
Many have said that the Spanish ACB league is the best in the world next to the NBA.
Countless players have also said that the play is rougher in regard to the refs “letting them play” much more than they do in the NBA.
Calling Rubio a Euro ‘flash in the pan’ is the easy way out … .but many scouts have seen this kid play and have studied him up close. I’m not going to discount that.
And besides, I think many have learned their lesson in recent times to not get over infatuated in a Euro player … I doubt they are over-hyping the guy in this case.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
by Truth About It on Jun 28, 2009 4:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even if all that were true
His stats in that league were so-so at best. He did not dominate that league and I still say he has not faced the caliber of players he will face night in and night out in the NBA. I am going off what a player said about him, what scouts said about him (there are quite a few that say he is not the best point guard prospect in this draft) and what my eyes have seen. The only thing exceptional about his play is his floor vision. He is not exceptionally quick, not a even a good shooter, not fast, he is an average leaper, not strong…etc..etc..etc… Go on and drink the kool-aid but I am behind EG on this one. IF this kid does develop into a solid to above average NBA player it will be 2-3 years from know. If he signs with an NBA team this year and b!tch slap the league I will be more than man enough to come to this board and eat crow.
by LoneWiz54 on Jun 28, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except when he held his own on Paul, Kidd, and Deron Williams in the Olympics
with a wrist he’d injured halfway through the game….
The kid is a very good defender. Read any scouting site. He weighs 180, mostly because despite being the best PG prospect in at least the last 5 years he’s only 18. But he plays good defense, period, in what amounts to the second-toughest league in the world. (And yeah, that includes the NCAA.)
by feral on Jun 28, 2009 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am going to end it like this because I know what is up
We will see, in time we will see. He is not a Wizard and that is all I care about, I like the trade, will like it more if EG signs a solid backup Big. I am not going to “What if” myself to sleep.
by LoneWiz54 on Jun 28, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I voted for Rubio
I have drunk the Rubio kool-aid for awhile. I have a hard time believing that Ernie Grunfeld would pass on Rubio at 2 if the Wizards received the second pick.
No. 1: When you have a talent like Ricky Rubio’s you don’t pass on him because he might not play for you. He is an asset and has value.
No. 2: All this talk about Rubio not hear comes from his agent Dan Fegan. Frankly I think Ernie and Flip Saunders could’ve convinced that idgit Fegan and failing that., could convince Rubio himself.
No. 3: What if this core can’t do it. What if everything goes sour (Arenas gets hurt), Butler gets hurt and this thing goes down the tubes. And say Grunfeld (or some other GM) decides to blow this up and start over. Ricky Rubio could be a cornerstone for something like that. Ricky Rubio would make a nice backup plan.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Jun 28, 2009 8:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bottom Line
If Rubio was willing to play for Washington, and Ernie had a good reason to believe that Rubio would have been available at #5, then Ernie should have not done the trade and drafted Rubio. But neither of the above applied. So Ernie got the best deal considering the circumstances.
Also, to all of the T-Wolves fans, you should wait and see what kind of players come back in a trade for Rubio before you assume he will get you more than what Miller/Foye already gave you. My guess is that you will get pennies on the dollar for Rubio, because that kid will handcuff you in any negotiations in order to steer himself towards the markets he likes.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 29, 2009 10:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
Related FanPosts on Bullets Forever
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
