Trading Caron
by Manimal Smith on Dec 6, 2009 9:09 PM EST
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PrintI'd like to brain storm how we can ship him out of town without other teams realizing its a fire sale.
Prada through out an idea in the Piston's recap thread about trading him to Houston for Battier and Lowry. I suggested that we try to get cap relief too by including Stevenson and Prada suggested getting Brian Cook's expiring contract.
So one idea is:
Butler + Stevenson for Battier, Lowry and Cook
I think we can probably do better (maybe we can get a better young PG prospect or a similar package with a draft pick included) so I'd like to see what other people can come up with.
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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Okay, I'll get the ball rolling
To clarify first – at least in my mind, this isn’t supposed to imply that everything is Caron’s fault. That’s hardly true. It’s just that, of the Big 3, he’s probably the easiest to move. He has the shortest contract and I think he has a good reputation around the league. Nobody’s taking Gilbert, and I don’t think there will be as many teams willing to take Jamison’s long-term deal. But by all means, try thinking of trades for either.
In my mind, a Butler trade can’t just be a salary dumb. We need to get back guys who can help us this year. I’d like to also get back either a good young player (one who can play now) or cap relief. Maybe both.
Here are a couple ideas I have:
-Butler and Stevenson to Charlotte for Gerald Wallace and Flip Murray: Gives us a more defensive-minded guy, albeit one with a long contract. Stevenson for Murray gives us slight cap relief.
-Butler, Stevenson and Crittenton to the Clippers for Marcus Camby, Rasual Butler and Sebastian Telfair. Clippers get a small forward upgrade, we cut some money and get a solid vet in Camby and a point guard in Telfair.
-Butler and Crittenton to Milwaukee for Luke Ridnour, Kurt Thomas and Luc Richard Mbah a Moute – We get a good backup PG in Ridnour, a solid vet in Thomas and a young prospect in Mbah a Moute while cutting money, while Milwaukee gets more scoring.
-Butler and Stevenson to Minnesota for Brian Cardinal, Ramon Sessions and Corey Brewer – I don’t like Brewer’s game much, but I love Sessions and Cardinal is expiring.
-Butler and Stevenson to New Orleans for Morris Peterson, Darius Songaila and Darren Collison. Actually, this trade sucks. Forget it.
-Buler and Stevenson to Philadelphia for Andre Iguodala – Eddie Jordan probably wants a guy who can play in the Princeton, and Iguodala is an excellent defender and great in transition. Basically, trade two guys who don’t fit in the new styles of their coach.
-Butler and Foye to Sacramento for Kevin Martin and Sergio Rodriguez. Sacramento cuts long-term money and gets a SF upgrade, while we get a SG who better fits the offensive system.
Just some ideas I have.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
We should absolutely do a salary dump and join the 2010 Free Agent melee
Simple deal. Trade away Butler and Jamison. Deal them to Houston for T-Mac. Maybe even buyout McGrady.
WAS gets:
Tracy McGrady – 23.2 mil
Brian Cook – 3.5 mil
Total: 25.7 mil
HOU gets:
Antawn Jamison – 11.6 mil
Caron Butler – 9.8 mil
Deshawn Stevenson – 3.9 mil
Total: 25.3 mil
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5314802
If we dump Caron, Jamison and Deshawn, we will go into 2010 Free Agency with about $28 million on the payroll (Arenas, Blatche, Young, McGee, 1st & 2nd round picks). With the cap expected to be somewhere around $53 million, we will have enough to sign a max player and maybe re-sign Haywood.
Having a Arenas, Haywood, two athletic young bigs, and some other young talent is more enticing than what other teams can offer. We would be the team with cap space that has the best player already on the roster. The DC market would also be appealing and the opportunity to join the Leonsis organization would be another perk. Look at what that organization has done for Ovechkin and Arenas as far as marketing goes.
And now the out of control statement….Let’s woo Lebron.
Or maybe we'd be better off with a couple fo smaller deals
Maybe move Jamison and Deshawn for an expiring. Then move Caron for an expiring and a draft pick. I saw someone mention Milwaukee. With Joe Alexander flopping, they need a SF and Caron is from Wisconsin.
MIL gets:
Caron Butler – 9.8 mil
WAS gets:
Luke Ridnour – 6.5 mil
Hakim Warrick – 3.0 mil
Protected Draft Pick
Not sure why Houston does that
They don’t need Jamison with Scola and Landry already there at power forward. That’s easily their strongest position.
If cutting cap is the goal, I think you’d have to move Jamison off to another team. Maybe Cleveland for Z and Hickson.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Houston was just an idea
I figured they might be interested in adding some scorers. But like I said after that. Ship Caron to Milwaukee for expirings and a draft pick. Maybe tack Deshawn onto that deal. So we send Deshawn and Caron for Ridnour, Kurt Thomas and Joe Alexander.
Shipping Jamison for an expiring is harder to figure out, but I’m sure we can find a deal if its straight Antawn for expiring money. Maybe Utah will trade us Boozer just so they don’t let him walk away for free. Maybe Portland or the Clippers have interest because of Oden and Griffin injuries.
Worth thinking about (other than the LeBron part)
I really think we can dump Antawn for expirings if we want. That deal was there last year and I’m sure it will be there this year.
It is amazing to realize how flexible we are right now. Other than Gilbert’s contract and Deshawn’s contract we ether have expiring deals or players who are appropriately paid (Butler), underpaid (Blatche) or only slightly overpaid (Jamison). We have a TON of expiring deals yourself so we have the capacity to either dump as you say or turn expirings into better players.
if we really do salary dump, then I’d like to see us get good young players back for Butler at least.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 7, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
Why not Lebron?
The contenders for him are basically the Knicks, Nets, Cleveland, and Miami. The Knicks and Nets will be good for his pockets, but they’re terrible and have a lack of talent. If he doesn’t win with Cleveland now, then I think he’ll leave.
He might go to Miami, but that’s all dependent on them signing 2 max deal guys. Here he can let Gil be his Pippen. He has someone he can be comfortable passing to for the game winner.
As far as the organization goes, we will have a great owner in Leonsis, a good coach, a proven GM. He’ll be in the same organization as Ovechkin, which provides a lot of marketing opportunities. It’s a great city for him to expand his relationships and interests outside of basketball. The second most wealthy African American woman is a minority owner. There are politicians, media, rabid fans. He’s seen an entire arena boo and taunt him. He knows that same arena will cheer him and then taunt Wade/Kobe/etc. This would be a great option for Lebron.
If you just don’t like Lebron, get over it. He’s unquestionably one of the top 3 players in the league.
Oh, and he can do the one thing Michael Jordan couldn't
Bring a championship to DC. These guys have huge egos and with good reason. People would be coming to the arena with Lebron’s name taped to the back up their Jordan 23 Wizards jerseys.
If we make a hard push, I believe we could be really attractive to Lebron. Have Leonsis take him to lunch with Dan Snyder and the Lerners. He would have the opportunity to have Obama come see him play regularly and build a relationship there. He’s already said that DC is one of his top 5 cities. He always does it big when he comes to DC.
All we’d have to do is make cap space and move Stevenson.
b/c
the argument for him going to LA (Clippers) or NY/NJ is that his 50 bajillion endorsement kicks in from Nike.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Because I don't want to root for him, plus ...
Why would he want to come to DC over NJN?
The nets have TONS of cap room and lots of great young players (Lopez and Harris mainly and Lee and CDR secondarily).
by Manimal Smith on Dec 7, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
We would provide the best of both worlds
Nets and Knicks have cap room, but not enough to sign Lebron and another star. There lack of talent basically means Lebron would choose that money over the chance to win rings. Clippers would only have cap room if they could move Baron Davis or Kaman. If they move Baron Davis, they’d be in the same boat as the Knicks and Nets. Kaman has three years and about $35 million on his contract. He’s not good enough to move in today’s climate considering the economy and approaching free agent class.
As I stated, he wouldn’t get the Nike bonus if he comes here, but the relationships he could build in DC would be amazing. And we have more talent to offer than those other teams. The Knicks don’t even have a draft pick in this strong draft class. If LA made the cap room, Blake Griffin would be the best player on their roster.
If we dump Caron and Jamison, we’ll have as much cap room as NY or NJ. But we’ll already have Arenas, Blatche and McGee. Lebron knows Gil’s talent level. Blatche is breaking out. McGee has flashed one of the highest potential ceilings in the league. Maybe we don’t get him, but we could make a really appealing case.
I guess we disagree
I think that both Lopez and Harris are potential stars and at least one of them is going to be a star. That, along with the market, is a much more attractive package than Gilbert and cap room.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 7, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
If LeBron doesn't stay in Cleveland
He’ll go play with D-Wade in Miami….
- Florida has no personal income tax…
- Warm weather.
- LeBron and Wade really bonded in the Olympics – and love playing together. (As does Chris Bosh)
- Miami is a Playoff team with a Superstar, just lacking another star to make them a Champion…
- The Heat will only have $26 Million committed to next year (Most of that is Wade’s salary) – so even if the Salary Cap is only $50 Million they can afford a Max contract (LeBron), and another big FA signing (Haywood?. Mike Miller?. Tracy McGrady? Marcus Camby?, Nate Robinson; Drew Gooden, David Lee)….
- If the Cap is significantly higher than $50 Million, they may be able to afford TWO max contracts – and still re-sign Wade the year after to a max contract. (Wade, LeBron and …. take your pick: Chris Bosh, Yao Ming , Dirk Nowitzki, Amare Stoudemire, Carlos Boozer)
- The Heat have some talent in Beasley and Mario Chalmers locked into Rookie deals.
- The Heat have TWO first round draft picks in the 2010 Draft.
- Pat Riley is the Heat’s President and GM (the man practically invented the phrase “Three-peat”)
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
but no Nike bonus
so I would not be surprised to see the Clippers as a darkhorse, if he leaves Cleveland, which I doubt.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
I could definitely see LeBron going to Miami
I still think he stays in Cleveland to create his own legacy, but Miami probably has a better shot than the Knicks.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
the only way blowing up the team works
is if Gil starts playing better. Who wants to come play for the Wiz if Gil is going to be out starting PG for the next 4 years and gimping around? If gil starts playing better, it will most likely help caron play better, and jamison is already playing well. If everyone is playing well, then we dont blow the team up and start over. So, either way I just dont see it happening. Either gil sucks, and we blow the team up, but no star wants to come play for us, or Gil turns it around and we are competitive and we dont blow the team up
I'll think of some Arenas and Antawn deals
I think Antawn isn’t actually a lost cause to trade. Teams would trade him.
This isn’t Caron’s fault, but I really don’t see much reason for him to have been so bad this year unless he is hiding an injury
Of those ideas I like the Igoudala idea the best, but I don’t see them taking Stevenson – will probably have to be a more appealing guy to match salary.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 6, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
Trade for*
and I agree that this couldn’t be a salary dump. Caron is way too valuable for that.
Gilbert – I would salary dump at this point.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 6, 2009 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
Not me. I’m not prepared to hand this team over to Caron and Antawn.
I feel like if you salary dump Arenas, you have to salary dump Caron and Antawn too and just completely blow it up.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I agree with Mike on this one
I don’t think you would get fifty cents on the dollar for Arenas at this point. Caron is the player who could leverage the most return.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Are you really ready
to go back to pre-gilbert bullets/Wizards basketball? Really ask that question reeeeaalllll slow on a sober mind. Kwame Brown, Mitch Richmond, Otis Thorpe. I can go on we sucked for a long time. This teams needs more time before we discuss all these hopeful trade rumors.
I'm getting there
If we have a real option to dump Gilbert for something we can build with and salary relief I think I’d do it.
We have this year and 4 more with him and if he is never going to get it back then our ceiling is a 1st round playoff win (which, at this point, looks generous). His contract is so bad that if we could get rid of it it would actually make the future brighter.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 7, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions
per the SAC or PHI trade
I would assume that would be the first of two trade and you would then look to flip Young, Miller, or Foye for more frontcourt?
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Let's dart board these scenarios.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
The Gerald Wallace + Andre Iguodala trades are interesting ideas. I think they’d help improve the team. Defensive minded players that could seal up the wing defense.
by NBR on Dec 7, 2009 8:01 AM EST up reply actions
Nice list to evaluate
My reactions in italics.
-Butler and Stevenson to Charlotte for Gerald Wallace and Flip Murray: Gives us a more defensive-minded guy, albeit one with a long contract. Stevenson for Murray gives us slight cap relief.
Absolutely. No way Charlotte does this though.
-Butler, Stevenson and Crittenton to the Clippers for Marcus Camby, Rasual Butler and Sebastian Telfair. Clippers get a small forward upgrade, we cut some money and get a solid vet in Camby and a point guard in Telfair.
Pretty much a salary dump, but I’d take it if it’s the best we can do. This could actually happen.
-Butler and Crittenton to Milwaukee for Luke Ridnour, Kurt Thomas and Luc Richard Mbah a Moute – We get a good backup PG in Ridnour, a solid vet in Thomas and a young prospect in Mbah a Moute while cutting money, while Milwaukee gets more scoring.
Interesting. Another dump, but we get Mbah a Moute, who might be good on this team, for less than $1M next year.
-Butler and Stevenson to Minnesota for Brian Cardinal, Ramon Sessions and Corey Brewer – I don’t like Brewer’s game much, but I love Sessions and Cardinal is expiring.
You had me at “and Stevenson”. I like this one.
-Butler and Stevenson to New Orleans for Morris Peterson, Darius Songaila and Darren Collison. Actually, this trade sucks. Forget it.
I agree. Forgotten.
-Buler and Stevenson to Philadelphia for Andre Iguodala – Eddie Jordan probably wants a guy who can play in the Princeton, and Iguodala is an excellent defender and great in transition. Basically, trade two guys who don’t fit in the new styles of their coach.
Sure. I’d be prepared to be laughed at, but I’d make the call.
-Butler and Foye to Sacramento for Kevin Martin and Sergio Rodriguez. Sacramento cuts long-term money and gets a SF upgrade, while we get a SG who better fits the offensive system.
Ewwww. Haven’t you had enough of our stars being injured all the time?
Not sure OKC needs Butler when they already have KD, Green and Harden on the wing
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
you're right
I always forget Durant is a SF when he plays like a SG.
Nix that one
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
There seems to be a big void in production...
coming from the SF position, so If I had to make any moves, I would start there.
at this point
(and I can’t believe I’m saying this) but make a trade and let Young play SG, switching with McGuire for defensive purposes.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Miller's return helps there
He plays SF pretty well.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Or more drastic
Caron and McGee for John Salmons and Tyrus Thomas.
Two teams looking for a shake up
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Most of these have been discussed at RealGM
My favorites are:
- Butler for G.Wallace, straight up. (I don’t think they’d take Stevenson, and I’d do it without him)
- Butler to Portland for Batum, Blake and Outlaw. This would be a huge cap savings for us. Batum is a freakishly long athlete who can defend and hit the 3. He costs just $1.1M and he turns 21 next week.
- Butler + Crittenton + 1st round pick for Iggy. Both players are better fits for the other team. I don’t think Philly trades Iggy for Butler straight up because of the age difference. but with this much incentive, they might do it.
- Butler + Stevenson to Houston for Battier + Lowry + Cook. Prada mentioned this above. I think this would be the best trade under a “win now” plan. Battier and Lowry are perfect fits on this roster. That said, Battier has lost a step and Lowry is an unrestricted FA this summer. Two years from now, we’ll look back and say we gave Butler away from nothing.
- Butler + Stevenson for Deng. I’m so-so on this. Deng is a catch-and-shoot kind of guy so he’s a better fit, but he lacks 3-point range. And I’m not sure his defense is any better than Butler’s right now. Also his contract is more expensive. On the upside, he is only 24.
- Butler to Milwaukee for Ridnoir, Mbah, KT and an unprotected pick. The unprotected pick is key here. I wouldn’t do this trade for just Mbah and cap relief. I don’t really like this one but it’s still better than doing nothing.
The sad part is that the two first trades (Charlotte and Portland) looked very doable about three weeks ago. At that time, Charlotte was struggling and Portland was looking to make one last veteran acquisition to become a contender. Unfortunately, Charlotte is now on a roll and probably isn’t looking to trade Wallace. And Portland just lost Oden for the season and will probably hold off on trading their youth for win-now vets.
Last one
Butler for Okur straight up. Okur seems like he would be a good fit in Flip’s jump shooting system.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Haywood is much better than Okur
Okur would be a nice fit as a jumpshooter, but Haywood is the only reason our defense is respectable rather than awful. Replace Haywood with Okur and we’d rank 29th in defense (behind only the lowly Raptors).
I wouldn't play Okur starting at C
I would have him play PF and slide AJ over to the SF
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Okur can't defend PF's
I’m open to moving Jamison to SF, but I’d simply start Blatche at PF. Blatche has turned the corner. He’s a legit starting-caliber big man right now. Flip needs to get him on the floor more.
I think Caron for a good PG would be best
Then when Miller gets back our lineup could be
PG-?
SG- Gilbert
SF- Miller
PF- Jamison
C- Haywood
Also that way Gil can get back to catching and shooting which is what he is best at. What do you guys think, and who’s a good PG we could get? I haven’t seen him play enough real basketball, and i think he shoots to much for our lineup, but what about something involving Nate Robinson? The Knicks are unhappy with him right.
sorry didn't mean to sound too sarcastic
I think Nate is like Earl, except you multiply Earl’s flaws by 1000000000
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Robinson is basically a Boykins clone
No point in doing that one. We’d be giving away Butler for no discernible improvement. Ultrashort PG’s are fools gold anyhow. You can’t play them full time because they’re defensive liabilities.
We are wedding to Gil at PG for now, I’m afraid. We’re just going to have to wait for him to figure things out mentally while also developing more confidence in his knee. We can’t afford to sacrifice an asset like Butler to acquire another big money PG.
My guess is that Arenas will be a much better player by next year. If he doesn’t become the pure PG we need, he’ll at least be more movable.
Arenas will never be a pure PG
Not in his DNA. But as a 20 points and 6 assists guy, you take that. Problem is, Washington doesn’t really have any pure point guards, the closest is maybe Crittenton. Foye is more of a scorer, Boykins is more of a scorer, James is more of a scorer. On one hand, since everyone can pass, the team is awesome when everyone is firing on all cylinders. On the other hand, Washington does not always pass first (except maybe Oberto; I miss the Haywood, Oberto, Jamison frontcourt).
by GvP on Dec 7, 2009 5:59 AM EST up reply actions
True, I'm just throwing it out there
But Nate doesn’t play like a little PG, he’s a legit scorer, i just don’t now about his passing
You guys are right...
yeah, he wouldn’t help the team. How about Andre Miller. Now that Oden is out, they would probably be for giving him away for Caron and a young guy for next season when Oden comes back. Again haven’t seen enough of Andre to know how he would fit in this offense, what do you guys think?
I don't the problem is at PG
as nate pointed out, we are wedded to Gil at this point for better or for worse. What we need is a slasher like Iggy who has a midrange game that can operate in Flip’s system or a jack of all trades like Wallace who compensates greatly on broken plays.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Butler and McGee
for Howard and Beubois
I know I will get roasted on that one, but it will give everyone the PG they want….
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Hmm...
Howard’s expiring, and Dallas could use another big…
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
those were along the line that I was thinking
I also think that Beubois is really exciting. Though he is already a fan favorite in Dallas….
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Take out McGee
Howard has been on the block all season. Butler has more value than him. Butler alone for Howard plus Beubois is worthy of consideration.
That said, I think we’re set at SG. Nick Young has shown some tremendous defensive ability over the past 7 games. He’s the best one-on-one perimeter defender on the team right now (though he still has room to grow when dealing with screens and help defense).
I think
Foye played great defense tonight and seems lest prone to lapses than Young. Though Young has improved greatly.
I think you need the big to make Dallas bite.
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
fair enough
Dallas was one our rumored trade partners before the draft and if the #5 and Butler were not enough for either Howard or Terry, they might be a lost cause…..
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
Agreed, not enough
McGee has more value than Beaubois. Butler alone should be able to fetch that kinda package. Include Javaris for salary matching.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 7, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
Thats true
And Iggy’s penetrating is a perfect mix to balance the outside shooting of Gil, Miller, and Jamison. Any chance of that actually happening?
If we pursued a straight salary dump
and wanted to target a team that wanted to make a play for one of the Big FA’s
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
sorry
you could trade Stevenson and James for Thomas and Salmons. It doesn’t move Caron on so its kinda off topic, but it might do bit for the team
Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!
That would be pretty interesting, but there are only so many minutes
We’d be the deepest 5 seed in the history of the NBA, but it wouldn’t really solve our problems.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 7, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
Can we somehow ...
Throw in Mike James for Jermain Taylor and a big bag of money?
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
Every one is lambasting Caron
but he put up a 20/10 against the pistons. It was Gil that scored less than half of his average. This team all hinges on Gil and not us nabbing a slasher/jump shooter/premiter defender/back up point guard by trading Caron. It solves nothing unless whomever we bring over in a trade also brings Gils missing game as well.
Gil's not going anywhere regardless
The idea is that this roster isn’t working and, realistically, Caron’s the guy with the most trade value. We’re pretty much stuck hoping Gil gets it together. Nobody’s touching him.
The argument here is also that having more role players helps Gilbert because it encourages him to be more aggressive, instead of having to sacrifice shots so Caron can get his.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Kevin Martin
Would be a truly interesting piece to acquire.
He is a no-defense guy but he would be a huge offensive upgrade over Butler and Sac would do it to dump salary.
I’m still pondering my own ideas and will post some later.
As we've seen, health matters
Martin has only started more than 57 games once in his career and has a big, long contract. I wouldn’t touch him with a 10-foot pole.
This is Prada's from the other thread with my twist
How about
Caron + Deshawn for Andre Miller, Rudy Fernandez, Outlaw (who is injured and expiring, but would be a great piece to keep) and either Patty Mills or a second round draft pick. Obviously we’d have to do something about the roster to absorb a 2 for 4.
Andre Miller would be a good fit for us, Rudy Fernandez is really underutilized and still on a rookie deal there and Outlaw is a tremendous talent who might be retained on the cheap in the off season. Patty Mills gives us another PG prospect to replace Javaris and the second round pick gives us another $2.5mil if we don’t want that :P
All everything I read I like Battier best
Mike Miller and Shane Battier are winners that come to play every night. Can’t have too many. As far as being a good fit in the system…I don’t know. I like Caron, but something needs to change before this season becomes a wash.
I would love
to get Gerald Wallace. That would solve 2 problems.
1) it gives us the defender/slasher we need.
2) it keeps him from killing us everytime we play him.
After that, I like the Iguodala trade. He’s got a great all around game, and could mesh well with our players. As a bonus, he could be the best option at stopping slowing Lebron – he has the length/size to guard him, plus he will make him work on the defensive end.
Gerald Wallace + Wizards Training Staff = Fail
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
If the Wizards decide to rebuild
Would it be better to make a deal first because there will be a long line of teams trying to do that. Is there any hope that this team (with a new owner) tries to make a big splash and take a run at Chris Bosh if it becomes clear he isn’t staying in Toronto.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Dec 7, 2009 9:42 AM EST reply actions
They can only "make a run" at him if they trade for him this season
No cap room next summer.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Well that is what I mean
If Chris Bosh says to Toronto, I am not staying and the Raps decide to deal him to get something for him. Maybe the Wizards take a run at acquiring him at the deadline.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on Dec 7, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Youth
I’m normally not in favor of trading guys, and especially after 20 games with a new coach. But there is one reason why, in my mind, the Wiz need to consider trading Butler: Mike Miller. At the end of the season, they will need to decide whether to resign Miller. Can they really resign Miller to a sizable contract if Butler remains on the roster, since Miller’s best position is likely SF? They can wait on that decision, but it’s always better to pull the trigger earlier rather than later. And it’s quite possible, even without factoring in Butler’s sizable trade value, that Miller is a better fit with Jamison, Haywood and Arenas than the Butler of recent years is.
As for what to look for in a trade, I’d like to see a younger player added to the roster. Grunfeld traded the #5 pick for veterans this summer, and that has proven to be a big mistake. Go the other way now. Trading Butler to a team that wants to win now will be easier anyway.
by disgrunted on Dec 7, 2009 11:09 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
I also am starting to think that Mike Miller would be better to retain for next season than Caron Butler. And to think I once said that I thought Caron had surpassed Gilbert as our franchise player. What have you done for me lately, Caron?
Seriously, though, something’s got to give. Caron has played like crap for most of the season, but still has the easiest salary to move. Mike Miller, on the other hand, was proving himself to be Mr. Underrated before he went down.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
Here is a Philly idea that seems more plausible than Prada's (well somewhat)
I just don’t think that Philly is going to get rid of Igoudala without getting rid of a bad contract.
How about this:
Buter + Haywood + Stevenson for Igoudala and Dalembert
EJ loves Butler and he is more of the offensive player that that team needs, but most importantly they get to shed Dalembert’s contract and take back another great defensive center.
The Wiz would do this because we’d also get to shed Deshawn’s contract.
The real wrench in the works for this is that I don’t know that EJ would welcome Brendan (and vice versa) given their relationship. So we could also do something like:
Butler + Deshawn + Mike James for Igoudala and Dalembert.
I don’t know that philly does that deal though because they get a valueless expiring in James instead of a defensive stopper
If we trade Butler for Iggy
I would consider it a reloading move, not a rebuilding move. We would still have enough veteran talent to seriously try to win now. In that scenario, I definitely want Haywood to stick around.
(More importantly, Haywood doesn’t want to play with EJ and Philly knows this. They wouldn’t trade for him when they know he’d leave in the summer.)
I would only trade Haywood as part of a complete rebuilding plan in which we trade Butler for expirings plus youth/picks and we trade Jamison for expirings.
It would be reloading
I’d consider it a mighty upgrade really. The question is if taking Dalembert back is enough and, if so, what move we make after that.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 7, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
Hey- let's deal Caron for a damaged goods power forward!
Butler + Stevenson for Brand: (consensus seems to be this is undervaluing Caron)
Butler + Blatche for Al Jefferson (maybe overvaluing Caron?)
Butler + 1st round pick for Amare(s): allegedly we turned this down in favor of Miller and Foye (wow, that’s really worked out well)… and wouldn’t it be funny if our 2010 #1 turned out to be a better player than Rubio.
oops that should be Butler + 1st round pick(s) for Amare… although more than one Amare would probably increase the chances that one of them would resign with us…
by goober nackulum on Dec 7, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
oops that should be Butler + 1st round pick(s) for Amare… although more than one Amare would probably increase the chances that one of them would resign with us…
by goober nackulum on Dec 7, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
i still
don’t see what good trading anyone does if gil, our franchise player, isn’t playing like a franchise player. there are a long list of problems with the team right now, but let’s not avert our eyes from the fact that gil is #1 on the list. (you may not respect me saying it, but hopefully you respect dwyer saying it.)
i mean, i like the boykins pick-up, and he’s squeezed out a couple games for us while we’re struggling, but until we get to a point where gil is the best player on the court and is our go to guy, i don’t think it makes any difference whatsoever what we do.
flip needs to figure this out. he can’t hide from it behind boykins.
so dream all you want about acquiring amare or igoudala, but if gil isn’t getting it done…
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 7, 2009 7:39 PM EST reply actions
to be consistent
i respect the idea of trading people to deal with the looming money issue, but i don’t see making a trade right now dramatically improving the team unless gil improves. if you’re wanting to make a fire sale right this minute, to me, that means you’re giving up on gil more than anything else.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 7, 2009 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
But what about the argument that trading Butler or someone else helps Gilbert?
Which is part of the rationale I have for trading Caron. It clarifies Gilbert’s role and surrounds him with two wings who can play off him (Miller and wing X/Young) and hopefully also gets another PG who can let Gilbert play off the ball sometimes.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
you really think
it’s up to EG to help gil at this juncture?! EG put together a roster that can win. this falls squarely on flip and the players.
you can always improve a roster, but that IS NOT the problem right now.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 8, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree
The roster construction is part of the problem. The whole problem? Probably not, but there are literally two good role players on this roster. Everyone else thinks score-first. That’s a major roster construction issue.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
two of our best guys are glue guys
miller and haywood.
i see your point, but it’s not the difference between a 30 win team and a 50 win team.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 8, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree
Again, you have eight guys on the team who have career usage rates north of 20%. That’s bad. There are only so many shots to go around. It’s proven hard for Flip to institute a share-the-ball offense when so many guys play best when they get shots.
Miller and Haywood are the only glue guys on the team. You need more than that to win. (They’re good precisely because they’re glue guys, they aren’t good AND glue guys). I point again to the case of Houston, who has two guys with career USG%s over 20 (Brooks and Landry) and are still winning. They have guys who actually do the little things, not guys who look like they do. They have perimeter defenders. We have to ask Caron Butler to be a perimeter defender when he hasn’t been his entire career. They have role-playing guards off the bench who get the ball to shooters and play defense. We have Earl Boykins, who always dribbles around and shoots and is too short to be a stopper.
How much of a difference does it make? I don’t know if you can put a win total on it. 20 wins, it certainly ain’t. But I can’t understand how anyone could say that’s not playing any role at all in our team’s struggles.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Dec 8, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
the defense isn't the problem right now
so why are you mentioning caron as a wing defender being an issue?
i don’t think guys playing roles is going to help us run an effective offense. it’s not the problem.
again, i’m not saying the roster couldn’t be better, but this roster can win. definitely. no question.
(assuming gil gets it together)
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 8, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
i said this poorly
i don’t think guys playing roles is going to help us run an effective offense. it’s not the problem.
guys obviously have to play roles. i meant to say bringing in role players isn’t the first solution we should look to. flip has plenty at his disposal in terms of getting this team to score the ball, it’s just not happening effectively. whether that’s his fault or whether the guys aren’t doing their jobs… either way, not EG’s fault. not THIS level of performance.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 8, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
I have to say I really respect this school of thought
Its pretty much Gil or bust. Plus Caron is looking much more comfortable in the role flip has for him as the season moves on. He has spent the last two years as the man on this team with Antawn so you can expect there to be a roughing in period for him as well. This teams problem is Gilbert. Anything else is superfluous.
There's too much one on one ball going on.
Usually our most productive stretches have been when he have 2 ball handlers on the court at the same time. We need guys who can move without the ball and facilitate. I’m looking forward to see what impact javaris crittenton will have with our second unit. We still need somebody on the wing though, unless flip can groom taser into having productive playing time game in and game out.
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