So Who Starts at Shooting Guard
by cuppettcj on Jun 26, 2009 11:48 PM EDT
36 comments
I've seen both NBA analysts and members here assume two different things about the roles of our two new guards. I'm curious what the overall consensus is. My assumption is that because Miller's game is such a good fit with Arenas's, that he will be the starter and that Foye will be the first man off of the bench (Sixth Man).
Yet Foye started a lot more games than Miller did last season, and is improving every year. So what say all of you guys? Maybe there is a different configuration you are thinking about? If so, please state your rationale in the comments below.
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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Miller will need to play next to Arenas
in order for us to get the best out of him and everyone else. By putting him in the starting lineup with 3 deadly scorers that sometimes cannot be guarded effectively 1 on 1, Mike Miller will be getting more scoring and assist opportunities than he has ever dreamed of. He fits the best by far in our starting lineup out of the SGs we have.
Foye would basically be the 2nd unit’s version of Arenas. He would bring instant offense off the bench mostly with his outside shooting and playmaking skills which our bench desparately needed before this trade.
And then when we can go with a quick and athletic combination of Arenas, Foye, Young, Mcguire, Blatche, McGee and run and jump other teams out of the arena. Or we can create some mismatches by going big with Arenas/Foye, Butler, Jamison, McGee/Blatche, Haywood.
To summarize, Miller fits best in the starting lineup and Foye fits best with our 2nd unit but, our flexibility will be the main key that will make the Wizard’s offense one of the most dangerous if not THE most dangerous offense in the league next year.
by lj15 on Jun 27, 2009 1:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My
fear with Foye coming off the bench is that it will render NY irrelevant, unless there is an injury. I would rather see Miller get the bulk of his minutes at SF. Plus, being more of a seasoned vet, it will be good to have him in there with the young guys.
by CJHutch on Jun 27, 2009 7:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm choosing Miller now
But I will relish in the fact that there will be an open competition…
Nick Young is not a lost cause
DeShawn Stevenson …who knows?
Crittenton, I like his potential.
There’s GOT to be another trade ….. but I don’t think that at this point we can say ANY of our guards are irrelevant … it’s a long summer and with playing time open, I’m excited to see who wants it the most.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
by Truth About It on Jun 27, 2009 3:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree
I’m going with Miller, too, because I think he can be too passive with his shot, and coming off the bench would probably encourage this, since he’d be playing more minutes with guys like Young and Foye who will look for their shot every time down the court (it’s weird how Butler, Jamison, and Arenas are the same way, but I just think of them as more gunners by necessity than chuckers or selfish players). I downloaded an old Timberwolves-Rockets game last night, too, and I was pretty impressed by Miller’s playmaking ability, and I think he’ll work out well next to Gilbert.
My big concern at this point is Nick Young. With Miller and Foye, The Burrito is pretty much redundant, and I’m borderline terrified that we’re going to ship him off for pennies on the dollar for someone like Hakeem Warrick who might fit our needs but will be nowhere near the player Nick Young is. If anything, I’d actually rather trade Foye again than give up Young and just risk having to start Crittenton if Gil gets hurt while letting Dominic McGuire and Miller share some point forward duties every now and then.
by pantslessyoda1 on Jun 27, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know we just think of him as a contract
and it IS fair to say that Mike James is irrelevant, but for that contract. Don’t want to be nitpicky, but at least one is irrelevant :P
by Manimal Smith on Jun 27, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
S5
Starting 5 needs some balance. I could see DS or McGuire starting at the 2 because someone needs to prioritize rebounding and defense besides Haywood. Miller also isn’t a good fit defending starting 2s. Second unit is Foye/Young/Miller/Blatche/McGee.
Of course Miller will play with the big 3 plenty, and is likely to finish games at the 2 so he doesn’t HAVE to start to contribute.
by Jheiser3 on Jun 27, 2009 4:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
PLEASE
don’t say Deshawn and starting in the same sentence. After getting Young (and Crittendon) more experience last year, AND trading for 2 more shooting guards, if we go back to the same ole same ole 2 guard who gives you 6 points on 3 for 14 shooting while jacking up ill advised 3’s all over the place, I will be sick. And THEN you can officially call this trade a complete debacle. I can’t think of a starting 2 guard less productive than Stevenson.
by CJHutch on Jun 27, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
once again
I don’t think you see the big picture. You think “starting” equates to playing the most or finishing. It doesn’t.
DeShawn can be the starter and play less than Miller and even Young since Miller will see time as a SF too. Starting DS cuts down Miller’s time against opposing 2’s. Foye will play backup PG more than he will 2G. Then in the second half DS becomes the ‘defense’ 50% of the offense/defense.
by Jheiser3 on Jun 27, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
could see miller starting
but i think foye will probably get more minutes
by theintz on Jun 27, 2009 4:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's gotta be Miller
His game complements Gil’s so well and Foye would be better as a primary option, where he’d be if he played off the bench.
I don’t see Nick and Foye coexisting though. One has to go.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Jun 27, 2009 7:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
my thoughts
exactly. I don’t think they can play together. But I’d like to keep Nick, which is why I’d rather see Foye start.
by CJHutch on Jun 27, 2009 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a hunch
That we won’t see Nick go anywhere.
My feeling was that Ernie thinks that Nick isn’t ready for showtime this year as a 6th man and so he jumped at the chance to add both a starting SG and a 6th man at the same time so that he could stash Nick on the bench as the 7/8/9 in the rotation and bring him up to speed as the 6th man.
I think we re-sign either Miller or Foye (Miller seems more likely because he might be cheaper due to age) and then let the other one go and use Nick in their role for less money. We will see who is right in time though…
by Manimal Smith on Jun 27, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting
Good analysis, it actually makes a lot of sense. We can have Foye mentor Young this season, showing him the ropes, and then let Foye walk for more money elsewhere and have Young step in as the sixth man. We can then use the savings to resign Haywood so that we don’t miss a beat.
My only concern about this is what other asset do we have to package with Mike James if we keep Nick Young? The only thing I can think of is that we don’t make a trade this offseason, but rather sign a big via the MLE. Then we package Foye and James at the trade deadline. Other than that, I don’t see how we can hold onto Young and still get rid of Mike James.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 27, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's my concern as well
I think that Ernie is too high on NY to get rid of him with Mike James for anything less than a real impact player – which I just don’t see happening.
Javaris is a nice piece for a team who is also getting an expiring contract in James, but I don’t know if its enough to get back someone who can really help.
by Manimal Smith on Jun 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely also possible as you say
That we trade Foye AND James at the deadline for a big and then slot Nick into Foye’s role. I could see that happenign but I don’t know how we’d get to be sure that Nick was ready if he isn’t getting alot of minutes.
by Manimal Smith on Jun 27, 2009 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure
but I don’t think we can trade Foye WITH someone else. I’m by no means an expert, but I thought I read somewhere that you can’t package a player you just traded for. Could be wrong.
Either way, I am coming to terms with the trade. However, if we were to let Foye, who was obviously the bigger piece in the deal, just walk next year, I would get sick all over again. Would mean yet another wasted pick.
by CJHutch on Jun 28, 2009 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We can just...
Not now. I think its sometime in december that newly acquired players become pacakagable. Its well before the trading deadline.
Whether Foye is worth keeping depends on how expensive he will be and how well he meshes with Gilbert. We are better off keeping whoever meshes best with Gilbert.
To that end, I don’t know for certain that Foye was the bigger part of the trade. Miller seems like the more obvious fit in the starting lineup with Gilbert and he has the big expiring deal that we get to play with. Foye is younger, but he will probably be pricier to retain.
by Manimal Smith on Jun 28, 2009 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand your
thinking, and without getting into another discussion on how good or bad the trade was, but wouldn’t you find it unsettling if we were to lose the player we gave up a lottery pick for? I know you think it was Miller, but I look at it like Miller was had for the other 3. I mean, the guy is almost 30, and has been traded multiple times. You don’t give up a 5 pick for a journeyman. Foye is (hopefully) and up and comer, still getting better. That’s what you give up the 5 pick for. So if we lose Foye for nothing after just one year, that’s a wasted pick in my opinion. Even if the 5 pick isn’t a superstar, it could be a guy on your team who contributes significantly, or at least garners some value in a trade. A guy like, say, Shane Battier. I knwo he was a 6 pick, but that’s what I mean. He doesn’t have to be a star to be worth something. I look at it like we EARNED that 5 pick by enduring such an awful season. And, hopefully, we won’t be back in the lottery anytime soon. So to essentially use that pick to rent a player for one year is not the way to build a contender. Not a lasting one. I’m getting tired of hearing about this “window” that we have. Yes, we have a core group that at the age(s) where they need to win soon before their skills decline. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to add youth to that mix to ensure we STAY competitive once they’re past they’re prime. Besides, Jamison is the only one who’s close to being past his prime. There’s no reason we have to roll over when he’s done. Arenas is our most talented player and, hopefully, hasn’t reached his prime yet. If we could squeeze a few more good to great years out of Jamison (and Butler), while adding talented youth to the mix along the way, we could stay in the mix long after the grey beards are gone. That’s what good franchises do.
by CJHutch on Jun 28, 2009 6:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our window
is that Abe wants to bring another championship to DC. He wants to roll the dice with this core and we have no idea what the next ownership group will do.
To your other point, we have 5 young promising developing players to outlast the grey beards. One may be traded soon. But we’d still have a very balanced group of vets and youngsters. Our current roster’s years of experience: 11, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 7, 7, 4, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1. James (8) and Dixon (7) are likely gone. Maybe DSteve (9) also. McGee, McGuire, Young, Foye, Critt, Blatche. A Starting lineup with sixth man of early 20 year olds.
by MR on Jun 28, 2009 7:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand your thinking too...
but, the issue is our salary situation. If we give up Foye either after this year or in a trade during the year, then it will definitely disappointing, but won’t you be MORE dissappointed if our team next year is exactly the same except without Mike Miller?
That’s the scenario that we confront and so if we can trade either Miller or Foye at the deadline for a 5-10% increase in or championship potential for next year, then we should probably do it because we can’t keep both. I think Miller is the better fit, so keeping him makes more sense.
We can’t re-sign Haywood, Miller AND Foye and even if we did we would be treading water. Nick Young fits Foye’s role fairly well, but he isn’t ready and is under contract past next season – if he becomes ready during the season, then why not ditch Foye to a team that needs him more for a better fitting piece (maybe even one on a rookie contract that is cheap)?
by Manimal Smith on Jun 28, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After 60 days he can be traded
Which means late August.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Jun 28, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and that's
under no restrictions? He can be involved in a package deal with other players?
by CJHutch on Jun 28, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He can be traded only by himself until the end of August
After that, no restrictions.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Jun 29, 2009 7:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's a Huge Point
So we may end up using Miller or Foye as a trade asset for a big later this summer. That may be the route Ernie chooses to take, rather than deal the less expensive Nick Young.
My guess is that Ernie will keep Miller and trade Foye if he trades either of them, but it depends on who Ernie values more. Foye certainly has more upside, and I was actually surprised to see how close the voting was above.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 29, 2009 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we'll keep them both
Trade James for a backup center. Sign a cheap FA C/PF who sits on the bench. Done.
Competition among those PG/SG/SFs is a good thing. It’ll light a fire under some of them.
by MR on Jun 29, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe, But the Point is Ernie Will Have Options
He now can add Miller and Foye to his list of assets, along with Mike James, Nick Young, and (assuming we make a play for two bigs) Andray Blatche. He can test the market and get back the best player(s) to fill our needs.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 29, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trading season is basically over by August though
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Jun 29, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How Do You Figure?
That makes sense in terms of free agents, because most of the good ones will have been signed. But there will be big trades now, big trades later this offseason, and big trades during the course of this upcoming season. The player we target will be under contract, and the team that owns him may be waiting for the right offer before they pull the trigger. I don’t foresee a rush for a team to trade a player under contract, especially if that player is under contract for the next several seasons. So why couldn’t Ernie wait until August to deal?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 29, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's late August, first of all
So basically, it’s not until September that any trades could be made. And while he could make a trade after the end of August, by then, training camps are right around the corner, and you rarely see major trades during training camp. I can’t think of one off the top of my head.
You’re then getting into the season before you can make another trade.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Jun 29, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
August 24th
Is when Ernie can package either Miller or Foye in another trade. I would hardly call that September, especially since Ernie can agree to principle with another GM before hand (assuming that’s not illegal).
Mo Williams came over from Milwaukee on August 13th, only 11 days before the Wizards can deal. Then on November 3rd, right before the season started, Allen Iverson and Chauncey Billups swapped places. The lack of participating in Nuggets training camp did not hurt Billups from integrating into his new team that much, considering that they made the conference finals
For the record, that’s two major trades in mid-August or later, only using last offseason as an example. I strongly doubt that these trades are as rare as you seem to be alluding to.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Jun 29, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's not much between August 24 and November though
It’s not impossible, but it’s also not much time to put something together.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Jun 30, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if NY has value
trade his ass.
he’s a great one-on-one offensive player. i like the guy and some of the plays he makes are amazing. but i just don’t ever see him being a complete player. i don’t think it’s in his makeup. (my two cents.)
other than that, i can see arguments for miller, foye, and stevenson (if he’s back to 100%, ever). that’s a good thing!
i think miller is probably the 1st choice right now, but i’m kind of hoping foye makes it so you have to play him.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Jun 28, 2009 12:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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