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Pregame discussion: Who deserves what percentage of the blame pie?

As a precursor to tonight's game thread for the Memphis game, I wanted to gage the community's opinion on who is to blame for the Wizards' slow start.

Let's assume that you have a pie that you need to split three ways.  The three sections must accurately mirror who you believe deserves blame for the situation (i.e. the players get 50% of the pie because they are 50% to blame for the situation).  Let's say that the party in question needs to eat the entire section of the pie they get (I know this is a bit counterintuitive - it would seem you'd want more of the pie than less - but let's assume that the portions are so large that if someone were to eat them, they would feel sick).  

What percentage of the blame pie do you give to the following parties:

  • The players
  • Flip Saunders and the coaching staff
  • Management (I won't say Ernie Grunfeld exclusively because it's possible multiple people are making the decisions behind the scenes)
Is this exercise a little convoluted?  Probably.  But I'm really curious to hear everyone's thoughts on this.  

0 recs  |  Comment 31 comments

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I think

This is mainly all the players fault. Flip has a good offensive scheme and a decent defensive scheme all the players have to do is execute it and it will work as proven in the past. Ernie and the rest of management have put together a team with tons of talent but the players just lack the willingness to trust the system and trust each other on offense and defense and to do the little things on the court.

This team could work and would work if everybody bought in to Flip’s offense and defense/rebounding in general. The players on this roster have the ability to do everything we want them to but most of them just want to be “the man” too much to actually get it done, therefore this team is likely to get blown up.

by lj15 on Dec 28, 2009 12:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

You are too kind to Flip by at least half Mike...

50% players, 25% management, 25% Flip… The important thing here is that the BLAME PIE is EFFING HUGE… So no matter what the percentages, the portions are quite large.

A win in Memphis tonight (fat chance!) would help a bit, but I don’t think anything will ever remove the awful taste of either the Minnesota game or, most of all, the last loss at home to Indiana.

by khrabb on Dec 28, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with 80 percent players

In Washington Sports, we have to deal with dysfunction all the time. I don’t think that Gilbert and Antawn deserved those contracts, but Ernie put together a good team and the players have fallen flat. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

90 percent players, 8 percent Ernie, 2 percent Flip.

by Unselds on Dec 28, 2009 1:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

60% players, 25% Flip, 15% management

The hardest part here is where does the coaching end, and the players begin? I know that doesnt make a whole lot of sense, but let me explain. It is really hard to tell how much is coming from the coaches, and how much the players are just not listening. For example, is rebounding not emphasized enough at practice/flim sessions, or are the players simply not listening? This goes for all the little things too, sharing the ball, rotating on D, etc.

As for management, they have put together a great roster in my opinion. Including guys who can do the dirty work (boxing out, setting picks, sticky man D). Deshawn has definately fallen off, but he was good at playing his role pre-back injury. Mcguire is criminally underused, and oberto cant do enough of anything else to be effective, leaving haywood trying to pick up all the slack from our stars and scorers.

Flip, I do not know how to judge at this point. I have some issues with his rotations, but i probably would no matter who was coaching if we are losing. Although if he cannot motivate our players to do everything necessary, that is a big problem (but like i said, its hard to tell whats happening behind the scenes)

by SidVicious25 on Dec 28, 2009 1:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

70%players, 20% mgmt, 10% Flip.

Ernie bet on everything on a roster that was once good 3 years ago, but didn’t account for other teams getting better. Still, the players with this much talent should at least be a .500 team. I’ve seen Flip throw out all sorts of lineups and schemes, anything to get the players going, but nothing works permanently. He’s been everything he advertised he’d be but the players aren’t responding. And don’t play the respect card, they are professionals, they ought to know better.

by Fundefined on Dec 28, 2009 1:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'm starting to question Flip...

50% Flip, 40% Players, 10% Management

Flip thinks way too highly of Earl Boykins. He needs to cut down his minutes because he dribbles too much and creates terrible mismatches on defense. Flip needs to stop trying to turn Gil into a true PG and let him do what got him to three all-star games (this is beginning to happen). Flip needs to play McGuire more often.

That being said, the players need to TRY HARDER and play with MORE PASSION. Jamison needs to stop chucking up terrible contested shots. Gil needs to cut down turnovers. CB needs to…play better in general.

Ernie put a lot of nice pieces together in the offseason. This roster is way too talented to have this record. That’s on Flip and the players. But if Flip is actually the problem, then it’s on management for hiring him.

by ajk3e on Dec 28, 2009 1:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

70% Players, 20% Flip, 10% Mgmt

I’ve been reading Simmons’ bball book and when I got to the part on what he calls “The Secret” I couldn’t help but think of the Wizards and how they either don’t get it or don’t care. I think as long as a coach isn’t asking anything unreasonable of the players on what type of offense or defense to run, the players should buy into it and do their best to make it work. Now while Flip is smashing square pegs in round holes on a few things (Arenas as a Billups PG, Boykins not running plays, etc) I think he’s not getting a good effort from the players. I really like our players, I like rooting for them, but sometimes I feel like they’ve become despondent and stuck in this weird self-pity mode b/c injuries keep hitting the team.

When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk - Tuco

by ravoriobulleterpitals on Dec 28, 2009 2:05 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Players should take the majority of the blame

You start to notice a trend when different coaches yield similar results. I think Flip is off the hook for the most part. The players seem to have a combination of low basketball IQ and high selfishness… that’s a bad mix, and the reason why I think they keep forgetting how to play the right way. You can see how frustrated Flip is getting. My only fault with him is that he doesn’t consistently bench players (including Arenas and Jamison) who routinely ignore his sets and instructions. I thought the 3rd quarter stunt he pulled a few games ago by benching the starters was great, but its sad that he needs to do that more. And yes, management gets a huge share of the blame for bringing in too many “me first” players who play the same kind of game. I’m going 70% players / 20% management / 10% coaching.

by Dr Spgs on Dec 28, 2009 2:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

on the other hand

You start to notice a trend when different coaches yield similar results.

i seem to remember EJ winning with a core of GA, DS, CB, AJ, BTH and AD, DS, CB, AJ, BTH. so you could say different coaches different results. i think drawing conclusions from last year is overlooking the 3 years previous to last year.

now if you were saying the group of MJ, NY, CB, AJ, AB suck not flip, then i’d definitely agree with you. but that’s not what we’re looking at this year

by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 28, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Should be split equally: 33% Players, 33% Flip, 33% Management

Many of you fellas looks like you’re giving Flip a pass but I disagree.

Yes, Flip is a proven coach with a very good track record and he has a proven system that wins. But his inability to successfully adapt his system or his decision making to fit the personnel of this team has been very troubling.

Flip cannot just instill hunger on the players and instill offensive and defensive discipline overnight and he cannot undo years of bad habits on both sides of the ball. However, he can bench players who are unproductive and that is one of his best weapons as a coach, but he’s only shown flashes this year of using this as a real weapon (the Philly game where he subbed out all the starters is obviously the best example).

Flip has overplayed DeShawn Stevenson and Boykins. I think at times he even overplays Jamison and Caron when those guys don’t have anything going. My opinion is that our coaching staff needs to find a better balance of playing offensive guys with defensive / glue guys, and they need to find a better balance of playing veterans and giving some developmental minutes to younger players like McGuire and McGee.

by formula0 on Dec 28, 2009 2:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

70% players, 20% Flip, 10% management

I can’t blame management too much for Gil or Antawn’s contracts, because there were competing offers at around the same amounts. We didn’t overpay them, the question was whether or not to let them walk. Is this team better/in a better place without them? I just don’t really think so. Sure, it makes rebuilding harder, but this oughta be a 50-win team one piece away from contention.

Flip gets some of the blame because, well, he’s schemes ain’t working so well. I know they’ve worked elsewhere, but with this lineup, something isn’t right.

The rest is on the players. Lack of heart, lack of passion, lack of hustle, lack of Caron playing how he’s supposed to play, lack of Gil recovering to form night-in, night-out, lack of role players playing their roles.

by sierradave on Dec 28, 2009 2:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

50% management, 40% players, 10% Flip

While it’s somewhat inane to make the argument that management is all at fault because they brought Flip and the players together, that’s really kind of how it is, isn’t it? But I don’t want to “blame” anyone; this team was built to win now, while Abe was alive, and just isn’t doing it. I don’t hold Ernie accountable necessarily for that because I think he was working on Abe’s wishes to an extent, but it doesn’t matter. With Leonsis coming on board having wild success rebuilding a team, the writing is on the wall here. We’d better prepare for a couple lottery-bound seasons. Too bad we’re too good for John Wall.

by bronco6778 on Dec 28, 2009 2:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Wish I said it that articulately.

by Unselds on Dec 28, 2009 3:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

100% mgmt

because ernie fired EJ and brought in flip and now we suck. if EJ was coaching this team we’d be all offense and bad habits and no defense and gambling all the time and caron and AJ would be good and gil would do his thing and we’d be 15-13 and having fun and looking forward to adding even more firepower in miller.

and just think how much fun that would be.

by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 28, 2009 4:26 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

50% players, 50% management

Lets not forget, we won 19 games last year and Flip was nowhere to be found. Granted Arenas is back, but his production has been so inconsistent it’s hard to gauge where he is at.

Throwing that kind of sick money at a shoot-first point guard coming off back-to-back knee surgeries is mind numbing to me. Now we are handicapped with that contract because no one will touch it with a ten-foot pole. Thats why I dole out 50% over to management.

I think Flip (for the most part) is doing what he can. I would like to see Nick Young become a permanent fixture in the starting rotation.

by KissMyButler! on Dec 28, 2009 4:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

arenas, haywood, foye, miller, oberto

and even boykins, are all new additions this year, not just arenas. flip wouldn’t have won squat last year, so what’s the point of bringing it up to defend the guy?

by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 28, 2009 9:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

50% management, 30% players, 20% coaching

A few weeks ago I would have given the coaching a smaller slice, but I’m really starting to think that Flip and co. were far too naive in thinking that they could transform Gilbert into a pure point guard and eliminate the team’s bad habits overnight.

Bullets Forever: A blog dedicated to the Washington Wizards with analysis, commentary, and more YouTube videos than your eyes can handle.

by JakeTheSnake on Dec 28, 2009 5:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'm torn here

On the one hand, our general predicament is management’s fault. This team was not built with a championship formula. Rather, it was built on the hope that 100% health would make a decent team into a contender and that, at the very least, the same core that finally made Les Bullets watchable again would continue to be a middle of the pack playoff team that would sell tickets. The reason we don’t have a prayer of winning a championship is the management’s short sightedness and contentment with mediocrity.

On the other hand, its the players’ fault that we are completely terrible. This team is talented and, on paper, fairly deep. Despite good seasons by Haywood and Blatche, no one else is really playing a team game. Foye has regressed completely, Butler has become a gunner, and Antawn has started jacking 3s and looking for his stats instead of leading our team. I can’t really blame Gil here that much – he is working his way back and he really shouldn’t be asked to do as much as he is when we have 2 other all stars and 4 other really high quality players on the roster (on paper Haywood, Blatche, Miller, Foye look like a really competent supporting cast for a core of 3 all stars). We should be slightly above 500 with delusional hopes that Miller’s return will herald a rise to the #4 spot in the east, but instead we are languishing as one of the league’s crappiest teams. That is 100% of the players.

I don’t think Flip has done a good job getting the most out of a poorly constructed roster, but I am going to give him a pass here. What I think we have seen is what happens when you try to employ a concept that only works with team play, ball movement and unselfishness when all of the player’s are selfish (and your best player is coming off 2 years on the rack). I think Flip’s system has exposed how poorly constructed our team is and how selfish its players are; I don’t think that our team has exposed how crappy Flip’s system is.

by Manimal Smith on Dec 28, 2009 6:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

80% coaching, 20% players, 0% management

Flip misjudged the situation from day one and set the wrong expectations, and didn’t even have everybody on the same page in terms of expectations. He insisted that Arenas was the leader, but this leader wouldn’t commit to anything (rightly so).

To this day, the expectations are out of whack and not shared. Everything flows from there. No legit plan, and whatever the plan is, no buy-in.

by Izman on Dec 28, 2009 6:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

You really think that Flip

Has turned a group of all stars into a disfunctional me-first mess?

Flip hasn’t been perfect (see his decision to ride Deshawn when Deshawn had alreadya amply demonstrated that he was done) and you can blame him for some of the team’s struggles, but no one can seriously entertain the idea that changing Flip for another coach would have us at 20-8 instead of 10-18.

At some point the players have to execute. Our guys have crapped the bed.

by Manimal Smith on Dec 28, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you really think that flip

has nothing to do with the dysfunction on the court right now? i mean, that’s kind of his primary responsibility isn’t it? i don’t think deshawn’s level of ability is the only thing flip has misjudged this year.

a better argument,. imo, is that (1) what flip is doing will make the guys we have better in the long run, or, alternatively, that (2) in order to win a championship you have to play along the lines flip wants the guys to play, but the guys we have aren’t capable of doing it.

those arguments hold weight with me. but as for (1) i think that’s questionable and is looking less likely with each passing week. as for (2) did ernie really bring flip in to find that out?!?!?!?! NO WAY that was the plan.

by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 28, 2009 9:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He isn't blameless at all

But he is the least guilty party of the three. Ernie brought him in knowing that Flip would institute a new system. If the system didn’t fit the players, then its Ernie’s fault.

On the other hand, if the system fit the players (remember all of the preseason discussion about how it seemed like a good fit because we are a mid range jump shooting team) and the players find themselves unable to execute it anyway then its the players fault.

There is no doubt that Flip has made some bad lineup choices (Deshawn, over reliance on Boykins, not giving Young and McGuire fair shakes), but he isn’t the reason that our guys suck right now.

by Manimal Smith on Dec 28, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you're arguing

the system fits the players by assuming the system fits the players (because people on bullets forever thought it would in the offseason). i’m not so sure. i could be wrong, but i’m not so sure. early returns are very very bad.

But he is the least guilty party of the three. Ernie brought him in knowing that Flip would institute a new system. If the system didn’t fit the players, then its Ernie’s fault.

agree 100%

by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 28, 2009 10:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

50% lineup selection 50% players

by Unxpekted on Dec 28, 2009 7:24 PM EST via mobile reply actions   0 recs

Most of their problems come from a lack of intensity

You can blame Flip for not yelling or you can blame the players for being unmotivated. To me, it’s a chicken or the egg situation. Grunfeld could have combined a few mediocre guys with expirers to bring in an actual above average player, but we’re actually in a good place long term other than the Gil contract, so I’m not mad at him.

by pantslessyoda1 on Dec 28, 2009 8:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

10% Ernie, 60% Management, 30% players

One of the real issues is the culture and coaching that occurred while Eddie Jordan was here. Eddie was a decent coach, but he was not a disciplinarian and his inability to rein in the team led to his dismissal.

The players however need to be responsible especially the veterans who have been here.

Finally, what was Ernie thinking with the 111 million dollar contract. Arenas has great potential, but he is an incomplete player with a below average supporting cast. He needs to actually play some defense.

by Aquamaneastfish on Dec 29, 2009 9:50 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Management 60%, Players 25%, Flip 15%

I don’t want to say something terrible about our late owner, but you wonder if Ernie wasn’t allowed to trade Jamison when he was an expiring contract or if Ernie was told, resign Gilbert injury be damned.

Where did this I am going to get mine attitude come from? Was it always there and I didn’t see it or has this sprung up out of nowhere? It seems the Wizards are the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

At this point, I would rather see McGee, Blatche and Young, McGuire play more and most of the other players play less.

"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck

by George Templeton on Dec 29, 2009 10:27 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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