Time for EG to go?
by Sean Fagan on Dec 7, 2009 1:40 PM EST
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I will keep this brief as I want to hear the opinions of the community rather than yet again get on my hobby horse about how I think EG isn't running the Wizards effectively. However, one thing that has become a noted concern is EG's predilection to acquire players who he thinks fit the team rather than player's that would benefit the coach's system. The acquisition of Boykins (though I love him), again points to a GM who rather have it his way, instead of acquiring a more tradition PG that could better execute Flip's system.
A more personal belief is that with the likely change in ownership, we could reasonably expect a big move from EG as he would want to retain his job under a new administration. My personal belief is that if Leonsis does acquire the team, we can expect to see the appointment of a more modern GM like Daryl Morey.
Opinions? I tend to be hard on EG because i enjoyed the EJ era so much and he never seemed to give his coach they players he wanted to achieve the desired result. However, there have also been spotty draft choices, questionable trades, and a FA acquisition or two that need to be called into question.
(and yes, Caron was steal. But EG can't ride that one forever)
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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EG isn't perfect
or maybe even great, but I think if you want to talk about replacing him then you need to find some legit candidates. Someone asked me in an earlier thread whether I was ready to go back to pre-Gilbert days if we blew it up and I guess I can pose the same question to you: Are you ready to go back to Jordan’s golf course management or Wes (who was clearly one of the historically terrible GMs).
I’m with you on acquiring a more modern-type GM like Morey. I love how he thinks outside the box (though one could argue that statistics put him in a different box).
I wish
I knew more about up and coming GM’s to make specific recommendations. Guys like Presti and Morey are those who come to mind. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a sea change in the NBA where teams are hiring assistant GM’s from competent franchises, much like everyone picks over the Patriots and Steelers.
No, I wouldn’t go back to the days of Big Wes or MJ, but those were two historically terrible GM’s. Wes proved that you can’t run a team like a Mom and Pop shop, and MJ proved that you have to, you, know, be in the office at least twice a week.
I think a change in GM’s would bring about several badly needed changes. First, I would hope to see an upgrade in the medical staff. I find it hard to believe that the Wizards are not impacted in FA/Player acquisition when it is well known throughout the league that Wizards players go on the shelf and stay there.
I’m still on board with the trade for Foye and Miller. But the more I consider it, I am coming to agree with Mike’s point that we have too many chiefs and too few Indians. EG seems to only land glue guys by accident, or acquires ones who are then misused in his coaches system. (see Ruffin, Michael, Songalia, Darius)
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
I think finding a Morey type is easier than finding another franchise player
There are guys out there – I’d have to go into my brain to find them.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Ya, there have to be
lots of sports obsessed brilliant math geeks out there who have some business acumen. Morey and Presti appear to be particularly good, but they are just the first wave.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 7, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
There's Tom Penn out in Portland, for example
Dean Oliver in Denver, etc. Nearly every good team has someone like that (I think six out of the eight final teams in the playoffs last year employ at least one stat guy).
Just off the top of my head.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Let Me Guess
The Wizards do not employ even one stats guy?
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
I talked to Ernie about this early in the season
He says they use “some services,” whatever that means. He’s not a stat guy at all.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
you then have to question the value that EG is getting for his signings
I think the first Stevenson signing was great, but we then over commit to a contract with him just so that Gil could have some “stability” at SG. We sign Jamison to a ridiculous contract and we offer an injured player a max value contract.
On the other hand I look at the Rockets and see the value that they get from their team for their price..
Brooks $1.1 – 2 years
Hayes $2.1 – 1 year
Scola $3.2 – 1 year
Lowry $2.0 – 1 year
Landry$3.0 – 1 year
The man is a roster virtuoso.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
To be fair, Brooks and Lowry are still on rookie contracts
The others though – for sure. Though it helps that San Antonio was giving away Scola.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
But they have gotten just as far as
the wizards have in the post season. Who cares how much he is paying them as long as they win. The last two champions had payrolls in the top five both years. What does a cost cutting GM get us but the second round which Ernie has all ready done.
The last two champions
1) The Lakers won the championship b/c they had Gasol delivered to them on a platter.
2) The Celtics acquire 2/3 of their Big 3 was maximizing all their assets.
The Rockets also have been as screwed as we have been injury wise re: Yao.
Its not cost cutting – its flexibility. Both those teams have a lot of good, cheap pieces and can be players on the FA market. The Wizards have pieces that are great in the fact that they are expiring, but certainly don’t have the flexibility that either of those two teams have.
Would you rather have a maxed Gilbert, an overpaid AJ, and Caron or Durant, Westbrook and Green for peanuts?
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Your not really
laying out all the details when you refer to OKC. Durant was the #2 overall, Westbrook was #4, and Jeff green was #5. Only one of those did he trade for. Now I give him credit for picking the proper players but EG has also shown a pretty good acumen in the draft. Also there all for peanuts because there on there rookie contracts. Get back to me when he has to re-up all of them two to three years from now. If he pulls that then he will be in an elite class.
Its all about maximizing
July 20 2007
Traded a future conditional second-round pick and cash to the Phoenix Suns for forward Kurt Thomas and the first-round picks of 2008 and 2010.
February 20 2008
Traded forward Kurt Thomas to the San Antonio Spurs for guard Brent Barry, center Francisco Elson and a 2009 first-round pick.
Traded forward Chris Wilcox to the New York Knicks for forward Malik Rose and cash; traded a conditional 2009 first-round pick to the Chicago Bulls for guard Thabo Sefolosha.
Traded guards Chucky Atkins and Damien Wilkins to the Minnesota Timberwolves for forward Etan Thomas, a 2010 second-round pick and a 2010 conditional second-round pick.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Your taking teams at two different points
EG did the exact same thing when he got to DC. trading for jamison wooing Gilbert as a FA. Turning one of the hugest bust in NBA draft history into butler. Finding blatche,taser in the second round. OKC will be at the same point two to three years from now the Wiz were at last year. Who to re-up, max, or let go. Like I said in my last post when he pulls that off then we can compare apples to apples.
When has EG
ever kept flipping assets for more future draft picks? Presti, with the exception of Ray Allen, has never traded an amazing player to completely stock his team.
I mean – CASH and a second round pick for two first round picks and Kurt Thomas? Then turning Thomas into another 1st round pick. It gives Presti a HUGE margin for error when drafting.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
But look at their salary structure
They don’t have to reup anyone for two years, and by then, all they have on their roster is rookie contract. Nobody else has any long-term salary.
Presti has plenty of breathing room to sign these guys and stay under the luxury tax.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Look at there record the last four years
They blew the team up halfway through the 2005-2006 season. Since then he shipped out every veteran for picks or salary dumps. Which I agree he has made some smart moves. The last four years ( 35, 31 , 20, 23 ) there fans have been putting up with very substandard even awful basketball. Sucking really bad for a couple years in a row drafting a whole bunch of rookies is not some new strategy. Are you ready as a wizard fan to go through four years of win totals like that on the hope that in the end this new mythical GM has built us a financially sound yet quality basketball talent roster?
after 19 wins?
with an albatross contract like Arenas’?
yes.
My main point, which I’m not swaying from, is that EG hasn’t been an astounding GM. He has been competent, yes, but not great. If you gave me the choice between EG and a guy who said, “hey I can turn Randy Foye/Nick Young into three first round draft picks,” then I would hire the second guy every time.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Well, I don't know
It depends on what happens the rest of this season.
But I do think Presti is better than EG because he punted on that team (admittedly after two non-playoff performances), and Morey is better than both for upgrading his team while still contending every year.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
i'm liking ccrun more every day
presti might be better than EG, but to me that misses the point. i don’t think it’s wise to pick out the best 2 or 3 GMs in the NBA and assume we can come up with that guy, or compare EG to that guy and say we come up short. EG has done a good job on the whole.
even pritchard, he doesn’t look so great right now with the oden pick. and some of his other hot targets… it’s unclear whether they will pan out. if i’m a houston fan, i like that we’re winning 50 games, but i don’t really have much hope that we’ll turn the corner anytime soon. and i’m glad we don’t have brian colangelo in here right now. rc buford has done a good job, but he got fricking lucky landing duncan.
did leonsis inherit mcphee? i believe leonsis hasn’t changed gms during his entire tenure as the caps owner. i still don’t see why teddy L would want to can EG.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 8, 2009 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
I agree that EG has by and large done pretty well
I’m just saying I don’t want EG there to rebuild his own mess. For one, he has proven to be a terrible GM at rebuilding – he’s come into every situation (NY, MIL) trying to get good quick, and then stay the course with moves that take you further from rebuilding. For another, even if he wasn’t historically bad at rebuilding and being patient, I’d think he’d be wedded to the guys he got, when in reality those are the very guys that need to be purged.
Maybe we turn things around and don’t have to rebuild. But if we do, I think there needs to be a new voice and a new approach in there. The name of the guy in charge isn’t as important as finding someone with a new way of thinking. Hell, you could even give Tommy Sheppard the job and just have him hire a bunch of stat guys and rebuild that way.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
in terms of patience
EG has been plenty patient with this roster. so he has the ability to be patient. and rebuilding through the draft doesn’t always work out.
however, if we do get to the point where we have to “rebuild”, i can see your point that someone else should do it, but i’m just not at the point where i think we need to blow this thing up.
and yes, EG did leave milwaukee in tatters, but i think herb kohl had something to do with that and that’s discounting the success EG had in both NY and MIL with good playoff teams. as for the Knicks, it’s a damn good bet that NY fans wish they still had ernie.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 8, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
The reason they would want Ernie back is that Scott Layen and Isiah Thomas were like EG on steroids with their lack of rebuilding
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
that's bush league
so now EG is scott layden and isiah thomas? who knows what EG would have done if he didn’t get canned or if he didn’t leave the bucks. when EG got to DC it was a total mess.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 8, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
No, no, I'm saying Layden and Thomas are way worse
I’m also saying part of the affinity Knicks fans may have for EG is because his successors were way worse.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
actually
Knick fans have some terrible memories of EG. If you listen to podcasts run by Knick fans (Disciples of Clyde ect.) you don’t hear a lot of good things being said about his tenure.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
maybe that is influencing our opinions of EG
the knicks fans i know like him.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 8, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
I can definitely see the point that you and ccrun are making
I just think that the league is evolving, and that EG may be too old school to adapt with the changes. Billy Beane isn’t necessarily a genius, but he paved for statistical use in the front office by obtaining players that the market did not value. Now, some of the heirs to that throne have shown the limitations of statistics, such as JP RIccardi in Toronto, but the use of statistics as part of and objective analysis is considered par for the course in the MLB.
While I don’t expect the Wizards to be ahead of the curve on this front, I don’t like the pig headed, old school nature of the current regime. I would like to see him adapt to the times, because by not doing so, I have the sneaking suspicion that we are missing out on some great deals.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
well
teddy L probably will demand that the wiz staff be on the cutting edge, so i think you’ll be in good shape there.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 8, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
to add to Mike's point
Look at Kevin Pritchard in Portland -
http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/kevin_pritchard.htm
A team that is farther along than OKC, but plenty of money to resign Roy, Aldridge, ect.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
The Rockets win totals the past three seasons
51, 55, 53.
The Wizards? 41, 43, 19.
Major difference. The playoffs argument is, frankly, dumb – they’ve had one of their stars injured in every single playoff series the last two years. Last year, they won two playoff games despite having both stars injured. They also played far better teams in the playoffs. In 05, the Wizards played a Bulls team missing two starters and barely got by them, then got destroyed by the Heat. In 08, the Rockets beat Portland, who had the second-best point differential in the West. They then took the NBA champ to seven games. In 08, they had no Yao, but still challenged a Utah team that challenged the Lakers in the next round. They should have won in 07, but that was just as Morey took the job.
And salary cap management matters, even for teams who have large payrolls. Knowing how to capitalize on your asssts and cash in is a skill. It requires some luck, sure, but it’s a skill. LA and Boston won because they put themselves in position to capitalize. The NBA prevents you from just spending money. You have to move current money for future money, expiring money for money in the form of better players, etc.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Morey has done an awesome job with Houston
But the topic of OKC and the path they took got me thinking. So Morey has this fifty win team but by winning he is denying himself the early picks he needs to really put a dominate team on the floor. Don’t get me wrong Houston is a good team but they get by more on grit hustle and determination. They pretty much start five role players. What was the last team to roll out a line up similar to Houston and have some real success come play off time? I am just posing the question which guy has taken the better route in re shaping his team?
It gives Morey the flexibility
to see what pieces fit, use those to grab superstars, with enough flexibility to be able to say every year “I could make a run at this A List superstar” if I wanted to. The Rockets could legitemately make a run a LeBron if they wanted, though I think they know they won’t be able to due to flexible cap space. It also allows them to trump teams like the Wizards come trade time because they can not only offer a large expiring like McGrady, but also be able to add value with player like Landry ect.
It wouldn’t stun me to see the Rockets make a run at Bosh or another player come this summer.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
A couple things
1. The Rockets have a star – Yao Ming. Yeah, he’s brittle and injury-prone, but when healthy, he’s a legit franchise cornerstone. It’s not fair to say he just has a bunch of hustle guys, because the superstar is hurt.
2. The Rockets don’t have outright cap room, but they have several sign-and-trade assets this season next summer. They, like the Wizards, can raise the value of their expiring contracts and ship them off for a piece like Bosh at the deadline. They also have expiring contracts for 2011.
I do agree that there is a bit of a concern that Morey overvalues his metrics, but from listening to him, I think he’s pretty grounded and understands they don’t cover everything. I also think he’s waiting to use his pieces for something big, kind of like what Boston did with getting Garnett.
I’m not sure who, but somebody.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Which has been the knock on Pritchard
all those assets, and he never made a move.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
What has Morey done for the Rockets
that EG already hasn’t done for us.
However, there have also been spotty draft choices, questionable trades, and a FA acquisition or two that need to be called into question.
Please find me a GM with a spotless record. For that matter find me a GM who gets more right than he does wrong.
Basketball has one of the most simplistic winning formulas there is. Find a star or two and keep plugging away with placing different players around your star(s) till you find a winning combo and stick with it.
Built a competive team
of low cost players despite losing his two stars? Effectively analyze unappreciated talent? Maximize his assets?
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
where are Morey's or Presti's spotty draft choices or FA acquisitions?
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
For Presti, Kristic was a bit odd
and I’m not sure Harden looks so stellar given that Tyreke Evans looks great, Brandon Jennings has been great, and Steph Curry is probably better than Harden. That said, you can argue that Harden fit with their team better.
I think that the Tyson Chandler trade would have been bad and he was saved from that through no act of his own.
Morey has been very savvy though. Trying to think of some of his decisions that I disagree with. Maybe taking Taylor instead of Blair.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 7, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
I thought the Harden pick was interesting
b/c he was selecting a player who fits the system and who wouldn’t take the ball out out of Durant’s hands, which arguably both Jennings and Evans would have.
We also have failed to mention RC Buford, who always seems to nail it. Can we pluck anyone from the San Antonio front office?
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Kristic for the MLE for three years in the middle of the season was an excellent move
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I'm not so sure
They needed a big and that’s not too bad of a contract, but I’m not too high on him.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 7, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
I feel like bigs never come cheap, so getting an okay one for the MLE strikes me as good value
He also expires just in time for them to find someone better.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
None of these guys have won a championship
It’s all about stars in the NBA. These guys have built nice teams, but not really championship teams. The best opportunity is OKC because of Durant.
I think that EG should be given more than one season with his hand pick coach. I also think last summer’s trade was brilliant because it has a fail safe. If the trade didn’t catapult the team, it would allow us to dismantle it because of the contracts were expiring.
I just mentioned this in the Trade Caron post, but we should really consider moving Jamison, Butler and Deshawn for expirings. We will be about $26 million under the cap and have enough room to sign a max deal player and re-up Haywood.
A new GM would start from scratch anyway. We’d be better off trying to upgrade at best player rather than change GM and have the new guy inherit a coach again.
by gorebd on Dec 7, 2009 4:07 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
but their plans
haven’t come to fruition yet. Durant is going to be a superstar in the league and arguably already is. They have great, young, cheap players surrounding him, and have a lot of cap flexibility to add another piece.
This was supposed to be a year to forget for the Rockets, with both McGrady and Yao out. Instead, you again see a team with very nice assets that is competing every night and winning their share of games.
I’m not sure if there is neccessarily a “right” way to build a team. But if you look at the Cav’s for example, you have to question their decision to surround him with overpriced aging pieces when they could have acquired young, cheap players to grow with him like OKC is doing with Durant.
The only reason that I didn’t lose my mind with the Rubio situation and would still be against drafting him rather than Miller/Foye is that by that point, Arenas and Jamison were already sunk cost.
Trading Jamison and Butler is pretty much starting over, no matter how you look at it. Right now, we aren’t even a playoff team for a myriad of reasons.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Trading caron and antawn would only be starting over if
We can’t land a max deal guy. If we can’t then decide who we want to bring back from the current roster, but we’d be in more of a position to rebuild in a OKC or Houston fashion. Especially if we can get a draft pick in the Caron deal.
I think I’d be much happier if we scrap the Big 3 and miss swinging for the fences. We’d have the cap room to go after a restricted free agent. Or wait til 2011 free agency.
EG wanted to give the Big 3 one more go since everyone was healthy. Doesn’t look like its working so lets move on.
i'm not up in arms at the moment
so i’m fine with staying the course through the end of the year.
i don’t think EG deserves to get fired right now
i still think things are likely to turn around.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 7, 2009 4:10 PM EST reply actions
Just a bit more to chew on
EG has always struck me as a follow the market/league kinda guy
- Overpay for Bigs? – Thomas, Etan
- Draft Unknown/barely scouted Euros? – Pech
- Max Contract? – Gil
- Potential not production? – Young, Nick
Of course there was the heist of Caron, the drafting of Blatche, and initial trade for AJ
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Don't forget
The ridiculously good contract he got on Blatche.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 7, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
It helped that Blatche got arrested which completely drove down his value
I think EG got lucky on that one.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Ya, I know
I’ve made several jokes about that before :P
by Manimal Smith on Dec 7, 2009 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
I don't even necessarily mean this as a critique
except in the fact that EG isn’t blazing new trails as a GM. He will adopt a practice if it works, but besides that I don’t see any outside the box thinking.
That was why I was so stoked about Flip and his Ipod Touches.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
This would be a prime opportunity to . . .
beat the DeJuan Blair horse again. That and the Pecherov draft choice were the two most indefensible, tear-your-hair out moves he’s made (Gil and AJ’s deals were defensible). He might still make something out of these expiring contracts the Wizards have. If he lets them expire (as he did frustratingly with AJ) then I will be a little more upset.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Dec 7, 2009 7:16 PM EST reply actions
Letting those contracts expire would be the best thing
If we could also get expirings in exchange for CB and AJ. Summer 2010 is a big reset button. Teams are going to catapult their status and we should be trying to do the same.
This summer is overhyped
A few big moves will inevitably happen, but mostly little will change and teams will destroy themselves fighting over scraps.
Even if all of the big names change teams, there are only so many game changing stars who will be FAs. The rest of the teams are going to over pay because they have cap space and need to show their fans that they are trying.
I’d like to avoid being one of those teams and I think Gil’s contract assures that. Having some cap room wouldn’t hurt, but a max free agent singing that makes sense is unlikely so I am more afraid of a max free agent signing that doesn’t make sense.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 7, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
It's so tough to tell what happens in 2010
I tend to side with Manimal – it’s much ado about nothing (well, not nothing), too much demand, not enough supply – but it’s so unprecedented that anything could happen. It could very easily turn out more like gorebd says.
I just feel like a lot of teams are going to leave 2010 disappointed. Teams like New Jersey, Chicago, etc. I can respect a plan to enter the 2010 sweepstakes, but I can’t fully endorse it because I don’t want to be disappointed.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
i think ernie had to live within some tough realities imposed by abe. he just never complained. i may be wrong, but i really think so. he is a good gm…who are you going to get that is better ??? and landing flip saunders to come here was a coup.
by les boulez bomber on Dec 8, 2009 1:42 AM EST reply actions
EG & The Big Three
EG’s legacy will be retaining the Big 3 in it’s present form. Once he signed Areanas – which I think he needed to do for both basketball and business reasons the next question was what to put around him.
I believe Antwawn was untradeable because he was a Pollin favorite. That left Caron as the only viable trade option – and the number 5 pick. Now that ship has sailed and trying to trade anyone on this roster will seem like a desperate move and will not return good value.
In addition the signing of Miller and Foye was another move to support the Big Three with depth.
To date none of these things have worked out.
Hindsight tells us we should have worked harder to make the Stoudemire deal even if it meant parting with Caron, Jammison the number 5 pick etc.
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