Rumors with the Wizards and Knicks ... that I don't like
by Mike Prada on Jun 22, 2009 8:56 AM EDT
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PrintThere will be many rumors from today until draft day, so buckle up folks. The latest one with the Wizards involves the New York Knicks, and not in a way that would intrigue most people here. From Alan Hahn at Newsday:
There have been recent conversations between the teams about players, mainly ones the Wizards are interested in on the Knicks roster. But what may come as a surprise is that Wilson Chandler doesn't appear to be the main ingredient here. In fact, from multiple sources with knowledge of the Wizards' strategizing, they're the ones who have inquired about two former Wiz players, Larry Hughes and Jared Jeffries.
The Knicks are all ears.
To be clear, Hahn isn't saying that the Wizards would move the fifth pick for Larry Hughes or Jared Jeffries. The whole deal with the Knicks rose out of a rumor on NBADraft.net that suggested the two teams were considering a proposal that would swap picks for Wilson Chandler. Hahn's first blog post on the subject, in addition to shooting down this rumor, included this tidbit.
And how about this one: the Wizards are getting the word out that they are mulling between seven -- yes, seven -- players to take at No. 5.
Seven players. Seriously?
That would suggest two things: 1. this is a really deep draft and you can't go wrong with any of these players in the top 10 (survey sez? Bzzzzz!) or 2. the Wizards absolutely do not want this pick and are trying to scare someone above them into trading down.
(snip)
What we're hearing is the Wizards are having trouble moving this pick, mainly because as they hoped to package it with Gilbert Arenas or Antawn Jamison to get some salary cap relief. But teams are only asking for Caron Butler. He, however, is as untouchable as it gets.
So for now Washington can only play the poker game and let the rest of the draft know they could spoil someone's plans by choosing one of the following players: James Harden, Jordan Hill, Tyreke Evans, Stephen Curry, Jonny Flynn, DeMar DeRozan or Brandon Jennings.
Normally, when a line like that comes up, I immediately launch into attack mode and remind people that it doesn't make sense for the Wizards to cut salary. This time, though, Michael Lee preemptively did the job for me with some real reporting.
I can also tell you that unless he is totally blown away, Ernie Grunfeld does not plan on trading any of his Big Three (Gilbert Arenas, Caron Butler or Antawn Jamison) in any deal. His hope is to use the fifth pick as his primary asset in any deal, not the pick and one of his top three players. The goal is to add to the Wizards' core, not subtract from it.
Point is, I don't see anything to suggest that the Knicks and Wizards will swap picks. The rumors about Hughes and Jeffries make some sense because they were there at the trade deadline, and it's possible they're there again. The Wizards could theoretically convert their two expiring contracts (Mike James, Etan Thomas) into one (Hughes) and run Hughes at shooting guard. The problem is that Hughes isn't any good anymore, will steal shots from the Big 3 and minutes from Nick Young and Dominic McGuire. From a payroll standpoint, it makes more sense to have two smaller expiring contracts than one mega expiring deal for the purposes of flexibility.
Basically, forget the Knicks as an option. There's one guy I want on that team, and he's a free agent (David Lee).
Other tidbits:
- Mike Jones quotes Ernie Grunfeld shooting down the idea of the Wizards needing to cut salary: "The Wizards' financial situation could be a factor. With 14 players under contract, Washington already has $75.9 million committed to salaries for next season. The luxury tax spending threshold is expected to drop to roughly $69 million, and teams are permitted to carry only 15 players, so Washington could need to make a move to gain flexibility going into next season. But Grunfeld said that perception is overblown and that the Wizards are under no pressure to deal the pick for financial or roster reasons."
- Draft Express: "The Wizards have been bombarded with trade offers as of late, some of them more realistic than others, but it’s not a given that they will decide to trade the pick. If Rubio is on the board, all indications are that the Wizards would take him, and worst comes to worse, deal with the repercussions of him staying in Europe for another year or two until his buyout situation gets resolved. There aren’t many teams that are higher on Rubio’s upside than Washington." This in response to Sacramento cooling on Rubio, for reasons that seem silly to me. If Ricky's there, pick him.
- Michael Lee asks: What about Jrue Holiday? All the other top point guards have cycled through DC except him, so he wonders what's up. Part of the answer, according to a league source, is his agent, Dan Fegen. The same Dan Fegan that is Ricky Rubio's agent.
- Speaking of Lee, he also reports that Florida's Nick Cathales, the one who signed a contract to play in Greece, and Boston College's Tyrese Rise are workout out with the Wizards today. If Cathales is available, he's a great draft-and-stash option, which makes sense because the Wizards already have 14 players under contract. The Wizards are done working out prospects for the fifth pick.
- Bon Finnan of the News-Herald (Cleveland-area paper): "The Wizards say forward Antawn Jamison is not available."
- Two league scouts are quoted as being very high on Tyreke Evans.
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I have no idea...
who Wilson Chandler is, LOL. That tells me he’s not the final piece to push us over the top. I think Jared Jefferies is horrible, and Larry Hughes gets hurt too much. Yuck on all this stuff from the Knicks. I love watching the Knicks draft. They always pick some schlub I’ve never heard of, and the pick never pans out. Avoid the Knicks like the plague.
Wilson Chandler?
I never heard of him either but if Ernie Grunfeld likes him, I trust his judgement. I would rather Harden or Evans though. We still need a thug in the paint to compliment Mcgee, Haywood, Jamison, and Blatche. I say trade into the first round around 10 to 15 or so and get Blair. Does anyone agree? I think we have enough to make that happen.
I have
heard of Wilson Chandler. He impresses me about as much as Wilson Philips. He can score from the 3 spot, and that’s about it. Not overly impressive at rebounding or defending. No thanks. We have enough scorers.
oh yeah
We still need a thug in the paint to compliment Mcgee, Haywood, Jamison, and Blatche.
-a guy after my own heart. Couldn’t agree more. I’m glad to know I’m not the only one who feels this way
I say trade into the first round around 10 to 15 or so and get Blair. Does anyone agree? I think we have enough to make that happen.
Do you mean trade UP from the #32 pick, still keeping the #5? Now that scenario I could deal with. Dump Thomas, Pech, maybe Stevenson and/or Songalia, and get Blair? That’d be a win in my book. Totally hypothetical of course, but if we came out of this draft with, say, Harden AND Blair, I think that’d be a huge step towards solidifying us as a force for the foreseeable future.
Finally!!!
I am glad someone agrees with me. My brother and I have been telling our friend this for weeks but they don’t get it. At least there is intelligence in this Bullets universe. Those two draft pick would be better than us getting Amare or some other big name player.
by Danyon Rome on Jun 22, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
If Nothing Better Comes Along
Then I’m OK with swapping #5, Etan, and James for #8 and Larry Hughes. Hughes is an upgrade for us at the 2 guard and has excellent chemistry with Gilbert. He may not be as good as he was for us in 2004-05, but I think he could still have some value and would expect to see at least a slight resurgence of his game once he is paired with Arenas again.
With the #8 pick we could easily still get DeJuan Blair, who fits our needs best and is probably the most NBA ready player available. Since we don’t know who we like anyway, dropping 3 spots is probably not that big of a deal, again unless we get a better offer, which is not hard to imagine.
As for the whole expiring contract flexibility thing, that would make sense if you figure we will be players in next season’s trade deadline, but I imagine that Ernie wants to get all of his ducks in a row before the season starts. And let us not forget that it is much better to have an expiring contract that can contribute significantly on the court than two expiring contracts that give a team 0 value other than salary relief.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
You are right, EG ain't getting fleeced....
which suggests we won’t be seeing Hughes back as a Wizard. The man had his career year with us and management knew it…. and that is why they let him walk rather than pay him what the Cavs were willing to pay. Look at his stats and down time since he left here. This is not a minor drop-poff, its a plunge into complete mediocrity!
The only Knick that makes sense for the Wiz, as others have noted, is Lee.
Three more days…. and at least some of the truth will be known.
Except
Ernie did not let him walk, he tried desperately to keep him. He wound up offering more money to Hughes than Cleveland did, but Larry turned him down because he felt insulted by Ernie’s initial hardball offers.
It is true that Larry’s career has gone south after leaving Washington, but I doubt that was because Larry forgot how to play basketball. He fed off of Arenas’s game and fit in perfectly with this team. He was always a square peg for round holes in Cleveland and Chicago. Although our team has changed a lot since then, we still have a core that contains Arenas, Haywood, and Jamison that he’s used to.
Besides, Ernie would not be fleeced if he took Hughes back. He would be trading two worthless players (in terms of on-court contributions) and three draft positions for an upgrade at SG. If Hughes has even a minor resurgence after returning it would be a gain for the Wizards.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
If We Can
Then great. I’m just saying I would be optimistic even if that was the best Ernie could do. Let us hope he does better.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
I agree
There are countless options that I’d rather see, and perhaps one of them involves keeping the 5th pick, but I can certainly appreciate why Grunfeld would be willing to make such a trade. It might depend on who’s available at 8 (and the trade surely wouldn’t happen until it’s the Knicks turn) but there’s no question Hughes can contribute more to the team than James and Thomas combined.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 22, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm honestly not so sure about that
Last we heard of Hughes, he was basically paid not to play in Chicago. James offered just as much as Hughes last season, if not more.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I agree, except
for the injury part. Larry has been injury prone. Even here in Washington, he never played more than 67 games.
Cleveland was a terrible fit for Larry – as was Chicago… And he’s a pretty good fit as a back-court mate to Areans.
But again, I’d be really leery of his injury issues.
If Kirk Hinrich is not available…. I guess I’d be OK with bringing back Hughes – AS LONG AS we stay in the first round (swap picks with the Knicks). Giving up two roster spots for Hughes means that the Wizards could use BOTH picks this year.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Yeah, I'm the Same
I wouldn’t be jumping up and down with joy if such a deal went down, but I wouldn’t be complaining either. I think it would be somewhat of a positive for us, and better than no moves at all.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
No
This is not good enough. We need to make a move to try to be the best team in the NBA or at least the East. Larry is not good enough and gets hurt too much for a injury prone team.
I'm not a Hughes fan
If we had Hughes and the 8th, I’d probably want to package them for the 5th to get Harden.
...one of those guys who reads all the time but barely comments
by Juice over Whine on Jun 22, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
you mean Harden, Thomas and Mike
There is of course a difference.
by Johnnie Futbol on Jun 22, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Contract Year
I like the idea of Hughes in a contract year.
Getting Jeffries seems redundant to McGuire for an extra 5Mil this year and 6.8 next though. Unless Dom can really get his shot going they couldn’t be on the floor together.
So what about…
Larry Hughes
#8
- for -
#5
Etan
Deshawn
Pesh
We’d still sit at 8 and have Mike James as a salary chip.
Me Too
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
i suppose it is acceptable....
but if we can do better, we should try… Ernie’s match to Hughes was when he was all but out the door, i never thought that offer was done for anything other than team politics but maybe i am wrong.
Upset
That is how I would be. Hughes takes too many shots. To me he seemed selfish. The Wiz were better after he left and became and EX Wizard.
Except
The Wizards never had a better record nor a better playoff result than when they had Hughes. I actually thought the team was more exciting to watch when Hughes was on the team. What impressed me the most about the 04-05 squad was that they were never out of a game, even when they were down double digits in the 4th quarter. Had that team had a better bench, they might have even taken two or three games from the Heat.
To be fair, the 2006-07 team was better before Antawn got hurt. They then lost Gil and Caron and the rest was history. But I still think Hughes would make this team better. They have never really had a good SG since he left.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
The problem is that Hughes is no longer a good shooting guard at all
Let’s not live in the past too much. The Hughes of 04/05 ain’t walking through that door.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
All I Can Say to That Is
If Larry is not good anymore, then Ernie would not be inquiring about him. I respect your analysis a lot, Mike, but I respect Ernie’s a bit more. This is the third time I read that Ernie has tried to reacquire Larry, after letting him get away in free agency. Obviously he still likes what he sees.
Of course, the data points to a decline in Hughes’s game, I won’t deny that. But I still feel that chemistry with teammates can go a long way towards increasing a player’s value. I have a hunch that if Larry were ever reunited with Gil, you would see a lot more from him then his stats might otherwise indicate.
Again, this is just a hunch. But I trust that Ernie will do the right thing here.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
nooooo please god noo noo nooooo lol
we can get Hughes with out trading out of the strong side of this weak draft … after the 7th this draft take a deep fall
Etan+Mike+ 32nd pick
for
Hughes
the Knick want a late 1st they have been working out late 1st round prospects and the 32nd is close enough
they aren’t giving up a productive player for 2 duds and a second rounder. They want to move up in the first round to get Rubio or Curry. Thats the only reason we’re having the conversation with them.
i dont think we should pass up on Tyreke Evans or James Harden for a injury prone player …. i like Larry but not that much to drop to the 8th …..which is no better than dropping to the 12th or out the lottery
actually I agree
we’re talking so trades, so its a free for all. But that deal doesn’t give the Wiz a boost for the next 2-3 years. It gives them Hughes for 1. The best option for year one might be Hughes but years 2-5+ would be Harden. I don’t buy the Evans as a PG angle at all.
8th is worth what someone will pay for it. No doubt its better than having 10, 11 12 etc simply because there are more players to choose from. Plus there are pretty clearly 10-12 players with star potential before you get into the huge question marks. The idea that we could get Hughes for 3 slots is probably silly if only for the value of his expiring contract.
If
If we can package a player and the 32 pick for a better player, I’m all for it. Especially if we keep the 5th pick. We probably can’t keep the 2nd round player anyway! I’m not too excited about the draft and stash options at 32, honestly.
That said, if we free up a space to keep the pick from a 5 trade, is anyone interested in Mr. Patrick Mills? Danny Green? Nick Calathes (again, a stash…)?
...one of those guys who reads all the time but barely comments
by Juice over Whine on Jun 22, 2009 1:24 PM EDT reply actions
eddie jordan isn't here anymore
so that might be another factor in terms of hughes’s future performance in dc being nowhere near what it was.
how bad is deshawn’s contract anyway? that post above got me wondering… i’m worried about his back, big time.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Jun 22, 2009 5:07 PM EDT reply actions
No
to Hughes. No to Jeffries. No to Jarvis Hayes. No to Ben Wallace. No to Calbert Cheaney, Ike Austin, and Hot Plate Williams. Move away from the past. It’s time to look at the future. Hughes is not an upgrade for us. What good is a guy in a suit? He doesn’t play. Haven’t we had enough injury problems? Why would we want to trade for a walking injury?
I agree
We need to let go of 5 seasons ago and get some new people in here instead of trying to get the 04-05 band back together again so we can get bounced in the 2nd round.
Bring in Josh Howard, Mike Miller, Kirk Hinrich, Jason Terry, Tayshaun Prince or somebody. The only former Wizard I wouldnt mind seeing on this team is Rip Hamilton. I would be highly disappointed in EG if all he gets is Hughes and Jeffries.
I actually
think Rip will be in decline soon. While he is no doubt one of the best conditioned players in the game, he is still slight, to put it mildly. I’m not sure how much longer he will be an above average player. He also does nothing for our defense. Once again, I would rather bring in a rookie who could end up being a gem.
I'd rather make a trade
but if not im all for James Harden.
ESPN Draft Blog...
Trying to figure out how ESPN came to this conclusion from reading this article?
•The reason there isn’t one clear front-runner, it appears, is that the Wizards are hoping to package Gilbert Arenas or Antawn Jamison in the deal, but people are asking only about Caron Butler, who is untouchable. This comes from the blog Bullets Forever, in a summary of the variety of No. 5 pick rumors.
by WizardsExtreme2 on Jun 23, 2009 11:37 AM EDT reply actions
Mike Referenced the Rumor
But did not intend to suggest it. It shows that we are being read by big time reporters, although not fully comprehended.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
I guess
this blog isn’t elite enough to get the title of “un-named sources.” Too bad. but this is funny. Shows what a joke these supposed “experts” actually are. They have to troll fan blogs to get information. Never mind that we don’t have any more access than they do.
That may change during Summer League
I’m going, and hopefully having credentials too.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
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