Question: Do Josh Howard or Jason Terry fit with the Wizards?
by Mike Prada on Jun 10, 2009 2:09 PM EDT
in Rumors
Email
PrintI'm going to make this quick, since I'm still working on Part 2 of this post (and if you'll believe it, it's even more complex than Part 1), but with the Dallas Mavericks emerging as a possible trade-up partner, I figured I'd take a minute to pose this discussion topic to the community.
Dallas and DC are pretty good trade partners. The Mavericks are very much where they were in 2004, when they traded Antawn Jamison to the Wizards for the fifth pick in the 2004 draft. They have a veteran core that is good enough to be a good team, but probably won't be able to take the next step. In 2004, they tried to go all-offense and traded for Antoine Walker and Jamison, only to win seven fewer games than in 2003 and flame out in five games early in the playoffs. The trade for Devin Harris was the first step in shifting their mindset to defense-first, as evidenced later by the team's decision to not re-sign Steve Nash.
Fast forward to 2009, and Dallas once again is a team at a crossroads. They were sixth in the West this year with a new coach and largely the same core as 2007/08. They did get to Round 2, but that was because they had a favorable first-round matchup with the banged-up Spurs. When they faced a true Western Conference contender in Denver, they got killed. Now, they have no depth and no youth, both largely because of the ill-fated Jason Kidd trade. Meanwhile, their best player is a free agent in 2010 and is over 30 years old. In short, they're a good team, but they have a limited ceiling and desperately need depth and youth. Trading one of their veterans in a package for the fifth pick can help with both of those weaknesses.
(For more on the Mavs, here's a good old article about why they need to blow things up).
Meanwhile, the 2003/04 Wizards had too many young pieces and needed to consolidate. The 2003/04 season was a disaster largely because of poor health -- Gilbert Arenas missed 27 games, Larry Hughes missed 21 and Jerry Stackhouse missed 56). The development of the young players was inconclusive -- Etan Thomas played well, but Kwame and Brendan Haywood didn't really. They also had some very bad contracts (Jerry Stackhouse, Christian Laettner) that they could have shipped off. There wasn't all that much of a need for a rookie because the team had talent. It just needed to be healthy and better coordinated. (Before you laugh at the idea that the 2003/04 team had talent, there were some that truly believed the Wizards would make noise in 04/05).
Point is, the 2004 Wizards needed a veteran, the 2004 Mavericks wanted to ship off some of their veterans. Now, in 2009, the Wizards are talking about how they need a veteran, while the 2009 Mavericks may be considering a youth movement. Seems like good trade partners, no?
If we're talking veterans for Dallas, we're talking Jason Terry or Josh Howard. One would be the centerpiece of Dallas' package to move up to the fifth pick. Both are wings that would immediately become the starting shooting guard on this team. So, I ask the community, does either player fit with our team as currently constructed? Which would you prefer if you had to choose?
(My snap reaction: Howard fits defensively, but not offensively, while Terry is the opposite. But I want to reserve judgment until I hear from you all and finish Part II of the "perfect backcourt mate" study).
113 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Sense we're on this "more defense" kick
we might as well go for Howard. Besides, we have enough punch with Arenas, Jamison and Butler, right?
Neither enthrall me as the 'piece' we need...
But sometimes beggars can’t be choosers.
I’d rather have Terry … I think he’d cost less in a trade.
Sure Howard would be good defensively, but I’d be concerned about him moving Butler to the two-spot — Caron already has injury issues and him and Gilbert trying to contain the perimeter seems like a disaster … of course, I suppose Howard could guard the opposing two, but still, with Howard’s poor offensive decision making … no thanks.
Plus, Howard is a d-bag, for several reasons, and I just don’t think he has the type of winning/gamer personality that the Wizards need.
Terry would pack a nice scoring punch, most likely off the bench ….. If we get him (and if it means keeping Stevenson, Young, and Crittenton for some reason) I’d expect Flip to place Young behind both Terry and Stevenson in the pecking order, and in turn, I’d expect a TON of bitching about it on Bullets Forever
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
I guess I don't really get this
Plus, Howard is a d-bag, for several reasons, and I just don’t think he has the type of winning/gamer personality that the Wizards need.
Sure, Howard had a pretty terrible offseason last year, but how does this actually affect the Wizards on the court at all? Howard did plenty of winning in Dallas.
That line just sounded like Abe Pollin circa 1999 talking. I’m not saying there’s no merit, but I just don’t get how it relates to Howard the player.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Aside from the off the court troubles/idiocy
I’ve been turned off several times when seeing him play … such as complaining to the ref in a manner that’s detrimental to the team, etc.
He just doesn’t seem like a “good teammate” — I think the guy is capable of playing hard, but then he seems to be the type to fold with the chips are down, or complain when he is not ‘getting his’
That being said, if Dallas wants to give him to us for Mike James, Blatche, and the 5th, then I’ll be supportive and hopeful.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
I also think I'd be okay with Terry taking Young's minutes
Though I do say that now and not while in the moment.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I voted neither
The fifth pick for one or two years of Josh Howard? No thanks. And Terry will turn 32 in September, and his deal expires right before his 35th birthday. He’s a year younger than Jamison, his contract runs just as long, and it’s almost as large. Is there a rule that the Wizards need to trade for a Maverick everytime that guy wins 6th Man of the Year?
Trading for either guy means that the Wizards will have $52 or 53 million tied up in their top four players in 2010/11. It also means paying the luxury tax not only next year but in future years (and thus likely not resigning Haywood after this season) unless the Wizards send matching salaries OTHER than Etan and Mike James back to Dallas in the deal.
but Howard's contract
is exactly what you want. It has flexibility and you aren’t getting locked down long term, unlike Hinrich. Is the 5th pick in the draft really going to help the Wizards go deep in the playoffs? Deeper than adding Howard or Terry?
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Assets and the Rub
We need what Dallas needs, a defensive, shot blocking PF. They can’t get one for Josh Howard, except through the draft. We, I don’t think, want the one thats there in the draft. So can we add a 3rd team that gets Terry/Howard and sends us a PF? If it was that easy wouldn’t Dallas do the same?
Terry has 3 years and 30Mil remaining on his deal. Howard can come off the books after this coming season (he has a Team Option for 11M) Caron is up soon after so I don’t see us re-signing Howard. So we’d probably move him again closer to the deadline.
One thing that hasn’t been factored into these conversations is the chance that Gilbert re-injures himself. Should that happen the way we’re currently set up we’d be in for an expensive disaster. So Terry could be seen as the potential replacement in that scenario, or the excellent 6th man that we know him as should Gilbert play.
and
any deal should include Stackhouse and the savings he brings because his 7Mil contract includes only 2M in guaranteed money.
Stack, Terry and 22 for Pech, Stevenson, Blatche and Mike James and #5 works.
I didn't see this before I made my offer below
I think we’re thinking the same way.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Yah
Just based on talent and the worth of the pick we deserve more than just Howard. “More” in this case means taking salary and opening roster spots for cheaper labor. Pesh and DS should be included. I waiver on including Blatche to Dallas only because I envision him as the center piece of a second deal to bring back a post presence. Insert Blatche/salary to GS for Azubuike and Turiaf deal…
I just don't think Dallas does this deal unless Blatche is included
They’d then be trading their third-best player and one of the best contracts in basketball for the fifth pick in a weak draft and filler. They’ve got no use for Nick Young, so to sweeten things for them, I’d think they’d have to include Blatche.
Maybe we could give them a 2010 #1 instead (top-10 protected), I dunno. You still need to find a way to match Blatche’s salary.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Here's another option
Etan, Stevenson, Critt, Pech and Stack for Howard/Stack/#22.
Then, offer the Warriors #22, Blatche and James for Turiaf, Azubuike and CJ Watson.
Finally, you could finish things off by offering Young and #32 to someone like Oklahoma City for Collison.
Arenas/Watson
Howard/Azubuike
Butler/McGuire/Azubuike
Jamison/Turiaf
Haywood/Collison/McGee
Is that what you had in mind?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Wait, scratch the last option
That wouldn’t work.
Umm…you could keep Young and draft a PG with the 32nd.
Arenas/Watson/PG
Howard/Young/Azubuike
Butler/Azubuike/McGuire
Jamison/Songaila
Haywood/Turiaf/McGee
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I wish it had
Turiaf and Collison would be be the new Malone Bros.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Keep Young
Draft Darren Collison (if he falls that far) or Danny Green
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Chad
Interesting that Chad Ford mentioned Houston as a team looking to move up to #5. That opens up a can of worms. They have a lot to offer in a variety of ways.
Everyone thinks of McGrady and his huge contract coming off after this season, eh. That deal would have to include AJ, and I could see Houston being interested but we can save that for another post.
I’m more interested in Luis Scola who played well but can’t stretch defenses for Yao. Plus he is in the last year of his contract making 3M. Houston may be willing to part with him for #5 and salary coming back. If not there are more options:
Carl Landry, Chuck Hayes, and Joey Dorsey would all fill needs for the Wiz. Landry has 2 years left at 3M each. Dorsey also has 3 years left and never makes more than 1M in a single year. Admittedly, I have no idea what he spent this year doing though. Hayes seems redundant with McGuire although I don’t think Dom can defend bigger 4’s the way Hayes can.
So
Scola, and a late 1 they purchase for #5 and DS. Include Pesh for one of their trade exceptions and save more while making room for better subs.
Scola is probably the most valuable contract in the league next year
At 3 mil, he does so many great things at the 4 spot. I would love to snag him from Houston, but I doubt they part with him. He is also due a pretty hefty raise after next year, and it would be a pity to get him and not be able to pay him. Landry is also another great contract. Both of those guys are the type of scrappy 4’s who are always willing to do the little things to win.
Dear Diary, JACKPOT!!!!!!!!!!
by Evander holyfield on Jun 10, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Would Daryl Morey
give up Landry? From his interviews, he seems to be a pretty astute GM and I doubt Landry would be one of his chips…
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Houston
is a natural fit as a trade partner given that they have Scola, Landry, Chuck Hayes, as well as F’s who sometimes play the 4 in Battier and Artest (he’ll be back in Houston). Throw in Joey Dorsey too. That deal and subsequent long term contract with Dorsey tells me they are prepping for life without some of these 4’s.
I'm also starting to think that Dallas and GS are the trade partners we need
I’ve seen some different thoughts out there throughout this thread about what the trade should look like with Dallas and my only question about Prada’s proposal is whether the value of the draft pick is included in the salaries calculation because you have Etan (8.4), Deshawn (3.9) and Blatche (3.0) totaling 17.4, but that adds up to 15.3. I looked up Kevin Love’s salary from last year and that was about 3.1. If that number is being taken into account, wouldn’t our outgoing be 18.4? If not taken into account, we would only have 15.3 going out.
So not taking the salary of #5 into account, here are my proposals. If the salary does need to be included, then I’ll make the necessary adjustments for the salaries to work.
First Trade
Dallas gets:
Etan Thomas (8.4)
Mike James (6.5)
Deshawn Stevenson (3.9)
- pick
Approx. Incoming Salaries: 18.8 mil
Washington gets:
Josh Howard (10.9)
Jerry Stackhouse (7.3)
Approx. Incoming Salaries: 18.2 mil
Dallas loses some expiring salary, but now they get compensation for losing Howard. Basically, the deal is Howard for #5 and Stevenson. Deshawn joins a backcourt of Kidd, Terry, and JJ Barea. Antoine Wright plays the 3, Mavs get PF Jordan Hill and uses #22 on the best wing, maybe Sam Young. They still have almost 15 mil come off the books next summer. And they still may use those pieces in July to acquire Shaq. Wiz shed 600-700k with the trade, then shed another 5.3 mil from Stackhouse. We end up with Howard and 6 mil off the books.
Second Trade
GS gets:
Andray Blatche (3.0)
Olesksiy Pecherov (1.5)
Approx. Incoming Salaries: 4.5 mil
Washington gets:
Ronny Turiaf (4.1)
Approx. Incoming Salaries: 4.1 mil
Golden State gets two more athletic big men that Don Nelson loves. In Blatche he gets a 21 year old athlete that’s cheaper than Turiaf to take that spot in the rotation. In Pecherov, he gets a project to try to turn into the second coming of Dirk. Worst case, they don’t re-up him and end up with 1.5 off the books and still have a young big. This also takes off the pressure to draft a big and they can get a PG like Holliday or Jennings. Wiz get a strong post player that can play 4 or 5 and brings more defense at a reasonable rate and he won’t complain about not starting. Now we have a big man rotation of Haywood, Jamison, Songaila, McGee and Turiaf. 4 of the guys are versatile and we have options depending on the matchup.We also save another 400k in salary.
Our roster:
PG: Arenas/Crittendon
SG: Howard/Young
SF: Butler/McGuire
PF: Jamison/Songaila
C: Haywood/McGee/Turiaf
We are down to 11 roster spots and a team salary of approximately 69.5 mil because we shed 6.4 mil through the transactions. We are under the luxury tax and still have a second rounder. The only area I can see that we could use help is our backcourt depth. We could easily pick up a veteran PG or combo guard for cheap to come off the bench. I still like Marbury for a minimum contract. Maybe get a guard in the draft.
I like the idea of including Stackhouse
If Dallas would go for it….
Howard + Stackhouse + 22nd pick FOR Thomas + James + Pecherov + 5th pick
Although the salaries work – it gives the Wizards about $1.5Million less in payroll. PLUS if you release Stackhouse, there’s another $5 Million saved. I don’t know if that gets them under the tax (I doubt it); but it gives the Wizards the flexibility to sign Haywood next off-season.
Howard can play the 2 – so Butler can stay at the 3. Howard is a pretty good perimeter defender (long, quick). He can hit the 3 – and he’s a good FT shooter. He’s also a pretty decent rebounder and passer. In Washington, he wouldn’t have to be the 2nd leading scorer – so the other things he brings (low turn overs, rebounding, passing, 3-point shooting, defense) augment the Wizards weaknesses. A definite upgrade over anyone they could draft at #5
At 29, Howard is around the same age as Butler, and only 2 years older than Arenas… If the Wizards wanted to keep him, he would extend their Championship window… On the other hand, if he doesn’t work out – they could release him and have some cap flexibility (resign Butler, add a MLE Free Agent, whatever….)
I don’t like Terry – he’s essentially Gilbert Arenas lite. Needs the ball to score, and he plays no defense.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
That description of Terry is pretty unfair
How do you explain how a higher percentage of Terry’s scores (56%) were assisted this past year than Howard’s? It’s not just a one-year thing either: he was at 60% in 07/08. His eFG% on jumpers the last two years: 51.9%, 51.5%. Both are way higher than Howard’s.
I agree that defensively an Arenas/Terry backcourt won’t work, but Terry’s a great fit offensively. He doesn’t “need the ball to score” like you say.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I was about to say the same thing
I couldnt have pulled out all of those stats or anything though so I guess I didnt need to.
No
No reason to throw both expiring contracts into the deal when Deshawn can be added. Carlisle has talked openly about needing some attitude, some toughness at the 2. DS gives them exactly that and for less than Dallas has overpaid for in the past.
That way they can let Etan expire or save him for a deadline deal. Both expiring contracts and the top 5 pick for Howard and 5Mil in savings is a horrible deal for the Wiz.
To get both Howard AND Stackhouse
you cannot substitute D-Steve for Etan Thomas’ contract …. nor can you substitute D-Steve for James….
Salaries won’t work…
The reason I like the deal is not just because the Wizards upgrade the SG spot with Howard, but they can also save over $6.7 Million THIS year. Stackhouse’s salary is only partially guaranteed for $2Million, so he can be released and the Wizards would only have to pay $2 Million.
Perhaps if I show the Salaries – you’ll understand better:
Etan Thomas ($ 7.3 Million + 15% Trade kicker = $8.4 Million) + James ($6.4 Million) + Pecherov ($1.4 Million) + 5th pick
(Total Wizard’s outgoing salaries = $16.2 Million)
FOR
Josh Howard ($10.9 Million) + Jerry Stackhouse ($7.0 Million) + 22nd Pick
(Total Wizard’s incoming salaries = $17.9 Million)
So if the Wizards release Stackhouse, they would save $3.3 Million… off THIS year’s Salaries
Now – if you don’t include Mike James, you cannot get Stackhouse (Stevenson’s salary of $3.8 Million is not enough to make the trade work). So the trade would look like this:
Etan Thomas ($ 7.3 Million + 15% Trade kicker = $8.4 Million) + Pecherov ($1.4 Million) + 5th
(Total Wizard’s outgoing salaries = $9.8 Million)
FOR
Josh Howard ($10.9 Million) + 22nd Pick
(Total Wizard’s incoming salaries = $10.9 Million)
Not nearly as attractive since the Wizards would be taking on an EXTRA $1.1 Million in salary instead of saving $3.3 Million…
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
By the way
if you have a trade scenario where the Wizards can obtain Josh Howard AND Jerry Stackhouse – by using ONE expiring contract, DeShawn Stevenson and other assets – by all means post it here… I’d be interested.
Just be sure to post all the players salaries on each side – and make sure that the incoming salaries are not more than 125% plus $100,000 more than the outgoing salaries.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Rook, just look below
Come on, I literally crafted a trade that did so a few lines lower (Etan/Blatche/Stevenson/5 for Howard/Stackhouse). Sub Pech and Critt for Blatche and the trade still works. When you write a comment like this, please check to make sure someone hasn’t already done what you’re asking.
Jheiser understands how the cap works. Please don’t be unnecessarily condescending like this.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
His deal does not work - was just trying to point that out
No reason to throw both expiring contracts into the deal…………………….That way they can let Etan expire or save him for a deadline deal.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I never
Swapping DS for Etan was not the entirety of it. I think you assumed that for some reason even though the conversation happening on this thread was clear on that. As has been pointed out, it aint hard to do what I suggest (avoid using both expiring contracts).
James can be left out
But I think Thomas HAS to be part of the deal if the Wizards want both Howard and Stackhouse….
But like I said below – I’d prefer to lose Thomas, James and Pecherov…. than Thomas, Stevenson and Blatche…
I still think Stevenson and Blatche can have a positive impact on the team this year… Plus, if Blatche is gone, where is the back-up Center? (and please don’t tell me you are going to trust that to JaVale McGee…. because unless he put on 30 pounds of muscle, we’re liable to see Songaila at Center more often than McGee when Blatche is gone)
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
sure they can
but its as likely we can find a FA wing to do what DeShawn does for half of what he makes. Less if we pick the replacement at 32.
“Scrappy” wing defenders who shoot in the mid 30’s from 3 are not hard to find. So save money there and put it toward a legitimate back up center who cares more about rebounds than shots. No secret here that moving Blatche is addition by subtraction in my mind. Even if his replacement is named Rasho.
it also shows the lack of depth in this draft
If Curry is shooting all the way up to number five, because he is that scrappy wing player in question – who in stronger years would be drafted towards the end of the first round.
You make the trade, hope that EG swindles the other team into giving you a lower pick in whatever trade that he makes, and pray that he works some of his Michael Redd magic in the lower 1/2 of the first or second round.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
My official new (pipedream) plan
trade #1
Jamison + 5 for Josh Howard
trade #2
Caron Butler for Mike Miller + 6
draft
6th pick for Jordan Hill
PG – Arenas – Crittenton
SG – Miller – NYoung
SF – Howard – McGuire
PF – Hill – Songalia – Blatche
C – Haywood – McGee
Now if we could only find a way to shoehorn Etan’s contract into one of those deals we would be set
How is that team better than the one we currently have?
Keep Jamison, swap other assets for Howard.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Jamison, Caron, and #5 > Mike Miller, Josh Howard, #6
Dear Diary, JACKPOT!!!!!!!!!!
by Evander holyfield on Jun 10, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
to tell you the truth i thought I was building off your idea of trading Jamison/5 for Howard. Where do I lose you?? Caron for Miller+6?? Does Caron for Miller+6+18 change anything??
swap other assets for Howard.
is there a way we could swing Blatche/James/5 for Howard?? If so more power to it
That's kind of the rumor
is there a way we could swing Blatche/James/5 for Howard?? If so more power to it
Also, where was my idea of trading Jamison/5 for Howard? That’s a crazy-bad trade.
Plus, Caron’s way better than Mike Miller (who isn’t bad himself) and we don’t have the roster space to take multiple pieces back for Howard.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Last word should be "Butler," not "Howard"
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Also, where was my idea of trading Jamison/5 for Howard? That’s a crazy-bad trade.
no that was my fault. I just skimmed the article, saw the words Josh Howard, 5th pick, and automatically assumed Jamison because the salaries matched.
I can never get a gauge for how the rest of the league (and the rest of wiz nation) value Jamison. One minute people are talking about how we should take on Wally Sczerbiak just to get out from under his contract, the next I am being told that packaging him with a mediocre draft pick is too much for a player like Josh Howard.
the official rumor
is an expiring contract and the #5 for Howard. No other sweetner on the Wizards side. We probably need to throw in Pech (as I think Rook pointed out) but the great thing about this trade is that we don’t need to go overboard to get him.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Etan or James plus Pech and #5 for Howard? I’d be in favor or that from a basketball standpoint. I’m not versed in the Howard contract details.
The guys a minor knucklehead, but I think he’s got a lot of Tuff Juice in him too. We could use some of that.
by MR on Jun 10, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Howard's contract
He’s on the books for a little under 11 million next year, then he has a team option for just under 12 million for 2010/11. (Sham). Basically, he makes about the same amount of money as Caron and less than Jamison.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
How is that team better than the one we currently have?
I think I have lost most of you and your arguments have proved to me that alot of work would need to be done but at least hear me out on why I think this is, at the very least, a good model of what we should be trying to do.
Now that I have been corrected about how this Josh Howard deal could work I am even more excited. Giving up expiring contracts and players with no value (to me), like Blatche, is a much better idea than giving up Jamison, who i still think has some value (even with that albatross of a contract that we will be paying people to take off our hands this time next year). I really think Howard gives us the best of both worlds, giving us 9/10s of Butler’s offensive game and 9/10s of McGuire’s defensive game (making him expendable in any future deals as well).
While picking up Howard is great I really think the key is picking up Mike Miller (or to a lesser extent Kirk Hinrich). We still dont know what we are getting back with Gilbert Arenas. Not only in terms of injuries but also playing style, is he going to be the same shoot first type player that has made us all either hate/love him or is he going to be an 8-9 assist type guy like we saw at the tail end of last season? I think Mike Miller has the talents to play great with either one. If Gil wants to shoot than Mike has the floor leadership to run the offense and get Gil the ball when he needs it. If Gil wants to drive and kick and the ball out there arent many players I would want in a catch/shoot situation more than him.
PG – Arenas/Crittenton
SG – Miller/Young
SF – Howard/McGuire
PF – Jamison/Songalia
C – Haywood/McGee
Plus we would still have the 6th pick from the twolves with some interesting possibilities now that we arent so dependent on a player having to come in and make an immediate impact. Could Hill still be available?? I doubt it if its Dallas we trade out of 5 with. How about Evans, DeRozan (Ive been dying for the wiz to pick up an elite level athlete for years), maybe even Flynn.
The final move is packaging together some of the leftover players and trying to make some 2for1, 3for1 type deals to get rid of some players that probably shouldnt be in the league to begin with (pecherov, thomas, james… maybe even mcguire and songalia). If we are confident we can make those moves (or include these players in the previous deals) I dont see why we couldnt force the twolves hand into adding that 18th pick as well and pick up Budinger (only if we dont get Miller, again looking for an elite athlete) or take a chance on somebody like Hansborough.
We'd definitely shake things up while getting younger
The defense would probably be better, too, although we’d get torched by teams with good guards, although the only teams that would be unmanageable in the playoffs would be Chicago and maybe Miami.
by pantslessyoda1 on Jun 10, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
A deal for Howard makes perfect sense
1. His contract holds a team option after next year, so if he doesn’t pan out, Ernie could just let it expire and get back under the luxury tax.
2. We shouldn’t have to sacrifice any of our core in getting him (#5 pick along with an expiring and maybe Blatche should get the deal done), so it wouldn’t be a big risk in that regard either.
3. Howard would make the perfect backcourt mate for Gilbert Arenas. He can play the 2, and Caron can stay at the 3. He’s long and good defensively, so it would help cover up some deficiencies of Gil. He can knock down the 3. He can drive/create for Caron. He’s good on the fast break. He isn’t that great of a 2nd option, but would be great as a 4th option. And, he’s YOUNG and fits our core’s age.
4. Dallas is looking for a banging/rebounding forward, and there have been plenty of reports that they like Jordan Hill. We also recently worked out Terrence Williams, so it would make sense for us to get their #22 pick in return and draft him.
Dear Diary, JACKPOT!!!!!!!!!!
by Evander holyfield on Jun 10, 2009 3:42 PM EDT reply actions
He wouldn't be my first choice either
But it kind of makes sense why we are working him out today. I doubt he’d be there, but I’d rather have Ty Lawson. I’d go for the hometown hero Eric Maynor as well.
But Terrence Wiliams wouldn’t make much sense if we picked up Josh Howard anyway… Maybe Ernie feels Jason Terry is a better fit. I just don’t see how that would work – it would give us one of those small backcourts that I’m not a huge fan of.
Dear Diary, JACKPOT!!!!!!!!!!
by Evander holyfield on Jun 10, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm on board with Evander
For the 5th pick in a draft where 4-10 are all more or less equal and an expiring contract we can have a starting SG/SF in Howard for whom the team holds an option. My only concern about him attitudewise is not to let him ANYWHERE near Blatche. But maybe he needs a change of scenery. I like Terry much less because of the contract and age issues.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
I don't understand
You really would trade the #5 pick in the draft for one year of Josh Howard??
It’s interesting that Dallas is on the other end of this deal. They too have an aging big 3 (or 4), yet even though they made the playoffs and the Wizards were 19-63, Dallas is the team that is trying to get rid of their old, rundown pieces in exchange for fresh new ones. The different paths similar teams seem to be taking is interesting.
YES
a million times yes. You can’t keep one eye on the future and another in the present. With Jamison’s age and Gilbert’s health, we have a 2-3 year window. You go for it now with an established player who was two years ago considered the second best player on a very good team. You win now. The Celtics mortgaged their future to put together the Big 3, and I don’t hear anyone complaining about the championship they won.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Agree
Nothing is guaranteed with the #5 pick. It is still a crapshoot to what the player will bring as a rookie and afterwards. If you have the opportunity to trade that 5 pick for a guy who has shown he can score 20ppg, defend, and rebound, AND has a very reasonable contract, then you go for it.
Dear Diary, JACKPOT!!!!!!!!!!
by Evander holyfield on Jun 10, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
My concerns about Howard offensively
This steps on my later post, but even so.
1. His unbelievably high usage (above 25% each of the last three years) combined with his average efficiency (career TS%: 53.2).
2. He doesn’t pass (career 9.2 assist percentage). Not a huge concern, though, since Caron’s a good passer for a wing.
3. He scores a ton off isolation. His % of scores that were assisted this year (54%) was his highest since 2005, and that’s not particularly high for a shooting guard (the average for SGs that played >20 minutes this year was 58%)
4. He has a below-average eFG% on jumpers relative to SGs this year (44.4%, average was 46.7%), mostly because he’s shooting mostly mid-range twos.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Would he create matchup problems?
If he and Caron were to play on the court at the same time, I am assuming it would create a real problem for opponents. But this is without any scientific data.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
I dunno
What kind of matchup problems?
I definitely think someone will have to change their offensive game if Howard comes aboard, since a Caron/Howard/Antawn 2-3-4 trio doesn’t have a ton of shooting range. Similarly, an Arenas/Howard/Butler 1-2-3 trio includes three guys who don’t score a ton off the assist (Arenas is probably the most adept of the three).
It might be worth it because of Howard’s defensive potential. He’s consistently high in adjusted plus/minus, and Dallas has always defended way better with him on the court. He could guard 2s or 3s equally.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
To add data to this
Josh’s two-year APM is +4.16 and the Mavs allowed nearly 15 more points/100 possessions with him off the floor last year.
(<a href=“http:// ”http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009%20playoffs&team=DAL" target="_blank">http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009%20playoffs&team=DAL" >Basketballvalue)
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I'm not concerned about Howard's offense
My assumption would be that Howard would be the 4th fiddle offensively. Our team has had plenty of offensive production without him. Having Howard on the floor with the big three would give him opportunities to get easier baskets. I also feel that Flip’s rotations will be crucial to the chemistry of the team because Howard can fill up the stat sheet when some of the big 3 comes off the court.
Overall, we need to consolidate roster spots and raise the overall talent of our team. He does that. He also makes more sense than Terry because he’s younger, better defensive matchup and his versatility allows him to play the 2 or 3. The versatility of our players will cause a lot of matchup problems. The increased talent level will also force defenses to play honest. It’s hard to trap and rotate when you have 4 scorers and a legitimate big.
That said, I also would expect a second lower level trade to go down to get something in return for some of our other assets. There are only but so many people that you can include in the rotation.
Yeah
I’d take Howard for his defense and tell the others to figure it out offensively. I just wonder if there’s an even better fit on both ends than Howard.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
even better fit on both ends than Howard
Heinrich.
by MR on Jun 10, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Play him at SG
Where he played all this year for Chicago… He’s actually less expensive than Howard… although for a longer term.
Hinrich brings excellent on-ball perimeter defense; 3-point shooting, good passing, decent rebounder for a guard, and he would give the Wizards a 2nd initiator for the Offense.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I have him at SG. I’d love to see what Flip comes up with for an offense featuring those two combo guards.
by MR on Jun 10, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I like him a lot, but Hinrich doesn't compare to Howard
Especially since they both make around the same amount. Hinrich’s defense might be slightly better, but he doesn’t have the all around game that Howard does.
Throughout the regular season, having a guy like Howard who can create his own shot would be very important to this team. It would allow us to give Arenas/Antawn/Caron more rest, while not giving up scoring punch. When the playoffs roll around, it would give us even more versatility and scoring threat with a lineup of Arenas/Howard/Butler/Jamison/Haywood. That is a nice sized lineup that can score from anywhere, with guys who can create for themselves and others.
Dear Diary, JACKPOT!!!!!!!!!!
by Evander holyfield on Jun 10, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I certainly think they can create for themselves
It’s the creating for others part that I’m not so sure about.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
They might all be best creating for themselves
But in terms of sheer skill level, that starting 5 is extremely potent. I’d go as far as to say no team would be able to double team or cheat on defense.
Put the ball in Arenas’ hands, and let him create for everyone. As long as he gets the other guys in spots where they could score, they should be set. That lineup is full of legit finishers – something that is pretty rare in the NBA. Arenas can then embrace being the creating, passing point guard he said he wanted to be.
Dear Diary, JACKPOT!!!!!!!!!!
by Evander holyfield on Jun 10, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
This gives us a two year window
In summer 2011, Caron and Howard come off the books, Jamison is a $15 mil expiring contract, Blatche will be a $3.5 mil expiring contract, and we have team options on McGee, Crittendon, Young, and Pecherov. Gil is the only guarantee to be on our roster for the 2011-12 season.
Gotta go with Terry
For this team, this year – the need a 2 guard who’s an offensive threat, especially one with range, i think.
This team is in win-now mode, getting a shooter like Terry for the 5th pick would be reasonable, no matter his age.
"a crab dribble is when you travel" - caron butler
by little stevie colter on Jun 10, 2009 3:44 PM EDT reply actions
Alright, so here's my Howard offer
This allows the Wiz to cut salary and get a proven vet.
TO DALLAS
Etan Thomas (8.5 million)
DeShawn Stevenson (3.9 million)
Andray Blatche (3 million)
5th pick
TOTAL: 17.4 million
TO WASHINGTON
Josh Howard (10.9 million)
Jerry Stackhouse (7.3 million, only 2 million guaranteed)
TOTAL: 18.2 million
The 22nd pick would be nice, but it’s not a dealbreaker.
We get Howard, cut Stackhouse, save 5 million. Dallas gets Blatche, who they could use to replace Bass, and gets Stevenson, who could start for them instead of Antoine Wright while Terry comes off the bench. Plus, they get the fifth pick, where they could draft Jordan Hill.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I like it
That’s a perfect situation. #22 would be nice too, but I can live without it. I also have to admit, I don’t want to give up on Pecherov. He’s young and maybe can learn something from Flip. But there’s also still the possibility of consolidating a couple more guys. Or if we can’t pull anything off, James and Pecherov come off the books next season and we get some salary relief while keeping our main rotation intact.
C: Haywood/McGee
PF: Jamison/Songaila/Pecherov
SF: Butler/McGuire
SG: Howard/Young
PG: Arenas/Crittendon/James
I dunno
That team could still use some more depth. I’d like to try to see if anyone needing cap savings would swap James’ contract for a decent backup big. (James for Nick Collison? James for Jeff Foster?). Then, pray Abe doesn’t care about the tax and re-signs Haywood.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Eh, forget that
I’d rather sign Rasho Nesterovic or someone like him for the low-level exception and keep James’ contract.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I liked mine better
I still think Stevenson can be a good rotation player… and I’d rather get rid of James and Pecherov than Stevenson and Blatche.
Dallas might rather have $15 Million in expiring contracts for the 2010 FA market, than cheap, below average players. (even if they did like Blatche last year…)
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
But if 2010 was a consideration
They could just decline Howard’s option and get what they want anyway.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
You also offered less
Which is obviously ideal, but I doubt Dallas takes it without Blatche.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
If Blatche is included
Then who is the back-up center next year then?
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Any scrub for the LLE
McGee.
Hell, we could even ask Dallas to give us Ryan Hollins back. He works.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Boy
I sure hope Brendan doesn’t stub a toe….. or jam a finger…. or tweak an ankle…. and that he plays 36 minutes a game for 82 games.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
But you can always play
Songalia. Now while that is a joke, I haven’t seen enough from Blatche to think that he is anywhere near capable of being a good backup C.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Or, if you are shipping out James
than the assumption would be that the Poet will be ready to play backup this season before being shipped out.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Again
Take part of the money you save from cutting Stackhouse and sign any veteran backup center for the low-level exception.
Any of the above work:
-Zaza Pachulia (too expensive probably)
-Joe Smith
-Rasho Nesterovic
-Antonio McDyess (again, too expensive)
-Kwame
-Chris Mihm
-Brian Skinner
-Jamaal Magloire
-Francisco Elson
-Jason Collins
-Shelden Williams
-Melvin Ely
-Sean Marks
-Theo Ratliff
-Stromile Swift
-Pops Mensah-Bonsu
-Jarron Collins
Ideally … Nesterovic or Ratliff.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I was thinking more about
the money saved off the Tax bill…..
Get Howard… AND shave $6.6 Million off the Luxury Tax payment.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
True, your deal is ideal for us
But what is really in it for Dallas?
Dear Diary, JACKPOT!!!!!!!!!!
by Evander holyfield on Jun 10, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
$15 Million in expiring contracts (vs $11 Million for Howard) and the #5 pick
Which Dallas will use to select Jordan Hill – - – their PF of the future.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
And the cap flexibility that $15 Million brings in the 2010 FA Market
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Actually - I forgot Pecherov.... $16.2 Million in expiring contracts...
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
So basically the #5 pick for Howard straight up
That’s not enough from Dallas’ standpoint. They will want at least Deshawn, and more likely Blatche in addition to expiring contracts. They need some young potential for it to be worth it.
Hypothetically speaking, if Dallas balked at that offer of #5 and expirings and wanted Blatche in return too, would you do that deal?
Dear Diary, JACKPOT!!!!!!!!!!
by Evander holyfield on Jun 11, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Howard comes pretty close to what we need....
if the price is right, I say bite the, uh, bullet…
i dont know but if they take 5th pcik Deshawn and Songalia Pesh nstead of Blatche im for its i would want to swap our 1st too :) but not deal breaker
if Harden is gone then maybe
I really dont want to give up on Blatche yet he is only 22 years entering his 4 year
it would really suck to watch him leave and then turn into a stud like Rasheed and Ben Hamilton
not to worry
he doesn’t have the work ethic to become either of those guys. he got his guaranteed money and he’s on cruise control being a 6’11 2-guard. his value won’t plummet, but considering his effect on the other young pieces I prefer to remove him from the mix and get back a presence inside like Ronny Turiaf. Golden State would be a great fit for Blatche. They love 2 guards.
Yes I think it is time for Blatche to take his act elsewhere...
he is not as self destructive as a Keon Clark or as obvious a slacker as Tim Thomas (the world number one), but he is the same kind of talented tantalizer and negative role model.
We have to put together a roster that will (1) match up better with Orlando, (2) outrun Boston’s aging legs while countering the emergence of Rondo and the bulk of Perkins and Davis, (3) control the crab dribbler’s passing options and (4) stay ahead of the rest of the pack. Blatche. like the #5 and #32 picks, Young, Pech, Songaila, Stevenson and the expirings are fungible assets, bargaining chips that EG can use to help the Wizards get into that position. The only absolute keepers are GA, AJ, CB, BTH, DMac and JM.
Somewhere in the available pool, are players like Josh Howard and others whose names have been tossed out countless times who could make the difference. Obviously, not all of the Wizards’ tradeable assets will or should be traded, but the most likely candidates have to be Blatche, the 5 pick and the exprings.
Blatche has used up his "potential" window
He doesn’t have the toughness, work ethic, intensity, or court awareness that we need from a big. He’s also not skilled enough to be the 6’11" guard he thinks he is. Kevin Garnett or Bosh have the skillset to play at the elbow or post up, Blatche is not that talented.
Now, I don’t want to deny that he can develop into a good player, but just not here. It takes the right set of circumstances for most players to flourish. After reading the article, I see how we tried to hold on to 3 bigs with potential (Kwame, Etan, Brendan) in 2004 and 5 years later, only one has developed into a halfway decent player. We wasted millions of dollars and roster spots. Blatche is not as talented as Rasheed or Webber were. We can’t be scared to pull the trigger.
As far as the other “fungible assets” go, I think Songaila and Young are the two that we should aim to keep. Songaila is the type of bench player you need, his problem is that he makes almost $5 mil. Young needs good coaching and consistent confidence. With that, he can be our lead scorer of the bench and develop into a JR Smith type of role. He has the talent to be 6th man of the year and claim a starting spot in a couple of seasons.
That said, we do need some interior toughness on the bench to battle Dwight Howard, Josh Smith, Horford, Garnett, Perkins, etc.
Yes I agree... Darius and Nick are the two "bubble" players
I would least like to see the Wizards part with. Perhaps signing Rasheed Wallace as a free agent would resolve the bench toughness issue, because IMO Rahseed has some good miles left in his tank. For that type of free-agent signing reason, it would be nice if our deal with Dallas could also free up a roster slot.
Howard's a better player, Terry is a better fit, but neither is worth the #5
Jason Terry might actually be a good complement to Gilbert (or sub if Zero is hurt) but he’s overpaid and probably isn’t going to make THAT much of a different in the short term.
Howard is good but plays the same position as Caron and might leave in two years when his contract is up.
I guess I’d do it if you weren’t giving up much and could get the #22 back but I’d like to think that there might be someone better out there than Terry or Howard.
The trailer for Scorsese's lates "Shutter Island" @ www.soulhonky.com
Different maybe but not better....
I would think Howard and Terry are both in the upper quintile of NBA players. Unless you are intent on steaming once more into the Bosh and Stoudemire waters, the other available 2-3 options are people like Hinrich, Miller, Crawford, Marquis Daniels, Raja Bell etc. Other than Hinrich, possibly, I don’t think any of these players offers more of what the Wizards need than Howard.
Yes, in fact they both are
the Wiz need to prepare for the now rather than the future. The number five pick is a crapshoot. For every KG you can get at the position, there is an equal chance of also drafting a Tony Battie. Add that to the inability of the Wizards to develop young players, and Flip’s refusal to play them, a player like Howard is about market value for the pick.
As khrabb said more eloquently than I did, unless you a making a gigantic move, and mortgaging more of the team for an A LIST free agent, Howard is the best you are going to get for the age and price. The only other player besides Hinrich that I would throw into the mix is Gerald Wallace or Tayshaun Prince, who also come with their own specific issues.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
The only problem with Tayshaun and G Wallace is that
they are more 3 than 2, which means that Butler has to dorp back to the 2 where he was clearly uncomfortable last year (not to say it might be different if he is playing alongside Gil as opposed to you name it…)
Josh Howard is a long-term suspension waiting to happen. The guy is very open about the fact that he smokes weed in the off season. I personally have no moral issue with that and I wish more people were as open as him about it. I do however recognize that it is a) illegal, and b) warrants a suspension in the NBA for positive tests. He is a pretty good player, but he isn’t exactly going to bring any team a title. He also doesn’t appear to have endeared himself to his teammates.
Jason Terry is a decent bench player who is one of those guys who will always draw a salary figure too high for what he brings. When he was younger I would have considered him a strong defender at the pg postion, but now he is offense and nothing else. Another undersized 2 guard off the bench.
Neither player brings anything the wizards especially need, but as a player Howard might become an upgrade to Caron. Right now I’m not sure that is the case. He has a little more athleticism than Caron, but he doesn’t have the all around game or clutch shooting. He is probably too expensive to be a bench guy.
I agree, but if you know and ignore the warning sign thats a little stupider than not knowing and getting let down by a guy with a clean rep. I also agree that Jason Terry is more than a “decent” bench player, but he is starting the decline at this point in his career. I was always a big fan of his and if this was 5 years ago I’d be all over a trade for him.
Click reply
Terry had one of the best seasons of his career last year. He’s declining as much as Antawn Jamison is declining.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Hmmm...
JT had a nice year. His points and steals had a little jump from the previous year. I guess we should ignore the 6-7 successive years in a row that he declined in every single stat including FG%, FT%, 3PT%, scoring, assists, steals, and rebounds? One year does not a trend make.
What do you propose they do with him if the Wiz had him? You can’t have him play with Gil unless the winning strategy revolves around letting the other team score at will. What 2 guard in the NBA will JT or Gil guard exactly?
Howard has never been suspended for failing a test. And if he does fail two tests he’d be out 5 games. Compare time missed due to injuries versus zero time missed for suspension and it seems pretty silly to me to worry about something that has never ever caused him to miss time. In comparison I’d be much more concerned about his ankle problems.
really... the character stuff is a red herring with Howard...
which is so much the better for any potential acquring team, because right now he is rated below his actual value, in short a probable steal… shades of Bob Dandridge, another alleged head case who was (and still is) a complete winner.
decision making, not character
I didn’t say he had bad character. I do however see a red flag in someone who thinks it is a bright idea to publicly state that he breaks the law and league policy. There are a ton of players in the NBA who do worse, that isn’t my issue with the guy. If Brandon Marshall told local radio that he beats his girlfriends, but only in the Cayman’s where it isn’t under US jurisdiction, would that perhaps be a poor decision?
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Video: Exclusive footage of the puppy Air Bud
- Video: Isaiah Thomas destroys Wesley Matthews with a block
- Ryan Gomes’ wife gets needlessly trolled on Twitter
- Jerry West wants teams with upset, trade-demanding stars to ‘call their bluff’
- Karl Malone had to buy a scalped ticket to see his former team play
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
