So the Cavs lost tonight...
by Mike Prada on May 30, 2009 10:59 PM EDT
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PrintI'll be honest: while it makes me happy to see the Cavs lose, I'm not the type of person who is going to go around and gloat too much about it, particularly when we won just 19 games this year. It's also kind of concerning that a team from our division is going to the NBA Finals, though it should be noted that Orlando has financial problems that may prevent them from re-signing Hedo Turkoglu and Marcin Gortat.
That said, I'm sure many of you are different from me, and I also think I probably won't be able to help myself. So if you want to do any celebrating or any discussion of the Eastern Conference Finals result, here's the place to do it.
All I ask is that you all keep it civil. Otherwise, the thread is yours.
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Doing that jerk dance the kids are so fond of as we speak
Orlando’s going to be in trouble if they can’t keep Gortat and Turk, too. Gortat’s their only quality big other than Dwight. They’ll be scary good if they keep everyone and Jameer Nelson comes back as good as he was this year, too.
by pantslessyoda1 on May 30, 2009 11:04 PM EDT reply actions
Orlando was clearly the better team
Cleveland’s bigs are a big problem for them. Wallace is over the hill. Z seems to be pretty much there too. Varejao is a very good energy man off the bench, but is a decent starter whose best move is the flop.
I’m starting to feel that James makes other players on his team worse.
Go Orlando! Beat LA!
I'm definitely not there on the second sentence
But I am there on the first one. They could have used another big in this series, that’s for sure.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I haven’t watched a lot of Cleveland this year until this series. I just felt at times that James is so dominant and so oversized that it makes his teammates smaller. Was Mo this up and down all year? He was terrible most of this series. I just feel like the Cavs keep getting potential good no. 2 players and they never seem to pan out.
Just a thought.
Interestingly, I felt the same thing about post-Shaq Kobe in the past. In the past 2 years he has changed that and I think gotten to be a much better player despite looking as impressive individually. Maybe it’s that he’s surrounded by better players. I’ve felt the same way about Iverson.
I think this is something that Arenas needs to address in his career.
I dunno
Kobe had some terrible teammates back then. They started Smush Parker and Kwame Brown, after all. Now, he has Gasol, legitimately one of the five best big men in basketball.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Very true
but I think there was a change in Kobe too. I have nothing on hand to back this up. But it’s an impression I’ve had for a while. I think it’s hard for a ball-dominant high-scoring high-shot-taking perimiter player to keep/get his teammates hot. I think it must wear on their confidence, and I place a lot of weight in confidence in sports.
LeBron
has always been an unselfish player. But those other guys just don’t step up when it counts.
"The character of a person is in direct proportion to his commitment to excellence." -Vince Lombardi.
Another Chicken/Egg situation
My theory is that they are not stepping it up because he casts such a large shadow.
Or it could be because they aren't very good
I would love to blame LeBron James for his teammates not getting the job done, but I don’t think that would be right. In the regular season (and in the early rounds of the NBA playoffs) you can get by with two stiffs in the post and two ok guards that would probably be role players off the bench on a hypothetical NBA title team (Williams and West).
But in a 7-game series against an elite team those flaws get exposed. And I think my biggest question is what has happened to Daniel Gibson. What happened to the player that electrified the East with his shooting when the Cavs went to the Finals two years ago?
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on May 31, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Kobe
really does have a MUCH better surrounding cast. That’s why I will never buy into Kobe being better than Jordan. The Lakers would be a playoff team without Kobe. Not a championship team without Kobe (obviously). But they would definitely be contenders.
"The character of a person is in direct proportion to his commitment to excellence." -Vince Lombardi.
I don’t think they would be contenders without Kobe. The Bulls without MJ were pretty damn good. They lost the East Finals in game 7 the first year after MJ retired as I recall.
The Bulls did that 1 year
But without MJ, they couldn’t get over that hump.
Bynum, Gasol, and Odom are all big-time players and could probably be All-Star caliber without Kobe taking so many shots.
"The character of a person is in direct proportion to his commitment to excellence." -Vince Lombardi.
Hold on a sec
Bynum and Odom = all-stars? Then why haven’t they ever been before? Gasol only made it once before this year.
Someone who knows better than me, please reality-check me:
Bynum: Fair at best. This is the guy that was untouchable?
Gasol: Great since he got to LA, only decent before that. Not a #1 player.
Odom: Basketcase. As inconsistent as anyone in the NBA.
That is no contender to me. Doubt they’d even make the playoffs in the West.
Gasol led a bunch of crappy players in Memphis to 50 wins
Their second-best player was James Posey.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2004.html
Two years later, they won 49 with Mike Miller and a washed-up Eddie Jones as their top perimeter options.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2006.html
That was a while ago, but Gasol has proven he can take a bunch of nobodies to the playoffs at least.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Gasol has proven he can take a bunch of nobodies to the playoffs at least.
So can Jamison and everyone around here seems to think he needs to be traded.
When did Jamison take a bunch of nobodies to the playoffs?
Caron Butler was a big part of the 2007/08 season too.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Butler was also an All-Star that year
"The character of a person is in direct proportion to his commitment to excellence." -Vince Lombardi.
I don’t think Gasol is a bad player. On the contrary, I think he’s very good. But I don’t think he’s a #1 option unless you want to make the playoffs every other year and be eliminated in the first round.
The original point was that I don’t think the Lakers are contenders without Kobe, and probably not a playoff team in the West.
You know
Phil would find a way to keep them in the playoffs.
"The character of a person is in direct proportion to his commitment to excellence." -Vince Lombardi.
He's definintely
had some serious talent on his teams. Won’t he surpass Red Auerbach in championship wins when if the Lakers beat Orlando? Another reason I hope L.A. loses.
"The character of a person is in direct proportion to his commitment to excellence." -Vince Lombardi.
definitely *
"The character of a person is in direct proportion to his commitment to excellence." -Vince Lombardi.
I'm not sure what argument we're having, but here's what I think...
- MJ had a far worse supporting cast (for each of this titles) than Kobe does now.
- Gasol has always been legit.
- Bynum is excellent, and LA was right to make him untouchable. This is easy to forget with his injuries.
- Odom is nice to have as a 6th man.
No argument
Just intelligent banter… well… semi-intelligent banter.
But I agree with every sentence in your comment.
"The character of a person is in direct proportion to his commitment to excellence." -Vince Lombardi.
I will strongly disagree with this
Jordan without Phil Jackson = 0 titles
Jordan with Phil Jackson = 6 titles
And in between the two three-peats the Bulls nearly made the Finals without MJ (as someone else pointed out)
Kobe-Shaq Lakers without Phil Jackson = 0 titles (and got swept by the Spurs)
Kobe-Shaq Lakers with Phil Jackson = 3 titles (and would’ve been 4 in a row if the two jerks had put their personal problems aside to try and keep winning as they should have).
There has to be something said for that.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on May 31, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Phil Jackson has never coached a team that didn’t have at least one of the top three players in the league. All of his championships were won with two of the top handful of players. Twice he has inherited a team fresh off of the conference finals and ready to take the next step.
Jackson without two All-NBA players = 0 titles
by MR on May 31, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
Well, I don’t necessarily know better than you and I hope I’m not coming across that way.
But, Bynum’s problem has been that every time he gets into a consecutive double-double rhythm, he tweaks a knee. Gasol was a steal for the Lakers and doesn’t he average a double-double (or close to it). Odom’s numbers dropped off because for some reason Phil Jackson started bringing him off the bench. But he can be a double-double machine as well. And yes he is inconsistent.
"The character of a person is in direct proportion to his commitment to excellence." -Vince Lombardi.
Well, I don’t necessarily know better than you and I hope I’m not coming across that way.
No no no. Just some friendly midnight basketball banter.
When I say “somebody that knows better than me” it’s because I watch about 80 regular season games a year and 78 of them are Wizards games, so most of my info about other teams is based on reading and highlights, not first hand observation (except when a team plays the Wiz).
Either Bynum or Gasol puts us over the top...
You should pay more attention.
Us?
I think you are saying that adding either of those players to our team with a perennial all-star and two other bubble all-stars puts us over the top into championship contention.
Sorry, that isn’t an endorsement for those players or the original discussion over whether a Kobe-less Lakers is a contender.
Some people think Mike Miller puts us over the top.
Like you, I haven't watched much of Cleveland (yuck!)
unless they were playing the Wizards, and also during this last playoff series. I couldn’t watch them against the sorry Pistons and not against the Hawks. Going back over their stats in the three series, both Delonte West and Mo Williams were inconsistent, as was the Cleveland bench. The bench, however, really hurt them. And looking at the numbers, you can see that they lean way too much on LeBron. The guy can’t do it all by himself.
Against Detroit, West was 12, 20, 2, and 12. Williams was 12, 21, 2, and 24. Cleveland’s bench was 22, 10, 30, and 13. James was 38, 29, 25, and 36.
Against Atlanta, West scored 13, 14, 12, and 21. Williams was 21, 15, 11, and 12. The bench was 20, 31, 7, and 8. James was 34, 27, 47, and 27.
Against the Magic: West was 11, 12, 12, 17, 13, and 22. Williams was 17, 19, 15, 18, 24, and 17. The bench was 5, 14, 8, 14, 15, 10…collectively. James was 49, 35, 41, 44, 37, 25.
Hard to go against your argument of James being so dominate as to make his teammates seem smaller. He’d single-handedly carried this team. I’m willing to bet that if we look over the course of the entire season, that the above numbers would mirror what has been the case with them all year.
hooray lebron wont get his ring this year.
i respect him as a player but i don’t like him or his team. the cavs were too cocky, see mo williams guarantee, and the magic brought them back to earth.
What if...
James became a Wizard?
"The character of a person is in direct proportion to his commitment to excellence." -Vince Lombardi.
I still wouldn’t like him. Note that I don’t hate the dude, but the combo of the hype machine/incessant whining/pseudo arrogance is just on good. He shouldn’t be complaining about not getting calls when he gets so many his way all the time.
...one of those guys who reads all the time but barely comments
by Juice over Whine on May 30, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
*no good, sorry
...one of those guys who reads all the time but barely comments
by Juice over Whine on May 30, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
He shouldn’t be complaining about not getting calls when he gets so many his way all the time.
This really bothers me too. But then I ask myself “what is he supposed to do?” Of course he’s going to whine for calls. They all do.
Well for starters
He could at least pretend not to be deeply offended everytime he didn’t get a call since he gets nearly all of them. Or he could stop pretending to get hit in the face when he didn’t or make other such gestures to influence (or con) the referees.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on May 31, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
If it was hockey
Some goon would have already killed him.
Ding!
You and MR hit it right on the head. I don’t hate dude, I just really don’t like him or the hype machine. It’s annoying. It annoys me when it’s used to prop up Gilbert Arenas and at times I don’t like him either, but I still love my Wizards.
hahahahahahaha
…see username.
If only we could trade Taser for one day and have him put up 30 on us off their bench before we got him back...
by Juice over Whine on May 30, 2009 11:21 PM EDT reply actions
I never got what your username meant until now
Now it’s very clear.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I'll be honest
I really did want to see King vs. Mamba.
"The character of a person is in direct proportion to his commitment to excellence." -Vince Lombardi.
I'm pissed at Denver
I thought they looked like the better team, but played so stupidly. I would have loved Orlando vs Denver. Anything to make David Stern squirm.
IMO
On paper, L.A. has the best team (with the exception of Boston maybe). But for a little while there, it really did look like Denver would just bully the Fakers into submission.
"The character of a person is in direct proportion to his commitment to excellence." -Vince Lombardi.
Yeah, man.
I was hoping for Denver-Magic just to spite the powers that be. LOL! I do like Carmelo and Howard so that would’ve been pluses.
Beautiful
And kind of makes me hungry.
by pantslessyoda1 on May 31, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I kind of feel bad...
But tonight was the best night of the NBA season for me. Sad, but true.
I’m pulling for the Magic now, but only because I’ve never cared for LA. Either way, this series is far more important to me.
After scoping a couple of Cavs blogs, I have a few observations:
+ Many serious Cavs fans get that they did not, in fact, have the better team, and that if they don’t bolster the frontcourt they will never get it done.
+ There is little bashing of the Magic or of the officials, in other words no excuses. Aside from the natural “Games 1 and 4 were toss-ups that we lost”, I think they are being very fair.
- There is some irrational thinking that D-West and Varejao are key to future success.
- They (amazingly) under-estimate the importance of LeBron to the team’s success, thinking that the (great) progress they’ve made this year is to be credited to the supporting crew.
My take: As much as I like Lebron, this series (and to some extent this year) has proved him to be the most effective player in NBA. No man (not named Jordan) can get it done with a mediocre supporting cast.
Agreed
I’m rooting for the Magic too. I know they’re a division rival, but they don’t really have anyone who bothers me on their team.
now that the cavaliers lost i’m not so sure that they are favorites next year. orlando is good, boston will be healthy hawks, heat and chicago are improving, plus the wizards will be back. cleveland will not win as much games as they did this year. lebron can only carry a team so far.
I'm not sure
I seriously doubt that Garnett will ever be the same. And if that’s true, they’ll be a good team, but I doubt they can reach the Finals without him being 100 percent.
I couldn't be much happier
I don’t see how Lebron’s last-second game winner in game 2 was any more of a big deal than Glen Davis’s (BTW, I think James is a challenger for Davis’s nickname). I really didn’t like him calling MJ “that guy” in his post-conference interview. It’s not that I’m that big of an MJ fan, it’s that I just find the hype and self-promotion obnoxious. MJ has six rings. Lebron can put up all the impressive individual stats he wants — he’s still got zero.
My favorite quote, from the espn.com writeup: “Oh, and memo to Nike executives: it’s time to reak out the Howard puppet. LeBron’s can go in summer storage.”
He’s a hell of an individual player, but also a pompous jackass who gets extra calls from the league because it’s in their interest to promote him as a brand. There just isn’t much to root for in that. So yeah, go Magic, glad to see “the King” go another year not living up to his own pre-written legend.
I'm really glad Orlando won
If things went to a game seven, there’s no way the Magic had any chance.
very gratifying to see cleveland lose - orlando just better.
and i know it’s not 100% james’s fault, but nicknaming someone ‘King …’ irks the shit out of me when they haven’t won anything.
but i actually have more respect for lebron’s game after this series than before. no denying the dude is flat out awesome. don’t have the %’s but it seems like his outside shot keeps getting better, which is scary.
i wonder though – is james going to end up like jordan? or iverson? that team could go either way and if they’re smart ( i think ferry’s a pretty good GM) they’ll tweak the roster and get another top-flight player with james, ASAP. their 2nd best player is mo williams??? he had a good year and all, but he will not be a championship teams #2 best player. Z is looking older, ditto wallace, joe smith. they have no good size – james would probably be their best center if he had to. total freak.
i think cleveland maxed out with their current roster this year. and that’s just alright with me.
"a crab dribble is when you travel" - caron butler
by little stevie colter on May 31, 2009 1:40 AM EDT reply actions
Still a supporting cast problem...
Mo Williams is the best #2 that the Cavs have given LeBron James to date… but he is not enough. Dwight Howard turned their front line into applesauce. The Cavs need a Bosh or a Stoudemire (does that sound familiar?).
I don't think they need that much
But LeBron could definitely use a frontcourt scorer. If only the Cavs still had Boozer…
Maybe they should go after Millsap or David Lee. They have to use Ben Wallace’s expiring contract, but other than that, they don’t have too many assets.
The biggest thing is not to overreact. Orlando was the one team that could really match up with them. Well, possibly the Lakers too.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Point taken...
Lee or Millsap would be nice pieces for the Cavs
Cavs don't have too many assets
Ben Wallace’s expiring will not get Cleveland very far…. Any team trading a valuable player will want more than just an expiring contract – they’ll want high draft pick(s), and/or young talent in return. OR, Cleveland will have to take back a putrid contract in return… ie: David Lee + Eddy Curry – - – - for – - – - Wallace (expiring) + Pavlovic (deal assumes David Lee signs an extension for roughly $9 Mil per year)
New York would do that deal in a heartbeat – That would position them to steal away both Lebron James AND Dwayne Wade (and perhaps Chris Bosh as well) in 2010….
Cleveland is old…. they don’t have any young talent. (Except perhaps JJ Hickson – but they never play him, so how does anyone know how good he’ll be?) – and they’ll continue to get poor positioning in the Draft. I think it’s going to be real hard for Danny Ferry to do any upgrading this Summer.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Magic shouldn't have problems re-upping Turkoglu.
.. as for Gortat, he’s good as gone (unless something miraculous happens).
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Gortat would make great sense for Chicago...
They need someone with muscle and authority to fit with Noah, Thomas and Miller. Plus Chicago is the capital of Polonia (the second largest Polish speaking community in the world after Warsaw), the town would go nuts over him
From my vantage point
It depends on how low the tax comes down. If it stays even, they’re probably okay. If it goes down, they’re in more trouble
Without Hedo and Gortat, Orlando is around 63 million in team salary. They could try to trade Rafer Alston for a salary on the low end of the 125 percent rule and get more breathing room, and cutting Jeremy Richardson works as well. But then you have to hope Hedo doesn’t ask for something like 10 million a year after this year’s playoff, not to mention that you have to sign/draft somebody to replace Gortat at backup center (you’d think).
On the one hand, this year’s playoff run plus the new arena may give Orlando ownership reason to go slightly over the tax. On the other, Orlando was really struggling financially before the playoff push, so I don’t know. I don’t think there will be “no problems” re-signing everybody, that’s for sure. They may get it done, but it’ll be tricky.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
What lessons can the Wizards draw from this series?
I have always assumed that the Wizards would need an outstanding lockdown defender at the 2 or 3 in order to check James and beat the Cavs. Yet Orlando beat the Cavs by guarding James a good amount of the time with Turkoglu. I guess with the right defensive system and a coach that emphasizes defense, you don’t need all-NBA defensive team members at every position to play great defense.
Other thoughts? Three point shooting is really important?
size
the wiz have a hard time becuase they don’t have anyone that is as big as james that can keep up with him. Hedo was ok at defending him b/c he’s huge and has decent mobility. Peitrus was then hedo b/c he was about the same size but quicker. The wizards don’t have the size to battle james, and if they’re big enough, they’re not fast enough.
three point shooting is huge. without it the magic wouldn’t have won. Bringing in a dominant big man would attract double teams and allow better 3 point shots, something we haven’t been doing. Brendan is good but not going to get doubled like howard
So
the perfect solution for the Wizards would be to trade for Amare Stoudemire?
He’s a big, low post threat…. that would command double-teams…. and allow open 3-point shots.
He’s a better post defender than Antawn Jamison…
That would leave two good perimeter defenders to guard LeBron (Stevenson and McGuire)… They’re not as big as Pietrus or Turkoglu – but they’re more mobile. Funnel Lebron into Haywood / Stoudemire….
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I don't think the series had much to do with defending LeBron
It had more to do with the Magic’s offense. Simply put, no one on the Cavs’ roster could defend Howard one-on-one, so when the Cavs would double down to swarm Howard, they would just kick the ball out or swing it around until someone got an open look from the outside. All they had to do was surround Howard with three or four shooters, and they did.
LeBron still averaged about 40 points per game in the series, so he got his. But they played pretty good defense on almost everyone else, and they hit a ton of threes — I think they tied the record for the most threes in a six-game series. If LeBron didn’t absolutely take over the game and get just about every call down the stretch, the Magic were in good shape.
And it’ll be an interesting Finals, I think.
I guess with the right defensive system and a coach that emphasizes defense, you don’t need all-NBA defensive team members at every position to play great defense.
We have a winner!
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Unsportsmanlike conduct?
LeBron leaving the floor, after losing game 6 – did not shake anyone’s hand. Did not shake Howard’s hand. Refused to show up for the post game interview; leaving Mo Williams to do the dirty work. Just got dressed and got on the team bus.
I understand that he was probably frustrated and disapointed – but come on…. You can’t take 10 seconds to shake Dwight Howard’s hand? Say “Good series, and good luck against LA”? You can’t sit in front of the Press at the post game interview and answer the tough questions?
S’matter LeBaby – afraid you’d cry? or more likely – throw your teammates under the bus?
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
So glad this happened
It shines a light on his bullshit sense of entitlement in a way that the league can’t easily paper over. Cue the army of commentators who will talk about how he’s “only 24” and has a lot of growing up to do. Cue the responses from others who will note that it’s his sixth year in the league, he can behave with the class and maturity expected of decent college players. Maybe that’ll lead one of them to actually note that the difference between Jordan’s game-winner and his was that Jordan’s actually sent his team to the next round…
the best part of it all
was when craig sager gave a report from LeBron’s mom in the wrap up show.
lmao
I refuse to deny my joy in seeing the Cavs go down and LeBron act like a female.
'he nails an open three from the corner....just like you and me, this one was made by penetration' - Truthaboutit - Round 1 Game 5 Recap
"Act like a female?"
You’re hanging out with wroooooong females then, KDP. All the women I know have at least an inkling of how to act classy…
I’ll say it again, I think LeBron just stole Glen Davis’s nickname. “Big Baby” sounds just about right, wouldn’t you say?
Maybe Phil Jackson was right
You build through the big not the wing player. LeTravel can go take a fishing trip.
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