Who is Gilbert Arenas' ideal backcourt mate?
UPDATE: I put my entire collection of data in a Google document for all to see here. Please check it out if you have questions about those not listed.
A couple weeks ago, we talked about trying to find a way to classify Gilbert Arenas on a "pure point guard" basis. I contrasted a point guard's assist percentage with the percentage of points he scored off assists to come up with a chart to measure the starting point guards in the league. Gilbert's four-year average in both of those categories from 2003/04 to 2006/07 placed him moderately below-average relative to point guards in assist percentage and slightly above-average in percentage of points assisted. That put him closer to "finishers" like Steve Blake and Derek Fisher than "pure points" like Chris Paul and Steve Nash.
So, now that we've established that Arenas is a below-average passer and above-average scorer off the pass relative to most point guards, it's time to figure out how to best complement his diverse skills. The findings from the last post indicate that an ideal backcourt mate for Arenas needs to be a good perimeter shooter, an above-average passer for his position and an excellent perimeter defender. Beyond that, it would be nice if the player didn't create too many plays for himself and (assuming Arenas' recovery allows him to drive the lane like before) shot mostly jumpers in order to improve the floor balance.
To measure shooting ability, I took every shooting guard in the league this year and tracked their effective field goal percentage on jumpers (via 82games). The average eFG% on jumpers for sampled shooting guards was 46.6 percent. To measure passing, I used assist percentage (via BR). The average AST% of those sampled was 14.7%.To track defense, I decided to use two categories: two-year adjusted plus/minus and on/off defensive efficiency, otherwise known as the difference between a team's defensive efficiency with the player on the court versus him off the court (both are via Basketball Value). Those who were positive in both were placed in a special category. I realize the latter is a very incomplete way of measuring defense, so I'll explain times where the numbers jive with subjective opinions.
The results? There aren't many shooting guards who fit well, but there are some and they are attainable.
Narrowing down the criteria
It's fair to ask why I picked the three necessary qualities for a wing mate next to Gilbert Arenas. Here, I'll try to explain each one.
Defense: I think this is the most self-explanatory of the three. It's clear Gilbert Arenas is not a good defender. Whether that is a question of desire, concentration, quickness or a combination of all three, a backcourt mate next to Arenas needs to be able to check top wing players competently. The fact that Caron Butler and Antawn Jamison are also poor defenders makes this need even more paramount. The Wizards, during the Eddie Jordan era, played awful team defense, so even though adding one wing defender won't solve all the team's problems, it will help to turn a major weakness into at least less of a weakness.
Shooting: Even when the Wizards' offense was clicking, they were not a particularly great shooting team. Their eFG% rankings from 2005-2007, Arenas' last healthy stretch: 21st, 20th, 18th. The Wizards compensated by getting to the free throw line, limiting turnovers and pounding the offensive glass, but their perimeter shooting was always a weakness. Last season, with everyone injured, the Wizards were second-worst in eFG% in the league and also finished second-to-last in three-point percentage. Clearly, the offense needs shooters to become more diverse.
In addition, Arenas himself draws so much attention that you want to surround him with shooting to make teams pay for ganging up on him. Arenas will drive and dish when he has the opportunity, but the best shooter the Wizards have surrounded him with is DeShawn Stevenson, and he's never been an elite perimeter guy. Having a spot-up shooter will make the offense and Arenas better.
Passing: This is the most contentious of the three essential traits, but the data collected in the last post on Arenas indicates its importance. Arenas is, first and foremost, a scorer. It's what he does best. Very few players in the league were able to be as efficient as Arenas (using TS% and the like, not FG%) while using as many possessions as him during his peak. He's not a point guard and he's not a shooting guard. He's a scoring guard who can pass, but who can also score. Take a look at how his AST% and %assisted stacks up with several elite shooting guards in this league.
Arenas: 25.65 AST%, 39% assisted
Kobe Bryant: 23.8 AST%, 37% assisted
Joe Johnson: 26.4 AST%, 39% assisted
Brandon Roy: 25.1 AST%, 33% assisted
All three of those guys are among the elite scoring guards in the league. Arenas played a lot like them when he was healthy, and did so very effectively. There's no reason to change Arenas' game too much where he's the only one really initiating offense.
Since Arenas' scoring is a big strength, it pays to find a shooting guard who can create opportunities for him. An offense where Arenas is the creator and everyone else is a finisher is not a good use of the team's strengths. Frankly, it would look a lot like Cleveland's LeBron offense right now. It would also put way too much pressure on Arenas and would undermine efforts to make him a better defensive player and more of a team-oriented guy, whatever the latter means. Arenas should be controlling the ball most of the time, but he often does best with others who can create for him as well, like Larry Hughes circa 2005 or Antonio Daniels of late 2006 and 2007.
Now, it's true that the Wizards have another potential facilitator in Caron Butler. In 2007/08, with Arenas sidelined, Butler posted a career-high assist percentage (21.9) that was close to Kobe Bryant levels. But anecdotally, Butler really struggled this year as a facilitator and does not seem to be as good a passer than the number indicates. His turnover percentage went up this year as his assists went down, and he has never been particularly adept at passing off pick-and-roll situations. I'd like to see Arenas play off Butler more, and he can, but I wonder how well it's going to work when Butler has never been that type of player with Arenas healthy. Butler's finishing skills, which are excellent, haven't really been on full display since Arenas got hurt. If the potential shooting guard could also facilitate, it would create more open looks for Butler AND Arenas, which both need.
So, passing is important. Elite isn't a necessity, but above-average is.
Secondary criteria: I'd rather have a jump-shooter than a slasher since the Wizards already have enough guys who operate best inside of 18 feet (Butler, Jamison, Haywood, Songaila, Young, Blatche, etc). Being a spot-up shooter is also important, though if the guy can shoot, it doesn't matter to me all that much whether it's spotting up or off the dribble. The usage should be somewhere in the middle; not too much like Joe Johnson, but not too little like Quinton Ross or Dominic McGuire. Basically, someone who is capable of making plays, but won't try to make them too much.
Our current roster
Now that we know the criteria, let's see how our current shooting guards stack up:
DeShawn Stevenson: We can effectively toss out last season's version of DeShawn Stevenson, as he was struggling with injuries that really affected his performance. If you must know, Stevenson was 63rd out of 67 surveyed players with a dreadful 37.6% eFG% on jump shots. His two-year adjusted plus/minus of -1.13 ranked him 71st out of 113 surveyed players (remember, that's two-year APM, so it includes 2007/08 when he was healthy). The one area that Stevenson was slightly above-average was passing, as his 16.3 assist percentage ranked him 25th out of 67. However, that's mostly a case of diminshing returns -- with so many players out, someone had to pick up some assists, and Stevenson played a lot more lead guard than in the past.
That last sentence is a perfect segue back to an analysis of Stevenson's 2006/07 season. Many of you have claimed that the 2006/07 version of Stevenson was actually a pretty good fit next to Gilbert. A closer look reveals that, at least according to my criteria, that's not really true. To his credit, Stevenson did get it done to some degree in the perimeter shooting department, nailing 47.4% of his open jumpers, just above the 46.7 average for SGs this season. Otherwise, though, he was below average. His assist percentage that year was 14.3, slightly below the 14.7 average. Defensively, we don't have access to his APM, but the Wizards actually allowed 2.5 fewer points/100 possessions with him off the court.
This isn't to say Stevenson was a complete misfit. He shot decently, passed okay and played passable defense. But with so many scores close to the average, it's fair to ask whether Stevenson's numbers were actually inflated playing next to Arenas. This is particularly true in the shooting department. Stevenson's eFG% on jumpers in years prior to coming to DC aren't pretty (39.9% in 05/06, 41.5% in 04/05, 39.6 percent in 03/04 and 37.6 percent in 02/03). It's possible Stevenson's shot has just improved, and to his credit, his eFG% on jumpers in 07/08 with Arenas sidelined jumped to 48.1%, but the fact remains that Stevenson came to DC as a poor jump-shooter and became passable because of Arenas and Eddie Jordan's offense. Similarly, three of his four highest assist percentages came in his three years in DC. Arenas and the Princeton offense have a lot to do with that.
Ultimately, Stevenson fits okay, but not particularly great.
Nick Young: Stevenson does fit better than Young, however. Young was below average in each of the three necessary categories last season. He passed poorly (51st), shot poorly (45th) and has a poor two-year APM (-3.97, though it should be noted that Young actually improved the defense by 6.49 points/100 possessions last season. Go figure). He also doesn't really spot up much (only 38 percent of his hoops were assisted this year, good for 61st). This shouldn't be all that surprising for most of you, as Nick's game doesn't seem to translate well to playing alongside Arenas.
There may be some hope for Young, though, and it comes later in this post. Otherwise, Nick's probably best as a sixth man, not a starter.
Dominic McGuire: McGuire certainly has the game to play next to Arenas, but the numbers don't show it. Despite improvements on his shot, he still posted the third-worst eFG% on jumpers of the 67 players surveyed. He also had a below-average assist percentage and has a dreadful two-year APM (-8.07, though that includes his awful first year). He seems like a better defender than the numbers credit him for being, and his jumper has improved from where it once was, but McGuire certainly doesn't look like a long-term fit because he can't stretch the floor and struggles guarding quicker shooting guards.
Larry Hughes in 2005: Long seen as the gold standard of the right SG next to Arenas, Hughes did two things well: pass and defend. His assist percentage in 04/05 was 21.9, well above average, and the Wizards were 3.3 points better defensively with Hughes on the court. Unfortunately, Hughes couldn't shoot at all, dropping just 37.8 percent (eFG%) of his perimeter shots. That's barely better than DeShawn's percentage this year. The perfect SG would have many of Hughes' characteristics, though. Hughes could handle and pass well enough to allow Arenas to purely focus on scoring, and he at least defended well enough in 2005 to limit Arenas' defensive responsibilities. The guy we'd want is a Hughes-like player who shot a little better and used a few less possessions (a 26.6% usage rate is too high).
Ultimately, the Wizards lack the proper fits for Arenas. That means shooting guard is a position that is necessary to upgrade, or at least to find a better fit next to Arenas.
Around the league
Using our three key criteria, I looked at every shooting guard in the league and tried to find the ones that were above average in as many of the categories as possible last season. The results showed how tricky it is to find the right fit next to Arenas. Only four players were above-average in all three categories, and only 15 others were even above-average in two of the three.
(Italics indicates the category in which they were below average).
| Rank | Player | eFG% on Js | AST% | Defense |
| 1 | J.R. Smith | 53 | 17.3 | +3.11 APM, +3.25 def on/off |
| 2 | Kirk Hinrich | 51.7 | 22.7 | +1.1 APM, +6.38 def on/off |
| 3 | Delonte West | 50.3 | 16.6 | +0.31 APM, +6.91 def on/off |
| 4 | Anthony Parker | 46.9 | 15.7 | +1.61 APM, 1.36 def on/off |
| 5 | Rip Hamilton | 44.8 |
23.9 |
+0.27 APM, +0.63 def on/off |
| 6 | Dwayne Wade |
44.2 | 40.3 | +11.17 APM, +2.72 def on/off |
| 7 | Kyle Weaver |
48.1 | 13.1 | +2.07 APM, +2.84 def on/off |
| 8 | Ray Allen | 56 | 12.6 | +5.36 APM, +1.08 def on/off |
| 9 | Shane Battier | 52.9 | 10 |
+4.24 APM, +2.05 def on/off |
| 10 | Rudy Fernandez | 52 | 6.2 | +6.83 APM, +2.44 def on/off |
| 11 | Jason Terry | 51.9 | 17.6 | +3.46 APM, -1.15 def on/off |
| 12 | Vince Carter | 47.2 | 23.7 | +4.11 APM, -6.11 def on/off |
| 13 | OJ Mayo | 49.5 | 15.5 | +1.21 APM, -10.54 def on/off |
| 14 | Mike Miller | 52.3 | 21.6 | -0.14 APM, -2.5 def on/off |
| 15 | Jarrett Jack | 48.4 | 18.6 | -0.94 APM, -0.55 def on/off |
| 16 | Leandro Barbosa | 47.9 | 14.9 | -3.04 APM, -0.59 def on/off |
| 17 | Keyon Dooling | 49.2 | 21.3 | -3.32 APM, -3.59 def on/off |
| 18 | Fred Jones | 48 | 19.1 | -3.59 APM, -3.24 def on/off |
| 19 | Ben Gordon | 51.7 | 15.9 | -4.95 APM, -4.4 def on/off |
Going deeper
The table shows four players who fit all three categories (Smith, Hinrich, West and Parker, in that order of best to worst fit), two who fit all but the eFG% designation (Hamilton and Wade, both of whom are there because they don't shoot many threes), four who fit all but the assist percentage (Weaver, Rook's fave from last summer, Allen, Battier and Fernandez), three with above-average two-year APMs but negative defensive on/off numbers from this past year only (Terry, Carter and Mayo) and six with negative APMs coupled with negative on/off numbers (Miller, Jack, Barbosa, Dooling, Jones and Gordon).
First, the four perfect fits.
Delonte West is my personal favorite here. His assist percentage this year was way lower than in past years because of the presence of Mo Williams, so he's fully capable of initiating offense for others. His turnover rate as a primary ball-handler in the past was pretty high, but as a secondary ball-handler this year, it dropped to just 12 percent. He's an excellent catch-and-shoot player and a really good defender against shooting guards as well. Alas, he's probably not going anywhere.
Kirk Hinrich looks very good here too, confirming those who have argued here that he is a good fit. One concern here is that Hinrich's role this year was very different than in the past. He was a misfit next to Derrick Rose, though part of that is because Rose does not score off the pass like Arenas does. Like West, Hinrich is fully capable of being more of a passer than his assist percentage indicates, as it took a major drop this year due to the presence of Rose. Hinrich also is a much better perimeter shooter than advertised, rising back above 50 percent after dropping all the way to 45.1 percent in 07/08. He defends shooting guards decently, though I'd say his defense is a bit overrated. My concern is that he isn't all that adept spotting up (only 54% of his shots were assisted, below the 58% average). Otherwise, though, he looks pretty good, and considering how much Chicago seems to be giving him away, the Wizards should be doing more to try to get him, bad contract and all (though don't surrender too many assets).
It's pretty odd to me to find J.R. Smith atop this list. Two numbers jump out at me as surprising. First, I was surprised to see J.R. Smith's defensive numbers seem so strong, particularly when the only reason he comes off the bench is because of his supposed poor defense compared to Dahntay Jones. I think this is a case where the defensive numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. He's a capable defender, as he showed in the LA series guarding Kobe Bryant, but he's not as good as the numbers indicate. The other surprise is his unbelievably high percentage of jumpers made when you consider his bad shot selection. Even more shocking to me is that Smith was even better (57.1% eFG%) in 07/08. Combine that with his underrated playmaking and Smith goes atop the list. I worry, though, about Smith's high usage rate (24.2%), as it shows he may not be able to fade into the background enough. Then again, he faded alright with Chauncey Billups okay, so maybe it would work. I do think this is a case where the numbers prop up Smith higher than he deserves. Nevertheless, Smith's game is very similar to Nick Young's, so there's hope that Young can change his game slightly and still fit in okay next to Arenas.
Anthony Parker is slightly above-average in every category, and he was actually also the only player to be slightly above-average in % assisted AND % of shots as jumpers as well. But he's old and barely creeps above the average in all the categories. He doesn't really stand out anywhere, which is a concern of mine. If all things were equal, I'd sign him this offseason, but we don't have the money.
As for the others, we can rule out Wade, Battier and Mayo because they aren't coming. Gordon is out for his pitiful defense, while Jones and Dooling don't do much for me. We talked about Terry already in this thread, and you know what you get from Allen and Battier. They aren't worth discussing.
Of the rest, the guys I like most are Miller, Carter, Jack, Hamilton and Fernandez. Mike Miller is an absolutely perfect fit offensively. He shoots extremely well and is a great passer for his position. He was kind of a misfit in Minnesota working the inside-out style, but in a more perimeter-oriented attack like ours, I think he'd fit better. He shoots better off penetration than on kickouts from post players. The one major concern is his defense, which is far worse than the numbers indicate. Fernandez's lack of passing skills hurt him, and I don't think his defense is quite as good as the numbers indicate, but he also comes pretty cheaply and can definitely shoot the ball. Jack would be a good guy to get to replace Crittenton as a backup PG that could also play a bit with Arenas. His perimeter shooting surprised me a bit -- I expected to see him much lower -- and he's a better defender than the numbers indicate. Carter also fits really well offensively, but he doesn't come cheaply and he's not a great defensive player. As for Hamilton, I think the eFG% drop is deceiving, since he is an excellent mid-range shooter, but I also worry about his price and age. Still, I'd be happy with all four of those guys.
Subjectively, here's how I'd revise the group. I'm going to take out Wade and Mayo because they are completely unattainable.
- West
- Hinrich
- Miller
- Battier
- Smith
- Fernandez
- Carter
- Parker
- Hamilton
- Jack
- Allen
- Weaver
- Terry
- Barbosa
- Dooling
- Jones
- Gordon
Remember, that's in order of best fit to worst fit, not best player to worst player.
Who's not here?
Manu Ginobili: Ginobili was way above-average in assist percentage (9th) and slightly below-average in shooting (42nd). Surprisingly, he had a pretty major negative defensive on/off differential (-3.27). Subjectively, he's okay, but too old and frail. I love his game, and I would have been all over a Manu trade a year ago, but I worry about him breaking down now. I also don't see him being the defender we need.
Josh Howard: I've said before that Howard fit perfectly defensively, but not offensively. His defensive numbers (+5.28 APM, +3.04 on/off defensively) are outstanding, and I actually think he's even better than that on defense. His offensive numbers, however, indicate a poor fit. He doesn't pass at all (54th among surveyed in AST%), doesn't shoot well because he isn't a great three-point shooter (51st in eFG%) and doesn't spot up much. He also uses a ton of possessions (career 23.1 usage rate). It all points to a player that is either getting touches in isolation to score or is completely uninvolved offensively. That's a bit of a concern to me. The defense, however, is so enticing that it may be worth sacrificing a poor offensive fit.
Joe Johnson: My personal favorite before this exercise, he ends up showing below-average in perimeter shooting (44th) and defense (-5.06 defensive on/off). The real problem with Johnson is that he controls the ball so much -- 26.6% usage rate combined with getting assisted on only 39 percent of his hoops this year. A lot of that has to do with how the Hawks drastically overuse him, and I do hold out hope that he becomes more like the player he was in Phoenix (secondary, able to fade in the background, better defender) if he's traded here. However, it's now been four years in Atlanta, so those high-usage habits won't go away easily.
Jason Richardson: Poor passing, poor defense. That'll do it.
Michael Redd: Redd actually fared really badly according to the numbers. He was below-average in shooting, his supposed biggest strength (40th, just below-average), though that may be because he was hurt. He's a below-average passer as well (35th at 13.2 AST%) and we all know about his defensive problems. Add that in to his high cost and that's a stay-away.
Raja Bell: Bell only drops here because his two-year APM is -0.68. Otherwise, he shoots well and plays good defense, though he doesn't pass.
Jamal Crawford: Crawford's below-average in shooting (44.6 percent, good for 49th) and defense. He does pass well, which is a plus, but he also won't be able to guard SGs and shoots too much. Pass.
(Anyone else you want me to add, I'll let you know in the comments).
What about the rookies
Stephen Curry, Tyreke Evans, James Harden. How do all three fit?
Evans and Curry seem pretty easy to peg. Both are above-average passers, with Curry having the major leg up there because he also doesn't turn it over much. Evans can't shoot, but has tons of defensive potential. Curry is an unbelievable shooter, but a Curry/Arenas backcourt would really struggle defensively. Of the two, I prefer Curry, but both work better than what we have.
Harden's the interesting one. We've head so much about how he fits in well with Arenas, but does he really? I don't have a very good read on his defense, so others will have to fill me in on that. He's a good enough passer (29.2% assist percentage) to pair with Arenas, and it's clear he did a pretty good job creating for others at Arizona State, if not always for himself. It's the shooting that concerns me. Here's a snipped from Draft Express' situational statistics article.
Harden's biggest shortcoming ended up being in the perimeter shooting department. He was terrific on the very few catch and shoot opportunities he received with his feet set (2.4 Pos/G), but really struggled when being contested (.85 PPP) or shooting off the dribble (.73 PPP). In fact, the 27% he shot from the field off the dribble is the lowest of any of the nineteen players in our sample.
His three-point percentage this year was 35.6%; not terrible, but not elite either. It's certainly possible he hasn't had a chance to show his catch-and-shoot ability because of the role he played at Arizona State, but it's clear Harden will need to develop as a shooter to fit in well offensively with Gilbert. Combine that with his mixed signals on defense and I'm not sure Harden fits as well as it seems. He fits better than anyone on the roster, though.
Summing it all up
The bad news is that nobody on the Wizards roster is a great match for Gilbert Arenas. The good news is that many of the guys that are (Hinrich, Miller, Carter, Hamilton, maybe Fernandez and Jack) are out there on the trade market. All three top shooting guards in the draft also fit better than anyone on the roster.
Finding the right fit next to Arenas is essential for Arenas and the team. It won't bring the Wizards a title, but it'll get them closer. Sacrificing assets to do so is imperitive, as long as too many assets aren't sacrificed.
I'd rather overpay to find the perfect fit than give up less to get a less-than-ideal guy. There are still enough assets left over to fix our other holes.
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Comments
Portland is interested in Curry no?
Is there any way you could switch picks for Rudy Fernandez and include some fillers to make the salaries match? Maybe you could even throw in Mike James / Etan Thomas to where Portland ends up taking some cap and we shed some.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk
I'm for that
Although crafting a trade with Portland is complicated because they don’t have too many high-salary guys.
Something like #5/James for Fernandez/#24/Martell Webster. They’d probably pass.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
How much value does our 32 pick have?
Would switching second round picks add any value to our side?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk
Doubt it
Portland looks like they’re going to sell the 24th pick anyway.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Wow Mike
Very detailed analysis…
A couple of things surprised me.
Vince Carter’s adjusted +/- was one. I was always under the impression that he was a pretty good defender for a big SG. At one point, I was an advocate for a Carter trade…. but a re-evaluation of his salary situation shows he would cost too much.
Kyle Weaver’s Assist . He was actually projected as a possible big (6’6") Point Guard coming out of Washington State. He was selected by the Charlotte Bobcats in the 2nd round (38th overall) and traded to the Thunder before the season started. I was hoping he would fall to the Wizards at 47, but as we all know, we drafted and then sold Bill Walker to the Celtics. In college he averaged almost 6 assists (per 40, pace adjusted); so I’m surprised at his low assist rate in the NBA. I’m also surprised by his surprisingly better than average eFG. The knock on him out of College was that he was a poor shooter.
What I am NOT surprised about, is that of all the available SG’s, Kirk Hinrich is the best fit, using your criteria.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Just a follow on - about Hinrich
Lots of folks here think the Wizards have to make a huge deal this Summer to have any chance to contend in the East; that without a trade for a Bosh or Stoudemire – they can’t get there.
I disagree – and a trade for Hinrich would make the perfect point. No, Hinrich is not an All-Star. He’s not an elite player. But, sometimes by adding a specific piece to an existing lineup, the sum becomes better than the parts. Hinrich brings some specific skills that the Wizards lack (3-point shooting, perimeter defense), but he also brings some intangibles. He’s a gritty competitor with an intense attitude. He’s been the team captain in Chicago for the past 5 years. He’s tough. He’s smart. And because he’s not physically gifted, he out-thinks and out-works other guys. And Mike, you’re absolutely right: his defensive prowess is over-rated…. but his defensive intensity and effort are not. That kind of intensity, intelligence, and work ethic can’t help but rub off on other players.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Agree about Hinrich, except the points about him being not physically gifted (I think he’s an above average athlete in the NBA) and overrated as a defender.
The thing I wonder about is whether a trade for Hinrich is the type of deal Ernie would do. Many would say that Ernie would be giving up too much to trade the #5 for Hinrich, but if he’s a perfect fit, it’s not too much.
Based on this analysis, though, come next Thursday, I’ll be quite happy if the Wizards walk away with Hinrich, Harden, Curry or Evans. Which means the Wiz will get Thabeet.
Very in depth
analysis. Kudos. From everything you say, it seems to me like Arenas’ best backcourt mate would be Scottie Pippen. Short of that, I don’t see an ideal fit out there. Maybe Lebron? He would be great with Arenas, because I think Arenas is more of a cold blooded scorer than Lebron.
In all seriousness though, I think we have to hope to get lucky in the draft for his mate, whether it be 1st round or 2nd. Maybe Vasquez will improve his ‘D’ and shooting enough for us to draft him next year. I would really like to see us with a big SG next to Arenas, who can handle the point some. My fear with either Hinrich, West, or even Gordon is that we would be posted up on all the time.
That was a fun and informative read
The only thing I wonder about is whether the ideal Arenas backcourt partner has to be a very good defender. During the Eddie Jordan years, Arenas, Butler and Jamison were excused from the drudgery of defense. “Don’t worry about covering the guy, Gil — Larry/DeShawn will check him for you.” “That guy is too much work for you, Antawn? Don’t worry, Brendan/Jared will guard him.” “LeBron’s a tough cover, isn’t he Caron? Don’t sweat it, that’s why Dominic/DeShawn is here.”
I wonder what would happen if the Wizards drafted Curry and Flip said to Gil, “When Stephon is in the game, I’m going to need you to check the other team’s best guard.” Perhaps Gilbert would rise to the challenge.
I really wonder whether Gilbert, Caron and Jamison can rise to the challenge, because I think they just haven’t been asked to do so in recent years.
AP
Parker sticks out as the lone FA on the list. I don’t see them spending on Parker as long as DeShawn’s contract is on the books though. DS is who he is, good here but in broader terms he isn’t much more than what you could bring off the street.
I wonder how these rankings would look for draftable players. NBA combine is on NBA TV right now and I keep thinking about how good Ellington would look spotting up.
I’ve always liked Delonte West, clearly he should be the talent coming back if we decided to go through with the Big Ben/Jamison ‘sale’.
tell ernie to get hinrich
we are only giving up etan and the 5th pick and getting back a good player and their 1st round pick. maybe this video will convince him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUD9p9awoog it shows some nice passes from hinrich, spot up shooting, some penetration…. but its also a a youtube highlight video and almost all players in the nba have one.
I think that's a good trade for both parties
Etan Thomas + 5th pick FOR Kirk Hinrich + 16th pick
With the 16th pick, the Wizards can still get a good player (Ty Lawson, Earl Clark, Tyler Hansbrough, or maybe DeJuan Blair will fall that far)
And that would still leave some assets for another trade (Mike James’ expiring contract, Blatche, Young, Pecherov, etc…)
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
hinrichs contract runs till the end of 2011/12 season which could have an effect on the resigning of brendan later on. but his contract is also a decending one going from 9.5 mil this coming season to 8 mil in his last which is pretty cool. what other players have contracts like that?
And Ben Wallace. (blech)
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Agreed.
If the Bulls want a higher pick, possibly someone to replace Gordon leaving, AND get out of Hinrich’s contract, they easily pull the trigger on that.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
The only thing I'm worried about
is that Detroit has targeted Gordon… If the Bulls lose Gordon, would they consider keeping Hinrich?
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
they would, though I'm not sure why
Bulls could also play Salmons at the 2.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 18, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Hinrich is a terrific fit
With the additional fillip that we still get Chicago’s 18th pick which means that we get someone like BJ Mullens, Tyler Hansborough, Chase Budinger, DeJuan Blair or Darren Collison.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Jun 17, 2009 10:02 PM EDT reply actions
Bulls/Hinrich Fan here
I almost started cracking up on your criteria because you described Kirk Hinrich Perfectly. You guys should visit blogabull and post a few questions for more objective views but i think hinrich would be the ideal backcourt mate for your wizards. His defense is solid, although he has trouble (like the rest of the league) keeping up with some of the smaller quicker guards or the stronger taller guards. In the playoffs he had his turn defending Rondo Allen AND PIERCE and he did a stellar job on all three. Hinrich is a decent 3 point shooter, and he would have better percentages playing with better offensive players especially a guy like arenas (hinrichs best shooting year was also the same year ben gordon and luol deng had thier best shooting years. In pressure hinrich is unreliable, but if he is left unchecked he will make you pay), in terms of ball handling, hinrich is a smart dribble and flip will love having him since he is a coach’s son. He will learn plays quickly and he can execute flawlessly, just what you want in your floor general. He knows where he is supposed to be and where his team mates are supposed to be. He has the handles to split defenders although isnt a great finisher in traffic at all, he is able to create his shot off the dribble on one on one situations. Despite his offensive abilities he is not a ball hog, and will do whatever his team needs him to.
As far as trying to get him, your number 5 pick will be more than enough, the bulls may also hand you thier late first round pick too. Wondering why the bulls are doing a fire sale on hinrich if he is all the things i say he is? Its because hinrich is too good (and expensive) to keep on the bench but is not better than rose at pg or gordon at sg. Unless the bulls are able to get chris bosh or amare, hinrich will also not be a good enough scorer to play alongside rose.
Its funny, my lil brother has always been a huge fan of gilbert arenas and the wizards, now its possible my favorite player in the nba may be on that team. Although i gotta say i hate your gold away jerseys…yuck!
At anyrate i apologize for my long post best of luck this off season.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Thanks for the great information
The Wizards would likely be willing to throw in a few gold jerseys to seal the deal.
you've convinced me
I’ve never cared about Hinrich one way or the other, but if bringing him in allows us to dump the gold jersey’s, I say pull the trigger NOW. And we’ll throw in Deshawn if you’ll trade us names.You get one ET (that would be Etan), then we can take the Bulls name and put our own et in, between the l and s.
BRILLIANT
Sorry guys. I’ve been up all night. It’s either bed time or beer time.
Don't worry about the gold jerseys
They are gone for good.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Jun 18, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Fine analysis...
Gives quantitative support to those of us who argued strongly for people like Hinrich and Miller… We shall see…
Firstly, outstanding post
But we all know Arenas’ ideal backcourt mate is himself.
Being Who You Thought We Were Since 2005!
Actually
Except for defense – and the whole high usage thing (only one ball, after all) – he’s probably partially, almost, but not-quite correct…
But it does bring up a point. Your analysis essentially says that Arenas shouldn’t play with a pure PG or with a pure SG…. but is most likely best with another combo-guard.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Hinrich
Trade our 5th pick, Darius Songalia, and Mike James to the Bulls for Kirk Hinrich, Anthony Roberson (filler to match contracts) and their 16th pick in the Draft. If they reject that offer then you settle for their 26th pick in round 1. Roberson has a team option on his contract so you cut him.
Hope that Eric Maynor falls to #26 (the best pure point in the draft) and take him to back up Gil. Maybe then sell the #32 pick for cash considerations. Then you have a veteran starting 5 and young backups.
Arenas- Hinrich- Butler- Jamison- Haywood
Maynor- Young- Stevenson- Blatche- McGee
and Also Dom Mcguire. Maybe pick up a vet forward with the cash from the draft pick. That team can contend
Does Etan stay around as a 3rd big?
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
Hm...
Are you opposed to sliding Butler to the SG slot and finding an SF type player?
Dunno how untouchable these players are but that expands your options to players like:
Travis Outlaw
Marvin Williams
Tayshaun Prince
Hedo Turkoglu
in terms of other “combo guard” type players:
John Salmons
Flip Murray
Morris Peterson
Marquis Daniels
Stephen Jackson
Among others I could think of.
Poor Man's GM @ jacemannba.blogspot.com
I didn't run too many small forwards through the test
I guess your opinion of moving Caron to the SG position depends on how he stacks up relative to other twos. He certainly has the passing down (17th out of 67 in AST% this year), but he’s a really bad shooter if you go by eFG% because he is mostly a mid-range shooter (he was 56th out of 67 people surveyed in eFG% on jumpers). He’s also pretty bad on defense, but depending on who you bring in to play small forward, that might not be that big of a problem. I don’t really like Outlaw or Turkoglu for the Wiz. Prince and Williams are better, Williams because he can spot-up shoot and Prince because of his defense, but the former doesn’t handle well enough and the latter might be too old.
As far as your other combo guards, none of them showed particularly well in this analysis.
Salmons (only Chicago stats): 17th in shooting (50% eFG%), 52nd in passing (8.8 AST%), well below-average in both APM and defensive on/off (-7.05, -3.98). Add in his really high usage and he would just steal shots from the Big 3. Bad fit.
Murray: 41st in shooting, 31st in passing (really bad for more of a PG), but he was good in APM/def on/off (+1.9, +5.5). Terrible spot-up guy though (only 41 percent of his scores were assisted) and a high-usage guy to boot.
Peterson: He didn’t really play enough minutes this year, but I fail to see how he can pass decently.
Daniels: Terrible shooter (64th of 67 in eFG% on jumpers), very mediocre passer (45th). He does seem like a good defender (+1.36, +2.45), but he’s such a dreadful fit on offense that I really don’t see things working. Not a shooter or a passer.
Jackson: I thought Jackson would be a good fit subjectively too, but man does he look bad in the analysis. He passes well (3rd in assist percentage), but his AST% this year was over nine points higher than his career average. Golden State didn’t have anyone who could pass like a point guard, so I think he picked up assists he’d never get anywhere else. He was a pretty bad shooter (55th), probably because he has terrible shot selection (high usage, etc). His defense is also pretty overrated. Like Salmons, I think SJax would steal too many shots from the more efficient guys.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Caron Shooting
I would be less concerned about Caron being a ‘bad’ shooter out of the two spot if we had Prince at the 3 and Jamison at the 4.
Overall, with spots 1-4 being threats from deep, you wouldn’t necessarily need to pigeonhole a certain type of shooter at the SG spot.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
Great write up!
(Bulls fan perspective). Like the other poster above, I agree Kirk would be an excellent fit in your backcourt with Gilbert. If Harden isn’t available, I don’t know if this makes sense for them to do this deal. Of course every fanbase, overvalues their players and picks.
-The 5th pick + Etan for Kirk = ADV BULLS
- 5th pick + Etan for Kirk + 16 = ADV WIZ
I cannot see either team doing just those one of those deals because they seem a little lopsided. Plus, I believe that the Bull’s already have a jersey ready for Hansbrough at 16. The Bull’s 26 pick or other salary would probably have to be involved. Either way, the trade will not go down until the Wizard are on the clock. It should be exciting.
What About
5th Pick + Etan + 32nd Pick for Kirk + 16th Pick? Tyler might still be available at 26, and then you could grab another decent prospect 6 spots later. You would essentially be getting 3 first round draft picks. It would make the trade less lopsided. I would definitely still do it.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Kirk has been my #1 target for a while
I thought the Bulls were trying to shed him and make a run at a big FA next year. That may work to our advantage.
I know he's not available,
but did you look at Roger Mason? He would seem to fit at least shooting and defense.
Roger was on the list
His rankings from last year:
Shooting: 3rd (53.3 eFG% on jumpers) – GOOD
Passing: 53rd (11.1 AST%) – Mediocre. That’s playing a lot of point guard too. For comparison’s sake, his assist percentage in 07/08 was better (13.2%), but not close to average. His career AST% is 12.1.
Defense: Roger’s two-year APM is actually really bad (-3.06) and his defensive on/off was negative last year (-1.13). Those numbers surprised me. In 07/08, his on/off was about neutral (+0.55).
He’d probably fit in pretty well, but as a reserve. I don’t really like that, for a shooting guard, he’s a below-average passer. Anecdotally, he shot too many jumpers in 07/08 off the dribble, but that didn’t show as much in his usage rate.
He’d probably fit in pretty well, to be honest. Somewhere between 20-30 as far as fit, just behind the guys on that list.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I have McGrady in there as fitting two of the criteria, but I threw his data out mostly because of the small sample size
Foye’s too much like Gilbert. He passes okay, but doesn’t spot up well and isn’t a good enough defender. Terrible fit.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
While I wouldn't rely on him
He is a $23 million expiring contract and ideally can shoot, handle, pass and sometimes defend. Would you not deal James, Etan, Pech, + Stevenson for him? Deshawn is the only somewhat useful player we give up and he is a question mark himself with the back injury. I’m not saying that’s realistic at all, but I was just curious about his stats when healthy
randy foye has not lived up to expectations.
we don’t need a player like that. mchale probably made the deal for him trading away brandon roy. thats why he’s gone from the wolves
free agents
we could also sign 1 or 2 (depending on roster spots available) free agents to help us out.
big men – zaza , chris anderson, nesterovic, brian skinner, al harrington,wilcox, drew gooden
the most available of these guys seem to be nesterovic, skinner based on money. just a guess. all are unrestricted
Guards- carney, wafer, brandon bass, marbury, ronald murray
theses are just some ideas to strengthen our bench. there are other free agents available but these seem the cheapest to me. just want to know what everyone else thinks.
We probably won't have the money to be a free agency player
We only have the MLE and we probably won’t want to add to our tax bill for the guys you listed. Maybe one of them for the LLE.
By the way, Brandon Bass isn’t a guard.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Birdman cometh?
I’d love to get Chris Anderson. I never liked him before, after his 22 failed dunks in the dunk contest. But he really impressed me with his energy and defense int he playoffs. We would have to trade some baggage first, but I’d love to have him. Doubt it will come to pass though.
Outstanding analysis
I didn’t realize that Hinrich would be such a good fit. It’s a shame that the Wiz don’t have the money to give to Anthony Parker, who could probably be signed pretty cheaply.
SGs
This has definitely helped sell me on the idea of Hinrich. It would be interesting to see how Flip would run the offense through Arenas and Hinrich. I can’t recall seeing Hinrich try to come off screens looking to shoot all that much, but if he could be effective in that role it would make Arenas that much tougher to stop out front and would open things up even more for AJ and CB. (not to mention the BH putback opportunities). No matter what, if Agent Zero is able to be effective getting to the rim again, this should be a crazy efficient offensive team.
The comments on Harden are interesting. I was just doing some catchup reading at HoopsAnalyst and came across this:
“Washington: James Harden, SG Arizona State: As a SG who can pass, he’ll be a good fit with Arenas. Like the 3 teams drafting before them the Wizards would probably love a big guy and may force the issue by taking Thabeet or Hill. That would be a mistake. Best to take a better player who will help and look for inside help somewhere else.”
And a nice analysis of the SG crop that similarly makes Harden seem like an interesting possibility, at least on offense:
According to DraftExpress profile
Hinrich gets about 1/2 his Offense from the Pick-and-Roll game.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kirk-Hinrich-2836/
But the thing I’m most excited about (if the Wizards pull the trigger, and obtain Hinrich) is getting a real perimeter defender at the Guard position. Since Hughes left, the Wizards have not had a Guard that can defend. (Stevenson is the closest, but his defense has gone south for some reason).
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I'm Hoping
Stevenson is the closest, but his defense has gone south for some reason
I’m hoping this was due more to his back problems than an actual deterioration of his abilities. Even if he comes back this season better than ever, however, I still think we should pursue an upgrade like Hinrich.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
I don't
think Stevenson’s defense was ever that great.
(Stevenson is the closest, but his defense has gone south for some reason)
I think HE called HIMSELF a defensive specialist when he got here, and it just caught on. As far as on the court goes, I don’t ever recall him shutting anyone down. What he’ll always be famous for is pulling the dragon’s tail when he called out Lebron. He became a national joke after that. I would love to see him elsewhere next year.
Point is
Stevenson asked to play the other team’s best player. He was consistently matched against guys like LeBron, Wade, Kobe, etc…
He might not have been a great defender…. but he was, unfortunately, the best perimeter defender the Wizards had.
And CJHutch – you really need to start hitting the reply button…. it’s difficult to know where/who/which post you are responding to.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
By the way
If you forget to hit reply – simply delete your post and try again.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I don’t ever recall him shutting anyone down
I think he was a very good and under-rated defender, matching up against PGs, SGs, and SFs when necessary. Not elite, but just under.
Stupid trash talking, though.
I'll give you
that he was OUR best perimeter defender. Not saying much. I also think that was a combination of Gilbert and Caron not really wanting to concentrate on that side of the ball, and Stevenson needing an actual purpose. But I’ve heard him called a lock-down defender before, which I consider a joke. Much like Jared Jeffries before him. Everyone knows that defense is more about hard work, and knowing your opponent than anything else (Joe Dumars, Bruce Bowen). It also takes some craftiness. The long body and athleticism is the difference between a good and great defender(Scottie Pippen). It also helps to have a little bit of nastiness in you, not wanting someone to get the best of you (Ron Artest).
I just don’t see Deshawn Stevenson as a superb defender. Someone calling them self a defensive specialist doesn’t make them one. Or, better put, just because someone “specializes” in something, doesn’t necessarily make them good at it.
I think this is right
DeShawn’s alright, but he’s not an ace defender by any means.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I Should Point Out
That analysts were talking about DeShawn’s good defense before he ever played for the Wizards. It was why Ernie went out and got him. He certainly wasn’t picked up for his offense. I also think Rook’s observation that he has had to guard the other team’s best player is very appropriate. While he certainly did not “lock down” those guys (few players actually can), I would say from observation that he was definitely above average and better than anybody else we had.
Also, your comments about DeShawn’s reaction to LeBron lead me to believe that you are uninformed about what went down. Let me ask you a question. If someone, and I mean anyone, were to insult your manhood and talk smack about one of your girlfriends, behind your back to a friend of yours, what would you do? Go cry in your pillow? DeShawn did not start the feud with LeBron, LeBron did. I would think that any man with a functional sack would do what DeShawn did, and I respect him for it, celebrity status of LeBron aside.
LeBron has displayed in a number of incidents the past two years that he is a total douche bag. So say what you want about DeShawn. At least he has the courage to say what he thinks to another man’s face. If that makes him “joke”, then so be it. I would do the same in his shoes.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

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