Why is Foye so much worse than Hinrich?

by mamemimo on Jun 24, 2009 6:58 PM EDT Comment 17 comments

Before we traded the #5, a lot of people wanted to trade the #5 to the Bulls for Kirk Hinrich. I'm not gonna lie, I was definitely NOT one of them. I know that he's a decent to good defender - at the point - but I didn't like him at the two at all.

Now we picked up Randy Foye in a trade for #5, along with dumping some salary, as well as picking up Mike Miller (who should thrive in a Korver/Kapono/White guy with last name that begins with "K" apparently role) and the reaction to this trade seems to be pretty negative.

Now, I'm a little bit on the fence about this deal - it does leave our team unbalanced, but I think we will make some sort of move to get some frontcourt help - and I definitely would like the deal a whole lot more if we got a 1st rounder (preferably the 18) back from the T-Wolves. But then I researched Foye a little and I started thinking about Hinrich.

Look, I'm not gonna lie. I don't know that much about Foye. I haven't been paying attention to his career, except for the whole "traded straight up for Brandon Roy" stigma he was stuck with in Minnesota. So I started looking at his stats - 16 points, 4 assists and 3 boards last year is not bad. Hinrich had arguably his best year in 06-07 when he averaged 16 points, 6 assists and 3 boards. Also for his career Foye has essentially the same FG% and 3PT% as Hinrich. (And yes, I am cherry picking stats a little.)

Now reports vary on whether or not Foye can defend. I'm going to take this to assume that he's a decent defender - I'm going to assume he's about as good as a healthy DeShawn - and that's not great, but not terrible. And I'll agree that Hinrich is a pretty good defender. What I like about Foye more than I did with Hinrich, is size. Foye is an inch taller and about 20-25 pounds bigger than Hinrich. Since Foye/Hinrich would be defending the two guard (and I'm assuming Foye would start in the backcourt with Arenas, see above with Miller in the Korver role), I am far more comfortable with Foye there because of his better size.

Also, Foye appears to be developing, while Hinrich has probably peaked (although he is 28, so I may be selling him a bit short). Foye comes at less than half the price of Henrich, with two years less on his deal, and is almost three years younger, so is it such a bad thing that we got him instead of Hinrich?

That being said I still don't know if I'm just trying to talk myself into this trade or not. One thing I do know is, I'm glad we didn't trade for Hinrich, dude looks like Frodo.

Poll

Who would you rather have?

Randy Foye

30 votes

Kirk Hinrich

14 votes

Frodo!

9 votes

53 votes | Poll has closed

This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.

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Im still sorta uneasy about this trade just because I was a Darius fan and I dont care if I was the only one lol but I like Foye’s potential he brings and I hope to see him and Miller play maybe not big but important roles this coming season.

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by purpleonblack86 on Jun 24, 2009 7:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

My thoughts of this deal basically come down to...

us trading one player(5th overall pick) for two decent players with foye having the potential to still be a good player(not that he isnt, just better than he currently is)

by gilbachi on Jun 24, 2009 9:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It was more than Hinrich fit better next to Arenas

And in helping to address the team’s weaknesses without taking away from its strengths. The context matters, because you’re right, Foye’s probably at least as good overall. Hinrich was just a better fit.

But this is a fair point. Do you want Foye for 3 million next year and maybe for mid-level money going forward, or do you want Hinrich for 27 million or whatever until 2012? It’s easy to say the former.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jun 24, 2009 9:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

See, I'm not entirely sure about it.

Again – haven’t seen the kid play, so take this with a grain of salt, but Foye seems like he might fit in a little better with Arenas than Hinrich. We know that Arenas can excel with a slashing style shooting guard that can handle some point duties – the Larry Hughes era. And if the kid has the tools to be a good defender, maybe he could be.

The more I think about this trade, the more I like it. I think I see what Ernie was thinking here. Now let’s see if he can turn Mike James/DSteve/etc into another big man.

The Washington Wizards: providing career scoring nights for unknown opposing bench players since 2004.

by mamemimo on Jun 24, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It depends on your criteria

Mine were spelled out here. Based on that, Hinrich fit in better than practically anyone according to the numbers.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Jun 25, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If for nothing else

than Hinrich is a very good defensively – and is a good spot up shooter.

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by Rook6980 on Jun 25, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And Yet

Miller was right behind Hinrich in terms of fit. So we get two guys who could potentially be good players alongside of Arenas for the price of the #5 pick and Darius. I think I’m with mamemimo, the more I think about this trade, the more I like it.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jun 25, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just out of curiosity

I didn’t see Foye’s name in that analysis. How would he fit, according to the numbers?

The Washington Wizards: providing career scoring nights for unknown opposing bench players since 2004.

by mamemimo on Jun 25, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I liked Hinrich

because I HAVE seen both Foye and Hinrich – and Foye cannot play defense – whereas Hinrich does…

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Jun 24, 2009 10:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Funny

Based on all of the analysis here, I am inclined to agree with you. But Ernie Grunfeld sees things differently. From the Wizards’ press release, quoting Ernie Grunfeld:

Mike is one of the NBA’s elite three-point shooters who can really stretch the defense and provide an all-around game, and Randy has shown the ability to create scoring opportunities for himself and his teammates while providing excellent perimeter defense. Their skills complement our core very well and they will provide a boost as we re-establish ourselves as a contender in the Eastern Conference.

[bold text added by me]

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jun 25, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't go that far

and Foye cannot play defense

I think he has the ability and skills to play good D(save for against big 2’s, but Hinrich would struggle with them also), and his role on the Wizards will emphasize perimeter D much more then in MN, when he was counted on to be the lead guard.

I think that his D will be much improved on the Wiz and he is going to blossom into a very nice all around player. Maybe he’ll develop like Caron did once he landed in Wash (Both are/were, young, talented, top ten picks in need of a stable situation), and Ernie can add another great trade to his resume.

by DT711 on Jun 25, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For what its worth

Foye was a good defender in College. From draft express…

Defensively, Foye is usually just as aggressive as he is on the offensive end, possessing nice footwork and good lateral quickness. He’s willing and able to get right in his man’s grill to play tough pressure defense, stick his nose in for the charge, or come up with his fair share of steals thanks to his hands and anticipation skills. His strength and tenacity help him out greatly in this area too, as he’s the type of player that just will not be backed down without a fight. This shows up in the rebounding department as well, where he is extremely aggressive and has kept his undersized team in many games solely off the way he would help take care of the glass. This is where his toughness and leaping ability really become evident, as he likes to sky straight into the air off two feet and rip a rebound away from anyone regardless of their size.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Randy-Foye-454/

by DT711 on Jun 25, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like this trade for you, if gilbert can stay on the floor.

The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.

by faith on Jun 25, 2009 2:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

These players aren't that comparable

Hinrich is much, much more of a true one guard, and he’s a legitimate defensive asset.

Foye is much, much more of a Flip Murray type of “lead guard,” and is probably closer to Murray as a defender. He’s sure no Hinrich; Kirk can defend three spots, more or less, and Foye has never been used as a defensive stopper type in his life.

by feral on Jun 25, 2009 9:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hinrich defend three spots?

I agree with Hinrich being a true point, and Foye DEFINITELY being a combo guard – but one of my points was with Gil healthy we don’t need a true point – he’s going to be handling those duties whether or not he’s the best at it on the team.

Hinrich can guard point guards very well, shooting guards pretty well, but I’d sooner start Songaila at the 5 than put Hinrich on a 3.

The Washington Wizards: providing career scoring nights for unknown opposing bench players since 2004.

by mamemimo on Jun 25, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs