Lebron or Howard?
by zeke5123 on Apr 17, 2009 6:21 PM EDT
78 comments
This question is all over Sports Center. So what do you all think? I would argue, even ignoring the fact the LeTravel is a terrible human being, Howard has to be the pick. The scarcity at Center is greater than the scarcity at wing. As such, even if Howard isn't the better player, he provides greater value.
This applies to the Wizards in regard to McGee. If you have a center who has the upside that McGee has, you must give him every chance to fail before trading him.
I hope this topic is ok for this site.
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
0 recs |
78 comments
Email
Print
Comments
So - what is the question?
Which player is MVP?
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 17, 2009 7:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i think it's more 'who would you build a team around' kind of a thing
"a crab dribble is when you travel" - caron butler
by little stevie colter on Apr 17, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Always go with the franchise Center
Howard for sure….
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 17, 2009 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Big Men tend to last longer and are tougher to scout a decent one. Howard for me as well.
by Fundefined on Apr 17, 2009 10:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not so sure
Although no one on here likes Lebron James the man, including myself, we all cannot deny the basketball talent that he has. Lebron has the capabilities of going down as the greatest player of all time. Howard would go down as one of the greatest centers of all time, but he wouldn’t be remembered as possibly the greatest player ever. If I had to choose, I would most certainly want Lebron James, the basketball talent, but would unquestionably take Howard’s character over Lebron’s
by bigrm18 on Apr 17, 2009 10:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But how many good wings can you mention?
Caron Butler fills up the stat sheet. Lamar Odom. Shawn Marion back in his prime. The list goes on and on. How many great centers can you think of in the Association? A team with a great center and good wing seems to win more than a team with a great wing and average center.
by zeke5123 on Apr 17, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's somewhat true
Except for the fact that none of those players can even compare to Lebron. Just as “Icantfeelmyface” has just commented as I type this, Lebron’s game is revolutionary. Lebron may go down as the most unstoppable NBA player ever. There are defenders that are quick enough to stay in front of him, but aren’t strong enough stop him and vice versa. If you put Haywood on Howard, Haywood would at least be able to control Howard. You can’t name a person in the NBA that can at least control Lebron, you can’t name a person in the world that could even control Lebron, especially if he’s hot. Whenever we face the Magic I never say “oh no, we have to face Howard” but you can be assured that I’m saying the exact opposite when we face Lebron. Not that I enjoy facing Howard, but it’s a lot worst when we face Lebron.
Lebron can hit the three, hit the midrange, he can jump out the jam, he can dunk like no other, he can pass with the best of them, he can defend your best player, rebound, post up, lead his team by example, block shots, and he can make everyone hate him. (except for the idiots and bandwagoners of Cleveland)
Believe me, I can’t stand a thing about Lebron, but I have to be realistic and come to the conclusion that Lebron is at least the second best player in the NBA in everyone’s eyes. If he continues on the path that he is on now he’ll go down as possibly being even better than Jordan.(sigh)
Could Howard go down as one of the greatest centers ever? Sure. But could Howard go down as one of the greatest players ever? Possibly, if he begins hitting three’s with consistency, but highly unlikely.
by bigrm18 on Apr 18, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meh
I think you are overstating Lebron a little.
No doubt he is top tier, but he’s not the first player in the association to be really good.
That said, I still think if I had the first pick to start a team I’d start with him. Not all-time, though, by a long shot.
by MR on Apr 18, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you mean
a team with a great wing (Lebron) and an average center (Big Z) doesn’t win as much as a team with a great center (Dwight) and two very good wings (Lewis and Turg)?
I agree with you that having a great center can have the most impact on wins and defense, but choosing between that great center and a top 3 player in history in his prime is asking too much.
Dear Diary, JACKPOT!!!!!!!!!!
by Evander holyfield on Apr 18, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ehh
I think it might be a mistake to lump in LeBron with other wings, just like you wouldn’t only think of Magic as a mere PG. Both players absolutely changed the way that people conceive of the positions, by playing them differently then anyone ever had before. Also, both players are/were versatile enough, skilled enough, big enough, to play every position on the floor.
So, I think it’s hard to just look at LeBron as a “wing” and dismiss him because he’s not the “big man” that you traditionally build your franchise around. His game is revolutionary in that it is nearly incomparable to anything else we’ve ever seen. He’s not a Caron, an Odom, a Marion. He absolutely dominates the entire floor on both offense and defense from his position, and the team follows his lead and has adopted his confidence. Dwight Howard is an incredible talent, maybe even has a chance to be a top-5 all-time center before all is said and done, but I don’t know how you pick him over James.
As to Howard providing “more value,” I’m not sure where you get that. I’d have to see some numerical arguments first, but I’ll leave that to others.
Disclaimer: I threw up a little in my mouth writing all that crap about LeTravel. I wish I could wash out my mind with soap.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Apr 18, 2009 12:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Postional adjustment
LeTravel adds more unadjusted value, but I’m borrowing from a baseball concept. .850 OPS at SS is more valuable than a .900 OPS at 1B because SS is more a position of scarcity in terms of batting. I’m making up numbers, but lets say the average SS hits .700 OPS and the average 1B hits .800 OPS. Ignore defense for the comparison. So in the original argument, the the SS with the average 1B =1.65 OPS. The 1B with average SS =1.6 OPS.
Scarcity at a position improves the value of a player, in context. Since I’m assuming centers, on average, perform worse than wings than Howard would get a positional bonus bumping him higher than LeTravel in value. Of course, this is ancedotal, I don’t have any hard numbers for adjustment, but LeTravel leads Howard by an average of 3.4 Win Shares a season. So after a positional adjustment, my guess is Lebron will have the smallest of advantages. On top of that, Howard is a year younger, with Lebron having his best season this year, so Howard is at a statistical disadvantage. He is trending up. And sorry if Win Shares isn’t a good metric. I’m more use to baseball metris than basketball.
by zeke5123 on Apr 18, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hold the "revolutionary" talk until he's won 6 Championships
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 18, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally agreed
Revolutionary? WTF?
You guys watch too many NBA love letters…I mean commercials.
by MR on Apr 18, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look
Who else has played the position like he does? I mean, it’s the skill set that he has at that size – I can’t think of any other small forward who has even been close to being not only a point forward, but being able to score from anywhere on the court.
So yes, in terms of him being something at SF that the NBA has never seen before, he’s “revolutionary,” and I don’t think that’s hyperbole. Maybe not the best word, but I still can’t think of a better one. Please help me out.
Also, my opinion has NOTHING to do with the commercials (which I absolutely despise) and everything to do with watching basketball games.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Apr 19, 2009 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, let's see...
If Magic Johnson (6’9" Point Guard) was allowed to:
travel on every other play……
recklessly plow through the lane, irregardless of players in the way….
lower his shoulder into the chest of his opponent………
commit endless reach in fouls (without any being called)…..
And if he:
Scowled, any time he thought an opponent came too close to him…
Checked his teeth and lips every time he hit the floor….
Continually whined about being fouled……
He would have been LeBron James….
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 19, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way...
Did LeBron have 43 points and 28 rebounds in his first NBA game, like Wilt Chamberlain did?
Has he ever scored 100 points in a game? Or 4,000 points in a season, like Chamberlain?
Has LeBron ever had a season where he scored 24 points per game with 24 rebounds per game, and 8 assists?
Has LeBron averaged 30 points and 22.9 rebounds per game for his career, like Wilt?
Wilt was “revolutionary”…. LeBron is only average, compared to the things Chamberlain accomplished.
How about averaging a triple double for an entire year, like the “Bib-O”, Oscar Robertson? (31 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 11.4 apg)
Or averaging 26 ppg, 7.5 rpg, and 9.5 apg over a 14-year career, like Robertson?
By the way; Oscar Robertson would have been considered a Small Forward…. even in today’s NBA.
Before you start slinging around words like “best ever” and revolutionary – perhaps you should try remembering that they played basketball, even before you were born… and there were some extraordinary players that played before 1990….
Oh, and Dr. J never had a pre-game ritual of throwing chalk into the air, and posing like a male model………… hands raised and separated, like he was something special… Barkley would have torn LeBron’s head off…. and Bird would have laughed at LeBaby’s constant whining to the referees.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 19, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wilt and Oscar played in a completely different era
Where the pace was unbelievably fast and the average field goal percentage was in the low 40s. Their per-game averages must be considered accordingly.
And Barkley was quite the whiner to the officials.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Apr 19, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So only
Players that scored 100 points in a game, or averaged a triple double can be revolutionary? When I said revolutionary it doesn’t automatically mean best ever or that no one from the past can compare or anything absurd like that. It just means that he’s taken the league by storm and has done and will continue to do things that very few people have been able to do in the NBA. More importantly, Jordan, Bird, nor Magic were ever able to score 100 points in a game or average a triple double in a season. So by your logic none of them are revolutionary either, correct? Chamberliain was the only one to ever score 100 points in a season as you said, and Robertson was the only one to ever record a triple double season, so to say that Lebron isn’t revolutionary just because he didn’t do the things that Chamberlain and/or Robertson did (obviously the only players to ever do what they did) is a little unfair don’t you think?
Here’s a small list of the things that Lebron has accomplished in the NBA.
One of three players in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists in their rookie season.3
Includes Oscar Robertson and Michael Jordan.
One of five players in NBA history to average over 25 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season.
Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this six times), John Havlicek (achieved this twice), Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan.
One of four players in NBA history to average at least 31 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists in a season.
Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this twice), Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.
One of two players in NBA history to average at least 27 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for five consecutive seasons.
Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this eight consecutive times.
One of two players in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds and 500 assists in a season for at least four times.
Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this six times in his career.
One of three players in NBA history to record a triple-double in their playoff debut.
Includes Johnny McCarthy and Magic Johnson.
2nd place all-time for consecutive 20-point games to start a playoff career with 19.
Behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar’s 27 consecutive games
Most consecutive points scored for a team in a playoff game with 25 straight points.
One of two players in NBA history to win the NBA Player of the Month Award four times in one season.
Tied with Kevin Garnett, who achieved the same in the 2003-04 NBA Season.
One of four players in NBA history to lead their team in all five major statistical categories (points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals) in a season (2008-09 season).
Includes Dave Cowens (1977-78), Scottie Pippen (1994-95) and Kevin Garnett (2002-03).
Notice that most of this is saying that Lebron is only 1 of 2,3,4 or 5 players EVER to do such and such. When you have a player that is only 1 of 5 or less players to ever do something in the NBA then yes you have to consider him revolutionary. Something that you all seem to fail to realize is the fact that he is only 24, in other words a few months older than Nick Young! If he stays healthy he’ll be in the league another 10 years at least. Imagine what damage he could do to all of these records and achievements by the time his career is over. So to look at this list and say that he isn’t revolutionary I’d sure like to know what is. My argument isn’t whether or not Lebron is the best ever (which I never said he was. I said and continue to say that he has the potential to be) my point is that Lebron is most certainly a revolutionary type of player.
Here’s the link to the rest of the achievements Lebron has accomplished
I never though I’d see the day when I actually had to defend Lebron James. I feel… dirty all over. Now I know how it feels to be a Cleveland Cavalier fan I guess. I don’t know about the rest of you but I love these type of discussions.
by bigrm18 on Apr 20, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Link didn't show up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_LeBron_James
Oh, and that’s the perfect portrait of Lebron probably crying to the refs on his Wikipedia achievement page. Did one of you put that pic? : )
by bigrm18 on Apr 20, 2009 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems like Oscar Robertson was LeBron, before LeBron was LeBron
Hardly “revolutionary” if someone else has already done it…. MULTIPLE TIMES…
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 20, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is how
Wikipedia defines revolutionary, “something that has a major, sudden impact on society or on some aspect of human endeavour.” When I said revolutionary I didn’t necessarily mean that Lebron was doing things that no one had ever done before, (even though he has done things that no one else was able to do at his age by being the youngest to score x amount of points in the NBA) I meant that he was doing things that very few people were able to do and affected the entire league when he first arrived in the NBA. You cannot honestly say that Lebron didn’t have a major or sudden impact on the NBA when he came into the league. He most certainly had a major impact on the Wizards the past few years.
by bigrm18 on Apr 20, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace
Didn’t have anywhere near the impact on the league that Lebron had, so to even compare the two is an over exaggeration. Besides, Wallace obviously didn’t live up to, nor did he sustain that revolutionary type of impact that you said he supposedly had. However, Lebron has most certainly lived up to and sustained the impact that he initially had, and will continue to have, on the league.
by bigrm18 on Apr 20, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually it was kind of a joke on my part
Gerald Wallace had a much larger impact on the Wizards for the last 2 years than Lebron. By a long shot.
Think about it.
by MR on Apr 20, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never used "best ever."
I used “revolutionary.” Don’t mischaracterize my argument.
I was using “revolutionary” mostly in the context of the SF/wing position. Your examples are 1) a center, (who was certainly revolutionary in his own right- no dispute from me), and 2) Oscar, a PG (how do argue the Big-O was/would be a SF?). My point still stands. More than 1 or 2 players in the history of the NBA are allowed to be labeled as revolutionary, and we don’t have to 3 decades to label them as such.
I think I will use revolutionary every time I see a player totally redefining the way a position is played or what type of player can play the position. There has never been a point-forward with LeBrons size and particular skill-set, thus to me he is revolutionary. On the other hand, a player like Kobe Bryant does NOT fit my defintion of revolutionary. Kobe is a unique player, certainly, but he doesn’t bring much to the SG position that we haven’t seen before.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Apr 20, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is Oscar Robertson a PG?
At 6’5" and the third tallest on the team…. he was every bit the “Point Forward” that LeBron James is….
An argument could be made that LeBron James, at least on the Offensive side of the ball, is the Point Guard for Cleveland. He handles the ball; initiates the offense; creates for others…. How is that not the definition of a Point Guard?
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 20, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So why disagree with the "revolutionary" assessment?
Yes, both Oscar and LeBron are defined by more than the position they played. LeBron performs many of the duties of a PG, but he does it from the SF position. His role and responsibilities are much different than any other SF in the league. Aguably the combination of his size, skills, and floor responsibilities are different than any SF in league history. Hence, my “revolutionary” label. (Again, I’m accepting suggestions for a less hyperbolic term, but I don’t think it’s an incorrect assessment.) The fact that LeBron, at 6’8’’ 240 lbs plays SF, has the duties of a PG (as you yourself point out), and at times this season has defended every position on the floor, means that it is difficult to pigeonhole him.
Oscar may have had the size of a forward, but like Magic, he played as a guard. He wasn’t a SF who had point guard responsibilities, he was a PG/SG who was built like a forward. Beyond that point, I do think it’s difficult to compare players from different eras – but I don’t think saying that LeBron is revolutionary denigrates Oscar’s amazing legacy in any way. To me, both Oscar and LeBron are incredible talents in their own right, and each is, or was, a revolutionary player.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Apr 20, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just don’t see “revolutionary” either.
He essentially plays the position the same way that Grant Hill and Pippin played it. Probably others I’m not thinking of off the top of my head. Sure he’s “better” than those players. Stronger? Yes. Bigger? Eh, maybe. Smarter? No. Better shooter? No. Better passer? No. Better handle? No.
Where’s the revolution?
by MR on Apr 20, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even the chalk ritual is old and stolen. I saw Garnet do that long ago.
by MR on Apr 20, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about
Wilkins
Bird
Dr. J
Bernard King
Barkley
Pippin
Not exactly the same skill sets, but all in the same ballpark.
Don’t call Lebron “revolutionary” at a position shared by Bird, ’Nique, Dr J and Barkley. That is just showing lack of vision.
by MR on Apr 19, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you
Seriously calling Scottie Pippen more revolutionary than Lebron? Don’t you think that’s a bit much of an exaggeration? Lebron has done some things at the age of 24 that most of the players you listed didn’t even do in their entire career. Now I’m not saying that Lebron is automatically better than those players that you listed, so please don’t say that I did or that I was inferring that when/if you respond. What I’m saying is to compare what those players you listed did in their first 7 years in the league to what Lebron has done. I’m not talking about championships because they obviously had different teammates, I’m talking about individual accomplishments.
by bigrm18 on Apr 20, 2009 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That list supports my point
First of all, I quibble with labeling Barkley a SF – he was much more of a PF.
King, Wilkins, Dr J were innovative, incredible scoring talents, but only Dr J came close to playing the all-around game that LeBron does. Some differences: J was more of a Forward/Guard hybrid than a SF, and Dr J was much smaller than LeBron.
I’m glad you named Pippen and Bird, because, like LBJ, they ALSO were both revolutionary players. Both were great all around players who allowed us to redefine the boundries of the SF position, in terms of size, physical attributes, and individual skills. LeBron is the latest redefinition of the position.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Apr 20, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So your point is that every few years we get a new “revolution” at each position.
That’s not a revolution. That’s a changing of the guard.
by MR on Apr 20, 2009 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
3 players is more like once every 15 years
And honestly, calling Pippen “revolutionary” was too charitable – I actually wouldn’t go that far.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Apr 21, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Explain to me what he has "revolutionized"
How has he changed the way the position is played, thought about etc? I really don’t see a style or strategy change from Hill, Pippin…even Odom.
You keep arguing that because James is big or strong that makes him “revolutionary”. I just don’t see how the two are connected. Sure he is an amazing talent, and perhaps he will go down in the books as one of the greatest SFs ever along with Dr. J, Bird, Baylor, Barry etc. But the position was redefined well before he arrived.
by MR on Apr 21, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even Ignoring his size
I would say that it is because he is a point-forward. He has PG duties and skills even though he is a SF. I know there have been others (Odom and Hill are good examples) called point-forwards, but I don’t think anyone has done it as well as LBJ.
Regardless, you and Rook obviously have a different conception of what “revolutionary” means than I do. That’s fair enough, but when I see LBJ doing things on the court that I’ve never seen a player do before, with a particular combination of skills that I haven’t seen before, in a package (6’8’’ 240) that I haven’t seen before, I don’t think it’s over the line. By revolutionary I mean that he’s an original talent. For example, unlike Kobe (“next MJ”) or Dwight (“next Shaq”) It’s hard to compare him to previous players.
Let’s agree to disagree, and to hate LBJ no matter what his labels are.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Apr 21, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate the guy off the court
But I think y’all are crazy if you wouldn’t rather build a team around LeBron than Dwight Howard.
Think of it this way: would you rather have Michael Jordan or David Robinson?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Apr 18, 2009 12:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But what about MJ or Shaq?
Howard’s first seasons compare favorable to Shaq. Similar EFG% Shaq with the slight edge. Similar TRB%, Howard slight edge. Howard lower usage rate. Howard better D rating, Shaq better O rating. But they are a similar player, and have been compared before. MJ won 6, Shaq won 5. That’s a debate. How is that crazy?
by zeke5123 on Apr 18, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd rather have Shaq than MJ?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Apr 18, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You want to compare best ever - then how about the option to take MJ or Bill Russell?
You build your team around the Center. That position is the lynchpin…. the “center” of the team.
If you have the chance to select a HoF wing player (even MJ or LeBaby), or a potential HoF Center – as a GM you should choose the Center. More teams have won the Championship with a dominant Center than with a Wing…. (Bill Russell, Shaq, Chamberlain, etc)
Say all you want about LeBron…. but he hasn’t proven he can lead a team to a Championship yet. And the only wing player that has, was Michael Jordan….. Until LeBron does it – I’ll stick with my choice; The dominant big man.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 18, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take MJ, no questions asked
Russell was an unbelievable defensive player, the best ever, but he was not a very good offensive player and he had a ton of talent surrounding him. Russell had Cousy, Havlicek, Sam Jones, KC Jones, Bill Sharman, Tom Heinsohn, Frank Ramsey and Don Nelson, among others. That’s the modern equivalent of having Steve Nash, Brandon Roy, Joe Johnson, Ben Wallace circa 2004, Kevin Martin, Danny Granger, Antawn Jamison and Josh Howard on your team (just thinking off the top of my head). Wilt was better, but never had the talent that Russell’s teams had around him. Talent that no team will ever be able to collect right now.
Regardless, this isn’t about wing vs. center, it’s about LeBron vs. Howard. Why take a guy who has yet to accomplish anything David Robinson hasn’t in his career (that’s not a slight, D-Rob was great, but not as good as MJ) over someone who is putting up comporable production to MJ? And before we talk about titles, remember that MJ didn’t win one until he was 28, so while I hate LeBron, that really can’t be used against him.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Apr 18, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I only brought up titles...
because someone here was calling LeBron potentially “greatest player ever”….. Let’s not jump ahead of ourselves…. I can’t even say that he’s the best player in the League, RIGHT NOW. (I’d probably give it to either Kobe or Dwayne Wade)…
If LeBron blows out a knee tomorrow (not that I’d rejoice over something like that); or gets John “hot plate” Williams syndrome – he’d just be the Bo Jackson of Basketball. Aw…. too bad we didn’t get to see more of him; he could have been……………….
The question is….. If I were the GM of an NBA Basketball team, who would I choose to build my franchise around? Hands down, Dwight Howard…. He’s a nice guy, with a good team first attitude. The kind of person you would be proud to be the face of your team. A tremendous defensive presence. And most importantly, he probably won’t leave the team for New York (or New Jersey) at the first opportunity…..
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 18, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Lebaby
Continues to play at the level that he plays at and begins to win championships (something that I didn’t mention at first) then people will probably begin to name him the greatest ever. As I said in a post earlier, Lebron can hit the three, hit the midrange, he can jump out the jam, he can dunk like no other, he can pass with the best of them, he can defend your best player, rebound, post up, and lead his team by example. The league has never seen anyone as strong, yet as fast as Lebron.
Name a player that has ever done all of those things as well as Lebron. I would say Jordan and Kobe come closest off the top of my head. Yes, the difference between these players is the championships but Kobe and Jordan didn’t do it alone. Remember when Jordan scored 63 against the Celtics but the Bulls still lost? Also, how many rings does Kobe have after Shaq? Steve kerr has 5 rings and Charles Barkley has none. Will Kerr go down as a better player than Barkley? You cannot automatically judge a player based on the amount of rings he has. Obviously Kobe, Jordan and Lebaby have had completely different teams so it’s not a perfect comparison, especially when you bring up championships.
by bigrm18 on Apr 18, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really judge players based on Championships....
however, before we crown LeBron “greatest player ever”, let’s let his career play out…. if he ends up with zero (0) Championships, then I’d have to say that both MJ and Kobe have the edge….
The question still remains…
If YOU were the Owner of an NBA Franchise – and you were going to shell out Hundreds of Millions of dollars – Which player would you want to be the face of your team – the player that you market – the player that you want associated with your product? LeBron, with his incredible hystronics, me-first attitude, incredible ego and swelled-head? Or Howard, who is a genuinely nice kid with tremendous talent and a team-first attitude. (You never hear Dwight Howard talk about himself in the 3rd person)….
For that kind of money, and that kind of exposure; don’t think I could ignore the fact that LeBron is a “terrible human being” (as Zeke said in his original post).
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 18, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now - if you're just talking about a Fantasy team....
Statistics only…. then give me LeBron – he fills up more stat categories than Howard does…
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 18, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said
That he would become the greatest player ever, and I’m hoping he doesn’t, what I was saying that he has the tools to become the greatest, Howard doesn’t. I know that Lebron does many things that makes him seem like he’s all about himself, but if you look at the Cavs’ pregame rituals (even though I’m highly against it) you’ll see that Lebron interacts with the starters just as much as he interacts with the 15th man on the bench. When Lebron’s sitting on the bench and one of his teammates scores he’ll get up and celebrate for them. They’ll do the same for him if he has one of his break away dunks (we all saw this last time we faced the Cavs) If he was that much of an egoist and/or if his teammates didn’t like him, they wouldn’t be up cheering and dancing every time he does something emphatic. I hate to admit this but the Cavs are a good team, huge emphasis on team. If any of the players on the Cavs gets injured during the game, all of the players, including Lebron, gets up off the bench and sees if their teammate is OK. This is something the Wizards don’t even do.
Also, Lebron passes about as well as anyone in the league, and passes without hesitancy. Remember when he passed to Damon Jones for the game winner instead of taking it himself against the Wizards? So he may do “me” things, but he also does the “us” things. Plus, if all of his teammates say that he is great (which is all I’ve heard them say) then he must be doing something right.
Most importantly, how many commercials have you seen of Dwight Howard, and only Howard? However, we’ve all seen several different commercials starring Lebron. All of the commercials exhibiting a product that sold well because of Lebron. Companies would unquestionably favor Lebron over Howard if they had to sell something. I guarantee if Lebron and Howard were both trying to convince us to buy insurance from two different up and coming companies, the insurance Lebron was marketing would sell a lot more than Howard’s. Just look how much money companies have paid Lebron and how much they’ve paid Howard to be in their commercials. Or you can look at how many Lebron jerseys were sold compared to Howard’s.
Also, Lebron resurrected the Cavalier franchise by himself when they were in the dumps. Howard’s a great player but people don’t pay money just to see him play like they do for Lebron. Amway Arena after Howard gathered more of a crowd but it doesn’t compare to Quicken Loans Arena after Lebron.
So, yes Lebron is an annoying and terrible person, but you cannot deny that Lebron sells whatever he advertises better than anyone in the NBA. Therefore I would have Lebron as the face of my franchise well before Howard.
Sorry about typing all of that but I can get a little excited I guess :)
by bigrm18 on Apr 18, 2009 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
So your franchise can have LeBron – and, as the Owner, you can cringe every time he talks about himself in the 3rd person… and you, as the Owner, can worry about whether he will jump the fence for greener pastures (New York)…. and you, the Owner, can handle the PR nightmare when he does leave for New York/New Jersey….
As an Owner of a rival city, I’ll build my franchise around Dwight Howard. And I’ll be proud when he genuinely cares about the community he and I live in. I’ll never worry about him as the face of my franchise. And the only worry I’ll have is finding and paying enough quality players to surround Dwight to make our club a contender.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 18, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We're now conflating "who is easier to root for"
With “who is a better player.”
Fans care about winning, not personality.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Apr 18, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, what is the Queston?
If I am the owner of an NBA franchise, who would I build my team around? Howard….
If I’m picking in a Fantasy League? LeBron James.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 18, 2009 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean
When a franchise chooses someone to build around, presumably they are trying to win. So while all this stuff about Howard’s personality is nice, it’s so ancillary to the point. Fans want to see a winner.
So if you are an owner of a franchise, you build around the player who gives you the best chance to win. On the court. The off-court stuff takes care of itself.
It makes no sense to put much weight in someone’s personality. Cleveland fans don’t care that LeBron’s a jerk. They’re just happy they’re winning.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Apr 18, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they were losing, I think they would think he's a jerk
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Apr 18, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But those Cleveland sports fans are notoriously loyal
Poor saps will probably start rooting for the Knicks once Lebron signs there.
by MR on Apr 18, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where do you come off claiming that Lebron is a horrible person? Im not a fan of Lebron, to be honest, I hate the guy, simply because he’s killed us enough times and your going to hate your rival teams best player. Just the way it goes.
But for you to say that hes a horrible person? How can you even come to the conclusion? Because he whines at the refs? All players do, and all big players do, you just choose to single out Lebron because we watch him more than those other players. Lebron is light years ahead of Howard, and if you would honestly choose Howard over Lebron, then I honestly wouldn’t know what to say.
Your point may be slightly valid if Lebron was some cancer thats ruining locker rooms and getting into gang violence outside. He whines, so what, it’ll piss us off cause we’ve learned to hate him. You take Howard off Orlando, and you don’t have a 3rd seed team, but you still have a playoff team. You take Lebron off Cleavland and you’re looking at lottery.
LOL, Howard over Lebron. Thats funny. Hate the guy all you want, but don’t be ignorant and make him look like some cancer.
by Team Serbia on Apr 20, 2009 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
the same could be said for Cleveland
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Apr 20, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You really think so
With Jameer Nelson, Rashard Lewis, Hedo and one of the best backup centers in the league replacing Howard in the lineup (Gortat?).
They’re better than Philly and Detroit for sure without Howard.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Apr 20, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They’re better than Philly and Detroit for sure without Howard.
Ironic timing for that comment since Philly beat them despite 31-16 from Howard last night!
You’ve no doubt watched more Magic than I this season, so I’ll take your judgement to heart. But It seems like those guys are all spare parts without the man in the middle making it happen. Really Nelson, Lewis, and Turk seem worse than say NJ (Harris, Carter, Lopez).
by MR on Apr 20, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is one reason why LeBron is a "horrible" person.
Okay, maybe not evil of all evils, but I say calling him a jerk is totally supportable and acceptable.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Apr 20, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This happens every year
A few years ago, Dwayne Wade was the next MJ after putting up an amazing season with a championship. Kobe was the next MJ. Every year we see the next MJ. There can only be one. History has shown us that.
by zeke5123 on Apr 18, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand the D-rob comprassion
When his body type, playing style, and statistic seem more in-line with Shaq. And as for Shaq versus MJ, there is one title difference. The answer there is it doesn’t matter. Both were incredibly dominant. But who is more likely to reach level of MJ/Shaq? Take the big man. history is on his size. Scarcity is on his side.
And the question asked on ESPN sorry if I didn’t explain it well was if you were starting a team and had one pick, every nba player in a fantasy draft, who do you pick? And as far as team construction goes, Center v. Wing does matter. Now you can claim Lebron is so much better than Howard he overcomes that Center v. Wing postional adjustment, but I disagree. Dwight Howard has put up similar numbers to Shaq’s first four years. That’s doing something. And call me a homer, but I take CP3 over LeTravel, but not over Howard.
by zeke5123 on Apr 18, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just off the top of my head
I’d take Shaq, MJ, Bird, Magic, Duncan in their primes over James.
Would consider Akeem, Isiah, Kobe, Wade, Garnet, Dr. J,
by MR on Apr 18, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a ton of championships
In that first group. In that group overall. Yeah, I’m not positive a Wade wouldn’t be in play. I mean he was dominat in a different way two years ago, and is getting back to that level.
by zeke5123 on Apr 19, 2009 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously.
I couldn’t agree with you any more. Phil Jackson was just fucking with Lebron’s head
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk
by hibachi on Apr 19, 2009 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea - Lebron is the clear cut favorite imho
And I honestly believe he is in a whole other league than Howard.
When you can choose from a potentially all-time greatest player, there is no other choice. True, Howard anchors your interior defense in a way Lebron couldn’t, but Lebron has the best intangibles in the league. He’s also the hardest to defend against in the league, with no weakness.
I’m spiteful against him as a Wiz fan, but I honestly believe his was one of the best individual seasons ever. Look at the team he has around him. No other GREAT players – all very good and skilled players, but no great ones. This has to prove he truly makes his teammates better. The true intangible skill. 39-2 at home is sick too.
Dear Diary, JACKPOT!!!!!!!!!!
by Evander holyfield on Apr 18, 2009 12:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
All of the above
Bullets Forever: A blog dedicated to the Washington Wizards with analysis, commentary, and more YouTube videos than your eyes can handle.
by JakeTheSnake on Apr 18, 2009 10:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If I'm the NY Knicks GM
I’ll just take BOTH
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 18, 2009 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
LeBron No DOUBT
Haven’t read any of ya’ll’s arguments…..doesn’t matter.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
by Truth About It on Apr 18, 2009 10:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh by the way
Thank God that the Cavs lost at home and didn’t tie that record.
If they had the “record” I would have been PISSED every time that was mentioned, having to think back to the Xmas ref debacle. The Wiz won that game. It was handed to the Cavs. To have that be a part of NBA history…
by MR on Apr 18, 2009 10:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is easy
It has to be LeBron. And I have seen no evidence of him being a terrible teammate – in fact all I ever hear about is how wonderful he is to play with.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
by ledellforlife on Apr 20, 2009 10:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well one thing can be said about LeBron James
He certainly brings out a spirited debate….
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
by Rook6980 on Apr 21, 2009 12:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
