Open Thread: Pre-draft
by Mike Prada on Jun 25, 2009 9:31 AM EDT
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PrintUse this space to talk about anything that comes to your mind, any rumored trades, any trades that go through, anything you hear about anything draft-related, etc.
Already, we've got Cleveland trading Ben Wallace and Sasha Pavlovic to Phoenix for Shaquille O'Neal. I'd say this is a panic move, but then again, the Cavs literally gave up nobody of consequence to get Shaq. Wallace and Pavlovic are pretty awful at this point and the trade is cap-neutral from Cleveland's perspective. It does allow Phoenix to save money by cutting Pavlovic and his non-guaranteed contract, but it doesn't add any long-term salary for Cleveland unless Shaq re-signs. Pretty much a no-brainer from their end.
Other interesting rumors out there to get you going:
-The big one is from Mike Jones of the Times about our 32nd pick.
According to a league source, the Wizards are considering parting with the 32nd overall pick - possibly in a package with aging point guard Mike James, whose contract expires after next season - in an effort to acquire a veteran big man who would add depth to the frontcourt.
If they are unable to land a veteran as part of a package deal, the Wizards still might trade the 32nd pick for future considerations.
So there may yet be some actual action on draft night. Quick, anyone want to think of players who match up to the combined salaries of James + 32?
(By the way, screw future considerations. If you can't find anything, use the pick. The 32nd is really valuable this year because it's basically a first-round pick without the guaranteed contract).
Washington was able to save decent money in their trade with Minnesota, as well as bring in two players that appear to be more equipped to help them win right away than the #5 pick. At #32 they seem to be targeting a big man, although it’s not quite clear if they can find a quality player there. Some options include Taj Gibson (likely gone already), Ahmad Nivins and Victor Claver.
Anyone know anything about those guys?
League stuff
-Y'all probably heard about the Jamal Crawford to Atlanta trade already. Pretty pointless if you ask me.
-Peter Vescey of the New York Post:
Phoenix is talking to Houston about Stoudemire after being turned down by Washington (unsure) and Minnesota (even up for Richard Jefferson).
According to the same source that disclosed Terry Porter was about to be fired as Suns coach, the Rockets are leaning toward swapping Tracy McGrady's expiring $22M contract, Carl Landry and Aaron Brooks for Leandro Barbosa and Stoudemire, who owns an escape clause after next season and is demanding an extension this summer to waive it.
I find that hard to believe, but it's definitely value for Phoenix.
Teams recently have inquired about every returning Suns starter, including Golden State's ongoing interest in Amaré Stoudemire (with a package involving Andris Biedrins being revisited). Washington looked at Stoudemire, too, but backed away when Caron Butler and [Jason] Richardson were added to the mix.
Those talks started with Antawn Jamison and the Wizards' fifth pick being offered for Stoudemire. The Wizards traded that fifth pick Wednesday.
You all know the drill. Anything you see today that's draft-related, either for us or for another team, put it here. I'll update this post if I can depending on my availability and whatever news breaks.
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Nivins
Being a fellow St. Joe’s student-athlete, I have been lucky enough to watch Nivins on a regular basis. If the Zards grabbed him with the 32nd pick, I’d be a little surprised though – he’s being projected as a middle to late 2nd rounder, and some have him being undrafted. However, he is a very good player who could prob help the Zards within the first 2 or 3 years. I hope they draft him, but I fear that the team will be scrutinized for taking him so early in the draft.
The O's will contend in 2010
by O's n Natty Bohs on Jun 25, 2009 9:43 AM EDT reply actions
Pendergraph
He’s a solid 6’9" 240lbs, was a 4-year starter in college and can bang inside. He shot 66% from the field and 78% from the line last year. DraftExpress lists some of his strengths as energy, intensity, work ethic and setting screens. Sounds like a good candidate to contribute next year as a role player at PF.
by 7Swords of Salat on Jun 25, 2009 10:00 AM EDT reply actions
It's unreasonable to expect a second round rookie to contribute immediately.
How often does ever happen?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk
not too often
in the past 3 years…Mario Chalmers, Luc Mbah a Moute, Carl Landry, Big Baby, Ramon Sessions, Marc Gasol, Daniel Gibson, Paul Millsap, Leon Powe.
by 7Swords of Salat on Jun 25, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
McDyess
How much money do you guys think that Antonio McDyess will be looking for this off-season? I think he would be a great pickup and that he would fit perfectly coming off the bench with his nearly automatic mid-range jumper and great rebounding skills. I know he is old but he is still very servicable.
Not to pick on Antawn
But I think we all could’ve predicted this quote from him on the trade:
“I really like this deal,” team captain Antawn Jamison said when reached by phone Wednesday. "Not taking away from anyone in the draft, but I really think these guys can help us. We don’t have to work with anybody. These guys are guys that have been there, done that. They can come in and help us right away.
Bullets Forever: A blog dedicated to the Washington Wizards with analysis, commentary, and more YouTube videos than your eyes can handle.
And More Importantly
Those guys know how to respect their elders and stay off of other people’s lawns. They also know what it is like to have to hike up a hill in 6 feet of snow both ways to get to school and back, dag-nabbit!
Seriously, though, I’m starting to come around on Antawn. He’s been pretty valuable to us and perhaps even underrated on this board.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
DX
Minnesota got 1.5 MILLION and 2 second round picks from Miami last year for the high second (Mario Chalmers). Thats market value Ernie, the bar is set.
Big
I’d trade Mike James to Chicago for Tim Thomas. If they want to throw in some cash I’m sure Ernie would give the pick up.
I don't want Tim Thomas
It’s cap neutral and they get an extra pick out of it.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Tim Thomas is the worlds greatest slacker....
I shudder to think what fun times he and Dray might have in various cities around the NBA.
Not just Tim Thomas
Tim Thomas in a contract year. Check his stats from the last time he as going into a contract year (05-06). Its all about timing. He started 14 playoff games for Phoenix that year averaging 15 and 6 in 30 minutes, shooting 44% from 3.
Regular season he averaged 11 and 5 in 24 minutes, shooting 43% from 3. Plus he’s big enough (6’10 250) to absorb some of the brunt that McGee can’t defensively.
Ohh I did not realize he actually has a reason to...
focus on playing basketball this year… Still, I think we would want more bulk in our one new big guy.
I want two
1 like Thomas who can spread the floor off the bench. Just look at what the wrinkled appendages of Donyell Marshall did for Philly in the playoffs.
1 to take the brunt of opposing bigs directly in his chest and use 5.5 fouls per game defending and rebounding.
i think everyone is WAY overshooting the possibilities by requiring the new big to actually score in the post.
The last part was why it made sense for Chicago
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I dont like Thomas
Because he’s not a banger. He loves his jumpers, but we already have ’Dray for that.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 25, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Flip needs to put Dray
on the block and leave him there.
Thomas has legit 3 point range (41% makes him our best 3 point shooter upon arrival) and he’s guaranteed to play well. Its his contract year.
We’d still have room for a ‘banger’. Thomas fits as short term insurance for AJ.
no way they improve their frontcourt depth by getting rid of Blatche.
assets that should be on the trade block are James, Young, Crittendon and the 32nd pick.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
And Tim Thomas helps there?
Really?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
No Thanks
Between AJ, Blatche, and McGee, I think we have enough PFs who like to shoot jumpers. Any more bigs we acquire should be bangers.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Exactly.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 25, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
over
Thats natural and I agree we need a guy to do dirty work. I also think it makes sense to have insurance should AJ go down and for playoff depth. Thomas guarantees we can continue playing the same way. He performs when a contract is on the line and has lit up teams from deep. The bonus with him is that he is far thicker than AJ and can defend reserve bigs in the post. he allows McGee to play the weakside and block more shots as opposed to strongside chest-first defense.
I keep saying it, as soon as he gets here he’s the best 3 point shooter we have, topping Miller last year. We have a roster thats going to play a certain way. Go with it.
Ehh
With Miller and Foye + Gilbert we will have outside shooting. Honestly, I’m hoping Jamison’s shots go down this year. I want to see him posting up, crashing the offensive glass (where his quick hands get him tons of high percentage shots) and driving to the basket to get fouls and utilize his quickness.
Basically, I don’t think we need EITHER Thomas or Jamison to chuck shots up from 3 point range.
As to whether Thomas can defend reserve bigs in the post, I’m dubious. He’s not THAT much thicker than AJ.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 25, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Do You Realize
That Tim Thomas is a better 3 point shooter than Foye and anyone on our team? I wouldn’t call that chucking.
And that AJ is not a strong back to the basket player? I thought we had that figured out and stopped expecting him to be something he isn’t.
Tim Thomas?
Gross!
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
by Kyle Weidie on Jun 25, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Victor Claver is a tall (6-10) thin Spanish Leaguer... who
seems to be able to block shots and like most Euros, he can put the ball on the floor without kicking it away and has 3 poin’t range…. That sounds sort of Pech-y doesn’t it? Except he looks like a Spanish JaVale and can really elevate…
He might help someone, but we need muscle and meanness and I don’t think that describes Sr Claver.
Veteran bigs will flock to the Wizards
It seems every year veteran players are looking to (1) hook up with a playoff team for cheap; (2) if they know they are going to get minutes. A veteran big on a veteran minimum contract would be interested in coming to DC because he might be #3 in the big man rotation (behind Haywood and Jamison), or at worst #4 behind Blatche.
It’s about time that the Wiz got one of these veteran help cheapo deals. This sort of deal likely won’t happen until September or so, as these vets will be looking for better deals (like Stevenson did years ago), but it is likely to happen.
Maybe
Here is the list of free agents. Lots of bigs. Unfortunately, Juwan in on the list, and we know Jarvis Hayes has experience playing power forward.
Will this be the year that all of you who clamored for Jamaal Maglore get your wish?
Who clamored for Jamaal Magloire?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Mostly some knuckle-draggers who post on Wizards Insider. Not the upscale clientele you have here, Mike.
Sorry, HERE is the list of free agents: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=FreeAgents-09-10
Jamaal Magloire...
I believe the AP Stylebook says that his name is supposed to read “The broken, bloody corpse of Jamaal Magloire”.
Jamaal Magloire the Friendly Ghost?
The Washington Wizards: providing career scoring nights for unknown opposing bench players since 2004.
I would rather have Kwame than Jawhiner
Now THAT’s funny! I’ve said this several times now: We need two old dudes who throw elbows and get rebounds. Being able to run is not a requirement. I’m talking Mutumbo, McDyess, Bowen, Kurt Thomas. You must be at least 38 to apply.
Miller and Foye Press Conference
On the official site.
“Mke Miller and Randy Foye will meet with the media tonight at 7:00pm. WashingtonWizards.com will have live video coverage of the press conference starting at 7:00pm.”
by igetbucketsson on Jun 25, 2009 11:51 AM EDT reply actions
So they're meeting with the media right at the same time the draft starts?
That seems like a bit of an odd time, no?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Well, the official website has been touting draft coverage...
So I guess they gotta give fans some reason to stop by.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
by Kyle Weidie on Jun 25, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Josh Smith
i know we don’t have much left to offer but aren’t the hawks always trying to get rid of him for some reason?
Free agent bigs...
I suppose it depends as always on costs…
But Theo, Rasho, Wilcox and Zaza can play some and each has something to offer. The Hammer is there as an RFA to titillate us Warszawiaks. But from watching him in the Euro leagues, and seeing that he did some nice things with the Mavs this year, I think James Singleton is the kind of player I would like to see on the Wizards.
It would be poetic justice, I suppose, if we grabbed Z or Sideshow Bob from the Cavs, and for all the fun we make of Varejao, he really can play some.
Another Funny
I thought about us acquiring Z when I heard that the Cavs got Shaq. But then I looked at the salaries and realized that we would have to convince Ferry to take on DeShawn in order to make the salaries match. Can you imagine DeShawn playing alongside of LeBron? I don’t think that would work.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
what about Marcus Camby?
James and the 32nd for Camby I believe would be legit.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2009 12:53 PM EDT reply actions
The More I Think About It
The more I think we should focus exclusively on backup centers or bigs that can at least fill-in at center. The reason is, I can see Blatche and McGee holding their own against opposing power forwards on defense, but I don’t envision them being able to guard beefy centers.
We should focus on guys that are at least 6’10" and at least 240 lbs, IMO.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Agreed
We need 2 backup centers (one can be deep deep backup) because the backup bigs we have are more likely PFs. Frankly, I think we also need a third backup backup big.
by MR on Jun 25, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
you think we can get a backup backup backup big for whoever will be backing up the backup backup backup SG?
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Low priced FA or 2nd round pick.
If we traded James or Crit I would expect a backup, not a backup backup backup.
by MR on Jun 25, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah some of our backups of backups of backups are pretty good.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Have I missed someone throwing out Camby's name?
I have seen Kaman and Randolph thrown out there, but it looks like Camby is the one that might move. We’ve talked about signing free agents or drafting a big at 32, but Camby seems to be a perfect solution. The question is “what do the Clips want for him?”
They got Camby straight up for a 2nd rounder last year. The Clips only have one draft pick this year. I say we send Mike James, Deshawn Stevenson and #32 for Camby. They get better backcourt depth from 2 vets. Deshawn is a relatively cheap SG considering how many are overpaid and he’s an LA guy. Mike James has an expiring contract so he’s not really a high risk and is still a major asset. And they get back (actually upgrade) the 2nd rounder they gave up. So they come out with another draft prospect and a backup SG and basically lose about $3 million in expiring money. Plus they also save about 300K on the 2008-09 payroll.
Camby gives the wiz the frontcourt depth, defense and toughness needed. With him being older, it shouldn’t be a problem to be a part of a rotation. He can also be a mentor to Blatche and McGee. He also has a big expiring contract so is can be a major asset at the trade deadline.
Clippers send:
Marcus Camby (10.0 mil)
Total: $10 million
Wizards send:
Mike James (6.24 mil)
Deshawn Stevenson (3.62 mil)
32nd pick
Total: $9.86 million
i like it but i’m not sure the 32nd pick will be enough to convince the Clipse to take James and Stevenson.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
A second rounder was enough to get him from Denver, and we would be giving the Clips more salary flexibility to trade with in addition to an essentially low first round pick but without the guaranteed money. We can always hope.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
The Clips won't take 2 years of Stevenson
Perhaps a James, Crittendon and 32nd would work, since both James and Crittendon are expirings. Maybe the 32nd wouldn’t be needed in that scenario.
And what is Camby’s salary? Hoopshype lists him as $7,650,000 this coming season.
that’s what I thought too, but apparently they’re having a ton of trouble moving a player
...one of those guys who reads all the time but barely comments
by Juice over Whine on Jun 25, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
That's Apparently Wrong
Prada says trust ShamSports, which has him at just under $10 million. If that is the case, Critt’s salary won’t be big enough to make the trade work. We will have to convince them to take DeShawn. His is the only other big salary that we can trade.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
unstoppable
That would be perfect.
...one of those guys who reads all the time but barely comments
by Juice over Whine on Jun 25, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
the problem with giving up both James and Crittendon is it leaves the Wizards a little short in depth at PG.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Right
Right. We need to keep Critt if we can. I’ve heard Foye isn’t great at PG.
...one of those guys who reads all the time but barely comments
by Juice over Whine on Jun 25, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
If we trade Critt
If we traded Critt, I’d want to keep the second rounder and draft Patty Mills. But I don’t see the Clippers taking Deshawn/James/Critt for Camby.
...one of those guys who reads all the time but barely comments
by Juice over Whine on Jun 25, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
We'd be going by the 08-09 salary
7.65 is the 09-10 salary. I’m a little confused as to what the real number is. Hoops Hype says 8 mil. But when I tried a deal for the Wiz to send out 8 mil, Real GM and ESPN rejected it. ESPN says his cap number is 10 mil.
the trade that brought him to LA allowed the Nuggets to shed $10 mil in salary. the proposed trade involving the Wizards wouldn’t do that.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Good Point
But would that mean that they might be open to trading Kaman instead? DeShawn plus James would still be enough salary to make the trade work, and the Clippers would save $23.5 million over the two seasons after next.
My only concern is that it is too much money for a backup center. But otherwise, I think he could really contribute.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Kaman would be great, but given that I’d like the Wizards to resign Haywood and I see McGee as the future at the 5, $30+ million over the next 3 years for Kaman is a lot to pay.
The Wizards are gonna find somebody good though.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I See McGee as a Future 4
But he could surprise me if he really bulks up the way Dwight Howard did.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
haha
I agree McGee is a long term 4. At the same time, Dwight Howard was big coming out of HS. McGee doesn’t have nearly the same frame. he will get bigger but he will never be anywhere close to DH.
Wrong there.
Howard at 18 looked very similar in body type, size, etc… to JaVale McGee
http://www.bulletsforever.com/2009/3/19/804217/similarities
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
The Clips are 'giving' Kaman away like that
He has more value than that.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
Yeah
It only makes sense if the Clippers wanted to shed salary for the 2010 free agent bonanza next summer. Right now, they don’t have enough room under the salary cap next summer to sign a max player after they sign Blake Griffin (only about $10 million under the cap). That would be the only reason to do it. But maybe not enough of a reason to part with an established center.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Camby > Kaman
Kaman uses too many possessions and demands the ball too much to play nicely with our guards + AJ, I think. Maybe he could be effective with the second unit, but would he accept doing that? I don’t know. And would that contract be worthwhile for a completely 2nd-string center?
I would MUCH rather have Camby with his shot blocking, defense, and rebounding. Plus, he just seems like he’d be better for the mentor/grizzled vet role.
I Would Take Either
But the question I’m trying to address is why would the Clippers trade either for James + Stevenson? The only reason the Clips take our two guys is if they are trying to cut salary, which they wouldn’t need to trade Camby to do.
As far as paying too much for Kaman, we would pay almost that much for Camby, so it doesn’t make that much of a difference.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
They have a frontcourt glut
We have a backcourt glut. They could use a PG and SG. We can’t send James and Critt because they still have BD and Mardy Collins. Right now, there is no backup to Eric Gordon. Sending Nick Young would be giving up too much talent for such an old player, plus the salaries don’t work. This trade wouldn’t cost them anything else, it would more efficiently spread their payroll amongst 3 roster spots instead of one player, it better balances their depth, and frees up minutes for Deandre Jordan.
I Would Do It
But I also worry about his age, durability, and his slender frame. Is he still only 220 lbs? Prada had mentioned that his defense is actually overrated, and that in reality he can’t hold his ground against bigger centers. That concerns me.
Still, if nothing better comes along, I say we take a chance and do it. His body under the boards is better than nobody. Plus he is still a stud rebounder (12.9 rebounds per 36 minutes).
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
You know...
It’s the first thing I thought after I saw this trade. I love Camby, he’d be great to have here. Then we’d have some great expiring contracts next year…
...one of those guys who reads all the time but barely comments
by Juice over Whine on Jun 25, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Bosh
Jamison + James + Crittenton (or Young) + 32 for Bosh
might work because its all or nothing for tor this year with Bosh because they are not resigning him this year.
It's not enough I don't think
They’ll wait til the trade deadline to see what they can get.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 25, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope.
Toronto will keep Bosh this season and take the risk.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
Ahmad Nivins
Won’t we be making the same mistake by drafting a guy with the nickname ‘Slim’…. jk… i don’t know a thing about him. he might have a lot of upside.
NY buys LA's 1st round pick
$3 million to get what I believe is the 28th pick.
we are going to cut down to a 8 or 9 man rotation soo we should not add players that will take away valuable playing time that our promising young bigs should get
somthing like Mike James 32nd for DeSagana Diop to be our 3rd C
and sign Kurt Tomas to be our 3rd PF
I Like It
But again, I think Diop would be our backup center because McGee can’t play center yet. His slight frame and athleticism makes him more suitable as a PF.
How much is Kurt Thomas going to demand?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Any way Denver fails to re-sign Chris Anderson?
I would love to see the Birdman coming in to spell Jamison and bringing some real energy and hustle. Maybe he could teach Blatche how try hard.
Am I missing something
or are there just no frontcourt players with bulk available? While the names I’ve seen mentioned are decent, few can be defined as “a bruiser.”
Zaza went head to head with K.G.
I’d take that.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
Me too
Zaza showed some hard-nosed toughness during the playoffs this year.
by 7Swords of Salat on Jun 25, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Still mentally preparing for this...
“The Washington Wizards have traded the 32nd pick in the NBA draft to (insert team here) for cash considerations.”
Can we start a petition demanding any proceeds gained from selling draft picks should be directly applied to lowering ticket and/or concession prices? Call it whatever you want. To me, it’s just fat cats getting fatter…or in the Wiz’s case, skinny, wimpy cats getting richer.
I have to say...
I don’t think I would be angry if the Wizards do end up selling the pick. Here are the reasons:
1. They’re already well over the luxury tax, so the argument that they’re not willing to spend money no longer has any legitimacy. They could’ve shed money a while ago but they chose to try to put together a team that could compete instead and I’m happy for that.
2. Given that NY just got $3 million for their pick just a few slots higher, the Wizards could get somewhere close. Let’s say it’s $2 million. If you add that to the money they’d save by not giving that 2nd round pick a roster spot (about $1 mil salary x2 for the luxury tas), that’s $4 million they could use towards signing a free agent that would surely be more useful than a 2nd round draft pick.
3. Every organization has a budget. to stay within.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
A trade makes more sense
Either for a future pick or filler to get a trade done now. It is an asset, trading it for cash means we lose an asset. But really, what 2nd rounder is going to justify 2 million on a hopefully competitive playoff team? A pick-n-stash makes sense. A trade for a future first rounder makes sense if someone gets enarmored with a 2nd round prospect. Or a trade for someone like Camby (plus Mike James and Stevenson) makes sense. Those all provide tangible assets. Selling the pick for cash doesn’t accomplish that.
cash is an asset
there are teams that are desperately trying to shed salary. the wizards aren’t this year, and making decisions like selling a 2nd round pick can sometimes be the smart move.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't follow you there
Isn’t that just us shedding salary too?
Or are you saying we can use that cash to buy a pick? But we can’t. I’m confused.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Yes, arguably it is “shedding salary.” But every team goes through a process of shedding and adding salary. It’s the net effect that matters. The Wizards for example over the past couple of years have added salary, even if at times they’re “shedding” salary.
When I say cash is an asset I’m arguing that the overall financial health of the team allows them to do things that are good for the long-term prospects of the team – like resigning players like Butler, Haywood, McGuire or Foye.
But also, I find it hard to believe the Wizards won’t add one big player before the season, and it may very well come from free agency. Arguably selling the pick could make signing a free agend more financially sound. So that would be an example of why cash should be viewed as an asset.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
that said...
If the right player is available (ahem… DuJuan Summers) then I’d like to see the Wizards use the pick. I just won’t be too upset if they don’t. What would make me upset is if the Wizards go into next season without more depth in the frontcourt, or after one season well above the luxury cap they choose not to resign key free agents in a big cost cutting move.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Needs some transparency
All your points are valid, but unless someone comes out and says “We signed player X using the money we got for the 32nd pick,” I’m gonna assume the cash went toward shiny new hub caps for all their cars. I’m probably being overly cynical but our roster is far from set. USE THE PICK ERNIE (either in a trade or Taj Gibson)!
i wish things worked that way
but organizations don’t tend to be financially transparent to the public.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
VC on the move for a salary dump and C. Lee
Are you telling me we couldn’t beat this offer? And probably have kept the pick? Etan and James plus our first for VC and their first. Take Blair with theirs? Vince Carter plus Blair > Mike Miller and Foye
If this means no Turkoglu
Then Orlando is now WAY worse than they were last year. How far over the luxury tax do they need to go to keep Turkoglu now, much less re-sign Gortat.
Courtney Lee is more valuable than our #5 pick, so I am actually not sure that we could have beaten that offer, but you are right that Carter + Blair is a better situation than Miller and Foye (though Carter’s contract is really awful).
by Manimal Smith on Jun 25, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Considering his cheaper contract, his heart, his playoff performance, and his willingness to defend, Courtney Lee has a lot to offer. Vince is somewhat of a 1-trick (jump-shooting) pony these days…and an expensive one at that. If Orlando thinks he’ll all of the sudden rediscover his defensive desire, they’re sadly mistaken.
I don't agree
Carter can still play. Turkoglu was pretty overrated until the playoffs.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Really?
I always been a Vince Carter fan, but Turkoglu was the key to the entire Magic offense. Do you really that Vince Carter has the passing ability to run those pick and rolls with Dwight Howard? Does Vince Carter have the 6 10 size to get off those step back jump shots over anyone who guards him?
If they can resign Turkoglu and Vince actually tries, then the Magic just go a lot better. If this move means they are letting Turk walk, then I think this is a horrible trade.
by Manimal Smith on Jun 25, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
the only way this helps them is if Hedo stays
by 7Swords of Salat on Jun 25, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah , but
Can the Wizards match up with:
PG Jameer Nelson (All-Star)
SG Vince Carter (All-Star)
C Dwight Howard (All-Star)
PF Rashard Lewis (All-Star)
SF Hedo Turkoglu
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
wow
that lineup with Matrix would be sick!
by 7Swords of Salat on Jun 25, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
No, neither can anyone else
We have to hope this move means they can’t resign Hedo or Gortat. I think it DEFINITELY means no gortat, and it probably means no Hedo.
by Manimal Smith on Jun 25, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Turkoglu was pretty overrated until the playoffs.
Not sure I understand. His game and his stats were almost identical from the regular season and the playoffs.
by MR on Jun 25, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Turkgolu + Gortat + Courtney Lee > Vince Carter IMO
It’s close, but Vince’ isn’t as tough as any of the players Orlando is losing as a result of this trade. If they still sign Hedo, then they’ll be unstoppable.
I don't know either
I think they are going to pay pay pay, go lux tax…and recoup in ticket sales.
They CAN’T be letting Turk go. They’re almost at the top of the mountain. They’re going Cleveland (ie spend whatever it takes).
by MR on Jun 25, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Hats off to 'em if they do
We’re staring at an insurmountable mountain if Cleveland and Orlando both decide money is no object. Not that we’re staring at a mole hill anyways, but there’s no way we could beat a line up of Nelson, Carter, Hedo, Lewis, and Howard.
Over on the Orlando board
they’re not very optimistic that they will re-sign Hedo
by 7Swords of Salat on Jun 25, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
How much would it cost over the 2 years on VC's deal?
Given luxury tax payout and that VC is making $16 and $17mil wouldn’t it cost them like $50mil for hedo over those two years including his salary and the luxury tax payments.
If he makes $9mil/yr then their luxury tax bill is going to be like a $25mil/yr luxury tax bill right?
I can’t see them resigning him.
by Manimal Smith on Jun 25, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait..
Its less than that becuase they are shedding salary for this year in the deal.
But still – they would basically be paying more than max money just to keep Hedo…
by Manimal Smith on Jun 25, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
let him go
good 3’s are not hard to find. Vince will play some 3 as well. They can spend a lot less on replacement 2’s and 3’s which are readily available on the market.
More valuable to Magic than anyone else
At one point during the playoffs Hedo was guarding the other team’s best player, bringing the ball up the court AND initiating the offense via pick and roll.
Hedo is way more valuable to the Magic than he would be to other people. VC can’t do the same things.
by Manimal Smith on Jun 25, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
He was bringing it up because Jameer had been out for months, and because SVG is a nutcase.
Hedo is not worth 10-11M to anyone. He’s not their best defender, he’s just a tall SF which allows him to use his length to bother people. It doesn’t stop elite players from beating him. Lets not forget these Magic defenders look better because they can funnel guys to Howard.
Never overpay for someone who is WAY more valuable to you than anyone else because that’s the market for him.
Yea....
As much as I dislike Carter … he has been more willing to rebound, pass, and drive lately … and still can.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
Carter would have been my target too
Totally agree. We could have trumped this offer easily with our expirings, Young and even Blatche.
Damn. Rich get richer.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
We could have?
I’m confused. Our offer would have been Etan + Mike James + #5 pick for Carter. Thats NOT as good of an offer as Alston, Battie and Lee.
If we added Young in there then we basically would have used ALL of our assets to acquire Vince Carter and if we threw Blatche in instead then our front line would probably be just as weak as it is now.
I think Carter > Miller + Foye (despite the contract) but I don’t think Carter – NY or Blatche + Lack of cap relief from Darius’s contract > Miller + Foye. I also don’t think there was a chance in hell that we could have gotten NJ’s pick in that deal…
by Manimal Smith on Jun 25, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure it is
- is worth more than Courtney Lee and the rest are just expiring deals.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Really?
I don’t follow college ball much, so I can’t judge the players, but Lee was a starter on the EC champ as a rookie.
by MR on Jun 25, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Lee's a role player
He was picked 23rd in the draft, and while he’s outperformed his draft position, he hasn’t outperformed it that badly. He’s also very old for a rookie so there isn’t much upside there.
We could have traded Etan + Nick + Critt + #5 for Vince and trumped Orlando’s offer. It’s similar cap savings (8.5 million to 10 million) and better young talent. Then, we still have James + Blatche left over for another move.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Lee is only 23 years old. I’m pretty sure he hasn’t peaked.
by 7Swords of Salat on Jun 25, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
What does draft position have to do with anything?
If anything its good that Lee was picked 23rd because it means he has a CHEAP contract. Players are commonly drafted that high. Is Rondo any less valuable because he was drafted in that range?
by Manimal Smith on Jun 25, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't agree.
Maybe I overvalue Lee because he would be the perfect 2 guard for our team (cheap, defense oriented, good 3 point shooter), but I think Lee is better than whoever is available at #5, unless Rubio slips.
James & Thomas are just expiring deals, but Alston and Battie are actually decent players. Its valuable to the Nets not to be completely pathetic this year while they try to build hype for their free agent drawing power and fan support in anticipation of their new stadium.
The trade we made left us with some assets to improve more, to get Carter we’d have to have given up both expirings and take on a huge contract that has more than one year left. Its a close call, but I am happier we did what we did.
by Manimal Smith on Jun 25, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
If none of Harden/Evans/Curry/Derozan has a better career than Lee
Then this draft is about twenty times worse than 2000.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
And I also don't think we need too many assets left after acquiring Carter
Carter’s a major upgrade and it signals we’re really serious. We’d then get cheap veterans willing to come to fill our needs inside.
Again, Etan + James + 5 + Young gives New Jersey everything they want. I doubt they really care if the guys providing cap relief are also functional.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
What cheap veterans could we get more easily
If we had Carter instead of Foye + Miller + James’s Expiring Deal + Young?
Who are the big additions we could make cheaply in free agency because we got VC? Is the likelihood of those things happening higher than trading James + Young/Crit for a potentially better player?
by Manimal Smith on Jun 25, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Trading for Carter would have meant bye-bye Haywood/Butler
in 2 years, wouldn’t it?
I guess what I’m trying to say is the Wiz probably weren’t interested in Carter because of the $$.
Forget Carter
He doesn’t mesh as well as Miller and Foye with the Wiz.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
One of them will but ...
Which one?
Basically, you are arguing that a 25% chance to have a player better than Lee is more valuable than Lee. I don’t buy into that – a cheap young GOOD defending, 3 point shooting 2 guard is a valuable commodity.
by Manimal Smith on Jun 25, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
This draft is about 20 times worse than 2000
Courtney Lee will have a better career than 3 of those 4 guys….
Harden may be a little better….
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Lee
not sure if I’d rather have #5 than C.Lee. I think he has as much upside as Harden or Evans.
by 7Swords of Salat on Jun 25, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Lee is a proven commodity
He got about as much experience as any rookie could get in one year and was a strong starter for the EC champs. The only reason to say that Evans or Harden have more upside is that we really don’t know what they will do in the league – we know that Lee is good and we know he could also get better. Evans and Harden aren’t proven and so I think any potential upside is outweighed by flop-potential as compared to Lee.
by Manimal Smith on Jun 25, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
NJ
One of my favorite underpaid guys is Keyon Dooling. Would have been a top target for a backup guard before the MIN trade.
That guy always kills us...
I find it interesting that NJ’s starting backcourt is Devin Harris and Courtney Lee. It’s a talented, but small, tandem.
Camby!! ...?
I think he really should our target, but I don’t know if we can get him without giving up:
James + Crittendon + #32.
On the one hand this trade would be perfect because it meets our needs for defense, rebounding and shot blocking on the front line without messing up our salary cap information, but on the other hand it clouds are backup PG situation and robs us of all our remaining assets and flexibility until December 15 when we can repackage our expiring contracts.
Does anyone think we could get the Clippers to take:
James + Stevenson + #32 + Future Second Round Pick for Camby?
I think Miller and Foye was a better deal...
Alston tanked in the playoffs and is 32 years old to boot, Lee is 80% of Foye at best and Tony Battie is a bigger Michael Ruffin… Time to get past this on on to phase 2… aka project serious backup big.
agreed
if the wizards add a serious backup big along with miller, foye, a healthy Arenas and Haywood, it’ll be one of the best offseasons I can remember as a sports fan.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 25, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Lux Tax Nugget
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/insider/news/story?page=09DraftBuzz-090625
One reason teams such as the San Antonio Spurs are willing to move into luxury-tax range is the reward for staying below the tax won’t be as large in the upcoming season. Last year teams that stayed below the luxury tax received $3 million each from their cut of the money put into the pot by the tax-paying teams. Next season, according to one team executive, the payout for the non-tax teams will be about $1.4 million. One reason for the decrease is that two of the top-paying tax teams from last season, the New York Knicks and Dallas Mavericks, will have much smaller payrolls this year. The Knicks’ tax bill, for example, could drop by about $20 million.
What is everybody most interested in seeing tonight?
For me, it’s whether Rubio falls to 5. If he does, I’m REALLY going to hate the Miller/Foye trade. If he doesn’t (and some of Ernie’s comments suggested that he knew no one they really liked would be there at 5), then perhaps the trade won’t be so bad.
Ya - to OKC or to someone else
No chance that someone doesn’t trade up to #3 if OKC doesn’t take him (which they will I think)
by Manimal Smith on Jun 25, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a canard
They’ll NEVER pass up Rubio.
Bank on it…
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I'm watching
Rubio: the unknown
Harden: my pick at 5
Brandon Jennings?
My Heels: Hansbrough, Ellington, Lawson and Green
Pendergraph: my pick at 32
Stevenson + James + 32nd for 3rd from OKC?????
…haha
...one of those guys who reads all the time but barely comments
by Juice over Whine on Jun 25, 2009 5:21 PM EDT reply actions
Well, another blockbuster trade.....and draft thoughts....
In our division to:
“The New Jersey Nets have agreed in principal to send Vince Carter(notes) and Ryan Anderson to the Orlando Magic for Rafer Alston(notes), Tony Battie(notes) and Courtney Lee(notes), two league executives told Yahoo! Sports.”
-Yahoo Sports….
and…..
There are some interesting big men that are out there including Luke Nevil from Utah. e has some skills which is like a really improved Peter John Ramos right out of the blocks…
by Aquamaneastfish on Jun 25, 2009 5:22 PM EDT reply actions
If
If we come out of tonight with a big man, I will be a happy one. And I DON’T mean just a Euro stash.
Then again, if we don’t, I’m sure we’ll add one eventually. I just think tonight is our best chance at getting a really good one, instead of an average FA
...one of those guys who reads all the time but barely comments
by Juice over Whine on Jun 25, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Hadn't heard the Anderson add-on
It’s interesting ‘cause Anderson is kind of a Hedo-light. Maybe they’re not gonna sign Turkolu after all…
Vince Carter traded to Orlando Magic!
http://www.nj.com/sports/mustsee/index.ssf/2009/06/nj_nets_nets_agree_to_move_car.html
The top of the east is getting scarier and scarier. The Wizards are going to have to do more than just Randy Foye and Mike Miller if they want to truly compete with the beasts on top of the east. Is there anybody we can actually get to help put us over the top and compete with these teams? I just don’t see how the Wizards will be able to keep up with the likes of Orland, Cleveland, or Boston. Here comes another first round exit year, sorry to say.
The ante has definitely been raised...
I pray that Mr Pollin meant it when he said the McDuck vaults have been opened.
I dunno
I think we could grab the 4 or 5 slot…
...one of those guys who reads all the time but barely comments
by Juice over Whine on Jun 25, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Gotta hope that Hedo
Gets $10mil/yr to play elsewhere and the Magic at best tread water.
by Manimal Smith on Jun 25, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Ernie just said
We’ll pick up a veteran later this summer. I bet he’s selling the pick. I’ll read about the draft in the paper tomorrow.
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