Getting to Know Flip Saunders, Part 2

by JakeTheSnake on Apr 22, 2009 12:23 PM EDT in Coaching Comment 25 comments

Now that we know who the Wizards next head coach is going to be, we can begin to focus on examining his coaching style and what changes Flip Saunders will bring to the team next season. To get a better idea of what he brings to the table, we asked Motown String Music some questions about their former coach so we know what to look for next season.

1. Let's start off with the basics, what would you say Flip's greatest strengths and weaknesses are as a coach?

From what I know when he was on the Pistons, I'd say his greatest strength was putting out an offensive scheme that put up points. I remember when we first got him, I was excited because I thought we'd average over 100 points per game with his style. However, with that comes a downgrade on the defensive side. I didn't see a major drop off but I did notice there was one. His greatest weakness, and this may have to do with the Pistons particular group of players, but I think he had communication issues with his players. One of the reasons he was canned, in addition to not getting over that ECF hump, was he didn't have the respect of some of his players.

2. In your opinion, what led to Flip's downfall in Detroit and do you think his firing was justified?

As I just said, he didn't have players respect. I don't know what to attribute it to (upset they lost Brown, or changing the scheme up), but it was clear some of the players weren't keen on him. I think the firing was justified because there's no point in having a guy that some of your players don't respect here if you're also going to be doing some renovating with the player personnel. I think the Billups trade signaled the end of this core of players and what better way to start somewhat of a rebuilding process with a new coach that the GM and players respect a lot.

3. Flip is well known for his offensive coaching ability. In what aspects of the offense did Flip improve the team the most?

What offenses do: scoring. There were games I thought the Pistons were going to win 130-120 and others they played it old school and would win 80-70. That never really happened under Larry Brown. It was always those 80-70 games with a sprinkle of scoring. Flip brought a whole dosage of it and it showed.

4. Detroit's defensive rankings were always strong under Flip Saunders, but they were also quite good when Larry Brown and Rick Carlisle were in charge. Did Flip do anything to put his own stamp on the defense or do you think he was just riding the coattails of his predecessors?

I think he was just riding the coattails. The defense has slowly faltered over the years and it started with the departures of Larry Brown and Ben Wallace. Flip seems to be an offense first kind of coach.

Many thanks to Motown String Music for their insight into Flip's tenure in Detroit. If you're looking for more insight into the Pistons, or if you're just interested in Cleveland's opponent right now, check it out.

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Not to knock Motown

because I appreciate the time spent answering questions for us, but the only themes I see here are the same cliches: “Flip is good at offense and bad at defense,” and “Flip is a nice guy who isn’t respected.”

Not saying that in the abstract the critics are wrong, but there’s gotta be a little more to this guy, right? I mean, the story can be told different ways I think. Another perspective would be that he’s an offensive innovator who gets his teams to play solid defense and has had a few disgruntled players try to smear him.

I guess what I’m saying is that I’m willing to give Flip a blank slate to write on.

Getting buckets since 2003.

by Icantfeelmyface on Apr 22, 2009 1:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree

These answers in general surprised me a bit. It’s the same cliches lobbed against Flip when he was fired in Detroit. Which in and of themselves aren’t surprising, but I’m surprised to still hear them when Detroit has taken such a huge nosedive this season.

For one, I don’t remember any Pistons games that were ridiculously high-scoring like he seems to say. They played slower under Flip than they did under Larry Brown.

Also:

I think the Billups trade signaled the end of this core of players and what better way to start somewhat of a rebuilding process with a new coach that the GM and players respect a lot.

Is he referring to Michael Curry? Because it seems to me they don’t respect him at all either. The team’s record really speaks for itself here — sure, they traded for Iverson, but is he really worth 19 wins all by himself? If this is how Detroit is rebuilding/reloading, then how are they getting off to a good start.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Apr 22, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

19 wins

Repeating myself…

That trade told everyone in the organization that it was time to rebuild. Dumars went completely against his philosophy when he acquired Iverson and he did so for 1 reason: money. Iverson expires while Chauncey has a lot of money guaranteed to him. It allows the Pistons to re-tool quickly or save money and go after players in the summer of 2010. When someone had to go to the bench it wasn’t Stuckey because he’s the future. it was either Rip or Iverson.

When you have a team used to go after the Championship and the front office makes this move all bets are off. Another way of saying that basketball is slightly more intricate than -Billups + Iverson = -19 in the win column.

Gilbert played 13 games last year, Haywood 80. the team won 43. With Gilbert for 2 but without Haywood for 76 the team lost 24 more games. So does Haywood = 24 wins?

by Jheiser3 on Apr 22, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Another way of saying that basketball is slightly more intricate than -Billups + Iverson = -19 in the win column.

That’s exactly my point. You’re the one simplifying things and making this all a ripple effect from the Iverson trade.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Apr 22, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

At some point

you hear from enough people, it has to sink in. I don’t think it has yet around here but it has to eventually… Flip is Flip, he is not suddenly going to be something new just because he’s new here.

Another perspective would be that he’s an offensive innovator who gets his teams to play solid defense and has had a few disgruntled players try to smear him.

Or is the first perspective, one you’ve now heard from several different people, just reality? You read people and their perspective but its negative. So you have to spin it to feel better. That’s somewhat natural. Its been full on Flip Spin mode around here for awhile. Now reality is creeping in and you struggle with the disconnect.

The best compliment I can think of is that Flip is the NBA equivalent of Norv Turner.

by Jheiser3 on Apr 22, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

norv never got his team near 50 wins

"a crab dribble is when you travel" - caron butler

by little stevie colter on Apr 22, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nope

He did take over a very good team, lead them to 8-8 with one win and then a playoff exit. He also doesn’t command respect from his team in any way shape or form, often avoiding conflict to the detriment of his team. Very Flipish.

by Jheiser3 on Apr 22, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ok - i was being a little flip

and i see where you’re coming from, at least from a general personality stand point.
but i think flip’s resume is a step above norv’s.

optimism for now.

"a crab dribble is when you travel" - caron butler

by little stevie colter on Apr 22, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know, as was I, too a point.

Flip has had more time as a head coach. Otherwise they are very similar. They got to the playoffs in their first gig (Wolves/Redskins). At least I think Norv got there once… in their last or most recent gig they took over a team that already had had great success, just short of the SB for the Chargers/Finals loss for the Pistons. Both were expected to get the franchise back to the top.

In Norv’s case the Chargers hadn’t been the SB yet but went deep into the playoffs while Detroit had a ring and a loss in the Finals already. Neither improved on the team’s most recent outcomes and in some ways each franchise took a step back. The Chargers had to rally to get to 8-8.

by Jheiser3 on Apr 22, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ugh - your analogy makes a little too much sense now that you fully spell it out

it disturbs me. norv did indeed make the playoffs with the skins – i believe there was a missed or botched field goal attempt involved in their loss.

the thing is, at least for flip’s 1st season with the wiz, i think fans will be ok with just getting back to the playoffs and being competitive after this crap season. i think the true indicator of his norv-itude will be in the years after next.

"a crab dribble is when you travel" - caron butler

by little stevie colter on Apr 22, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Norv took a long time to get the Skins in the playoffs

Flip was there every year he coached in Minnesota. Plus, San Diego never won a Super Bowl like Detroit did.

So the analogy falls apart a bit.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Apr 22, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

getting techincal

In Flip’s business more than half the teams get into the playoffs while in Norv’s its 20%. Flip was 40-42 in his first full year, that got him into the playoffs. He didn’t make it past the first round for how many years? 8? He didn’t win his division until 2004, never finished above 3rd until then actually.

I think it fits just fine.

by Jheiser3 on Apr 22, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not to keep on with the life and times of norville turner

but – football head coach is more influential than an NBA coach, i think.
flip will add a few offensive wrinkles, some zone, and then hope that arenas, jamison, butler and haywood (who constitute a lot more talent than flip’s 1 and done teams in MN) actually ‘run’ the team.

"a crab dribble is when you travel" - caron butler

by little stevie colter on Apr 22, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will say...

first, thanks for not attacking me personally as I so often see happen in situations like this where one may overtly disagree with what has been said or written. Two, thanks to you guys for allowing me to speak about what I know.

I’m giving my perspective on it and it just so happens that it’s very similar to what you see elsewhere in the media. I quickly crunched some numbers from last season just now and wanted to relay it to you FYI: the Pistons scored less than 90 points in 17 games last season. They scored above 100 points 35 times.

This year the Pistons scored above 100 points 26 times (9 less) and less than 90 points 29 times (12 more than the year before).

If you think that’s unfair since this year’s team didn’t have Chauncey then look to 2004…

In their championship season they scored above 100 points just 23 times (3 less than this year and 12 less than during Flip’s final season).

Flip runs offense. It’s cliche because it’s true.

As for why he was fired, it was no secret in Detroit that the players didn’t respect him and I think “little stevie colter” said it best that the players weren’t necessarily happy with Larry Brown’s firing and I know from someone inside the organization that he had troubles communicating with them. Players and him never really met eye to eye.

Also, I don’t know how it is now, but coming into this season everyone on the team loved the Curry hiring. He was Joe’s guy (the GM) and players looked up to Curry for his leadership qualities and hard work. I think Flip’s firing may have been a little premature, but it was inevitable without a championship in those first couple years. Like I said, the Pistons sure aren’t playing like they love their coach, but I know how it was before the season started.

Thanks again guys, and enjoy Flip. I liked him as our Coach and definitely think he’s a step up. I don’t think there’s any denying that.

Motown String Music

by Packey on Apr 22, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just realized

that wasn’t their championship season..that was the year after..2004-2005….Larry Brown run team nonetheless

Motown String Music

by Packey on Apr 22, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i think flips biggest problems in detroit

was that the team had already won a championship, recently, with a different coach. so any changes he made or wanted to make were probably resisted by players a little bit (or a lot).

and, also, sheed. flip’s 2nd or 3rd best player was a total jerk, who can poison a teams attitude.

"a crab dribble is when you travel" - caron butler

by little stevie colter on Apr 22, 2009 2:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

They just flat out refused to listen to his near the end. Rasheed wanted man to man, Flip wanted zone. Maybe if Detroit had a better showing this year then maybe I would be more convinced with the no earned respect argument, but as it stands I think the Pistons players never really did get over Larry Brown and refused to accept any other coach.

by Fundefined on Apr 22, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Haywood

Another concern i have is what he does with Haywood. Eddie, once he decided to play him, made Haywood the #1 “defender of the rim”. I thought Haywood took that role and ran with it. He has also developed a few nice moves and from reports is already working toward next year.

My concern is that Flip will run everything through AJ/CB and Gil the way he completely ignored Ben Wallace. Now, Haywood is much better than Wallace offensively but that wasn’t the point. Wallace carried them defensively and in return Larry Brown would post him up twice a game and let him go. Flip saw him as a low percentage play and completely ignored him on offense, making him a screener only. It was a slap in the face and took Wallace away from the rim.

by Jheiser3 on Apr 23, 2009 10:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not making Wallace an offensive option is not a slap in the face.

That’s not where his skills are, and if he was too egocentric to face reality then that’s his problem.

Furthermore, his skills had declined precipitously by the time he was traded. Again, that wasn’t Flip’s fault. Flip’s coaching had little to do with his declining effectiveness on the defensive end.

Getting buckets since 2003.

by Icantfeelmyface on Apr 23, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Totally agree with Ican'tfeelmyface

Haywood is a different situation. I actually wouldn’t mind seeing fewer fadeaways from him anyway.

For now I’m giving Flip the benefit of the doubt when I hear about problems Wallace had.

by MR on Apr 23, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Aloof

Wallace wasn’t demanding touches or to be the focal point of the offense. He was after some basic recognition that defensive contributions mattered. Flip treated him like the slow kid a recess “Don’t shoot, just pass”. Considering Wallace was the 20% of the team doing 80% of the heavy lifting thats a slap in the face. Flip found a way to alienate and de-motivate the most active player in the league. Worth noting that Wallace wasn’t declining during this period, although his points per did fall from 9.5 to 7.3, thats largely due to fewer shots taken. 8.8 to 6.7 under Flip.

He was still on the All-defensive team, 2nd team all-NBA, 4th in rebounding, 2nd in defensive WIN, 5th in blocks, 10th in steals, 3rd in Def rating. He was in the top 10 in a lot of these categories in 06-07 as well while with Chicago.

Btw, Dumars let Wallace walk in free agency to Chicago. Chicago traded him to Cleveland.

by Jheiser3 on Apr 23, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wallace is one of the worst offensive players in the league

I know what you’re saying, but hustling, playing defense, and grabbing boards shouldn’t earn a player more offensive touches if he’s terrible on offense. If he could hit his free throws, that would be one thing, but he can’t. His value was/is in defense and rebounding, not offense. Obviously I don’t know the things that Saunders said to Wallace, etc., but maybe Wallace shouldn’t have taken it personally.

And if you don’t believe that, just look at how he constantly declined even after leaving Detroit. Chicago was nice enough to pay him a ton of money and give him plenty of recognition, and he got shipped out pretty quickly after they realized he wasn’t the same player anymore.

Krem's Sports Blog

by Matt K. on Apr 23, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well then, if you're worried about Haywood's touches

you should be ecstatic that the Wizards didn’t hire Avery Johnson as their Head Coach.

Johnson ran everything through his forwards…. Nowitzki and Josh Howard (and Jerry Stackhouse)…. Leaving guys like Erick Dampier, Devin Harris (and later Jason Kidd) to mop up the few meager crumbs that were left over.

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Apr 23, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Funny

So he went through the best players on the team? And in so doing won 60+ 2 straight years? I’d be fine if he kept doing that. Btw, He had Kidd for 29 games total.

by Jheiser3 on Apr 23, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I overstated

his declining skills – I was more thinking his first year in Chicago then his last in Detroit.

But I still don’t have a problem with telling him not to shoot unless it’s an offensive putback. If he got demotivated because he Flip wasn’t calling isolation plays for him then tough cookies.

That said, Haywood is a legit post option and I will have a problem if Flip gets away from him. I just think the Wallace example is totally different.

Getting buckets since 2003.

by Icantfeelmyface on Apr 23, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs